>>> AND, AS U.S.

VOTERS GEAR UP FOR THE ELECTION IN AN INCREASINGLY DIVIDED COUNTRY, THE MERGING OF FAITH AND POLITICAL IDENTITY OFTEN CONTRIBUTES TO FURTHER POLARIZATION.

IT'S SOMETHING OUR NEXT GUEST HAS EXPERIENCED.

DAVID FRENCH WAS RECENTLY DISMISSED FROM AN ENGAGEMENT FOR THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH IN AMERICA, AFTER FACING BACKLASH FOR HIS CRITICISM OF DONALD TRUMP.

HE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN NOW TO DISCUSS HIS LATEST ARTICLE, "THE DAY MY OLD CHURCH CANCELED ME WAS A VERY SAD DAY."

>> DAVID FRENCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> DAVID, JUST FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST DON'T KNOW YOUR SORT OF FULL BIOGRAPHY, I WOULD JUST LIKE TO ASK YOU TO START BY HOW YOU CAME TO IDENTIFY AS A CONSERVATIVE, AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU?

>> RIGHT.

WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M A COLD WAR KID.

I WAS BORN IN '69, I CAME OF AGE, REALLY POLITICALLY, IN THE REAGAN ERA, AND I CAME OF AGE SORT OF AS THAT REAGAN REPUBLICAN COLD WAR CONSERVATIVE, MORE LIBERTARIAN LEANING IN MY OUTLOOK, VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN AMERICA'S GLOBAL ROLE, VERY IMMIGRANT-FRIENDLY, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, THE -- REAGAN WAS FAMOUS, A LOT OF PEOPLE FORGET THIS, ABOUT HIS LEGACY, THAT HE WAS FAMOUS FOR WELCOMING IMMIGRANTS AND SHOWING THAT THE ATTRACTION AND APPEAL THAT AMERICA HAD TO PEOPLE ABROAD WAS A SYMBOL OF, FOR EXAMPLE, OUR SUPERIORITY TO THE SOVIET SYSTEM.

SO, I REALLY CAME UP AS A REAGAN REPUBLICAN.

THAT WOULD BE MY STORY.

AND I'M ALSO EVANGELICAL.

I WAS RAISED IN THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH.

I WAS AN EVANGELICAL REAGAN REPUBLICAN AND FIT WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY CULTURALLY, AND WITHIN THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH, BASICALLY MY WHOLE ADULT LIFE, UNTIL JUNE OF 2015, WHEN DONALD TRUMP CAME DOWN THE ESCALATOR, WHO SIGNALED A BREAK FROM ALL KINDS OF REPUBLICAN TRADITIONS THAT I HAD APPRECIATED AND RESPECTED, NOT MERELY A BREAK WITH REAGAN IDEOLOGY, BUT ALSO A BREAK WITH REAGAN'S CHARACTER, IN ANY EMPHASIS ON PERSONAL CHARACTER AT ALL.

>> DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN IT IS THAT YOU STARTED TO SEE NOT JUST DONALD TRUMP AS A CANDIDATE, A FIGURE, BUSY EFFECT ON THE PARTY, THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT, ON THE WHOLE, DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU SAW THAT?

>> OH, I CAN GET IT DOWN TO THE MONTH.

SEPTEMBER OF 2015 IS WHEN I BEGAN TO SEE -- AND THERE WAS A REPUBLICAN DEBATE AT THAT TIME IN WHICH NOT JUST DONALD TRUMP, BUT ALSO SOME OF HIS FANS ONLINE, WERE ECHOING WHITE NATIONALIST ALT-RIGHT TALKING POINTS.

AND SO, I REMEMBER, I WAS WRITING AT THE TIME FOR "NATIONAL REVIEW" AND I REMEMBER WRITING JUST A VERY SHORT POST, WHERE I WAS CONDEMNING THESE WHITE NATIONALIST TALKING POINTS.

I WAS CONDEMNING THEIR PRESENCE AND SAYING THEY HAVE NOTHING -- THEY HAVE NO PLACE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THEY HAVE NO PLACE IN THE CONSERVATISM THAT I KNOW AND LOVE.

AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED NEXT WAS, WE RECEIVED A HURRICANE, JUST A HURRICANE OF ONLINE HARASSMENT DIRECTED AT ME, BUT FAR WORSE THAN THAT, DIRECTED AT MY YOUNGEST DAUGHTER, WHO, AT THE TIME, WAS 7 YEARS OLD, SHE WAS ADOPTED FROM ETHIOPIA.

AND THE RACIST ATTACKS ON HER WERE, A, DEEPLY DISTURBING, AND B, TERRIFYING IN SOME WAYS.

THEY WERE, YOU KNOW, AT ONE POINT, SOME PEOPLE PUT PICTURES OF MURDERED BLACK AMERICANS IN THE COMMENT SECTION OF MY WIFE'S BLOG, SHE WAS A WRITER FOR A RELIGIOUS WEBSITE AT THE TIME.

CLEARLY, YOU KNOW, CLEARLY THREATENING.

PHOTOSHOPPING PICTURE OFFICE MY DAUGHTER INTO GAS CHAMBERS ONLINE.

>> YEAH.

>> HORRIBLE STUFF, HORRIBLE STUFF.

AND SO, IT WAS DISTURBING, IT WAS TERRIFYING, AND WE TURNED, AS WE ALWAYS HAD, IN OUR HISTORY AND OUR LIVES, BACK TO OUR CHURCH COMMUNITY.

FOR SUPPORT AND COMFORT.

AND TO BE SURE, THERE WERE PASTORS WHO SUPPORTED US, THERE WERE CLOSE FRIENDS WHO SUPPORTED US.

BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN, FOR SOME PEOPLE, THE FACT THAT I HAD TURNED AGAINST DONALD TRUMP AND HAD CRITICIZED DONALD TRUMP WAS A BRIDGE TOO FAR FOR THEM, AND THEY TURNED ON US IN OUR OWN CHURCH.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT BEGAN IN 2015 AND JUST KEPT CONTINUING.

>> FOR SOME PEOPLE, POLITICS IS LIKE SPORTS.

YOU KNOW, THEY GO THERE TO YELL AT PEOPLE, RIGHT?

THEY GO THERE TO BOO AT PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOVE IT, YOU MIGHT THINK IT'S STUPID, EH, BUT -- CHURCH IS DIFFERENT.

SO, I'M JUST THINKING, WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

LIKE, WHAT HAPPENED?

>> I WILL JUST SPEAK PERSONALLY, I'LL SAY, I UNDERESTIMATED TWO THINGS WHEN I WAS THINKING THROUGH THE STATE OF REPUBLICAN POLITICS IN 2015 AND E VAN JELL KA POLITICS SPECIFICALLY IN 2015 AND 2016.

NUMBER ONE, I UNDERESTIMATED THE ANTIPATHY THAT EXISTED AGAINST DEMOCRAT.

HOW MUCH THERE WAS THIS RAW HATRED AND/OR FEAR OF DEMOCRATS ON THE PART OF SO MANY CHRISTIAN REPUBLICANS.

I -- EVEN THOUGH I WAS A REPUBLICAN -- I WAS A REPUBLICAN DELEGATE TO THE 2012 CONVENTION, A MITT ROMNEY DELEGATE.

I ALWAYS HAD CLOSE FRIENDS WHO WERE DEMOCRATS.

I NEVER SAW POLITICS AS THAT DEAL BREAKER ON MATTERS OF FAITH AND FRIENDSHIP.

I UNDERESTIMATED HOW MANY HAD REAL, RAW ANTIPATHY FOR DEMOCRATS.

AND HOW FUNDAMENTALIST THEY HAD BECOME.

AND BY THAT, I MEAN, THERE'S THIS ZONE OF ABSOLUTE RELIGIOUS CERTAINTY THEY HAD EXTENDED INTO POLITICS.

SO, IF YOU WERE NOT GOING TO SUPPORT THE REPUBLICAN STANDARD BEARER, THAT WAS NOT SEEN AS A MISTAKE, THAT WAS SEEN AS A SIGN OF DEPARTING FROM THE CHRISTIAN FAITH ITSELF.

AND THAT BLINDSIDED ME.

THAT TOOK ME TOTALLY BY SURPRISE, SO, IT'S THE COMBINATION OF ANTIPATHY AND RISING FUNDAMENTALISM THAT TIES THE POLITICS OF CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANITY TO THE FAITH ITSELF SO CLOSELY THAT I DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING, AND THAT'S WHAT BLINDSIDED ME, AND BOTH OF THOSE TRENDS HAVE ONLY GOTTEN WORSE IN THE ENSUING, YOU KNOW, EIGHT, NINE YEARS.

>> SO, THEN, YOU GO AND YOU'RE SCHEDULED TO SPEAK AT A -- AN EVEN BEING SPONSORED BY YOUR CHURCH, WHICH YOU HAVE LOVED, AND HAS LOVED YOU -- >> YEAH.

>> AND YOUR FAMILY.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> SO, WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT, MY WIFE AND I HAD BEEN MEMBERS OF A CHURCH CALLED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OF AMERICA FOR A LONG TIME, MORE THAN 15 YEARS, AND IT HAD BECOME -- UNFORTUNATELY, OVER THE COURSE OF TIGHT OR NINE YEARS OF THE TRUMP ERA, IT HAD BECOME NOT HOSPITABLE TO US.

NOW, AGAIN, NOT EVERYBODY.

OUR PASTORS WERE WITH US, CLOSE FRIENDS WERE WITH US, BUT WE KEPT HAVING DEEPLY DISTURBING CONFRONTATIONS AT CHURCH.

PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WOULD MAKE RACIST REMARKS, PEOPLE -- AN ELDER SAID TO ME ABOUT MY OWN WIFE, KEEP -- CAN'T YOU KEEP YOUR WIFE UNDER CONTROL ABOUT HER OPPOSITION TO TRUMP WHEN SHE WAS KIND OF -- WHEN THEY WERE HAVING A POST-CHURCH DISCUSSION, I WAS CONFRONTED AT COMMUNION TABLE BY SOMEBODY WHO WAS A TRUMP SUPPORTER, AND THIS IS JUST A VERY, VERY PARTIAL LIST OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

NOW, AGAIN, WHEN I SAY MY PASTORS KEPT SUPPORTING ME, THE CHURCH ACTUALLY TOOK DISCIPLINARY ACTION AGAINST THIS PERSON TO PREVENT THEM -- TO TRY TO PREVENT THEM FROM DOING THIS EVER AGAIN, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED IS, PEOPLE JUST KEPT CONFRONTING US.

AND EVEN THE MOST WELL-MEANING PASTORS COULD NOT SHIELD US FROM THE SENSE THAT IF WE'RE ARRIVING AT CHURCH, THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE, WHEN WE GET THERE, THAT SOMEBODY'S GOING TO CONFRONT ME OR MY WIFE OR ONE OF MY KIDS OVER DONALD TRUMP.

AND SO WE BEGAN ATTENDING A MULTIETHNIC CHURCH IN NASHVILLE THAT HAS NO TRACE OF THAT KIND OF MAGA CHRISTIANITY IN IT, BUT MY PRIOR DENOMINATION DID REACH OUT TO ME AND INVITE ME TO COME SPEAK AT A PANEL AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE DENOMINATION.

AND THE REASON WHY THEY REACHED OUT IS PRECISELY BECAUSE I HAD CONFRONTED SO MANY OPPONENTS, AND THERE HAD BEEN SO MANY PEOPLE AND THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THE DISCUSSION WAS FOR ME TO HELP PEOPLE NAVIGATE POLARIZED TIMES.

I'VE GOTTEN CRITICISM FROM LEFT AND RIGHT, AND WAS GOING TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ALWAYS GET CRITICISM FROM BOTH SIDES, ABOUT HOW TO NAVIGATE THAT.

>> RIGHT.

>> BUT THEN, AS SOON AS MY NAME WAS ANNOUNCED, THE REALLY HARD CORE MAGA WING OF THE DENOMINATION JUST ROSE IN OUTRAGE.

THEY PRINTED ARTICLES THAT WERE DEEPLY MISLEADING, YOU KNOW, TWEETED VICIOUS THINGS ABOUT ME, CALLING ME NAMES.

SOMEBODY EVEN WROTE A SILLY PARODY SONG INSULTING ME.

AND SO, THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW, THE DENOMINATION STARTS TO GET COLD FEET AND DECIDES TO CANCEL THE PANEL, AND THEN THEY ISSUE A STATEMENT, THROWING ME UNDER THE BUS, WHERE I -- AND OFFICIAL BASICALLY SAYS, WELL, HAD I KNOWN ABOUT DAVID FRENCH'S PRIOR WRITINGS, OR THE WAY PEOPLE HAD INTERPRETED HIM, THEN THE -- THE CLEAR IMPLICATION IS HE WAS NEVER HAVE ISSUED THE INVITATION.

BUT HAD HE KNOWN?

IT WAS NOT LIKE I KEPT MY OPINIONS UNDER A BUSHEL.

>> THEY SAID THE CONCERNS THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED ABOUT THE SEMINAR AND ITS TOPIC HAVE BEEN SO SIGNIFICANT THAT IT SEEMS WISEST FOR THE PEACE AND UNITY OF THE CHURCH NOT TO PROCEED IN THIS WAY.

HOW DO YOU -- WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, IT -- LET'S JUST BE REALLY CLEAR, WHEN THEY TALKED ABOUT PEACE AND UNITY.

PEOPLE GOT VERY ANGRY AND MADE PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST ME, THEY HAD PERSONAL ATTACK AGAINST MY WIFE, THEY PUBLISHED MISLEADING AND SOMETIMES OUTRIGHT FALSE THINGS ABOUT THE THINGS THAT I'VE WRITTEN AND THAT I'VE SAID.

THEY ENGAGED IN JUST THE MOST GROSS PERSONAL INSULTS.

AND THEN THEY TURNED AROUND, THE DENOMINATION TURNS AROUND AND SAYS, WELL, FOR PEACE AND FOR UNITY, WE HAVE TO YIELD TO THOSE PEOPLE AND EXCLUDE ME.

AND SO, THE PRICE OF PEACE, WHAT PEACE WAS WAS ACTUALLY CAPITULATION TO THE LOUDEST AND ANGRIEST VOICES.

NOT TO THE MAJORITY OF THE DENOMINATION.

CERTAINLY NOT TO THE MAJORITY OF THE DENOMINATION.

BUT TO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THE ANGRIEST FACTION.

AND THAT'S NOT PEACE.

THAT'S CAPITULATION.

THAT'S EXCLUSION.

AND THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY SO VERY MANY PEOPLE RIGHT NOW DON'T EVEN FEEL WELCOME IN MANY OF THE CHURCHES THAT THEY GREW UP IN.

>> YOU THINK THIS IS A MINORITY OF CHURCH GOERS WHO HAVE BEEN ENGAGING IN THIS CONDUCT?

>> YEAH, I DO BELIEVE STRONGLY IT'S A MINORITY OF CHURCHGOERS.

THE MAJORITY ARE NOT -- TO BE HONEST, ARE NOT THAT POLITICALLY ENGAGED.

MOST PEOPLE, POLITICS IS VERY DOWNSTREAM FROM THE -- THE DAILY RHYTHM OF THEIR LIVES.

BUT FOR THE SMALL MINORITY, FOR WHOM POLITICS REALLY IS AN EXTENSION OF THEIR FAITH, THEY HAVE REALLY ADOPTED TRUMP WITH AN EXTRAORDINARY ZEAL, AND WHAT THEY'VE BEEN VERY, VERY EFFECTIVE AT IS TELLING -- IS USING PERSONAL INSULTS TO WARN THE MAJORITY AWAY FROM DOES CENTERS.

SO, RATHER THAN DEALING WITH MY ARGUMENTS, THEY'LL CALL ME A HERETIC, THEY'LL SAY I'M A WOLF, THAT I'M DEMONIC.

AND SO, THEN, WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING, I READ THIS FROM DAVID FRENCH, THEY'LL SAY, OH, HE'S A HERETIC.

THE IMMEDIATE RECOIL IS, I DON'T WANT TO READ SOMETHING FROM A HERETIC.

SO, THE PASSIVITY OF THE MAJORITY IS REALLY ENABLING THAT MINORITY.

BECAUSE THEY DON'T DO ANY ADDITIONAL WORK TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE ACCUSATION IS TRUE.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS MOST DISPIRITING, AGAIN, ABOUT THIS CONGRESS LAKE FROM THE PCA.

THERE WASURRICANE OF MISLEADING INFORMATION, AND THE GOOD PEOPLE, AND THE QUOTE UNQUOTE GOOD PEOPLE, DID NOTHING TO DETERMINE THE VERACITY OF IT ALL, OR WOULDN'T EVEN REALLY EVALUATE THE MOALITY IN THE WAY PEOPLE ATTACKED US.

THEY JUST WANTED THE PAIN TO THEY WANTED THE CONTROVERSY TO STOP.

AND SO, THEY MEANT CAPITULATION.

AND THIS IS A PATTERN THAT IS REPEATING ITSELF IN INSTITUTION AFTER INSTITUTION WITHIN AMERICAN CHRISTIANITY.

>> YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WELL, HOW COULD YOU HAVE MISSED THAT STRAIN OF INTOLERANCE BEFORE?

IS IT BECAUSE IT WASN'T DIRECTED AT YOU OR ANYBODY WHO WAS IMPORTANT TO YOU AND THEREFORE YOU MISSED IT?

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

I THINK THERE'S A PART OF YOU THAT THINKS, WELL, DIDN'T COME OUT OF NOWHERE.

>> WELL, RIGHT.

>> YOU JUST MISSED IT?

>> YOU'RE CORRECT.

FIRST, THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF THIS THAT IS JUST MEA CULPA.

THERE'S STUFF THAT I SHOULD HAVE SEEN THAT I DIDN'T SEE.

AND I HAVE BEEN FEELING GUILT ABOUT THAT FOR YEARS, QUITE FRANKLY.

SO, SOME OF THAT IS ABSOLUTE MEA CULPA.

PART OF IT IS A VERY HUMAN REACTION, WHEN YOU'RE VERY HAPPY IN A PLACE AND IT SEEMS LOVING AND WARM AND EMBRACING TO YOU, IT DOESN'T -- YOU'RE NOT EXACTLY LOOKING FOR REASONS NOT TO LIKE IT.

YOU'RE NOT OUT THERE SEARCHING FOR ALL THE REASONS WHY THIS IS ACTUALLY BAD, RIGHT?

>> RIGHT.

>> AND THEN THINGS TURN BAD, ALL OF A SUDDEN, OFTEN, THE SCALES FALL FROM YOUR EYES.

IT'S VERY HUMAN.

IT DOESN'T MEAN IT WAS RIGHT, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD HAVE BRNGS BUT THAT'S THE WAY THAT I WAS.

>> THERE'S ANOTHER WRITER WHO HAS WRITTEN FOR "USA TODAY," HE'S WRITTEN FOR "THE POST," HIS NAME IS STEPHEN PETRO.

A LOT OF HIS PUBLIC WORK HAS BEEN ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, RIGHT?

SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HE WROTE WHEN TRUMP WAS FIRST ELECTED, WHICH IS, IT'S NOT THAT I THINK EVERYBODY THAT VOTED FOR TRUMP IS THAT A RACIST, THAT HIS RACISM DOESN'T BOTHER THEM.

OKAY?

>> OR THEY'RE IN DENIAL ABOUT IT.

THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY IN DENIAL ABOUT IT.

SO, WHAT HAS HAPPENED, YOU HAVE AN ENTIRE COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SORT OF CONDITIONED TO BELIEVE THAT ANY ACCUSATION OF RACISM IS FALSE -- >> RIGHT.

>> AND SO, THEY WILL DENY, AND OFTEN, BECAUSE THEIR CONSUMPTION OF MEDIA IS ENTIRELY RIGHT WING MEDIA, ENTIRELY, THEY DON'T HEAR, KNOW ABOUT SOME OF THE WORST THINGS THAT TRUMP HAS SAID.

AND SO, THEY LIVE IN DENIAL, THEY'RE OFTEN PROTECTED BY THEIR OWN TRUSTED MEDIA FIGURES FROM THE TRUTH ABOUT TRUMP, SO THEY -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S A MOMENT IN MY CHURCH THAT'S VERY INDICATIVE, WHEN A WOMAN, AN OLDER WOMAN IN THE CHURCH CAME UP TO ME AND, WITH SINCERITY AND KINDNESS SAID, DAVID, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU OPPOSE OUR PRESIDENT.

CAN YOU TELL ME, AND THIS IS DURING TRUMP'S TERM.

AND, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO GIVE THE WHOLE BRIEF AGAINST TRUMP, AND I JUST TRIED TO VERY NICELY SAY, I JUST WISH HE LIED LESS.

AND THAT WAS JUST MY FIRST ANSWER, AND SHE LOOKS AT ME AND WITH 100% SINCERITY SAYS, YOU MEAN DONALD TRUMP LIES?

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO SORT OF UNDERSTAND, IF YOU'RE OUTSIDE OF MAGA COUNTRY, HOW MUCH THE VISION OF DONALD TRUMP AS A HUMAN BEING THAT HAS BEEN CREATED WITHIN THAT MAGA BUBBLE IS SO CONTRARY TO FACT.

IT IS SO CONTRARY TO REALITY.

THEY SEE HIM AS SORT OF A HEROIC AND VIRT WAS FIGURE IN A WAY THAT THE REST OF AMERICA IS MYSTIFIED BY.

JUST MYSTIFIED.

>> SO, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO PREDICT AND SAY, WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS GOES?

LIKE, IF YOU AND I WERE -- ARE TO TALK AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW, FIVE YEARS OR SO, WHAT KIND OF CONVERSATION DO YOU THINK WE'LL BE HAVING?

>> YOU KNOW, TO BE QUITE FRANK, I THINK A LOT DEPENDS ON WHAT HAPPENS THIS NOVEMBER.

I DON'T THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT IF TRUMP WINS IN 2024, THE ZEAL OF EVANGELICAL SUPPORT FOR HIM WILL BE EVEN GREATER THAN ANYTHING WE'VE SEEN, BECAUSE IT WILL BE SEEN AS DIVINE INTERVENTION, AS A MIRACLE THAT THIS MAN SUBJECT TO ALL OF THESE INDICTMENTS AND NOW A CONVICTION AND A SEXUAL ABUSE FINDING AND ALL THE FRAUD FINDINGS AND ALL OF THIS THAT IT WILL BE INTERPRETED THAT THE WORLD CAME AGAINST HIM, BUT GOD PROTECTED HIM AND MADE HIM PREVAIL.

THAT WILL BE A NARRATIVE THAT WILL LOCK INTO A BIG CHUNK OF THE CHURCH THAT WILL LEAD TO ZEAL THAT I THINK IS ON A SCALE THAT'S EVEN GREATER THAN WE'VE SEEN, AND WILL ALSO CREATE, I THINK, A MODEL GOING FORWARD.

THIS IS HOW YOU ONE ELECTIONS, WITH TRUMP-LIKE FIGURES.

IF TRUMP LOSES, I'M NOT SO SURE THAT WE'LL HAVE A FEVER BREAK MOMENT, SO MUCH AS A FEVER FADE MOMENT.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FORGET THAT A LOT OF REPUBLICANS STILL REALLY LIKED RICHARD NIXON WHEN HE WAS FORCED OUT IN 1974.

THEY DID.

AND THEN WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING IS, THERE WAS SORT OF THIS FADE, NOT SO MUCH A FEVER BREAK, BUT OFTEN A FADE.

AND SO, I THINK YOU WOULD SEE MORE OF A FADE, BUT THAT MAGA POPULOUS REACTION AIR ELEMENT ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE.

IT'S PERPETUATED NOT JUST BY DONALD TRUMP, BUT PEOPLE WITH GIANT SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, 5 MILLION, 6 MILLION FOLLOWERS ARE NOT JUST GOING TO DISAPPEAR INTO THE ETHER IF TRUMP LOSES.

THIS IS A MOVEMENT THAT I THINK IS GOING TO BE RELEVANT AND DANGEROUS IN MANY WAYS IN AMERICAN POLITICS FOR A LONG TIME TO COME.

BUT NOTHING COMPARED TO THE DANGER OF IF TRUMP WINS AGAIN IN 2024.

>> DAVID FRENCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.