(Jeffrey Goldberg) Ladie and gentlemen, David Letterman.

(David Letterman) How you doing?

Nice to meet you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Wait.

Wait a minute.

I was hoping there'd be a second wave.

You're all right.

Nice to see you.

(Goldberg) Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks for.

Thanks for.

Thanks for doing this.

(Letterman) I was going to talk abou the playwright in the age of AI.

What the hell?

(Goldberg) Yeah, I know, I know.

We totally flipped the script on you.

I'm sorry.

I'm just going to stay out here for a few minutes and talk to you about it, and then you're going to interview your guest.

(Letterman) Yeah.

(Goldberg) But look, we saw what happened last night.

It follows what happened to Colbert.

You're the godfather of the genre.

(Letterman) Yes, I am.

(Goldberg) Yeah.

You're the godfather of the genre.

(Letterman) The great grandfather.

(Goldberg I wasn't going there.

Tell us.

Tell us what you think about what happened last night to Jimmy Kimmel.

(Letterman) Well, this is, a misery.

And, in the world of somebody who is an authoritarian, maybe a dictatorship, sooner or later, everyone is going to be touched.

But this is me.

For 30 years, I did this for a living.

So I see this happen.

They took care of Colbert.

That was rude.

That was inexcusable.

The man deserves a great deal of credit.

He's in the Hall of Fame nine times.

And to be manipulated like that.

Because the, the Ellison family didn't want to trouble Donald Trump with this move.

So they got rid of him, not only got rid of him, got rid of the whole franchise.

You're not gonna have to worry about anything, Larry.

It's all gone.

That's fine.

Good night.

And then my good friend Jimmy Kimmel.

You know, I just, I feel bad about this because, if we all see where this is going.

Correct?

It's managed media, and, it's no good.

It's silly.

It's.

It's ridiculous.

And you can't go around firing somebody because you're fearful or tryin to suck up to an authoritarian criminal, administration in the Oval Office.

That's just not how this works.

[applause] (Letterman) Ten years ago, I was smart enough to cancel myself.

But the other thing is the FCC.

This guy, Connor, Brendan Carr.

Yes.

So this guy, the FCC, is.

We can do things the easy way.

We can do things the hard way.

Who is hiring these goons?

Mario Puzo?

We're the FCC.

We're not happy until you're not happy, for God's sakes.

When I was a kid, I was, like, 20 years old, and I wanted to work at a radio station so I went to Chicago to the FCC.

You take a test.

You pass the test.

You have your third phone radio broadcasting license.

That's what the FCC does.

If you're a 50,000 watt clear channel radio station, once a year, they'll come and check your dials to make sure you're not broadcasting at 55,000 watts.

And God forbid you are, then you get an 8 dollar fine.

That's the, that is the FCC.

I don't know what is going on here.

This.

(Goldberg) Let me ask you this.

You worked through or 6 presidential administration (Letterman) Oh my God.

And yes, this a whole list is started with Jimmy Carter.

(Goldberg) Your first show in the Carter era.

Yes.

That's right.

And then all the wa right up through Barack Obama.

And was the one after that that I worked for.

When did I leave?

(Goldberg) Possibly.

I don't know personally I when did you.

Ten years ago.

You said.

(Letterman) Hang on, I got a list.

Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, senior, Bill Clinton, George Bush II, Barack Obama.

Letterman: Yeah Goldberg: All right.

(Letterman) And, attacked these men mercilessly.

Never once.

Well, Jimmy Carter, not so much.

Because wha can you say about Jimmy Carter?

Hes just a sweet guy.

But everybody else we really went to work on.

And I can remember, Bill Clinton, we really went to work on.

And then it got so it was like, whoa, this is a gift.

What are we going to do, Bill Clinton?

He's out of office after eight years of Bill Clinton.

And then George Bush came along and it was easy motoring after that.

But the point is, beating up on these people, rightly or wrongly, accurately or perhaps inaccurately, in the name of comedy.

Not once were we squeeze by anyone from any governmental agency, let alone the dreaded FCC.

(Goldberg) Republican.

Democrat.

Never.

(Letterman) Well I will say we probably went easy on Barack Obama because I kind of like the guy.

(Goldberg) But never a call from the White House.

Never intimation.

(Letterman) No, we because everybody sort of understood in the name of humor, in the name of commenting on what's going on in the world, cultural events, why not?

And by the way, the institution of the President of the United States ought to be bigger than a guy doing a talk show.

You know, i just really ought to be bigger.

(Goldberg Well, it was really interesting last night, late at night, Trump is tweeting or Truth Socialing from Windsor Castle after a steak dinner hosted by the King of England about his, in doing his lat night television show critique.

I mean, it's what are you.

It feels like we're living in a simulation when you think about that.

(Letterman) Well, it would be hilarious if it wasn't all leading to something that from which we won't recover.

(Goldberg) Well, what do you think?

What do you think it's leading to?

(Letterman) I think it's easily.

Well, first of all, here's the thing that's up my nose these days.

By God, we got to get to work on those midterms.

Well, I think the midterm elections will be elections in name only.

I'm sorry.

The Republicans have raised untold billions of dollars.

The Democrats, I think, are staggering a bi behind in terms of fundraising.

(Goldberg) Let me ask you about the actual joke or commentary that Jimmy Kimmel made the other night.

It actually was inaccurate.

I mean, you're watching that he's a comedian, not actors.

(Letterman) Yes, exactly.

Right.

We all make mistakes.

I mean, good lord.

And by the way, the condition of the United States of America has not been perfect from the time I was born to this very day.

And before that, we kno that the goal is not perfection.

Mistakes are going to be made.

Hopefully it will improve.

I think sadly, it's not going to improve.

I'm not exactly in ful my understanding of what Jimmy said, what he was trying to say and what mistake was made.

This is something tha was predicted by our President right after Stephen Colbert, Colbert got walked off.

So you're telling me that this isn't premeditated at some level?

(Goldberg) Well I mean, he also announced that Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyer were next, and and Jimmy Fallon.

This is my own view is not quite as sharp tongued as.

(Letterman) And why?

Why is that?

Jeff, what do you think that is?

No, bu it has something to do with IQ.

Is that what you're saying?

(Goldberg) I, he has a different personality.

He's just a different kind of Jimmy.

(Letterman) By the way, isn't this guy great?

On Friday nights?

(Goldberg) Oh, look at that.

Thank you very much.

(Letterman) Me and my grandparents really loved it.

(Goldberg I told him, I told him he's way too young to watch Washington Week with the Atlantic, but, uh.

(Letterman) But this was, you know, when this thing happened last night, and by the way, I have heard from Jimmy.

He was nice enough to text me this morning, and he's sitting up in bed taking nourishment.

He's going to be fine.

But I said to my wife, I said, I don't know what to think or say about this situation.

I wish in the world, and this is what's great about New York, I wish in the worl I could talk to Jeff Goldberg.

Here I am talking to Jeff Goldberg.

I mean, honest to God is a amazing how these things work.

(Goldberg It's all, it's all serendipity here.

The... talk, keep going on this, on this theme of this descent.

Because one of the things I thin a lot of us are wondering about, I'm surprised at the number of, hardcore moves that this administration has made in many, many differen directions at once, including, dismantling the CDC, as just one example dismantling USAID in every way.

(Letterman Like, you don't like the labor numbers, you fire the person (Goldberg) ...rigging the number.

So the question is, it does seem.

And I just want your analysis of this.

It does seem that there's a kind of passivity in the country about these things.

People are saying, well, Jimmy Kimmel did.

I mean I have to ask you that question about Jimmy Kimmel did get it wrong.

So and the company we heard Mike Pence earlier say, well, look, it's a private company.

They don't, that Jimmy Kimmel doesn't have a First Amendmen right to work for that company.

He didn't exactly deal with the question of the pressure put on by the FCC.

What is what is your diagnosis?

What is the red line for the American people, who I've believed like havin a First Amendment historically, (Letterman) Oh, really?

(Goldberg) and today?

Yeah.

No, I mean, I think it's.

Yeah, people think it's pretty good that you can get to say what you want in America.

(Letterman) Yes, yes.

(Goldberg) So what is what is going on?

(Letterman) Well, I would ask you, what are the determining landmarks here?

Well, authoritarianism, how is that different from a dictatorship?

Or does authoritarianism breed dictators?

Is a dictator a special category?

Where are we on that progress?

Because I think we're inexorably headed in that direction.

So I need you to tell me something encouraging that I can take hom that will settle down my wife.

(Goldberg) You're not.

This is not rhetorical.

You're at.

(Letterman) I'm asking.

(Goldberg) Oh, you're asking.

Shit.

(Letterman) He said shit.

Oh, my God.

The Atlantic Monthly guy said shit.

Yes.

There's your First amendment, ladies and gentlemen.

(Goldberg) Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Go.

I say, as I said to [...], we don't have to worry.

We don't worry about the FCC.

Look, we don't worry.

I mean, and I have to say this in all seriousness to a group of people who subscribe to The Atlantic and read The Atlantic.

Look, you know, there's only two ways to approach.

I'm not trying to soun like self-righteous or whatever.

I'm not.

There's only two ways to approach this moment.

Either you stay true to your mission and just say what you think i true, what you know to be true, or you don't.

I'm personally very surprised that the large numbers of companies, that don't have to fold.

It's just about money.

I mean, nobody nobody yet is threatening to send them to the gulag.

But, but, the the pursuit of money has distorted, has distorted the reactions of the people who know better, including the people who employ Jimmy Kimmel and and Stephen Colbert.

And, by the way, a newspaper that's based in Washington.

And we can talk about it another time.

(Letterman) What happened to that rag?

(Goldberg) You know, there are only two kinds of owners.

And, I mean, we happen to have a good one, but there's two kinds of owners, and they're the owners who, who don't realize that their one responsibilit is to protect the journalists, to allow them to say exactly what the whole country is built on this primary.

(Letterman) This is exactly what I'm alluding to.

There was these two standards of journalism in the United States.

The Post and The Times.

And one could think, okay, these will stabilize.

These are people who represent the truth.

And if they get it wrong, the apologize and will make changes.

And now, one is, one is gone.

I have family members who live in the Washington, DC area, and you're lucky if you get the crossword and weather, you know, out of the Washington Post.

(Goldberg) Your, to answer your question briefly, I there's there's no answer.

What is th what is the bright line between soft authoritarianism, preemptive authorities?

(Letterman) Yes.

(Goldberg) We, by the way, the analogy of the boiling frog is actually incorrect.

Frogs do try to hop out of water, it turns out, but, (Letterman) Well, finally, we've learned something here today.

(Goldberg) We go, we go... But every day brings a cog... Every day bring this almost cognitive assault.

(Letterman) How do people, you think, okay, I'm still okay.

I can still have breakfast.

I still have a big screen TV, so things are okay.

At what point do people who should be affected by this as early on when and the people that but and again, things were not goo for a huge part of this country.

And they're not going to get better for that same group.

So at what point do the doors open in the mind of average Americans and they're petrified?

(Goldberg) As long, you know, this is the problem is as long as there are an abundance of cheap calories, reasonably priced gasoline, and endless video diversion, it's very hard t imagine this country right now sort of saying, wait a second, having a functioning CDC, FDA, USAID National Weather Service, etc.

I don't.

This is the main question that I ask, and I think a lot of our journalists at the Atlantic ask because like when, when, when is this going to penetrate?

When is the idea that, like we've always believed that vaccination was a settled issue in America since the time of George Washington, as I mentioned earlier.

It turns out that it's not settled.

That doesn't seem to upset people enough.

(Letterman) I know this is the great mystery.

Why aren't people upset by this or a half a dozen other things that are upsetting?

(Goldberg) You know what, it's like it's maybe it's like, and I'm not comparing an one country to another country, but maybe it's like Tahrir Square in Cairo in 2011.

Nobody, nobody thought that it was going to happen until it happened.

And, and, and I don't know what the thing is.

(Letterman) This was the Arab Spring.

(Goldberg) The Arab Spring.

I don't know what the thing is.

You know, you would think tha it's, when the government fires the people who track Ebola which is not a partisan issue.

You would think that many people would say, you know what?

It's probably better to know where the Ebola is and that and that hasn't happened.

So we're all waiting to see what the reaction is.

But we also understand that people in the Trump administration.

(Letterman) So let's just say there is isn't a way.

(Goldberg) By the way, I know that we have to bring out your actual guests.

(Letterman) I'm calling the shots here, pal.

But let's jus say there is an actual awareness beyond what you and I believe and can imagine.

Let's say everybody is aware.

What do we do?

(Goldberg) Well, look, we have we still have free media.

I mean, we can't just say well, well, large swaths of it.

Yeah, yeah.

The world's biggest newspaper, The New York Times, is independent of what's happening in Washington.

(Letterman) How many times has the President sued them?

(Goldberg) I understand that they're under pressure, but, but again, it comes back.

(Letterman) Well, look at what happened to the Washington Post.

(Goldberg) Well, exactly.

No, no, I'm not saying that.

I'm not saying... (Letterman) I mean, thank god for your magazine.

(Goldberg) Thank God.

Yes, I think yes, that is worthy of a pause.

But and look, we have an independent [...] What we don't have right now is a Legislative Branch that is functioning according to the demand of the Constitution.

That is it.

That is it.

That is the biggest troublesome fact.

But we do have an independent Judiciary.

(Letterman) Will you agre that checks and balances have, they're pretty anemic now.

(Goldberg) I agree that everything is under pressure right now and ultimately and look, coming back to the Mike Pence interview before, you know, and I hear a lot of things about Mike Pence and I understand that a lot of people who disagree with Mike Pence and his worldview.

I would say this, you know, you're sometimes a person, a person's whole life can be judged by what they do in one single moment of their li Mike Pence said on that terrible day, nope, this election, Im this this was a free and fair election.

The results should be ratified.

I don't care that the person who made me Vice President wants to kill me.

I'm going to do my constitutional duty.

And I have this hope, and I think you do, too.

Letterman: I dont.

Goldberg: Maybe.

Well, all right, I know, s I hope I have just hope I don't.

Well, all right, I know, so I hope I have just hope.

(Letterman) I don't.

(Goldberg) I have this hope that there are many, many more people lik Mike Pence, and we haven't seen enough of them in the current manifestation.

(Letterman) What are they waiting on?

(Goldberg) That's the question.

That's the question is, is what is... (Letterman) By the way, I'll speak for everybody in this room who has kids.

I don't so much care about me.

I've had my fun.

I got a 21 year old son.

I'm worried about him and his family (Goldberg) That's that's completely legitimate.

And I am now I'm going to leave you so you can do.

(Letterman) It's been fun, though, right?

(Goldberg) It's been great, I appreciate it.

Thank you for coming to The Atlantic Festival, (Letterman) This is a great pleasure.

(Goldberg Oh yeah.

It's great, it's great.

And now you're going to introduce your guest.

(Letterman) Thank you very much.

(Goldberg) Thank you.

Bye.

Bye.

[applause]