♪ MUSIC REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS, WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE.

WE HAVE TODAY ONE OF MY FAVORITE AUTHORS, DAVID MORRELL.

HE HAS WRITTEN SUCH EXTRAORDINARY, VARIED WORLDS OF BOOKS AND I'M PARTICULARLY ECSTATIC TO HAVE YOU AS OUR GUEST TODAY.

>>DAVID: WELL, THANK YOU, IT'S GOOD TO BE BACK.

>>LORENE: YOU'RE A CANADIAN-AMERICAN NOVELIST, YOU WERE BEST KNOWN FOR THE NOVEL THAT CAME OUT IN 1972 THAT WAS CALLED FIRST BLOOD, BUT WHAT DID IT TRANSFORM?

>>DAVID: EVENTUALLY, THE MAIN CHARACTER OF FIRST BLOOD IS A CHARACTER NAMED RAMBO AND THAT YEAR I SOLD THE FILM RIGHTS TO COLUMBIA PICTURES FOR RICHARD BROOKS TO WRITE AND DIRECT.

THAT NEVER QUITE HAPPENED AND THE PROJECT THEN WENT TO WARNER BROTHERS, WHERE SIDNEY POLLACK WAS GOING TO DIRECT STEVE MCQUEEN.

>>LORENE: OH, MY.

>>DAVID: YEAH.

BUT STEVE, HE WANTED TO DO THE MOTORCYCLE CHASE, BUT STEVE WAS IN HIS 40S AND THE VIETNAM WAR, THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN IN '75 WHEN THEY FILMED, WHEN THEY WERE GOING TO FILM, AND THE VIETNAM WAR WAS A YOUNG PERSON'S WAR, 19, 20, 21, 22-YEAR-OLD PEOPLE.

SO HE COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN BELIEVABLE.

SO THEY SCRAPPED THAT AND THEY TRIED THIS AND THAT AND FINALLY TWO DISTRIBUTORS, FILM DISTRIBUTORS FROM THE ORIENT, ONE WAS LEBANESE AND ONE WAS HUNGARIAN, HEARD ABOUT THE PROJECT, GOT IT FROM WARNER BROTHERS, AND THEN EVENTUALLY HAD THE IDEA TO PUT SYLVESTER STALLONE IN THE ROLE.

THE PICTURE CAME OUT IN 82, TEN YEARS LATER AND HAD QUITE AN EFFECT.

>>LORENE: WELL, LET'S SHOW A PICTURE RIGHT NOW, SINCE YOU MENTIONED IT.

>>DAVID: SLY IS AN AMAZING GUY, HE'S VERY INTELLIGENT, VERY HUMOROUS, ESPECIALLY ABOUT HIMSELF AND TO TALK ABOUT HIM, HEAR HIM TALK ABOUT SCREENWRITING IS LIKE HAVING A CLASS, HE'S A PRETTY AMAZING GUY.

>>LORENE: ALSO, HAVING SEEN HIM AS RAMBO, I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE, EVEN THOUGH STEVE MCQUEEN WOULD HAVE BEEN WONDERFUL, BUT HE OWNS THAT PART.

>>DAVID: BUT MIND YOU, THERE WERE 26 SCRIPTS, AND IT WASN'T JUST MCQUEEN, NEWMAN WAS CONSIDERED, THERE WAS A WHOLE OTHER, PAUL NEWMAN, THERE WERE A WHOLE OTHER, MICHAEL DOUGLASS WAS BEING CONSIDERED, SOMEHOW THINGS WORKED OUT AND SLY WHO HAD OF COURSE HAD A BIG HIT IN RAMBO, I'M SORRY, IN ROCKY, HAD THEN THOUGH HE'D MADE SEVERAL PICTURES NOT HAD A HIT IN THE UNITED STATES AND SO HE NEEDED SOMETHING, BUT HE WAS VERY POPULAR OVERSEAS.

SO THESE INTERNATIONAL FILM DISTRIBUTORS SAID HE WOULD BE PERFECT IN THE ROLE AND, IN FACT, YOU KNOW HAD A WORLDWIDE AUDIENCE.

SLY LATER SAID THAT HE FELT FIRST BLOOD WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT PICTURE THAT HE'D MADE BECAUSE IT SHOWED THAT HE COULD HAVE A HIT IN SOMETHING BESIDES ROCKY.

>>LORENE: AND HE ABSOLUTELY OWNED THAT PART.

>>DAVID: BOTH OF THEM, BOTH OF THEM.

>>LORENE: YEAH, THERE'S JUST NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, IT DID GIVE HIM WORLDWIDE ACCLAIM AND CREDIBILITY.

I JUST WANT TO TALK A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND, YOU ARE CANADIAN-AMERICAN.

YOU HAVE GOTTEN SO MANY AWARDS, THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED THE THRILLER MASTER LIFETIME AWARD, YOU GOT IN 2009.

>>DAVID: FROM THE INTERNATIONAL THRILLER WRITERS ORGANIZATION.

>>LORENE: YES, THAT'S YOUR PEERS WHO KNOW HOW HARD IT IS FOR YOU TO BE THE FATHER OF THE MODERN ACTION NOVEL.

>>DAVID: THAT'S BECAUSE I'M RAMBO'S FATHER.

>>LORENE: YOU ARE.

YOU'VE WON EDGAR AWARDS, NERO, ANTHONY, YOU HAVE MORE THAN 31 BOOKS, THEY ARE IN AT LEAST THIRTY LANGUAGES, 18 MILLION COPIES ARE IN PRINT.

>>DAVID: IT CHANGES, BUT OF COURSE NOW IN THE DIGITAL AGE, WITH PRINT COPIES GOING LOWER, BUT IN THE HEYDAY OF PRINT, IT WAS AROUND 18 MILLION.

I MEAN, I'M THRILLED THAT I HAD A CAREER THAT WAS ABLE TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS, YOU HAVE HAD QUITE, QUITE THE CAREER.

MAYBE WE'LL TALK ABOUT SOME OF YOUR OTHER BOOKS BEFORE WE LAUNCH IN DEPTH INTO RAMBO , BECAUSE THIS IS AN EXQUISITE TRILOGY.

THE FIRST ONE IS... >>DAVID: MURDER AS A FINE ART.

I SHOULD EXPLAIN, YOU REALLY CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE, BUT MY IDEA WAS I BELIEVE THAT THRILLERS HAVE THE CHANCE TO COMMUNICATE TO A WIDE AUDIENCE THAT YOU CAN EMBED THEMES THAT WHAT WOULD MAYBE BE CALLED A HIGHBROW NOVEL.

I'VE WRITTEN VARIOUS KINDS, FIRST BLOOD COULD BE CONSIDERED OUTDOOR ACTION, I'VE WRITTEN SEVERAL SPY NOVELS, WHICH HAD INFLUENCE, I'VE WRITTEN NON-SUPERNATURAL HORROR.

BUT THE BOOKS I MOST ENJOYED WRITING WERE A SERIES OF VICTORIAN MYSTERY THRILLERS, MURDER AS A FINE ART, INSPECTOR OF THE DEAD .

>>LORENE: HERE'S THE SECOND ONE, INSPECTOR OF THE DEAD .

>>DAVID: THE THIRD IS RULER OF THE NIGHT .

AND THEY ARE ABOUT A REAL PERSON NAMED THOMAS DE QUINCEY, WHO IN HIS LIFETIME WAS KNOWN AS THE OPIUM EATER.

>>LORENE: HE WROTE CONFESSIONS OF AN ENGLISH OPIUM EATER , A CLASSIC OF LITERATURE.

>>DAVID: WELL, IT'S SOMETIMES CALLED THE BEGINNING OF THE MODERN CONFESSIONAL MEMOIR.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

>>DAVID: BUT HE INVENTED SEVERAL OTHER THINGS, BUT FOR MY PURPOSES, HE INVENTED THE WORD "SUBCONSCIOUS."

>>LORENE: NO.

>>DAVID: WELL, BECAUSE OF THE OPIUM THAT HE WAS TAKING AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE A WORD FOR ADDICTION, BUT HE TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THEY CALL A HABIT.

AND HE WAS INTERESTED IN THE WAY THE DRUG AFFECTED HIS MIND AND HE HAD THIS, I LOVE THIS QUOTE, "THE HUMAN MIND IS COMPOSED OF CHASMS AND SUNLESS ABYSSES."

AND SO I WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK IN WHICH THE NEWLY FOUNDED SCOTLAND YARD IS INVESTIGATING AN ACTUAL MURDER OF THE TIME.

AND THEY'RE HAPPY WITH PLASTER CASTS OF FOOTPRINTS, WHEREAS HE IS TALKING TO THEM ABOUT THE CHASMS IN THE HUMAN MIND.

>>LORENE: OH, MY GOSH.

>>DAVID: THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT.

SO IT WAS VERY ENJOYABLE TO WRITE THESE THREE BOOKS AND ALSO TO RESEARCH THEM IN A WAY THAT I COULD FIND THE IDIOSYNCRASIES OF THE VICTORIAN WORLD THAT THE WRITERS OF THE TIME TOOK FOR GRANTED AND DIDN'T INCLUDE.

FOR EXAMPLE, A PROSPEROUS WOMAN'S CLOTHING WOULD WEIGH AROUND 40 POUNDS BECAUSE OF THE HOOPS, WHICH HAD TO BE COVERED, AND THE UNDERGARMENTS, BECAUSE THE HOOPS KEPT POPPING UP, SO SOMETHING LIKE 15 YARDS OF CLOTH WAS REQUIRED.

>>LORENE: VERY HARD TO MAKE A QUICK ESCAPE.

>>DAVID: WELL, I MEAN, IT'S A WONDER THEY WANTED TO SIT DOWN A LOT, I MEAN, IT WAS TOUGH.

THAT KIND OF DETAIL STRUCK ME AS BEING SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE VERY VIVID FOR READERS THAT THEY WOULD FEEL THEY WERE IN FACT THERE.

>>LORENE: BUT THERE'S A LOT OF HISTORY IN THESE BOOKS.

>>DAVID: YES, AN EXTREME AMOUNT OF HISTORY.

BOOKS ARE WRITTEN IN IMITATION OF THE WAY VICTORIAN NOVELS WERE WRITTEN, IN WHICH THE NARRATOR CAME FORWARD AND SAID, WELL, IN ORDER FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND, I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU ABOUT THIS.

SO I WOULD PAUSE THE CHAPTER TO TALK ABOUT VICTORIAN BURIAL PRACTICES AND THEN GO ON.

OH, IT WAS JUST GREAT FUN.

>>LORENE: WELL, IN THE INSPECTOR OF THE DEAD , IT IS SET BACK IN THE 1855 CRIMEAN WAR AND THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS ON QUEEN VICTORIA, WHICH EVERYONE WOULD BE OBSESSED WITH.

>>DAVID: THERE WERE EIGHT ATTEMPTS TO KILL HER, ONE GUY TRIED TO DO IT TWO DAYS IN A ROW.

I THOUGHT, THAT'S MY FAVORITE, RIGHT OUTSIDE THE PALACE, THAT WAS MY FAVORITE.

>>LORENE: OH, MY GOSH.

>>DAVID: AND THAT'S ONE REASON WHY SCOTLAND YARD WAS ESTABLISHED, IN ORDER TO FIND OUT WHAT THREATS WERE AGAINST THE QUEEN AND TO STOP THEM.

>>LORENE: MY GOSH.

NO, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

AND RULER OF THE NIGHT, ISN'T THERE, DIDN'T RALPH WALDO EMERSON SAY, "THE OPIUM EATER IS THE RULER OF THE NIGHT?"

>>DAVID: YES, THAT'S RIGHT.

HE WAS VISITING AND HE CALLED DE QUINCY THAT.

SO DE QUINCY IS THE RULER OF THE NIGHT.

THAT ONE, THE REAL LIFE CRIME IS THE FIRST MURDER ON AN ENGLISH TRAIN.

>>LORENE: WHICH BECAME NOW AN EPIC MEME, AN EPIC THEME IN MURDER MYSTERIES.

>>DAVID: WELL, WHAT PEOPLE DON'T KNOW, AND AGAIN, THIS IS THE VICTORIAN WORLD, YOU WERE LOCKED INTO THE COMPARTMENT.

>>LORENE: OH, SO YOU DIDN'T LOCK IT TO KEEP PEOPLE OUT, YOU WERE LOCKED IN.

>>DAVID: THEY WERE AFRAID PEOPLE WOULD OPEN THE DOOR AND LEAN OUT.

>>LORENE: PUT THEIR HEAD OUT.

>>DAVID: IT WOULD BE A DANGER, SO YOU WERE LOCKED IN.

>>LORENE: OH, MY GOSH.

>>DAVID: AND BARS WERE ON THE WINDOWS FOR THE SAME REASON.

SO IN A REAL CASE, A MAN GOT INTO A MEANS, GOT INTO A FIRST-CLASS COMPARTMENT, AND YOU KNOW HOW NICE IT IS, AND SOMEBODY ELSE GOT IN, AND THEY LOCKED HIM IN, AND ONE GUY HAD IT FOR THE OTHER, AND KILLED HIM, AND IT WAS AN ABATTOIR.

AND THEN HE FIGURED OUT HOW TO GET OFF THE TRAIN.

>>LORENE: HOW DID HE GET OFF THE TRAIN?

>>DAVID: WELL, I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER BECAUSE IT'S BEEN A WHILE, MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT HE HAD A KEY, IF YOU HAD A KEY, YOU COULD LEAN OUT AND DO IT.

ANYWAY, REAL-LIFE CRIMES THAT, IN FACT, WERE INVESTIGATED BY SCOTLAND YARD.

>>LORENE: I CAN THINK OF SO MANY BRITISH MOVIES AND AMERICAN THAT ALL TAKE PLACE ON THE TRAIN.

>>DAVID: IT'S GREAT.

>>LORENE: IT'S A WONDERFUL TABLEAU, YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF ESCAPE OPPORTUNITIES.

YOU KNOW, AS THE CRIMINAL GETTING ON THE TRAIN AND GETS OUT OF SIGHT BEFORE YOU CAN ACTUALLY CATCH HIM.

>>DAVID: IT'S GRAND HOTEL ON WHEELS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, IT SURE IS, IT SURE IS.

IT'S SO AMAZING.

ARE YOU FASCINATED WITH VICTORIAN TIMES?

THESE JUST REEK OF FOGGY NIGHTS IN LONDON, I CAN ALMOST SMELL FISH AND CHIPS IN THE AIR WITH THE VINEGAR.

>>DAVID: I LOVE THE PAST.

I SOMETIMES, I DON'T BELIEVE IN REINCARNATION, BUT I COULD BE PERSUADED.

I HAVE AN AFFINITY FOR OLD THINGS, IF I WERE DOING THIS AGAIN, I'D GO BROKE.

I WOULD BUY GRAND OLD HOUSES THAT WERE IN DISREPAIR, PARTICULARLY IF THEY HAD WONDERFUL STAIRCASES, I HAVE A THING ABOUT STAIRCASES AND REVITALIZE THEM.

THE ONLY TROUBLE IS I'D DO IT WITH SUCH CARE THAT I'D NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY OUT OF THEM, I'D HAVE ALL THESE HOUSES THAT I'D BE BROKE.

>>LORENE: I THINK YOU WOULD DO IT WITH SUCH CARE THAT PEOPLE WOULD REALLY LOVE IT.

BUT IT'S INTERESTING, STAIRCASES ARE A METAPHOR IN A WAY, AN IMAGE FOR CHANGING LEVELS, GOING FROM ONE DIMENSION TO ANOTHER.

>>DAVID: SUBCONSCIOUS.

>>LORENE: SO A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE PUSHED DOWNSTAIRS, YOU KNOW, MEET AN UNTIMELY DOOM THAT WAY, IT'S QUITE REMARKABLE AND YOU CAPTURE IT SO REMARKABLY.

I MEAN, WHEN I GOT DONE, BECAUSE I READ ALL THESE IN A ROW, I KIND OF FORGOT WHERE I WAS, AND IT WAS A BRIGHT, SUNNY NEW MEXICO DAY.

>>DAVID: MY GOAL WAS TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL, PEOPLE SOMETIMES SAY THAT IT'S LIKE WATCHING A MOVIE.

NO, I'M TRYING TO DO A THREE-DIMENSIONAL EFFECT SO THAT PEOPLE FEEL THEY ARE THERE.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>DAVID: IT WAS JUST SO MUCH FUN.

FOR EXAMPLE, ANOTHER ONE IS THE GREEN IN CLOTHING HAD ARSENIC IN IT, SO PEOPLE WERE WEARING POISON AND IN FACT, IT DID AFFECT THEIR HEALTH.

I MEAN, THE LITTLE THINGS, AS SOON AS I FOUND LITTLE THINGS LIKE THAT, I SAID, OH BOY, I'M HAPPY.

>>LORENE: SO THEY DIDN'T FIND A PLANT THAT COULD DO GREEN DYES, GREEN TEA FOR EXAMPLE.

>>DAVID: FOR SOME REASON, ARSENIC WAS ESSENTIAL TO THE GREEN DYE IN CLOTHING.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOD, HOW DIABOLIC.

ANYWAY, WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH DAVID MORRELL ABOUT HIS WONDERFUL BOOKS.

SO YOU HAVE ALL OF THESE VICTORIAN, THRILLING, THRILLING READS, BUT YOU HAVE, YOU INVENTED A MAN CALLED RAMBO AND RAMBO HAS NOW, IT'S SUCH A PHENOMENON THAT IT IS BOTH A VERB, A NOUN, AND AN ADJECTIVE BECAUSE PEOPLE GET IT.

THIS IS ONE BOOK THAT I PARTICULARLY LOVE, IT'S CALLED... >>DAVID: WELL, THIS IS A NEW BOOK, IT'S NOT BY ME, IT'S CALLED THE RAMBO REPORT.

>>LORENE: BUT HE ASSEMBLED EVERYWHERE RAMBO WAS, IT'S FABULOUS.

>>DAVID: HIS NAME IS NAT SEGALOFF, AND HE HAS WRITTEN ABOUT MOVIE ICONS SUCH AS ARTHUR PENN AND WILLIAM FRIEDKIN, HE'S A GIFTED HISTORIAN OF MOVIES.

AND HE AND I CROSSED PATHS SOME YEARS AGO BECAUSE WE BOTH SHARED A FASCINATION WITH A SCREENWRITER OF THE GOLDEN AGE, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S THE RIGHT TERM, STIRLING SILLIPHANT, WHO HAD WON AN OSCAR FOR IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT AND WAS THE HIGHEST PAID SCREENWRITER IN HOLLYWOOD IN THE 70S.

I BECAME ENCHANTED WITH STERLING, HE CHANGED MY LIFE BECAUSE OF HIS WRITING FOR A TV SERIES CALLED ROUTE 66 , FOUR EPISODES OF WHICH WERE FILMED IN NEW MEXICO.

I LOVE TO BE ABLE TO SAY THAT, ONE IN CARLSBAD CAVERNS AND A COUPLE HERE IN SANTA FE.

ANYHOW, NAT WROTE A BOOK ABOUT STERLING AND INTERVIEWED ME AND THEN A WHILE AGO, HE SAID, WHY DON'T I WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THE RAMBO PHENOMENON, THE WHOLE THING BECAUSE IT'S NOT UNDERSTOOD, ALL THE THINGS THAT THE 26 SCRIPTS AND THE 10 YEARS IT TOOK TO MAKE IT, AND THE SIMILAR EPIC BEHIND-THE-SCENES THAT WERE NECESSARY FOR THE OTHER FILMS AND THE DIFFERENT FILMS.

ONE THING THAT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE IS THAT THE RAMBO OF THE FIRST MOVIE IS AN ANTIHERO AND THE RAMBO OF THE SECOND AND THIRD MOVIES CHANGED, IS NOT THE SAME CHARACTER ALTHOUGH HE HAS THE SAME NAME, HE'S NOW BECOME A SUPERHERO.

HE'S DOING THE THINGS THAT THE RAMBO IN THE FIRST MOVIE COULDN'T HAVE MADE HIMSELF DO BECAUSE OF PTSD.

SO THERE WERE ALL KINDS OF ISSUES THAT NAT GETS INTO, I'M REALLY VERY EXCITED ABOUT THE BOOK.

>>LORENE: BUT I HAVE TO GO BACK BECAUSE THE BOOK THAT LAUNCHED HIM IS CALLED FIRST BLOOD.

WHERE DID YOU GET THE NAME RAMBO, IT'S SUCH A POWERFUL NAME.

>>DAVID: I LOVE TO TELL THIS STORY.

>>LORENE: I LOVE THIS STORY, TOO.

>>DAVID: WELL, MY WIFE CAN BE SAID TO BE THE CREATOR OF RAMBO.

WE WERE IN GRADUATE SCHOOL AT PENN STATE, I WAS STUDYING AMERICAN LITERATURE AND WORKING ON THE NOVEL, BUT I DIDN'T HAVE A NAME.

SO I'M TYPING AWAY, AND I'D LEAVE A GAP WHERE THE NAME WOULD BE, AND THEN "BLANK" DOES WHATEVER.

>>LORENE: SO RALPH DIDN'T FIT.

>>DAVID: RALPH DID NOT FIT.

>>LORENE: HERBERT.

>>DAVID: SOMEBODY SAID IT'S A SYNONYM FOR THROWING UP.

>>LORENE: YEAH, RIGHT.

>>DAVID: NO, NO, THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK.

SO SHE WAS OUT ONE DAY, OUR DAUGHTER WAS MAYBE TWO YEARS OLD, AND WE DIDN'T HAVE MUCH MONEY, SO DONNA OFTEN WENT TO FARMERS AND BOUGHT THINGS.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT SOUNDS WRONG, BUT ROADSIDE STANDS, YOU CAN SOMETIMES GET A BARGAIN.

SO SHE CAME HOME WITH SOME APPLES AND SHE SAID, AND I REMEMBER VIVIDLY, I WAS AT MY DESK, IT WAS A SATURDAY AFTERNOON, AND I'M, YOU KNOW, WORKING AWAY.

SHE SAYS, I BOUGHT SOME APPLES, OKAY.

SHE SAID, HERE, TASTE THE APPLE, NOW, THIS IS MYTHIC AS CAN BE, EAT THE APPLE AND YOU KNOW, DA-DA-DA-DA AND FINALLY I SAID, OH, OKAY AND I BIT INTO THE APPLE.

AND WHAT DO YOU SAY, YOU SAY, THAT TASTES PRETTY GOOD, WHAT'S IT CALLED?

THAT'S AN AUTOMATIC THING AND SHE SAYS, THAT'S A RAMBO APPLE.

AND I REMEMBER GOING, ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT A WRITER IS WHEN SOMETHING HAPPENS, YOU KNOW IT AND YOU GRAB IT.

AND SHE SAID, IT'S A RAMBO APPLE AND I SAID, SPELL IT AND SHE SAID, R-A-M-B-O.

NOW, A LITTLE RESEARCH IS THAT WHEN JOHNNY APPLESEED, SO IT IS SAID, PLANTED APPLES IN INDIANA, PENNSYLVANIA, AND OHIO, THEY WERE RAMBO APPLES, IT'S FROM SCANDINAVIA.

AND ONE TRANSLATION OF THE NAME IS MOUNTAIN DWELLER.

THE NAME IS VERY WELL KNOWN IN SCANDINAVIA, SO THE JOKE IS IT COULD HAVE BEEN MACINTOSH.

BUT IT'S FUNNY HOW SOMETHING LIKE THAT REVERBERATES BECAUSE OF HER GOING TO THAT ROADSIDE STAND.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

WELL, TAKE US THROUGH THE EVOLUTION.

>>DAVID: THE FIRST NOVEL, AND THIS IS THE FIRST EDITION, 1972, AND YOU CAN SEE THE FIGURE OF THE MEDAL OF HONOR AND THE FIGURE RUNNING.

AND IN THE NOVEL, RAMBO WAS IN EFFECT LIKE WHAT WE WOULD THEN CALL A HIPPIE, HIS LONG HAIR AND A BEARD AND AT THAT TIME, IF YOU LOOK THAT WAY, POLICE OFFICERS DID NOT TAKE KINDLY TO YOU.

>>LORENE: NO, THEY WOULDN'T.

>>DAVID: I GREW THIS MUSTACHE, I'VE HAD IT ALL THESE YEARS.

I WANTED TO SHAVE IT OFF ONCE, AND MY WIFE SAID, NO, NO, NO, BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY ONE, SHE ONLY KNOWS ME THIS WAY.

BUT I PERSONALLY ENCOUNTERED AT THE TIME THAT POLICE OFFICERS WOULD MOCK ME FOR HAVING IT.

SO I WAS THINKING, AS YOU KNOW, AUDIE MURPHY, AMERICA'S MOST DECORATED SOLDIER OF WORLD WAR II, WAS MY MODEL FOR THE CHARACTER, AND WHEN HE CAME BACK FROM THE WAR, THE SECOND WORLD WAR, HE SAID THAT HE WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK.

HE WROTE A FIRST BOOK TO HELL AND BACK , HIS COMBAT EXPERIENCES, BUT HE WANTED TO WRITE ANOTHER BOOK ABOUT THE TROUBLE HE HAD IN PEACETIME, GETTING BACK, AND WHAT WE NOW CALL PTSD AND SO THAT WAS MY MODEL.

RAMBO HAD THE LONG HAIR AND A BEARD AND THE POLICE REACT TO HIM AS THEY WOULD IN REAL LIFE AT THAT TIME.

AND SO WE KNOW THE MOVIE WAS AMAZINGLY SUCCESSFUL, NOW, A SPOILER, RAMBO DIES AT THE END OF MY NOVEL.

AND HE DIED IN THE FIRST CUT OF THE MOVIE.

BUT SYLVESTER SAID, YOU KNOW, WE COULD HAVE SEQUELS, YOU NEVER KNOW AND THERE WAS A BIG DISCUSSION IN-HOUSE ABOUT WHETHER TO LET KIRK DOUGLAS, WHO WAS CAST AS COLONEL TROUTMAN, RICHARD CRENNA EVENTUALLY PLAYED HIM, KIRK DOUGLAS WAS ADAMANT THAT RAMBO HAD TO DIE.

AND THE DISAGREEMENT, IT WAS A POLITE, CREATIVE DISAGREEMENT, LED KIRK TO SAY, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO DO THE MOVIE AND WENT BACK HOME AND THAT'S WHEN RICHARD CAME IN.

AND SO BY A KIND OF ACCIDENT, THEY SAID, LET'S LET HIM LIVE AND THE PICTURE WAS SO SUCCESSFUL.

BUT THE BIG MOVIE WAS THE SECOND ONE, RAMBO FIRST BLOOD PART TWO .

YOU CAN SEE THE CONFUSION, THEY COULDN'T CALL IT RAMBO II BECAUSE IT WASN'T IN THE FIRST ONE AND THAT MOVIE IN 1985, THAT WAS THE SUMMER OF RAMBO.

YOU COULD NOT GO ANYWHERE WITHOUT RAMBO AND I THINK IT'S FROM THERE THAT THE WORD ENTERED THE LANGUAGE.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>DAVID: AND JOHNNY CARSON, I LOVE THIS, JOHNNY CARSON, THE KING OF LATE NIGHT ON THE TONIGHT SHOW , HE DID AN EIGHT-MINUTE, WHICH IS A LONG TIME, EIGHT-MINUTE SKETCH ON THE TONIGHT SHOW IN WHICH HE WAS RAMBO IN THIS RUBBER SUIT WITH THE BANDANA AND HE HAD, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS CARRYING AROUND.

THE MAILMAN WAS SINGING WHEN THE RED, RED ROBIN COMES BOB, BOB, BOBBING ALONG AND THE MYTH IS THAT RAMBO IS ANTI-COMMUNIST, THIS WAS SOMEHOW ADDED POLITICALLY, BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE IN THE ORIGINAL.

SO RAMBO BLEW UP THE POSTMAN, IT WAS VERY FUNNY AND THEY HAD DEBRIS FLYING THROUGH THE WINDOW.

>>LORENE: I'LL TRY TO FIND THAT ONLINE.

>>DAVID: IT IS ONLINE.

MR. RAMBO'S NEIGHBORHOOD WAS CALLED.

THAT WAS THE YEAR OF RAMBO AND THEN THREE YEARS LATER THERE WAS A SECOND SEQUEL, THIRD MOVIE CALLED RAMBO III.

WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT, AND I'M HOLDING THESE UP BECAUSE I WROTE NOVELIZATIONS FOR THE TWO MOVIES, BUT I, NORMALLY THAT'S A KIND OF PHOTOCOPY, BUT I HAVE, I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN WRITE BOOKS ABOUT RAMBO BY CONTRACT.

AND THE PRODUCERS, REALLY AT THE TIME WANTED BOOKS IN STORES BECAUSE NOVELIZATIONS WERE A COMMODITY, THEY WERE VERY POPULAR.

SO I HAD THE AUTHORITY TO CHANGE THE PLOTS IF I WANTED, I COULD EXPAND THEM, I COULD CHANGE AND WHAT MADE IT MORE INTERESTING IS THAT THE PERSON WHO HAD DONE THE FIRST DRAFT FOR RAMBO, I CALL IT RAMBO 2, WAS JAMES CAMERON.

NOW THIS WAS BEFORE TERMINATOR 2 , THIS WAS BEFORE TITANIC , BEFORE AVATAR , HE WAS JUST GETTING STARTED, HE'D BEEN WORKING FOR ROGER CORMAN AND IT'S A WONDERFUL SCRIPT BUT IT'S VERY DARK, SO I HAD REWRITTEN THE SCRIPT IN ORDER TO MAKE IT MORE AN ADVENTURE THAT IT IS.

BUT I REMEMBER SAYING TO THE PRODUCER, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ENOUGH HERE AND SO HE SENT ME THE CAMERON SCRIPT, AND I SAID, OH, BOY.

SO THE SECOND BOOK IS A THIRD CAMERON, A THIRD SCREENPLAY, AND A THIRD ME AND THEN THE THIRD ONE, THEY KEPT CHANGING ME FOR BUDGET REASONS, KEPT CHANGING THE SCRIPT SO OFTEN THAT I PICKED AN EARLY ONE WHICH WAS LIKE RAMBO OF ARABIA, IT WAS VERY AMBITIOUS, MUCH, MUCH BIGGER THAN THE MOVIE.

SO IN A WAY, THEY BROKE ALL THE RULES FOR NOVELIZATIONS, IT WAS AN ADVENTURE, ACTUALLY A VERY CREATIVE ONE.

>>LORENE: IT'S ACTUALLY AN AMAZING ODYSSEY.

>>DAVID: YES, IT WAS.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE LIKE IT SAYS, WHAT, FIVE FILMS, THREE BOOKS, ONE LEGEND.

SO WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME, THERE'S SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT.

HOW DO YOU FEEL, YOU'RE RAMBO'S DAD, FATHER OF THE MODERN ACTION NOVEL.

YOU CHANGED THE WHOLE GENRE, YOU INFLUENCE SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE, SO MUCH TELEVISION, SO MUCH MOVIES, SO MUCH LITERATURE, BECAUSE YOU CHANGE THE GENRE.

YOU CHANGE THE FIELD ON WHICH YOU PRESENTED THESE NOVELS.

>>DAVID: AND YOU CAN'T, OF COURSE, YOU COULDN'T PLAN IT.

ONE CRITIC SAID THAT IF YOU DID THE CHRONOLOGY, IT'S LIKE SHERLOCK HOLMES, TARZAN, JAMES BOND, AND RAMBO IN TERMS OF BOOKS THAT BECAME MOVIES THAT HAD A GLOBAL INFLUENCE AND YOU CAN'T PLAN THAT.

HEMINGWAY SAID THAT YOU NEED DISCIPLINE, YOU NEED TALENT, BUT YOU NEED LUCK AND THERE WAS NO WAY THAT I SAT DOWN AND SAID, OH, THIS IS ALL GOING TO HAPPEN.

YOU CAN NEVER PREDICT THAT AND I'M A PROFESSOR, I WAS A PROFESSOR OF AMERICAN LITERATURE, SO I WATCH ALL THIS KIND OF WITH A SCHOLAR'S INTEREST.

AND I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT RAMBO FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW AND WHEN NAT SEGALOFF WROTE THE RAMBO REPOR, I WAS HAPPY TO DO INTERVIEWS BECAUSE I COULD ADD TO THE SCHOLARLY BACKGROUNDS FOR THE RECORD SO PEOPLE WOULD KNOW WHAT WAS INVOLVED.

>>LORENE: AND YOU ALSO WROTE THE INTRODUCTION TO THAT BOOK FOR HIM.

>>DAVID: I DID WRITE THE INTRODUCTION AS WELL.

>>LORENE: WHAT ARE YOU WORKING ON NOW?

>>DAVID: A COUPLE OF THINGS.

THERE ARE SOME MOVIE THINGS IN THE WORKS AND I WAS WORKING ON A WESTERN FOR A WHILE.

I GO THROUGH THE GENRES, AS I MENTIONED, AND SO I THOUGHT, TIME TO DO A WESTERN.

BUT IT ISN'T THE TIME AND THE BOOK KEPT GETTING LONGER AND LONGER AND LONGER.

I'VE BEEN WORKING ON A GHOST STORY AS WELL, BUT THESE DAYS, THE MARKET IS TENDING TOWARD BOOKS THAT ARE OF A FANTASY NATURE.

THERE'S A SUB-GENRE CALLED ROMANTASY, WHICH IS A COMBINATION OF FANTASY, SUCH AS GEORGE R.R.

MARTIN'S GAME OF THRONES , AND PRETTY STRONG ROMANCE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT ACTUAL PHYSICAL SCENES THAT YOU WOULDN'T FIND IN A TRADITIONAL ROMANCE AND THESE TAKE PLACE IN ANOTHER KIND OF UNIVERSE.

SO THEY'VE ESCAPED IN A NUMBER OF WAYS FROM OUR CONTENTIOUS SOCIETY AND SO WESTERNS WOULDN'T QUITE FIT THAT.

>>LORENE: NO, IT WOULDN'T.

>>DAVID: BUT I'M WORKING, I LOVE, I FIND WRITING TO BE A LITTLE BIT LIKE MEDITATION AND I'M NOT HAPPY, IF I CAN'T DO MY FIVE HOURS AT A DESK.

>>LORENE: I THANK YOU SO MUCH.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS DAVID MORRELL, I'M SO GRATEFUL THAT YOU CAME.

>>DAVID: ALWAYS FUN TO VISIT.

>>LORENE: PLEASE COME BACK WHEN YOU FINISH YOUR NEXT BOOK.

>>DAVID: OKAY, I SHALL, THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: THESE ARE WONDERFUL.

YOU'VE GIVEN US SO MUCH, AND I THANK YOU.

>>DAVID: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON A REALLY EXTRAORDINARY EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

THANK YOU, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

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