REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLA AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA F. I AM SO PLEASED TO HAVE AS A GUEST TODAY, DAVID QUAMMEN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>DAVID: I'M DELIGHTED TO BE WITH YOU, LORENE.

>>LORENE: WELL, I'VE BEEN READING YOUR BOOKS.

YOU'VE BEEN HERE FOR THE SANTA FE INTERNATIONAL LITERARY FESTIVAL, AND I'VE GONE TO YOUR LECTURES.

YOU'RE AN AUTHOR AND A JOURNALIST, BUT YOU'RE ONE OF THE FINEST SCIENCE WRITERS, AS A MATTER OF FACT, ELIZABETH KOLBERT, WHO WROTE THE SIXTH EXTINCTION SAID, "NO ONE WRITES ABOUT COMPLEX SCIENCE BETTER THAN DAVID QUAMMEN."

YOU MAKE THE MOST COMPLICATED IDEAS ACCESSIBLE, SO I'M VERY GLAD THAT YOU'RE HERE.

YOU STARTED AS A NOVELIST, YOU WROTE FOUR NOVELS, AND YOU SAID THE BEST BREAK YOU EVER HAD WAS FAILING TO BE A NOVELIST.

>>DAVID: BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ME, BECAUSE IT FORCED ME TO LEARN TO WRITE NONFICTION AND I HAVE THEREFORE HAD A LIFE.

THE LAST 40 OR 45 YEARS, WRITING NONFICTION FOR MAGAZINES AND IN BOOKS, THAT HAS ALLOWED ME TO TRAVEL THE WORLD AND TO PAY ATTENTION TO OTHER PEOPLE AND OTHER PEOPLE'S JOBS, OTHER PEOPLE'S PASSIONS, OTHER PEOPLE'S MISSIONS, AND IT'S BEEN JUST FAR MORE INTERESTING, AT LEAST FOR ME, THAN SITTING IN A ROOM AND PRODUCING NOVELS.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU'VE ALSO BEEN IN THE WILD.

YOU'VE BEEN IN THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY PLACES ON EARTH OBSERVING SOME OF THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY ANIMALS WITH YOUR PREFERRED PROFESSION FIELD BIOLOGISTS LIKE JANE GOODALL.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO'VE JUST IMMERSED THEIR LIFE IN THAT, NOT FOR FAME OR GLORY OR MONEY, BUT BECAUSE THEY LOVE THESE CRITTERS THAT THEY'RE WORKING WITH AND THEY WANT EVERYONE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE HAVE TO LEARN FROM EVERY LIFE FORM.

>>DAVID: THAT'S RIGHT.

AND THAT PART STARTED FOR ME BACK IN 1999 WHEN I GOT A CALL FROM NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE ONE WINTER AND AN EDITOR ASKED ME TO DO A MULTI-PART PROJECT FOR THEM.

I HAD NEVER WORKED FOR THEM BEFORE, I'D NEVER REALLY WANTED TO WORK FOR THEM BEFORE, I THOUGHT OF IT AS A PHOTOGRAPHER'S MAGAZINE, A GREAT PHOTOGRAPHER'S MAGAZINE, BUT NOT A WRITER'S MAGAZINE.

THEY ASKED ME TO WALK ACROSS THE CONGO FOREST WITH AN EXPLORER WHO IS GOING TO BUSHWHACK THROUGH THE LAST REMAINING GREAT FOREST OF CENTRAL AFRICA.

>>LORENE: WAS THAT MIKE FAY?

>>DAVID: THAT WAS MIKE FAY.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOD.

YOU WALKED, HE WALKED 456 DAYS THROUGH THE BUSH.

>>DAVID: THAT'S CORRECT.

HE WALKED 2000 MILES IN A PAIR OF RIVER SANDALS AND SHORTS, BUSHWHACKING FROM THE NORTHEASTERN CORNER OF THE REPUBLIC OF CONGO TO THE ATLANTIC OCEAN, TOOK HIM 456 DAYS.

456 DAYS WITHOUT A HOT SHOWER, WITHOUT A SOLID ROOF, WHATEVER.

SURVEYING WHAT'S THERE.

WHERE ARE THE GORILLAS, WHERE ARE THE LEOPARDS, WHERE ARE THE CHIMPANZEES, WHERE ARE THE FOREST ELEPHANTS, WHERE ARE THE GREAT OLD GROWTH TREES.

SURVEYING THEM AND MAPPING THEM SO THAT THE IMPORTANT THINGS COULD BE PROTECTED.

>>LORENE: AND SO HE CALLED THAT A MEGA TRANSECT.

>>DAVID: MEGA TRANSECT WAS THE NAME OF THIS PROJECT.

MEGA AS IN, MEGA AS IN HUGE, TRANSECT AS IN A BIOLOGICAL SURVEY WALK.

AND YOU KNOW, YOU COULD SAY IT WAS THE MOTHER OF ALL BIOLOGICAL SURVEY WALKS 2000 MILES ON THIS ZIGZAG PATH.

AND I WALKED SECTIONS OF IT WITH HIM, MYSELF AND A WONDERFUL PHOTOGRAPHER PARTNER OF MINE NAMED NICK NICHOLS, THE GREAT NICK NICHOLS.

HE AND I DOCUMENTED THIS EXPEDITION IN THREE STORIES THAT RAN IN NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE IN THE YEARS 2000, 2001, AND THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF MY RELATIONSHIP WITH NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC.

AND AFTER THAT, THEY SORT OF MADE ME ONE OF THEIR GO-TO GUYS FOR GOING TO WILD REMOTE PLACES, WRITING ABOUT WILD CREATURES AND THE SCIENTISTS WHO STUDY THEM.

GOING ON THE EXPEDITIONS, EXPLAINING THE SCIENCE, BRINGING BACK THE STORIES, WORKING ALWAYS WITH THESE WONDERFUL PHOTOGRAPHERS, NICK NICHOLS AND OTHERS.

>>LORENE: YES.

SO ONE OF YOUR BOOKS, THE MOST RECENT ONE, IS CALLED THE HEARTBEAT OF THE WILD: DISPATCHES FROM LANDSCAPES OF WONDER, PERIL, AND HOPE.

AND THIS IS THE COVER, IS THIS C-BOY, THIS LION?

>>DAVID: THAT IS C-BOY, THE LION.

>>LORENE: OKAY.

THAT'S A LETTER C AS IN CAT.

>>DAVID: LETTER C, YES, HYPHEN BOY.

NOT AN INTERESTING NAME FOR A VERY WONDERFUL, INTERESTING, CHARISMATIC CREATURE, AN INDIVIDUAL LION THAT WHEN NICK NICHOLS AND I WENT BACK TO AFRICA FOR ANOTHER STORY TO DO THE SERENGETI LION, HE BECAME OUR CENTRAL CHARACTER.

HE WAS A SURVIVOR, HE HAD ALMOST BEEN KILLED BY OTHER MALE LIONS.

HE HAD LIVED TO FATHER NEW CUBS, MOVING TO A NEW TERRITORY.

HE EXEMPLIFIED THE FACT THAT IT'S VERY DANGEROUS TO BE A LION, EVEN AN ALPHA MALE.

THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF DEATH AMONG LIONS IN THE WILD IS OTHER LIONS, SOMETHING I LEARNED FROM THIS GREAT LION BIOLOGIST, CRAIG PACKER.

SO WE WROTE ABOUT, I WROTE ABOUT, AND NICK PHOTOGRAPHED C-BOY AND THE PIECE ENDED UP RUNNING IN THE MAGAZINE UNDER THE TITLE, "THE SHORT HAPPY LIFE OF A SERENGETI LION," A PLAY ON HEMINGWAY'S SHORT STORY, THE "SHORT HAPPY LIFE OF FRANCIS MACOMBER."

WHICH ALSO INVOLVES LIONS AND BRIEF HAPPINESS AND SUDDEN DEATH IN AN AFRICAN SETTING.

BUT THIS WAS A STORY OF C-BOY AND NICK NICHOLS ALLOWED ME TO USE THAT PHOTOGRAPH FOR THE COVER OF THIS BOOK.

>>LORENE: IT'S STUNNING, THERE'S SO MUCH SOUL, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST REALLY, YOUR HEART JUST RESPONDS.

IT'S A VERY EMOTIONAL COVER.

AND IN THIS BOOK, A LOT OF YOUR ARTICLES, BECAUSE YOU HAVE WRITTEN HUNDREDS OF ARTICLES FOR OUTSIDE MAGAZINE, FOR NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC , FOR NEW YORKER , FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES.

ROLLING STONE, ATLANTIC, YOU KNOW, SO YOU'RE A PROLIFIC WRITER.

I'M SO GLAD THAT YOU MOVED TO NONFICTION BECAUSE I LEARN SO MUCH FROM YOUR BOOKS.

>>DAVID: THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

AND THIS BOOK, IT'S BASED ON 21 OF THOSE ARTICLES ABOUT WILD PLACES AND WILD CREATURES THAT I WROTE FOR NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC.

BUT I'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK TO PULL THOSE 21 PIECES TOGETHER INTO A WHOLE.

I'VE DONE NEW REPORTING, I'VE UPDATED THE REPORTING ON THE DIFFERENT SITUATIONS, I HAVE ADDED CONNECTIVE TISSUE.

I'VE TOLD THE STORIES OF HOW ONE ASSIGNMENT LED TO ANOTHER, HOW THE EDITORS WOULD PRESENT THESE THINGS TO ME, WHAT THINGS WERE LIKE WHEN I CAME HOME FROM ONE AND HAD TO GO OFF ON ANOTHER, HOW THEY FIT TOGETHER INTO WHAT I HOPE IS A LARGER MEANING.

AND A NEW FORWARD AND A NEW AFTERWARD ARE IN THE BOOK WHERE I EXAMINE THIS IDEA OF WILDNESS, WHAT IS WILDNESS AND HOW DO WE PROTECT IT ON PLANET EARTH IN THE 21ST CENTURY?

SO AS I SAID AT THE TALK AT THE SANTA FE LITERARY FESTIVAL, I THINK OF THIS AS NOT A COLLECTION OF PIECES, BUT AS MY NARRATIVE MANIFESTO.

ON WILDNESS AFTER 40 YEARS OF COVERING IT.

>>LORENE: AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU COME OFF IS WITH A CERTAIN CAVEAT BECAUSE THERE'S A RISK IN WRITING ABOUT THESE SPECIAL PLACES, BECAUSE EVERYONE WILL WANT TO GO THERE.

PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO OWN THE LAMBORGHINI ANYMORE, THEY WANT TO GO TO THAT ONE RARE PLACE AND THEN THEY END UP TRASHING IT.

>>DAVID: SOME OF THESE PLACES PEOPLE WANT TO GO TO, SOME OF THEM LIKE THE SERENGETI, WHICH IS SO MAGNIFICENT, AND YOU CAN RIDE AROUND IN A LAND ROVER AND YOU CAN SEE GIRAFFES GALLOP, AND YOU CAN SEE LIONS LIKE C-BOY, SOME OF THE OTHER PLACES THAT I'VE GONE TO AND THAT I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT, PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO GO TO, PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BUSHWHACK THROUGH THE SWAMPS OF THE CONGO BASIN GENERALLY.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>DAVID: THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE GORILLAS AND CHIMPANZEES AND GABOON VIPERS THAT BADLY AND THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM THAT CLOSE UP.

SO I'M NOT CONCERNED WITH THAT SO MUCH ABOUT SOME OF THOSE PLACES I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT.

THE GOUALOUGO TRIANGLE IN THE REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO, A VERY, VERY WILD REMOTE PLACE WHERE NICK NICHOLS AND I AND MIKE FAY TOOK JANE GOODALL TO SEE THE CHIMPS OF THE GOUALOUGO, A PLACE SO REMOTE THAT THE CHIMPS THERE ARE VIRTUALLY, THEY'RE NOT TAME, ON THE OTHER CONTRARY, THEY ARE SO REMOTE THAT THEY HAVEN'T HAD CONTACT WITH HUMANS AND THEY DON'T FEAR HUMANS.

SO WHEN WE WALKED THROUGH THERE, THE CHIMPANZEES FOLLOWED US, THEY WERE CURIOUS ABOUT US.

THEY CAME DOWN AND LINGERED AROUND OUR CAMP.

THEN IT WAS DECIDED THAT IT WOULD BE GOOD TO TAKE JANE IN THERE, JANE GOODALL, TO SEE THESE CHIMPS AND TO USE THE SPOTLIGHT OF HER INTERNATIONAL FAME TO HELP PRESERVE, PROTECT THAT PARTICULAR AREA.

>>LORENE: AND THAT AREA BECAME PART OF A BIG PARK THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT.

>>DAVID: AND THAT AREA BECAME PART OF A NATIONAL PARK, IT WAS A SUCCESSFUL MISSION.

GOD BLESS JANE.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU ACTUALLY BLESSED HER IN THE FORM OF DUCT TAPE.

SO, TELL US, SHE'S A TROOPER AND SHE'S ALL HEART AND SHE'S DEDICATED TO DOING WHATEVER SHE NEEDS TO DO FOR HER PEOPLE WHO ARE CHIMPANZEES.

>>DAVID: BUT OF COURSE SHE DID MOST OF HER FIELD WORK ON THE GOMBE CHIMPANZEES IN TANZANIA IN DRY FOREST, DRY FOREST, A WILD PLACE, A SMALL, PRECIOUS, WILD PLACE, THE GOMBE, NOW IT'S GOMBE NATIONAL PARK.

BACK IN 1960, WHEN SHE STARTED IT WAS GOMBE STREAM RESERVE.

IT'S DRY FOREST.

MIKE FAY INVITED HER TO COME TO THE GOUALOUGO TRIANGLE AND TO GET THERE WE RODE DUGOUT CANOES TO A VILLAGE, AND THEN WE RODE A TRUCK, AND THEN WE RODE MORE DUGOUT CANOES, AND THEN WE STARTED WALKING AND WE WALKED FOR 12 KILOMETERS THROUGH THE SWAMPS OF THIS PART OF THE CONGO.

AND WE ALL DID IT IN RIVER SANDALS AND SHORTS, WHICH IS THE WAY WE HAD LEARNED TO TRAVEL IN THESE SWAMPS.

JANE HAD BEEN WARNED.

SHE HAD A PAIR OF PLASTIC SANDALS FROM A MARKET SOMEWHERE IN AFRICA, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY SHE SAID,"YOU GUYS ARE TRYING TO KILL ME."

SHE WAS 68 AT THE TIME, WHICH SEEMS YOUNG TO ME NOW, BUT IT SEEMED OLD TO JANE THEN, BUT AS YOU SAY, SHE'S A TROOPER.

SHE WALKED THOSE 12 MILES, HER FEET WERE TORN UP.

I HAVE THIS METHOD I USE OF DUCT TAPING MY FEET, DUCT TAPING OVER ALL THE SORES AND THE HOTSPOTS.

>>LORENE: FIRST YOU PUT IODINE AND THEN YOU PUT THAT CLEAN, STERILE PAPER AND THEN YOU TAPE.

>>DAVID: RIGHT, SO I WAKE UP IN THE MORNING IN MY TENT.

I'VE WASHED THE NIGHT BEFORE, SO I'M CLEAN AND DRY.

IT'S 4:30 AM, I PAINT OVER ALL THE SCRATCHES AND CUTS AND BLISTERS ON MY FEET WITH IODINE.

I PUT PIECES OF SMOOTH WHITE PAPER, UM, STERILE PAPER THAT I TAKE FROM BAND-AIDS OVER THE HOTSPOTS AND THE CUTS, AND THEN I TAPE OVER THAT WITH DUCT TAPE, AND THEN I PUT ON MY SANDALS AND MY SHORTS AND I CLIMB OUT OF THE TENT.

AFTER TWO OR THREE DAYS IN THE GOUALOUGO TRIANGLE.

POOR JANE, WITH HER FEET TORN UP, SAID TO ME, DAVID Q, SHE KNOWS A LOT OF DAVID'S WHEN SHE CALLS ME, DAVID Q. DAVID Q, SHOW ME THAT TRICK, DO THAT TRICK ON MY FEET, DUCT TAPE MY FEET, SO I DUCT TAPE JANE'S FEET USING THIS METHOD AND SHE'S ABLE TO FUNCTION THAT DAY.

SHE'S VERY GRATEFUL, SHE SAYS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DAVID Q I'M GOOD NOW.

I CAN DO IT, BUT CAN I HAVE YOUR EXTRA ROLE OF DUCT TAPE.

YOU BET, JANE.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU KNOW, SHE'S SO PRECIOUS TO ALL OF US AND SHE WORKS SO HARD.

>>DAVID: SHE DOES, SHE DOES.

>>LORENE: BUT WHEN YOUR FEET AREN'T HAPPY, AIN'T NOBODY HAPPY, THANK YOU FOR HELPING HER FEET.

WELL WE HAVE SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT.

WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH DAVID QUAMMEN, ABOUT HIS WONDERFUL BOOKS AND HIS ADVENTURES.

I JUST WANT TO MENTION TWO BOOKS THAT SORT OF GO TOGETHER FOR ME.

THIS ONE SPILLOVER , WAS IT 2012?

>>DAVID: PUBLISHED IN 2012.

>>LORENE: IT IS ABSOLUTELY PROPHETIC, ABSOLUTELY STUNNING.

>>DAVID: SADLY, THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE YOU TOLD WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH CORONAVIRUS AND NOBODY LISTENED.

>>DAVID: IT WAS A BOOK ABOUT THE WAY VIRUSES AND OTHER PATHOGENS EMERGE FROM NON-HUMAN ANIMALS AND GET INTO HUMANS AND CAUSE WHAT WE CALL ZOONOTIC DISEASES, ANIMAL INFECTIONS IN HUMANS.

I WROTE THIS BACK, IT TOOK ME FIVE YEARS, SO, IT WAS PUBLISHED IN 2012, SO FIVE YEARS BEFORE THAT I WAS WORKING ON IT, TALKING TO THESE SCIENTISTS ABOUT THIS PROBLEM.

HUMAN CONTACT WITH WILD ANIMALS, DISRUPTIVE HUMAN CONTACT, LEADS TO THESE SPILLOVER, HENCE THE TITLE, OF THESE VIRUSES AND OTHER PATHOGENS TO HUMANS.

>>LORENE: THE SUBTITLE, I SHOULD HAVE READ IT IS, ANIMAL INFECTIONS AND THE NEXT HUMAN EPIDEMIC.

>>DAVID: HUMAN PANDEMIC.

>>LORENE: PANDEMIC, OH, PANDEMIC.

WELL, WE KNOW THAT NOW, BUT THIS WAS WHAT, 11 YEARS AGO AND YOU TOLD US.

>>DAVID: YES, SO AT THE END OF THE RESEARCH, I ASKED A NUMBER OF THESE TOP DISEASE SCIENTISTS, IS THERE A PANDEMIC COMING, A BIG ONE, IF SO, WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE?

AND I CHANNELED THE CONSENSUS OF WHAT I HEARD FROM THEM, AND THAT WAS, YES, THERE IS A PANDEMIC, THIS IS PUBLISHED IN 2012.

YES, THERE IS A PANDEMIC COMING, YES, IT WILL BE CAUSED BY A NEW VIRUS, A NOVEL VIRUS, YES, THAT VIRUS WILL COME OUT OF WILDLIFE.

WHAT KIND OF A VIRUS?

WELL, A VIRUS BELONGING TO ONE OF THE FAMILIES THAT ADAPT QUICKLY.

FOR INSTANCE, THE INFLUENZA FAMILY OR THE CORONAVIRUS FAMILY.

WHAT KIND OF ANIMAL WOULD IT COME OUT OF?

WELL, VERY POSSIBLY A BAT.

WHERE?

WELL, SOMEWHERE WHERE THERE'S HUMAN CONTACT WITH WILD ANIMALS THAT BATS MAY HAVE BEEN IN CONTACT WITH.

FOR INSTANCE, A MARKET, FOR INSTANCE, IN CHINA.

SO I SAID ALL THIS IN THAT BOOK, AND WHEN COVID BEGAN, I GOT A LOT OF CALLS FROM MEDIA SAYING, COME ON AND TELL US HOW YOU SAW THIS COMING.

YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE YOU A PROPHET?

AND I SAID, NO, I'M NOT A PROPHET.

THIS WAS OBVIOUS TO THE SCIENTISTS, IF YOU TALK TO THE RIGHT SCIENTISTS, POLITICAL LEADERS HEARD THESE WARNINGS AND DID NOT ACT ON THEM, FOR COMPLICATED REASONS.

BUT THE HANDWRITING WAS ON THE WALL.

>>LORENE: AND YOU CONTINUED IT IN, WHAT IS THE YEAR ON THIS, 2022?

>>DAVID: THIS WAS 2022, THIS WAS LAST OCTOBER, BREATHLESS.

>>LORENE: BREATHLESS, THE SCIENTIFIC RACE TO DEFEAT A DEADLY VIRUS.

AND THIS IS A PAGE TURNER, THIS IS A MURDER MYSTERY WITH UNFORTUNATELY HOW MANY MILLION WERE KILLED BY COVID.

>>DAVID: AND THE MAIN CHARACTER IS THE VIRUS ITSELF.

SARS, COV-2 AS THE CORONAVIRUS IS TECHNICALLY CALLED.

MY PUBLISHER, SIMON AND SCHUSTER, ASKED ME WHEN THE PANDEMIC GOT GOING, WOULD YOU PLEASE GIVE US A BOOK ON THE PANDEMIC, STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING, STOP WORKING ON THAT OTHER BOOK FOR US.

WE'LL GIVE YOU A NEW CONTRACT, WRITE US A PANDEMIC BOOK.

AND I THOUGHT HOW AM I GOING TO DO THIS, I CAN'T TRAVEL, I CAN'T GO WALKING THROUGH THE CONGO LIKE I DID WITH JANE AND WITH MIKE FAY.

I CAN'T FLY TO WUHAN RIGHT NOW AND AFTER THINKING ABOUT THAT AND WITH THE CLOCK TICKING ON MY DEADLINE, I DECIDED THAT I WOULD DO IT BY ZOOM, INTERVIEWING SCORES OF THE LEADING VIROLOGISTS AROUND THE WORLD AND EPIDEMIOLOGISTS AND PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS, BUT MOSTLY VIROLOGISTS WORKING ON THE VIRUS.

I WOULD MAKE THE VIRUS MY CENTRAL CHARACTER, I WOULD THEN WRITE ALSO ABOUT THE SCIENTISTS WHO STUDY IT, THEIR VIEWS OF THE VIRUS, THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF IT AND THEIR LIVES AS PEOPLE DURING THE PANDEMIC.

AND IT ENDED UP BEING 95 SCIENTISTS THAT I INTERVIEWED FROM TONY FAUCI TO WONDERFUL YOUNG PHD STUDENTS IN EDINBURGH THAT NOBODY HAD EVER HEARD OF, BUT PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT.

PEOPLE LIKE ANYA O'TOOLE AND VERITY HILL DOING IMPORTANT WORK THAT ALLOWED US TO RECOGNIZE AND TRACK THE VARIANTS.

AS THE VARIANTS, THE ALPHA VARIANT AND THE DELTA VARIANT, EVENTUALLY THE OMICRON VARIANT STARTED MOVING AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THEN I WROTE THE BOOK.

>>LORENE: WELL, IT BRINGS UP ONE QUESTION THAT THE NEWS SEEMS TO BE OBSESSED WITH, WHICH IS WHAT IS THE ORIGIN?

IS THE ORIGIN FROM NATURE OR FROM A LAB ACCIDENT?

>>DAVID: THAT IS THE QUESTION AND I'M WORKING ON A LONGISH PIECE RIGHT NOW FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES SUNDAY MAGAZINE.

SO I'VE SPENT THE LAST SEVEN WEEKS RE-INTERVIEWING SOME OF THE SCIENTISTS I INTERVIEWED BEFORE AND INTERVIEWING NEW ONES AGAIN BY ZOOM.

SEVERAL DOZEN OF THEM TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THIS ORIGIN CONTROVERSY THAT WE HAVE NOW.

WE HAVE CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS ON THIS, WE HAVE POPULAR ARTICLES IN MAGAZINES ARGUING THAT IT WAS A LAB LEAK.

WE HAVE NEWSPAPERS AROUND THE WORLD WHO TREAT THE WORDS LAB LEAK LIKE CATNIP AND YET WE HAVE A GREAT PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE SUGGESTING, NOT WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, BUT WITH A HIGH DEGREE OF PROBABILITY, THAT THE ORIGIN OF THIS VIRUS, AS WITH MANY OTHER VIRUSES THAT HAVE GOTTEN INTO US IN THE PAST, WAS A WILD ANIMAL, PROBABLY A BAT THAT PASSED THE VIRUS TO ANOTHER KIND OF WILD ANIMAL THAT SHOWED UP FOR SALE ALIVE IN THAT MARKET IN THE CITY OF WUHAN.

THE PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE, IN MY VIEW, IS ON THAT SIDE AND YET, DO WE NEED TO STILL TAKE THE IDEA OF LAB LEAK WITH SOME SERIOUSNESS, WELL, WE NEED TO KNOW AND WE DON'T KNOW YET FOR SURE.

IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT WE DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT TAKES DECADES TO SOLVE THAT KIND OF A MYSTERY.

WHERE DID THE VIRUS COME FROM?

WE NEED TO CONTINUE EXAMINING BOTH THOSE POSSIBILITIES, BUT THE PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE IS ON THE SIDE OF NATURAL ORIGINS, AND YET THERE'S GREAT PUBLIC LEANING, EAGERNESS TO EMBRACE THE IDEA OF LAB LEAK AND I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHY.

>>LORENE: WELL, BECAUSE THEY LOVE CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

>>DAVID: WELL, THAT'S RIGHT, THAT'S PART OF IT.

I AGREE WITH THAT.

THAT'S CERTAINLY PART OF IT.

>>LORENE: AND THAT THE GOVERNMENT KNOWS AND THEY'RE HIDING IT AND ALL.

>>DAVID: THAT'S RIGHT.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, YOU AND I CAN REMEMBER THE MOMENT IN 1963 WHEN WE HEARD THAT JOHN KENNEDY WAS KILLED AND HOW MANY YEARS WAS THAT AGO?

WELL WE CAN DO THE ARITHMETIC, BUT MANY, AND PEOPLE, SOME PEOPLE STILL PREFER TO BELIEVE THAT THAT WAS A CONSPIRACY.

NOW, SOME PEOPLE WHO SAY A LAB ACCIDENT OR A RESEARCH RELATED INCIDENT IS POSSIBLE, TAKE OFFENSE, WHEN YOU CALL THAT A CONSPIRACY THEORY, AND IT'S NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY UNTIL YOU START TO SAY, WELL, TONY FAUCI COLLUDED WITH THESE SCIENTISTS AND THEY'RE COVERING IT UP.

AND THEN YOU'RE SAYING THAT I BELIEVE THERE WERE CONSPIRACIES TO COVER THIS UP AND THEN THAT BECOMES A CONSPIRACY THEORY.

>>LORENE: WELL, INDEPENDENT OF THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES, I WOULD LOVE TO ASK YOU, YOU'VE WORKED SO MUCH WITH BOTH AIDS AND COVID AND THE HISTORY, WHAT ARE THE POPULAR MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THOSE TWO DISEASES, BECAUSE YOU'VE DONE MORE STUDY ON THIS THAN ALMOST ANYONE I KNOW.

SO THE PUBLIC HAS ACCEPTED, YOU KNOW, SOME CERTAIN FACTS TO BE TRUE.

ARE SOME OF THOSE FACTS NOT TRUE AND WHAT DO WE NEED TO KNOW?

>>DAVID: THERE ARE THINGS THAT I DISCUSS IN BREATHLESS , IN TERMS OF PUBLIC UNDERSTANDING OF COVID AND THE PANDEMIC.

FOR INSTANCE, PEOPLE, SOME PEOPLE EARLY ON SAID, WELL, HERD IMMUNITY, HERD IMMUNITY WILL TAKE CARE OF US WHEN ENOUGH PEOPLE GET INFECTED, WHEN ENOUGH PEOPLE RECOVER, WHEN ENOUGH PEOPLE DIE, THE VIRUS WILL SORT OF AUTOMATICALLY DISAPPEAR AS A PROBLEM BECAUSE OF HERD IMMUNITY.

AND THAT WAS ALWAYS WRONG WITH THIS KIND OF A VIRUS AND I EXPLAIN WHY IN THE BOOK.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I GO INTO IN THAT BOOK.

WITH AIDS, AS I EXPLORE IN THE BOOK SPILLOVER , AND I'LL ALSO IN MY LITTLE BOOK DRAWN FROM THAT, THE CHIMP AND THE RIVER , WHICH IS A BOOK ENTIRELY ABOUT THE ECOLOGICAL ORIGINS OF THE AIDS VIRUS.

THE STORY WE NOW KNOW BASED ON VERY GOOD SOLID MOLECULAR RESEARCH IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT PEOPLE THINK THEY KNOW.

THE HIV-1 VIRUS, WHICH IS THE PANDEMIC STRAIN OF THE AIDS VIRUS, GOT INTO HUMANS IN ABOUT 1908, GIVE OR TAKE A MARGIN OF ERROR, WE KNOW WHEN ROUGHLY, AND WE KNOW WHERE ROUGHLY, IN THE SOUTHEASTERN CORNER OF CAMEROON IN ABOUT 1908 DUE TO THE INTERACTION, PROBABLY A HUNTING INTERACTION BETWEEN ONE CHIMPANZEE AND ONE HUMAN.

A HUMAN, PROBABLY KILLED AND BUTCHERED A CHIMPANZEE, GOT CHIMPANZEE BLOOD INTO A CUT, IT WAS PROBABLY BECAUSE IT WAS A HUNTER, IN THOSE DAYS IT PROBABLY WAS A MAN.

HE GOT BLOOD INTO A CUT ON HIS HAND OR POSSIBLY A CUT ON HIS BACK IF HE WAS CARRYING THE CHIMPANZEE CARCASS ON HIS BACK, GOT BLOOD TO BLOOD CONTACT, THERE WAS A SIMIAN IMMUNODEFICIENCY VIRUS, S I V, THE PARTICULAR ONE FOR CHIMPS THAT GOT INTO THAT MAN.

AND WE KNOW FROM MOLECULAR WORK THAT THE ORIGINS OF, OF THE AIDS VIRUS WAS A SIMIAN IMMUNODEFICIENCY VIRUS AND THAT IT WAS IN HUMANS AS EARLY AS 1908 IN THIS SOUTHEASTERN CORNER OF CAMEROON.

BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE SIMIAN IMMUNODEFICIENCY VIRUS IN CHIMPANZEES TODAY MOST CLOSELY MATCHES THE AIDS VIRUS.

>>LORENE: WOW, I DIDN'T KNOW, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

THERE'S SO MUCH I NEED TO KNOW FROM YOU.

I JUST WANT TO MENTION THIS OTHER BOOK, TELL US BRIEFLY WHAT'S IN IT, THE TANGLED TREE: A RADICAL NEW HISTORY OF LIFE.

>>DAVID: THIS WAS A BOOK THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN 2018.

I SPENT ABOUT FIVE YEARS ON THAT ONE.

IT'S ABOUT AGAIN, THE USE OF MOLECULAR BIOLOGY.

AND I EXPLAINED MOLECULAR BIOLOGY.

I'M NOT A MOLECULAR BIOLOGIST.

I'M NOT EVEN A SCIENTIST.

I'M AN OUTSIDER.

SO TRUST ME, I KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE NOT TO KNOW THIS STUFF.

IT'S ABOUT MOLECULAR BIOLOGY THAT HAS REVEALED THAT THE SHAPE OF THE TREE OF LIFE, SORT OF, YOU KNOW, THE GENEALOGICAL TREE OF HUMANS AND OTHER LIFE ON THIS PLANET FOR THE LAST 3.8 BILLION YEARS IS SHAPED MUCH DIFFERENTLY FROM WHAT WE THOUGHT IT WAS.

>>LORENE: SO WE ACTUALLY THOUGHT OF IT AS A TREE WITH BRANCHES.

>>DAVID: WE THOUGHT OF IT AS A TREE WITH BRANCHES AND WHAT DISCOVERIES BEGINNING IN 1977 COMING OUT OF THE LAB OF A SCIENTIST NAMED CARL WOESE HAVE REVEALED IS THAT THIS TREE IS NOT A TREE.

THE HISTORY OF LIFE IS SHAPED, IN A PARADOXICAL WAY, WITH SOME LIMBS RUNNING SIDEWAYS INTO OTHER LIMBS, GENES MOVING FROM ONE LINEAGE SIDEWAYS INTO ANOTHER, GENES FROM VIRUSES MOVING INTO THE HUMAN GENOME.

GENES FROM INSECTS MOVING INTO THE REPTILE GENOME, SOMETIMES CARRIED BY VIRUSES THROUGH VIRAL INFECTION, PICKING UP A GENE AND DROPPING IT AGAIN IN ANOTHER KIND OF ANIMAL SO THAT IT BECOMES PART OF THE HEREDITARY LINEAGE OF THAT ANIMAL.

IT'S SOMETHING CALLED HORIZONTAL GENE TRANSFER, GENES MOVING SIDEWAYS, HORIZONTALLY RATHER THAN VERTICALLY ALONG THE LINEAGES OF HEREDITY AS WE ALWAYS THOUGHT.

SO IT'S VERY COUNTERINTUITIVE, BUT IT CHANGES THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF LIFE.

>>LORENE: I'M KIND OF GOBSMACKED IN A WAY.

I'M ALWAYS CURIOUS ABOUT THINGS AND THIS IS SUCH A NEW CONCEPT FOR ME, I'M GOING TO HAVE TO READ THIS IN DEPTH AND FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON.

BUT WHAT A GIFT YOU GIVE US.

>>DAVID: I WAS GOBSMACKED WHEN I HEARD ABOUT THIS TOO, LORENE.

AND THAT'S WHY BACK IN, WHATEVER, 2013, RIGHT AFTER SPILLOVER , I SAID TO SIMON AND SCHUSTER, WELL, I'D LIKE TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THE TREE OF LIFE AND THEY SAID, GO FOR IT.

AND SO I WROTE THIS.

>>LORENE: RIGHT, RIGHT.

WELL, ALL OF YOUR BOOKS ARE SO WONDERFUL.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS DAVID QUAMMEN.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CURIOSITY AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRECISION OF THOUGHT BECAUSE YOU CAN TAKE VERY COMPLICATED AND INTRIGUING TOPICS, BUT YOU MAKE THEM VERY CLEAR AND YOU DON'T DUMB ANYTHING DOWN.

YOU BRING US UP TO COMPREHENDING A VERY COMPLICATED SCIENTIFIC THEORY AND MORE >>DAVID: WELL, MY FEELING IS THAT IF I CAN UNDERSTAND IT, THE AUDIENCE CAN UNDERSTAND IT.

I'M NOT A SCIENTIST EITHER AND I TALK TO PEOPLE AS NON-SCIENTISTS.

I TRY TO ADDRESS PEOPLE AS THOUGH I'M WRITING FOR ONE INDIVIDUAL, I'M WRITING FOR YOU, LORENE, OR I'M WRITING FOR ONE OF YOUR VIEWERS.

>>LORENE: IT FEELS VERY PERSONAL WHEN I READ IT.

>>DAVID: I'M GLAD.

>>LORENE: LET ME SHOW A COUPLE OF YOUR BOOKS AGAIN.

THIS ONE, HONEST TO GOODNESS, YOU WERE WAY AHEAD OF YOUR TIME.

SPILLOVER AND OF COURSE BREATHLESS: THE SCIENTIFIC RACE TO DEFEAT A DEADLY VIRUS AND THIS NEW ONE THAT I JUST LOVE, THE HEARTBEAT OF THE WILD.

THIS IS A COLLECTION OF YOUR WONDERFUL ESSAYS AND ARTICLES.

SO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>DAVID: YOU'RE SO WELCOME.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, LORENE FOR THE CONVERSATION AND FOR YOUR INTEREST.

>>LORENE: WELL, I HOPE YOU COME BACK BECAUSE WE'VE JUST SCRATCHED THE SURFACE.

>>DAVID: I'D LOVE TO.

>>LORENE: WHAT ARE YOU WORKING ON NOW?

>>DAVID: WELL, I'M WORKING ON THIS PIECE FOR THE TIMES MAGAZINE ABOUT THE ORIGIN AND THEN I WILL GO BACK TO THE BOOK THAT I WAS WORKING ON FOR SIMON AND SCHUSTER BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, WHICH IS A BOOK ON CANCER AS AN EVOLUTIONARY PHENOMENON.

>>LORENE: WHOA, I'LL STAY TUNED.

THANK YOU, DAVID >>DAVID: YOU'RE VERY WELCOME.

>>LORENE: AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM