>>> WE TURN NOW TO WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE, AND WHAT OUR GUEST CALLS THE MIST OF MAKING IT.

SAMHITA MUKHOPADHYAY RECALLS CLIMBING THE CORPORATE CAREER LADDER.

AND SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW THE GIRL BOSS CULTURE CAN BE, IN FACT, TOXIC, EXPLOITIVE, AND EVEN SEXIST.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

SAMHITA, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> SO EXCITED TO BE HERE.

>> PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW THE MAGS WILL KNOW YOUR NAME.

YOU WERE THE EDITOR OF "TEEN VOGUE," IS ESPECIALLY WHEN "TEEN VOGUE" HAD A BIGGER PLACE IN THE CULTURE.

YOU HAD THE BIG SHINY OFFICE, YOU HAD FRONT ROW SEATS AT THE SHOWS, I MEAN, THESE ARE SOME -- THE FASHION SHOWS, I MEAN.

THESE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS SOME PEOPLE DREAM ABOUT.

SO, WHEN DID YOU START TO SAY TO YOURSELF, THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY WHAT I WANT?

OR AT LEAST TO QUESTION IT.

>> ABSOLUTELY BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, I THINK THERE WAS THIS NARRATIVE THAT IF YOU HAVE A PERFECT JOB, YOU JUST WORK AS HARD AS POSSIBLE, AND EVERYTHING YOU'RE SACRIFICING IS WORTH IT, BECAUSE THAT'S THE PRICE OF SUCCESS.

AND WHILE I WAS SITTING FRONT ROW, I WAS LIVING A DREAM, IT JUST WASN'T NECESSARILY MINE.

AND I WAS STRUGGLING WITH A LOT OF THINGS, YOU KNOW, BEHIND THE INSTAGRAM PICTURE, WHERE I WAS, YOU KNOW, I WAS DEPRESSED, I WAS UNHAPPY, I WASN'T TAKING CARE OF MYSELF, I WAS DEALING WITH A LOT OF FAMILY ISSUES THAT I HAD TO KIND OF -- SOME CARETAKING ISSUES, AND I STARTED TO REALIZE IN THAT MOMENT THAT THERE WAS A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN WHAT I THOUGHT IT MEANT TO MAKE IT, AND WHAT IT ACTUALLY WOULD MEAN TO MAKE IT FOR MYSELF.

BUT I DIDN'T REALLY HAVE WHAT I CALL, YOU KNOW, THE SUBTITLE OF THE BOOK, A RECKONING AROUND IT, UNTIL THE PANDEMIC HIT.

AND I COULDN'T GO INTO THE OFFICE, AND THE GLITZ AND GLAMOUR OF FRONT ROW SEATS AND, YOU KNOW, DINNERS ON THE TOWN, AND EVENTS AT NIGHT AND, YOU KNOW, DESIGNERS SENDING YOU CLOTHES, ONCE THAT FADED, AND IT WAS JUST ME AND A ZOOM SCREEN AND A DISGRUNTLED STAFF, I REALIZED THAT THE JOB WASN'T NECESSARILY MAKING ME HAPPY.

AND I WASN'T ALONE, RIGHT?

MILLIONS OF WOMEN STARTED TO ASK THE SAME QUESTION ABOUT WHY ARE WE WORKING SO HARD, WHY ARE WE QUOTE UNQUOTE BEING PUSHED TO BE SO AMBITIOUS WHEN ULTIMATELY WE'RE TIRED AND BURNED OUT AND WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY SEEING THE FINANCIAL OR REALLY, YOU KNOW, MATERIAL SUCCESS THAT WE SHOULD BE SEEING COMPARED TO HOW MUCH WE'RE WORKING.

>> DID THAT REALIZATION COME ALL AT ONCE, LIKE, WAS IT A EUREKA MOMENT OR WAS IT A MORE GRADUAL THING, LIKE, I'M JUST CURIOUS WHAT THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF IT WERE.

>> THERE WERE MULTIPLE MOMENTS LEADING UP TO THAT MOMENT, AND I THINK A LOT OF WOMEN WERE FEELING, YOU KNOW, FROM WHAT I TRACE IN THE BOOK, FROM THE, YOU KNOW, 2014, WHERE THERE WAS THIS BUZZ AND YOU HAD THE KIND OF YEAR OF THE GIRL BOSS AND THE YEAR OF THE WOMAN AND EVERYBODY WAS, YOU KNOW, SAYING, LIKE, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE IF YOU WORK HARD, JUST LEAN IN, RIGHT?

JUST GIRL BOSS THROUGH IT, YOU KNOW, GET THE RIGHT PLANNER, BE ORGANIZED.

WE HAD UBER, AMAZON, ZAPPOS, EVERYTHING.

WE WERE UNSTOPPABLE.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT FOR ME, PERSONALLY, WHAT HAD HAPPENED WAS, I LOST A JOB IN 2017, AND I WAS QUITE TRAUMATIZED BY THAT EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE I WORKED REALLY HARD TO GET THAT JOB, I DIDN'T REALLY SEE THE WRITING ON THE WALL, LOOKING BACK, I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE, AND IT WAS AN UNSAY MOAN YUS LAYOFF, I TOOK IT PERSONALLY, AND I TOOK IT AS A REFERENDUM ON ALL THE HARD WORK THAT I HAD DONE AND ALL OF THE SACRIFICES THAT I HAD MADE IN MY CAREER, RATHER THAN TAKE A BREAK AND REFLECT ON IT, I DOVE HEAD FIRST INTO THE "TEEN VOGUE" JOB AND I DESCRIBE IT AS A REBOUND RELATIONSHIP, WHERE I'M LIKE, ONE PLACE DIDN'T WANT ME AND A MUCH SEXIER PLACE DID.

AND I WAS SO EXCITED ABOUT THAT, NOT REALIZING THAT ENTIRE TIME THAT I KIND OF CARRIED THAT TRAUMA, THAT WORKPLACE TRAUMA AND THAT DEEP DISAPPOINTMENT WITH ME, AND THAT STARTED TO, YOU KNOW, REALLY CORRODE WHILE I WAS IN THE JOB AND IN THIS HIGH PRESSURE JOB.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WAS DRIVING YOU TO BEGIN WITH?

WHAT'S THE ROOT OF THIS DEEP STEM THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

>> PART OF IT, I BELIEVE, IS GENERATIONAL.

I WAS RAISED IN A TIME WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE ETHOS WAS, WORK HARD, PLAY HARD.

IF YOU WORK HARD, YOU GET THAT PAYDAY AND YOU CAN PLAY REALLY HARD.

I'M ALSO THE CHILD OF IMMIGRANTS, AND THERE WAS THIS IDEA THAT I'M LUCKY TO BE HERE, AND I SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF EVERY OPPORTUNITY THAT'S PUT MY WAY.

AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ME AND A MAN THAT GETS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY IS THE HUSTLE THAT I PUT INTO IT AND HOW HARD I WORK.

SO, I FUNDAMENTALLY BELIEVED.

AND AT THE CORE OF IT, IT'S SOMETHING THAT I REALLY UNCOVERED WHILE WRITING THE BOOK, I DID BELIEVE THAT I DIDN'T DESERVE THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT WERE COMING MY WAY.

AND SO, I WAS COMPLETELY COMFORTABLE SELF-SACRIFICING TO KEEP THOSE OPPORTUNITIES.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS I REALLY LEARNED IN REPORTING AT THE BOOK IS HOW MANY WOMEN AND HOW MANY WOMEN OF COLOR FELT THE SAME WAY.

THAT RATHER THAN AN ORGANIZATION BE LUCKY TO HAVE THEM FOR THEIR HARD WORK AND FOCUS AND DIVERSE PERSPECTIVE THEY MIGHT BE BRINGING, THEY SHOULD FEEL GRATEFUL.

AND THERE ARE MANY INFRASTRUCTURES WITHIN THE WORKPLACE THAT KEEP YOU FEELING THAT WAY, RIGHT?

TO HAVE YOU FEEL ISOLATED IN YOUR OWN AMBITION, CONVINCING WOMEN THAT THERE'S NO HURDLE THAT'S STRUCTURAL, THAT A LITTLE HUSTLE CAN'T OVERCOME.

THAT THE RIGHT DAY PLANNER OR THE RIGHT EXERCISE CLASS OR THE RIGHT TUPPERWEAR SET CANNOT HELP YOU ORGANIZE YOUR LIFE AND OVERCOME ANY HURDLE, WHEN WE KNOW MANY OF THEM ARE STRUCTURAL.

THE PAY GAP IS A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM.

LACK OF EFFECTIVE FAMILY LEAVE IS A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM.

WE INTERNALIZE THAT WE NEED TO OVERCOME THOSE HURDLES BY WORKING HARD.

SO, THAT WAS REALLY THE ROOT OF HOW I STARTED TO BELIEVE THAT THAT'S WHY I HAD TO SACRIFICE SO MUCH TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN MY CAREER.

>> CONSERVATIVES HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR SOME TIME THAT REALLY THIS IS FEMINISM'S FAULT, THAT THEY SOLD WOMEN A BILL OF GOODS, AND THAT THEY SHOULD KIND OF REORIENT TOWARD THE HOME.

>> THAT WAS SOMETHING I WAS REALLY FASCINATED WITH IN THE BOOK, BECAUSE I THINK WE TALK A LOT ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE LAST TEN YEARS, BUT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE '60s AND '70s, AND EVEN THE EARLY '80s, BOTH FROM A POLICY PERSPECTIVE, BUT IN TERMS OF WHERE THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT WAS AND WHAT WAS ACTUALLY PUSHED TO WOMEN AS THE NARRATIVE OF THE WORKPLACE.

SO, YOU HAD THE BETTY FORDANS OF THE WORLD WHO SAID WOMEN THAT WENT TO COLLEGE, THEY BECAME HOUSEWIVES AND THEY ARE MISERABLE AND WE NEED TO SUPPORT THEM TO GO OUT INTO THE WORK FORCE.

THAT WAS FOR AFFLUENT WHITE WOMEN, BECAUSE WE ALL KNOLL FOR THOSE WOMEN TO GO INTO THE WORK FORCE, WOMEN OF COLOR HAD TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHURN, FLIGHT WHO MANY OF THEM WERE ALREADY WORK, AND WOULD LOVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO STAY HOME AND BE WITH THEIR FAMILIES, BUT DIDN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO, BECAUSE THEY WERE OUT WORKING.

LATER ON, I WAS VERY FASCINATED BY THE WRITER HELEN GIRLY BROWN, WHO WAS THE LONGTIME EDITOR OF "COSMOPOLITAN" MAGAZINE.

AND SHE WROTE A BOOK IN THE '60s THAT MADE HER QUITE FAMOUS.

THE BOOK SHE WROTE IN THE '80s WAS CALLED "HAVING IT ALL."

THAT BOOK WAS ABOUT HOW WOMEN COULD HAVE IT ALL.

SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW TO STILL BE, YOU KNOW, AN ATTRACTIVE WOMEN WHILE BEING SUCCESSFUL IN HER CAREER.

SHE WASN'T TALKING ABOUT HAVING CHILDREN.

SHE DIDN'T HAVE CHILDREN.

>> THERE IS ONE THING SHE'S KNOWN FOR, WHICH IS SORT OF CELEBRATING A WOMAN AS A SEXUAL BEING.

AS YOU POINT OUT IN YOUR BOOK, MY READ OF IT NOW WAS SEXUAL IN MEN'S TERMS, LIKE, BEING ATTRACTIVE TO MEN.

WHY WAS SHE SO FASCINATING TO YOU?

>> TO ME, THAT WAS AN EXAMPLE OF TAKING THE VALUES OF FEMINISM, BUT TRYING TO PUSH THEM ON A BROADER AUDIENCE.

AS SUCH, SHE REACHED A BROWDER AUDIENCE.

SHE WAS REALLY TALKING TO PINK COLLAR WORKERS, SECRETARIES IN THE CITY, YOU KNOW, WOMEN THAT WERE WORKING AS TEACHERS ASSISTANTS, KNOW, WOMEN THAT HADN'T REALLY BEEN SPOKEN TO BY THE BROADER MOVEMENT.

AND IT WORKED.

PEOPLE WERE VERY COMPELLED BY THE MESSAGING.

EVEN IF THE ORIGIN OF IT IS COMPLICATED, THE WAY THAT WE TALK ABOUT IT STILL FRAMES HOW WE TALK ABOUT WOMEN AND THE WORKPLACE.

AND SO, I GUESS TO YOUR POINT ABOUT WHAT IS THE ROOT OF HOW WE TALK ABOUT THIS, WHEN WE TRANSITIONED FROM FEMINISM AS A COLLECTIVE MOVEMENT, WORKERS RIGHTS AS A COLLECTIVE MOVEMENT, TO THIS INDIVIDUALISTIC IDEA THAT WHEN YOU WORK HARD ENOUGH, YOU CAN GET AHEAD, WOMEN START TO BECOME MORE COMPETITIVE WITH EACH OTHER.

THERE WAS THIS IDEA THAT IF I WORK HARD, I CAN GET THAT SEAT AT THE TABLE.

AND I THINK THAT, IN MANY WAYS, IS THE ROOT OF IT, WHERE AS, YOU KNOW, A FEMINISM OF THE WORKPLACE, WHICH COULD REALLY BE ABOUT OUR COLLECTIVE ORGANIZING, TURNED INTO AN INDIVIDUAL PURSUIT, WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE WINK OF AN EYE AND WEARING THE RIGHT SUIT AND TAKING THE RIGHT MEETINGS WOULD HELP YOU GET AHEAD AT WORK.

AND THE ADVICE IS NOT FULLY WRONG.

LIKE, WE ALL KNOW THERE ARE CERTAIN STRATEGIES WE CAN USE IN THE WORKPLACE THAT WILL GET US AHEAD.

BUT WHAT DOES THAT DO FOR WOMEN AS A WHOLE?

>> I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT INDIVIDUALISM HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF THIS CULTURE, SO, I GUESS I'M WONDERING, LIKE, WHY IS ANYBODY SURPRISED THAT A CERTAIN COHORT OF WOMEN LIKE THAT STORY FOR THEMSELVES?

RIGHT?

>> I DO THINK THAT FOR SOME WOMEN, IT IS THE ONLY NARRATIVE, RIGHT?

THERE ISN'T THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONNECT WITH OTHER WOMEN AROUND THEIR EXPERIENCES.

YOU DON'T -- NOT EVERY WORKPLACE CAN BE UNIONIZED.

ESPECIALLY WHEN I WORKED AT "TEEN VOGUE," YOUNG WOMEN OF COLOR, THEY REALLY BOUGHT INTO HUSTLE CULTURE AND GIRL BOSSING, BECAUSE FOR THEM, THAT WAS A CONCRETE WAY FOR THEM TO GET OUT OF THE LIVED EXPERIENCING THAT BY HAVING, AND TO CHANGE THEIR MATERIAL CONDITIONS.

MY ARGUMENT IS A LITTLE BIT BROADER THAN THAT, RIGHT?

I THINK WE KNOW THAT THE INDIVIDUALISM IS THE SPIRIT OF THE AMERICAN DREAM, RIGHT?

WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IS PEOPLE ARE BECOMING VERY CRITICAL OF THAT, BECAUSE THEY'RE LOOKING AT OLDER GENERATIONS, ESPECIALLY YOUNGER PEOPLE, THEY'RE LIKE, WELL, YOU DID EVERYTHING YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DO, YOU LEANED IN, YOU GIRL BOSSED, YOU TRIED TO HAVE IT ALL, AND YOU STILL DOWN OWN A HOUSE, YOU STILL HAVE STUDENT DEBT, AND I'M NOT GOING TO SIGN UP FOR THAT.

THAT IS NOT WHAT I'M GOING TO SIGN UP FOR THAT V. AND SO I THINK WE ARE AT THIS MOMENT OF A RECKONING, WHERE WE'RE LOOKING AROUND, SAYING, WHY ARE WE WORKING LIKE THIS IF IT'S NOT GOING TO PAY OFF AND ACTUALLY GIVE US THE HAPPINESS AND SUPPORT AND STABILITY THAT WE DESERVE AND NEED TO LIVE SUCCESSFUL AND FASHIONAL LIVES?

ARE MEN HAVING SUCH A GREAT TIME?

>> I DON'T THINK MEN ARE HAVING A PARTICULARLY GREAT TIME.

PART OF MY INTEREST IN WOMEN IS PART MEMOIR, SO IT IS ALSO MY OWN EXPERIENCE AS A WOMAN NAVIGATING CORPORATE WORKPLACES.

WOMEN ARE STILL PAID LESS ON THE DOLLAR, WOMEN STILL DO THE MAJORITY OF CARE WORK.

YOU KNOW, MOTHERS ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MAJORITY OF CARE WORK, AND REALLY, TO ME, MOTHERS ARE WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE CRACKS ARE REALLY STARTING TO SHOW, BETWEEN OUR ABILITY TO TAKE CARE OF OUR FAMILIES AND HAVE HEALTHY FAMILIES AND OUR ABILITY TO BE WORKING AND BE AMBITIOUS IN THE WORKPLACE.

>> YOU TALKED WITH A NUMBER OF DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION EXPERTS FOR THIS BOOK.

THAT'S A TERM THAT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE HEARD, ESPECIALLY IF THEY DO WORK IN ONE OF THESE BIG CORPORATIONS, AND OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S BEEN A POLITICAL BACKLASH AGAINST THESE CONCEPTS.

BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK THOSE CONVERSATIONS ADD TO WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THEM?

>> YOU KNOW, INTERESTINGLY, THERE IS NEW RESEARCH THAT A LOT OF THE DNI PROGRAMS FROM THAT TIME HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVE, BUT SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN ABANDONED.

AND WE'RE SEEING THAT, RIGHT?

WE'RE SEEING THE LAID OFF DEI OFFICER THAT WAS THE FIRST TO GET CUT IN THE LATEST ROUND OF BUDGET CUTS.

AND WHAT'S BEEN UNDERSTOOD AS THE BUSINESS CASE FOR DIVERSITY, WE'RE LEARNING IT'S A LOT MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT.

NOT ONLY IS THERE A BUSINESS CASE FOR DIVERSITY, BUT DIVERSE ENVIRONMENTS MAKE FOR BETTER WORKPLACES.

THEY MAKE FOR AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A VARIETY OF PEOPLE TO FEEL INCLUDED.

BUT THERE'S A CULTURAL VALUE.

AND WE KNOW THERE'S A CHANGING FACE OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION.

WE WANT TO INSTEP GRATE AND EMPOWER ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT TYPES OF LEADERS, BECAUSE WHEN WE DO, WE SEE OUR TEAMS WORK BETTER TOGETHER, THEY'RE MORE COMFORTABLE WITH EACH OTHER, THEY'RE BETTER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE ALL VALUES THAT ARE STARTING TO BECOME A LOT MORE IMPORTANT IN COMPANIES, AND SO, I WAS JUST VERY FASCINATED BY THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT HAS GONE INTO THE INDUSTRY, YET HOW AT THE END OF THE DAY, SO MANY WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR STILL MAKE LESS MONEY.

AND SO, WHAT IS THE GAP THERE?

WHY ARE WE SAYING, WE'RE INVESTED IN THIS, AND THEN ULTIMATELY, WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY SEEING THE MATERIAL SUCCESS OF THAT?

AND SO, THAT'S WHY I TALKED TO SO MANY EXPERTS.

I WAS FASCINATED BY HOW, YOU KNOW, EMPLOYEES AND, REALLY, COMPANIES, WERE TAKING ON THESE INITIATIVES, BUT WHY IN SO MANY INSTANCES THEY WEREN'T ULTIMATELY EFFECTIVE?

>> THERE'S A QUOTE FROM THE BOOK THAT I WANTED TO RUN BY YOU THAT STRUCK A LOT OF US WHO READ IT.

YOU SAID, MAKING IT IS A MYTH TO ME.

NOT BECAUSE I DIDN'T MAKE IT, I DID MAKE IT, AND I'M STILL MAKING IT, I'M STILL ON A HAMP STER WHEEL.

I STILL WORK TOO MUCH.

I STILL HAVE SUCH A HARD TIME DOING ALL THE THINGS THAT NEED TO GET DONE, LET ALONE BEING ABLE TO THINK ABOUT THE BIGGER PICTURE.

I HAVE LONG BEEN IN A PRISON OF MY OWN AMBITION, STUCK WITHOUT A NARRATIVE FOR MOVING FORWARD, AND THE CHANGE I SEEK, THE CHANGE WE SEEK, IS NOT GOING TO BE ACCOMPLISHED WITH DAY PLANNERS, IT'S GOING TO COME FROM DEEP PERSONAL AND REFLECTIVE TRANSFORMATIONS.

THERE'S A LOT THERE, BUT SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> THE QUOTE AROUND BEING IN A PRISON OF MY OWN AMBITION IS SOMETHING THAT'S COME UP QUITE A BIT, AND, YOU KNOW, REALLY WHAT I MEAN TO SAY THERE IS, MY AMBITIONS OUTWEIGHED WHAT WERE THE RESOURCES, TOOLS, AND STRUCTURES AROUND ME TO SUPPORT THOSE AMBITIONS.

SO, WHILE I MAY HAVE BEEN VERY AMBITIOUS, AND I WANTED TO, YOU KNOW, WRITE BOOKS, WRIT ARTICLES, HAVE THIS GREAT JOB, I WAS LIMITED BY THE FACT THAT I DIDN'T HAVE ANY TYPE OF REAL SUPPORT TO HELP ME WITH THAT, BOTH AT WORK, WITH MY FAMILY, AND, YOU KNOW, JUST LITERALLY HOW MANY HOURS ARE IN A DAY.

AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING WITH, WHERE THEY ARE AMBITIOUS, THEY WANT TO DO AS MUCH AS THEY CAN POSSIBLY DO, BUT THERE'S LIMITATIONS TO OUR TIME, TO OUR MATERIAL RESOURCES.

TO OUR ABILITY TO -- OUR FLEXIBILITY IN THE WORKPLACE, OUR ABILITY TO DO ANY OF THE THINGS WE REALLY WANT TO DO.

AND THAT IS WHERE THE REFLECTION IN THE BOOK REALLY STARTED, WHERE I REALIZED THAT I HAD INTERNALIZED THIS IDEA THAT IF I WORKED HARD ENOUGH, I WOULD MAKE IT.

AND I DID.

IN A LOT OF WAYS, RIGHT, I MADE IT.

BUT I ALSO WAS NOT HAPPY IN DOING THAT AND I DID NOT SEE THE KIND OF SUCCESS THAT I THOUGHT I WOULD.

AND FOR ME, THERE WAS TWO PIECES TO THAT THAT I REALIZED.

THE FIRST WAS, REDEFINING HOW WE SEE SUCCESS, AND REDEFINING WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS TO MAKE IT.

BUT THE SECOND WAS RECOGNIZING THAT I ALONE WAS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO OVERCOME EVERY HURDLE AND EXPERIENCE THAT I EXPERIENCED IN THE WORKPLACE, THAT IT WAS GOING TO TAKE ME REACHING OUT, BUILDING COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THAT BE SOME TYPE OF WORKER ORGANIZING, WHATEVER THAT MAY BE, TO CHANGE MATERIAL CONDITIONS FOR EMPLOYEES.

>> AND YOU ARE ALSO STILL A BOSS.

I'M WONDERING IF THIS WHOLE KIND OF E MOTIONAL, MENTAL, SPIRITUAL, JOURNEY THAT YOU'VE BEEN ON HAS CHANGED THE WAY YOU BOSS.

>> ABSOLUTELY, IT HAS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE REALLY LEARNED THROUGH MANAGEMENT IS THE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT YOU CAN BE A MANAGER THAT IS MINDFUL OF THIS MOMENT, AND ALL OF THE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT PEOPLE ARE INTERACTING WITH WORK, AND HOW TO ACTUALLY HAVE THEM FEEL INCLUDED AND FEEL OKAY ABOUT WHATEVER THEY'RE GRAPPLING WITH IN THEIR LIFE, THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO SACRIFICE EVERYTHING FOR THEIR JOB.

I'M REALLY HANDS-ON IN TERPS OF FEEDBACK, I'M REALLY STRUCTURED IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT I HAVE AROUND EXPECTATIONS, WHAT PEOPLE ARE EXPECTED TO DO ON THE JOB, AND ALSO, TO CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE PEOPLE FEEL COMFORTABLE GIVING ME FEEDBACK.

SO, IT'S A RELATIONSHIP, NOT A ONE-SIDED, YOU KNOW, DICTATORSHIP, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE WAYS I'VE TRIED TO ACCOUNT FOR THIS MOMENT.

BUT I'VE ALSO ACCEPTED THAT I ALONE CAN'T FIX THIS MOMENT.

I CAN'T FIX HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE MISERABLE AT WORK RIGHT NOW.

I CAN'T FIX THE KIND OF MONEY I HAVE ACCESS TO, THE TYPES OF RAISES THAT I CAN GIVE.

SO, THOSE ARE THE PLACES THAT I DO STEP BACK.

AND I'M QUITE TRANSPARENT ABOUT IT.

I SAY, HERE'S WHAT'S POSSIBLE, HERE'S WHAT I CAN DO.

IF YOU WANT TO DO THIS JOB, HERE'S THE REALITY OF THE JOB, HERE'S HOW I CAN MAKE IT BETTER, BUT THESE ARE THE DECISIONS YOU NEED TO MAKE.

AND THE MORE FRANK I AM AND IS THE MORE HONEST I AM, THE MORE ENGAGED FRANKLY, COMMITTED MY EMPLOYEES TEND TO BE.

>> BEFORE WE GO, THINK ABOUT THAT YOUNG WOMAN THAT WAS SOLD A BILL OF GOODS AND NEEDED TO GET KNOCKED AROUND, BEFORE US REALIZED IT WAS A BILL OF GOODS.

CAN YOU THINK BACK TO THAT PERSON?

WHAT WOULD YOU THINK, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

>> AT THE TIME, I TOLD MYSELF TO FAKE IT UNTIL I MADE IT, AND WHAT I WOULD SAY NOW IS, DON'T FEEL THAT YOU'RE LUCKY TO BE THERE, THEY'RE LUCKY TO HAVE YOU AS MUCH AS YOU'RE LUCKY TO BE THERE, AND THAT THERE'S ALWAYS AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE AN IMPACT, AND BE INVESTED IN YOUR WORK, BUT BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF ABOUT WHAT YOUR LIMITATIONS ARE, AND WHAT YOU'RE ABLE TO ACTUALLY DO WITH THE RESOURCES THAT YOU HAVE, AND DON'T BE SO HARD ON YOURSELF WHEN YOU'RE NOT MEETING WHAT YOU FEEL SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE, TO REALLY CALIBRATE WHAT SUCCESS IS POSSIBLE IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE A LOT OF CONTROL OVER MANY OF THE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING AROUND YOU.

I THINK THAT'S THE ADVICE I WOULD PROBABLY GIVE.

AND THE ADVICE THAT I REALLY HOPE PEOPLE FEEL FROM THIS BOOK.

BECAUSE IT'S NOT AN ADVICE BOOK, BUT WHAT I HOPE PEOPLE GET OUT OF IT IS THAT THEY FEEL A LITTLE LESS ALONE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS REALLY HAPPENED WITH WORKPLACE FEMINISM, OR WHAT ACADEMICS HAVE CALLED THIS KIND OF THING, IS THE BELIEF THAT YOU CAN PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOT STRAPS AND WITH HARD WORK, YOU CAN OVERCOME ANY OBSTACLE YOU FACE, AND THAT HAS LEFT MANY OF US FEELING ALONE AND FEELING LIKE FAILURES, BOTH IN OUR FAMILIES AND IN OUR CAREERS, AND WE ARE ALONE CAN'T ACTUALLY CHANGE MANY OF THE STRUCTURES THAT WE'RE FACING, IT'S GOING TO REQUIRE COLLECTIVE, WHETHER THAT'S ORGANIZING, TALKING, CONVERSATIONS, WORK WIVES, WHATEVER THAT MAY BE, WE NEED COLLECTIVE COMMUNITY TO OVERCOME MANY OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE EXPERIENCING IN THE WORKPLACE.

>> SAMHITA, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.