>> The cost of police misconduct is a growing problem in Chicago.

Taxpayers have already spent 189 million dollars just this year to resolve misconduct lawsuits.

That's compared to 107 million dollars all of last year.

Our next 2 guests argue different ways of approaching that problem.

One by addressing the staggering clip of lawsuits.

The other addressing police misconduct.

Here with more on this, our Paul Vallas, senior fellow at the Illinois Policy Institute and former candidate for Chicago mayor and Antonio Romanucci, a civil rights attorney who represented George Floyd's family and other families impacted by police misconduct.

Gentlemen, thanks to both for joining us.

Thank Paul Vallas, starting with you, please.

What do you think are some of the factors that are driving these police misconduct settlements, both volume and settlement about?

Well, if you're an early jury says is part of additional limit is no caps.

There's no.

I mean, there's one.

>> I'm in it.

Some of these firms, it was a recent settlement for 2 individuals, 120 million dollars.

There was another settlement, 50 million dollars for 10 years.

For one individual.

There's a bottom line is there's just simply no limit on the lawsuits all together.

Now there are other states should do have limits who do have structure governing those lawsuits and even the federal government to, you know, permits there to be a cap on my private lawsuits things like that.

But the problem with cities municipalities as government becomes a deep pocket.

And I think that's what you're seeing it's not a runaway jury.

Is the city's settling some of these before they come to a jury weather settling because this perception here that if they don't settle it because there's no limitations, they're going to have to pay more.

And, you know, let me point out that that there has I think the city's Pan 1.1 billion 2010 in lawsuits, about 700 million dollars in lawsuits that were paying him police losses particularly did not involve proving that the individuals were in is innocent, rather was associated with police misconduct.

I'm not making a value judgment.

I'm just pointing that out.

That's going tell.

Studied at the Sun-Times stunt.

But up.

But there's I think 200 police cases that the 2 cases in the pipeline right now that could cost the city of past patterns suggest could cost the city anywhere from 1 billion dollars to as much as 2 billion dollars you know, tax payer funded settlements.

Tony Romanucci, you argue that legal action and financial cost financial pain.

That is how change gets made.

>> In many cases, do you think the city of Chicago in the police department are responding by making change?

I don't think so.

Part of the problem that what we're dealing with this, we're not fixing the problem.

>> If we don't fix the policing problem.

First, then what?

We're going to continue to see our problems that developed over decades.

What we're saying right now, if you see a payment be made tomorrow or one being made a month ago, it's not a problem that started even a year or 2 ago.

It's been decades long.

The city of Chicago has not addressed these problems even under the current consent decree that they're cooperating with.

We're not going fast enough for not doing enough.

So if we don't fix the problem, we're going to continue to have these results and what we're talking about, what Mister Vallas was saying about 120 million dollars wrongfully convicted people.

And to me, it's quite insulting to think that wrongfully convicted individuals should have caps placed on what they receive just because they may have been poor or disenfranchise are marginalized when they went to prison.

Doesn't mean that they don't that they are not entitled to full and fair justice.

you know, I just had to respond to that that that there are so many You can have a conversation with the city lawyers.

>> About the cases where individuals who been really stop and see because of a police misconduct.

But between them and the state's attorney, they knew these individuals were guilty.

They not only settled for massive settlements but but they remain millionaires.

we had we had about 30 minutes.

I could go a litany of those type of cases.

To point is I believe that if there's police misconduct, people need to be compensated.

I believe that if people go to jail, they of unfairly and the police have have committed misconduct.

They need to be held accountable.

That's not what I'm talking about.

But I'm talking about massive lawsuits.

Masterson what one law firm made 112 million dollars in a single year in pocket and 42 Million.

So it's not like, you know, even all that money going into the hands of those individuals who are victimized.

Also, let me point out that many of the individuals who are getting out not be released and are settling for a massive settlement.

Also, individuals who have committed crimes in the community.

how about the victim, Sonny?

Because the overwhelming vast majorities cases where a Russian made the individuals who are the victims of the violent crime or in fact, black and Latino and poor black and Latino.

So what about those poor families?

So I want to get to some of the and I'm gonna come back to your But I do want to get to some of the reforms that you that you talk about.

Paul Vallas.

You suggest public education in judicial awareness.

>> Federal damages caps reform the state's certificate of innocence Statute pursue legal claim or excuse me.

Civil claims against fraudulent lawsuits and establish a special litigation division within the law department.

And this is all included in commentary op-ed that you wrote in Chicago Tribune.

I don't want to talk about a couple of those because like you said, we don't have 30 minutes on the you say some of these convictions vacated based on a technicality versus actual evidence of innocence.

And if that somehow leads to these multimillion dollar settlements has well, I think they just try to maximize the benefits on any settlement so that there's been clase's cases were clearly clearly who the police misconduct occurred.

These individuals were innocent.

There they They were unjustly up.

You know, there unjustly convicted and certainly they're entitled to summons.

But but there have been enough cases out there that the city is argue time and time again >> worthy individuals, in fact, to commit a crime.

But the police through their investigations committed malpractice.

So the question is, should be getting multimillion-dollar settlements in the process.

I'm just speaking to these cases that have been made and you can look at the public record and in some cases to the judges have actually, you know, intervened point that out.

So at the end of the day, I'm simply talking about reasonable caps because you have to understand while the city has paid over the last 15 years, 1.1 is probably closer to 2 billion because the city has to borrow in order to pay that in the city has to take out insurance and obviously have to rise insurance costing the city is at the point.

Now where they can even get insurance for these big mega cases.

So you're talking about a city that has a billion dollars to 1.2 billion dollars structural deficit facing maybe another believes a summit in the case of their some federal, federal instances where there is a cap.

You know, we're there is a cap and some states have provide, for example, if you're in prison for each year, you're in prison, allocated a certain amount.

So there are different ways has got a grant of that significant in sense in exchange for agreeing not to pursue civil civil Santa was talking about talking about is having a reasonable discussion on how we can contain the costs.

So instead of you know, so that, you know, the because ultimately property containing the was taxpayers are paying for this time a new G. You say the police department while they are cooperating with the consent decree, they're only at 16% after what, 6.

>> Tanya, I forget a lot of Prince in 2017, exactly.

What do you propose?

How should the police department be making change to avoid the kind of police misconduct settlements that gets the city into the courtroom?

So first of all, I just want to say that that a lot of the proposals that Mister Vallas puts on the table >> is a clear denial of due process.

That's our 14th Amendment right.

What he's saying placing caps rude, amending the certificate of Innocence.

By definition, if you're wrongfully convicted and you are exonerated, you did not commit the crime.

By definition.

What is it that we have to do in order to start?

You have to start with training.

It has to start with the bare-bones basics.

A lot of agencies across the United States do not train like they should and they don't continue the training because it costs money.

It's expensive.

But guess what is more expensive?

The problems that come from lack of training.

So if you start with training, you will then resolve many of these litigation issues that are being discussed here today because you're not going to have police misconduct.

I would like nothing more then to be then to be able to put myself out of business if I can not prosecute police misconduct cases.

If I don't have to represent the mother or the father or or a child who lost a loved one who was killed by police.

I would be happy.

I would be more than happy to have this discussion and continue this discussion at a round table and make sure that this doesn't happen.

Is there any other recourse for people who've been wrongfully convicted or maybe injured after a police chase, whatever it might be?

Is there any other recourse beyond a civil well, there are some recourse is.

>> But clearly our system of democracy, the 7th Amendment says that you are entitled to a civil jury trial.

And let me tell you, it's the juries the hard work here because when there isn't an agreement when there isn't a settlement, there is a trial and then juries decide a juror jury of our peers and they make the decisions, not the lawyers, not the city lawyers, not the private lawyers, but a jury.

And a judge oversees the jury to make sure that trial is conducted properly 30 seconds.

Look, we can spend an hour going through these cases of individuals who made millionaires in part not because they are proven innocent, but they got off because of police misconduct and technicalities.

The bottom line is if you go to your Web site, talk about a billion dollars in settlements.

I mean, what percentage of that work about a law firm?

This is a cottage industry and are making a tremendous amount of money on simply talking about reasonable caps.

>> Nothing I've suggested here is anyway, unconstitutional.

In fact, many my proposals had been vetted by attorneys for the city.

And these are recommendations that they have made me make one think I'm out of time.

You're right.

We are at a time where there's been a robust discussion.

Gentlemen, I thank you both for joining