♪ MUSIC REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS, AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA F. OUR GUEST TODAY IS DEBORAH JACKSON TAFFA, WHO IS AN EXTRAORDINARY WRITER WHO HAS WRITTEN A WONDERFUL BOOK WHICH HAS BEEN NAMED ONE OF THE TOP TEN NONFICTION BOOKS OF 2024 BY TIME MAGAZINE.

IT'S CALLED WHISKEY TENDER AND COULD YOU SHOW US THE BOOK?

IT'S A BEAUTIFUL BOOK, AND THE CONTENTS ARE EXTRAORDINARY.

IT WAS A FINALIST IN THE NATIONAL BOOK AWARD, IT WAS LONGLISTED FOR A CARNEGIE MEDAL FOR EXCELLENCE, IT WAS NAMED BEST BOOK OF THE YEAR BY WASHINGTON POST , NPR , ESQUIRE, TIME, THE ATLANTIC PUBLISHERS WEEKLY , BUT WHAT I LOVED IS WHAT THE OPRAH DAILY SAID, IT WAS THE BEST NEW BOOK, BUT A RIVETING NONFICTION AND A MEMOIR YOU NEED TO READ.

AND THAT'S HOW I FEEL ABOUT IT, TOO.

>>DEBORAH: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: IT'S A REALLY RICH AND GENEROUS EXPERIENCE.

THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE CALLED IT A NEW BOOK TO COZY UP WITH, NPR CALLED IT A BOOK WE LOVE, AMAZON EDITOR SAID THE BEST BOOK OF THE MONTH, AND PARADE CALLED IT THE BEST NEW WORK BY AN INDIGENOUS WRITER.

SO YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF, BUT TELL ME A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND AND HOW YOU GOT HERE.

IT IS AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY.

>>DEBORAH: YES, IT'S A MEMOIR.

>>LORENE: A MEMOIR, BUT WHAT BROUGHT YOU HERE?

>>DEBORAH: WELL, IT'S A COMING OF AGE AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MANY READERS ACROSS CULTURES ARE CONNECTING WITH IS THE IDEA OF IT BEING A STORY ABOUT MIGRATION.

SO, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS AN ERA IN NATIVE COUNTRY WHEN INDIAN PEOPLE MOVED OFF RESERVATION BECAUSE OF THIS RELOCATION PROGRAM THAT THE GOVERNMENT RAN, AND SO IT'S ALMOST LIKE AN IMMIGRATION TALE OF HOW I AM THE FIRST PERSON IN MY FAMILY, MY GENERATION, WE'RE THE FIRST KIDS IN OUR FAMILY TO GO TO MIDDLE CLASS SCHOOLS AND TO CONTEND WITH THE IDEA OF THE AMERICAN DREAM AND OF CREATING CAREERS OFF RESERVATION.

AND THEN WE HAD A LOT OF PRESSURE EXERTED ON US BY OUR PARENTS TO BE MODEL MINORITIES.

SO, I WAS BORN ON ONE OF MY RESERVATIONS, WHICH IS THE YUMA QUECHAN INDIAN RESERVATION IN SOUTHEASTERN CALIFORNIA.

BUT BECAUSE OF THIS RELOCATION PROGRAM, WE MOVED TO NAVAJO TERRITORY WHEN I STARTED SCHOOL, AND WE LIVED IN FARMINGTON, NEW MEXICO, WHICH IS IN THE FOUR CORNERS AND THERE I BECAME A MINORITY INDIAN IN A BIG COMMUNITY OF DINE PEOPLE OR NAVAJO PEOPLE.

IT WAS HARD TO FIT IN, IT WAS HARD TO FIT IN, AND IT WAS HARD TO KNOW WHAT WE WERE DOING BECAUSE MY PARENTS, NEITHER OF THEM HAD FINISHED HIGH SCHOOL AND SO THEY WANTED US TO EXCEL.

WE DID, WE WERE VERY GOOD STUDENTS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME THEY WERE SAYING, DO AS WE SAY, NOT AS WE DID OURSELVES, WHICH IS CONFUSING FOR A CHILD TO HEAR.

>>LORENE: BUT NOBODY WAS, THE NATIVE AMERICAN HERITAGE IS SO UNIQUE AND THE TREASURED TRADITIONS AND CULTURE, WAS THERE A TIME, WHEN DID THE PUSH TO ANGLICIZE, TO FIT IN, YOU KNOW, TO LEAVE THE RESERVATION, GET A JOB IN THE CITY AND DO ALL THAT, CAN YOU KIND OF GIVE ME A LITTLE TIMELINE ABOUT WHEN IT WAS COOL TO STAY ON THE RES AND TO LISTEN TO THE ELDERS AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S WHAT YOU WANTED TO WITH YOUR PEOPLE, YOUR TRADITIONS.

>>DEBORAH: WELL, I THINK FROM MY FATHER'S STORIES, I UNDERSTAND THEN THAT IN THE 1940S, THE POVERTY WAS SO INTENSE AND THE GRANDPARENTS AND THE PARENTS HAD BEEN SENT AWAY TO INDIAN BOARDING SCHOOLS.

AND SO THEY CAME BACK AND THERE WAS A VERY REAL FISSURE THAT HAD BEEN CAUSED THE, ETHNOCIDE, LIKE THE DESTRUCTION OF THE CULTURE ITSELF, HAD BEEN SO PRONOUNCED THAT THERE WAS NOT A LOT OF GENERATIONAL CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE TRADITIONS AND HOW TO HOLD ON TO THE TRADITIONS.

THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE UNCLES AND AUNTS, PERHAPS, THAT HAD BEEN TO WAR, AND THEY COME BACK AND THEY'RE KIND OF SHELL SHOCKED, THEY DON'T SPEAK VERY ELOQUENTLY ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCE.

I THINK THAT MY GRANDPARENTS DID NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY TO PASS ON A LOT OF THEIR TRADITIONS BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN TRAUMATIZED AND THEN WE HAD A VERY, EARLY MORTALITY RATE IN NATIVE AMERICA IN THE 1940S AND 1950S.

SO THE GENERATION GAPS BECOME VERY BIG AND I THINK A LOT OF NATIVE PARENTS IN THAT ERA THOUGHT IT'S BETTER FOR MY CHILDREN TO FIND A WAY TO BECOME MAINSTREAM IN ORDER TO PROVIDE FOR THEMSELVES.

THERE ARE NO JOBS ON THE RESERVATION AND WHEN YOUR KIDS ARE HUNGRY, IT SCARES YOU.

SO I THINK THAT THEY WERE BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE OFFERED A "SOPHIE'S CHOICE."

WE MUST SEND OUR CHILDREN OFF RESERVATION TO FIND JOBS VIA THESE GOVERNMENTAL PROGRAMS THAT OCCURRED DURING THE TERMINATION POLICY, THE OFFER TO TRAIN MY FATHER AS A WELDER, TO TRAIN HIS BROTHERS AS HVAC TECHNICIANS.

>>LORENE: THESE ARE HIGH PAYING JOBS.

>>DEBORAH: BACK IN THE DAY, THEY WERE, IN THE 70S IT COUNTED.

AND SO MY GRANDPARENTS ENCOURAGED THEIR KIDS, YOU KNOW, THEY SAID, GO FIND WORK, IF YOU STAY HERE, YOUR KIDS WON'T HAVE A FUTURE.

SO THERE WAS, A SACRIFICE, I THINK, THAT MY FATHER'S GENERATION MADE, WITH THE HOPE THAT THE CHILDREN WHO ARE KIND OF THE LOST BIRDS THAT WE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE WE STARTED, WOULD EVENTUALLY FIND THEIR WAY HOME.

IT TAKES WORK ON THE PART OF SUCCESSIVE GENERATIONS TO REMEMBER THAT THERE'S VALUE IN THE INDIGENOUS WAY OF BEING IN THE WORLD AND THE INDIGENOUS WAY OF LIVING.

>>LORENE: AND YOU TALKED ABOUT YOUR GRANDMOTHER WHEN SHE'D HANG UP CLOTHES ON THE LINE WOULD SAY ALL THE PLACE NAMES OF HER WORLD AND SING THEM IN A WAY AND KEEP THEM ALIVE AND VITALIZE THEM AS A MEANINGFUL PART OF HER LIFE.

AND YOU AS A GRANDDAUGHTER HEARING HER, THAT WAS A GIFT TO YOU.

>>DEBORAH: IT WAS, IT WAS VERY IRONIC BECAUSE SHE HAD MET MY FATHER IN INDIAN BOARDING SCHOOL AND SHE HAD BEEN TAKEN, YOU KNOW, FROM LAGUNA PUEBLO TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.

SHE WAS REMEMBERING THE SACRED MOUNTAINS OF HER CHILDHOOD, AND THAT WAS SIGNIFICANT TO HER FROM A DISTANCE AND THERE WAS SO MUCH NOSTALGIA IN THAT.

AND AS I GREW OLDER, I BEGAN TO REALIZE THAT I HAD THAT NOSTALGIA TOO, NOT ONLY FOR A PLACE, BUT FOR A WAY OF LIVING AND A WAY OF BEING IN THE WORLD THAT FELT MORE PROFOUND TO ME THAN WHAT CAPITALISM HAD TO OFFER ME AS A CHILD.

>>LORENE: AND YET, AS A CHILD, YOU SAID YOUR DAD ALWAYS SAID PEOPLE LIKE US HAD TO EXCEED EXPECTATIONS IF YOU WANTED TO RISE OUT OF OUR CIRCUMSTANCES, IN OTHER WORDS, TO GET OUT OF FARMING AND YOUR ROOTS THERE.

>>DEBORAH: YES, TO MAKE SOMETHING OF OURSELVES, WE HAD TO GIVE 120%.

I MEAN, MY FATHER AND MY MOTHER GREW UP PRE-CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

AND MY FATHER HAD BEEN TRIED AND CONVICTED OF A SERIOUS CRIME AS A 17-YEAR-OLD AND HE WAS PUNISHED QUITE HARSHLY.

SO, I THINK HE WAS VERY AFRAID FOR US TO RUN INTO THE SAME PROBLEMS THAT HE HAD, SO AGAIN, THEY REQUIRED PERFECTION AND EXCELLENCE FROM US.

WE HAD TO PLAY MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS, WE HAD TO GET STRAIGHT A'S IN SCHOOL, WE WERE IN SPORTS, ALL OF IT.

THAT'S CONFUSING FOR A CHILD WHEN NO ONE IS ADDRESSING WHAT HAS BEEN CULTURALLY LOST AND ALL YOU'RE BEING TOLD TO THINK ABOUT IS HOW TO JOIN THIS WORLD THAT SEEMS NOT TO GIVE VERY MUCH RESPECT TO YOUR CULTURAL HISTORIES.

>>LORENE: RIGHT, WAS IT WHEN YOU STARTED TO EXPLORE YOUR OWN ROOTS, I MEAN, YOU HAD BOUGHT INTO THAT BECAUSE YOU WERE RAISED THAT THAT'S WHAT YOUR PARENTS TOLD YOU TO DO, BUT WHAT BOOK HAD YOU READ THAT MADE YOU REALLY REALIZE THAT YOU WANTED TO KNOW, YOU KNOW, THE REAL TRADITIONS, THE REAL CULTURE.

>>DEBORAH: OH, THAT'S INTERESTING.

I DON'T KNOW THAT IT BEGAN WITH THE BOOK, I THINK THAT IN HIGH SCHOOL, IT DEFINITELY LED TO WRITERS LIKE M. SCOTT MOMADAY, LESLIE MARMON SILKO.

BUT I THINK AS A CHILD IT WAS MORE THAT ON EVERY VACATION, WE WOULD GO BACK TO THE RESERVATION AND TO BE THERE WITH MY ELDERS AND TO SEE THE WAY THEY SPOKE IN THEIR TRADITIONAL LANGUAGE AND CONNECTED CEREMONY AND HOW KIND AND GOOD THEY WERE TO US I JUST REALLY STARTED TO ASK MYSELF ABOUT HOW IT IS THAT A KID LIKE ME, THE RITES OF PASSAGE THAT I HAD OFFERED TO ME WERE LIKE, YOU GET TO GO TO THE MALL AND GET A DRIVER'S LICENSE OR YOU GET TO GO TO PROM, YOU DO THESE THINGS THAT MAKE YOU A GROWN UP, BUT BACK IN THE DAY, THE WAYS IN WHICH CHILDREN BECAME GROWN UP WERE THEY HAD TO DO WITH THE EARTH, AND THERE WAS A RECIPROCITY WITH THE EARTH, AND THERE WAS THE HARVEST SEASON, AND THERE WERE CYCLES TO LIFE.

IT JUST DREW ME IN, YOU KNOW, IT REALLY DID, I THINK IT'S JUST PART OF WHO I AM ESSENTIALLY, MY SISTERS, THEY LOVE THE IDEA OF GOING TO MEXICO FOR SPRING BREAK, YOU KNOW, THEY WANTED TO GO TO CANCUN, THEY LIKED EATING HOT DOGS.

I WAS THE KID WHO WAS LIKE I THINK I MIGHT WANT TO BE A VEGETARIAN.

I ALWAYS HAD THIS LITTLE BIT OF AN ODDITY TO ME, AND THEY WOULD TEASE ME AND THEY WOULD SAY, OH, YOU KNOW, DEBORAH, GET UP THERE AND TAKE A PICTURE WITH THE ELDERS, SHE'S ONE OF THE ELDERS.

AND I WOULD BE JUST A LITTLE KID BECAUSE I HAVE THIS VERY DEEP LONGING FOR THAT WORLD, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW TO ACCOUNT FOR IT.

IT WAS NOT POPULAR IN THE 80S, YOU KNOW, NOW I THINK A LOT OF NATIVE KIDS ARE WOKE, BUT IN THE 80S, IT WAS THE RISE OF CONSERVATIVISM IN MANY WAYS.

RUSH LIMBAUGH CAME ON THE RADIO AND YOU KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE, "MATERIAL GIRL" WAS THE HIT SONG BY MADONNA, EVERYBODY HAD BIG HAIR AND GOLD IN IT.

I WOULD HAVE TO FIT IN MUCH MORE, I THINK, IN THE HIPPIE GENERATION.

>>LORENE: YOU REALLY WOULD HAVE.

>>DEBORAH: IF I HAD BEEN BORN A DECADE EARLIER.

>>LORENE: SO I HAD READ THAT WHEN YOU THAT YOU READ BURY MY HEART AT WOUNDED KNEE, THAT MADE YOU... >>DEBORAH: DEVASTATED ME.

>>LORENE: THAT MADE YOU THINK, I'VE BEEN LIED TO, I'VE BEEN BETRAYED, I'VE BEEN PUSHED ON THE PATH THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN.

YOU KNOW, HAD I HAD A CHOICE, YOU CAN DO THIS OR THIS, AND SUDDENLY YOU HAVE A CHOICE.

>>DEBORAH: YOU KNOW, IT WAS SO SUDDEN IS THE THING.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT BEFORE THAT POINT IN MY EDUCATION, WE TALKED A LOT ABOUT MANIFEST DESTINY AND WHAT I REALIZED WHEN WE READ BURY MY HEART AT WOUNDED KNEE , WAS THAT, YOU KNOW, I WAS BEING PRESENTED WITH ALL OF THE HARSHEST, MOST DIFFICULT, HISTORY, THAT JUNCTURE WHERE COLONIZATION OCCURRED AND WHERE WE MET OUR DEMISE.

AND YOU KNOW, I FELT VERY, IN RETROSPECT, I FEEL DISAPPOINTED THAT SO MANY SCHOOLS BEGAN HISTORY THERE, BECAUSE IF YOU BACK UP FURTHER, YOU FIND INCREDIBLY WONDERFUL THINGS TO TEACH PEOPLE ABOUT NATIVE CULTURE.

THE ASTRONOMICAL, THE ARCHITECTURAL, THE BOTANICAL DISCOVERIES THAT WERE MADE PRIOR TO COLONIZATION, YOU ONLY HAVE TO GO TO CHACO CANYON IN OUR OWN STATE, NOT EVEN MENTIONING MACHU PICCHU, CHICHÉN ITZÁ, THE DISCOVERY OF CORN, LIKE THE FOODS THAT WERE CREATED IN THE AMERICAS, THE CONCEPT OF ZERO BEING, YOU KNOW, KIND OF DISCOVERED AND ALL OF THIS SOPHISTICATED KNOWLEDGE THAT MY ANCESTORS AND ALL OF THEIR ACHIEVEMENTS WERE NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS DISCUSSED AT SCHOOL.

>>LORENE: IT WAS SUCH A ROBBERY AND SUCH A BETRAYAL THAT THE NATIVE CULTURES HAD ACHIEVED SO MUCH, AND THE ANGLO CULTURE DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE THEM ANY CREDIT FOR IT AT ALL.

ABOUT THEIR LAND, DIDN'T THEY SAY SOMETHING LIKE, WELL, THEY'RE NOT USING IT, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST LYING THERE, THEY'RE NOT USING IT.

WELL, IT WAS HOLY TO THEM.

>>DEBORAH: THE PHILOSOPHICAL SORT OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT RECIPROCITY WITH THE LAND MEANS DIDN'T REALLY, THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THROUGHOUT MY LIFE, THAT'S ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS WHY I WROTE THE BOOK IS THAT IT'S KIND OF THE COUPLING OF THEIR HAVING BEEN SORT OF A DISMISSAL AND A SLANDERING OF MY ANCESTORS, BUT ALSO JUST THAT I BELIEVE THAT IF WE HAD LISTENED MORE TO THEIR WARNINGS, TO THEIR IDEAS OF HOW WE SHOULD TREAT THE EARTH, WE WOULD NOT BE HAVING THE PROBLEMS WE ARE TODAY WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, WITH DROUGHT, WITH POLLUTION.

AND IT'S REALLY SAD TO ME BECAUSE I LOVE THIS LAND VERY MUCH, THE AMERICAS ARE MY HOMELANDS, MY ANCESTRAL HOMELANDS AND TO SEE THAT THEY'VE BEEN DESTROYED, I JUST DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE THAT IT'S TOO LATE FOR NON-NATIVE PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A VALUE IN INDIGENOUS BELIEF SYSTEMS THAT REQUIRES ME TO OPEN MY HEART TO EVERYONE, NOT JUST INDIGENOUS READERS, BUT TO AMERICAN READERS AND INTERNATIONAL READERS FROM ALL CULTURES.

THAT REQUIRED A TRUST AND I DON'T THINK I COULD FIND THAT VOICE OF TRUST.

I NEVER WANTED TO MAKE ANYONE FEEL GUILTY WITH THE WRITING OF THIS BOOK, I'M NOT SEEKING TO BLAME ANYONE, I WANT TO ENLARGE IN THE DEFINITION OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AMERICAN AND HAVE AN AMERICAN DREAM.

>>LORENE: RIGHT, RIGHT.

WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH DEBORAH JACKSON TAFFA ABOUT HER WONDERFUL BOOK, WHISKEY TENDER .

THERE ARE SOME TRADITIONS IN THE CULTURE THAT I WAS FASCINATED WITH, FOR EXAMPLE, FUNERAL TRADITIONS.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THERE WAS A KID WHO HAD DIED AND MOST OF YOUR FELLOW KIDS HADN'T EVER SEEN A DEAD BODY, BUT THEY HAD TO GO TO GET COMMUNION AT THE CHURCH, THEY HAD TO WALK BY THE CASKET AND SEE THE DEAD BODY FOR THE FIRST TIME.

AND THERE WERE A WHOLE LOT OF FUNERAL TRADITIONS OF DESTROYING EVERYTHING THAT THE PERSON HAD OWNED, CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE ABOUT THAT?

>>DEBORAH: I HAD IN VERY QUICK SUCCESSION TWO FORMATIVE EXPERIENCES THAT HAD TO DO WITH DEATH.

SO ONE WAS THAT IN THE SECOND GRADE OUR TEACHER, WHO WAS A NUN, I WAS AT A CATHOLIC SCHOOL, HAD TO SING FOR A FUNERAL OF A PROMINENT BUSINESSMAN.

AND I WAS VERY CURIOUS ABOUT DEATH, AS CHILDREN TEND TO BE, AND IT SEEMED VERY KIND OF, PEOPLE WEREN'T ALLOWED TO CRY OUT LOUD.

IT WAS VERY AUSTERE AND KIND OF QUIET, THERE WAS KIND OF A PAIN THAT FELT LIKE IT WANTED TO BUST THROUGH, BUT IT WASN'T COMING OUT AND THEN ABOUT A MONTH LATER MY FATHER'S BROTHER DIED WITH HIS WIFE IN A CAR ACCIDENT.

>>LORENE: OH, RIGHT, THE BRIDGE.

>>DEBORAH: RIGHT, EXACTLY.

SO WE WENT DOWN TO THE RESERVATION FOR WHAT IS A TRADITIONAL FUNERAL, WHICH IS QUITE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT I HAD SEEN IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, ALTHOUGH IT STARTED IN A CHURCH AND THERE WAS A BLESSING, WE GO TO A BUILDING CALLED THE CRY HOUSE, AND THERE'S A LONG OVERNIGHT CEREMONY THAT CULMINATES IN CREMATION AT SUNRISE, OVER TRADITIONAL WOOD WITH DIRECTIONS, THERE ARE MANY ELEMENTS OF THE TRADITION THAT GO INTO IT.

BUT THERE ARE PROFESSIONAL CRIERS AT OUR FUNERALS THAT ARE MEANT TO EVOKE THE EMOTION FROM THOSE WHO ARE GRIEVING, SO THEY CAN LET IT OUT, SO THEY CAN EXPERIENCE IT, SO THEY CAN CONFRONT THEIR GRIEF.

>>LORENE: AND IS IT ALSO A FUNCTION THEY HAVE TO EVOKE THE PAST, THE JOURNEYS.

>>DEBORAH: OH, YES, AND THE DANCING, YES, OF COURSE.

>>LORENE: AND THEN THE WOMEN HAVE THEIR CLOTHES.

>>DEBORAH: YES, EXACTLY.

>>LORENE: AND THEN THEN EVERYTHING IS INCINERATED.

>>DEBORAH: SURE.

I WAS SEVEN AT THE TIME, IT REALLY, IN MY MIND, PRESENTED A DISTINCT CHOICE.

AND NO ONE CAN MAKE THAT CHOICE BUT YOU AS AN INDIGENOUS PERSON, I BELIEVE THAT ALL INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ARE CONSTANTLY TRYING TO DECIDE TO WHAT EXTENT CAN I AND WILL I ASSIMILATE AND TO WHAT EXTENT DO I WANT TO RESIST THAT ASSIMILATION, TO KIND OF HANG ON TO THE TRADITIONS IN THE CULTURE THAT THEY TRIED TO DESTROY.

AND I CAN'T BE PRESCRIPTIVE ABOUT THAT TO READERS, BUT I CAN PRESENT THAT CONUNDRUM CRISIS THAT CHILDREN GO THROUGH.

WE HAVE TO MAKE OUR PEACE, KIND OF A SPIRITUAL PEACE WITH OUR PATH IN LIFE AND I HAVE MANY RELATIVES WHO ARE TRIBAL POLITICIANS, SO MY DAD'S FIRST COUSIN WAS JUST INSTALLED AS THE GOVERNOR OF LAGUNA PUEBLO ON JANUARY 1ST AND I WENT OUT FOR THE CELEBRATION, AND HIS BROTHER WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE QUEZON TRIBE FOR A VERY LONG TIME AS WELL.

I KNOW THAT FOR ME, POLITICS ISN'T THE ROUTE TO ACHIEVE WHAT I WANT TO IN LIFE, FOR ME, IT'S ART.

>>LORENE: ABSOLUTELY.

>>DEBORAH: I THINK THAT THROUGH STORYTELLING PEOPLE, THEY EMPATHIZE WITH A VIEWPOINT ON THE WORLD, A PERSPECTIVE THAT OTHERWISE THEY COULD NOT ACCESS.

>>LORENE: BUT THOSE STORIES ALSO PROVIDE A MAP FOR THEIR OWN JOURNEY.

>>DEBORAH: I HOPE SO.

>>LORENE: YEAH, AND YOU DO THAT SO GENEROUSLY IN THAT BOOK.

>>DEBORAH: THANK YOU, I HOPE SO.

>>LORENE: THE WHOLE "ONE DROP RULE" THING, CAN YOU ADDRESS THAT A LITTLE BIT, WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

>>DEBORAH: WELL, I JUST, YOU KNOW, GROWING UP THERE IS PRESSURE ON HALF BREEDS.

SO MY MOTHER IS CHICANA OR HISPANIC FROM SOCORRO, NEW MEXICO, HER LAST NAME WAS LOPEZ HERRERA, AND MY FATHER IS 100% FULL BLOODED NATIVE AMERICAN.

AND MY MOTHER, WE KNEW HAD SOME INDIGENOUS IN HER BLOODLINES AS MANY HISPANIC PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO DO, BUT THERE'S A WAY IN WHICH INSIDE OF INDIAN CULTURE A LOT OF TIMES WHEN CHILDREN BECOME LESS THAN FULL BLOOD SOCIETY SEES THAT CHILD AS NOT NATIVE ENOUGH, AND IT'S JUST COMPLETELY THE OPPOSITE OF THE RULES WITH BLACK AMERICANS, WHERE YOU HAVE THE "ONE DROP RULE."

BUT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE POLITICAL NECESSITY OF THOSE BELIEF SYSTEMS, YOU REALIZE THAT ONE DROP OF BLOOD MAKING YOU BLACK MEANT THAT THERE WAS MORE PROPERTY IN TERMS OF SLAVE, LESS BLOOD IN TERMS OF NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE, MEANT THAT YOU COULD KIND OF START TO DIMINISH THE TRIBE, CANCEL THE TRIBE, AND MORE OF THAT RESERVATION LAND MIGHT BECOME AVAILABLE, WHICH MEANS NATURAL RESOURCES.

SO YOU HAVE TWO DIFFERENT CULTURAL GROUPS THAT ARE BOTH MARGINALIZED AND THEY'RE TREATED VERY DIFFERENTLY IN TERMS OF HOW AND WHY THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO CLAIM THEIR IDENTITY AND THAT IS THE SORT OF VIOLENCE THAT IS NOT ONLY SOCIETAL BUT CAN BE LATERAL IN INDIAN COUNTRY.

AND SO I DON'T LIKE IT, I FEEL LIKE OUR CHILDREN, THROUGH THE GENERATIONS, SHOULD BE ABLE TO LEAVE THE FOUR MOUNTAINS, SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO OUT INTO THE WORLD AND NOT SACRIFICE THE ESSENTIAL NATURE OF THEIR INDIGENEITY.

>>LORENE: THE WHOLE THING, YOU'VE CREATED A NEW IDENTITY FOR YOURSELF.

NATIVE POETS AND THE ARTS, YOU KNOW, THAT REMINDED YOU TO GO BACK BEYOND THE PARENTS AND GET A GOOD JOB AND ADJUST TO THE ANGLO WAY OF LIFE, BUT YOU WANTED TO GO BACK FURTHER TO THAT AND YOU FOUND, YOU DESCRIBED BEING UPLIFTED BY THIS POETRY AND INSPIRED BY THIS POETRY.

>>DEBORAH: SIMON ORTIZ, I MEAN THEY SAVED MY, IT'S NOT, I CAN'T, THIS IS WHEN I KNEW THAT LITERATURE HAS A TRUE IMPACT WHEN IT SAVED MY LIFE.

BECAUSE AS YOU READ IN THE BOOK, I BECOME VERY DEPRESSED AND I DON'T WANT TO GIVE THE WHOLE THING AWAY, BUT THERE'S DEFINITELY A JOURNEY IN THIS COMING OF AGE WHERE I DIDN'T KNOW HOW I COULD SURVIVE IN THE WORLD AND LANGUAGE AND POETRY ON THE PAGE CONNECTED ME TO THINGS THAT I NEEDED TO BE CONNECTED TO AND BY MY RETURN AND MY RECLAMATION, BECAUSE THIS BOOK REALLY IS A RECLAMATION OF INDIGENOUS CULTURE.

I COULD SEE THAT MY FATHER FELT REWARDED AND ABLE TO RECLAIM MUCH OF IT AS WELL, BECAUSE I THINK THAT GROWING UP PRE-CIVIL RIGHTS, THERE WERE REALLY, IT COULD BE DANGEROUS FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE TO SIMPLY WALK DOWN THE STREET IN THE WRONG TOWN AFTER SUNSET AND HE HAD EXPERIENCED THAT.

SO I DON'T WANT TO REVILE THE OLDER GENERATION FROM DISTANCING THEM A LITTLE BIT THEMSELVES FROM THAT OR WANTING THEIR CHILDREN TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM, BECAUSE IT WAS SURVIVAL, IT WAS IT WAS AN ACT OF SURVIVANCE THAT MADE THEM DO THAT.

I JUST THINK THAT THE WORLD HAS CHANGED, I HOPE THE WORLD IS CHANGED, I HAVE OPTIMISM STILL.

>>LORENE: YES.

WELL, YOU'RE PART OF CHANGING IT.

>>DEBORAH: I TRY TO BE.

SO I THINK THAT IT DOMINO EFFECT THROUGH THE FAMILY.

YOU HAVE OTHER PEOPLE IN MY FAMILY, MY MOTHER WAS ONE OF 15 KIDS, MY FATHER WAS ONE OF TEN.

I HAVE MANY, MANY, MANY COUSINS, SO MANY OF THEM ARE COMING BACK AND THEY'RE VERY PROUD THAT THIS HAS BEEN TOLD, WHICH IS FUNNY BECAUSE SO MUCH OF THE BOOK PORTRAYS THE STRUGGLES AND THINGS THAT HAPPEN THAT IF YOU HAD TOLD ME I HAD WRITTEN THEM IN A BOOK WHEN I WAS IN MY 20S, I WOULD HAVE SAID I WOULD NEVER TELL THAT STORY, I WOULD NEVER TELL THAT STORY.

BUT SOMEHOW IN THE WRITING, MUCH PRIDE EMERGED TO REPLACE THE SHAME, WHICH IS BEAUTIFUL.

>>LORENE: ABSOLUTELY AND ALSO, YOUR DAD, HE WENT TO A DEI CONFERENCE, REMEMBER THAT, HE CAME BACK AND HE REALIZED HOW HARD IT WAS FOR YOU TO BE WHAT HE CALLED A HALF BREED.

HE SAID, BECAUSE HE NEVER FIT IN, EVER, HE NEVER FELT HE FIT IN.

HE THOUGHT YOU WOULD ACE IT BECAUSE YOU WERE SO YOUNG AND LOVELY AND CHARMING AND YET THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS VERY HARD.

YOU FELT PERHAPS YOU'VE BEEN LIED TO, THAT YOU'VE BEEN BETRAYED, THAT THEY HAD TOLD YOU HAD TO DO THIS AND YOU HAD TO DO THAT.

YET TO ME, THE MOST POIGNANT THING IS, WHEN YOU WANTED TO RETURN TO THE RESERVATION AND ALIGN YOURSELF WITH THE WISDOM OF THE ANCESTORS, RETURN TO WHAT, BECAUSE NOBODY WAS LIVING TRADITIONALLY AND NO ONE SPOKE THE ANCIENT LANGUAGES.

IT'S THROUGH THE ARTS AND THROUGH POETRY AND SO ON, THE MOST PROFOUND FORM OF PRAYER, THAT WE CAN CALL THOSE BACK, BUT IT TAKES VISIONARY LEADERSHIP.

>>DEBORAH: IT A SCHOLARLY PURSUIT AS WELL, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CALIFORNIA TRIBES THAT WERE DECIMATED SO EARLY IN AMERICAN HISTORY AND SO FULLY THERE ARE MANY TRIBES IN CALIFORNIA THAT HAVE COMPLETELY LOST THEIR LANGUAGES.

I WAS ABLE, FORTUNATELY, TO GO BACK TO THE LANGUAGE PRESERVATION AND REVITALIZATION OFFICE ON THE RESERVATION, AND THEY CAME THROUGH AND HELPED ME WHEN I WAS SEEKING VOCABULARY WORDS THAT I COULD NOT FIND AND THEN THEY ALSO HELPED THE AUDIOBOOK READER, A WONDERFUL ACTRESS, THEY HELPED HER WITH PRONOUNCING THE WORDS.

>>LORENE: I LISTENED TO THE AUDIOBOOK.

>>DEBORAH: BECAUSE I CAN SEE THE WORDS ON THE PAGE WHEN I DO RESEARCH, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT I DON'T ANYMORE HAVE A LIVING SPEAKER IN MY FAMILY AND SO I HAD TO RELY ON RELATIVES BACK ON THE RESERVATION.

>>LORENE: AND I THINK NATIONALLY, THERE IS A MOVEMENT NOW TO RECORD THE LAST SPEAKERS.

>>DEBORAH: ABSOLUTELY.

>>LORENE: IN THESE LANGUAGES, BECAUSE THEY'RE WORDS FOR A CONCEPT, A PHILOSOPHY, AN IDEA THAT WE DON'T EVEN THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW THE IDEA.

>>DEBORAH: THERE ARE MANY DICTIONARIES BEING MADE, AND I DON'T WANT TO GIVE VIEWERS THE WRONG IMPRESSION BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE OVER 500 TRIBES IN THE UNITED STATES, AND SOME HAVE LANGUAGES THAT ARE VERY, VERY HEALTHY.

SO WHEN I WAS OUT ON JANUARY 1ST AT LAGUNA PUEBLO, AT OLD LAGUNA, ALL OF THE WAR CHIEFS WHO PASSED THEIR CANES ON, THEY SPOKE FIRST IN LAGUNA FOR A GOOD TEN MINUTES AND THEN OR IN KERES, AND THEN THEY SWITCHED TO ENGLISH, THAT'S NOT THE CASE WITH MY CALIFORNIA TRIBE.

>>LORENE: WE JUST HAVE A MINUTE LEFT, BUT THERE'S JUST ONE QUOTE THAT YOU END WITH, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO GO BACK TO THE TRADITIONAL THING, IT'S NOT THERE ANYMORE.

YOU SAY, "DON'T WORRY YOUR ANCESTORS ARE KEEPING TRACK OF YOU.

WE ARE AT HOME ON THIS PLANET AND THE ANCIENT ONES WALK BESIDE US."

SO TELL US, HOW WE CAN HEAR THEM AND FEEL THEIR PRESENCE.

>>DEBORAH: I THINK FOR INDIGENOUS KIDS, I LIKE TO TELL THEM THAT, THAT CONNECTION IS SOMETHING THAT COMES THROUGH THE LAND.

I THINK THAT ALL OF US KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU GO BACK FAR ENOUGH IN ANYONE'S HISTORY, YOU EVENTUALLY MEET AN ANCESTOR WHO KNEW EXACTLY WHERE TO GO TO PICK THEIR CHESTNUTS AND BERRIES AND GET THE REST THAT THEY LIKED AND IT'S KNOWING WHO WE ARE IN RELATIONSHIP WITH THE EARTH THAT WILL HEAL US EVENTUALLY, I THINK.

>>LORENE: I THINK SO TOO.

WELL, I THANK YOU SO MUCH.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS DEBORAH JACKSON TAFFA AND HOLD UP THE BOOK AGAIN, IT'S CALLED WHISKEY TENDER .

I THINK IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY READ, ALL THE ACCOLADES YOU'VE GOT ARE REALLY WELL DESERVED.

I THINK, FOR ANYONE TO READ THAT, IT'S LIKE RECEIVING A GIFT, SO THANK YOU AND THANK YOU FOR GIVING US THE GIFT OF COMING IN TO SPEAK WITH US TODAY.

>>DEBORAH: IT WAS SUCH A GREAT PLEASURE, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: I REALLY WAS, I ENJOYED IT.

MY NAME IS LORENE MILLS AND YOU HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE.

OUR GUEST, DEBORAH JACKSON TAFFA, LOOK FOR HER BOOK IT'S CALLED WHISKEY TENDER .

I'M LORENE, I'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

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