>> WELCOME BACK OUR GUEST THIS WEEK IS THE POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FROM WASHINGTON AND AN AUTHOR WHO HAS A BRAND-NEW BOOK ON DONALD TRUMP.

OUR LEAD STORY OF MICHIGAN UPDATE ON GUN CONTROL LEGISLATION WITH SOME MOVEMENT BEING DETECTED.

ON THE OTR PANEL CHUCK STOKES AND MARTINA BELLTRAIN SITTING WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT OFF THE THE RECORD.

>> BUSINESS LEADERS OF MICHIGAN HAVE A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME, AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN'S ROAD TO TOP TEN .COM.

>> THANK YOU AND WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM OFF THE RECORD FOR THIS WEEKEND AND THANK YOU FOR TAKING TIME OUT OF YOUR BUSY SCHEDULE TO JOIN US ON THIS GREAT PANEL THAT WE HAVE ASSEMBLED HERE TODAY TO TALK WITH THE GUN ISSUE.

SENATE REPUBLICAN MAKING NOISE THAT HE WILL MAKE A HEARING ON ONE PIECE OF LEGISLATION DEMOCRATS WILL TAKE THAT AND RUN WITH IT AND THIS IS WHAT THEY ALSO SAID THIS WEEK ABOUT GUNS.

>> FIVE OF THE DEADLY SHOOTINGS IN THE LAST DECADE INVOLVE THE USE OF THE LAST THEREFORE THIS SENATOR WITH THE OXFORD HIGH SCHOOL IN HER DISTRICT WANTS TO LIMIT GUN MAGAZINES TO TEN BULLETS >> RESEARCH THAT STATES WITH THESE LIMITATIONS ON MAGAZINE SIZE EXPERIENCED MASS SHOOTINGS LESS THEN HALF THE RATE OF STATES THAT DO NOT APPEAR >> GUNS IN MICHIGAN ARE THE SECOND LEADING CAUSE OF DEATHS FOR THOSE BETWEEN THE AGES OF ONE AND 17.

AND THIS PEDIATRIC DOCTOR ARGUES THOSE WHO SURVIVE THOUGH SHOOTINGS HAVE THEIR OWN MEDICAL CHALLENGES.

>> THERE ARE THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF SECONDARY VICTIMS.

THOSE WHO WITNESS VIOLENCE CAN HAVE LIFELONG EFFECTS ON MENTAL, PHYSICAL, SCHOOL PERFORMANCE, PTSD, RISK OF FUTURE AGGRESSION, AND VIOLENT BEHAVIOR.

>> HOWEVER THIS PRO-GUN LAWMAKER ARGUES THAT THE OXFORD TRAGEDY IS NOT A GUN ISSUE.

IT IS A MENTAL HEALTH.

>> ANYONE I BELIEVE WHO HAS THIS TYPE OF AN INKLING AND THIS TYPE OF A LEANING THAT THEY ARE GOING TO GO ON A SHOOTING SPREE HAS SOME TYPE OF MENTAL ILLNESS.

SOMETHING IS WRONG.

THIS WAS NOT AN INDIVIDUAL FUNCTIONING IN THEIR CORRECT MENTAL STATUS AS A HUMAN BEING.

>> THIS DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKER SAW HER NEPHEW AND HER SON DIE AS A RESULT OF GUN VIOLENCE.

SHE SAYS THIS ABOUT ASSAULT WEAPONS.

>> MAGAZINES THAT CAN HOLD MORE THAN TEN ROUNDS ARE DESIGNED TO DO ONE THING AND THAT IS ONE THING ONLY.

TO KILL AS MANY ANIMALS AND HUMANS AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE IN THE SHORTEST AMOUNT OF TIME.

>> REPRESENTATIVE GREEN ARGUES THE ALLEGED SHOOTER IN OXFORD ALLEGEDLY BROKE NINE LAWS THAT WERE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS SO WHY CREATE MORE.

>> WHAT CAN WE PUT -- WHAT COULD WE HAVE DONE MORE LEGALLY, CREATE LAWS FOR HIM TO BREAK.

LAWS WILL NOT HELP MORAL PROBLEMS.

>> ANY ACTION ON THIS LEGISLATION OR OTHER BILLS WILL WAIT UNTIL THE NEW YEAR.

>> EMILY, WHERE ARE WE ON THIS?

IS THERE MOVEMENT OR IS THE MOVEMENT DISGUISED AS MOVEMENT?

>> IT IS HARD TO SAY.

IT FEELS LIKE EVERY TIME WE HAVE ONE OF THESE GUN TRAGEDIES THAT THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF TALK ABOUT THIS NOT JUST IN MICHIGAN BUT WE HAVE SEEN THIS HAD BEEN REPLICATED ACROSS THE NATION AND I THINK WE ARE SEEING THAT IN MICHIGAN NOW BUT IT IS RARE TO SEE REALLY BIG POLICY CHANGES BASED OFF THESE TYPES OF EVENTS BUT TO THE SENATOR POINT A TEN ROUND MAGAZINE, HER ARGUMENT IS THAT A LIMITATION COULD SAVE LIVES WE SAW THIS OXFORD SHOOTING UNFOLD IN A COUPLE OF MINUTES AND FOUR PEOPLE WERE DEAD IS THERE ANYTHING WE COULD DO TO LIMIT THE NUMBERS?

>> WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON WHAT IS HAPPENING IF ANYTHING?

>> I THINK THAT IT IS SO TRAGIC AND EVERYONE AGREES MAY BE SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE BUT NO ONE AGREES ON WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN AND I THINK ANOTHER BILL THE SENATORS ARE WAS ABOUT REQUIRING GUN OWNERS TO SECURE THEIR FIREARMS IF THEY WERE ACCESSIBLE OR COULD BE ACCESSED BY A MINOR AND YOU KNOW THERE ARE REPUBLICAN TO HAVE THE QUESTION OF HOW YOU CAN ENFORCE THAT AND THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION BUT I THINK THAT A LOT OF THE DEMOCRATS AND MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY REALLY DO THINK THAT IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU CAN'T ENFORCE IT WHAT MATTERS IS THAT YOU HAVE MECHANISMS IN PLACE THAT COULD POTENTIALLY PREVENT TRAGEDIES LIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN OXFORD.

>> WHAT HE MAKE OF MR. GREEN'S ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS NOT A GUN ISSUE BUT A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE?

>> THAT CERTAINLY IS ONE ARGUMENT BUT I THINK YOU HAVE TO SAY THAT IT IS A GUN VIOLENCE ISSUE PROBLEM NOT JUST OXFORD BUT ALL ACROSS THE NATION BUT IT IS ALSO A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE AND THEY HAVE TO BE DEALT WITH ON PARALLEL TRACKS AND THAT HAVE TO ALSO LOOK AT THE SCHOOL POLICIES THAT ARE NOT NECESSARILY UNIFORM ACROSS THE STATE OR EVEN ACROSS POLITICAL DISTRICTS DISTRICT OR SCHOOL DISTRICTS OR NATIONALLY.

AND SO THIS IT DOES HAVE TO BE DEALT WITH IN A BIPARTISAN WAY FOR REAL CHANGE.

WHAT WE SEE RIGHT NOW IS POLITICAL POSTURING RIGHTFULLY SELL THE NATIONAL PROBLEM HAS COME TO THE DOORSTEP OF MICHIGAN AND EVERYONE IS A ABOUT THIS IT IS A TRAGIC TRAGIC SITUATION BUT HARD TO CHANGE IN TERMS OF DEALING WITH THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH YOUR IN MICHIGAN BUT SO DOES THE REST OF THE NATION IN TRYING TO COME TO SOME SORT OF RESOLUTION OF WHAT WORKS THAT BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES CAN LIVE WITH IS WHERE THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD.

>> THERE HAS BEEN CHATTER IN THIS TOWN ABOUT A POSSIBLE PETITION DRIVE WORKING OUT THE ASSUMPTION THAT THIS REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE AT THE END OF THE DAY WILL DO SQUAT ON THIS ISSUE BUT THE DEMOCRATS AND SOME GROUPS COME TOGETHER TO DO A PETITION DRIVE TO PUT ON THE BALLOT IN 2022, IS THAT A GOOD IDEA OR A BAD IDEA OR NEUTRAL IDEA?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> IT IS COMPLICATED TO PUT SOMETHING ON THE BALLOT AT THE END OF THE DAY THEY HAVE TO GATHER A LOT OF SIGNATURES AND AGAIN IT IS A VERY POLARIZING ISSUE BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT REPUBLICANS ARE A LITTLE BIT MORE OPEN TO CONSIDERING OTHER ISSUES ONE OF THEM IS THE IDEA OF THE RED FLAG LAW THIS IS A LAW THAT WOULD ALLOW FAMILY MEMBERS TO PETITION IN COURT AND GET THE GUNS AWAY FROM SOMEONE WHO IS DEEMED A DANGER.

THE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER MIKE SHARKEY HAS SAID HE'S OPEN TO GIVING THAT BILL A HEARING AGAIN, THAT IS SOMETHING HE'S OPEN TO HEAR IT BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF IT GOES TO A VOTE AT THE END OF THE DAY AND HOW REPUBLICANS WOULD VOTE ON IT.

>> EMILY WHAT ABOUT A PETITION DRIVE THAT WOULD DRIVE SOME PEOPLE TO THE POLLS WOULD IT NOT?

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS AN EXPENSIVE PROPOSITION AS I THINK WE ALLUDED TO BUT THE OTHER THING IS YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE GUN -- THE COAT -- THE PRO SIDE OF THE DEBATE WOULD BE PRETTY WELL ORGANIZED THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT ALREADY SUBSCRIBED TO SPECIALTY MAGAZINES AND HAVE COMMITTED GATHERING PLACES LIKE SHOOTING RIDGES AND GUN STORES AND IT IS HARD TO ORGANIZE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE GUNS AROUND CERTAIN PRINCIPLES OWN OR ARE NOT INTERESTED IN AND SO I DO THINK IT WOULD BE A BIT OF AN UPHILL CLIMB.

>> THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE LAST TIME I CHECKED IN MICHIGAN MANY DEMOCRATS OWN GUN SO MAYBE THEY WOULDN'T LIKE IT IS A JOB AT THIS ON ABOUT WHAT YOUR TAKE?

>> THE RAISE AN AWFULLY GOOD POINT BECAUSE THIS ALSO DEALS WITH GUN OWNERSHIP AND RIGHTS AND PEOPLE FEELING AS THOUGH YOU'RE TAKING AWAY MY SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT TO BE ABLE HAVE A GUN AND THAT'S WHY THE LAST TIME I FACED COMMENTS HERE I EMPHASIZE THAT WERE TALKING ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE AND LET'S NOT CONFUSE THAT BETWEEN BUT ANY TIME YOU START TALKING LEGISLATION THAT IS GOING TO COME UP OF HOW MUCH ARE YOU INFRINGING UPON MY RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A GUN TO PROTECT MYSELF AND PROTECT MY FAMILY AND THIS IS A VERY VIOLENT NATION RIGHT NOW AND THAT WILL BE OF HUGE DEBATE.

IT ALWAYS HAPPENS ON THE BACKDROP OF EITHER A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR OR A GUBERNATORIAL YEAR AND WE ARE ENTERING A GUBERNATORIAL ELECTION.

>> EMILY HAVE YOU SPENT YOUR $400 FROM THE CATASTROPHIC FUND YET?

THEY'RE GIVING EVERYBODY MONEY BACK NEXT YEAR, TELL US ABOUT IT.

>> WHILE THE TIMELINE ON THE CHECKS IS A LITTLE BIT SQUISHY SO I CAN'T SAY I HAVE MIND AND HAND BUT CERTAINLY IT LOOKS LIKE A NICE HOLIDAY PRESENT FOR MICHIGAN RESIDENTS THE FUND HAD CLIMBED TO $5 BILLION OF THEIR OVERAGES IN THE FUND AND THE GOVERNOR CAME UP WITH A UNIQUE IDEA TO GIVE IT BACK EARLY.

REPUBLICANS HAVE PRAYS THAT DECISION AS WELL.

>> THE SPEAKER SAID WAY TO THE GOVERNOR HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS HE WANTED TO TAKE SOME OF THE CREDIT.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> I AM NOT SURPRISED, EVERYONE WANTS TO CLAIM THAT THEY ARE GIVING AWAY $400.

I'M NOT SURPRISED AT ALL.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE REASON THAT WE ARE HERE WAS BECAUSE OF THE 2019 AUTO INSURANCE REFORM AND BACK BACK THEN WHEN LAWMAKERS AND THE GOVERNOR SIGNED THE LAW THEY ALL CLAIMED THAT THIS WOULD PROVIDE SOME REAL RELIEF TO MICHIGAN MODERATES AND I THINK THAT THEY WILL PROBABLY POINT THIS OUT AND SAY THIS IS THE RELIEF WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BUT I'M NOT SURPRISED I THINK THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY BOTH SIDES, THE GOVERNOR AND THE REPUBLICANS THAT ISSUED THIS CAME TOGETHER BACK THEN AND PASS THIS LEGISLATION AND THIS IS THE RESULT.

>> THE CHECKS WILL ARRIVE IN THE MAIL JUST IN THE MIDDLE OF NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION.

I WONDER IF THAT IS BY ACCIDENT?

>> HOW ABOUT THAT?

JOURNALISTS CAN BE A LITTLE BIT CYNICAL BUT YOU ARE RIGHT, WHEN I HEARD AT THE FIRST THING THAT WHETHER MY MIND WAS THAT WILL BE GREAT TIMING RIGHT AROUND SPRINGTIME IN THE HEAT OF A GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN.

>> SHAME ON BUT, LOOK, THE CATASTROPHIC FUND SAYS IT WILL TAKE TIME TO TEE IT UP AND THAT SO THE MOTORIST DON'T REALLY CARE WHEN THEY GET IT AS LONG AS THEY GET IT ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ANYBODY COMING BACK FOR ANYTHING.

BUT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS THAT MIGHT COME UP DURING THE DEBATES NEXT YEAR AND DID WE MISS A STEP IN THE ORIGINAL LEGISLATION THAT SO MUCH MONEY IS NOW HAVING TO COME BACK.

BECAUSE THERE WAS CRITICISM WE REMEMBER STANDING UP ON MAC MACKINAC ISLAND WHEN THEY SIGNED ALL THAT ON THE PORCH OF THE GRAND HOTEL AND THEY SAID THIS IS THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD FOR MICHIGAN MOTORISTS BUT THERE WAS CRITICISM THEN AND THERE WILL STILL BE SOME CRITICISM THAT WELL MAYBE IT WASN'T THE GREATEST THING AND YOU MADE SOME SLOPPY LEGISLATION WITH ERRORS AND IT NOW I HAVE TO GIVE HER THE MONEY BACK SO THAT COULD BE USED AS A BIT OF A WEAPON AGAINST THE GOVERNOR AS WELL.

>> PLUSH OF THE BRAIN INJURY PEOPLE THAT HAVE THESE 45 PERCENT CUT TO SERVICES AND PEOPLE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO GET THE SERVICES SO WHERE IS OUR MONEY?

WE WANT THAT AS WELL SO THAT STILL BREWING, QUICKLY ON REDISTRICTING, THE SUPREME COURT NEXT WEDNESDAY WILL HEAR AN ARGUMENT ON THE RELEASE OF INFORMATION THAT THE COMMISSION HAS SAID IS OUR INFORMATION WE WILL NOT RELEASE THIS AND THERE IS NOTHING THE THAT'S NEFARIOUS IN THERE.

DO YOU WANT TAKE A SHOT AT WHO WITNESS?

>> I AM NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF PREDICTING.

>> SMART MAN.

>> IT IS SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE WE ARE SEEING IS THE TWO LARGEST NEWSPAPERS IN THE TRADE AND FREE PRESS AND NEWS BRIDGET MICHIGAN WHICH IS OUTLET I WORK FOR AND THE MICHIGAN PRESS ASSOCIATION BANDING TOGETHER SUING THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION AND TELLING THEM PAY YOU PROMISED THAT YOU BE TRANSPARENT BUT FORGET ABOUT YOUR PROMISES THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE TRANSPARENT AND ALL THE MATERIALS ARE USED TO DRAW THE DISTRICTS HAS TO BE MADE PUBLIC AND THEY'RE TAKING THEM TO TASK AND THE SUPREME COURT AND IT WILL BE INTERESTING.

I THINK THE PRESS IS IT'S PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO NOTE THAT THE COMMISSION IS FIGHTING FOR THEIR RIGHT TO KEEP THIS SEALED UNDER THE GUISE OF ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE.

>> EMILY, CLEARLY ON THE OPTICS RENT THE COMMISSION IS PLAYING CATCH-UP HERE AND IT DOES NOT LOOK GOOD.

>> AT THE COMMISSION HAS DEFINITELY BEEN IN THE BUSINESS OF NOT REALLY MAKING ANYBODY HAPPY WITH HOW THEY HAVE OPERATED AND I THINK THAT HAS BEEN A TREND THAT OBVIOUSLY IS COMING TO A HEAD IN THIS LAWSUIT AND THE PRESS ASSOCIATION AND THE THREE OUTLETS THAT SERGIO MENTIONED ARE PRETTY SERIOUS ABOUT THIS.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN COVERING VERY VERY CLOSELY OF COURSE IT RUNS COUNTER TO WHAT THE STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS SAID SHOULD HAPPEN AND IT SEEMS LIKE THE ATTORNEYS FOR THE COMMISSION REALLY COULD BE ON A BIT OF AN ISLAND HERE.

>> CHUCK, IF WE HAD A DOCUMENT THAT WE LOOKED AT AND SAID THERE IS NOTHING WRONG IN HERE WHY WOULD WE SHOW TO THE PUBLIC?

AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM ISN'T IT?

>> IT IS.

TRANSPARENCY ESPECIALLY WITH THE COMMISSION THAT WAS SET UP TO BE TRANSPARENT AND TO BE INDEPENDENT NOW, YOU HAVE THE ARGUMENT FROM THEIR LAWYER SAYING THIS IS ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE AND THAT THEY ARE NOT HIDING ANYTHING BUT LIKE YOU JUST POINTED OUT, IF YOU ARE NOT HIDING ANYTHING THEN WHY ARE YOU WILLING TO SHOW IT?

WHAT TURNED OUT TO BE INTERESTING AND THIS IS THAT YOU LOOK AT HOW IT WAS SPLIT POLITICALLY HERE AND THE DEMOCRATS ON THEIR SAID THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO RELEASE IT AND REPUBLICANS WERE SPLIT DOWN THE MIDDLE AND I THINK BACK TO THE JUDGE DAYMOND KEY IS A STAUNCH DEMOCRAT WHO CAME OUT WITH THE GREAT FEDERAL LINE, DEMOCRACIES DIE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND THAT IS OR DEALING WITH HERE IN THE MICHIGAN SUPREME COURT IS GOING TO HAVE TO SORT OUT WHO IS RIGHT AND HE WAS WRONG AND FOR THOSE OF US IN THE MEDIA, IT IS GOOD THAT THEY HAVE THIS SUIT GOING SO WE CAN FIGURE IT OUT BECAUSE TRANSPARENCY IS ALWAYS IMPORTANT.

>> I WANT TO ADD SOMETHING.

THE MEMOS THAT WERE DISCUSSED BEHIND CLOSED DOORS HAVE TO DO WITH VOTING RIGHTS AND THE HISTORY OF DISCRIMINATION IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN AND IN THESE MEMOS BASICALLY WE HAD A COMMISSIONER ON THE RECORD SAYING THAT USE THESE MEMOS TO INFORM THE DRAWING OF DISTRICTS POTENTIALLY MINORITY MAJORITY DISTRICTS WE KNOW MICHIGAN HAD 17 LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS THAT WERE MAJORITY MINORITY MAJORITY BLACK ESPECIALLY IN THIS AREA AND NOW ALL THE MAPS SHOW A SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION OF THOSE MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICTS SO THIS IS IMPACTING BLACK VOTERS, BLACK RESIDENTS, BLACK LEADERS, AND THOSE OF THE DISCUSSIONS THAT WE ARE SO WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE BECAUSE THE COMMISSIONER REFUSES TO PROVIDE THOSE DOCUMENTS.

>> EVERYONE AND THEIR UNCLE WANT TO BE THERE THEY COULD LOWER THE NATIONAL DEBT LET'S CALL HIM DAVID DOWN IN WASHINGTON FELLOW POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT DAVID, WELCOME TO OFF THE RECORD HOW ARE YOU DOING MAN?

>> I'M REALLY GREAT AND GOOD TO GOD TO BE HERE.

>> I WILL FEEL LIKE JOHNNY CARSON SHOW US YOUR SIR.

IN TRUMP'S SHADOW DID YOU ACTUALLY WRITE THAT THING?

>> TALK TO MY RIGHT I ABSENT -- I ACTUALLY WROTE IT I WAS ABSENT HE HAS AND FATHER DURING THE ENTIRE PERIOD THAT I WROTE THIS THING SO SHE IS PRETTY SURE THAT I WROTE IT.

EITHER THAT OR I WAS DOING SOMETHING ELSE.

TO GIVE US 30 SECONDS IF I WAS TO WRITE A LEAD ON THIS BOOK WHAT WOULD IT BE?

>> IT'S ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S IMPACT ON THE REBOOKING PARTY AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE PARTY GOING FORWARD I TRY TO WRITE A FORWARD-LOOKING TRUMP BOOK AND WHAT I DISCOVERED IS THAT TRUMP REALLY REPRESENTS A GENERATIONAL BREAK WITH THE REAGAN ERA INSIDE A REPUBLICAN PARTY AND I TOOK A LOOK AT HOW THAT COULD UNFOLD IN 2024 WHETHER TRUMP RUNS OR NOT.

>> LET'S PICK UP THE QUESTION FROM CHUCK STOKES.

>> A SIMPLE QUESTION BASED UPON ALL THE REPORTING IN YOUR RESEARCH AND I KNOW YOU DON'T HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL BUT IF YOU HAD TO PLACE A BET TODAY DOES WILL HE RUN AGAIN?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND I ALWAYS ENTER TO THIS THE SAME WAY, I THINK IT'S 5050 AND SOMETHING PEOPLE SAY SO YOU THINK HE WON'T RUN AND I SAY NO NO I THINK IT IS 50, 50 BECAUSE HE TELL US MOST PEOPLE THAT HE WILL RUN AND WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM IN A LARGO BACK IN MAY I SAID CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE OTHER PEOPLE LOOKING TO RUN IN 2024, WHO WOULD YOU PREFER BUT WASN'T YOU?

AND HE SAID WHY DO YOU THINK I WON'T RUN?

AND I SAID YOU'RE FREE TO BREAK NEWS HERE AND THE POINT I'M GETTING AT HERE IS THAT I THINK THAT HE WANTS TO RUN AND ON MANY DAYS HE IS CONVINCED HE WILL RUN BUT I DON'T THINK HE REALLY KNOWS WHAT HE WILL DO UNTIL HE GETS THERE AND I SPOKE TO PEOPLE IN TRUMP'S ORBIT WHO TELL ME HE MIGHT ULTIMATELY CONCLUDE THAT THE TRAPPINGS OF THE EX-PRESIDENT SEE A LOT MORE APPEALING THAN THE TRAPPINGS OF THE ACTUAL PRESIDENCY -- ACTUAL PRESENT HE ACTUAL PRESIDENCY BECAUSE HE'S ALREADY BEEN THERE DONE THAT.

>> DO YOU THINK IT'S REALLY HIS DECISION TO MAKE OR WOULD IT BE THE PARTY'S DECISION TO MAKE BECAUSE OF THEIR INFLUENCE AT THIS JUNCTURE?

>> THE THING TO UNDERSTAND AND I THINK THAT SHOWS UP TIME AND TIME AGAIN IN TRUMP SHADOW IS THAT THE PARTY STRUCTURE IS A WEEK AND IT FOR SOME TIME SO REALLY IT IS UP TO VOTERS IN ONE OF THE REASON DONALD TRUMP'S REMAIN SUCH A POTENT FORCE IN THE PARTY ONE OF THE REASONS WHY REPUBLICANS AND AROUND THE COUNTRY STILL WORRY ABOUT GETTING ON HIS BAD SIDE IS BECAUSE THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT GETTING ON THE BAD SIDE OF THEIR OWN VOTERS.

AND SO IF DONALD TRUMP RUNS IF HE HAS AS MUCH SUPPORT FOR THIRD BID AS POLLING SUGGESTS THEN HE WILL BE THE NOMINEE BUT IF VOTERS START TO LOOK IN OTHER DIRECTIONS WHICH IS POSSIBLE BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME REPUBLICAN VOTERS AND I'VE SPOKEN WITH THEM WHO ARE GRATEFUL FOR WHAT HE ACCOMPLISHED BUT WOULD LIKE FRESH LEADERSHIP THEN HE WILL HAVE A TOUGHER TIME AND WHAT I AM CONVINCED OF IS THAT NOBODY ELSE WANTS TO RUN IN 2024 VIRTUALLY NO ONE ELSE IS STANDING DOWN AND PREPARE THEM TO RUN AND I EXPECT SOME TO RUN EVEN IF THEY SEE THAT TRUMP WILL RUN WHETHER THEY WIN IS A DIFFERENT STORY BUT HE WON'T SCARE EVERYONE OFF AND THEY ARE ALL BUSY PREPARING AS WE SPEAK.

>> FOLLOWING UP ON WHAT YOU SAID HERE, I MEAN TRUMP IS STILL VERY POPULAR AMONG MANY REPUBLICANS AND YOU KNOW YOU CAN SEE HERE IN MICHIGAN HE IS VERY POPULAR BUT I WONDER WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT LEGITIMATE CANDIDATES WILL BE WILLING TO RISK IT ALL AND RUN AGAINST TRUMP AND POTENTIALLY LOSE.

WE KNOW HOW HE CAMPAIGNS, HE GOES AFTER THEM, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT THEY WILL SAY YES?

>> THE WHITE HOUSE IS A HELL OF A DRUG AND MANY REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN PLANNING TO RUN FOR QUITE SOME TIME AND IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE THEY ARE IN THEIR CAREERS AND THEIR AGES SOME OF THEM WILL LOOK AT 2024 AND SAY TO THEMSELVES UNLESS I WANT TO BE THE NEXT JOE BIDEN OR DONALD TRUMP SOMEONE IN THEIR LATE 70S, EARLY 80S WHO IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, NOW IS MY TIME AND I THINK THEY ALSO LOOK AT WHAT TRUMP DID IN 2016 AND THEY WILL SAY TO THEMSELVES YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF YOU DON'T RUN.

WE FORGET SOMETIMES IF YOU GO BACK TO 2015 WHEN TRUMP WAS TALKING ABOUT RUNNING AND HE FIRST GOT INTO THE RACE AND NO ONE REALLY THOUGHT HE WOULD RUN THEN HE RAN AND THE NO ONE THOUGHT HE HAD A CHANCE THAT HE WON THE NOMINATION BUT HE CAN'T BE HILLARY CLINTON AND A LITTLE OF THE ENDS UP IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND BECAME VERY CLOSE TO WINNING A SECOND TERM AND SO I THINK SOME REPUBLICANS WILL SAY WHAT DO I HAVE TO LOSE?

BECAUSE I'LL BE RIGHT BACK IN THE POSITION THAT I AM IN RIGHT NOW IF I IT DOESN'T WORK OUT AND THEM I PUT MYSELF IN A BETTER POSITION TO BE SELECTED VICE PRESIDENT, TO BE SELECTED FOR CAP THE POSITION IF I THROW AND SOME OF THEM JUST REALLY BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BE PRESIDENT.

PEOPLE FORGET IT REALLY IS A HUMAN ENDEAVOR BECAUSE I INTERVIEWED MIKE POMPEO FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE BACK IN SEPTEMBER FOR THE IN A TRUMP'S SHADOW PODCAST WHICH IS A COMPANION TO THE IN TRUMP SHADOW BOOK AND I SAID TO HIM, I KNOW YOU WON'T TELL ME AT THIS EARLY STAGE BUT WITH TRUMP RUNNING WITH THAT PRECLUDE YOU FROM RUNNING AUTOMATICALLY AND WHAT HE SAID IS IF YOU BELIEVE YOU SHOULD BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU NEED TO OFFER THEN IT SHOULDN'T MATTER WHO ELSE IS RUNNING BECAUSE IF YOU'RE WILLING TO STAND DOWN AUTOMATICALLY JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE IS IN THE RACE YOU DON'T HAVE WHAT IT TAKES.

>> FOLLOW-UP?

>> YES, I MEAN YOU HEARD THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TALK ABOUT THIS IDEA OF EXPANDING THIS AND MAKING THE PARTY MORE INCLUSIVE AND PRESIDENT TRUMP YOU KNOW WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT AND HE WAS RUNNING HE CLEARLY ATTRACTED A LOT OF THE LATINO VOTE, BLACK VOTERS, I AM WONDERING IF THE OTHER FOLKS THAT HAVE OR HAVE YOU TALKED ABOUT THEM CONSIDERING RENTING IF THEY COULD STILL HAVE THE SAME POLE OF THE MINORITY GROUP IN NEEDED THAT'S -- THAT IS NEEDED TO WIN THE PRESIDENCY.

I THINK SOME OF THEM COULD I THINK IT'S ALL ABOUT POSITIONING AND HOW YOU TALK WITH THE ISSUES AND WHETHER OR NOT YOU SHOW UP IN COMMUNITIES AND CAMPAIGN.

IF WE LOOK AT THE GOVERNOR'S RACE IN VIRGINIA AND THAT YOU KNOW THAT WAS NOVEMBER JUST THIS PASS NOVEMBER IT SHOWED WHAT A SUCCESS REPUBLICAN COALITION COULD LOOK LIKE.

HE DID WELL WITH SUBURBAN VOTERS.

HE WAS ABLE TO MAINTAIN THE SUPPORT OF A LOT OF THE WHITE WORKING-CLASS RURAL VOTERS THAT ONLY SHOWED UP IN THE PASS FEW YEARS AND VOTED REPUBLICAN BECAUSE OF TRUMP.

AT THE SAME TIME GLENN DID WELL WITH THE NONWHITE VOTERS HE DID WELL WITH HISPANICS, ASIANS, AND HE DID DECENT WITH THE BLACK VOTE.

I THINK THAT IT IS A MATTER OF THE ISSUES YOU RUN ON AND WHETHER OR NOT YOU SHOW UP AND TALK TO PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT THEY CARE ABOUT.

POLITICS SOMETIMES MADE TO COMPLICATED IS CANDIDATES LOOK FOR THESE DIFFERENT WEIRD WAYS OF TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER A VICTORY AND REALLY IT COMES DOWN TO IDENTIFYING ISSUES OF THAT COMMUNITIES CARE ABOUT AND MAKING THEM BELIEVE THAT YOU CARE ABOUT THEM IT HELPS IF YOU ACTUALLY DO AND THEN SHOW UP AND I THINK THERE ARE IF THEY JUST BOTHER TO DO IT.

>> WE WILL DO IT OVERTIME SEGMENT BUT THEN WE HAVE TIME FOR YOUR QUESTIONS.

>> I READ THE BOOK AND WHETHER IN THE INSIGHTS I GOT WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE I KNOW THAT THE FOCUS WAS ON THE CANDIDATES AND POTENTIAL CANDIDATES HERE BUT REALLY DID HAPPEN TO THE FACT THAT THE REPUBLICAN BASE IS LOOKING FOR A FIGHTER AND THAT IS PART OF WHAT DREW THEM TO DONALD TRUMP IN 2016.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS STILL TRUE IN 2024?

AND HOW WELL DOES THAT SERVE THE PARTY'S INTEREST?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND IT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS I LEARNED IN REPORTING AND TRUMP SHADOW.

FIRST, I WAS SPEAKING WITH REPUBLICAN STRATEGISTS ACROSS THE SPECTRUM OF THE PARTY WHETHER THEY LIKE TO TRUMP OR HIT A OVER OR SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE AND WHEN I ASKED THEM WHAT IS THE ISSUE THAT WILL MATTER THE MOST REPUBLICAN PRIMARY IN 2024 ALMOST UNIVERSALLY AND UNPROMPTED THEY WOULD TELL ME DIFFERENT CONSULTANT STRATEGISTS THAT YOU NEED TO COMMUNICATE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS THAT YOU ARE A FIGHTER AND YOU WILL FIGHT FOR THEM.

WHEN I INTERVIEW DONALD TRUMP AT MARL LARGO FOR IN TRUMPS SHADOW AND I ASKED HIM TO TELL ME WHAT HE THOUGHT HIS BIGGEST IMPACT ON THE PARTY WAS I THOUGHT MAYBE HE WOULD TALK ABOUT THE ABRAHAM ACCORD OR HIS TAX OVERHAUL OR MAY BE ABOUT IMMIGRATION OR ANY NUMBER ISSUES LIKE TRADE OF ISSUES A TRADE AND HE TOLD ME I THINK I TAUGHT THEM HOW TO FIGHT AND SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT 2024 AND WHEN IT WOULD TAKE TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN A A PRIMARY AND IF TRUMP DOESN'T RUN YOU WILL HAVE COLLECTION OF CANDIDATES AND WHAT YOU REALLY HAVE TO DO IS MAKE VOTERS BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR THEM AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT IN A WAY THAT IS AUTHENTIC BECAUSE IF YOU ARE JUST GOING TO MIMIC TRUMP VOTERS WILL PICK UP ON THAT AND THINK YOU ARE TRYING TO PULL ONE OVER ON THEM.

THAT'S THE BIGGEST THING YOU CAN DO WHETHER OR NOT IT'S GOOD FOR THE PARTY IS A DIFFERENT STORY BUT I WILL SAY THAT IF YOU CAN DO IT IN A WAY THAT BROADENS THE TEMPERATURE AND BRINGS IT MORE VOTERS VOTERS LIKE POLITICIANS WHO THEY THINK ARE FIGHTING FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN AND ARE DOING THE THINGS THAT THEY WANT.

IT'S NOT NECESSARILY A BAD QUALITY TO BE -- QUALITY -- A BAD QUALITY BUT HOW YOU DO IT, DO YOU DO IN A WAY THAT BRINGS YOU MORE VOTERS OR IS IT DIVISIVE AND POLARIZING WHERE YOU GET STRONG LOYALTY IN SOME COMMUNITIES BUT THAN OTHERS LOOK THE OTHER WAY AND IN FACT RUN THE OTHER WAY.

>> DAVID, IF YOU WERE A BETTING MAN, DO YOU BET THAT HE DOES RUN?

>> THAT'S A TOUGH BET IF I HAD TO BET THE DAY I WOULD BET THAT HE RUNS BUT I'M NOT CONVINCED HE WILL.

>> ON THAT DODGE WE WILL TAKE A BREAK HERE AND LOOK AT THE CLOSE CREDITS APPEAR GO TO MORE CONVERSATION TO OUR WEBSITE THIS BOOK AND HIS CONVERSATION WITH DONALD TRUMP.

>> LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN'S ROAD TO TOP TEN .COM.

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