>> WELCOME BACK TO OFF THE RECORD.

THIS WEEK RESPONSE TO THE OXFORD SCHOOL KILLINGS AND A BILLION-DOLLAR TAX CREDIT PROGRAMS ALL THE WAY TO THE GOVERNOR AND ON THE OTR PANEL SITTING WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT, OFF THE RECORD.

>> PRODUCTION IS MADE POSSIBLE BY BUSINESS LEADERS FOR MICHIGAN STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME, AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY.

LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN'S ROAD TO TOP TEN .COM.

AND NOW THIS EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD.

>> THANK YOU AND WELCOME SMACK SMACK DAB IN THE MIDDLE OF THE HOLIDAY SEASON AND WE HOPE EVERYTHING IS GOING WELL AND PEACEFULLY FOR YOU AND YOUR HERE WITH OUR FAMILY OF JOURNALISTS IS NICE TO HAVE YOU ON BOARD.

THE MICHIGAN LEGISLATOR THIS WEEK SET A NEW LAND SPEED RECORD IT TOOK THEM 79 DAYS TO CORRECT THE ERROR OF LOSING THE FORD ELECTRIC PLANT WITH THE HOPES THAT THIS BILLION-DOLLAR PACKAGE THAT THEY APPROVED IN A GM ELECTRIC PLANT RIGHT IN OUR BACKYARD.

LET'S LOOK.

NOT EVERYONE UNDER THE CAPITOL DOME LAST NIGHT WAS PLEASED WITH THE ONE BILLION-DOLLAR DOLLAR BUSINESS INCENTIVE TAX CREDIT PACKAGE.

IN FACT 33 PERCENT OF ALL LAWMAKERS VOTED NO INCLUDING A LIBERAL DEMOCRAT CYNTHIA JOHNSON WHO CALLED THE PROGRAM QUOTE CORPORATE WELFARE.

AND THESE TWO LOCAL REPUBLICAN SENATORS TOM BARRETT AND MONETIZE WERE ALSO A NO VOTE IN THIS ANALYST REJECTED USING YOUR TAX DOLLARS FOR SOME BUSINESSES WHILE OTHERS GO WITHOUT.

GET >> TO THE WAY TO IMPROVE THE STATE IS BY IMPROVING BUSINESS CLIMATE FOR EVERYONE NOT FOR A HANDFUL OF COMPANIES SELECTED BY OUR LAWMAKERS.

>> THE GOVERNOR DISAGREES SAYING THE PACKAGE WILL EMPOWER MICHIGAN TO GROW ON A TRACK OF BILLIONS IN INVESTMENTS AND TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GOOD PAYING JOBS.

AND THE HEAD OF THE SBA LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR BRIAN KELLEY THE GOVERNOR SAID THIS IS A GAME CHANGER AND THIS BUSINESS LOBBYIST ARGUES MICHIGAN HAS TO COMPETE WITH OTHER STATES OR ELSE.

>> WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED OVER THE LAST DECADE IS THAT IF MICHIGAN WANTS TO BE COMPETITIVE FOR THE NEXT GENERATION OF JOBS WE NEED TO BE COMPETITIVE WITH OTHER STATES APPEAR >> SUPPORTER OF THIS PROPOSAL HOPE TO THESE TAX INCENTIVES WILL CONVINCE A GENERAL MOTORS THAT IT SHOULD TO BUILD THE ELECTRIC CAR BATTERY FACILITY IN DELTA TOWNSHIP AND THIS BUSINESS LEADER CONTENTS OF MICHIGAN WANTS TO REMAIN IN THE CAR CAPITOL OF THE WORLD IT NEEDS TO DO THIS.

>> HOLD ON TO THE AUTOMOTIVE EXCELLENCE AND TO DO THAT WE WILL HAVE TO HOLD ONTO A BIG PIECE OF WHAT IS THE NEW REALITY ELECTRIC VEHICLES AT AUTONOMOUS VEHICLES APPEAR >> THE 102 LAWMAKERS WHO VOTED YES HAVE THEIR FINGERS CROSSED THAT GM WILL SAY MICHIGAN.

>> THAT COLLECTIVE SIGH OF RELIEF YOU HEARD OF THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE WAS THE GOVERNOR GOING OKAY THAT WAS CLOSE.

SHE WAS HEADING INTO A FORD BLOTCH ON HER RECORD.

NOW SHE CAN SAY BOYS AND GIRLS HE HAS SOMETHING FOR YOU.

>> NOT ONLY THAT THE SENATOR WHO'S BEEN HELPING LEAD THE CHARGE SAID THAT THERE IS A POSSIBLE FOR PROJECTS THAT COULD BE LINED UP TO THIS ECONOMIC INCENTIVE PACKAGE AND WE DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS CONSIDERING THAT THERE IS A NUMBER OF LAWMAKERS WHO HAVE ADMITTED QUITE OPENLY THEY SIGNED AN NDA REGARDING THIS.

BUT THIS IS UNDER $1.5 BILLION TO INCENTIVIZE COMPANIES TO COME TO MICHIGAN TO PUT DOWN THEIR ROOTS AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THE GOVERNOR CAN'T CLAIM A WIN ON.

>> WE WILL SEE A CAMPAIGN ON THAT WHAT WE?

>> WE ARE.

TO TAKE A TRIP DOWN MEMORY LANE.

JON NUMBER NSWILLA RUN JENNIFER GRAHAM AND WILL BE BLOWN AWAY, RICK SCHNEIDER ECONOMIC GARDEN, AND NOW HERE WE ARE ONCE AGAIN EMBROILED IN THE INCENTIVES DEBATE AND WHETHER THE STATE IS PICKING WINNERS OR LOSERS ESPECIALLY WITH THE WINNERS ARE BIG MANUFACTURERS.

>> WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS ERIC?

>> IT WAS QUITE EYE-OPENING ONCE THE FORD TO WAS ANNOUNCED AND APPARENTLY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE GOVERNOR WERE COMPLETELY BLINDSIDED BY THIS AND WERE NOT AWARE THAT EVEN HAD A CHANCE FOR THIS AND THEY REALIZED HOW SHORT MICHIGAN WAS COMING WHEN IT CAME TO COMPETING.

IN TENNESSEE HAS 3,000 ACRES AVAILABLE FOR THEM, $400 MILLION AND WHATNOT INCENTIVES AND MICHIGAN REALIZED THAT THEY HAD TO BE THERE BECAUSE IF YOU ARE GATHERING BATTERY PLANTS GOING DOWN TO OTHER STATES THAT MEANS THE MANUFACTURING WILL FOLLOW THEM LATER BECAUSE THE BATTERIES ARE THE MOST EXPENSIVE AND HEAVIEST PART OF THE ELECTRIC CARS SO THEY WILL MAKE IT EASIER ON THEMSELVES AND SO IT MAKES SENSE THAT THERE HAS TO BE SOME SORT OF COMPETITION.

THE STATE HAD TO DO SOMETHING.

BUT THERE IS QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN ON HOW THE PROGRAM WILL KEEP GOING AND HOW MUCH IT WILL COST AND IF IT REALLY WILL TRICKLE DOWN LIKE THEY LIKE TO SAY IT WILL APPEAR >> JORDAN THAT IS A GOOD POINT THAT THE SENATOR WAS ONE OF THE LEAD PLAYERS I REMEMBER TALKING TO HIM ON THAT FATEFUL DAY WHEN THE 40 STORY BROKE AND HE WAS LIBERATED THAT MICHIGAN WAS NOT IN THE GATE MAKING A PROPOSAL.

THE REPUBLICAN HAD A CHANCE TO STIFF THE GOVERNOR AND NOT GIVE HER THE PACKAGE DID THEY NOT?

>> IF THEY DID BUT I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT DEFINITELY TRANSCENDS THE BOUNDARIES OF POLITICS SO TO SPEAK.

IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING AS BIG AS A 1.5 BILLION-DOLLAR ECONOMICS PACKAGE AND ESPECIALLY IF YOU OR SOMEONE WHO -- SUCH AS SENATOR WARREN WAS SO OUTSPOKEN ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE WAS HIGHLY DISAPPOINTED FORD WENT AND SIGNED ELSEWHERE THAT IT WOULD BE SILLY FOR THEM TO LOOK AT THIS AND SAY NOPE WE VALUE POLITICS OVER WHAT THIS COULD BRING TO MICHIGAN.

>> THE GOVERNOR AND -- I WOULD ASSUME THAT THIS BILL, SIGNING WILL HAVE REPUBLICANS WITH HER.

IS THAT IF THEY -- IS THAT A FAIR GUESS?

>> YES THIS IS AN EVENT THAT WHEN IT HAPPENS EVERYONE HAS TO COME TOGETHER.

NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO GO BACK TO THEIR DISTRICT AND SAY RUN FOR REELECTION ON THE PREMISE THAT MICHIGAN WAS DEALT WITH THIS CATASTROPHE AND IN THE POLITICAL CLASS DID NOTHING.

>> AND HERE THEY DID SOMETHING.

AS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CAMPAIGN COMMERCIALS OF THE GOVERNOR HAS ONE COMING OUT OF THE $400 THAT EVERYONE'S GETTING BACK ON THEIR CAR INSURANCE WHICH IS A SURPRISE.

>> YES AND SHE IS TOUTING THAT AS A WIN AND ALMOST IMMEDIATELY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE POINTED OUT OR WANTED TO STRESS THAT SHE WAS AGAINST THIS NO-FAULT INSURANCE FOR THE LONGEST TIME, THE REFORM, UP UNTIL THE VERY END WHEN THEY WERE ABLE TO FORCE HER HAND.

IT HAS BECOME THE POLITICAL GAME WHERE BOTH SIDES WILL CLAIM CREDIT FOR IT BUT I THINK IT WILL BE SOMETHING HITTING PEOPLE'S BANK ACCOUNTS JUST THREE TO FOUR MONTHS BEFORE THE PRIMARY AND THEN THE GENERAL ELECTION AND WE WILL HEAR ABOUT THIS A LOT OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.

>> SUPREME COURT TOOK ORAL ARGUMENTS THIS WEEK ON WHETHER THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION VIOLATED STATE LAW BY GOING BEHIND CLOSED DOORS ET CETERA, WHERE ARE WE?

>> IT IS JUST A ANOTHER PEBBLE THAT THE RIPPLING OUT OF THE CONFUSION THAT IS DEFINING THIS ENTIRE PROCESS AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE THE COMMISSION MET BEHIND CLOSED DOORS WITH ITS LEGAL COUNSEL WHICH ADVISED THAT THAT IS WHAT THEY SHOULD DO THIS BY THE LANGUAGE AND THE CONSTITUTION AMENDMENT ADOPTED BY VOTERS THAT SAID THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DELIBERATE IN PUBLIC.

THERE ARE MINUTES FROM THAT MEETING THAT THE COMMISSION HAS ALSO REFUSED TO RELEASE ARGUING THAT THAT IS CONFIDENTIAL ADVICE FROM LEGAL COUNSEL EVEN THOUGH THE COMMISSION IS NOT YET AT THIS JUNCTURE EMBROILED IN ANY KIND OF LITIGATION AND THE SUPREME COURT IS EXPECTED TO WRAP UP THAT PRETTY QUICKLY BECAUSE BECAUSE WE ARE COMING TO THE END OF THAT PROCESS.

>> I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY BUT I PLAY ONE ON TV.

MY GUESS IS THE SUPREMES GO WITH THE NEWSPAPERS THAT BROUGHT THIS SUIT.

>> WELL, AND OUR EDITOR WROTE A BLOG ABOUT THIS WHICH I FEEL IT'S IMPORTANT TO STRESS, AT THE CORE THE JUSTICES ARE ALSO ATTORNEYS SO WE CAN'T UNDERSTATE HOW HIGHLY THEY MUST VALUE ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE WHICH IS WHAT THIS COMES DOWN TO.

WERE TALKING BUT THE PAPERS, THE MICHIGAN PRESS ASSOCIATION, THEY ARE ARGUING THAT ATTORNEY CLIENT PRIVILEGE ENDS WITH THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION USES DOCUMENTS THAT FORMED THEIR DECISION.

THE DISTRICTING COMMISSION SAYS, NOPE WE DO GET ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE BECAUSE WE ARE ANTICIPATING LAWSUITS, OTHER HAS SEEN US BEFORE WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP SOME THINGS CLOSE TO THE VAST JUST CASE AND THAT IS WHERE IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON.

THE JUSTICES AGAIN, THEIR ATTORNEYS AND AS OUR EDITOR SAID, I AGREE WITH THEM, IT COULD GO EITHER WAY BASED OFF OF THIS FACT FRANKLY.

>> ERIC, LOST IN THEIR KERFUFFLE HERE IS THAT THE COMMISSION'S WORK.

ONE OF THE POLITICIANS -- WHAT TO THE POLITICIANS SAY ABOUT THE PLANS THAT ARE EMERGING?

IS IT THERE -- ARE THEY HAVE BECOME UNHAPPY, OR IT OR THIS INTERESTED?

>> I HAVE SPOKEN TO MANY PEOPLE AND SAID HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS PROCESS BUT I DON'T THINK ANYONE IS HAPPY WITH HOW LONG THIS IS TAKING AN HOUR SOME OF THE DECISIONS BEING MADE.

THERE IS A LOT OF PARTS TO THIS ESPECIALLY IN NORTHERN MICHIGAN WHERE GERRYMANDERING WAS NOT AN ISSUE THERE ARE LARGE BLOCKS OF THE DISTRICT WHERE THEY COULD KEEP THINGS GENERALLY THE SAME BUT NOW A LOT OF LAWMAKERS ARE COMPLAINING THAT THEY ARE MOVING THINGS TO MOVE THINGS WHICH WAS NOT THE INTENT OF THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION IT WAS TO MAKE EVERYTHING FAIR, TRANSPARENT, OPEN, AND MOST OF THE ISSUES WERE THE URBAN POPULATED AREAS AND SO EVERYONE IT SEEMS LIKE THAT I SPOKE TO HAS HAVE THEIR COMPLAINTS THEY'RE KEEPING IT TO THEMSELVES BUT THEY JUST WANT TO KNOW, WHERE MY RUNNING?

WHO AM I RUNNING AGAINST?

WHO MY PREPARING FOR?

AND WHO WILL I REPRESENT?

>> THE IMPORTANT THING FOR THE VIEWERS AT HOME IS WILL WE HAVE A MORE COMPETITIVE DISTRICT WHERE WE COULD HAVE A PRIMARY THAT IS NOT PREDETERMINED BY THE GERRYMANDERED DISTRICTS THAT WE HAVE HAD OVER THE LAST OF 3,000 YEARS?

>> WELL, THE PRIMARY AND THE GENERAL THIS HAS BEEN GEARED TOWARDS TRYING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT NOT LETTING THE MAJORITY PARTY IN THE LEGISLATURE WHICH RIGHT NOW ARE REPUBLICANS BASICALLY DETERMINE HOW THEY ARE GOING TO MAINTAIN THAT MAJORITY AND WHETHER OR NOT IT WILL ACHIEVE THAT AIM IS A MURKY PROSPECT AT BEST AS A MATTER OF FACT ONE OF THE LAWSUITS THAT HAS BEEN FILED AGAINST THE -- NOT TO THE WORK OF THE COMMISSION BUT THE AMENDMENT ITSELF IS WHETHER OR NOT THAT WAS ACTUALLY THE INTENTION OF THE AMENDMENT AND THE VOTERS.

CAKE THAT IS A BIT OUT OF LEFT FIELD -- IT >> THAT IS A BIT OUT OF LEFT FIELD ISN'T IT?

IT >> THERE ARE A LOT OF MOVING PARTS.

>> IT WAS SOLD TO GET RID OF GERRYMANDERING.

>> AS END OF THE DAY IF YOU CAN MAKE DEMOCRATS UNHAPPY AND REPUBLICANS UNHAPPY AND IF EVERYONE IS SOMEONE WHEN HAPPY WITH WITH THE DISTRICTS ARE DRAWN I THINK THAT'S CLOSE TO BIPARTISANSHIP AS YOU WILL GET TO TRY TO NOT TO MAKE THEM SO UNHAPPY THAT THE DISTRICTS ARE SO TERRIBLY DRAWN THAT WE END UP JUST AS BAD AS WHEN WE STARTED.

TO BE DETERMINED.

>> FROM ACROSS THE POLITICAL STANDPOINT THE STORY THAT WE WILL WATCH IS WHICH INCUMBENTS ARE SITTING IN THE LEGISLATURE NOW THROWN INTO THE SAME DISTRICT AND THEY HAVE TO FIGHT ONE ANOTHER FOR THIS THING WHICH WILL BE A INTERESTING STORY WHICH WILL UNFOLD AS THE STORY MOVES ON.

WE WILL MOVE IN TO BRING IN OUR GUEST TO BRING OUR GUEST BRENDAN BOUDREAU FROM THE PRO-GUN LOBBY WELCOME OFF THE RECORD YOU ARE HERE BECAUSE A COUPLE WEEKS AGO WE HAD PEOPLE ON WHO WANT TO DO SOME GUN CONTROL AND LET'S GET YOUR TAKE ON WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ON THAT ISSUE IF ANYTHING.

>> I APPRECIATE YOU HAVING ME ON THE SHOW THIS MORNING.

AND FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW, WHAT HAPPENED A FEW WEEKS AGO IN OXFORD WAS AN ABSOLUTE TRAGEDY AND AS A FATHER I GRIEVE WITH THE FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE VICTIMS HERE.

AND THE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE HERE IS THERE IS A QUICK KNEE-JERK REACTION TO WHAT HAPPENED AND IMMEDIATELY IT TURNED TO WE NEED MORE GUN CONTROL.

BEFORE ALL THE FACTS OF THE STORY CAN BE RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC WE HAVE THE OPEN COUNTY PROSECUTOR, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, SEVERAL DEMOCRAT LAWMAKERS IN LANSING TALKING MYRIAD OF GUN-CONTROL PROPOSALS THAT THEY WILL INTRODUCE ALL OF WHICH HAD VERY LITTLE RELEVANCE TO WHAT HAPPENED HERE.

THEY WERE ALREADY NINE ALLIES THAT THE ASSAILANT BROKE IN THE PROCESS OF COMMITTING THE CRIME THAT THEY DID.

AND SO IT'S FRUSTRATING BECAUSE ONCE AGAIN THIS TRAGEDY WAS POLITICIZED FROM DAY ONE.

WE TOOK A STRONG STANCE THAT WE NEEDED TO KNOW ALL THE FACTS HERE BEFORE ANYTHING WAS SAID AND WE WOULD MAKE SURE THAT THE THINGS THAT WE BELIEVE IN AND FIGHT FOR OUR PROTECTED.

>> ON THAT NOTE YOU'RE SAYING STRICTER GUN CONTROL LAWS HAVE -- YOU'RE ARGUING AGAINST STRICTER GUN CONTROL LAWS BUT CONSIDERING THAT WE HAVE NOT REALLY ENACTED AT VERY STRICT LAWS IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS I GUESS HOW DO YOU SEE THIS AS WE DON'T NEED TO PIVOT TO ANY TYPE OF STRICTER GUN CONTROL LAWS CONSIDERING WHAT'S CURRENTLY IN PLACE IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE WORKING?

>> THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION, AND IN RESPONSE TO THAT I WOULD SAY THAT I THINK THAT THERE IS A MISQUOTE, OR MISUNDERSTANDING BY THE OPEN PRIVACY -- OPEN COUNTY PROSECUTOR.

MICHIGAN ACTUALLY DECENT GUN LAW ON THE BOOKS LOOKING AT THIS POLICY THAT WAS ENFORCED IN OXFORD ARE SCHOOL DISTRICTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY IT WAS ILLEGAL FOR THE INDIVIDUAL TO HAVE A GUN.

IT'S IT'S ILLEGAL TO KILL SOMEONE.

YOU KNOW THEY ARE ALL THESE LAWS THAT ARE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS THAT DID NOT DO WHAT THEY ARE PROPOSED TO DO WE HAVE A IT'S A FIVE-YEAR FELONY TO CARRY IT WITHOUT A CONCEALED PISTOL, THAT WAS A A NEW.

THERE'S AN IDEA OF MORAL LAWS AND MORE LAWS TO SOLVE SOCIETY'S ILLS BUT YET THE VERY LAWS THAT ARE ON THE BOOKS DIDN'T DO WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO.

>> FOLLOW-UP JORDAN?

>> IF I COULD JUMP IN WITH A FOLLOW-UP, WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS WHOLE SITUATION FELL APART?

WE ARE STILL LEARNING ABOUT ABOUT A LOT OF FACTS OF OXFORD BUT IN YOUR MIND, IF THE ANSWER IS NOT WITH GUN-CONTROL LAWS, WHERE DO YOU SEE IMPROVEMENTS SHOULD HAVE BEEN MADE OR ACTION SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN THAT AS EVIDENCE HAS COME OUT IN THE PROSECUTOR HAS RELEASES INFORMATION WE HAVE PLENTY OF EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS THE PEOPLE KNEW THAT THERE IS A POTENTIAL FOR PROBLEMS AS EARLY AS THAT MORNING.

YOU LOOK AT THE RESPONSE BY THE PARENTS TO THE NEWS AFTER THE SHOOTING STARTED.

THE PARENTS KNEW THERE WAS A PROBLEM HERE.

THE SCHOOL KNEW THERE WAS A PROBLEM HERE.

CLEARLY SOMEONE HAS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE HERE.

THERE WAS A SHOOTING IN FLORIDA A FEW YEARS AGO WHERE THERE ARE SO MANY INSTANCES WHERE THEY COULD HAVE KEPT THINGS FROM HAPPENING BUT THE ACTION DID NOT FALL AND ULTIMATELY HORRIBLE SITUATION HAPPENED BECAUSE OF IT.

>> PEOPLE WANT ACTION NOT JUST STARTS AND PRAYERS THAT IS NOT JUST THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS WE SAY LAWS ARE THERE THEY ARE NOT BEING FOLLOWED WE WANT SOME SORT OF RESPONSE ESPECIALLY WHEN IT HAPPENS HERE IN MICHIGAN AND OTHER PLACES.

AND SO, WHAT IS THE DOWNSIDE I GUESS OR IS THERE A COMPROMISE THAT CAN BE FOUND LIKE THE SENATOR PROPOSED HIGH-CAPACITY MAGAZINE THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS TANGIBLE WHERE THEY ARE FOLLOWING THE LAWS AND YET IT WILL BE HARDER TO HAVE A LARGER CAPACITY MAGAZINE WHERE THAT HAVE TO RE- ELUDE ONE OR TWO MORE TIMES THEN GIVE SOMEONE A CHANCE TO STOP THEM OR GET AWAY IT SEEMS LIKE IT COULD BE A COMPROMISE THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO LOOK FOR SO THEY CAN SAY THEY DID SOMETHING INSTEAD OF JUST SITTING BY AND MOVING FORWARD AND HELPING PEOPLE FOLLOW THE LAW.

>> PASSING LAWS BECAUSE THEY FEEL GOOD IS NOT GOOD POLICY THAT'S OFTEN HOW BAD LAWS GET PASSED I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS THE KNEE-JERK EMOTIONAL REACTION THAT WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING HERE BUT SOMETIMES THERE ISN'T SOMETHING THAT CAN BE DONE IN A SENSE EXCEPT FOR LOOKING AT THE LAWS THAT ARE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS IN REGARD TO THAT WHAT WAS BROKEN AND SAY THAT GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM HERE.

THE PROBLEM IS THE SYSTEM THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO PROTECT THE STUDENTS FAILED.

THAT'S WHERE THE MAGAZINE, THERE IS CAPACITY IN OTHER STATES.

I KNOW THAT THE SENATOR CLAIMED THAT THEY ARE STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT THEY HAVE SOME KIND OF AN IMPACT ON CRIME, I COULD TELL YOU THAT I HAVE STUDIES ON THE OTHER SIDE THAT THEY HAVE ZERO IMPACT ON CRIME IN FACT OF THE LAWS ARE PRACTICALLY UNENFORCEABLE.

>> THEN WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE BE DONE?

SOME SORT OF ACTION WHETHER IT'S MENTAL HEALTH, HOW SCHOOLS HANDLE SITUATIONS, IS THERE SOME OTHER ACTION THAT CAN BE DONE IF IT IS NOT LIMITING GUN USE AND OWNERSHIP?

>> ABBOTT -- AS A SOCIETY OF YOUR PROBLEMS, WE HAVE SOCIETAL ISSUES WITH LOW VALUE ON HUMAN LIFE.

I THINK THAT PLAYS INTO IT THAT'S THE EFFECT HERE AND WE NEED TO CONSIDER THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW, WE REGARD OUR POLITICIANS AND STATE CAPITOL WITH A HALF HALF A STATE TROOPERS AND THERE WAS ONE RESOURCE OFFICER IN A SCHOOL OF 1800.

AND THEN A WEAPONS FREE SCHOOL ZONE POLICY, THE POLICIES YOU KNOW IF WE BELIEVE THAT CHILDREN ARE -- AND I'M A FATHER I BELIEVE THAT CHILDREN OF THE FUTURE BUT THEN WE SHOULD TAKE MORE PROACTIVE ACTIONS TO PROTECT OUR CHILDREN IN SIMILAR WAYS THAT WE WOULD POLITICIANS.

FOR EXAMPLE.

>> FIRST YOU ARE NOT THE GUN LOBBY, YOU ARE ONE GUN LOBBY ORGANIZATION AND THERE ARE A BUNCH OF THEM WHO CONSIDER YOU AT THE EXTREME END OF THEIR MOVEMENT.

IS THERE SOMETHING -- YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS BUT REPUBLICANS IN THE LEGISLATURE, ARE THEY BEING WEAK KNEED BY NOT LOOSENING RESTRICTIONS ON FIREARMS IN YOUR OPINION?

>> I WOULD SAY YES AND I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, HERE IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN AS I ALREADY SAID IT'S A FIVE-YEAR FELONY TO CARRY WITHOUT A CONCEALED PISTOL LICENSE AND IN A STATE LIKE CALIFORNIA THAT PEOPLE WOULD SEE THAT THEY HAVE PASSED MUCH GUN-CONTROL IT IS A MISDEMEANOR, SO FOR US, IT'S A SECOND AMENDMENT ISSUE BUT ALSO CRIMINAL JUSTICE, SHOULD WE BE THROWING PEOPLE IN JAIL FOR WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY A VICTIMLESS LEGAL TO OPEN CARRY A HANDGUN WITHOUT A PERMIT BUT THEN YOU PUT OUT A GOAT AND NEAR FELON OR IF YOU CARRY WITH AN EXPIRED CPL BY ONE -- IF YOU HAVE AN EXPIRED CPL BY ONE DAY IT IS A FELONY.

AND, THAT IS A FIX-IT TICKET.

IF YOUR REGISTRATION IS LAPSED EVEN GO GET IT FIXED.

WE BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS IT'S A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT AND WE DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE CRIMINALIZED.

>> WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION FOR THE ISSUE OF GUN VIOLENCE, ESPECIALLY GUN VIOLENCE IN SCHOOLS?

>> I TOUCHED ON THIS ALREADY.

ULTIMATELY THE ISSUE IN GENERAL IS VIOLENCE IT'S NOT JUST GUN VIOLENCE AND I THINK THAT NEEDS TO BE RECOGNIZED.

QUITE OFTEN WHEN WERE TALKING ABOUT VIOLENCE IN AMERICA WE WANT TO SEPARATE GUN VIOLENCE FROM THE REST OF THE VIOLENCE AND AN AS IF AMERICA IS THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT HAS VIOLENCE ISSUES BUT YOU LOOK AT OTHER NATIONS THAT HAVE HEAVIER GUN RESTRICTIONS AND THEY DO STILL HAVE GUN VIOLENCE AND THEY HAVE OTHER FORMS OF VIOLENCE AS WELL.

THIS IS NOT JUST SOME AMERICAN PANDEMIC YOU CAN LOOK AT STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT THE LEVELS OF VIOLENCE IN THE U.S. IS NO DIFFERENT THAN OTHER NATIONS ACROSS THE WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO VIOLENCE IN GENERAL.

I BELIEVE ALLOWING LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS TO ARM THEMSELVES THAT DETERS CRIME.

WE HAVE STUDY AFTER STUDY THAT SHOWS THAT.

>> ARE YOU UPSET THAT THE REPUBLICAN LEADER IN THE SENATE HAS GIVEN ASSURANCES THAT THERE COULD BE A HEARING ON THE RED FLAG LEGISLATION?

ARE YOU ON BOARD WITH THAT?

OR DID HE MAKE A MISTAKE?

>> WE DO BELIEVE HE MADE A MISTAKE.

HE DID US A COUPLE YEARS AGO THE SAME DAY AS A SECOND AMENDMENT MARKED IN LANSING.

RED FLAG LAWS ARE CLEAR VIOLATION OF DUE PROCESS IN THE AMERICAN JURISPRUDENCE AND THEY ARE PROBLEMATIC.

IT IS FRUSTRATING FOR THE GUN RIGHTS COMMUNITY FOR HIM TO PROMISE HEARINGS FOR A CLEARLY ANTI- GUN LAW WHERE AS EVERY PRO-GUN BILL THAT ENDS UP IN THE SENATE ENDS UP IN THE DRAWER AND DOESN'T EVEN RECEIVE A HEARING.

>> HOW CAN A PRO GUN SENATE REPUBLICAN LEADER MAKE THIS IN YOUR WORDS, A MISTAKE?

HOW DID HE GET IT WRONG?

>> I CANNOT READ INTO THE MIND OF HIM BUT I THINK SOMETIMES THERE ARE BAD ADVISORS AND ALSO THE SONG AND DANCE OF THE LEGISLATURE WE HAVE TO GIVE A LITTLE TO GET A LITTLE.

ALL BECAUSE YOU ARE REPUBLICAN DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU ARE PRO-GUN THAT IS SOMETHING I HAVE LEARNED TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

LABELS DON'T MEAN THAT MUCH YES IT TYPICALLY REPUBLICANS ARE MORE PRO-GUN THAN DEMOCRATS BUT THEY'RE ALSO PRO-GUN DEMOCRATS AND THEIR GOVERNOR GRANT SIGNED MICHIGAN THE STAND YOUR GROUND LAW AND THAT INTO LAW IF THIS IS MORE PARTISAN NOW BUT IF THERE WAS A TIME WHEN IT WAS NOT A PARTISAN OF ISSUE.

>> BUT LET'S BE CLEAR HERE ALLOWING A HEARING IS NOT THE SAME THAT HE WILL ALLOW THE LEGISLATION TO PASS FOR THE SAKE OF THE DEMOCRACY COULDN'T YOU SIGN OFF ON A HEARING ON ISSUE -- ON THIS ISSUE?

SOME SAY IT'S PART OF DEMOCRACY TO HAVE THIS HEARING ISN'T IT?

>> IF YOU WANT TO SAY HOLD A HEARING THAT IS UP TO THEIR PREROGATIVES AS SENATE LEADERS THEY WILL JUST HEAR FROM GUN RIGHT SUPPORTERS ACROSS THE STATE FOR MOST OF IT.

>> JORDAN.

>> I GUESS I'M HAVING TROUBLE SQUARING A LOGIC HERE.

YOU SAID SOMETHING SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE EARLY OR THEY WERE SIGNS THAT WERE MISSED BUT HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT AND THEN SAY THAT RED FLAG LAWS ARE NOT THE ISSUE BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE THAT IS EXPLICITLY WHAT RED FLAG LAWS NEED TO DO IS FIND THE EARLY WARNING SIGNS AND CATCH THEM AND TAKE GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE EITHER AND NOT MENTALLY ABLE TO POSSESS THESE, THEY HAVE SOME FORM OF ISSUE, HOW DO YOU SWEAR IT?

YOU SWEAR IT?

>> THERE WERE OPPORTUNITIES WITH THE CURRENT LAWS OF THE BOOKS TO HAVE THE SITUATION DEALT WITH.

BUT THE ISSUES WITH RED FLAG LAWS IS THAT ULTIMATELY, WHO WOULD IT APPLY TO?

TO THE SHOOTER OR THE PARENTS?

IT'S UNCLEAR.

THE PROBLEM IS IT ISSUE OF DUE PROCESS RIGHTS.

WE AS AMERICANS VALUE OUR DUE PROCESS RIGHTS IN THESE RED FLAG LAWS AND WE THROW IT AT THE WINDOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR BEING ON THE BROADCAST ALSO OUR THANKS TO RICK AND ERIC AND JORDAN.

NEXT WEEK, MORE OFF THE RECORD, COME BACK.

>> PRODUCTION IS MADE POSSIBLE BY BUSINESS LEADERS ARE MICHIGAN, A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME, AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY, LEARN MORE TO MICHIGAN'S ROAD TO TOP TEN .COM.

FOR MORE OFF THE W K A R .COM.

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