>> WELCOME BACK.

IN THE WAKE OF THE OXFORD SCHOOL KILLINGS THIS WEEK, WE HAVE THE STATE SENATOR FROM THE DISTRICT, SENATOR ROSEMARY BAYER.

SHE WANTS MORE GUN CONTROLS.

LEAD STORY IS THE SHOOTING AND WHAT STATE LAWMAKERS ARE SAYING ABOUT IT.

JIM KIERTZNER, LAUREN GIBBONS AND CRAIG MAUGER SIT IN WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE, OUT -- OFF THE RECORD.

ANNOUNCER: PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING -- AND NOW, THIS EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

TIM: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

WELCOME TO THIS WEEK'S EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" FROM STUDIO C, A TRAGIC WEEK IN OUR STATE WITH SHOOTINGS DOWN IN OAKLAND COUNTY.

WE HAVE ON OUR PANEL JIM, CRAIG AND LAUREN.

TALKING ABOUT THAT RIGHT AFTER WE LOOK AT WHAT IS BEING SAID IN THE MICHIGAN LEGISLATURE AS IT PONDERS GUN CONTROL LEGISLATION, WHICH IS NOTHING NEW AROUND HERE.

>> AND THEN YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT WE NEED TO PASS ANOTHER LAW?

COME ON!

>> SO REPRESENTATIVE GREEN IS WRONG, MORE LEGISLATION IS NEEDED.

>> MORE LEGISLATION IS DECIDEDLY NEEDED.

TIM: WE'VE SEEN THIS MOVIE BEFORE.

STUDENTS ARE KILLED BY A SHOOTER IN A SCHOOL, THIS TIME IN OXFORD, MICHIGAN, THEN THE GUN CONTROL LOBBY COMES OUT RENEWING CALLS FOR LAWMAKERS TO DO SOMETHING WITH MORE LEGISLATION, AND THE VARIOUS GUN OWNER GROUPS COUNTER ALL OF THAT BY SAYING THAT'S SIMPLY NOT NEEDED.

NOTING THAT THE SUSPECT IN THE LATEST RAMPAGE BROKE NINE LAWS THAT WERE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS.

>> HOW MANY LAWS HAVE ALREADY BEEN BROKEN?

HOW MANY LAWS DID THAT KID BREAK?

THERE'S ALREADY A SIGN OUT THERE AT THE DOOR THAT SAYS IT IS ILLEGAL TO BRING A GUN ON THE PREMISES.

WHAT CAN WE HAVE DONE MORE LEGALLY?

CREATE ANOTHER LAW FOR HIM TO BREAK?

>> THIS GUN CONTROL DEMOCRATIC SENATOR IS NOT BACKING OFF, SUGGESTING MORE LAWS ARE NEEDED LIKE THIS.

>> LIMITS ON MAGAZINE CAPACITY.

SO IF SOMEONE DOES MANAGE TO GET THEIR HANDS ON AN AUTOMATIC RIFLE OR PISTOL, THEY CAN ONLY SHOOT SO MANY BULLETS BEFORE THEY HAVE TO STOP AND RELOAD.

THE REAL GOAL FOR US, OF COURSE, IS TO GET IN FRONT OF THESE THINGS.

VIOLENCE INTERVENTION, VIOLENCE INTERRUPTION, THESE ARE NOT THINGS THAT TAKE GUNS AWAY.

NOBODY IS TRYING TO VIOLATE YOUR 2nd AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

TIM: THE SENATE REPUBLICAN LEADER SAYS, QUOTE, TO GET OBSESSED WITH ELIMINATING ALL RISKS WE WILL DEVELOP AND EVOLVE INTO A COUNTRY WE WON'T RECOGNIZE AND HAVE NO FREEDOMS.

AS FOR GOVERNOR GRETCHEN WHITMER OFFERING PROPOSALS AT THIS POINT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON THE TRAGEDY AT HAND.

SOME 50 GUN CONTROL MEASURES ARE PENDING IN THE LEGISLATIVE HOPPER BUT SUPPORTERS DON'T HAVE THE VOTES TO MOVE THEM.

SOMEWHERE HOPING THAT THE EVENT AT OXFORD WILL CHANGE ALL THAT.

AND SO, LAUREN, WILL IT CHANGE ALL THAT?

>> NO, AS YOUR PIECE STATED PRETTY CLEARLY, TIM, THE LEGISLATION THAT HOUSE AND SENATE DEMOCRATS HAS PREVIOUSLY INTRODUCED HAS BEEN IN THE HOPPER, HAS BEEN INTRODUCED IN THIS SESSION, IN PREVIOUS SESSIONS.

THERE ARE, AS I'M SURE SENATOR BAYER WILL TELL US LATER, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME PUSHES TO POTENTIALLY INTRODUCE MORE LEGISLATION, BUT WE HAVE SEEN THAT THE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER, THE HOUSE SPEAKER, BOTH REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED CHAMBERS HAS NOT HAD THE APPETITE TO APPROVE MEASURES THAT WOULD RESTRICT -- THAT WOULD RESTRICT ACCESS TO GUNS IN ANY MEANINGFUL WAY OR AT LEAST WHAT PEOPLE ARE HOPING TO SEE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ISSUE, AND YOU KNOW, SENATE LEADER SHIRKY SAID IN ADDITION TO THE QUOTE, HE IS ALSO LOOKING TO FOCUS MORE ON THE FAMILIES AT THIS POINT, AND SAID THAT THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF THE SHOOTING, THERE ARE OTHER LAWMAKERS WHO ARE HOPING TO VISIT WHAT KIND OF FUNDS COULD BE LEVERAGED TO POTENTIALLY GET MENTAL HEALTH RESOURCES TO THE COMMUNITY, BUT UNLIKELY IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION.

TIM: MR. MAUGER, YOUR TAKE ON ALL THIS?

>> I AGREE WITH LAUREN.

IT'S VERY UNLIKELY THE LEGISLATURE IS GOING TO DO ANYTHING ON THE ISSUE SPECIFICALLY OF GUN CONTROL AND RESTRICTION.

MAYBE THEY DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS WEEK TO PROVIDE MORE FUNDING TO SCHOOLS, FOR MENTAL HEALTH, SCHOOL COUNSELORS ARE ON SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

KEEP IN MIND THE CONTEXT OF ALL OF THIS.

LAST YEAR IN THE SPRING, WE HAD PROTESTERS LITERALLY BRING FIREARMS INTO THE GALLERY OF THE STATE SENATE.

THESE SAME INDIVIDUALS WERE INVOLVED IN A PLOT TO KIDNAP AND POTENTIALLY MURDER THE GOVERNOR, AND THE LEGISLATURE DID NOTHING ABOUT FIREARMS, AND ACTUALLY THEY WERE FRUSTRATED WHEN THE CAPITOL COMMISSION TRIED TO TAKE A SMALL STEP ON FIREARMS IN THE CAPITOL.

SEEMS UNLIKELY THIS PARTICULAR LEGISLATURE IS GOING TO DO ANYTHING.

TIM: JIM?

>> I TOTALLY AGREE, EVEN THOUGH WE'VE HAD ONE OF A WEEK DOWN HERE IN METRO DETROIT, AND I'M GOING TO BE A LITTLE BIT PREOCCUPIED.

I'M GOING TO APOLOGIZE UP-FRONT, HAVING COVERED THIS.

THEY MIGHT ALSO INVOKE THE NAMES OF THE FOUR STUDENTS WHO WERE KILLED IN THIS.

I WANT TO STATE THEM ON THE RECORD HERE BECAUSE YOU HAVE SO MUCH PAIN ASSOCIATED WITH ALL OF THIS.

THE FOUR STUDENTS WHO WERE KILLED ARE TATE MAYER, HAHNA ST. JULIANA, MADISON BALDWIN, JUSTIN SCHILLING, AND YOU HAVE SEVERAL OTHERS INJURED AS WELL AS A TEACHER SHOT IN THE SHOULDER.

POLITICS IS ABOUT THE SHOW.

AND THE SHORT ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, I DON'T SEE MOVEMENT EITHER BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE VOTES.

TIM: WELL, THE QUESTION THAT SOME PEOPLE IN YOUR AREA ARE ASKING THEMSELVES, PARTICULARLY THOSE WHO FAVOR MORE GUN CONTROLS TO TRY TO AMELIORATE THIS PROBLEM WE'VE HAD THAT PLAGUED THE COUNTRY FOR DECADES IS HOW COME THERE AREN'T THE VOTES?

GOODNESS GRACIOUS!

WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET THE LEGISLATURE TO MOVE, THEY MIGHT ASK ME?

>> THEY MIGHT ASK ME, AND IT COMES DOWN TO MICHIGAN IS A STATE WHERE YOU HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LOVE THEIR GUNS.

WE'VE SEEN THAT MANY TIMES OVER.

TIM, YOU AND I HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS, WE WENT THROUGH THE BUELL SCHOOL SHOOTING IN 2001, WHEN A FIRST-GRADER BROUGHT A GUN TO SCHOOL AND SHOT AND KILLED A FELLOW FIRST-GRADER, KAYLA ROWLAND.

NOT MUCH WAS PASSED IN THE LEGISLATURE IN TERMS OF STATE LAWS AFTER THAT MAJOR EVENT.

HERE WE GO AGAIN, AND THEY DON'T HAVE THE VOTES.

TIM: WHAT'S THE ATTITUDE IN THE ADMINISTRATION IN THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE ON THIS ISSUE, CRAIG?

>> I THINK WHAT WE HEARD FROM THE GOVERNOR, EARLIER THIS WEEK, IS SHE WAS NOT READY TO ENGAGE IN THE POLITICAL DEBATE OVER THIS.

AS JIM NOTED, SHE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THE TRAGEDY AND HOW PEOPLE FOCUS ON THIS RIGHT NOW, AND RIGHTFULLY SO, SO WE HAVEN'T HEARD A LOT OUT OF HER ADMINISTRATION ABOUT WHAT SHE THINKS REFORMS ARE THAT SHOULD COME DOWN THE ROAD.

I DID TALK TO THE STATE SUPERINTENDENT MICHAEL RICE YESTERDAY, AND HIS FEELING WAS BASICALLY, THERE'S TOO MANY GUNS OUT THERE, BUT ALSO THAT THESE DECISIONS NEED TO BE MADE ON A SCHOOL BY SCHOOL BASIS, THAT DIFFERENT THINGS WILL WORK IN DIFFERENT SCHOOL DISTRICTS, AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS A REALLY INTERESTING ANSWER FROM THE STATE SUPERINTENDENT WHO ADVISES LAWMAKERS AND THE GOVERNOR ON STATEWIDE POLICY, AND HE'S BASICALLY SAYING IN THAT, THESE SHOULD BE LOCAL DECISIONS.

THAT'S PRETTY FASCINATING.

TIM: BASICALLY THE GOVERNOR, IF SHE GOT THIS LEGISLATION ON HER DESK, WOULD SIGN IT IN A NEW YORK MINUTE, BUT THE ATTITUDE IN THE LEGISLATURE RIGHT NOW, IN SPITE OF THESE DEATHS AND THERE COULD BE MORE AS A RESULT OF THE SHOOTING THIS WEEK IS JUST NOT THERE, LAUREN.

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S TRUE.

AND IT WAS A HORRIFIC, TRAGIC EVENT, AND WE'VE SEEN SIMILAR CONVERSATIONS PLAY OUT IN OTHER STATES, AND OTHER MUNICIPALITIES THAT HAD HAD SIMILAR INSTANCES HAPPEN, OR AT LEAST IN TERMS OF STATES WHERE THIS HAS HAPPENED WHERE THERE'S -- IT'S BECOME SUCH A POLITICAL ISSUE AND TYPICALLY DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN MORE LIKELY TO SUPPORT LIMITING CERTAIN ACCESS TO GUNS OR VARIOUS GUN CONTROL MEASURES, LIKE EXTREME RISK PROTECTION ORDER WAS ANOTHER ISSUE THAT'S COME UP AROUND THE COUNTRY.

SO I THINK IT'S BECOME SUCH A POLITICAL ISSUE, WHERE, YOU KNOW, DEMOCRATS OR PROGRESSIVES ARE MORE LIKELY TO SUPPORT ADDRESSING GUNS SPECIFICALLY WHEREAS REPUBLICANS, AS WE'VE SEEN PLAY OUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, HAVE NOT BEEN WILLING TO TAKE UP SUCH LEGISLATION.

TIM: THE SEGUE OUT OF THAT, REPRESENTATIVE GREEN, WHEN I SPOKE TO HIM YESTERDAY SAID THE REAL PROBLEM HERE IS MENTAL HEALTH.

OBVIOUSLY, HE BELIEVES THIS YOUNG MAN HAD MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS, WHICH TRIGGERED THE SITUATION, AND I THINK ON THAT FRONT, CRAIG, AS YOU SUGGESTED, THEY ARE SHIPPING MENTAL HEALTH DOLLARS INTO THE SCHOOLS TO HELP PARTICULARLY IN THE WAKE OF THE PANDEMIC, AND I THINK THERE WILL BE BIPARTISAN COOPERATION ON THAT FRONT.

IS THAT AN ACCURATE STATEMENT?

>> YEAH, I FULLY EXPECT THEM TO BE ABLE TO PULL OFF SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

THE ISSUE WITH THE MENTAL HEALTH FUNDING, THOUGH, SPEAKS TO BROADER TOPICS IN OUR STATE RIGHT NOW IS HOW DO YOU GET THE WORKERS?

THE PEOPLE WHO DO COUNSELING?

THE PEOPLE WHO DO SOCIAL WORK?

WE HAVE A SHORTAGE OF THESE PEOPLE IN THE STATE.

HOW DO YOU CREATE A PIPELINE THAT WILL BE ABLE TO EXPAND WHAT WE'RE OFFERING IN THE SCHOOLS.

YOU CAN'T ALL OF A SUDDEN BE LIKE WE'RE GOING TO FUND MENTAL HEALTH IN SCHOOLS BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A PIPELINE OF PEOPLE TO DO THE WORK.

THIS IS SOMETHING THE STATE SUPERINTENDENT SAID EARLIER THIS WEEK.

HE SAID BASICALLY WE STARTED FUNDING SCHOOL MENTAL HEALTH A FEW YEARS AGO AND JUST DON'T HAVE THE PEOPLE TO PULL THIS OFF.

TIM: AND IT'S EXACERBATED BY THE PANDEMIC BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO GO INTO THE PROFESSION.

YOU HAVE A PERFECT STORM WHICH MITIGATES AGAINST GETTING THE HEALTH SERVICES INTO THE KIDS TO GET OUT OF THE MILIEU.

THIS IS MAJOR PROGRESS, IS IT NOT?

>> YEAH, CERTAINLY.

WE SAW THE SENATE MOVE LEGISLATION TO USE SOME OF THAT WATER INFRASTRUCTURE FUNDING THAT HAS BEEN MADE AVAILABLE TO THE STATE BY THE FEDERAL FUNDS, AND WE'VE SEEN, I THINK, A LOT OF OBSERVERS WERE WONDERING WHY IT TOOK SO LONG.

SOME OF THE LAWMAKERS HAVE SAID, WELL, IT TOOK A LONG TIME TO KIND OF FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHERE THE PIECES FALL AND HOW TO START ALLOCATING THESE FUNDS BUT SOUNDS AS THOUGH AT LEAST SOME OF THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF FUNDING ARE GOING TO START MOVING AND GETTING DOWN TO THE LOCAL LEVEL WHERE THESE DOLLARS CAN START HAVING A PRETTY BIG IMPACT ON MICHIGAN RESIDENTS.

TIM: I SPOKE TO THE NEW BUDGET DIRECTOR THIS WEEK, HE IS QUITE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT GETTING A LOT OF THE STUFF DONE BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR, NOT NECESSARILY CHECKS IN THE MAIL TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTS BUT TEEING THEM UP AS WE MOVE INTO THE FIRST OF THE YEAR, AND JIM YOU HAVE BEEN INUNDATED WITH THE STORY, BUT THERE WAS MONEY FOR WATER SYSTEMS THAT HAVE FLOODED HALF OF ACCOUNTING, RIGHT?

>> WE HAD A HORRIBLE SUMMER STARTED IN JUNE WITH THE HEAVY RAINS AND THE FAILING SYSTEMS WITH THE PUMPS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO CLEAR THE WASTEWATER.

WE HAD LITERALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF HOMES AND BUSINESSES WITH SEVEN FEET OF WATER AT THE HIGHEST POINT, JUST DEVASTATING FOR HOME OWNERS AND BUSINESSES WITH OFTEN CENTURY OLD SYSTEM RUNNING THROUGH THE CITY OF DETROIT.

MUCH NEEDED MONEY, MUCH NEEDED IMPROVEMENTS AND IT'S GOING TO CERTAINLY TAKE A LOT OF YEARS TO BRING THAT INFRASTRUCTURE UP TO STATE OF THE ART AND PREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

ABSOLUTELY, MUCH NEEDED MONEY.

TIM: AND THE BUDGET DIRECTOR UNDERSCORED, WE DON'T WANT TO RUSH INTO THIS THING, DON'T WANT TO WASTE THE DOLLARS, GET THIS RIGHT BECAUSE THIS IS A ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A TREMENDOUS CHANGE IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE QUALITY OF LIFE IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.

PURSUE THE OAKLAND COUNTY PROBLEM WITH THE STATE SENATOR WHO HAD ONE HECK OF A BUSY WEEK HERSELF.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TO JOIN US ON THE PROGRAM.

YOU HEARD OUR FIRST PART, OUR ANALYSIS, WHICH IS SOMETIMES INCORRECT, BUT MOSTLY WE'RE ALWAYS RIGHT.

[LAUGHTER] >> BUT THE QUESTION IS: AT THIS READ THIS MORNING, AS WE SIT HERE POST WHAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK IN YOUR DISTRICT, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE VOTES TO DO MORE GUN CONTROL.

FAIR STATEMENT, MADAM?

>> AT THIS MOMENT, WE'RE NOT IN SESSION.

YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO SAY I AM FOREVER OPTIMISTIC IN THAT THE PEOPLE ON THE SENATE FLOOR, THE PEOPLE IN THE HOUSE, ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE ARE REAL HUMAN BEINGS WHO CARE ABOUT PEOPLE AND OUR KIDS AND CARE ABOUT OUR COMMUNITIES AS WE HELP THEM UNDERSTAND THE THINGS WE'RE TRYING TO DO WITH THIS LEGISLATION, MOST OF IT, ALL OF IT, IS NOT TAKE AWAY THE GUNS BUT TO PROTECT ESPECIALLY OUR KIDS, RIGHT?

TO MAKE IT SO THEY ARE NOT AFRAID TO GO TO SCHOOL.

RIGHT NOW ALL OVER THE PLACE, WE'RE HAVING SCHOOLS CLOSE OR RUNNING A VERY, VERY LOW ATTENDANCE BECAUSE PARENTS AND KIDS ARE AFRAID TO SEND THEIR KIDS TO SCHOOL, AND HONESTLY, WE HAVE TO TAKE ACTION ON, THIS AND I THINK I WAS WATCHING, I SAW THE CLIP WITH REPRESENTATIVE GREEN, AND I UNDERSTAND THE POSITION, BUT WE'RE NOT DOING A GOOD JOB OR THESE THINGS WOULD NOT CONTINUE TO HAPPEN.

WE WOULDN'T HAVE SUCH A HIGH RATE OF GUN VIOLENCE.

OF DEATH BY GUN VIOLENCE.

WE'RE NOT DOING ENOUGH, WE'RE NOT DOING IT CORRECTLY.

MAYBE WE HAVE WRONG LEGISLATION BUT I KNOW WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT LEGISLATION.

TIM: SENATOR, IF YOU WERE IN SESSION TODAY, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THE VOTES?

>> NO, WE STILL HAVE SOME WORK TO DO ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE AND HELPING THEM UNDERSTAND.

YOU KNOW, YOU GUYS CAN HELP WITH THAT, AND I LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH YOU ON THAT.

IF YOU LOOKED AT POLLS, WHAT PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY, PEOPLE IN MICHIGAN WANT, BY FAR, THE MAJORITY WANT SOME OF THESE SAFETY REGULATIONS IN PLACE, RIGHT?

THINGS LIKE UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS AND SAFE STORAGE REQUIREMENTS, AND EVEN THIS NEW ONE, MAGAZINE CAPACITY LIMITATIONS, THERE'S NO -- PEOPLE WANT THIS.

SO THIS IS -- I HEARD YOU TALKING ABOUT DO YOU HAVE THE VOTES?

OUR JOB, MY JOB IS TO REPRESENT MY PEOPLE IN THE DISTRICT.

SO THEIR JOB IS TO REPRESENT THEIR PEOPLE IN THE DISTRICT.

THEY WANT THEIR LEGISLATION TO PASS, AND THEY WORK COLLECTIVELY AS A STATE, AS A POPULATION, AS A COMMUNITY, WE NEED TO HELP THEM UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK.

YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE VOTE IN OUR ELECTIONS IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT OR STATE GOVERNMENT ELECTIONS, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T VOTE USUALLY FOR ONE SPECIFIC ISSUE, YOU MAY NOT EVEN REALIZE THAT YOU'RE VOTING FOR SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T THINK THAT THESE KIND OF RULES ARE IMPORTANT.

YOU MAY NOT THINK OF THAT DURING THE TIME OF VOTE.

IT SHOULDN'T BE A POLITICAL ISSUE, SHOULDN'T BE A PARTISAN ISSUE, THIS IS ABOUT SAFETY.

SO YOU KNOW, I THINK MOST PEOPLE WANT THIS TO HAPPEN, THEY DON'T REALIZE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT MATTERS WHEN THEY VOTE.

TIM: MS. GIBBONS?

>> SENATOR, AS YOU'VE SPOKEN WITH YOUR CONSTITUENTS AND THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DEEPLY IMPACTED BY THIS TRAGEDY, A LOT OF LAWMAKERS AND PUBLIC OFFICIALS HAVE SAID, WELL, LET'S FOCUS ON, LET'S FOCUS ON THE PEOPLE AFFECTED RIGHT NOW.

ARE THE PEOPLE AFFECTED RIGHT NOW INTERESTED IN IMMEDIATE POLICY CHANGE BASED ON YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM?

>> SO I GOT TO TELL YOU, I LIVED IN OXFORD FOR A LONG TIME.

I LIVED ON RAY ROAD, DOWN THE STREET FROM THE HIGH SCHOOL.

AND I'M NOT TALKING TO THE POPULATION IN OXFORD ABOUT LEGISLATION.

I THINK THE GOVERNOR IS DEAD-ON DIRECT.

OUR NUMBER ONE JOB IN OXFORD RIGHT NOW IS TO TAKE CARE OF THOSE PEOPLE, TO HELP THEM GET THROUGH THIS.

I KNOW HOW HORRIBLE I FEEL.

MY FIRST THOUGHT IS WHAT IF THAT WAS MY DAUGHTER?

AND IF IT WASN'T HER THAT GOT SHOT, WHAT IF I HAD TO SEND HER BACK THERE?

HOW DO WE HELP EVERYBODY THROUGH THIS?

AND I HEARD YOU TALKING ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT FOR THE COMMUNITY.

WE SAT THERE THE NEXT DAY WITH PEN AND PAPER FIGURING OUT, OKAY, ONE COUNSELOR FOR EVERY 100 PEOPLE, HOW DO WE COUNT THE PEOPLE?

SO THE 1800 KIDS IN THE HIGH SCHOOL IS A TINY BEGINNING OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE TRAUMATIZED BY THIS.

THE PEOPLE IN THE OTHER SCHOOLS.

EVERY KID.

I HAD A FRIEND WHOSE CHILD IS IN THE OXFORD MIDDLE SCHOOL TEXTED THEM THAT DAY AND SAID, MOMMY, I'M SCARED.

CAN YOU COME GET ME?

EVERYBODY WENT INTO LOCKDOWN.

EVERY SCHOOL, EVERY PARENT, EVERYBODY WHO WORKS IN THOSE BUILDINGS AND EVERYBODY IN OXFORD AND FIVE OF THEM -- IF YOU LOOK AT THE SCHOOLS CLOSED RIGHT NOW BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OR HAVE VERY LOW ATTENDANCE BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE AFRAID, THIS IS A VERY BROAD IMPACT, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT HOW DO WE FIND ENOUGH COUNSELORS?

IT'S A PRETTY DRAMATIC THING.

IT IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE WORKING ON AND TRYING TO FIND WAYS TO BRING IN HELP FROM OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW FOR THE EMERGENCY PHASE BUT HAVE TO SOLVE IT FOR THE LONG-TERM AS WELL.

TIM: MR. MAUGER?

>> SENATOR, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

THIS IS QUITE A MOMENT IN MICHIGAN HISTORY RIGHT NOW.

THERE ARE TWO SUBJECTS COMING TO A HEAD THAT YOU'RE CAUCUS CARES A LOT ABOUT.

THIS ISSUE OF HOW DO WE HANDLE GUNS IN OUR COMMUNITY AND ABORTION RIGHTS IN THE U.S. SUPREME COURT?

DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT GUN RESTRICTIONS AND ABORTION RIGHTS SHOULD BE LAUNCHING INITIATIVE PETITIONS RIGHT NOW IF THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS?

BECAUSE IT DOES NOT SEEM LIKE THE LEGISLATURE IS GOING TO TAKE THE ACTIONS THAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR.

>> YOU KNOW, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT, TO BE HONEST.

IF NOTHING ELSE, IT RAISES THE VISIBILITY.

WE SELECT OUR LEGISLATORS, THE BEAUTY OF THE WAY THINGS WORK HERE.

WE CHOOSE, AND, YOU KNOW, AFTER THIS NEXT ELECTION, WE'LL BE CLOSER TO CHOOSING THE PEOPLE WE WANT AS WE FIX GERRYMANDERING WITH REDISTRICTING, BUT WE CHOOSE, SO THE CHALLENGE IS THE PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY REALIZE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE VOTING FOR, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT STATE-LEVEL ROLES.

WHEN I FIRST WAS CAMPAIGNING, SOME OF YOU KNOW, THIS IS MY FIRST TIME IN ELECTED OFFICE.

I WAS KIND OF SURPRISED THE FIRST TIME I HEARD SOMEONE SAY, THERE'S A SENATE IN MICHIGAN?

AND I HEARD IT A LOT OF TIMES.

PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ME, THEY DON'T KNOW THERE'S A SENATE IN MICHIGAN.

WE DEFINITELY NEED TO DO SOME EDUCATING AND EDUCATING ON ISSUES AND UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PEOPLE YOU VOTE FOR ARE THE PEOPLE YOU WANT TO REPRESENT YOUR OWN FEELINGS, VALUES, OPINIONS, WHATEVER IT IS, AND THOSE INITIATIVE PETITIONS, WE WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT STUFF GO THROUGH, WE CERTAINLY ARE FIXING OUR VOTING DISTRICTS BECAUSE OF IT, RIGHT?

IT WAS A TREMENDOUS EFFORT, AND IT GETS THE WORD OUT, WHICH IS A HUGE PART OF THE CHALLENGE FOR US.

TIM: JIM?

>> SENATOR, SINCE YOU LIVE IN THE OXFORD AREA AND YOU REPRESENT THAT, ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT BECAME A SURPRISE TO ME THAT'S SORT OF A HOT TOPIC, ALONG THE SAME LINES AS NEW GUN LEGISLATION, THAT IS METAL DETECTORS IN HIGH SCHOOLS.

OBVIOUSLY, OXFORD HIGH SCHOOL DOES NOT HAVE METAL DETECTORS.

IT'S BECOME KIND OF A POLITICAL ISSUE.

DO YOU THINK THERE SHOULD BE METAL DETECTORS IN HIGH SCHOOLS IN THE WAKE OF THIS TRAGEDY?

>> NO, I THINK WE NEED LESS GUNS IN HIGH SCHOOLS.

NOT METAL DETECTORS.

NOT TURN THEM INTO PRISONS AND MILITARY ZONES AND NONE OF THOSE THINGS MAKE SENSE.

YOU WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL, SCHOOL SHOULD BE A PLACE THAT YOU ARE SAFE, A PLACE THAT IS FUN, THAT IS HAPPY, THAT YOU SEE YOUR FRIENDS, YOU ARE ON SPORTS TEAMS, YOU LEARN AND YOU GROW.

IT'S NOT A PLACE WHERE YOU ARE FEARFUL AND WALK THROUGH METAL DETECTORS.

I'VE BEEN IN SCHOOLS WHERE THEY HAVE THOSE KIND OF CIRCUMSTANCES, AND IT DOES NOT FEEL LIKE THE KIND OF PLACE WHERE IT WOULD BE EASY TO LEARN.

YOU CERTAINLY WOULDN'T BE CREATIVE THERE, JUST TO FEEL COMFORTABLE ENOUGH TO LEARN WOULD BE HARD.

WE DON'T WANT TO BRING THAT TO OUR SCHOOLS, WE DON'T WANT TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

TIM: JIM, YOU GOT A FOLLOW-UP?

>> YEAH, SOME OF THE LEGISLATION THAT COULD BE INTRODUCED MAY NOT HAVE THE VOTES.

ONE OF THE ONES THAT IS DISCUSSED FIRST WITH PEOPLE I'VE TALKED TO THIS WEEK IS WHAT THEY CALL CAP LEGISLATION, CHILD ACCESS PROTECTION.

ESSENTIALLY MEANING KEEP GUNS LOCKED UP AND OUT OF THE HANDS OF KIDS IN HOMES BUT THERE ARE LAWS ON THE BOOKS TO PREVENT THAT, THE GUN LOBBY WOULD SAY, AND ANY PARENT WHO IS IRRESPONSIBLE WITH A GUN AND A CHILD GETS IT, THE CHILD SHOOTS HIMSELF OR HERSELF OR ANOTHER CHILD AND SO ON, THE PARENT CAN BE CHARGED WITH INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER.

SO ISN'T THAT EVEN A NON-STARTER POLITICALLY?

>> WELL, NO, SO AS YOU CAN TELL, THOSE LAWS THAT WE HAVE ARE NOT EFFECTIVE, RIGHT?

IT CLEARLY IS NOT WORKING.

I THINK PART OF IT IS, THOSE OF US WHO WORK IN LANSING, WE LIVE IN THE LANSING BUBBLE, RIGHT?

WE LIVE IN A BUBBLE WHERE WE KNOW THOSE LAWS AND KNOW THE PARTS THAT WORK AND THE PARTS THAT MAYBE DON'T WORK.

THE PEOPLE DON'T.

THE PEOPLE DON'T READ OUR LAWS.

THEY DON'T KNOW THERE'S A SENATE IN MICHIGAN.

PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE, SO EVEN SOMETHING -- BY THE WAY, I INTRODUCED THAT SAFE STARTER LAW, THE CHILD ACCESS PROTECTION LAW LAST SUMMER, AND WE HAVE ANOTHER PIECE THAT'S COMING OUT SOON RELATED TO THAT, BUT IF YOU WERE INFORMED -- SO PART OF THIS IS ACCIDENTS, RIGHT?

THIS INCIDENT THAT JUST HAPPENED IN OXFORD, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

WE DON'T KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

WE DON'T KNOW ANY OF THOSE THINGS YET, RIGHT?

OFTENTIMES, THE SITUATION INVOLVES ACCIDENTS, AND OFTENTIMES IT'S PEOPLE THAT REALLY DON'T THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY SHOULD AND SHOULDN'T DO AND THE SAFE HANDLING OF THEIR OWN FIREARMS.

IF YOU WERE TO HAVE TO SIGN A PIECE OF PAPER WHEN YOU PURCHASE A GUN THAT SAYS I WILL SECURELY STORE MY FIREARM AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT, IF YOU HAD TO DO THAT WHEN YOU BOUGHT ANY KIND OF FIREARM, THAT MIGHT REMIND THAT YOU YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO THAT.

IF YOU HAD, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE IN THE BILL, THE SELLER HAD TO -- INCLUDING THE NEW BILL FROM REPRESENTATIVE LORI STONE, INCLUDE A LOCKING DEVICE WHEN YOU PURCHASE A FIREARM.

WOULD THAT NOT HELP YOU REMEMBER HOW IMPORTANT IT IS?

I DON'T KNOW IT'S GOING TO SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM WE HAD THIS WEEK, BUT THINGS LIKE THAT, THE AWARENESS OF IT, KNOWING THIS IS REALLY TRULY A REALLY SERIOUS CRIME, IF YOU LET SOMEONE ELSE USE YOUR WEAPON AND SOMETHING HAPPENS, THAT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

THERE'S PROVEN EVIDENCE IN OTHER STATES THAT THIS REDUCES ACCIDENTS, REDUCES INTENTIONAL VIOLENCE BY SOMEONE WHO'S USING YOUR WEAPON AND REDUCES SUICIDE DRAMATICALLY.

SPECIFICALLY LOTS OF DATA TO PROVE THIS WORKS.

OF ALL THE PACKAGES, ALL THE BILLS WE INTRODUCED AND CONTINUE TO INTRODUCE AND IMPROVE ON, THIS MIGHT BE ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT OR ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ONES.

TIM: SENATOR, WITH YOUR PERMISSION, WE WILL DO AN OVERTIME SEGMENT BECAUSE WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME IN THE REGULAR BROADCAST.

ONE QUICK QUESTION HERE: IF YOU COULD WAVE THE MAGIC WAND WHAT IS THE ONE PIECE OF LEGISLATION YOU WOULD ENACT TODAY, IF YOU COULD?

>> THAT'S A TOUGH CHOICE FOR ME RIGHT NOW.

THE ONE WE TALKED ABOUT IS ONE OF THE MOST CRITICAL.

WE HAVE A NEW PIECE WE WERE SCHEDULED TO INTRODUCE NEXT WEEK AND PROBABLY STILL WILL, I'M NOT SURE, IT RESTRICTS THE SIZE OF A MAGAZINE CAPACITY, SO YOU WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO PURCHASE OR OWN -- SELL, I SHOULD SAY, OR OWN ANY MAGAZINE WITH MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, THAT COULD HAVE ACTUALLY SAVED A COUPLE KIDS' LIVES.

TIM: SENATOR, GOOD, WE'LL GO TO OVERTIME IN JUST A SECOND.

GO TO WKAR.ORG WITH MORE ON THE SERIOUS ISSUE WITH THE GOOD SENATOR AND OUR GREAT PANEL.

SEE YOU AFTER THESE CLOSE CREDITS.

ANNOUNCER: PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING -- FOR MORE "OFF THE RECORD" VISIT WKAR.ORG.

MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.