♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> AS ISRAEL TIGHTENS ITS GRIP ON GAZA, THE LEADER OF THE LEFTIST LABOR PARTY TELLS ME WHY SHE'S LEAVING POLITICS.

THEN, WHO SHOULD REPRESENT THE PALESTINIANS?

I ASK A FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER FOR THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

PLUS, THE UNITED STATES OF AUTOCRACY?

THE EDITOR IN CHIEF OF "THE ATLANTIC" TALKS TO WALTER ABOUT THE DANGERS OF TRUMP 2.0.

AND FINALLY, A COLLABORATION FOR THE AGES.

HOLLYWOOD'S MOST CELEBRATED COMPOSER, JOHN WILLIAMS, AND VIRTUOSO VIOLINIST ANNE-SOPHIE MUTTER JOINING WHY THEY'RE JOINING FORCES.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THERE'S NOWHERE TO TURN IN GAZA, PALESTINIANS SAY, AS ISRAEL'S STR STRANGLEHOLD GETS TIGHTER.

BUT DESPITE INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE, ISRAEL REMAINS INTENT ON ERADICATING HAMAS, WHATEVER IT TAKES.

ISRAEL'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER SAYS THAT COULD BE MEASURED IN WEEKS, EVEN MONTHS.

BUT THE PRIME MINISTER OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY SAYS IT'S NOT EVEN POSSIBLE TO WIPE OUT THE GROUP, CALLING HAMAS, QUOTE, AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE PALESTINIAN POLITICAL MOSAIC.

TONIGHT, WE ATTEMPT TO LOOK BEYOND THE WAR, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF FUTURE ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP.

FOR THAT, LET'S REMEMBER SOME CRUCIAL PRESS AGAINST FROM THE PAST.

DURING THE OSLO NEGOTIATIONS IN THE '90s, THE CHIEF PALESTINIAN DELEGATE TOLD THE CHIEF ISRAELI DELEGATE THE FOLLOWING.

I BELIEVE WE'VE ARRIVED AT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.

WE HAVE LEARNED THAT OUR REJECTION OF YOU WILL NOT BRING US FREEDOM.

YOU CONCEDE THAT YOUR CONTROL OF US WILL NOT BRING YOU SECURITY.

WE MUST LIVE SIDE-BY-SIDE IN PEACE, EQUALITY, AND COOPERATION.

SO, LET'S START WITH ISRAEL'S LABOR PARTY, ONCE THE DOMINANT POLITICAL FORCE ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE FOUNDER DAVID BEN-GURION.

BUT THE PEACE CAMP HAS LOST SO MUCH KRIDABILITY OVER THE YEARS THAT IT IS BARELY CLINGING ON IN PARLIAMENT, AND NOW, LEADER MERAV MICHAELI SAYS SHE'S STEPPING DOWN.

SHE JOINS ME NOW FROM TEL AVIV.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GOOD EVENING.

>> GOOD EVENING.

GOOD EVENING.

LET ME START BY ASKING YOU, FIRST AND FOREMOST, ABOUT THE WAR ON GAZA.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOUR COUNTRY IS ANY CLOSER TO ACTUALLY, MATERIALLY, QUOTE UNQUOTE, ERADICATING, YOU KNOW, DISEMPOWERING, ANNIHILATING HAMAS?

NONE OF THE MAJOR MILITARY LEADERS HAVE BEEN CAUGHT, AND THERE ARE STILL MORE THAN 100 ISRAELI HOSTAGES, INNOCENT CIVILIANS BEING HELD.

WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT?

>> 138 ISRAELIS, SOME OF THEM VERY ELDERLY, SICK, WOUNDED, SOME OF THEM WOMEN WHOM WE ALREADY ARE AWARE NOW, THANKFULLY THERE IS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH THERE, AND THIS IS SO IMPORTANT FOR ME TO EMPHASIZE, BECAUSE IT IS BECOMING THE SYMBOL OF WHAT HAMAS HAS BEEN DOING, CERTAINLY DID ON OCTOBER 7th, AND WHEN PEOPLE ARE ASKING, WHY DO WE INSIST ON ELIMINATING THE TERROR BASE THAT HAMAS BUILT IN GAZA, I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION.

WHAT DO THEY EXPECT FROM ISRAEL TO DO?

TO JUST AGREE TO LIVE SIDE-BY-SIDE WITH THIS HORRIFIC THREAT THAT CAME TO REALITY, CAME TO BE ON OCTOBER 7th?

THE FEROCIOUS WAY IT DID?

SO, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, CHRISTIANE, ISRAEL HAS TO ELIMINATE THE TERROR BASE THAT HAMAS BUILT IN GAZA AND TO TAKE IT OFF THE GOVERNMENT OF GAZA.

WE ARE NOT FIGHTING THE PALESTINIANS, CERTAINLY NOT FROM WHERE I STAND AND WHAT I HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR, AND LABOR HAS BEEN FIGHTING FOR EVER SINCE THE LATE PRIME MINISTER.

WE CANNOT AGREE, AND I'M VERY SORRY TO HEAR THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY INSISTING ON NOT ONLY NOT CONDEMNING WHAT HAMAS HAS DONE, BUT UNINSISTING ON INCLUDG IT, NOT AS A POLITICAL POWER, BUT AS THE REPRESENTATION OF PALESTINIANS.

>> JUST -- I HEAR WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AND WE WILL, OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE A TWO-HEADER TONIGHT, WE'VE GOT BOTH YOU AND PALESTINIAN POLITICIAN NASSER AL KIDWA, SO, FIRST, I'M ASKING FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, DO YOU THINK THAT THE CAMPAIGN, WHICH IS NOW, YOU KNOW, NEARLY TWO MONTHS, HAS ACTUALLY ACHIEVED WHAT YOU SAY YOU'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE?

>> IT WILL TAKE TIME.

IT'S CLEAR IT WILL TAKE TIME.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS BASED IN GAZA FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

THEY ARE SEEDED WITHIN THE CIVILIAN POPULATION, WHICH I SO NOT DISMISS THE CASUALTIES THERE, NOT IN ANY WAY, NOT ME NOR MANY OTHER ISRAELIS, WE -- WE DON'T JUST LOOK AWAY FROM THE SI SIGHTS IN GAZA, BUT THIS IS HAMAS' DOING.

INSTEAD OF TAKING ALL THE RESOURCES THAT WERE INVESTED THERE OVER THE YEARS, IT INVESTED IT IN TERROR, UNFORTUNATELY.

WHAT WE WILL HAVE TO RECOGNIZE AFTER THIS WAR IS THAT THE ONLY WAY TO LIVE HERE IN SECURITY FOR BOTH PEOPLES IS A POLITICAL SOLUTION TO THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN FOLLOWING FOR, WHAT WAS STARTED IN 1993, THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO TAKE PLACE.

BUT IT HAS TO BE WITH MUTUAL RECOGNITION, IT GOES AS MUCH AS IT DOES FOR ISRAEL, IT GOES FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

>> THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT, ACTUALLY, THE FUTURE, AND WHAMGST HAPPENS WHEN THE GU FALL SILENT.

AS YOU CORRECTLY SAY, WHAT HAPPENED OCTOBER 7th WAS DONE BY HAMAS, BUT I WONDER WHETHER YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ABOUT THE LATEST INVESTIGATIVE REPORT AND REVELATIONS BY "THE NEW YORK TIMES," RONAN BERGMAN, WHO HAS DUG DEEPER INTO STORIES THAT YOUR OWN PRESS HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, FOR A LONG TIME.

HE'S SPEAKING WITH ISRAELI OFFICIALS ON HOW NETANYAHU QUOTE UNQUOTE PROPPED UP HAMAS WITH QATARI FUNDS, TO TRY TO SEPARATE THE GAZA STRIP FROM THE WEST BANK, AND ESSENTIALLY TO AVOID HAVING TO DISCUSS OR CONTEMPLATE OR NEGOTIATE A PALESTINIAN S STATE.

EVEN, APPARENTLY, WHEN HE FOUND OUT THE MONEY WAS GOING TO THE MILITARY WING.

SO, A FORMER ALLY, AND NOW A FIERCE OPPONENT, WHO WAS A MINISTER, HAS TOLD BERGMAN, QUOTE, FOR NETANYAHU, THERE IS ONLY ONE THING THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

TO BE IN POWER AT ANY COST.

TO STAY IN POWER, HE PREFERRED TO PAY FOR TRANQUILITY.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THIS BIG STORY IN YOUR COUNTRY NOW?

>> IF YOU GO BACK, YOU CAN SEE MY QUOTES ON RECORD ALONG THE YEARS, SAYING EXACTLY THAT.

I AM AN OPPOSITION TO NETANYAHU FOREVER, I AM THE ONLY ONE FROM THIS CURRENT OPPOSITION WHO HAS NEVER AGREED TO SIT WITH HIM BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS EXACTLY.

SO, CERTAINLY, I THINK THIS WAR GOES TO SHOW THAT WHAT NETANYAHU HAS TRIED TO DO HAS FAILED, COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY.

AND WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE IT, ISRAELIS NEED TO RECOGNIZE IT, BUT AGAIN, CHRISTIANE, YOU CAN'T LET THE PALESTINIANS OFF THE HOOK.

THE FACT THAT ISRAEL UNDER NETANYAHU WAS GOING THE WRONG WAY DOES NOT MEAN THAT PALESTINIANS DO NOT HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO WHAT THEY'RE DOING, AND THEIR CHOICES.

THEY, TOO, HAVE TO DEMAND FROM THEIR LEADERSHIP TO STOP EDUCATING FOR HATE AND INCITEMENT, AND TO STOP ROBBING THEM FROM THEIR RIGHTS IN ORDER TO INFLICT TERROR ON ISRAEL AND THE JEWS.

>> WHY HAVE YOU LEFT, AND WHY ARE YOU LEAVING AS HEAD OF THE PARTY AND YOU SAID SHORTLY THEREAFTER, YOU WILL, AFTER YOUR TERM, YOU WILL LEAVE POLITICS ALTOGETHER?

WHY, IF YOU ARE SO COMMITTED TO PEACE AND LABOR HAS BEEN, AS YOU RIGHTLY SAID, YOU KNOW, THE -- A HUGE CHAMPION OF PEACE, WHY ARE YOU LEAVING?

I KNOW YOU ARE NOT DOING WELL IN PARLIAMENT, BUT WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE PEACE CAMP OR LEFTIST POLITICS THAT ARE CREATING THIS POLITICAL DYNAMIC?

>> WELL, THIS WILL CALL FOR A SPECIAL, BUT TO PUT IT IN A NUTSHELL, I WILL SAY THAT I -- AS YOU SAID, I'M VERY COMMITTED TO THE THINGS THAT I BELIEVE IN, PEACE, SECURITY, EQUALITY, ALL OF THOSE, AND RIGHT NOW, I FELT THAT I DON'T HAVE A LEVERAGE TO BRING THE PARTY TO DO BETTER IN THE ELECTIONS THAT I BELIEVE ARE COMING.

I BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BE COMING, AND I AM DOING MY BEST TO PROMOTE ELECTIONS IN ISRAEL.

AND SO, THIS IS WHY I PUSHED FORWARD THE PRIMARIES, I'M CALLING ON THE MANY NEW FORCES THAT ARE OUT THERE TO COME INTO POLITICS AND TO DO IT THROUGH LABOR, TO USE THIS VERY IMPORTANT INFRASTRUCTURE THAT I BELIEVE LABOR TO BE, AND TO COME AND LEVERAGE IT THE WAY I FEEL AT THE MOMENT I CANNOT DO, FOR THE SAKE OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

>> SO, YOU HAVE SAID, YOU OWE, YOU ARE PARTLY RESPONSIBLE, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE, YOU'RE THE LEADER, FOR THE STATE OF YOUR PARTY RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU REGRET, IN HINDSIGHT, THAT YOU DID NO GO INTO COALITION OR PARTNERSHIP IN THE PREVIOUS ELECTIONS WITH THE LEFT WING PARTY?

COULD YOU HAVE HAD MORE POLITICAL WEIGHT HAD YOU DONE THAT, GIVEN THAT YOU BOTH BELIEVE, AT LEAST IN SOME KIND OF PEACE SOLUTION?

>> I DO NOT BELIEVE IN WHAT IFS.

I AM ALWAYS DOING WHAT I BELIEVE TO DO.

THE MOST APPROPRIATE, THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

I'M KNOWN FOR FOLLOWING MY BELIEFS, MY IDEOLOGY AND MY SENSES AS TO WHAT IS RIGHT TO DO AND THIS IS WHAT I'M DOING.

CERTAINLY I'M TAKING RESPONSIBILITY.

I HAVE HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF SAVING THE LABOR PARTY WITH MY FRIENDS AND BRINGING IT TO A BIG SUCCESS IN THE PREVIOUS ELECTIONS.

IT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY IN THE SITUATION OF THE PARTY RIGHT NOW, THIS IS WHY I'M TALKING POSSIBILI RESPONSIBILITY AND CALLING ON THE NEW FORCES OUT THERE TO COME TO LABOR AND REBUILD IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

>> SO, I ASSUME YOU BELIEVE, BECAUSE I THINK YOU'VE SAID IT, THAT YOU -- THE STATE OF ISRAEL WOULD BE STRONGER AND MORE SECURE IF THERE WAS A POLITICAL SOLUTION.

I THINK YOU SAID THAT AT THE BEGINNING, ANYWAY, MOST ANALYSTS BELIEVE THAT.

BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE NO PLAN, NO POLITICAL PLAN FOR AFTER THE WAR.

AND NOT JUST NO PLAN, A PLAN THAT SEEMS TO BE MOVING TOWARDS AT LEAST FROM NETANYAHU'S MOUTH, YOU KNOW, WHO KNOWS HOW LONG OCCUPATION OF GAZA.

DESPITE WHAT HIS AMERICAN ALLIES AND OTHERS SAY.

IS THERE ANY POLITICAL PLAN THAT YOU CAN DISCERN, IS IT TIME NOW, EVEN NOW, AMIDST THE HORROR, TO THINK ABOUT A POLITICAL PLAN?

AND HOW DO YOU SEE A RESOLUTION SO THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN?

>> MY POINT EXACTLY.

IN ORDER FOR THIS NOT TO HAPPEN AGAIN, WE NEED TO START BUILDING A STRUCTURE OF A STATE THAT HAS ONE WEAPON AND ACTUALLY THE PALESTINIAN STATE THAT'S AL ALWAYS -- THAT WAS ALWAYS KNOWN THAT THE -- WHATEVER ACCORD WAS DISCUSSED, IT INCLUDED A DEMILITARIZED STATE, WHICH, IT SHOULD BE, BUT IT SHOULD BE THAT WAY, BECAUSE THE THOUGHT SHOULD BE ABOUT EVERYONE'S SECURITY IN THE REGION.

MORE WEAPON NEVER BRINGS MORE SECURITY, RATHER THE OPPOSITE.

SO, YES, AS DIFFICULT AS IT IS IN THESE VERY, VERY HARD TIMES, AND IN ISRAEL, THE TRAUMA IS SO, SO, SO PRESENT, IT IS VERY HARD TO EXPLAIN AND TO CONVEY TO PEOPLE FROM THE OUTSIDE HOW PRESENT THE TRAUMA IS, STILL, LEADERSHIP MUST COME UP WITH A PLAN THAT SEES A HORIZON.

AND A HORIZON FOR COEXISTENCE, THAT SEES EVERYONE'S BIGGER GOOD, LARGER GOOD.

IT IS POSSIBLE.

I KNOW IT IS POSSIBLE.

I KNOW THERE ARE PARTNERS.

WE JUST NEED TO BE DETERMINED TO GET RID OF THE BLAME GAME, THE -- SO LONG, ONGOING BLAME GAME AND TO START THINKING OF, WHAT IS THE BIGGER PICTURE THAT WE CAN REALLY NOT ONLY THRIVE TO, BUT REALLY GET THERE.

>> MERAV, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.

>>> AND NEXT, OF COURSE, IS CRITICAL TO REMEMBER THAT PALESTINIANS HAVE NOT HAD A CHANCE TO ACTUALLY CHOOSE THEIR LEADERS IN WELL OVER 15 YEARS, WHETHER IN GAZA OR THE WEST BANK.

SO, WHO WILL LEAD THEM OUT OF THIS WILDERNESS AND INTO EQUALITY AND STATEHOOD AND SECURITY FOR ALL?

JOINING ME ON THIS IS NASZER AL KID NASSER AL KIDWA.

HE WAS LAST IN THIS PROGRAM IN 2021, HE WAS RUNNING IN THE UPCOMING PALESTINIAN ELECTIONS THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, NASSER AL KIDWA.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU HEARD A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT MERAV WAS JUST SAYING, THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE THOUGHT RIGHT NOW, THE TRA MAW IS INCREDIBLY RAW INSIDE ISRAEL, BUT LEADERSHIP DEMANDS, YOU KNOW, THINKING ABOUT THE FUTURE.

WHERE ARE YOU NOW IN THESE -- IN THIS THINKING?

YOU DID TRY TO RUN ONCE AS AN INDEPENDENT.

I WONDER WHAT YOU SEE AS A -- A WAY OUT OF THIS, FOR PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP?

>> YES, GENERALLY, I THINK THAT WE HAVE FOUR TASK AHEAD OF US, AND WHEN I SAY WE, I MEAN ISRAELIS, PALESTINIANS, AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

THE FIRST ASK IS TO CHANGE, INDEED TO CHANGE THE PALESTINIAN SITUATION AND TO HAVE NEW FACES, NEW LEADERSHIP.

THE SECOND ONE IS TO END THE WAR AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, VERY QUICKLY, TO END THIS BARBARIC WAR, AND TO END IT THE RIGHT WAY, AND THE RIGHT WAY MEANS THE APPLICATION OF THE -- U.S. ADMINISTRATION, FOR INSTANCE.

AND THE THIRD TASK IS TO HAVE A NEW ISRAELI GOEVERNMENT, BECAUS I THINK THE DAYS OF MR. NETANYAHU HAVE LONG GONE, AND IT'S TIME NOW TO HAVE A NEW LEADERSHIP IN ISRAEL, AS WELL.

BUT THIS IS FOR THE ISRAELI SIDE TO -- TO DECIDE.

AND THE FOURTH TASK IS TO INDEED AGREE ON A POLITICAL FRAMEWORK THAT DEFINES THE END RESULT, WHICH IS BASICALLY, ISRAEL AND PALESTINE LIVE SIDE-BY-SIDE AND HAVE MUTUAL RECOGNITION BETWEEN THE TWO STATES.

>> OKAY, THAT SOUNDS -- THAT SOUNDS ALL GREAT, BUT THERE IS THE HAMAS FACTOR.

AND CLEARLY, AS YOU HEARD FROM MERAV, WHO IS ON THE LEFT, AND FRANKLY, EVERYBODY IN ISRAEL, CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE A COEXISTENCE OF THE TYPE YOU DESCRIBE WITH HAMAS PART OF THE EQUATION.

AS YOU HEARD, AND I QUOTED, PRIME MINISTER SAID OVER THE WEEKEND THAT HAMAS IS PART OF THE POLITICAL MOSAIC.

DO YOU -- DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT'S THE CASE?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I'M NOT REPRESENTING THE OFFICIAL PALESTINIAN POSITION, AS YOU REFERRED CORRECTLY.

NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE SITUATION THERE, I WROTE PUBLICLY IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE WAR, THAT THERE WILL BE THREE CHANGES.

ONE, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE NEW ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, TWO, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A NEW PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP, THREE, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A NEW HAMAS.

THIS IS, I THINK, THE BEST WAY TO PUT IT, SO -- ON ONE HAND, WE ARE TRYING TO ACCOMMODATE THE FACT THAT THERE IS AN IDEOLOGY, THERE IS AN IDEA, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE KNOW THAT THERE IS A NEW SITUATION, A NEW RESULT OF THE CURRENT WAR AND THE POSITIONS TAKEN BY MANY IMPORTANT PARTIES, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST IN GENERAL.

>> SO, I JUST WANT TO READ YOU SOME POLLS AND THINGS, JUST TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE HAMAS PART OF THIS PUZZLE.

SO, BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, SUPPORT FOR HAMAS WAS, IN FACT, LOW IN GAZA.

THERE WAS A POLL TAKEN, THE ARAB BAROMETER WAVE, IN -- AND IT SAID, BASICALLY, THAT ITS LEVEL OF APPROVAL WAS FALLING.

AND INDEED, I SPOKE TO CHIEF -- A REALLY SERIOUS MIDDLE EAST EXPERT ABOUT THIS, AND HE AGREED, HE SAID, YEP, HAMAS HAS FAILED IN GOVERNMENT, IT'S FAILED IN ALL SORTS OF THINGS TO REACH THE NEEDS OF THE ACTUAL PEOPLE, BUT THAT IT HAS GAINED BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th.

SO, THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF OUR EXCHANGE.

HAS HAMAS NOT PUT ITSELF OUT OF THE CALLING, OUT OF THE BIDDING?

>> THE PALESTINIANS WANT DIGNITY.

THE PALESTINIANS WANT EMANCIPATION.

THE PALESTINIANS WANT THE END OF THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION.

IF YOU ASK ME NOW WHO SPEAKS FOR THE PALESTINIANS, AND IT'S SAD TO SAY IT, HAMAS NOW SPEAKS FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

>> STILL?

>> WHAMAS NOW SPEAKS FOR PALESTINIAN ASPIRATION.

>> DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, THAT IT SPEAKS FOR THE PALESTINIANS?

AND HE, YOU KNOW, HE SORT OF ELABORATED BY SAYING, FOR THE ASPIRATIONS.

AND I ASK YOU THAT, BECAUSE THE P.A., WHICH YOU ARE NOT PART OF -- >> GO AHEAD?

>> THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAMAS SPEAKS FOR THE PALESTINIANS AND HAMAS SPEAKS FOR THE PALESTINIAN ASPIRATION.

I SPEAK FOR PALESTINIAN ASPIRATION.

MANY PEOPLE SPEAK FOR THE PALESTINIAN ASPIRATIONS.

ANYONE WHO SUPPORT INDEPENDENCE, RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION, LIVE IN DIGNITY, SPEAKS FOR PALESTINIAN ASPIRATION.

SO, I DON'T THINK IT'S THE SAME THING.

IN ADDITION, I DON'T THINK THAT HE'S CORRECT WHEN HE SPEAKS OF THE INCREASE IN POPULARITY.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS ACCURATE.

AT LEAST NOT IN -- IN GAZA.

AND ANYWAY, MYSELF AND MANY FRIENDS, EVEN BEFORE THE WAR, ADVOCATED THE NECESSITY OF CHANGING THE SITUATION IN GAZA, CHANGING OF THE GOVERNMENT IN GAZA, AND WE DID HAVE SOME SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS WITH EACH OTHER AND WITH PALESTINIAN FACTIONS INCLUDING HAMAS, BY THE WAY, AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THERE WAS SOME SERIOUS PROGRESS IN THAT DIRECTION, HOWEVER, OF COURSE, THE WHOLE THING STOPPED AFTER THE WAR.

LET ME SAY, IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING, THAT WE ARE HERE BECAUSE OF THE POLICIES OF MR. NETANYAHU.

OTHERWISE, THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT LONG TIME AGO.

>> WHAT DO YOU EXACTLY MEAN FROM THAT?

THEY SAY IT'S -- WHATEVER POLICIES HE'S HAD, HE HAD, HAMAS CREATED THE SLAUGHTER ON OCTOBER 7th.

SO, WHAT DO YOU MEAN EXACTLY?

>> FINE, BUT WHO -- WHO CAUSED THIS SITUATION TO START WITH?

WHO MAINTAINED OR ENCOURAGED THE SPLIT BETWEEN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK?

AND ENCOURAGED THE PRESENCE OF AN AUTHORITY UNDER THE CONTROL OF HAMAS IN GAZA AND AN AUTHORITY UNDER CONTROL OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IN THE WEST BANK AS A WAY TO -- TO AVOID ANY SERIOUS POLITICAL SOLUTIONS?

WHO KEPT THIS SITUATION FOR THAT LONG?

WHO TARGETED THE PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS IN PREVIOUS WARS AND INSTEAD OF TARGETING ANYBODY ELSE?

THAT'S WHAT, BY THE WAY, THAT'S WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW ALSO, IN MUCH MORE LARGER SCALE AND MORE ATROCIOUS WAY.

I MEAN, THE AMOUNT OF -- OF T THE -- THE DEATH OF PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS, THE NUMBER OF THE DEATH AND THE AMOUNT OF DESTRUCTION IS UNBELIEVABLE, AND I DON'T THINK THIS IS THE WAY TO DEAL WITH HAMAS OR ANY OTHER THREAT TO THE ISRAELI SECURITY.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU HAVE, I MEAN, I'M JUST SAYING THIS MYSELF, SORT OF A PALESTINIAN PEDIGREE, IF YOU GO BACK TO THE PLO.

YOU WERE PLO, NOT ONLY THAT, YOU WERE THE NEPHEW OF PLO LEADER YASSER ABOUT ARE FAT, WHO DID ACTUALLY MAKE PEACE WITH THE ISRAELIS DURING AND DID RECOGNIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL DURING THE OSLO NEGOTIATIONS.

SO, HOW IS IT THAT THE PLO/PA HAS BECOME SO DISCREDITED AND THAT HAMAS HAS GAINED SO MUCH STRENGTH, AND TELL ME WHAT IT'S LIKE ON THE WEST BANK?

WE KIND OF KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN GAZA, BUT WHAT IS IT LIKE ON THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK?

IS HAMAS A BIG POLITICAL FORCE THERE, TOO?

AND A MILITARY FORCE?

>> IT IS A FORCE IN THE WEST BANK, THANKS TO THE INEPTNESS OF THE GROUP THAT IS GOVERNING NOW, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, T THANKS AGAIN TO MR. NETANYAHU AND TO PROBABLY THE SUPPORT OF SOME WESTERN POWERS.

THERE IS ABSOLUTE FAILURE ON THE PART OF THE GROUP IN CONTROL OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

THE LAST TIME THEY WENT TO A ELECTION WAS 17, 18 YEARS AGO.

THEY DESTROYED THE INSTITUTIONS COMPLETELY.

THEY VIOLATED THE PRINCIPLE OF THE RULE OF LAW.

THEY VIOLATED ALL KIND OF BASIC RIGHTS OF THE PALESTINIAN P PEOPLE.

SO, THIS IS A SITUATION THAT HAS TO END.

AND IT HAS TO END BECAUSE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, WANT IT TO END.

NOT BECAUSE MR. NETANYAHU WANTS THAT, AND NOT BECAUSE MR. BIDEN WANTS THAT.

IT'S BECAUSE THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WANT THAT, AND IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE ARE GOING TO CHANGE THIS SITUATION ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, AND HOPEFULLY, THROUGH PEACEFUL AND NICE WAY, BUT IF NOT, THERE IS THE HARSH WAY, AS WELL.

>> WELL, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A BIT OF A THREAT.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

>> WELL, I'M NOT THREATENING ANYBODY, BUT AGAIN, THIS SITUATION HAS TO CHANGE.

HOPEFULLY THROUGH A PEACEFUL, NICE WAY, BUT IF NOT, THEN WE WILL HAVE TO GO THE HARSH WAY.

THE HARSH WAY DOESN'T MEAN MILITARY WAY OR DOESN'T MEAN BLOOD-LETTING, IT MEANS THE -- THE -- THE COMING TOGETHER OF MANY PALESTINIAN FACTIONS, WITH A CLEAR POLITICAL BASIS FOR THE COMMON WORK, AND FRANKLY, GETTING INTO A SITUATION THAT MIGHT BE UGLY, BUT NECESSARY, TO COMPETE WITH THE AUTHORITY IN RAMALLAH AND TO COMPETE WITH THE PLO AND DRIVE IT OUT ONCE AND FOR ALL, BUT HOPEFULLY, AGAIN, I AM REALLY HOPEFUL THAT IT'S GOING TO BE THE FIRST SCENARIO, THE PEACEFUL SCENARIO, THE SCENARIO THAT REQUIRES SOME KIND OF COOPERATION BY THE CURRENT GROUP IN RAMALLAH.

>> SO, YOU ARE -- YOU'RE RESERVING YOUR ANGER AND CRITICISM FOR THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IN RAMALLAH.

BUT WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?

I MEAN, THERE'S A TERRIBLE WAR GOING ON, GAZA SEEMS TO BE COMPLETELY SEPARATE FROM ANYTHING ELSE.

WHAT IS THE MECHANISM, EVEN WITHIN YOUR OWN, YOU KNOW, WITHIN THE PALESTINIANS, TO EVEN HAVE AN ACCOUNTING, A POLITICAL ACCOUNTING, ELECTIONS, I MEAN, SOMETHING?

IS THERE ANY MECHANISM, OR DOES IT HAVE TO AWAIT THE END OF THIS WAR?

>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THE FINAL -- THE RIGHT SOLUTION IS THE GENERAL ELECTION.

THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

BUT FRANKLY, YOU AND ME KNOW THAT THIS IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE NOW, AND THERE'S A CONSENSUS.

WHEN WE HAVE MORE THAN A MILLION AND A HALF PALESTINIAN DISPLACED, WE CAN'T ASK THEM COME AND VOTE, SO, WE NEED TO CREATE SOME KIND OF RESEMBLANCE OF NORMAL LIFE FOR THESE PEOPLE AND THEN GO FOR ELECTIONS.

UNTIL THEN, WE NEED A TRANSITION.

AND A TRANSITION, I THINK, THE PEACEFUL ONE, MIGHT BE ONE THAT MEANS A -- THE EXISTENCE OF FULLY MANDATED PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT WITH MR. ABBAS AND HIS GROUP STEPPING ASIDE AND NOT HAVING ANY IMPACT OR ANY INFLUENCE OVER THE AFFAIRS OF THIS GOVERNMENT, WHETHER -- WITH REGARD TO THE GAZA STRIP OR WITH REGARD TO THE WEST BANK, BECAUSE IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO -- TO AFFIRM THE UNITY OF THE PALESTINIAN LAND, AS WELL AS THE UNITY OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AND THE PALESTINIAN ADMINISTRATION, AS WELL.

>> NASSER AL KIDWA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, AS WE CONTINUE THESE CONVERSATIONS TO SEE WHAT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE AFTER THIS TERRIBLE WAR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW, TALKING OF DEMOCRACY, THE UNITED STATES HAS A HARD TIME BEING THAT STANDARD BEARER, AS DONALD TRUMP IS DOUBLING DOWN ON HIS VISION OF BEING A DICTATOR.

YEP.

THAT IS WHAT HE TOLD THE NEW YORK YOUNG REPUBLICAN CLUB'S ANNUAL GALA THIS WEEKEND.

I SAID I WANT TO BE A DICTATOR FOR ONE DAY.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG IS EDITOR IN CHIEF OF "THE ATLANTIC."

HE LAUNCHED A SPECIAL EDITION OF THE MAGAZINE WARNING OF THE GRAVE AND EXTREME CONSEQUENCES IF TRUMP WERE TO BECOME PRESIDENT AGAIN, AND HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY WOULD BE MORE DANGEROUS THAN THE FIRST.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW, JEFFREY GOLDBERG.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WHY DID YOU PICK DOING A SPECIAL ISSUE LIKE THIS ON THE DANGERS OF A TRUMP PRESIDENCY?

>> BECAUSE IT'S, WELL, A NUMBER OF REASONS.

ONE, I THINK THAT A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY, BASED OFF OF WHAT WE ALL SAW ON JANUARY 6th, I THINK A TRUMP PRESIDENCY, ANOTHER TRUMP PRESIDENCY, POSES AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

I'M NOT MAKING A PARTISAN POINT.

IF TRUMP WERE A REGISTERED DEMOCRAT AND DID WHAT HE DID, WE WOULD SAY THE SAME THING.

I THINK IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO TRY TO MAKE THESE SETS OF ARGUMENTS.

IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S ACTUALLY MORE THAN 20 DIFFERENT WRITERS TAKING ON THEIR SUBJECT AREA EXPERTISE, SO, WE HAVE PIECES ON IMMIGRATION, NATIONAL SECURITY, STAFFING OF THE MILITARY, THE CIVIL SERVICE, SUPREME COURT ISSUES.

BUT IT'S REALLY ULTIMATELY ABOUT A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT, A FORMER PRESIDENT, WHO IS A CURRENT CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT, WHO DOES NOT RESPECT AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC IDEALS AND DEMOCRATIC NORMS.

AND IT'S -- IT'S WORTH CALLING OUT AND IT'S WORTH CALLING OUT IN ONE PLACE, IN ONE PACKAGE.

SO THAT -- SO THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE IT.

I DON'T MAKE THE ASSUMPTION THAT PEOPLE IN MEDIA AND POLITICS HERE IN WASHINGTON WHERE I AM, YOU KNOW, WE SOMETIMES ASSUME THAT EVERYBODY IS FOLLOWING EVENTS THE WAY THAT WE DO.

AND -- BUT WHAT WE KNOW ALSO IS THAT AT THIS STAGE IN A PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, PRESIDENTIAL CYCLE, PEOPLE AREN'T PAYING REGULAR ATTENTION, AND SO, I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE GOOD TO REMIND PEOPLE BEFORE THE PRIMARY PROCESS BEGINS OF WHAT HAPPENED THE LAST TIME AROUND.

>> YOU SAY, AS "THE ATLANTIC" ALWAYS DOES THAT YOU'RE NOT PART OF ANY PARTY OR CLIQUE, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS Y'ALL WRITE IS THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW HAS MORTGAGED ITSELF TO DONALD TRUMP.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> YEAH, WELL, SO, MY ARGUMENT, I THINK THE INSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENT AND MY INDIVIDUAL ARGUMENT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT ONE PREREQUISITE FOR A HEALTHY DEMOCRACY IS TO HAVE AT LEAST A STRONG, VIBRANT LIBERAL PARTY AND A STRONG, VIBRANT CONSERVATIVE PARTY.

YOU WANT TO HAVE OTHER STREAMS OF THOUGHT, GREAT.

OTHER PARTIES, GREAT.

BUT THAT'S THE SORT OF A MI MINIMUM.

AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN, UNFORTUNATELY, IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, IS THAT IT'S BECOME LESS A KIND OF HOT BED OF INTERESTING CONSERVATIVE IDEAS, RIGHT, AND POLICY PRESCRIPTIONS THAT YOU CAN TAKE AND THEN HOLD UP AGAINST LIBERAL POLICY IDEAS AND PRESCRIPTIONS AND THEN ARGUE IT OUT IN THE MARKETPLACE.

IT'S BECOME A CULT OF PERSONALITY AND IT'S SUBSUMED ITSELF TO MAR-A-LAGO, IN A VERY, VERY UNHEALTHY AND, TO ME, UN-AMERICAN WAY.

AND SO, WE'RE -- WE'RE IN THE SHAPE WE'RE IN NOT BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP IS THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE, BUT BECAUSE TOO MANY REPUBLICANS THAT KNOW BOATER ARE GOING ALONG WITH THIS KIND OF CULT OF PERSONALITY.

AND, YOU KNOW THIS AND I KNOW THIS, THERE ARE A LOT OF REPUBLICANS, NOT JUST THE MITT ROMNEYS AND KLUS CCHRIS CHRISTI ARE CALLING OUT DONALD TRUMP.

THERE ARE OTHERS THAT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th, BEFORE AND AFTER JANUARY 6th, AND ARE UPSET ABOUT IT, BUT THEY WANT TO KEEP THEIR JOBS, OR THEY'RE SCARED OF HARASSMENT AND RETALIATION, SO, THEY DON'T SAY ANYTHING, THESE ARE THE, FOR INSTANCE, THESE ARE THE KIND OF SENATORS WHO KNEW BETTER, YOU KNOW, THE ROB PORTMANS OF THE WORLD WHO DIDN'T VOTE TO CONVICT IN THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, EVEN THOUGH THEY KNEW THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD FOMENTED AN ANTI-CONSTITUTIONAL REBELLION AGAINST THE SETTLED ELECTION RESULTS OF 2020.

>> YOU HAVE ABOUT TWO DOZEN PEOPLE WRITING IN IT, AND ONE OF THEM IS DAVID FROMM, WHO MAKES THAT POINT, THAT IT WILL BE A REVENGE PRESIDENCY, THAT HE'LL TAKE THE FBI AND WEAPONIZE IT.

AND DO THINGS.

AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS A LITTLE BIT OVERBLOWN, BUT HE JUST CAME OUT IN THE PAST FEW DAYS AND SAID IT OUTRIGHT.

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S OVERBLOWN, AND ONE OF THE REASONS I DON'T THINK IT'S OVERBLOWN IS, I JUST SPENT A LONG PERIOD REPORTING ON A LARGE ARTICLE THAT APPEARED A COUPLE MONTHS AGO ON GENERAL MARK MILLEY, THE NOW FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, WHO BECAME A REAL THORN IN DONALD TRUMP'S SIDE, BECAUSE MILLEY REALIZED, AS HE WAS SERVING IN THE PENTAGON, IN THAT TOP JOB, HE REALIZED THAT TRUMP'S LOYALTY WAS NOT TO THE CONSTITUTION, BUT HIMSELF.

AND AFTER MY ARTICLE CAME OUT ABOUT MARK MILLEY AND ABOUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH DONALD TRUMP, TRUMP SAID THAT, HE SAID THIS PLAINLY ON SOCIAL MEDIA, HE SAID THAT MARK MILLEY SHOULD BE TRIED FOR TREASON.

FOR THE THINGS THAT HE SAID AND DONE.

SO, LIKE, I -- I BELIEVE IN TAKING PEOPLE AT THEIR WORD.

DONALD TRUMP WILL COME INTO -- IF HE COMES INTO OFFICE, HE WILL AUTHORIZE HIS JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO INVESTIGATE MARK MILLEY.

REMEMBER, DONALD TRUMP IS A PERSON WHO THREATENED IN HIS FIRST TERM, HE'S THREATENED TO CALL BACK TO ACTIVE DUTY GENERAL STANLEY McCHRYSTAL AND WILLIAM McRAVEN, TWO RETIRED FOUR-STAR GENERALS, INCREDIBLE AMERICAN PATRIOTS AND SOLDIERS, HE THREATENED TO CALL THEM BACK TO ACTIVE DUTY, WHICH YOU CAN DO AS PRESIDENT, IN ORDER TO COURT MARTIAL THEM.

WHY?

BECAUSE THEY WERE CRITICAL OF HIS LEADERSHIP.

THERE'S NOTHING SECRET HERE.

THERE'S -- I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING OVERBLOWN.

HE WILL BLOW OPEN THE NORM THAT HAS EXISTED FOR A VERY LONG TIME, THAT, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE WATERGATE ERERA, THAT THE ATTORY GENERAL OPERATES AUTONOMOUSLY FROM THE POLITICAL OPERATION OF THE WHITE HOUSE, RIGHT?

THAT'S -- ATTORNEY GENERAL ALWAYS ANNOYED PRESIDENTS, RIGHT, BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THE CABINET, BUT THEY'RE RUNNING THEIR OWN SHOW, AND THE REASON THEY'RE RUNNING THEIR OWN SHOW IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO HAVE PROSECUTORIAL INDEPENDENCE.

DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO GET RID OF THAT.

HE'S PROMISED TO GET RID OF THAT.

SO, LOOK, I DON'T -- YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT TO BE CHICKEN LITTLE ON THE ONE HAND, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU DON'T WANT TO DOWNPLAY THE THREAT, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE'S ARTICULATED THE THREAT.

>> YOUR ARTICLE ABOUT GENERAL MARK MILLEY WAS VERY REVEALING, ESPECIALLY SINCE WE THOUGHT THAT THE ADULTS IN THE ROOM WERE GOING TO BE OUR SAFETY NET IN THE FIRST TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

TELL ME ABOUT THOSE ADULTS IN THE ROOM, WHAT THEY'RE SAYING NOW, AND WHETHER YOU THINK THERE WILL BE ADULTS IN THE ROOM IF THERE IS A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY?

>> THE WHOLE POINT OF A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY IS THAT THERE NOT BE ADULTS IN THE ROOM.

HE DOES NOT WANT A TEAM OF RIVALS.

HE DOES NOT WANT SERIOUS ADVISERS WHO SAY TO HIM, YEAH, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T DO THAT.

HE WANTS PEOPLE WHO WILL AGREE WITH HIM.

THE -- THE ADULTS IN THE ROOM THE FIRST TIME AROUND, THOSE INCLUDE REX TILLERSON AND JAMES MATTIS, THE FIRST SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AND BILL BARR, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, JOHN KELLY, HIS DHS SECRETARY AND THEN HIS CHIEF OF STAFF, AND SO ON.

TO A PERSON, BELIEVED THAT A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY WOULD BE A THREAT TO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

THEY'VE ALL SAID IT PUBLICLY.

I MEAN, IT'S KIND OF ASTONISHING THAT THEY'RE NOT HEARD, BECAUSE IN ORDINARY -- IF THIS WAS -- IF ORDINARY POLITICAL PHYSICS WAS APPLYING HERE, THE RULES OF PHYSICS WERE APPLYING, YOU KNOW, WHEN ALL OF YOUR CABINET, OR MOST OF YOUR CABINET FROM YOUR FIRST TERM COMES OUT AND SAYING THAT YOU'RE AN ACTIVE DANGER TO THE REPUBLIC, VOTERS WOULD PAY ATTENTION TO THAT.

AND BY THE WAY, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, R RABID -- WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FACULTY COMING OUT AND SAYING DONALD TRUMP IS A DANGER TO DEMOCRACY, OR THE MAYOR OF PORTLAND, OREGON, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RETIRED MARINE GENERALS, RIGHT?

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PRETTY TOUGH GUYS, REPUBLICANS, WHO ARE SAYING THIS GUY IS DANGEROUS.

THEY DID A GOOD JOB FOR AS LONG AS THEY LASTED.

IN CHECKING SOME OF THE WORST IMPULSES OF DONALD TRUMP, AND DONALD TRUMP HAS TREMENDOUS RESENTMENT FOR THEM, BECAUSE HE REALIZES THAT IN MANY CASES, HE WAS OUTFOXED BY THEM.

AND THAT'S WHY HE DOESN'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN THE SECOND TERM.

IT'S GOING TO BE MAGA FROM DAY ONE.

AND WHAT JOHN KELLY DID ALONE, THROWING HIMSELF INTO THE GEARS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TO PREVENT SOME CRAZY THINGS FROM HAPPENING, IT -- AGAIN, IF ORDINARY RULES APPLY, YOU KNOW, JOHN KELLY WOULD BE GETTING, YOU KNOW, AWARDS FROM CONGRESS FOR DOING WHAT HE DID.

>> SO, THAT RAISES WHO MIGHT BE IN A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

ONE OF YOUR GREAT STAFF WRITERS SPECULATED A BIT ON IT, I'VE SEEN AXIOS SPECULATING ON IT, SEEMS A BIT LIKE TRYING TO HANDICAP A DOG RACE, BUT THINK THROUGH WHO MIGHT BE IN A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

>> RIGHT, JUST TO NAME TWO NAMES, OBVIOUSLY STEPHEN MILLER.

WE KNOW STEPHEN MILLER AS THE IMMIGRATION CZAR AND A REAL HARD LINER ON IMMIGRATION AND OTHER ISSUES FROM THE FIRST TRUMP WHITE HOUSE.

THERE'S A VERY, VERY GOOD CHANCE THAT TRUMP WOULD NOMINATE HIM TO BE SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

IF THE SENATE WERE CONSTRUCTED IN A WAY THAT WOULDN'T ALLOW FOR HIM TO GET THROUGH, PEOPLE ARE SPECULATING THAT HE COULD BE THE CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

SO, YOU START WITH A STEPHEN MILLER, WHO IS A REAL TRUE BELIEVER, A REAL HARD CORE LOYALIST, AND WHO BELIEVES THAT HE'S THERE TO SERVE DONALD TRUMP, NOT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OR THE CONSTITUTION.

SECOND EXAMPLE WOULD BE RICK GREENLE, WHO BASICALLY WAS THIS TWITTER TROLL WHO CAME TO PROMINENCE IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WORKED IN THE INTELLIGENCE AREA, BECAME AN AMBASSADOR, AND IS -- IS, YOU KNOW, TRUMPIST ALL THE WAY DOWN, SAND AND WHEN TRUMP, THE FIRST DAY IN OFFICE SAYS, YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK WE SHOULD PULL OUT OF NATO, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET RICK IN THE WHITE HOUSE SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT, MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T PULL OUT OF NATO, HERE'S WHY.

WE'RE GOING TO SAY, YES, SIR, WE'LL GO DO IT.

>> YOUR SPECIAL EDITION ADDRESSES THAT ISSUE, PULLING OUT OF NATO, AND WE KNOW THAT DONALD TRUMP IN A NEXT TERM IF HE GETS ONE WOULDN'T BE SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

TELL ME WHAT THE RAMIFICATIONS OF ALL THAT WOULD BE TO AMERICAN'S FOREIGN POLICY.

>> WELL, WE WOULD BE INVITING THE DARK AGES ACROSS THE PLANET.

AGAIN, NOT TO BE OVERLY DRAMATIC ABOUT IT, BUT WE'RE ALREADY IN A BIT OF A DEMOCRATIC RECESSION, RIGHT?

RUSSIA IS FEELING ITS OATS IN UKRAINE, AND, YOU KNOW, THE UKRAINIANS DON'T HAVE THEM ON THE ROPES THE WAY A LOT OF PEOPLE HOPED THEY WOULD.

THEY'RE IN THE FIGHT, BUT IT'S NOT GOING EXTREMELY WELL.

XI AND CHINA, THE NORTH KOREANS, THE VENEZUELANS, HAMAS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF POWERFUL ORGANIZATIONS AND COUNTRIES RIGHT NOW THAT ARE RUN IN A VERY AN ANTI-DEMOCRATIC WAY, AND DONALD TRUMP HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT HE ADMIRES STRONGMEN.

HE SAID IT.

HE LOVES HUNGARY, HE THINKS PUTIN AND XI ARE GREAT, STRONG LEADERS.

SO, FOR THOSE OF US IN THE WEST WHO THINK THAT DEMOCRACY IS A FLAWED SYSTEM, BUT IT'S THE BEST ONE WE HAVE, YOU KNOW,IT'S GOING TO BE TOUGH TIMES, AND AMERICA, YOU KNOW, AND YOU KNOW THIS, FROM 1945 ONWARD, AMERICA SET THE RULES OF THE ROAD, THAT THE RULES-BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER POST WORLD WAR II WAS ESTABLISHED AND MAINTAINED BY THE UNITED STATES.

DONALD TRUMP IS THE FIRST FIGURE OF HIS LEVEL OF IMPORTANCE TO FUNDAMENTALLY QUESTION WHETHER AMERICA HAS TO PLAY THAT ROLE OR AMERICA SHOULD PLAY THAT ROLE OR THAT'S A ROLE WORTH PLAYING.

SO, WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME PRETTY SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES OF A TRUMP VICTORY.

>> GEORGE PACKER WRITES IN THE SPECIAL ISSUE ABOUT THE PRESS, AND SAYS, YOU KNOW, UNLIKE PUTIN, HE'S NOT GOING TO HAVE TO POISON MEMBERS OF THE PRESS, BECAUSE HE'S SO UNDERMINED PUBLIC CREDIBILITY, THE PUBLIC'S BELIEF IN THE PRESS.

ALSO, THOUGH, HE WOULD PROBABLY USE THE PRESIDENCY TO GO AFTER SOME OF THE MEDIA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK, YOU KNOW, STEVE BANNON AND KASH PATEL, PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE LOYALIST CAMP, HAVE SAID JUST THIS WEEK THAT THEY WANT TO PROSECUTE JOURNALISTS FOR FAKE NEWS OR WHATEVER THE MAKE BELIEVE CHARGE IS.

I WOULD FULLY EXPECT THEM TO TRY TO CHANGE THE LAWS OR USE EXISTING LAWS TO PUNISH AND PERSECUTE JOURNALISTS THEY DON'T LIKE.

I MEAN, WE ARE -- WE'RE HEADING INTO SOMETHING THAT SEEMS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS.

I JUST -- WHAT I TELL PEOPLE IS, BY THE WAY, YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER THE TWO OF US HAVING THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT TERRORIST GROUPS.

WHEN THEY TELL YOU THEY'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING, BELIEVE THEM.

RIGHT?

OR WHEN PUTIN SAYS, YOU KNOW, UKRAINE IS PART OF RUSSIA AND DOESN'T EXIST AS -- YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID, WELL, HE DOESN'T MEAN THAT, IT'S A METAPHOR, HE'S JUST SABER RATTLING -- LISTEN TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY TELL YOU WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO.

IT'S SAFEST TO LISTEN TO PEOPLE.

AND IF PEOPLE, IF TRUMP AND PEOPLE AROUND TRUMP ARE SAYING THAT THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO PROSECUTE JOURNALISTS FOR EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, THEY'RE GOING TO PROSECUTE JOURNALISTS FOR EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

>> YOU KNOW, GREG SERGEANT WRITING IN "THE WASHINGTON POST" A FEW DAYS AGO SAID SOMETHING ABOUT, ENOUGH WITH THIS FATALISM, WE'RE OVERDOING IT, I THINK HE QUOTED A SCHOLAR SAYING, CREATING AN AURA OF DESTINY AROUND THE LEADER GALVANIZING HIS SUPPORTERS BY MAKING THE MOVEMENT SEEM STRONGER THAN IT IS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I ADMIRE GREG SERGEANT'S WORK, I DISAGREE WITH HIM ON THIS.

I THINK IT'S OUR JOB TO HIGHLIGHT THE THREAT.

I DON'T THINK IT'S -- I DON'T THINK IT'S -- I THINK WHAT'S INEVITABLE, OR, I WOULD ALMOST BET MONEY ON, IS THAT HE'S GOING TO GET -- TRUMP IS GOING TO GET THE NOMINATION.

I DON'T SEE THAT GOING ANY OTHER WAY, THOUGH WHO KNOWS.

I DON'T SEE HIS ELECTION AS A FOREGONE CONCLUSION.

THAT'S WHY WE CALL THE ISSUE "IF TRUMP WINS."

NOT "WHEN TRUMP WINS."

>> JEFFREY GOLDBERG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A TREAT.

HE IS THE ACCLAIMED COMPOSER BEHIND SOME OF THE MOST RECOGNIZABLE MOVIE SCORES OF THE LAST 100 YEARS, FROM "INDIANA JONES" TO "STAR WARS," JOHN WILLIAMS' CAREER SPANS MORE THAN SIX DECADES AND 53 OSCAR NOMINATIONS.

AT 91 YEARS OLD, HE IS THE MOST NOMINATED PERSON ALIVE AT THE ACADEMY AWARDS.

NOW, HE'S TEAMING UP YET AGAIN WITH MUSICAL PHENOMENON ANNE-SOPHIE MUTTER, A FOUR-TIME GRAMMY AWARD-WINNING VIOLINIST.

THEY'RE COLLABORATING WITH A PERFORMANCE OF SOME OF WILLIAMS' MOST ICONIC PIECES.

LIKE THIS ONE.

♪ ♪ >> THEY JOIN ME LIVE FROM THE HEINZ HALL IN PITTSBURGH TO PREVIEW THEIR CONCERT TOMORROW NIGHT FOR US.

JOHN WILLIAMS, ANNE-SOPHIE MUTTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME JUST STATE THE OBVIOUS.

ANNE-SOPHIE, YOU ARE MOST WELL KNOWN FOR PLAYING THE CLASSICS, THE BACH, BEETHOVEN, AND JOHN WILLIAMS, SO MUCH HONORED AND WELL-KNOWN AS A MOVIE, YOU KNOW, COMPOSER.

CAN YOU TELL ME, FIRST, JOHN, WHAT SPARKED THE COLLABORATION AND THE CONNECTION?

>> WELL, THE CONNECTION WAS A VERY PERSONAL ONE.

ANNE-SOPHIE WAS MARRIED TO ANDRE PREVIN, A GREAT COMPOSER, PIANIST, FORMALLY, THE CONDUCTOR OF THIS HOUSE, HEINZ HALL IN PITTSBURGH.

I I KNEW HIM FOR 70 YEARS, WE WERE KIDS PLAYING THE PIANO.

HE WAS ALWAYS A LITTLE BETTER THAN I WAS AT MOST OF THOSE THINGS, BUT ENCOURAGED ME AND ACTED AS A MENTOR, IN A WAY.

AND WHEN HE MARRIED ANNE-SOPHIE, WHO I KNEW FROM HER PLAYING AND HER RECORDINGS, BUT WHO I NEVER MET, I BECAME VERY INTERESTED IN HER ALWAYS, AND KNEW HER WITH ANDRE IN THOSE YEARS.

ANDRE, IS REAL CONNECTION THAT BROUGHT US TOGETHER PERSONALLY, AND MUSICALLY.

I WILL LET HER TALK MAYBE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW WE GOT TOGETHER MUSICALLY.

>> YEAH.

>> YEAH.

>> SOMETHING TO DO WITH CHRISTMAS COOKIES.

>> YES, EVENTUALLY.

SO, I GREW UP -- AND WHEN THE FIRST CAME INTO THE THEATERS IN 1978, I WAS TOTALLY BLOWN AWAY BY THE DEPTH OF THE MUSIC, BY ITS INCREDIBLE RICHNESS OF CHARACTER AND THE LIGHT MOTIFS, AND OVER THE YEARS, HOW WELL THAT MUSIC DEVELOPED INTO EVEN MORE, BECAUSE IT HAD SUCH SOPHISTICATION IN ITSELF, AND SUCH A PERSONAL WAY TO EXPRESS CHARACTERS.

AND I BECAME A DEEP JOHN WILLIAMS FAN, AND I WAS ALSO FOLLOWING HIS CLASSICAL SCORES, OF COURSE.

BUT YOU KNOW, FROM THE BLACK FOREST TO HOLLYWOOD, IT'S NOT JUST AROUND THE CORNER.

SO, I KNEW THAT ANDRE AND JOHN WERE VERY GOOD FRIENDS, AND SO, I WAS THE ONE WHO ALWAYS ASKED, COULDN'T YOU ASK JOHN TO WRITE SOMETHING FOR ME, AND THEN WE MET, SOME 11 YEARS AGO, AND I ASKED JOHN, AS USUAL, VERY GRACIOUS AND -- BUT PRETTY MUCH TURNED THE IDEA DOWN, AND NOW THE COOKIE MOMENT IS COMING INTO THE STORY.

I THINK YOU HAVE TO TELL THAT, JOHN.

>> WELL, THE STORY VERY QUICKLY IS, I ACTUALLY FORGOT ABOUT HER REQUEST TO WRITE SOMETHING, AND RECEIVED IN THE MAIL A PACKAGE FROM MUNICH, I KNEW NO ONE IN MUNICH.

CHRISTMAS COOKIES, AND IT WAS FROM ANNE-SOPHIE.

I FELT VERY GUILTY.

I WROTE A PIECE CALLED "MARKINGS," WHICH SHE PERFORMED AROUND THE WORLD.

>> IN 2017.

>> THAT FLATTERED ME SUFFICIENTLY AND ENCOURAGED ME AND INSPIRED ME TO DO MORE.

>> IT'S GREAT TO SEE SUCH HUGE TALENTS, DIFFERENT STYLES, BUT HUGE TALENTS COLLABORATING, AND ANNE-SOPHIE, YOU SAID "STAR WARS" IS WHAT SPARKED YOUR FANGIRLISM, AND NOW, YOU HAVE, JOHN, COMPOSED FOR THE TWO OF YOU.

YOU -- IT'S CALLED THE WILLIAMS CONCERT NUMBER TWO, YOU ARE PLAYING, AND WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS PLAY A LITTLE EXCERPT RIGHT NOW.

♪ ♪ >> SO, YOU TALKED ABOUT THIS CON CH CHER TOE THAT YOU COULD ONTO THINK OF ONE PERSON PLAYING, AND THAT WAS ANNE-SOPHIE.

JOHN, WHAT WAS SO SPECIAL ABOUT THIS MUSIC FOR HER?

>> I LISTENED TO ANNE-SOPHIE, THERE WAS MANNERISMS THAT SHE DISPLAYED IN THIS PIECE, RHYTHMIC PRO KLIFFTIES, LITTLE IMPULSES TO DO, AND THE SAME THING WITH PHRASING, A LITTLE SLIDE, WE WOULD SAY.

SO, WHEN I SET THE TIME TO WRITE THE CONCERTO, THE REAL INSPIRATION WAS ANNE-SOPHIE, BECAUSE I REMEMBERED THE MA MANNERISMS, HER BOWING TECHNIQUE, TO PUT THEM INTO THE CONCERTO.

SO, IN A WAY, I WAS TRYING TO IMITATE WHAT I THOUGHT HER STYLE WAS IN THIS PARTICULAR RHYTHMIC CONTEXT.

AND SO, IN A WAY, ANNE-SOPHIE IS A COAUTHOR OF THE PIECE, IF YOU LIKE, IN SOME RESPECTS.

>> THAT'S A HUGE HONOR.

>> AND WHAT IS IT LIKE, ANNE-SOPHIE, TO ACTUALLY PLAY THE MUSIC OF A LIVING COMPOSING?

LET'S FACE IT, ALL THE CLASSICS YOU PLAY, YOU KNOW, THE COMPOSERS ARE NO LONGER WITH US.

WHAT IS IT LIKE?

>> IT'S ALWAYS PARTICULARLY EXCITING AND VERY CHALLENGING TO WORK WITH A LIVING COMPOSER.

IN THE CASE OF JOHN, IT'S EVER MORE SO EXCITING, BECAUSE THE DIVERSITY OF HIS MUSICAL UNIVERSE IS TOTALLY UNIQUE, AND SO, FOR ME, PLAYIN ING THESE SO, IS AS IMPORTANT TO ME AS AN ARTIST, IN FINDING THE RIGHT TONE, THE RIGHT PERSONALITY, THE RIGHT STYLE, AS, OF COURSE, RECEIVING THIS FABULOUS VIOLIN CONCERTO, WHICH I'VE CHAMPIONED AROUND THE WORLD, LITERALLY, IN THE LAST TWO YEARS.

IT'S A HUGE HONOR, BUT THERE'S ALWAYS THE RISK OF FAILURE AND NOT SATISFYING THE WISHES AND DREAMS OF THE COMPOSER, SO, YOU KNOW, I'M HAPPY THAT JOHN STILL TALKS TO ME AND THAT WE WILL HAVE THIS WONDERFUL OCCASION HERE IN PITTSBURGH AND REALLY, IT'S THE GREATEST GIFT, OF COURSE, THE BEST EXCUSE ONE CAN HAVE TO ASK JOHN TO CONDUCT A PART OF A CONCERTO, JUST USE MY 60th BIRTHDAY AS AN EXCUSE.

>> IT'S A GOOD EXCUSE.

>> IT'S THE GREATEST PRESENT I COULD DREAM OF.

>> I SAID TO ANDRE, SHE'S FROM GERMANY, SHE WILL NEVER PLAY IT WITH THE JAZZ INFLECTION THAT IT NEEDS, AND HE SAID, SHE CAN PLAY ANYTHING.

AND I DISCOVERED SHE CAN.

>> SO, LET'S PLAY HER PLAYING THIS EXCEPT FROM "SCHINDLER'S LIST."

♪ ♪ >> JOHN I ALMOST SAW YOUR COUNTENANCE CHANGE, YOU GOT REALLY PENSIVE, REALLY, YOU KNOW, THOUGHTFUL, LISTENING TO THIS.

OBVIOUSLY, THIS FILM WAS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE WORST HORRORS THAT WE CAN IMAGINE AND IT'S VERY DIFFERENT FROM, YOU KNOW, PLAYING "STAR WARS" OR "HARRY POTTER," ALL OF THAT.

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, JOHN, AS YOU JUST HEARD THAT THEME THAT YOU COMPOSED FOR SPIELBERG'S FILM "SCHINDLER'S LIST?"

>> WELL, THE SUBJECT OF SOMETHING THAT IS ALWAYS NOW GOING TO BE WITH US CLOSE IN OUR HEARTS AND IN OUR SOULS, AND I THINK THERE'S A -- PARTICULARLY IN THAT PIECE, AS A SPIRITUAL COMPONENT THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALL SHARE AND IT IS A COMPONENT THAT'S BEYOND SPEECH OR WORDS.

IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH OUR CONNECTION WITH THE COSMOS, AS CREATURES WITH A MIND.

WITH CREATURES THAT HAVE A SENSE OF SOMETHING MORE THAN THE C CORPORAL LIFE THAT IS OUR SPIRITUAL ONE, AND I THINK MUSIC TAKES US TO THOSE PLACES, SUBJECTS LIKE THE BEAUTIFUL FILM OF "SCHINDLER'S LIST," THE WONDERFUL ACTING AND WRITING IN IT, ALL CONSPIRED TO CREATE SOMETHING MORE WONDERFUL AND MORE BEAUTIFUL THAN ANY OF US CAN DO AS INDIVIDUALS.

IT BECOMES A COSMIC, SPIRITUAL KIND OF MOMENT, AND THIS ALSO DESCRIBES LIVE MUSICAL PERFORMANCES LIKE HERE IN PITTSBURGH, BOSTON, WHEREVER WE DO THESE THINGS.

SO, IT'S A DIFFERENT PART OF OUR LIVES.

IT'S NOT A MATERIAL PART, IT'S A SPIRITUAL PART.

AND THAT WAS THE OPPORTUNITY IT GAVE ME, IN THE FILM OF "SCHINDLER'S LIST" TO WRITE WHAT I DID.

VERY SIMPLE.

VERY DIRECT.

IT'S VERY -- >> I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU, BUT I JUST WANTED TO SAY, BECAUSE YOU'RE THE ELDER STATESMAN, AS WE SPEAK TO YOU RIGHT NOW, I WONDER, THINKING ABOUT ALL THE INCREDIBLE SCORES THAT YOU HAVE CREATED, DO YOU HAVE A FAVORITE?

AND WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE YOUR LEGACY TO BE?

>> I DON'T REALLY HAVE A FAVORITE.

MY PERSONALITY IS SUCH THAT I THINK THERE ARE SOME PRETTY GOOD THINGS IN MOST ALL OF THE SCORES, BUT THERE ARE ALSO THINGS THAT I THINK TO MYSELF, I MIGHT HAVE DONE A LITTLE BIT BETTER IF I HAD ANOTHER CHANCE TO DO IT.

BUT WITHOUT GIVING AN EXCUSE, IT'S A LITTLE BIT LIKE JOURNALISM, YOU HAVE TO WRITE THE NOTES YOU WANT TO WRITE, AND HAVE THEM PLAYED RIGHT AWAY AND THEY'RE RECORDED BEFORE EVEN THE INK IS DRY, SO -- MY LEGACY, I WILL JOIN ANDRE IN JUST SAYING, I'D LIKE TO BE REMEMBERED AS A FAIRLY DECENT WORKING MUSICIAN, WHO IS DEDICATED TO THE NUTS AND BO BOLTS.

>> BUT WHAT WOULD WE BE WITHOUT YOUR GENIUS, JOHN?

NOTHING.

WE WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO EXPRESS ANYTHING.

>> IT'S GOING TO BE A FORMIDABLE CONCERT TOMORROW.

THE LUCKY PEOPLE AT HEINZ HALL IN PENNSYLVANIA.

LOOK, WE THANK YOU VERY MUCH, WE COULD TALK FOR A LOT MORE TIME, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE OUT OF TIME NOW.

BUT THANKS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> JOHN WILLIAMS, ANNE-SOPHIE, THANK YOU.

>> IT'S A GREAT PLEASURE.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOODNIGHT FROM LONDON.