>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY COMES TO CONGRESS.

COULD THE WAR BE WON OR LOST 5,000 MILES FROM THE HOME FRONT?

I ASK BEN HODGES, FORMER U.S. ARMY COMMANDER IN EUROPE.

>>> ALSO, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER ALEXEI NAVALNY IS STILL MISSING.

HIS CLOSE AIDE MARIA PEPCZI SHARES HER WORRIES.

>>> PLUS, THE PERFORMANCE ARTIST WHO BRINGS A WHOLE NEW MEANING TO BODY OF WORK.

>>> PLUS, THE COLLISION OF FREE SPEECH AND ANTISEMITISM AT SOME AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES.

HARVARD BACKS ITS PRESIDENT WHILE HARRI SRINIVAS SPEAK OVER THE ISSUE THERE.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON JAY MELVIN.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR FAMILIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL HELP PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

NEARLY TWO YEARS AGO, PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN AND HIS NATO ALLIES ROSE UP TO DEFEND UKRAINE AND HELP STAVE OFF RUSSIA'S ILLEGAL INVASION.

BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, TONS OF ARMAMENTS AND AMMUNITION WAS SENT, AND THE BATTLE FOR DEMOCRACY WAS WELL AND TRULY JOINED.

BIDEN AND HIS ALLIES PROMISED THAT THEY WOULD SUPPORT UKRAINE FOR, QUOTE, AS LONG AS IT TAKES, UNTIL NOW THAT IS, WHEN THE U.S. CONGRESS DECIDED TO INSERT POLITICS OVER THE U.S. BORDER INTO THIS EXISTENTIAL FIGHT AGAINST PUTIN'S OUAUTOCRATIC RUSSIA, HOLDING UP ABOUT $60 MILLION IN NEW AID AS THE WHITE HOUSE WARNS THAT CURRENT FUNDING COULD RUN OUT IN JUST A FEW WEEKS.

HERE IS HOUSE SPEAKER REPUBLICAN MIKE JOHNSON.

>> THIS IS AN IMPORTANT BATTLE FOR ALL THE REASONS WE KNOW.

BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS A RADICAL PROPOSITION TO SAY THAT IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A NATIONAL SECURITY SUPPLEMENTAL PASSAGE, IT OUGHT BEGIN WITH OUR OWN NATIONAL NATIONAL SECURITY FIRST.

>> BUT BIDEN HAS INVITED VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY TO WASHINGTON TO MAKE HIS CASE AT A MAKE OR BREAK MOMENT.

HE TOLD CAPITOL HILL IF UKRAINE LOSES, THAT MEANS PUTIN WINS.

>> ALL FREE NATIONS NEED TO BE CONFIDENT IN THEMSELVES, IN THEIR STRENGTHS, IN THEIR LITERACY SO THAT DICTATORSHIPS DOUBT THEMSELVES AND THEY HAVE THE POWER TO UNDERMINE FREEDOM.

WHEN THE FREE WORLD HESITATES, THAT'S WHEN DICTATORSHIPS CELEBRATE, AND THEIR MOST DANGEROUS AMBITIONS.

>> IN MOSCOW, PUTIN IS WATCHING CLOSELY, WHILE HEAVILY BOMBARDING THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE.

RETIRED GENERAL BEN HODGES LED U.S.

FORCES IN EUROPE, AND HE HAS BEEN A STRONG SUPPORTER OF UKRAINE AND OF WHAT'S AT STAKE ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND OFF.

AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM FRANKFURT, GERMANY.

GENERAL HODGES, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

WE'VE OFTEN SPOKEN ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, AND YOU'VE OFTEN HAD AN OPTIMISTIC VIEW OF WHAT UKRAINE CAN MANAGE WITH FULL U.S. SUPPORT.

ARE YOU CONCERNED AT THE MOMENT THAT THIS SUPPORT IS IN QUESTION?

>> YES, I AM, CHRISTIANE.

THIS WAR IS AT A TIPPING POINT.

WE, THE WEST -- I'M VERY PROUD OF WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE WEST HAVE DONE AND WHAT WE HAVE PROVIDED UKRAINE, BUT WE HAVE FAILED THE CRITICAL TEST OF DECIDING WHAT IS THE STRATEGIC OUTCOME THAT WE WANT.

WE HAVE NOT SAID WE WANT UKRAINE TO WIN.

AND SO BECAUSE OF THAT, WE'VE BEEN HESITANT AND INCREMENTAL IN DECISION MAKING AND IN APPROVING WHAT WOULD BE SENT TO UKRAINE.

AND SO WE STOP SHORT OF PROVIDING THEM WITH WHAT THEY NEEDED TO ACTUALLY WIN.

THE KREMLIN HAS ADOPTED A LONG WAR STRATEGY, BECAUSE THEY CAN SEE THEY HAVE NO OTHER HOPE EXCEPT TO WAIT FOR US TO GIVE UP.

THAT'S WHY THEY FEED THOUSANDS OF SOLDIERS INTO THE MEAT GRINDER EVERY DAY TO CONVEY THE IMPRESSION THAT THEY HAVE ENDLESS RESOURCES, BECAUSE THEY CAN SEE THAT WE ARE BEGINNING TO GET TIRED OR LOSE INTEREST.

AND EVERY TIME THE CONGRESS STUMBLES LIKE THEY ARE RIGHT NOW OR HESITATES, THAT'S OXYGEN FOR THE KREMLIN'S DESIRE FOR THIS LONG WAR STRATEGY.

>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE THE CONGRESSIONAL VOTE IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT, AND ZELENSKYY IS THERE TRYING TO MAKE HIS CASE.

YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN THESE KINDS OF THINGS BEFORE, OR MAYBE NOT.

HAS THIS KIND OF FUNDING FOR KEY AMERICAN INTERNATIONAL NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE BEEN HELD UP BY A RECALCITRANT CONGRESS?

AND IN YOUR MIND, WHAT SHOULD THE ADMINISTRATION DO?

SHOULD IT AGREE TO A -- TO MORE -- WHATEVER IT TAKES, COMPROMISE ON THE IMMIGRATION AND BORDER SECURITY?

>> WELL, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME, OF COURSE, THAT FUNDING HAS BEEN HELD UP FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.

THAT'S NOT NEW.

I THINK WHAT'S NEW IS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS TURNED ITS BACK ON UKRAINE AND IS ENABLING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

THIS IS THE PARTY OF REAGAN.

I NEVER WOULD HAVE IMAGINED THAT.

THIS IS A SEA CHANGE IN AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY.

NOW, THE BURDEN IS ALSO, THOUGH, ON THE ADMINISTRATION.

THE PRESIDENT AND HIS TEAM HAVE GOT TO EXPLAIN TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHY THIS IS IN OUR INTERESTS.

SPEAKER JOHNSON IS NOT CORRECT WHEN HE SAYS THEY NEED TO FOCUS ON AMERICAN SECURITY.

THIS IS ABOUT AMERICAN SECURITY.

THIS AFFECTS OUR ECONOMY.

IT AFFECTS THE POSSIBILITY OF US ENDING UP IN A NATO CONFLICT.

AND OF COURSE, CHINA IS WATCHING.

IF THE CHINESE SEE THAT WE LACK WILL AND INDUSTRIAL CAPACITY, THEN I DON'T THINK THEY'LL BE TOO IMPRESSED WITH ANYTHING WE SAY ABOUT THE INDO-PACIFIC REGION.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU TO LAY IT ON THE LINE FOR AMERICANS, AND MAYBE EVEN PEOPLE IN CONGRESS.

IF THE UKRAINIANS WERE NOT THE FOOT SOLDIERS IN THEIR OWN WAR AGAINST THIS RUSSIAN INVASION, IF, YOU KNOW, RUSSIA HAD INVADED A NATO COUNTRY, WOULD WE NOT SEE AMERICAN BOOTS ON THE GROUND OR SUCH THING?

IN OTHER WORDS, ISN'T UKRAINE DOING AMERICA AND THE WEST'S WORK FOR IT IN THIS CASE?

>> ACTUALLY, UKRAINE IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT NATO WAS CREATED TO DO, WAS TO STOP RUSSIA FROM INVADING OR DEVOURING EUROPE.

NOT ONE AMERICAN SOLDIER HAS BEEN LOST IN THIS CONFLICT SO FAR AND IN RELATIVE TERMS,A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF OUR DEFENSE BUDGET, UKRAINE HAS TAKEN ABOUT 300,000 RUSSIAN SOLDIERS OFF THE BATTLEFIELD, PLUS SANCTIONS WE'RE DOING HAS WRECKED RUSSIA'S DEFENSE INDUSTRY.

THEY'RE HAVING TO IMPORT POOR QUALITY AMMUNITION FROM NORTH KOREA AND DRONES FROM IRAN.

SO UKRAINE IS DOING SOMETHING THAT HELPS US.

IT PROTECTS ALL OF EUROPE.

AND THEY'RE NOT ASKING FOR AMERICAN TROOPS.

THEY'RE JUST ASKING FOR THE TOOLS TO ACTUALLY WIN.

>> CAN I ASK YOU WHETHER IT SOUNDS PLAUSIBLE TO YOU, THE U.S. HAS RELEASED SOME FIGURES THAT AROUND 87% OF RUSSIA'S ACTIVE DUTY GROUND FORCES ARE NO LONGER THERE.

THE ONES THAT EXISTED BEFORE FEBRUARY 2022, AND NOW.

DOES THAT RING REASONABLE TO YOU?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, THE RUSSIANS HAVE HAD TO FROM THE ORIGINAL 140, 150,000 THAT THEY STARTED WITH BACK IN FEBRUARY OF LAST YEAR FOR LARGE-SCALE INVASION, SINCE THEN THEY HAVE GONE THROUGH A COUPLE OF PARTIAL MOBILIZATIONS, THEY HAVE EMPTIED THEIR JAILS, THEY HAVE PULLED ALL OF THEIR TROOPS AWAY FROM THE BORDER WITH FINLAND, ESTONIA AND LATVIA, AS WELL AS SOME OF THE TROOPS THEY HAVE STATIONED IN GEORGIA IN ORDER TO FEED THE MACHINE THAT THEY HAVE IN UKRAINE.

THEY HAVE LOST AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF CASUALTIES ON TOP OF EQUIPMENT, SHIPS, AIRCRAFT.

THEY HAVE BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY, YES.

>> ON THE OTHER HAND, UKRAINE WE KNOW, BECAUSE WE'RE HEARING IT, WE HEAR THEIR HEAD OF THE MILITARY TALK ABOUT A STALEMATE.

WE KNOW THE RUSSIANS ARE DUG IN HEAVILY.

WE KNOW THAT JUST THIS ATTRITION IS COSTING HUGE AMOUNTS OF LIVES ON THE UKRAINIAN SIDE, WHICH THEY CANNOT AFFORD.

AND TODAY WE'RE HEARING AN MP TALKING TO CNN EARLIER, BASICALLY SAYING THE FOLLOWING.

KYIV CAN BE TURNED INTO THE SECOND MARIUPOL AND TOTALLY ERASED, BECAUSE WE SEE HUNDREDS OF DRONES FLYING TO KYIV EVERY DAY.

BUT THEY'RE NOT USING THE MISSILES A LOT YET.

IN OTHER WORDS, RUSSIA IS NOT YET USING ITS MISSILES.

SO WE'RE WAITING FOR A MASSIVE ATTACK OF HUNDREDS OF DRONES, AND THEN HUNDREDS OF MISSILES.

AND IF THERE IS NOTHING TO PUT THEM DOWN WITH, THAT'S IT.

WE'RE DONE.

HOW GRAVE DO YOU THINK THE SITUATION FOR UKRAINE IS RIGHT NOW?

EVEN ZELENSKYY IS SAYING, YOU KNOW, IF WE LOSE, PUTIN WINS.

WE MIGHT HAVE TO RESORT TO GUERRILLA WARFARE.

>> WELL, THIS IS A WAR FOR THE SURVIVAL OF UKRAINE.

THEY ARE FIGHTING LITERALLY FOR THEIR NATIONAL SURVIVAL.

AND RUSSIA CLEARLY HAS NO CONCERNS ABOUT USING DRONES, MISSILES, ROCKETS, AND ARTILLERY AGAINST CIVILIAN TARGETS.

SO WHAT THE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT IS TALKING ABOUT OF COURSE IS THIS RELENTLESS AIR WAR, IF YOU WILL, GOING AGAINST CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE AS THEY DID LAST WINTER.

SO THAT'S GOING TO CONTINUE.

AND SO PROVIDING ADEQUATE AIR AND MISSILE DEFENSE FOR UKRAINE IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF HELPING THEM GET THROUGH THIS.

BUT THAT'S NOT GOING TO DECIDE THE OUTCOME.

WHAT'S GOING DECIDE THE OUTCOME OF THIS WAR IS THE ABILITY OF UKRAINE TO CONTINUE ACTUALLY FIGHTING.

WHAT THEY WILL BE DOING I THINK OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, THEY WILL BE RECONSTITUTING UNITS THAT HAVE BEEN WARN OUT.

THEY'LL BE WORKING TO IMPROVE THE RESILIENCE AND POWER OF THEIR POWER GENERATION SYSTEMS THERE IN THEIR CITIES.

I THINK THAT THEY WILL BE WORKING ON IMPROVING THE EFFICIENCY OF THEIR RECRUITING SYSTEM.

THEY STILL HAVE A LOT OF MANPOWER AVAILABLE IN UKRAINE.

SO I THINK THERE ARE THINGS THAT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO DO, AND ALSO I THINK WE'LL SEE A LOT MORE SABOTAGE HAPPENING IN RUSSIAN OCCUPIED PARTS OF UKRAINE EVEN INSIDE RUSSIA.

AND MORE PRESSURE ON THE RUSSIAN FORCES IN CRIMEA.

THE UKRAINIANS ARE NOT GOING TO SIT AROUND AND HOPE THAT SOMETHING GOOD HAPPENS.

THEY'RE GOING TO KEEP MOVING WITH OR WITHOUT US.

>> CAN I JUST SWITCH OVER TO THE WAR RAGING IN THE MIDDLE EAST RIGHT NOW.

BROWN UNIVERSITY'S COST OF WAR PROJECT REMINDS US THAT OVER 432 CIVILIANS WERE KILLED AS A RESULT OF DIRECT FIGHTING IN AMERICA'S POST-9/11 WARS.

THAT'S AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ.

THE GAZA DEATH TOLL STANDS NOW AT NEARLY 18,000 ACCORDING TO THE PALESTINIAN HEALTH AUTHORITIES.

SO I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION.

HOW CAN THE ISRAELI ARMY, HOW SHOULD IT, THE MILITARY, AVOID CIVILIAN CASUALTIES?

AND GIVEN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE UNITED STATES, PARTLY BECAUSE OF ALL THOSE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES AND THE BACKLASH, WHAT WILL HAPPEN, DO YOU THINK, TO ISRAEL IF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES KEEP MOUNTING LIKE THIS?

>> CHRISTIANE, IF YOU ALLOW ME, HAMAS' ATTACK ON ISRAEL, BY THE WAY, IS NOT A COINCIDENCE.

HAMAS DID IN ONE DAY WHAT PUTIN COULD NOT DO IN TWO DAYS, WHICH IS PRETTY MUCH MAKE THE WORLD FORGET ABOUT -- PUTIN COULD NOT DO IT IN TWO YEARS, MAKE THE WORLD FORGET ABOUT UKRAINE.

I THINK THAT IRAN, RUSSIA'S MOST IMPORTANT AND CLOSEST ALLY SUPPORTING HAMAS DID THIS TO SUPPORT RUSSIA.

RUSSIA'S BENEFITTING FROM THIS ATTACK IN ISRAEL MORE THAN ANYBODY.

NOW TO YOUR POINT, THE -- I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE MISSION STATEMENT THAT COMES FROM PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

HE TOLD HIS ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE DESTROY HAMAS THAT WAS IT.

DESTROY HAMAS.

THERE IS NO POLITICAL DIMENSION TO THE STRATEGIC END STATE HE DESCRIBED FOR HIS MILITARY.

IF THERE IS NO STRATEGIC END STATE, THE IDF, ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE ENDS UP USING KINETIC FORCE ONLY.

BUT IF THE STRATEGIC END STATE INCLUDES A POLITICAL DIMENSION SUCH AS WE HAVE TO LIVE WITH OUR PALESTINIAN NEIGHBORS AT THE END OF THIS, THAT WILL INFORM HOW ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES GO ABOUT THEIR TASK OF DESTROYING HAMAS.

RIGHT NOW I THINK GIVEN THE ATTITUDE OF THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT ON ALL ASPECTS OF THIS, I DON'T SEE IT GETTING ANY BETTER, UNFORTUNATELY.

AND THAT DOES NOT BODE WELL FOR THE ABILITY OF THE UNITED STATES TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT ISRAEL.

>> SO FASCINATING AS WE CONTINUE TO WATCH BOTH THESE WARS.

GENERAL BEN HODGES, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

AND OF COURSE, IT'S 432,000 CIVILIANS WHO WERE KILLED IN THOSE U.S. POST-9/11 WARS.

>>> NOW TO RUSSIA, WHERE IS ALEXEI NAVALNY?

IT HAS BEEN SEVEN DAYS SINCE HIS TEAM HAD ANY CONTACT WITH HIM.

HE IS OF COURSE THE RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER WHO HAS BEEN JAILED FOR YEARS.

THIS MORNING, HE FAILED TO SHOW UP FOR A COURT DATE, ADDING TO THE CONCERNS NAVALNY HAS SUFFERED SERIOUS HEALTH ISSUES WHILE IN PRISON.

PUTIN SPOKESPERSON DMITRY PESKOV SAYS THE KREMLIN HAS NEITHER THE INTENTION OR THE ABILITY TO MONITOR THE STATE OF PRISONERS.

HIS CLOSE AIDE JOINS US FROM HEADQUARTERS IN VILNIUS, LITHUANIA.

MARIA, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

SO CAN YOU GIVE US UPDATE?

IS THERE ANY MORE NEWS IN THE LAST FEW HOURS?

HAVE YOU RECEIVED ANY MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE POSSIBILITIES OF WHERE ALEXEI NAVALNY MIGHT BE?

>> I WOULD LOVE TO GIVE YOU AN UPDATE, CHRISTIANE, BUT WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING NEW.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE PROBLEM.

IT'S BEEN A WEEK SINCE WE HAVEN'T HEARD ANYTHING SPECIFIC FROM NAVALNY, AND WE ARE DESPERATELY LOOKING FOR AN UPDATE, FOR INFORMATION, FOR CLUES THAT WOULD HELP US LOCATE HIM.

BUT SADLY, FOR MORE THAN SEVEN DAYS NOW, WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHERE HE IS.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT WITH ALL THE EXPERIENCE YOU'VE HAD WHEN YOU TALK TO ALL HIS LAWYERS AND AIDES AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN CONSTANT CONTACT WITH HIM UNTIL NOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE REASON?

WHAT DO YOU THINK COULD HAVE HAPPENED?

>> I THINK IT'S REASONABLE TO SAY THAT IT MUST BE CONNECTED TO PUTIN'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, TO THE CAMPAIGN THAT HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED LAST WEEK.

PUTIN IS GOING TO RUN FOR THE ELECTIONS FOR THE FIFTH TIME IN MARCH 2024.

AND IT WAS OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED LAST WEEK.

AND AROUND THIS TIME, MAYBE A DAY OR TWO BEFORE THAT, THIS IS WHEN WE LOST TOUCH WITH NAVALNY.

AND I WOULD IMAGINE THESE TWO EVENTS ARE INTERCONNECTED.

WE HAVE ALSO ANNOUNCED OUR OWN CAMPAIGN, ANTI-PUTIN CAMPAIGN, ANTI-WAR CAMPAIGN, AND I THINK THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE OF THIS EXTREME ISOLATION THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH NOW IS TO SILSILENCE NAVALNY AND CUT HIM OFF FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD ENTIRELY.

SO IT'S VERY LIKELY THAT THIS IS THE WAY THAT PUTIN IS GOING TO MANAGE HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

AND HE WOULD LOVE IT TO BE AS QUIET AND AS SMOOTH AS POSSIBLE.

>> SO ARE YOU SAYING -- BECAUSE AS I SAID, DMITRY PESKOV SAID THEY HAD NEITHER THE ABILITY, THE CAPACITY OR THE WILLINGNESS TO MONITOR A PRISONER'S WHEREABOUTS.

BUT OBVIOUSLY HE IS A MAJOR PRISONER, A MAJOR THORN IN THEIR OWN SIDE.

SO THEY'VE GOT KNOW WHERE HE IS AND WHAT HIS STATE.

DO YOU THINK THE ISOLATION WILL CONTINUE UNTIL THE ELECTION OR THEREAFTER?

>> IT IS POSSIBLE.

AND OF COURSE, EVERY TIME PESKOV OPENS HIS MOUTH, IT'S VERY LIKELY TO BE A LIE.

SO WE HAVE SURE THAT THE KREMLIN KNOWS EXACTLY WHERE NAVALNY IS, AND WE'RE ALSO SURE THAT THE KREMLIN FROM DAY ONE OF NAVALNY'S IMPRISONMENT, THAT THEY ARE DEALING WITH HIM ON A DAY-BY-DAY BASIS AT THE HIGHEST AVAILABLE LEVEL AT THE PRESENT ADMINISTRATION.

WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE WHAT HIS PLANS ARE.

AND THIS IS ALSO A TERRIFYING THING.

WE KNOW THAT'S THE VERY SAME PEOPLE WHO KEEP NAVALNY IN CUSTODY RIGHT NOW BEFORE THAT HAVE AUTHORIZED HIS MURDER.

BEFORE THAT HAVE ATTEMPTED TO POISON HIM WITH A CHEMICAL WEAPON, WITH NOVA TOX.

SO CLEARLY, THESE PEOPLE HAVE ZERO BOUNDARIES.

THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE.

AND THEY ARE CAPABLE OF ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING.

>> CAN I ASK YOU JUST TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING WE SPOKE ABOUT WHEN -- DURING THE FILMING, THE DOCUMENTARY THAT WON THE OSCAR.

BEFORE NAVALNY WENT BACK TO RUSSIA, I ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS DECISION TO RETURN.

THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT HE TOLD ME, JUST A SHORT EXCERPT FOR OUR INTERVIEW.

>> THE REASON WHY THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS DEGRADING.

HE IS THE REASON WHY PEOPLE ARE SO POOR.

WE HAVE 25 MILLION PEOPLE LIVING BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.

AND THE WHOLE DEGRADATION OF SYSTEM.

FORTUNATELY FOR ME INCLUDING SYSTEM OF ASSASSINATION OF PEOPLE, HE IS THE REASON OF THAT.

AND I WANT TO GO BACK AND TRY TO CHANGE IT.

>> HE BEING PUTIN, OBVIOUSLY.

WHEN WE SPOKE YOU SAID YOU BELIEVE HE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION TO GO BACK.

DO YOU STILL THINK HE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION?

>> UM, I'M STILL CONVINCED HE DID.

AS DIFFICULT AS IT IS TO SAY IT, JUST LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS TO EVEN MORE PEOPLE LIVE BELOW POVERTY LINE NOW, EVEN WORSE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED.

MORE MURDERS, MORE POLITICAL IMPRISONMENTS SINCE THAT INTERVIEW THAT WE'VE JUST SEEN, HAS LAUNCHED A WAR, A FULL-SCALE WAR AGAINST UKRAINE.

SO NOW IT REALLY -- DOESN'T IT MAKE MORE SENSE NOW WHY NAVALNY WENT BACK?

THAT'S EXACTLY WHY HE DID IT.

BECAUSE IT'S SOMEBODY NEEDS TO STOP THIS.

SOMEBODY NEEDS TO BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO SAY NO AND TO FIGHT THIS DICTATORSHIP.

AND NAVALNY BEING THE LEADER THAT HE IS, HE IS LEADING BY EXAMPLE.

>> AND PAYING A VERY HEAVY PRICE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW IN CONTEMPORARY ART, THERE IS THE WORLD BEFORE MARIA ABRAMOVICH AND THE WORLD AFTER.

THE SERBIAN ART CYST A CELEBRATED PIONEER OF PERFORMANCE ART.

RATHER THAN WORKING WITH CANVAS OR CLAY, SHE USES HER BODY AS A MEDIUM, FORCING THE AUDIENCES TO I WANT ACT WITH HER FROM WAYS THAT RANGE FROM UNCOMFORTABLE TO DOWNRIGHT DANGEROUS.

THE ROYAL ACADEMY IN LONDON HAVE TAKEN ON THE DAUNTING TASK OF PRESENTING A DEFINITIVE RETROSPECTIVE OF ABRAMOVICH'S WORK.

WHEN WE MET RECENTLY, SHE SHOWED ME THROUGH SOME OF THE INSTALLATIONS WHILE DEMONSTRATING WHY SHE IS ON TRULY AN EXTRAORDINARY JOURNEY, AND WHY AT77 SHE REMAINS UNSTOPPABLE IN HER FIELD.

MARINA ABRAMOVICH, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM IS THERE.

PERFORMANCE ART, AND THEN THERE IS YOU.

JUST A WALK AROUND THIS EXHIBITION REALLY MAKES ME WONDER, ARE THERE ANY LIMITS THAT YOU WILL NOT GO TO?

YOUR BODY IS YOUR TOOL.

AND IT IS EXTRAORDINARY WHAT YOU DO TO IT.

BUT THIS QUESTION I CAN ANSWER WITH ANOTHER QUESTION.

WHO CREATE?

I THINK WE DO.

I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO WHEN I GET AN IDEA THAT I NOT INTERESTED IN THE IDEA I LIKE.

I'M INTERESTED IN THE IDEA I HATE.

AND I'M INCREDIBLY SCARED OF.

BECAUSE THEN MEANS A PROBLEM I HAVE TO SOLVE.

AND THEN I LIKE TO DO IT.

SO THE ONLY THING THAT I AM DOING, I AM USING MY OWN BODY IN ORDER TO STAGE THAT KIND OF FEARS IN FRONT OF THE PUBLIC.

I'M GOING THROUGH.

IF I GO THROUGH, YOU CAN GO THROUGH.

>> SO THE WAY YOU HAVE PERFORMED GOING THROUGH IS THROUGH A DOOR, WHERE ORIGINALLY, YOU AND YOUR LOVER AT THE TIME STOOD IN A DOORWAY NAKED.

AND THE CHALLENGE WAS FOR THE VISITORS TO WALK THROUGH YOU.

WHAT FEAR WERE YOU ADDRESSING THERE?

AND WHAT DID YOU AIM TO ACCOMPLISH?

>> FIRST OF ALL, YOU KNOW, THE MAIN IDEA WAS THERE WAS A BIG PERFORMANCE FIRST OF ALL IN ITALY AT THE TIME VERY EARLY IN 1997.

AND WE WERE THINKING WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO IN THIS FESTIVAL?

BUT YOU KNOW, THE IDEA WAS IF IT'S NOT ARTISTS, THERE WILL NOT BE MUSEUMS.

SO ARTISTS ARE THE DOOR OF THE MUSEUM.

SO WE WANT TO BE IN VERY POLITICAL WAY THE DOOR OF THE MUSEUM.

TO DO THAT, WE HAVE TO REBUILD THE DOOR SMALLER SO IT'S REALLY NARROW ACTUALLY ENTRANCE.

IN THOSE DAYS WAS IMPOSSIBLE.

IN MANY OTHER MUSEUMS YOU HAVE TO HAVE SECOND THAT PEOPLE HAVE ALTERNATIVE.

1997, WE HAD RADICAL WAY OF DOING STUFF, WHICH I KNOW BECAUSE OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS WE ARE NOT ABLE TO DO ANYMORE.

SO WE HAVE LOTS OF RESTRICTIONS ON ART TODAY.

AND THEN THE IDEA WAS WE GO THROUGH, AND THE FEELING WAS REALLY TO BE NAKED AND HAVE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE PASSING SO CLOSE TO YOUR BODY AND HAVE THIS INTIMACY.

NOT EASY.

NOT EVEN MENTION STEPPING ON YOUR FEET.

>> AND DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> OH, YES, MANY TIMES.

>> AND DID PEOPLE EITHER INTENTIONALLY OR NOT TOUCH YOU IN AREAS YOU DIDN'T WANT?

>> IN THAT PARTICULAR WORK, THERE WERE PEOPLE SO INTIMIDATED, THEY WERE GOING VERY CLOSE.

THEY WOULD TRY TO AVOID EYE CONTACT, AND THEY WOULD SAY EXCUSE ME IN ITALIAN, WHICH IS BESIDE THE POINT.

WE CLEARED THE SITUATION.

THERE IS ONE ONLY MAN WHO HAD A SMALL CAMERA, AND JUST PASSED VERY FAST AND TOOK PHOTO OF OUR GENITALS.

THAT IS VERY WEIRD.

BUT HERE IS A QUESTION, MARINA.

YOU SAY IN THE INTERVENING YEARS, YOU HAVE HAD TO PROVIDE ALTERNATIVE SPACES FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE UNCOMFORTABLE TO EXPERIENCE THAT CLOSE INTIMACY.

A, IS THAT A CENSORSHIP?

AND B, SELF-CENSORSHIP, AND B, HOW DO YOU REACT TO SOCIETY'S HOW CAN SHE DO THAT?

THIS IS JUST SO NAKED.

THIS IS TOO REVEALING, ET CETERA?

>> IF I WILL READ THE CRITICISM FROM THE '70s, I WOULD NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE.

I WAS COMPLETELY CRUCIFIED.

MY MOTHER AND FATHER, FIRST OF ALL, WHEN I WAS DOING STUFF LIKE COMMON STAR ON THE SQUARE IN BELGRADE, THERE WAS A QUESTION COMMUNIST ARTISTS WHAT THE HELL EDUCATION I HAD.

PROFESSORS WAS THINKING THAT I SHOULD BE PUT IN MENTAL HOSPITAL.

IT WAS EVERYBODY WAS AGAINST IT.

I HAD TO BELIEVE SO MUCH OF THIS KIND OF FORM OF ART UNTIL NOW THAT ACTUALLY THIS FORM ART REALLY I THINK IT'S INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE IT'S MATERIAL.

IT'S TIME-BASED.

YOU HAVE TO BE THERE TO WATCH IT, TO SEE IT.

AND IT'S HIGHLY, HIGHLY EMOTIONAL.

AND THE ONLY WAY I CAN DO IT.

>> WHAT ARE YOU SAYING HERE, MARINA?

THIS IS QUITE -- >> I MADE THE SKELETON EXACTLY MY SIZE.

I'M LYING IN SKELETON.

I JUST WANT TO KNOW, HOW IT FEEL.

SUFI SAID "LIFE IS A DREAM THAT IS WAKING UP."

I JUST WANT TO KNOW THE MOMENT.

THE MOMENT I WANT TO DIE IS WITHOUT FEAR, WITHOUT ANGER, AND CONSCIOUSLY.

THREE THINGS.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU NEED TO TRAIN DURING THE LIFE.

IT DOESN'T COME JUST LIKE THAT.

>> DEATH IS A HUGE PART OF YOUR LIFE IN YOUR WORK.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU'RE ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT DEATH.

>> ALL THE TIME.

>> HOW DO YOU STAY HAPPY AND POSITIVE?

>> I'M HILARIOUS IN REAL LIFE.

I'M HONESTLY READY TO STAND UP COMEDY.

HAVE I SO MUCH.

I NEED TO LOVE.

BECAUSE WORK IS SO HAIRY.

>> AND THIS HERE IS DRAMATIC.

WHAT CAUSED YOU TO -- THIS IS YOUR REFLECTION ON THE BALKAN WARS.

AND I COVERED THE BOSNIA WAR.

>> YEAH, YOU CAN'T CLEAN THE BLOOD.

AND I'M CLEANING BLOOD, WHICH IS AMERICAN, BUT ALSO CREATE A METAPHOR, THAT THIS CAN BE ANY WAR, ANYWHERE.

HERE WHEN WE OFFERED THE SHOT, PALESTINIANS, ISRAELIANS, UKRAINIAN, RUSSIAN, THEY'RE ALL HERE IN THIS ROOM.

>> A AND THE DRAMA OF THE PERFORMANCE WAS YOU SITTING ON THESE BONES, WHICH ARE REAL COW BONES, REAL MEAT, REAL BLOOD.

>> REAL BLOOD.

SIX DAYS I DO THIS, SIX HOURS A DAY, COUNTING.

>> HOW DID THAT AFFECT YOU SPIRITUALLY?

>> IT'S, YOU KNOW, I REALLY AM VERY PROUD OF THIS PIECE, BECAUSE I KNOW THIS PIECE COULD BE FOREVER.

IT WAS MY WAR THAT I WAS SHOWING ABOUT BALKAN.

BUT AFTER THAT, YOU CAN BE USED ANYWHERE.

THIS IS SO IMPORTANT.

THAT ARTISTS SHOULD NOT CREATE SOMETHING WHICH IS TEMPORARY.

YOU TO CREATE SOMETHING THAT HAS POSITION TO ANY WAR, ANY TIME, ANY PLACE.

>> SO WE'RE SITTING IN THIS ROOM, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE IT HAS ALMOST YOUR SIGNATURE PIECE OF THE CHINESE -- THE GREAT WALL IN CHINA.

AND IT WAS DESIGNED FOR YOU AND YOUR LOVER ULE TO WALK FROM EACH END.

THAT'S A TOTAL OF 5,000 PLUS KILOMETERS.

YOU WATCHED 2,500 EACH.

IT TOOK YOU WHAT, THREE MONTHS OR SO TO WALK.

WHAT WERE YOU MEANT TO DO WHEN YOU MET?

AND WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY DO?

>> SO THIS PROJECT START AFTER WE LEAVE CENTRAL AUSTRALIA ONE YEAR IN DESERT.

AND WE REALIZED THE TIME THE ASTRONAUTS, WHEN THEY LAND ON THE MOON SAID THAT ONLY TWO VISIBLE BUILDINGS MADE BY HUMAN HANDS IS THE PYRAMIDS AND GREAT WALL OF CHINA.

AND WE HAD IDEA AT THAT TIME IN THE DESERT, LET'S WALK GREAT WALL OF CHINA.

IN EIGHT YEARS WE WAS WRITING TO CHINA'S GOVERNMENT LETTERS.

AND EIGHT YEARS WE WERE GETTING VERY FRIENDLY ANSWER, BUT WE DIDN'T WALK ANYWHERE.

THE IDEA WAS THIS WALK, AND WE MEET IN THE MIDDLE AND WE MARRIED.

AND EIGHT YEARS CHINESE NOT ANSWER.

SO WE FINALLY FOUND ONE MAN WHO IS SPECIALIST ON CHINA POLITICS, AND WE SHOW HIM ALL THESE LETTERS.

AND HE START LAUGHING.

WHAT IS SO FUNNY?

CHINESE HAVE 17 WAYS TO SAY NO.

AND IN THIS EIGHT YEARS, THEY EXERCISED ALL 70 YEARS.

SO WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE GOVERNMENT.

THE DUTCH GOVERNMENT AND THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT.

AND FINALLY, AFTER EIGHT YEARS, WE GOT PERMISSION TO WALK THE GREAT WALL OF CHINA.

BUT AT THAT TIME, OUR RELATION WAS ENDING.

BUT AS WE NEVER GIVE UP ANYTHING, WE SAY OKAY.

NOW WE'RE GOING TO WALK.

INSTEAD OF MARRY, WE'RE GOING SAY GOODBYE.

AND ONE OF OUR FRIENDS, AMERICAN WHY DON'T YOU USE PHONE CALL?

HE MISSED THE WHOLE POINT.

>> I MEAN, SERIOUSLY, IT MUST HAVE BEEN VERY PAINFUL, NO, WHEN YOU FINALLY MET AFTER ALL THOSE YEARS OF WORK AFTER SOMETHING THAT WAS MEANT TO BE A CELEBRATION OF YOUR LOVE AND YOUR UNITY ACTUALLY WAS THE DISSOLUTION.

WAS IT EMOTIONAL?

DID YOU CRY?

>> IT WAS INCREDIBLY EMOTIONAL.

FIRST EMOTIONAL FOR FEW REASONS.

BEFORE, IF YOU LOSE LOVE OF YOUR LIFE, YOU STILL GO BACK ON YOUR OWN WORK.

BUT AT THIS TIME I WAS 40 EXACTLY.

AND ALL THE WORK FOR TURKEY WAS SIGNED TWO NAMES.

SO BOTH OF US DIDN'T HAVE ANY MORE OF OUR OWN WORK.

SO FOR ME WAS JUST I LOST A LOT, BUT ALSO LOST THE WORK THERE WAS NOWHERE TO COME BACK.

AND THIS WAS INCREDIBLE PRESSING MOMENT OF MY LIFE.

>> AND THEN A FEW YEARS LATER, YOU WENT BACK TO AN AMAZING PERFORMANCE THAT WENT VIRAL AROUND THE WORLD.

THE ARTIST IS PRESENT.

IT FIRST SHOWED AT THE MUSEUM OF MODERN ART IN NEW YORK, I THINK.

AND WHAT HAPPENED?

BECAUSE OF SOMETHING LIKE 1500 PEOPLE CAME AND SAT NEXT TO YOU AND TRIED TO STARE YOU OUT.

BUT ON ONE OCCASION, YOUR FORMER LOVER CAME.

>> YES.

ACTUALLY I INVITE HIM AS THE GUEST OF HONOR IN THAT MOMENT WITH ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA HE IS EVER GOING TO SIT WITH ME.

THIS WAS NOT IN THE QUESTION.

SO WHEN HE CAME AND JUST APPEAR IN FRONT OF ME, YOU KNOW, I NEVER BREAK THE RULES.

LIKE I'M A SOLDIER.

I'M WARRIOR.

I DO THINGS ABSOLUTELY AS I DECIDE.

THIS WAS THE ONLY TIME I BROKE THE RULE.

BECAUSE IN THE FRONT OF ME WAS A MAN I LOVED SO MUCH.

AND WAS IN FRONT OF ME SOMEBODY -- IT WAS NOT THE PUBLIC.

IT WAS LIFE ITSELF.

SO I PUT MY HAND ON THE TABLE TO TOUCH HIM AND JUST CRY.

IT WAS ONE OF THESE MOMENTS THAT IT WAS SO INTENSE.

[ APPLAUSE ] AND SO INTERESTING HOW THE YOUNG PEOPLE BECOME THE KIND OF VITAL EVERYWHERE, BECAUSE PEOPLE REALIZE REAL EMOTIONS.

I HAVE A FLASH BACK OF 12 YEARS, ALL THE GOODS, ALL THE AMBASSADOR.

IT WAS NOT EASY.

IT WAS HELL.

IT WAS WONDERFUL.

IT WAS PASSIONATE.

IT WAS ALL AT ONCE.

>> AND IT WAS RULE THAT YOU BROKE, BECAUSE I WAS ONE OF THEM WHO CAME AND SAT IN FRONT YOU HAVE.

AND I KNOW PEOPLE TRIED TO MAKE YOU LAUGH, TRIED TO MAKE YOU BREAK YOUR GAZE, TRIED TO MAKE YOU NOT BE AS DISCIPLINED AS YOU WERE.

AND I WAS STAGGERLED BY HOW PASSIVE AND UNEMOTIONAL.

BUT YOUR EYES TALKED.

SO IT WAS SOMETHING FOR YOU TO BREAK THAT RULE.

>> YEAH.

THAT WAS REALLY HIGH EMOTIONS.

BUT ALSO, I HEARD THAT PEOPLE SITTING IN FRONT OF ME, BECAUSE I COULD SEE SOLITUDE.

I COULD SEE PAIN.

I COULD SEE UNHAPPINESS.

I COULD SEE HAPPINESS.

I COULD SEE SO MANY DIFFERENT EMOTIONS, WHICH IS INTERESTING ABOUT THE SITTING.

JUST THAT MOMENT AND WHY SO SIMPLE IS WHEN YOU'RE WAITING IN THE LINE FOR A LONG TIME, FINALLY YOU COME AND SIT IN THE FRONT OF ME.

AND YOU ARE WATCHED BY THE PEOPLE WAITING.

YOU'RE WATCHED BY CAMERAS.

PHOTOGRAPHER, AND YOU'RE WATCHED BY ME.

BASICALLY, YOU'RE NOWHERE TO ESCAPE EXCEPT INTO YOURSELF.

WITH THAT HAPPEN, YOU KIND OF SHOW ME THE TRUE SELF, AND I COULD SEE IT, AND YOU COULD SEE YOURSELF.

AND THEN ALL THE PEOPLE START CRYING.

WE HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE CRYING.

IT WAS REALLY VERY EMOTIONAL MOMENT.

AND THE CREATOR OF THE SHOW, HE SAID TO ME, WHEN I GIVE HIM THE IDEA, THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

NOBODY GOING TO SIT ON THIS CHAIR BECAUSE NOBODY HAVE TIME.

THIS CHAIR WILL BE ALWAYS EMPTY.

THE CHAIR WAS NEVER EMPTY.

>> AND THERE WERE LINES AROUND THE BLOCK.

>> AND PEOPLE SLEEPING OUTSIDE LAST WEEK.

IT WAS REALLY SOMETHING TO REMEMBER.

>> SO IF THAT WAS KIND OF GENTLE AND COMMUNICATIVE, ONE OF YOUR EXHIBITIONS WHICH IS HERE NOW IS A TABLE OF 72 OBJECTS THAT YOU SAY DO WHAT YOU WILL WITH THESE OBJECTS, I AM THE TOOL.

DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO ME.

TELL ME HOW THAT PLAYED OUT?

BECAUSE IT TURNED OUT PRETTY VIOLENT AT ONE POINT.

>> BUT, YOU KNOW, I WAS 23 YEARS OLD.

I WAS SO ANGRY.

I WAS SO ANGRY ON THE PUBLIC, NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT PERFORMANCE ART IS.

AND WHATEVER I WAS DOING, I WAS ALWAYS JUDGED.

AND I SAY OKAY, WHAT IF I DON'T DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?

I AM THE TOOL.

I AM THERE WITH YOU.

AND YOU DO STUFF.

I'M NOT DOING IT.

IT WAS INCREDIBLE TO SEE THAT.

BECAUSE IN NAPLES, FOR PLEASURE AND VIOLENCE, AND PISTOL, IT WAS INCREDIBLE.

IN THE FIRST, IT WAS SIX HOURS.

THE FIRST ONE TWO HOURS NOTHING REALLY HAPPENED.

THEN THEY GIVE ME ROLES.

THEN THEY CUT MY SHIRT.

THEN THEY PUT RAINS ON ROWS ON MY BODY.

AND THEN THE SCARF AND THEY SUCK BLOOD ON MY NECK.

AND THEN THEY CARRY ME AROUND.

THERE WAS SO MUCH -- THE VIOLENCE.

VERY INTERESTING THING HAPPENED.

WOMEN DIDN'T DO ANYTHING.

WOMEN TOLD MEN WHAT TO DO, AND WOMAN TOOK, WHEN I WAS CRYING, THEY WOULD TAKE HANDKERCHIEF AND WASH MY FACE OF THE TEARS.

>> HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THAT?

>> I DON'T.

I HAVE NO -- I'M SHOCKED.

THIS WAS HAPPENING.

AND THEN THE MOMENT OF THE SIX HOURS, THE GALLERY SAY TO ME, I AM FINISHED, BECAUSE I WAS LIKE ABSOLUTELY STATUE, PUT YOUR HEAD LIKE THIS AND STAY LIKE THIS.

WHATEVER YOU DO, I AM IN THIS POSITION.

AFTER THE SIX HOURS, HE SAY IT'S OVER.

I WAS FULL OF BLOOD, WATER, HALF NAKED.

I WAS WALKING TOWARDS THE PUBLIC AS ME.

THEY RAN AWAY, ALL OF THEM.

AND THEN I CAME TO THE HOTEL, AND I LOOKED MYSELF IN THE MIRROR, AND I WAS JUST PIECE OF WHITE HAIR.

>> REALLY?

>> YOUR HAIR TURNED WHITE IN ONE NIGHT?

ONE STREAK?

>> AFTER THIS PIECE.

THIS WAS A PIECE THAT I REALIZED THAT I REALLY COULD BE KILLED.

>> AND SOMEBODY DID POINT A LOADED GUN AT YOU.

>> YES.

AND THEN ANOTHER PERSON CAME AND TOOK THE GUN TO THE WINDOW.

THERE WAS SO MUCH VIOLENCE.

>> AT WHAT POINT DO THE GUARDS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY?

MARINA YOU COULD HAVE BEEN KILLED.

>> I KNOW.

>> SOMEBODY COULD HAVE NOT JUST NICKED YOUR NECK.

THEY COULD HAVE GOT YOUR JUGULAR.

>> BUT NOW WE TALK ABOUT PERFORMANCE.

WHEN YOU GO IN TO STATE PERFORMANCE, YOU'RE NOT YOU.

YOU'RE NOT LITTLE MARINA WHO CAN TAKING ALL HELL CAN HAPPEN.

YOU'RE SUPER MARINA.

YOU'RE THE HIGHER FORM OF YOURSELF.

AND THEN EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

>> IT'S ALMOST AN OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE.

ANOTHER PERFORMANCE THAT YOU DID WITH ULE WAS SO DRAMATIC AS WELL.

AND YOU EXPLAINED TO ME WHAT IT'S CALLED.

BUT ESSENTIALLY, YOU'RE BOTH STANDING, LEANING.

HE'S GOT THE ARROW.

YOU'VE GOT THE BOW.

AND ONE FALSE MOVE COULD HAVE KILLED YOU.

WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT?

>> THIS WAS ALL ABOUT TRUST.

WE'RE BORN THE SAME DAY, ULE AND ME, NOVEMBER.

WE'RE BOTH SAGITTARIUS.

THE BOW AND ARROW IS A SYMBOL OF SAGITTARIUS.

AND WE DECIDED TO DO THIS THING.

AND THE ONE POINT IN ONE INTERVIEW WHERE WE SPLIT A LONG TIME AGO, THEY ASK ULLE WHY THE ARROW IS FACING HER AND NOT YOU.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAY?

HE SAID THIS IS MY HEART TOO.

>> HAD HE JUST FLINCHED A LITTLE BIT AND LOST HIS GRIP, THE ARROW WOULD HAVE GONE INTO YOUR HEART, OR SOMEWHERE.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

BUT GENERALLY, OUR PERFORMANCES WERE NOT VERY LONG.

THIS WAS THE SHORTEST PERFORMANCE IN MY LIFE.

IT'S 4:20.

IT WAS A LIFETIME.

A LIFETIME.

>> WERE YOU SCARED?

>> NOT WHEN I'M DOING IT.

EVERYTHING -- MY FEAR IS ALWAYS BEFORE.

BEFORE I GET INTO THE FRONT OF THE PUBLIC.

AFTER, NO.

>> IS THIS ABOUT YOU AND YOUR FEARS AND YOUR EXTREMES OF BOUNDARIES, OR IS IT ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO COMMUNICATE WITH OTHER PEOPLE?

WHAT IS YOUR ABSOLUTE MOTIVATION BEYOND TAKING THINGS THAT SCARE YOU SO MUCH AND TRYING TO CONQUER IT?

>> TO ME, THE MOST IMPORTANT IS REALLY TO BE EXAMPLE THAT YOU CAN OVERCOME THE FEAR OF PAIN, THE FEAR OF DYING, THE FEAR OF SUFFERING.

ESPECIALLY EMOTIONAL SUFFERING.

THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY OVERCOME.

AND THEN SHOWING IN MY OWN EXAMPLE.

AND ALSO, NOT TO BE AFRAID OF FAILURE.

YOU CAN FAIL.

EVERYTHING CAN GO WRONG.

BUT FAILURES ARE SO IMPORTANT, BECAUSE FAILURES IS A MAIN LEARNING MATERIAL.

YOU FAIL, YOU STAND UP AND DO IT AGAIN.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I NEED TO SHOW TO THE AUDIENCE IS ALL ABOUT HOW TO LEARN TO LIFT SPIRITS UP.

IT'S SO EASY TO PICK SPIRIT UP.

IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO PUT IT DOWN.

YOU KNOW, I WAS VERY ACTUALLY -- IT'S COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SUBJECT.

DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR, WHEN EVERYBODY WAS PAINTING ATROCITIES AND DIFFICULTIES OF THE WAR AND A FRIGHTENING SITUATION, YOU KNOW MATISSE, HE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO PAINT FLOWERS THE ENTIRE FOUR YEARS OF THE WAR.

AND I START UNDERSTANDING ONLY NOW WITH MY 78 YEARS OLD, WHY IS THAT.

BECAUSE YOU NEED TO LIFT THE SPIRIT OF HUMANITY.

YOU DON'T NEED TO REFLECT WHAT IS ALREADY IN FRONT OF YOU.

>> WELL, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD PLACE TO END, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW THERE IS A LOT OF WAR, A LOT OF DISCORD, A LOT OF INABILITY TO COMMUNICATE.

IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT THANK YOU, MARINA ABRAMOVICH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THE SPIRIT OF HUMANITY INDEED.

>>> AND NOW, NEWS TODAY FROM CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS WHERE HARVARD'S HIGHEST GOVERNING BODY ANNOUNCED THAT CLAUDINE GAY WILL REMAIN AS PRESIDENT.

THIS AFTER AN UPROAR ABOUT THE HANDLING OF ANTISEMITISM ON CAMPUS AND CONTROVERSIAL TESTIMONY ON THE MATTER IN FRONT OF CONGRESS.

RABBI DAVID WOLPE WAS ON HARVARD'S ANTISEMITISM GROUP BUT RESIGNED OVER WHAT HE SAYS IS THE UNIVERSITY'S FAILURE TO TAKE ITS ADVICE.

HERE IS RABBI TALKING TO HARI SRINIVASAN ABOUT THAT DECISION.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

BEFORE WE GET TO THE CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY, I WANT TO BACK UP A SECOND HERE.

AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE COMMITTEE THAT HARVARD FORMED THAT YOU WERE A MEMBER OF?

>> AFTER OCTOBER 7th, THE PRESIDENT REALIZED ONCE LETTERS HAD COME OUT AND PROTESTS HAD BEEN EXPLODING ALL OVER CAMPUS THAT WE HAD IN HER OWN WORDS A PROBLEM WITH ANTISEMITISM AT HARVARD.

AND SO SHE CALLED ME, AND A COUPLE OF OTHER PEOPLE AND SAID WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO BE ON A COMMITTEE TO HELP US ADDRESS THIS.

AND OF COURSE I SAID YES.

AND SO DID A NUMBER OF OTHER FACULTY AND ALUMNI.

AND WE WERE SUPPOSED TO ADVISE THE PRESIDENT ON HOW TO TACKLE THIS PROJECT.

>> GOT IT.

SO WHAT HAS BEEN THE WORK OF THE COMMITTEE SO FAR?

HAVE YOU MET?

HAVE YOU MADE PROGRESS TOWARDS THINGS?

>> WELL WE MET MANY TIMES.

WE MET TWICE A WEEK.

OUR -- IN ADVANCE, IT WAS SAID THAT OUR DELIBERATIONS WERE GOING TO BE CONFIDENTIAL.

BUT I CAN CERTAINLY SAY WE TENDERED A LOT OF ADVICE.

>> OKAY.

AND DID YOU FEEL THAT THE COMMITTEE WAS MAKING PROGRESS TOWARDS THE GOALS?

>> IF I HAD FELT THAT WE WERE MAKING PROGRESS TOWARDS THE GOALS, I THINK I WOULD HAVE STAYED ON THE COMMITTEE.

BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE SITUATION WAS GETTING PROGRESSIVELY WORSE, AND MANY OF THE THINGS THAT I INDIVIDUALLY CERTAINLY FELT NEEDED TO HAPPEN ALMOST IMMEDIATELY DIDN'T HAPPEN.

>> OKAY.

SO NOW LET'S KIND OF GET OUR AUDIENCE UP TO SPEED OF WHAT HAPPENED THIS PAST WEEK.

AND THE PRESIDENTS OF HARVARD, M.I.T., AND U PENN ALL TESTIFIED IN FRONT OF CONGRESS.

AND THEY WERE ASKED ELISE STEFANIK IF CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS VIOLATED THE SCHOOL'S CODE OF CONDUCT.

EACH OF THE THREE GAVE VERY CAREFULLY WORDED ANSWERS.

WHAT WAS YOUR CONCERN ABOUT THAT?

>> MY CONCERN WAS ACTUALLY EVEN LESS THE CONTENT OF THE ANSWER THAN THE TONE OF THE ANSWER.

THAT IS, I WAS HOPING FOR SOME INDIGNATION, FOR SOME I'M PRESIDENT OF A UNIVERSITY, AND I CAN'T STAND THAT THERE IS ANTISEMITISM AT MY UNIVERSITY, AND I'M GOING TO DO EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY CAN TO ADDRESS IT, BECAUSE THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE AND WRONG.

AND INSTEAD, YOU GOT A SORT OF, YOU KNOW, A PARADE OF LEGALESE AND EQUIVOCATION AND QUALIFICATION.

AND I WANTED VISION.

>> LOOK, I KNOW YOU'RE A RABBI, AND YOU DEAL WITH THE MATTERS OF THE SOUL A LOT MORE THAN EVERYONE ELSE, BUT DO YOU THINK THIS IS A CORE OF THESE THREE PRESIDENTS OR, LOOK, WERE THEY PREPPED BY THEIR LAWYERS TO MIND THEIR P'S AND Q'S AND NOT SAY SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE USED AGAINST THEM LATER AND IRONICALLY, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENED?

>> SO FIRST OF ALL, MY INTERACTIONS WITH CLAUDINE GAY, I LIKE HER.

I THINK SHE IS VERY THOUGHTFUL AND GOOD AND KIND.

I'VE ALWAYS HAD VERY GOOD INTERACTIONS WITH HER.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU LEARN AS A RABBI IT'S VERY EASY TO LEAP TO CONCLUSIONS ABOUT PEOPLE'S SOULS, AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, JUST LOOK ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

PEOPLE ARE DOING IT ALL THE TIME SAYING THIS PERSON'S LIKE THIS AND THAT PERSON IS LIKE THAT.

I THINK CERTAINLY THE LEGAL ADVICE PLAYED A ROLE.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT SELF CONCEPTION MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT.

IF YOU THINK OF YOURSELF AS I AM LEADING THIS GREAT INSTITUTION, AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY ABOUT IT, I HAVE TO TAKE THIS STAND BECAUSE I AM THE LEADER OF THIS GREAT INSTITUTION.

MAYBE THAT PUTS A LITTLE ROCKET FUEL UNDER YOUR RHETORIC.

AND WE DIDN'T SEE THAT.

>> THIS WEEKEND, THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA PRESIDENT LIZ MAGILL RESIGNED.

SHE ED?

A VIDEO THAT SHE POSTED, I WANT TO QUOTE HERE, IN THAT MOMENT, I WAS FOCUSED ON OUR UNIVERSITY'S LONG-STANDING POLICIES ALIGNED WITH THE U.S. CONSTITUTION WHICH SAY THAT SPEECH ALONE IS NOT PUNISHABLE.

SHE WENT ON THE SAY, "I WAS NOT FOCUSED ON, BUT I SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE IRREFUTABLE FACT THAT A CALL FOR GENOCIDE OF JEWISH PEOPLE IS A CALL FOR SOME OF THE MOST TERRIBLE VIOLENCE HUMAN BEINGS CAN PERPETUATE."

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

I THINK THAT IT IS -- WHEN YOU CREATE A CLIMATE OF ANGER AND INTIMIDATION ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS, YOU CAN'T DO WHAT CAMPUSES ARE INTENDED TO DO, WHICH IS TO LEARN AND TO TEACH.

AND THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE FOCUS.

AND I THINK WHAT YOU HEAR IN HER WORDS IS THAT SHE WAS WORRIED THAT THERE WOULD BE SOME STEPPING OVER SOME KIND OF IMAGINED LEGAL BOUNDARY BACK WHEN WHAT SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN WORRIED ABOUT WAS THE STEPPING OVER OF THE MORAL BOUNDARY.

>> YEAH.

CLAUDINE GAY ALSO MADE A STATEMENT.

SHE ALSO APOLOGIZED.

IN HER WORDS, "LET ME BE CLEAR, CALLS FOR VIOLENCE OR GENOCIDE AGAINST THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OR ANY RELIGIOUS OR ETHNIC GROUP ARE VILE.

THEY HAVE NO PLACE AT HARVARD.

AND THOSE WHO THREATEN OUR JEWISH STUDENTS WILL BE HELD TO ACCOUNT."

LET'S TALK A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR RESIGNATION.

SO THESE EVENTS AS WE'VE SAID THEM, THERE HAS BEEN A COMMITTEE FOR ANTISEMITISM.

YOU WERE INVITED ON BOARD THIS TESTIMONY HAPPENS IN FRONT OF CONGRESS.

AND THEN YOU RESIGN.

HOW COME?

>> BECAUSE THE TESTIMONY REINFORCED THE SENSE THAT I ALREADY HAD THAT IN FACT OUR COUNCIL WAS NOT BEING HELPFUL, WAS NOT ADVANCING THE CAUSE THAT I WANTED TO ADVANCE.

AND SO IT SEEMED TO ME ACTUALLY EASIER IN SOME WAYS TO BE A SPOKESPERSON OUTSIDE OF THERE.

STUDENTS WERE COMING TO ME AND SAYING NOT ONLY STUDENTS, BUT ALSO MEMBERS OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, WHY ARE YOU ON THIS PANEL?

IT GIVES IT LEGITIMACY WHEN NOTHING IS HAPPENING.

AND I HEARD THAT, AND I THOUGHT THERE WAS A LOT OF FORCE TO THAT CRITIQUE.

AND AT A CERTAIN POINT, I THOUGHT I CAN'T ASSOCIATE MYSELF WITH A PANEL THAT GIVES ME A LOT OF ACCOUNTABILITY AND NO AUTHORITY.

>> SO YOU FELT THAT BEING ON THE COMMITTEE WAS -- LIKE YOU COULD NOT ACTIVATE THE CHANGE THAT YOU WANTED TO SEE, BEING PART OF THE STRUCTURE.

THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF PEOPLE SAYING HEY, LOOK, YOU KIND OF GAVE UP THE KEYS TO BE ABLE TO EFFECT CHANGE FROM THE INSIDE.

>> I REALLY THINK MY EXPERIENCE SINCE LEAVING, MY VOICE HAS BEEN AMPLIFIED.

IT ISN'T REDUCED.

I'M STILL IN TOUCH WITH THE MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE AND WITH THE ADMINISTRATION.

AND AS I SAID, WITH FACULTY, STUDENTS, ALUMNI, DONORS, I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS A -- THIS IS A CRITICAL INSTITUTION IN AMERICAN LIFE AND IN WORLD LIFE.

AND ANYTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO TRY TO SAVE OUR KEY CAMPUSES AND MAKE THEM HOMES OF IDEOLOGICAL DIVERSITY AND REAL DISCUSSION AND DEEP LEARNING IS A NOBLE AND EVEN SACRED EFFORT.

>> I WANT TO GO THROUGH PARTS OF YOUR RESIGNATION STATEMENT HERE TOO.

YOU SAID "PART OF THE PROBLEM IS A SIMPLE HERD MENTALITY, PEOPLE SCREAMING SLOGANS WHOSE MEANING AND IMPLICATION THEY KNOW NOTHING OF, OR NOT WISHING TO BE DISLIKED BY TAKING AN UNPOPULAR POSITION.

SOME OF IT IS THE DESIRE TO ACHIEVE SOCIAL STATUS BY BEING THE SOLE OR GREATEST VICTIM.

SOME OF IT IS SIMPLE OLD-FASHIONED JEW HATRED, AND THAT UGLY ARROW IN THE QUIVER OF DARK HEARTS FOR MILLENNIA."

FOR MOST PEOPLE, IT'S THAT LAST LINE THAT CONSTITUTES ANTISEMITISM.

BUT FOR YOU, THE OTHER REASONS?

KIND OF EXPLAIN THOSE.

ARE THEY JUST AS BAD?

HOW DID WE GET THERE?

>> THEY'RE NOT JUST AS BAD, BUT THEIR EFFECTS CAN BE JUST AS TOXIC.

SO IF YOU HAVE PEOPLE SCREAMING FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, AND EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT RIVER AND WHAT SEA, WHICH WE FOUND AGAIN AND AGAIN WHEN YOU ASK THEM, THEY SAY WAIT, THE NILE?

I DON'T KNOW.

BUT NONETHELESS, THE EFFECT ON THE JEWISH STUDENTS IS THE SAME.

BECAUSE OF THOSE 200 STUDENTS MASKED ON THE STEPS OF WAGNER LIBRARY ARE "FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA", YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IS EXPRESSING GENUINE HATE AND WHO CAME ALONG BECAUSE THEIR ROOMMATE SAID COME, IT WILL BE FUN.

SO THE MOTIVATION MAY BE LESS POISONOUS, BUT THE EFFECT CAN BE THE SAME.

>> ANOTHER PART OF YOUR STATEMENT, YOU SAID "IDEOLOGY THAT GRIPS FAR TOO MANY OF THE STUDENTS AND FACULTY, THE IDEOLOGY THAT WORKS ONLY ALONG AXISES OF OPPRESSION PLACES JEWISHS AS OPPRESSORS.

IGNORING JEWISH SUFFERING IS BELITTLING.

UNSPEAKABLE ATROCITIES IS A VAST AND CONTINUING CATASTROPHE.

DENYING ISRAEL THE SELF-DETERMINATION AS A JEWISH NATION UNCORDED UNTHINKINGLY TO OTHERS IS ENDEMIC AND EVIL.

I UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT OF THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT.

AND THE CONCERNS THAT JEWISH PEOPLE HAVE.

IS THERE A PLACE FOR A LEGITIMATE CRITICISM OF THE ACTIONS OF A COUNTRY, ISRAEL, WITHOUT A NEGATION OF ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST OR THE JEWISH PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO EXIST?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I CRITICIZE ISRAEL.

I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO DOESN'T CRITICIZE ISRAEL.

BUT EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO LOVE ISRAEL, ISRAELIS ARE BRUTAL IN THEIR CRITICISM OF ISRAEL.

WE SAW HUNDREDS OF ISRAELIS IN THE STREETS PROTESTING BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, CRITICIZING ISRAEL.

BUT HERE'S WHAT I HAVEN'T HEARD.

I HEAR PEOPLE CRITICIZING RUSSIA.

I HEAR NO ONE SAY RUSSIA SHOULDN'T EXIST.

I HEAR PEOPLE CRITICIZE GERMANY AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR WHEN THE WORST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY.

NOBODY SAID THERE SHOULDN'T BE A GERMANY ANYMORE.

THAT IS RESERVED SOLELY FOR THE ONE JEWISH STATE IN THE WORLD.

THERE ARE 50 MUSLIM STATES.

I'VE NEVER HEARD SOMEONE SAY ONE OF THOSE MUSLIM STATES SHOULDN'T EXIST.

ONLY THE JEWISH STATE SHOULDN'T EXIST.

AND THAT YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF WHY IS IT THAT THAT IS THE ONLY STATE THAT RECEIVES THAT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND IF IT ISN'T ANTISEMITISM, THEN IT CONFOUNDS ME WHAT IT COULD POSSIBLY BE.

>> WHAT IT IS ABOUT OUR CLIMATE TODAY THAT HAS CREATED THIS KIND OF CAMPUS CULTURE, I GUESS, WHERE, YOU KNOW, I SPOKE TO A STUDENT THAT WAS -- IS ATTENDING COLUMBIA, AND SHE SAID SHE'S NEVER FELT SO CONSTRAINED ABOUT HER VIEWS IN HER ENTIRE ACADEMIC LIFE.

IF SHE SAYS, FOR EXAMPLE, SHE IS FOR A CEASEFIRE, SOMETHING THAT USED TO BE AN INNOCUOUS PHRASE, NOW SHE GETS CALLED OUT FOR SAYING SHE IS SUPPORTING HAMAS.

NO.

I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO STOP FIGHTING.

THAT SO CRAZY?

BUT I DON'T FEEL LIKE I CAN SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT BECAUSE OF SUCH A CHARGED ENVIRONMENT RIGHT NOW WHERE EVERYTHING I SAY CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST ME.

>> I THINK AT THIS MOMENT, TENSIONS ARE SO HIGH THAT IT IS REALLY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE GENUINE DIALOGUE ABOUT THAT.

I SPOKE YESTERDAY AT A SYNAGOGUE, AND SOMEONE STOOD UP AND MADE A LONG AND ELOQUENT PLEA ABOUT WHY HE THOUGHT A CEASEFIRE WAS JUSTIFIED.

I SAID TO HIM, I APPRECIATE YOUR POINT OF VIEW AND I THINK IT COMES FROM A HUMANISTIC PLACE, I REALLY DO.

AND I WANT TO TELL YOU WHY IT IS THAT I DISAGREE WITH YOU.

AND THAT KIND OF EXCHANGE IS THE WAY ADULTS SPEAK TO EACH OTHER.

AND WE'RE TRYING TO BRING OUR STUDENTS TO DO THE SAME.

BUT IT'S NOT ALWAYS EASY WHEN, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LINE UP INTO TEAMS.

LOOK, THIS IS NOT -- BY THE WAY, THIS IS NOT UNIQUE TO COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

WHEN I WAS A KID, IF YOU ASKED PEOPLE, WOULD YOU MARRY SOMEONE OF ANOTHER RACE, MOST PEOPLE SAID NO.

AND IF YOU ASKED WOULD YOU MARRY SOMEONE OF ANOTHER POLITICAL PARTY, MOST PEOPLE SAID YES.

NOW IT'S EXACTLY REVERSED.

IF YOU ASKED WOULD YOU MARRY SOMEONE OF ANOTHER RACE, MOST PEOPLE WOULD SAY YES.

OF ANOTHER POLITICAL PARTY, MOST PEOPLE WOULD SAY NO.

WHICH TELLS YOU TWO THINGS.

ONE IS PROGRESS CAN BE MADE IN OUR WORLD, WHICH IS OPTIMISTIC.

AND THE SECOND IS THAT THE POLARIZATION IS VERY BAD RIGHT NOW.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE REALLY, REALLY HAVE TO WORK ON HOW TO HAVE DIALOGUE ACROSS VIEWS.

>> SO ONE OF THE CONCERNS THAT CAME OUT FROM THAT TESTIMONY THAT WAS DELIVERED BY THE COLLEGE PRESIDENTS WAS ARE WE ESSENTIALLY ASKING COLLEGES IN SOME WAY TO CODIFY BOUNDARIES ON SPEECH?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT, AGAIN, IT'S NOT ABOUT THE SPEECH IN PARTICULAR.

IT'S ABOUT CREATING A CLIMATE OF INTIMIDATION AND FEAR WHICH SOME OF THE SPEECH IS DESIGNED TO DO.

IT'S ABOUT BULLYING AND HARASSMENT, NOT ABOUT EXPRESSION OF OPINION.

AND WHEN YOU SCREAM AT STUDENTS WHO ARE WALKING THEIR WAY INTO THE LIBRARY "BABY KILLER" THAT'S NOT A FUNCTION OF OPINION EXPRESSION.

IT'S A FUNCTION OF SEEKING TO INTIMIDATE AND HARASS WITH SPEECH.

AND THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF BOUNDARIES THAT I THINK WE'RE USED TO ACTUALLY IN NORMAL EVERYDAY DISCOURSE, AND UNIVERSITIES DO HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH THAT.

>> SO WE HAVE SOME APOLOGIES FROM THESE CAMPUS PRESIDENTS, BUT WHAT CAN AND WHAT SHOULD CAMPUSES BE WORKING ON TO CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU CAN HAVE THAT INTELLECTUAL DEBATE WITHOUT TAKING SPECIFIC COMMUNITIES AND, YOU KNOW, ATTACKING THEM?

>> SO I'LL SUGGEST A COUPLE OF THINGS.

ONE IS THE ENFORCEMENT OF CURRENT POLICIES, WHICH I THINK HAVE BEEN UNDERENFORCED BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF BLOWBACK.

THE SECOND IS TO EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT THE HISTORY OF JUST AZHAR VARD DID WITH ITS LONG RACISM PROJECT, TO DO THAT WITH THE ANTISEMITISM.

BECAUSE THE HATRED OF THE JEW STANDS IN THE CENTER OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION.

IT'S NOT PERIPHERAL TO IT.

AND WE NEED TO DEAL WITH THAT AND THE PLACE OF JEWS IN THE CREATION OF OUR CIVILIZATION.

AND I WOULD SAY THIRD, WE NEED SERIOUS SUSTAINED AND IMMEDIATE TRAINING IN WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS HOW TO DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE ELSE WITHOUT SCREAMING, THREATENING, SHOUTING, IN OTHER WORDS, CIVIL DISCOURSE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU CALL FOR AT THE END OF YOUR RESIGNATION STATEMENT, "WE ARE NOW IN A PERIOD WHERE JEWS AROUND THE WORLD ARE CELEBRATING HANUKKAH, AND YOU ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO MAKE A CHOICE TO BRING LIGHT INTO THE WORLD.

THIS IS A TIME WHEN IT SEEMS LIKE WE CAN USE A LOT OF LIGHT, NOT JUST ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, BUT GIVEN WHAT ELSE IS HAPPENING ON THE PLANET TODAY.

HOW DO WE DO THAT?

WHAT'S AN EASY PRESCRIPTION FOR SOMEONE WATCHING THIS PROGRAM WHEREVER THEY ARE IN THE WORLD TO TRY TO BRING LIGHT INTO THE SITUATION?

>> I THINK YOU BRING LIGHT, FIRST OF ALL, BY LISTENING, GENUINELY LISTENING TO THE OTHER, BY RESPONDING WITH DECENCY, WITH KINDNESS, WITH RESPECT, WITH GOODNESS.

AND ALSO AS BEEN TRUE FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS, YOU BRING LIGHT WITH LOVE.

AND I THINK THAT BRINGING LOVE TO THE WORLD AND LIGHT TO THE WORLD IS THE TASK OF EVERY FATE.

AND I WISH THAT IT WERE MORE MANIFEST ON OUR CAMPUSES AND IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND AS THIS NEW YEAR IS ABOUT TO BEGIN AND WE'RE CELEBRATING HANUKKAH, I AM HOPEFUL THAT MAYBE THE FUTURE WILL BE A LITTLE BRIGHTER THAN THIS PAST.

>> RABBI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> EVERY NIGHT HERE, WE COMMIT TO FOSTERING DIALOGUE.

AND FINALLY, YOU KNOW THAT IT'S HOLIDAY SEASON WHEN ALICIA KEYS MAKES A SURPRISE APPEARANCE AT ONE OF EURO'S BUSIEST TRAIN STATIONS.

SHE SERENADED FANS ON A PUBLIC PIANO DONATED BY ELTON JOHN TO LONDON'S ST. PANCREAS STATION.

HERE IS A BIT OF THAT IMPROMPTU CONCERT.

♪ NO ONE, NO ONE, NO ONE CAN GET IN THE LOVE OF WHAT I'M FEELING ♪ ♪ NO ONE, NO ONE, NO ONE CAN GET IN THE WAY OF WHAT I'M FEEL FOR YOU ♪ >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.