A new study from the State Treasurer's office finds that on a per capita basis, Vermont had the highest net in-migration of any New England state.

And the third highest rate in the US last year.

I think as policymakers, it tells us that we really need to focus in on housing, and we really need to focus in on that.

Housing for middle class and working class Vermonters to make sure they can continue to live and afford to live in Vermont.

Plus, with January's presidential inauguration rapidly approaching, we take stock of the potential impacts the Trump administration could have on Vermont.

And a cannabis retailer filed suit over the state's advertising rules.

That and more ahead on Vermont this Week.

From the Vermont public studio in Winooski.

This is Vermont this week, made possible in part by the Lintilhac Foundation and Milne Travel.

Here's moderator Mitch Wortley.

Thanks so much for being with us.

I'm Mitch Wortley.

It's Friday, December 13th and joining us on the panel today.

We have Anne Wallace Allen from Seven Days, Auditi Guha from Vtdigger, and joining us remotely today, Howard Weiss-Tisman has been from Vermont Public.

Thank you all so much for being here.

And we've got a lot to talk about today.

I want to start with some news that I found that was kind of surprising, actually.

Study coming out of the treasurer's office finds that thousands more people moved to Vermont or were moving to Vermont, then moving away.

We've been hearing so much about trying to attract people to the state.

If you look at this graphic here, you can see that around the pandemic year of 2021, there was this huge up shoot.

A lot of people were moving to Vermont.

Then we heard about that.

Then kind of a dip.

But for last year, more than double the previous year, some 7000 people, moving to Vermont.

More than that.

This brings up the question, though, of where these people living and Wallace Allen, because we have heard so much about the housing crunch in Vermont.

You've been writing about this in seven days.

And tell us a little bit about, first of all, the impact that the Trump administration could have on housing as as we move into this next year in the new, administration.

Yeah.

As you said, Vermont has a huge housing crunch.

We really have a shortage of housing here.

And, it's people are leaving the state or they're living with their parents or they're, you know, they're living in housing that isn't necessarily what they would choose, or they're paying much more than a third of their income for the housing.

So the, there's a lot of factors that go into it.

It's material costs, it's labor costs, it's land it's permeating.

It's it's just, the shortage is making the costs rise.

But the Trump administration wants to impose tariffs on a lot of the materials that go into building housing.

And that could have a big effect.

And drive costs up even higher.

Materials are already pretty expensive.

Without the tariffs.

Even materials prices went up a lot during the pandemic.

And they they are certainly one of the reasons why housing prices have, actually doubled in the last few years.

And, there, you know, Vermont does import a lot of its lumber from Canada, which is one of the, countries that is likely to be targeted for tariffs.

We send logs up to Canada and we get it back.

We get the wood back as lumber.

So I talked to a lot of people who are responsible for purchasing, like a large amounts of building materials for various companies in Vermont.

And they weren't completely panicked.

They said they're waiting to see what's going to happen.

They said that they already, have some local sources for materials so they would be able to switch, but they said it would be more expensive.

And then for public entities like Champlain Housing Trust, which is the largest real estate developer in Chittenden County, because they get a lot of federal funding and federal tax credits, they are required to buy their building materials from U.S. suppliers already.

So there are people that won't be affected by the tariffs because they're already buying within the country.

And like you said, we have to wait and see what's going to happen.

I know, Prime Minister Trudeau, Canada has tried to meet with, the Trump administration about this.

But certainly it's not off to a great start.

And there's a little bit of enmity there already with the news of these tariffs coming in.

Right.

Yeah.

And there's also talk of retaliatory tariffs.

I mean, some of these countries are going to feel as though they're being targeted.

And then they could put tariffs on our exports.

So one thing that businesses really like is certainty and predictability.

And there hasn't been a whole lot of that lately anyway.

And this is definitely throwing another piece of, that question up.

I mean, there's so, you know, people who outside of the building materials, people who rely on imports from other countries, like twin craft, which makes soap and personal products in Vermont, and employs 450 people there.

One of their founders told me that they import materials from 50 countries.

And, you know, she said, even if we're not actually targeted for tariffs, any of those countries, the whole issue is going to just throw everything into a state of uncertainty, and it's going to cause a lot of change for people, even if they're not importing those.

Speaking of change, yeah, I know another thing that you've been digging into here is, of course, there's been a ton of talk leading up to the election about immigration and the hardline stance that the Trump administration, is planning on taking, this is affecting colleges around Vermont, UVM, Middlebury.

What can you tell us about that?

Yeah, because they have foreign students and faculty.

They have a lot of international people on their campuses.

And I, I, I have noticed that nationally, a lot of schools have been coming out and putting their, their warnings to students, their advisories to students saying you might want to get back here before January 20th.

There might be a change in the rules.

They're pretty pretty discreet about, you know, what, the way that they frame it.

But they're saying, you might want to make sure that you're back here in this time.

And of course, a lot of the schools are already in session well before January 20th, which is the presidential inauguration day.

Anyway, but there's a lot of scholars and students who are on study abroad programs and things like that moving around so it could affect them.

And Middlebury sent out a and advise you to its students, say, just please be aware of what's going on.

Please make sure that your documents are up to date.

And also just be mindful of this upcoming date and university of Vermont did something similar.

They wrote to their students and they're called their faculty and staff and said, you know, please be aware, we're starting January 13th.

But for those who weren't going to come back for the 20th, you might consider doing that.

It's an additional stressor, for sure.

Howard West has been you've been writing about other potential effects that a new administration or, the Trump administration could have on Vermont.

You've been doing a lot of reporting on broadband.

How how could this be affected?

Right.

So Vermont is expecting this big chunk of money through this, program called the Bede Program.

Bede for Broadband Equity Access and Deployment Program.

This is a federal program, that was included in the Biden Infrastructure Act.

And, it's a big chunk of money.

To give you an idea, Vermont's total broadband buildout is expected to cost somewhere between 5 and $600 million.

And this chunk of money that Vermont is getting is 229 million.

So, you know, it's a good 40% of what the state needs for the complete broadband buildout.

And, president elect Trump has been very, very critical of this program.

When I was reporting this story, I came across an interview he did for a podcast where he was commenting about these states that are spending millions of dollars to hook up some farm house at the end of a dirt road.

And, you know, that would be Vermont.

That's what we're doing with this money.

We're going down these dirt roads.

So the whole program has really because it's federal money.

It's moving very slowly.

Vermont is right on the precipice of starting it.

So what state officials are really trying to move this thing along.

Everything is had had had to be approved for this program.

The application process, the decision making process.

But they're very close.

They opened up the pre-approval process, just last week or so.

And they really hope once the money's here will be fine.

And there's not real fear this could happen, but it's a possibility again, President-Elect Trump has, criticized this program.

So, you know, folks are really keeping an eye on it and just trying to get this money into Vermont because it's so important for the broadband, construction that's happening.

Howard, I want to do a quick follow up on this here, because I'm trying to figure out exactly what, president elect Trump's criticism of this is because, as he was running for, election again, you know, he was trying to, pose himself as a champion of rural America, rural Americans.

This is something, as you said, that Vermont has been trying to do for a long time is to hook everybody up so that even if you are in a remote area, even if you are in a rural part of the state, you can have the same access to the internet that folks in the cities would have.

What exactly is his complaint about this?

He's saying that it's wasteful or that this again, this is affecting people that ostensibly, you know, he was, trying to get support for.

Yeah, a lot of it is just that he doesn't think it's money well spent.

Some people have speculated one option is, Elon Musk has some ideas about how to reach some, rural areas.

He has a Starlink program.

And so some people have said that if the big money does not come to rural America, that another option would be, to hook up the Musk, system.

Okay.

Thanks, Howard.

Oregon, I want to turn to you.

Now, you've been writing about, of course, another thing that's on a lot of people's minds with the Trump administration coming in.

Civil rights, reproductive rights as well.

In Vermont, Vermont has reproductive rights enshrined into its constitution.

But, is there a threat to that?

Well, it remains to be seen.

Advocates are deeply concerned at the attacks on reproductive rights, nationally.

And Trump has, said in his campaign trail that that may be something that he, he might be focusing on curtailing.

And if there is some kind of a federal law that makes that happen, the danger is, is that it could supersede state laws, and in which case, yes, Vermont would be affected, even though the state currently has strong protections for reproductive rights.

Trump has said that he is not for a national federal ban.

He's been saying he wants to leave it to the states.

But again, there are others behind the scenes that are pushing for exactly, exactly that thing.

Okay, this brings us to something else that you've been writing about.

Audie.

And this is, Vermont's Human Rights Commission, came out recently and said, hey, we're having trouble, dealing with cases.

We don't have the staffing.

We don't have the capacity.

What are the what are they saying is the problem here?

Well, the Human Rights Commission, actually, this is the first time in their history they told me that they are putting out a public appeal for more funding.

And part of the reason is ever since their fiscal year started July 1st, their number of complain has just leapt up so much to the point that they have more than 100 cases pending that they have to even look at in Texas, as they say.

And they have turned away 47 cases already because they just don't have the capacity.

So they're asking the Scott administration to to pony up some more money or the legislature.

I mean, is that money really there?

We know what kind of a crunch there is in Vermont fiscally.

Well, that's exactly what they are asking for.

And they are really rallying with advocates around the state for that to happen.

It would, of course, depend on the budget season and the mood of the legislature.

What they're ask is not small.

They're almost doubling their budget.

They want seven new positions.

And, of the resources to the tune of about $800,000 more.

And as you're saying, this is the first time in their history they've publicly, lobbied for this kind of extra funding, right?

Yes.

And the reason is that they're seeing more discrimination complaints from around the state.

And remember that those come from the most marginalized and most vulnerable of Vermont's population.

A lot of the complaints actually going back to when story is about housing.

So a lot of fair housing complaints that they feel that they really need to get to, to protect Vermont residents.

And my class.

And again, bringing this back to the incoming Trump administration is their concern, too, on the Human Rights Commission that there could be even more cases they have to deal with, given what could happen federally.

Unfortunately, that is the feeling.

Yes.

Multiple, civil rights organizations across the state have been putting out statements asking people to be aware of their rights, knowing where to call.

This includes, plan parenthood outside Vermont because the attacks on trans people are expected to get worse, along with many others.

And, immigration advocates.

So there's definitely strong concern.

And a lot of, human rights groups such as ACLU are ready for the fight.

They said, we've been here before, and we have our resources and we have our people to hit the ground if needed.

Okay.

Thank you for the update on that.

Let's bring things back locally for a moment.

Howard, you were covering, a meeting in Brattleboro, I believe.

Just last night.

There was a heated debate in Brattleboro last night over community conduct and whether there should be an ordinance to deal with it.

And we have some sound from that meeting.

If I'm homeless and I'm addicted to fentanyl or heroin, and I'm dope sick and I'm desperate for money and I'm paying handling outside the co-op and a police officer comes along and under this ordinance issues me a class A violation with a $200 fine.

What's the point of that?

I can't pay a fine.

We are here in large part because our downtown has a perception of absolute erosion.

And now nobody at this table ever blamed anybody who was unhoused.

Nobody at this table looks to criminalize poverty.

Nobody.

So I just want to make that clear.

This is all things that the people who are opposed to this ordinance have interjected on this conversation.

It has no place here.

We had 3 or 4 Selectboard meetings in a row where 100 plus people begging this board to do something and do something quickly was an occurrence.

And as it has been my understanding that there's been only one other time in the history of select board meetings where something like that has happened, and that was for one meeting.

This happened 4 or 5 times in a row.

Howard, a lot of tension there.

That gentleman was seeing absolute erosion in Brattleboro when it comes to community conduct.

What what is he talking about?

What's going on?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, those two clips really told us a lot.

That last person we saw that was Peter Case, a member of the Selectboard and Brattleboro, just like a lot of towns across Vermont Burlington, Montpelier, Bennington, Rutland, you name it, are seeing more drug use, more folks experiencing homelessness.

Just a lot of activity out in the street that for a lot of us who have lived in Vermont for a long time, we just haven't seen before, what Peter Case was saying there is that this summer they heard from a bunch of downtown business owners who are just really frustrated with their windows being broken, with folks coming in and shoplifting.

And as Peter said, there were a series of meetings where a lot of people came out and said, please do something.

And so what the Selectboard did is they passed what they called, acceptable Community Conduct Ordinance.

It's it's convoluted, but basically it gives the police power to issue civil fines instead of criminal fines.

So this wouldn't be more arrest.

This would be finding people for trespassing, for drinking, for drug use.

You know, there's a list of things the Selectboard passed that in September.

And then a petition was quickly raised, forcing a town vote on it.

And that's what you saw there.

That meeting was held last night.

It was the Brattleboro does a thing called representative town meeting.

They're the only town in Vermont that does theirs.

So it wasn't a town wide vote, but the representatives voted and this ordinance was overturned.

As we heard from that first person, there was a lot of people saying that this ordinance criminalizes poverty, that it really won't do anything to address the issues of homelessness and opioid addiction and everything else.

So there's a lot of frustration.

There's a lot of, as you heard, really heated and emotions on both side of this issue.

And I don't know where it goes from here.

I as I was reporting this out, it looks like Saint Albans also justice Week passed a similar ordinance for properties so that police that respond continually to the same properties, the town now is allowed to approach the landlord and talk about it.

So, it's a big issue.

It's happening all over Vermont, and there are no easy fixes.

Yeah.

And it sounds like it's not the last that we're going to be hearing about all of these issues.

And I want to turn to you now, to a story that I find really fascinating.

And this is about a lawsuit that's been filed over the state's cannabis advertising rules.

This came from a cannabis retailer in Middlebury, I believe.

Yeah.

Dave Silberman, who's a who's a veteran of the industry, he's very well known.

He was one of the leaders in getting cannabis sales legalized in Vermont.

And when the Cannabis Control Board did legalized the sales, a lot of the people in the legislature were a little bit hesitant about the impact that they were actually quite hesitant about.

Going ahead with this and wondering what the impact would be on the community.

So one of the things that they did was, say that any advertising has to be cleared with the Cannabis Control Board, and their intent is to make sure there's no sort of Joe Campbell type figures that appeal to kids.

But the end result and also there's a long if you advertise on the radio, there's a 32nd spot warning of the dangers of using cannabis.

And, Silverman's lawsuit argues that this is really bad for the industry because, it takes a while to get things approved.

So if you're responding quickly to something on social media, the way advertising works these days, it's hard to do anything quickly.

And it adds it makes radio advertising, he says in his suit, too expensive because of that 32nd spot that also would turn reader, turn listeners off.

And the point has been made to that.

There are other industries, well, alcohol, tobacco, sports betting, which is new in Vermont now that don't have the same kind of advertising restrictions.

Right?

That's right.

I mean, it really speaks to the way that cannabis has captured the public's imagination for decades.

This is sort of dangerous and subversive substance that needs to be controlled in ways that, alcohol, for example, as you said, doesn't.

And James Pepper is the, chairman of the, the control board that that deals with cannabis.

I guess what he was saying was, you know, I can't do much about this.

Yes, I'm in control of the board, but I didn't write the state laws that are dealing with this.

And the fact that lawmakers would have to make any changes to the to the, advertising rules.

One other question, though, and maybe Dave Silberman address this or not.

I was a little surprised, in part because what I figured was, look, you know, cannabis has been legal now in Vermont for, what, a year or two?

Yeah.

Two years now.

So it seems to me like if people want to get high, if they want to access, cannabis, they would find a way.

Why do they need the advertising so much, I guess, that's a great question.

And yes, they always found a way long before this was legalized.

And, a lot of people are still going around the legal market, but, for these businesses to be part of the legal system and, to be regulated the way in the legal system, they are they need the advertising because they need to compete against each other successfully, just like any, any regulated business would.

Yeah.

Howard by Sussman, you've been, writing a little bit about, cannabis employee education, because I understand that a lot of the medical marijuana shops are going to be closing down now because people can just access on on a retail level.

What do they want to educate folks about here?

Yeah.

Right.

So this is really interesting.

As you said, Vermont legalized medical cannabis long before the adult use shops opened.

And now that cannabis is available all over the state, the medical only shops are having a tougher time, staying in business.

A couple have closed.

Also next year, adult use shops are going to be allowed to apply for a medical license.

The medical cannabis is more potent.

Folks that use it for medicine are able to buy it.

They're not taxed.

So the Cannabis Control Board is facing the very real, challenge that people are going to be coming in to these adult only shops and asking for advice.

They have a headache, they have a back injury.

What can you, recommend?

I use and some of the Cannabis Control board is trying to get ahead of that.

The Vermont Medical Society has some real issues with this.

Of course, while cannabis is used medicinally, it's not FDA approved.

And so the Cannabis Control Board is trying to walk this line of providing training.

They're kind of equating it to liquor.

You know, liquor stores have training and doing the same kind of thing.

So they're trying to, you know, walk that line about making sure that, folks that work in the cannabis shops are educated, that they're not giving out medical advice, but for the people that work in the shops, they do have resources to at least they're the folks who are looking for, input on different strains of indica, etc..

So, it's an interesting issue.

It's going to be, kind of rolling out over the next couple of months.

Oddly, I wanted to ask you about, a new program that is supporting Vermont employers that are seeking a more diverse workforce.

What's happening there?

Well, the Vermont professionals of Color has, found a need and a problem in the state where, as we've talked about how many people are coming in and the housing crisis that continues, they have found that when companies do hire diverse candidates, those people have a very hard time adjusting to Vermont.

And, the same organization said that they know of people who leave because they haven't been able to adjust to meet people or find housing in Vermont.

And so for employers who want to retain diverse candidates, this organization has come up with a really unique program.

They're calling it the New Common Nexus.

So if you were a company, say, hiring somebody from out of state who doesn't have friends or family or a connection in Vermont, but has a job, you could use this program for a fee to pair this person up with a local person who might sort of act as a ambassador or a friend and help this person find a lot of things that aren't easily go global, you know, that are maybe very community oriented, local things that are hard to find.

And briefly, you've been writing about, the plan to sell, Montpelier is downtown building that that empty building now because of all the flooding.

What's going on there?

Yeah, that's it's the big federal building out of that.

A prime location right in downtown Montpelier.

And it was, and it was the.

See, the site of the post office for many years.

And it has a broad plaza in front where a lot of people, they'll have their demonstrations there or the neighbors will have conversations.

And it was just a very central community hub for the town.

And like many, many buildings in Montpelier, it was closed overnight by a devastating flood in July 2023.

And it has sat empty.

While people have wondered what is going on and the feds have not been very communicative about it, they own the building.

Eventually.

I mean, more than a year and more.

About 15 months after the post office closed, the U.S.

Postal Service opened another post office.

But the the questions have remained about the building, which has water in its elevator wells and is in need of a ton of work to be, and flood proofing to be made, useful again so that now it's owned by the General Services Administration.

They said they're going to work with the community to find another use for it.

Okay.

We have to close here with, as we go to tape.

We don't know the score of the UVM versus Denver semifinal.

NCAA men's soccer tournament game.

I'm going to say UVM won out of perhaps scored the game winning goal.

Let's hope that's the case as we go to air.

And tomorrow, if you get nothing else to do and you look like Bernie Sanders, go to City Hall Park at noon.

There is a Bernie Sanders lookalike contest.

Senator Sanders announcing this will be likely his last term, by the way, in office.

He'll be 89 years old when his Senate term is up.

That's all the time we have for today.

Thanks so much to our panel.

Anne Wallace Allen from Seven Days or Auditi GUha from VtDigger.

And joining us remotely today, Howard Weiss- Tisman from Vermont Public.

Thank you all so much.

I'm Mitch Wertlieb, thanks for watching.

We'll see you again next week on Vermont this Week.