WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Good evening.

I'm William Brangham.

Amna Nawaz and Geoff Bennett are away.

On the "NewsHour" tonight: Intense fighting continues in Gaza, and civilians caught in the crossfire struggle to find care in overcrowded hospitals.

Then: In a year-end news conference, Russian President Vladimir Putin vows to press on with his war in Ukraine, despite heavy losses and the coming winter.

And some evangelical leaders in the U.S. join together to combat political radicalization within their congregations.

PASTOR BOB ROBERTS JR., Co-Founder, Multi-Faith Neighbors Network: It's been hard for us to come to grips that, could we have people that are radical that are part of us?

But it's to a point now we can't ignore it.

(BREAK) WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Welcome to the "NewsHour."

International criticism of Israel is growing over its war in Gaza, which has killed more than 18,000 Palestinians, according to the Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry.

The U.S. is also asserting more pressure on it's ally.

National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan met with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his top lieutenants today.

But after the meeting, Netanyahu said that Israel would continue fighting until it achieves - - quote -- "absolute victory."

In the minutes after an Israeli airstrike, sounds of panic and pain, the sirens of an ambulance blaring, voices of men shouting over one another as they dig through the rubble with their bare hands.

Hundreds crowded on the sidelines have no choice but to watch.

Two buildings believed to house members of Hamas were targeted here in the Nuseirat refugee camp in Central Gaza.

The attacks came a day after Hamas' supreme leader, who lives in Qatar, far from the war, said in a televised address that their governance of Gaza will last.

ISMAIL HANIYEH, Chairman, Hamas Political Bureau (through translator): Any bet on arrangements in Gaza or in the Palestinian cause in general without Hamas and the resistance factions is an illusion and mirage.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The Israel Defense Forces said fierce ground fighting continued in the north today, and more videos showing dozens of men, lined up single file hands in the air.

The IDF claims they are terror operatives who surrendered their weapons and will soon be interrogated.

YOAV GALLANT, Israeli Defense Minister: Hamas is a terror organization.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Today, Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant hosted Sullivan for a series of meetings in Tel Aviv.

YOAV GALLANT: It will last more than several months, but we will win and we will destroy them.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: At an event in Maryland, President Biden said Israel's campaign needs to be more precise.

JOE BIDEN, President of the United States: I want them to be focused on how to save civilian lives, not stop going after Hamas, but be more careful.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But, in Rafah, the southern border town densely packed with Gazans who fled the north, the bombs keep falling.

U.N. officials also warn that Gaza's food crisis has reached a breaking point.

Crowds of people ran after aid trucks in Rafah, desperately helping themselves to food and making the continuous flow of aid near-impossible.

PHILIPPE LAZZARINI, Commissioner-General, United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East: What is happening in Gaza should outrage anyone, should make us all rethink our values.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Even as international efforts for another humanitarian cease-fire continue, calls for peace mean nothing to the ones who each day bear the brunt of war.

FADEL SHAABAN, Displaced Gazan (through translator): These are all just empty words.

We are the ones who pay the price.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In the day's other headlines: Authorities in Germany, Denmark, and the Netherlands arrested seven people accused of plotting terror attacks.

Three suspects in Germany were said to be members of Hamas who were plotting attacks on European Jews because of the Israel-Hamas war.

In Brussels, at a European summit, the Danish prime minister said it shows the gravity of the situation.

METTE FREDERIKSEN, Prime Minister of Denmark (through translator): It is very, very serious, and, of course, concerning Israel-Gaza, it is completely unacceptable for someone to bring an external conflict into Danish society.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Earlier this month, European Union officials warned of a huge risk of attacks over the Christmas holiday period.

The House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed a defense policy bill today worth $886 billion.

It included the biggest pay raise for troops in more than 20 years, but it dropped many of the demands from conservative Republicans, including restrictions on abortion and transgender care.

The Senate approved it last night, and President Biden is expected to sign it.

In Kenya, the military has intensified efforts to evacuate hundreds of people trapped by flooding.

At least 170 people have died in the deluge since heavy rains began in November.

Aid groups say it's the worst flooding there in a century.

More than 600,000 people have had to flee their homes.

GABEY ALIOW ISSAK, Kenya Resident (through translator): While I was running away from the rains and the floodwater, I fell down and broke my hand.

After the incident, my family and I came here, the young and old ones.

Since then, we are waiting for a solution to this problem.

We are pleading with the government to support us.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Forecasters say the heavy rains are expected to continue into the new year.

Amazon has won a major legal victory in Europe and won't have to pay more than $270 million in back taxes.

The E.U.

's highest court today rejected claims of illegal financial support from Luxembourg, where Amazon has its European headquarters.

The E.U.

's antitrust chief argued the company received special low tax rates, so almost three-quarters of its European profits were not taxed.

Back in this country, retail sales rebounded in November in a surprise start to the holiday shopping season.

The Commerce Department reports spending was three-tenths-of-a-percent after falling in October.

Analysts had expected another decline.

Sales were especially strong online and at clothing and furniture stores.

And on Wall Street, stocks closed slightly higher.

The Dow Jones industrial average gained 158 points to close at 37248.

The Nasdaq rose 27 points.

The S&P 500 added 12.

Still to come on the "NewsHour": what's on the table as congressional funding for Ukraine and the Southern border hangs in the balance?

; lawsuits challenging the standard real estate commission rate shake up the homebuying market; and Rush front man Geddy Lee reflects on his life and music in a new memoir.

Russian President Vladimir Putin today held his first press conference that included international media in more than two years.

And, as Nick Schifrin reports, he insisted that he would continue to wage war in Ukraine until all his goals were met.

(APPLAUSE) NICK SCHIFRIN: Across four stage-managed hours, in front of an audience of 600, Russian President Vladimir Putin said he had no intention of ending the war in Ukraine anytime soon.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, Russian President (through translator): There will be peace when we achieve our goals.

They have not changed, the denazification of Ukraine, its demilitarization, and its neutral status.

NICK SCHIFRIN: And even though a new U.S. assessment says 315,000 Russian troops have been killed or wounded, Putin expressed confidence Russia was winning.

VLADIMIR PUTIN (through translator): Almost along the entire line of contact, our armed forces, to put it modestly, are improving their position.

Almost everyone is active throughout the entire front line.

NICK SCHIFRIN: That includes strikes on Ukrainian critical infrastructure.

Ukraine says Russia attacked Odesa overnight with more than 40 drones.

Ukraine's air defense worked, but the debris of a shot-down drone gutted an apartment complex, and left Inna and her 3-year-old homeless.

INNA, Ukraine Resident (through translator): I cannot even describe it with words.

There was a big fire, smoke.

It felt as if it was in slow motion.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Part of Putin's confidence today was from what he suggested was a slow-motion weakening of Ukraine's Western support.

VLADIMIR PUTIN (through translator): Today, Ukraine produces almost nothing.

They get a freebie for everything.

But these freebies may end someday.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Ukraine had been worried about European Union support.

But today in Brussels, the European Council announced it would invite Ukraine to begin a path toward membership.

But U.S. funding to Ukraine still hangs in the balance.

Despite Zelenskyy's visit this week, congressional negotiators are struggling to approve $60 billion of aid to Ukraine before they leave for the holidays.

JOHN KIRBY, NSC Coordinator For Strategic Communications: They need our help, and they need it right now, not after the eggnog.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Today, National Security Council spokesman John Kirby cited Putin's words to those blocking Ukraine funding.

JOHN KIRBY: But I sure hope that House Republicans who have for months held hostage critical assistance Ukraine heard Putin's message loud and clear.

Instead, they're heading home for the holidays.

NICK SCHIFRIN: In the meantime, Moscow still holds wrongfully detained Americans, former Marine Paul Whelan and The Wall Street Journal's Evan Gershkovich, whose detention was extended today.

The U.S. says Russia recently rejected a prisoner swap offer.

But, today, Putin said he was open to a deal.

VLADIMIR PUTIN (through translator): We want to make an agreement, and that agreement should be mutually accepted and satisfy both sides.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Today, State Department spokesman Matt Miller encouraged Putin to consider U.S. proposals to swap Gershkovich and Whelan, and that -- quote -- "We very much want a deal."

We turn now to Thomas Graham, who served on the National Security Council staff and at the State and Defense departments.

He's now a distinguished fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.

Thomas Graham, thank you very much.

Welcome back to the "NewsHour."

As we just heard, Putin repeated the same objectives about Ukraine that he has been using since before the full-scale invasion began.

What does that say about his intentions for the war?

THOMAS GRAHAM, Council on Foreign Relations: Well, it says quite clearly that he intends to continue the struggle.

He certainly believes that time is on his side.

He has fended off the Ukrainian counteroffensive.

He sees evidence of infighting in the Ukrainian leadership.

And, as you have already mentioned, support in the West is flagging.

I mean, we have this problem in the Congress right now as far as funding is concerned.

So, all this has really reconfirmed Putin in his conviction that the Russians are more resilient, we have -- time is on our side, we need to continue to press forward.

NICK SCHIFRIN: President Biden repeatedly says that Putin believes that Russia can outlast Western support for Ukraine.

How much is Putin counting on the U.S. being unable to continue maintaining its support for Ukraine at the levels it has been?

THOMAS GRAHAM: I think that is at the top of his mind at this point.

He has thought that from the very beginning.

He begins to see evidence of that.

And he is hoping that, as we get deeper into the political season in 2024 and closer to the elections, that we will see even more flagging support for Ukraine.

I think this is critical in his mind to Ukraine - - to Russia finally achieving whatever its goals are in Ukraine.

NICK SCHIFRIN: And yet, on the battlefield, we don't see very much evidence that Russia is able to take the initiative or achieve any more territory than it already has.

Does Putin actually believe that Russia is winning in Ukraine?

THOMAS GRAHAM: Well, certainly, when he looks at the way things are tending, I would argue that he does believe that Russia is winning and that it can win.

That said, it is clear that they haven't made much progress on the ground.

And he could be setting himself up for a fall, because the expectation now is, particularly with flagging interest in the West, eyes focused on Gaza, that Russia should be making substantial progress on the ground in Ukraine.

That is going to be quite difficult.

And three or four weeks from now, we may be seeing a quite different Putin as he discusses the situation in Ukraine.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Let's expand out to Russia's economy.

Today, Putin claimed that the Russian economic growth was 3.5 percent this year.

At the same time, the Treasury Department released a new statement today saying U.S. and European sanctions had -- quote -- "put Russia's economy under considerable economic strain."

Have the sanctions put Russia's economy under considerable economic strain?

THOMAS GRAHAM: Well, I think the Treasury is thinking about the long term, and that is clearly true.

Short term, the sanctions haven't had the impact that the United States and the West in general had hoped for.

Putin has put the economy, his economy, on a war footing.

He's poured much money into military production.

He's managed to find ways to circumvent the $60 cap on oil, and, therefore, oil revenue is flowing into Russia's state coffers.

That allows him to continue to fund the military operation.

But I think, as you look at this down the road farther into the future, you see a situation that will be very difficult for Russia to sustain the economic growth that it is seeing in the current year.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Does that mean the sanctions are unlikely to affect any short-term thinking by Putin or even ability for Russia to wage war?

THOMAS GRAHAM: No, I think that's absolutely true.

The sanctions have had very little impact on Russia's ability to conduct this war short term.

They have had very little impact on the way the Kremlin thinks about the situation the ground.

Five, 10 years from now is a different story, but that's not where Putin is focused.

He certainly believes that he will achieve his goals in Ukraine much before that.

NICK SCHIFRIN: We call this Putin's annual press conference because it is usually annual, but last year's was canceled.

What does it say about the fact that he held this press conference with domestic, with international media?

What does it say about his confidence levels and what is what does it say about his hold on power?

THOMAS GRAHAM: Well, it certainly says that he's much more confident about his own situation, Russia's situation than he was a year ago.

Remember, a year ago at this time, the Ukrainians had launched a very successful counteroffensive, taken back Kharkiv oblast, liberated the city of Kherson.

This was not the time that Putin wanted to be speaking to the Russian public about how things were tending.

This year is quite different.

Russia appears to be doing OK on the ground in terms of pushing back against the Ukrainian counteroffensive.

But the other thing I think you need to bear in mind is that Putin is facing a presidential election in March of next year.

Now, there's no doubt that he's going to win that election, but it's very important for his own sort of political authority to put the best face possible on Russia's situation, to underscore the successes that Russia has had under his leadership.

And I think that's one of the reasons he decided to hold this annual press conference this year.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Thomas Graham of the Council on Foreign Relations, thank you very much.

THOMAS GRAHAM: Thank you.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In a sign that a deal on border security and Ukraine funding could still emerge by Christmas, the U.S. Senate plans to stay in town next week, instead of going on its scheduled recess.

Capitol Hill correspondent Lisa Desjardins and White House correspondent Laura Barron-Lopez are here to walk us through the latest.

Thank you both so much for being here.

Lisa, let's start with you.

How close are senators really to a deal?

And help us understand this issue that seems to be driving them so much, the numbers at the U.S.-Mexico border.

LISA DESJARDINS: Well, it is a sign that they are close that they have told senators to be ready to come back next week, but they have yet to really deal with some of the biggest differences between Republicans and Democrats.

The key, though, is that leaders on both sides want a deal.

So that's why we're watching it so closely.

Why do they want a deal?

Well, in part what we're seeing at the border.

So I want to talk about those numbers, because you see those without context.

We're a place for context.

First of all, this is the October numbers, the latest that we have.

Southwest border, we see migrant encounters about 240,000.

That is high, but it is not that different from last year's numbers.

One thing people need to know, that includes legal crossings.

So if you take the legal entries out, actually, the total illegal entry is more like 180,000.

I think it's also important to talk about who are we talking about.

The faces here are not something we focus on.

Let's look at last year, October 2022. Who was making -- who were being apprehended there at the Southwest border?

Look at that.

By far and away, it was single adults who were being picked up.

But let's look at the numbers now, October 2022, 2023, families.

You're seeing far more families now crossing the border.

They are being apprehended, the number of adults going down.

That has to do with U.S. policy.

Families are able to stay more, But it also has to do with the demand.

So, when we talk about these policies, that's who's being affected.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And so, Laura, these negotiations that are going on right now, what is actually on the table that's being discussed right now?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Multiple sources with knowledge of the negotiations have told me, have told Lisa that the White House is open to supporting major changes to the immigration system in this country.

Here's what's on the table, expanding fast-track deportations without judicial review to any undocumented person across the United States, if the person cannot prove they have lived here for two years.

Currently, expedited removals only apply to migrants that live within -- that are within 100 miles of the border who've arrived within 14 days.

They're also considering a new expulsion authority that would allow the administration to expel people with no ability to seek asylum.

It would be triggered if the number of arrivals exceeds more than 5,000 people a day.

Essentially, this makes permanent that Title 42 deportation policy without needing the public health crisis justification.

Negotiators are also talking about an expansion of detention for migrants.

But we don't know which migrants that would apply to, or if it would even comply with child detention laws.

Now, on that fast-track deportation, William, it's important to note that that would impact the 11-million-plus undocumented immigrants that currently live in this country, that have worked here for years, married here, have children here.

And they would need to carry on their person if something like this actually became law gym memberships, bills, any type of identification constantly with them that could show that they have lived here for more than two years.

And that new expulsion authority would essentially be eliminating asylum as it's currently written under our law.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Lisa, I know you have been talking to Republicans across the ideological spectrum.

How do they see these proposals that Laura's laying out?

LISA DESJARDINS: Well, this is a divided party, so there are different.

But, in general, it's important to understand that Republicans, most of them want what's called a closed border.

It's important to talk about what that means, because this is where the policy that Laura just talks about comes into play.

Republicans I talk to you, by and large, want asylum seekers who now can come and then be left to enter this country while they await processing, they want most of those asylum seekers to either be denied right away or to be in detention.

And that includes family detention.

Now, this is sort of an enforcement approach, and that's where you see some divide.

There are some on the sort of center-right, including a group called the National Immigration Forum that says enforcement only is not going to work.

We still need workers.

We are Republicans, and we want people to be able to have a legal process, because we have a labor shortage.

They think this might go too far.

But there are others on the other side, like the House Freedom Caucus, who say, this doesn't go far enough.

And they're worried that this isn't a total closure of the border.

So, in general, Republicans want this closed border, and this negotiation has moved closer that direction.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And, Laura, what do the Democrats say about all of this?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: So, I spoke to multiple former Biden administration officials who say that they're demoralized, they're disillusioned, they're disappointed, that they can't believe that the White House is even entertaining something like this, when they may not get anything in exchange, like a pathway to citizenship for dreamers.

And I think it's important to note, William, that the primary reason that these major immigration changes are being talked about is because a growing faction of House Republicans have repeatedly said that they will not support any additional Ukraine funding unless there are more severe restrictions on asylum and on undocumented migrants.

Now, former officials and Democrats across the spectrum that I have talked to say that they think that, even if this ultimately passes the Senate, that, even if there is a deal between Senate negotiators and the White House, that this could ultimately get tanked in the House, because they think that there could be enough House Democrats and enough House Republicans, for vastly different reasons, that will not go along with this.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: It's such an incredibly complicated maze, you guys.

LISA DESJARDINS: It is.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Laura Barron-Lopez, Lisa Desjardins, thank you for helping us get through it all.

LISA DESJARDINS: You're welcome.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Thank you.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The United Nations says Gaza's health system has virtually collapsed, and Gazans who have survived daily bombings now face the risk of disease amid chronically overcrowded hospitals.

Avril Benoit is the USA Executive director of the international humanitarian organization Doctors Without Borders, or MSF.

It has been operating in Gaza since the start of the war.

Avril Benoit, thank you so much for being here.

We are seeing reports that only a third of hospitals are still open in Gaza.

A U.N. official who just came back from Southern Gaza described the region as being on the brink of total chaos.

What has your own staff been reporting back to you about conditions there?

AVRIL BENOIT, Doctors Without Borders: William, the conditions have been harrowing almost since the beginning, with the shortage of fuel, the shortage of medicines, of medical equipment, the constant orders to evacuate hospitals that are fully functioning and overcrowded with patients in need of care.

We are seeing a lot of people coming in with catastrophic injuries, dead upon arrival in huge numbers, huge numbers of infections, people requiring major surgery and postoperative care that is just impossible under the current circumstances.

The hospitals are full.

And the medical teams are operating often with four or five people in a bed, many people having surgery at the same time.

When the operating rooms are full, they're doing it in the hallways, such a lack of anesthesia, such a lack of pain control medication, lack of bandages and basic sutures, basic supplies.

Many of the hospitals are just unable to cope.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And how do your staff go about trying to triage in circumstances like that?

AVRIL BENOIT: Well, it's a harrowing moral dilemma.

You take the triage training that you receive in medical school and subsequently from conflict medicine, where you're trying to determine, OK, who can we save with the shortfalls that we have in medicines, in anesthesia, in surgical supplies, who cannot be saved, and there are a lot of people who cannot be saved.

They will die of their infections.

They will die of their wounds.

And then you have those who are lightly injured, who will not be prioritized and are at very high risk of succumbing to what would normally be a fairly straightforward infection to deal with a small wound.

A few stitches, you send them on their way.

But, unfortunately, with the combination of the siege, people arriving so late because of the risk, the violence all around, we have attacks on hospital that have now become so routine that our doctors have been killed at the bedside of patients.

Just on Monday, we had a doctor -- a bullet pierced through the hospital from the outside.

There was sniper fire.

And this hospital has been surrounded by Israeli forces for many, many days now.

And he was shot and injured inside the hospital while treating a patient.

So, between all these combination of factors of people coming in extremely wounded, the risks to health care workers, and all the other pressures on the medical staff, that decision of who to save, who to treat is really - - I cannot express enough the heartbreak, the sense of utter failure of the medical humanitarian community, because we know what to do and we just can't do it.

It's impossible with the few resources, with the siege, with the constant pressures of the violence.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, the IDF argues that the only reason they are approaching hospitals or fighting around hospitals is because they argue Hamas is operating inside those hospitals themselves.

Have your staff seen any evidence of that?

AVRIL BENOIT: Yes, these are very unconvincing arguments, because we're always worried about the presence of militants amidst civilians.

That concerns everyone.

And our staff have not seen evidence that hospitals are being used in the way that the Israeli government continues to allege to provide political cover for what can also be considered war crimes.

When you attack a hospital that's fully functioning, that's full of patients, that's full of people finding refuge, civilians, families, children, there is no justification for attacking and destroying a hospital's capacity to treat people.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, the U.N. General Assembly two days ago voted to call for another humanitarian cease-fire.

Absent that happening, how long do you think MSF can continue operating under these conditions?

AVRIL BENOIT: We ask ourselves that hour by hour, because there are moments when we really question whether Doctors Without Borders, MSF, can continue.

Sometimes, it is so difficult even for patients to reach the health facilities, the hospitals that are managing to keep the doors open.

And, sometimes, the doors are closed because there's a -- they're surrounded by armed forces and there are snipers all around.

There may come a time -- if the violence and the indiscriminate violence against civilians continues to the extent that it is, we really question how long we can hang on.

And we don't want to leave.

We would like to be able to scale up.

People have a right to humanitarian assistance.

And because of the conduct of the war, this indiscriminate violence, the siege, it's imperative that we get a cease-fire, so that, at the very least, we can start giving civilians an opportunity to survive this horror.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, Avril Benoit of Medecins Sans Frontieres, Doctors Without Borders, thank you so much for being here.

AVRIL BENOIT: Thank you.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The Federal Reserve is projecting as many as three interest rate cuts next year.

That could help lower mortgage rates, which this year have been at a two-decade high, and make homeownership more affordable for many.

Some experts also point to a landmark jury decision that could also change the cost of buying and selling a home.

Economics correspondent Paul Solman has the story from Missouri.

TOM FERRY, Realtor: If you think I'm going to cut my bleeping, bleeping commission... PAUL SOLMAN: One senior realty broker sharing his favorite commission tactic.

TOM FERRY: You can take this home and shove it up your bleeping, bleeping, and I know that it will fit.

PAUL SOLMAN: This clip from a real estate podcast, and ones not quite so bleep-heavy, helped persuade a federal jury in Missouri that the National Association of Realtors and its members have illegally conspired for decades to fix commission rates on home sales, money paid to selling agents, who invariably cut in the buyer's agents 50/50.

Plaintiff attorney Mike Ketchmark.

MIKE KETCHMARK, Attorney: Why is it that the only system in our entire country, if you want to sell something, that you're paying the other side?

PAUL SOLMAN: Or, as one of Ketchmark's plaintiffs, former policeman Jerod Breit, put it: JEROD BREIT, Plaintiff: What a weird system that the person that I had never met and did absolutely nothing for me as a consumer was getting the full percentage.

PAUL SOLMAN: Three percent, fully half the typical total commission.

Worse still, says winning attorney Ketchmark, large firms are coming to dominate the industry, and have a huge incentive to preserve the system.

MIKE KETCHMARK: Half the time, these corporations are making their money representing sellers, and half the time they're making their money representing buyers.

And so they're propping this system up and they're benefiting each other.

PAUL SOLMAN: But not anymore, assuming the verdict withstands appeal.

For now, Ketchmark has won a $1.8 billion judgment on behalf of some half-a-million home sellers in just Kansas, Missouri, and Illinois.

MIKE KETCHMARK: We took 100 depositions of these top corporations in real estate, and they have training materials saying, fix your commissions at 6 percent.

MAN: When home sellers saw that I had written in a 6 percent commission into the contract, and would ask, Gino, aren't commissions negotiable, I would always answer confidently, yes, commissions are negotiable, but I can only go up.

MIKE KETCHMARK: And what we did is, we started uncovering this.

PAUL SOLMAN: So, this trial exhibit came as no surprise.

Between 2015 and 2022: MIKE KETCHMARK: We looked at the actual closing documents for the 110,000 homes sold in the Kansas City area; 98 percent of the time, the commissions were set between 2.5 percent and 3 percent to the buyer's commission; 94 percent of the time, it was right at 3 percent.

PAUL SOLMAN: The 3 percent the seller's agent gave the buyer's agent as a cooperation fee.

So, in addition to through-the-roof mortgage rates these days, a now higher-than-ever median American home price of $430,000, about $26,000 of which is realtor commissions, $13,000 for each agent, regardless of effort, making homes that much more expensive than even their market price, and thus the complaint, industry-wide commission fixing, as the video clips so blatantly suggested, agents colluding with the national association which owns the word realtor.

To call yourself one, you must be a dues-paying member.

The trade group's response?

KIPP COOPER, CEO, Kansas City Regional Association of Realtors: Commissions have always been completely negotiable, will always be completely negotiable.

And those are set up front with the listing agent and the seller much ahead of time.

PAUL SOLMAN: Look, a few individual brokers may behave badly, says Kipp Cooper, CEO of the Kansas City Regional Association of Realtors, but: KIPP COOPER: The National Association of Realtors has always been clear that -- and it's in all of our guidance documents.

It's in every meeting I have attended for the last 23 years, that we're not to talk about or set a commission rate.

PAUL SOLMAN: Well, mum's the word for most of us when it comes to negotiating commissions.

STEPHANIE GREENE, Kansas City Homeowner: I have never heard anybody talk about commission as part of their buying experience.

PAUL SOLMAN: First-time homebuyer Stephanie Greene closed on this house in Kansas City last spring to accommodate the, well, extended family.

STEPHANIE GREENE: High-five?

PAUL SOLMAN: To Greene, buying was all about price.

Negotiating the commission never occurred to her or to plaintiff Breit.

JEROD BREIT: I thought, as a first-time homebuyer in this experience, that 6 percent is 6 percent is 6 percent.

PAUL SOLMAN: But then -- and please bear with me as I try to untangle this legal web -- why do seller's agents share their commission, instead of pocketing the whole 6 percent?

Real estate economist Norm Miller.

NORM MILLER, University of San Diego: The general feeling among the industry is that if they don't offer a competitive buyer co-op fees, no one will show the home.

That is, they will steer away from it.

PAUL SOLMAN: OK, a seemingly rigged system, just as the jury found.

And yet Stephanie Greene likes the current system, even though she realizes homebuyers like her wind up paying a sizable commission sort of hidden as part of the final price.

STEPHANIE GREENE: It really helped us out to be able to work that into the mortgage, rather than having to pay it all up front.

TENESIA BROWN, Keys Realty Group: This is the monopoly board game, so this is the pathway to homeownership.

PAUL SOLMAN: And buyer's agents certainly often do provide plenty of value, especially, as Tenesia Brown does, for first-time homebuyers.

(LAUGHTER) TENESIA BROWN: Get a job.

PAUL SOLMAN: I have a job.

TENESIA BROWN: You would never guess the amount of people who have reached out to us who are interested in buying a home, but don't have a job or a source of income.

PAUL SOLMAN: Her agency walks clients through the very basics.

TENESIA BROWN: You need to buy a house because you have a baby.

Now, you are thinking.

You are thinking about the feature.

TIALYNN BEAUVOIR, Homeowner: I have two children.

I have a son who's autistic.

I wanted to write a letter, so who's ever home I was buying, they got to know a little bit about me.

PAUL SOLMAN: Tialynn Beauvoir says one of Brown's agents coached her well beyond the inspection, title search, even financing.

TIALYNN BEAUVOIR: She was like, if you are going to write a letter, let them know why and get personal, if that's what you want.

And so she attached it to every offer after that, that I put on there.

PAUL SOLMAN: Beauvoir got the house from someone who was touched by her appeal.

Brown, who runs the brokerage, worries about the judgment.

Will her largely low-income clients be able to afford a buyer's fee up front if her agents are no longer paid as part of the price?

Will they want to negotiate a commission?

TENESIA BROWN: The journey of homeownership or selling a home can be a roller coaster.

So, adding in the difficulties of now another layer of negotiating what has been a standard for so long is just going to make it more difficult.

PAUL SOLMAN: On the plus side of the judgment, maybe fewer of what Brown calls fly-by-night agents.

There are some two million real estate agents in America, 1.6 million of them realtors, and yet barely five million homes sold last year.

One in every 100 American workers holds a real estate license, and yet 80 percent of them sell little to nothing, says economist Miller.

NORM MILLER: If the fees come down and the good agents sell more homes, that means that there's a lot of part-timers and mediocre agents that are out of the industry.

PAUL SOLMAN: So, what's the economy's final verdict likely to be, should the juries be upheld?

NORM MILLER: We should move towards what we see in other developed countries, like the U.K., Israel, Singapore.

And that would suggest that the fees would move from 5 percent to 6 percent down to 3 to 4 percent.

PAUL SOLMAN: If sellers and buyers start negotiating.

Would Jerod Breit negotiate now?

JEROD BREIT: Absolutely, 100 percent.

PAUL SOLMAN: In the end, for each 1 percent less in commissions, buyers and sellers would have saved more $20 billion last year, 3 percent less, more than $60 billion, something like $13,000 a house.

And to up the pressure, Mike Ketchmark has now started a lawsuit against the industry nationwide, in the name of cutting home prices by bidding down commissions, which could lower prices and start a whole lot of haggling.

For the "PBS NewsHour," Paul Solman in Kansas City, Missouri.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Evangelical Christian leaders have been sounding the alarm in recent years about growing polarization and radicalization within their own churches.

Earlier this week, Laura Barron-Lopez sat down with one pastor who's trying to shift that conversation.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: In Tarrant County, Texas, outside Dallas, political allegiance is surpassing religious allegiance.

That's led to increased division and even anti-government and conspiratorial beliefs.

This week, a group of religious leaders from the Tarrant County-based Multi-Faith Neighbors Network, along with researchers at American University and other experts released The Peacemaker's Toolkit to help clergy across the country combat some of these issues in their communities.

Pastor Bob Roberts Jr. co-founded the Multi-Faith Neighbors Network, and joins me now.

Pastor thanks been on the "NewsHour."

You led an evangelical church for more than 30 years.

Can you tell us a bit about the shift that you're seeing in communities like yours and more broadly in the faith community in recent years?

PASTOR BOB ROBERTS JR., Co-Founder, Multi-Faith Neighbors Network: Thank you for having me.

The shift that's taking place is for real.

There was a time when church was something that we did, we worshiped, the focus was on God, he was first.

But I fear that the church has been impacted with many of the things in the culture that is impacting everyone else.

And I think, for a while, we have not dealt with it.

It's been hard for us to come to grips that could we have people that are radical that are part of us.

And I also think sometimes broad strokes, like all Christians are Christian nationalists and things like that, it's made it difficult for us to be able to speak into those things.

But it's to a point now we can't ignore it.

I don't think anyone would say that I'm a white supremacist, or they would say that they're an extremist or anything like that, but there are things that are taking place that are going deep within evangelical churches.

Over 30 percent of evangelical churches believe certain parts about QAnon.

That's cause for concern.

Conspiracy theories are very present.

There was a time when the church influenced the government and the political parties.

I'm sorry to say that the political parties now, a political party, in particular, for evangelicals, have impacted us pretty dramatically.

Instead of pastors being prophetic, they have become more pundits, more personalities.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Politics that you're saying is infecting what pastors are saying to their congregants?

PASTOR BOB ROBERTS JR.: Tremendously.

Tremendously.

Pastors are afraid sometimes to say what they know they need to say, because, no matter what they say, they're going to get in trouble.

So, when COVID was here, whether you wore a mask or didn't wear a mask, it was a controversial issue.

And so, as a result of that, conspiracy theories, polarization, tribalization, all of this comes into play.

And then you have got to understand, as Christians, we do what we do based on the Bible and because we passionately want to follow Jesus.

And when a preacher stands up and says, you have got to vote for this person or you're not following Jesus, that's not good.

And when you have politicians promise that they can fix things, sometimes, we can be susceptible to a politician promising to fix something that they can't or that they really don't have a desire, other than to use us for their own political purposes.

And there's nothing wrong with being in a political party.

We all have political views.

That's great.

But I think, as Christians, we have to realize that we are committed to a kingdom that transcends any nation.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Are you talking about former President Donald Trump there, or are there any specific leaders that you hear about?

PASTOR BOB ROBERTS JR.: Any leader.

Any leader.

I don't care if it's Democrat or Republican.

I think, when we start to look to a political leader to be our messiah, that's when we get into trouble.

And when we look to political leaders and we give them pass on morals and integrity and character, thinking that the way to help truth and goodness and righteousness is to make a pact with evil, I think that's very dangerous.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: What are the consequences of what you're talking about here?

What has been the impact that you have seen specifically on younger pastors?

PASTOR BOB ROBERTS JR.: Oh, it breaks my heart.

Many of them want to quit.

But, right now, we're going through one of the toughest times ever in American history for pastors.

They're burnt out.

Their emotional health, their mental health is at risk.

I mean, there are so many studies about this.

I talk to pastors all the time, and they know they need to address certain issues: "Bob, how do I address this?

What do I do?

How do I even talk to the people?"

Because they're being impacted by conspiracy theories, news channels.

They're listening to others tell them what their position ought to be more than they are the Bible.

And so how do you deal with that?

And so there's not the same authority in the pulpit, sadly, for some that comes from political pundits and others.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: To fix this, you helped put out this Peacemaker's Toolkit.

What are some of the things in that toolkit that you think will fix this problem?

PASTOR BOB ROBERTS JR.: The Toolkit was critical for us.

I'm sorry to say, as evangelicals, we don't talk about peacemaking near as much as we should.

You can't read the Bible and not see that peacemaking is not there.

So, it first of all, deals with a theological basis.

What is the basis for peacemaking?

And so, in that context, we look at the ethic of Jesus, not just love your neighbor, but love your enemy.

And love your enemy works in a fantastic way when you're dealing with peacemaking and when you're dealing with people that are at odds, the polarization that's taking place, the isolation that's taking place.

The second part deals with scenarios, challenges pastors are faced with.

Had a pastor, call me.

He was very upset.

He said: "I don't know what to do."

And he has a pretty good-sized church.

He said: "I have got church members that are joining a militia across the state line in another state.

They're coming back.

How do I deal with this, Bob?

How do I even address it?

What do I do about that?"

So, we try to think, what are some of the scenarios they deal with?

Justify, well, violence.

I mean, violence is up, and the justification saying violence would be OK in order to bring about a desired result, that's not good.

But Multi-Faith Neighbors Network, it wasn't just enough to look at how we're not getting on with Muslims and how do we relate to Jews.

We had to start looking at our own backyard as Christians.

Now, wait a minute.

When I started hearing pastors calling for war, when I would hear them trash other religions in the pulpit, disagree with them, challenge the theology, but you don't have to trash a religion.

And when I see what's taking place in our country, and at MFNN, we knew we had to do something.

And so it's simple.

It's not hard.

It's not complicated.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: And so what you just said, are you losing congregants to white supremacist militias or other violent militias more and more in Texas?

PASTOR BOB ROBERTS JR.: I don't think so.

But I think we are having people that are leaning that way.

And so civil society is one of those things, it can be destroyed really quick, and it takes decades and years to build up.

We can't be silent.

Civil society is like basket weaving.

And so are there people?

Well, sure.

We know we have got white supremacists.

We know that it's, according to the FBI, one of the biggest challenges that we face.

But I don't think you ought to walk in a church and think, man, all these white people are white supremacists.

They're not.

Are there some there?

You bet there are, but I'm telling you there's far more people that want to get along.

They want to be at peace.

And so we have got to give tools to push back against this.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Pastor Bob Roberts Jr. of the Multi-Faith Neighbor Network, thank you for your time.

PASTOR BOB ROBERTS JR.: Thank you.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: To some, they are rock gods, to others, a trio of nerds.

From the 1970s to the 2000s, the Canadian band Rush achieved huge success, driven by their virtuosity and eclectic, lyrical songwriting.

After the death of drummer Neil Peart in 2020, lead singer and bass player Geddy Lee stepped away from the stage.

But he has returned now in a spoken word tour to accompany his new memoir.

Lisa Desjardins spoke with him for our arts and culture series, Canvas.

LISA DESJARDINS: Their sound was hard to label.

For 40 years, the band Rush refused to blend in, becoming rock legends with hard work, 24 gold and 14 platinum albums, and touring nearly every year.

Their songs about power and identity were unusual then, rock anthems about teen mental health and even A.I.

But they are now taking on new meaning.

And their lead singer, Geddy Lee, is doing something new, pausing to look back with his memoir, "My Effin' Life."

I asked him about the band, virtuosos.

Some call Neil Peart the best rock drummer in history, and "Rolling Stone" has listed Lee on the bass and Alex Lifeson on guitar as among the best on those instruments.

You all spent your life not just being good, but trying to reach the sort of unfathomable level of quality.

Why push so hard?

GEDDY LEE, Author, "My Effin' Life": Why?

It's just in my nature, I think.

And I think my partners share that trait of wanting to do whatever it is we do as best as we can do it.

LISA DESJARDINS: In music and message, Rush's songs often bolster underdogs and attack toxic power, from high school cliques to fascists, meaningful to Lee especially.

You also write in the book how both of your parents survived Nazi concentration camps.

I want to ask you.

There's an intense debate right now about hate, about speech, culture, and art is part of that.

And I wonder, how do you think about the tension now between free speech and rising hate that we see?

GEDDY LEE: You know, people are smart.

People should be able to discuss things.

The death of discourse is not good for the human race.

It's not good for improving things.

You know, it's through discourse and through educating each other about the things that are important to have a good, safe, peaceful life.

That cannot go away.

And when you see that starting to happen, it scares me.

It really scares me a lot.

And I am put in mind of what was going on in Germany before World War II.

There are danger signs all over the world right now, and that worries me a lot.

LISA DESJARDINS: That's the image most Rush fans have of them, thoughtful, philosophical, and different from others in rock.

GEDDY LEE: There's certainly the theme of identity and multiple identities is a big part of the book.

LISA DESJARDINS: But his book is candid and confessional about the reality of music-making.

You talk about Bolivian marching powder.

GEDDY LEE: Yes.

LISA DESJARDINS: Doing lines of cocaine in the '70s and '80s.

I think your fans will be surprised by that.

GEDDY LEE: You have to remember, we were very young and suddenly finding ourselves with 23 gigs in a row, for example, driving every night, playing every day, driving, driving, play, drive, play, drive.

And so, even our youthful stamina, such as it was, every once in a while needed a bit of help.

But the problem is that it's an insidious drug.

And you think you control cocaine, but very rarely do you, because it takes control of you.

You asked me earlier about our work ethic and are obsessive to be perfect.

Well, that's the thing that controlled your drug intake.

You can't go out on stage and seek perfection if you're inebriated or somehow distorted or handicapped by a drug.

So that's the thing that really did save us.

LISA DESJARDINS: I wanted to come back to that idea of community.

The Rush community, the Rush fan base, they love you.

I know.

I am part of that community.

I think the Rush fan base sees themselves sometimes as people who don't fit in everywhere in society, don't think that society looks at them, and they have found something in your music that is refuge.

Why do you think that is, and what does that mean to you?

GEDDY LEE: It means a hell of a lot to me.

And it sustained us.

LISA DESJARDINS: Especially in the late 1990s when, within a span of months, Peart's daughter and then his wife died in separate events.

He was shattered, and the band took its longest break.

GEDDY LEE: When he came back to us and we decided to go back on the road, made an album, the day we did our first show in Hartford, people had come literally from all corners of the world to welcome us back.

And that was so moving.

It was so overwhelming.

And that was the first time I realized the depth of their ability to relate to us.

Now, how did that come to be?

It's hard to know.

Our earliest fans, of course, loved that we played fast and complicated stuff.

And so our earliest fan base was largely males and largely other players, young players.

But now it's changed.

We have young musicians of every gender just following us and studying our music, which is, of course, the ultimate compliment.

LISA DESJARDINS: Now Rush's music has become a kind of Rachmaninoff of rock, complex and challenging, but idolized.

Have to ask you, do you think you could tour musically again?

GEDDY LEE: Yes, I could.

Will I?

It remains to be seen, but, yes, I could.

And I do have a desire to do that.

LISA DESJARDINS: However you label his music, Geddy Lee wants more ahead.

For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Lisa Desjardins in Oxon Hill, Maryland.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Check out our Instagram for more from Geddy Lee.

Hear his answers to Lisa's lightning round of questions on everything from baseball to robots to Bjork.

And that is the "NewsHour" for tonight.

I'm William Brangham.

Join us again here tomorrow evening.

For all of us at the "PBS NewsHour," thank you and we will see you soon.