>> O'Connell: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON, I'M SUE O'CONNELL, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

MAYOR MICHELLE WU SAYS MASS AND CASS WILL BE CLEAR IN LESS THAN A MONTH, WITH HOUSING AVAILABLE FOR EVERYONE WHO WAS LIVING THERE.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO GO?

AND IS THIS REALLY THE BEST SOLUTION?

THEN, LATER, B.U.

'S DICK LEHR JOINS ME ON HIS NEW BOOK, "WHITE HOT HATE," ABOUT THE FAILED TERROR PLOT OF THREE RIGHT-WING MILITIA MEN WHO PLANNED TO KILL MUSLIMS IN KANSAS THE DAY AFTER THE 2016 ELECTION AND THE F.B.I.

INFORMANT WHO STOPPED THEM.

>> O'Connell: BOSTON MAYOR MICHELLE WU IS PUTTING A HARD DEADLINE ON HER PLAN TO CLEAR THE TENT ENCAMPMENT FROM THE AREA KNOWN AS MASS AND CASS, SAYING EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE OUT BY JANUARY 12th.

CITY WORKERS HAVE STARTED OFFERING PEOPLE THERE HOUSING AT ONE OF MULTIPLE CITY AND HOSPITAL-RUN SITES-- INCLUDING A 41-BED PROGRAM AT A HOTEL IN MISSION HILL, A 30-UNIT CLUSTER OF TEMPORARY COTTAGES AT SHATTUCK HOSPITAL IN JAMAICA PLAIN AND A 60-UNIT VACANT HOTEL NEAR MASS AND CASS-- THE LAST OF WHICH HAS GOTTEN A WHOLE LOT OF PUSHBACK FROM THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

BUT WU ALSO ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY THAT ADDITIONAL MEDICAL RESOURCES WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE AT CITY-OWNED SHELTERS SO THEY CAN SAFELY ACCEPT PEOPLE STRUGGLING WITH ADDICTION.

>> THE VAST, VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE CURRENTLY AT MASS AND CASS DO NOT WANT TO BE AT MASS AND CASS.

>> O'Connell: CITY OFFICIALS SAY THAT OF THE NEARLY 150 PEOPLE LIVING IN THE TENT ENCAMPMENT, 95% WOULD BE WILLING TO LEAVE WITH THE RIGHT SUPPORT, ACCORDING TO A RECENT SURVEY.

AS FOR THE REMAINING 5%, THE MAYOR DIDN'T ADDRESS EXACTLY HOW THEY'LL HANDLE PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO LEAVE OTHER THAN TO SAY SHE'LL WORK CLOSELY WITH PUBLIC HEALTH AND PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICIALS.

>> THIS IS ABOUT TAKING A BOLD, TRANSFORMATIONAL APPROACH, NOT TO PUT A Band-Aid OVER THE SITUATION BUT TO GET AT UNDERLYING CAUSES.

>> O'Connell: I'M JOINED NOW BY THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE A.C.L.U.

OF MASSACHUSETTS, CAROL ROSE AND GBH NEWS REPORTER, TORI BEDFORD.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU, THIS IS A TOPIC WE HAVE ALL BEEN COVERING FOR MANY YEARSES.

I WANT TO JUMP RIGHT IN AND TAKE A LOOK AT THE SUMMARY OF THE PLAN TO START THE CONVERSATION.

THE PLAN FOR MASS AND CASS WHICH WAS ANNOUNCED TODAY HAS DOZENS OF SUPPORTIVE HOUSING PLACEMENTS, AN AIM TO LOWER BARRIERS TO BEDS AT EXISTING SHELTERS, EXISTING ENCAMPMENT PROTOCOL FOR ANY REMAINING TENTS AFTER JANUARY 12th, AND THE CITY WILL MAINTAIN A PRESENCE IN THE AREA.

AND MICHELLE WU, ALSO MAYOR WU SAYING THAT SHE THINKS THE REAL STORY IS THAT BY JANUARY 12th THE CITY WILL HAVE STACKED UP RESOURCES SO EVERYONE IN NEED HAS A PLACE TO GO AND DOES NOT HAVE TO BE AT MASS, CASS.

TORI, YOU HAVE BEEN CORYING-- COVERING THE STORY FOR GBH QUITE A BIT.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE AWAY IN YOUR REACTION TO THIS NEW PLAN FROM WU?

>> SO ONE OF THE MAJOR ASPECT OF THIS THAT SHE EMPHASIZED OVER AND OVER WAS THAT SHE REALLY DOESN'T WANT A REPEAT OF WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST.

SO OBVIOUSLY WE HAD OPERATION CLEAN SWEEP IN 2019 WHERE FORMER MAYOR WALSH CLEARED OUT THE AREA AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE CAME IN RETURN.

THERE IS A CONCENTRATION OF SERVICES THERE AND PEOPLE COME AND DO THOSE SERVICES, THERE WAS A SENSE OF COMMUNITY WITHIN THAT AREA AND A LOT OF PEOPLE CAME TO DO THAT.

SO I THINK SHE HAD A LOT OF MEETINGS WITH BUSINESS OWNERS AND RESIDENTS AND THEY HAVE HAD A LOT OF COMPLAINTS ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY FROM A NEIGHBORHOOD PERSPECTIVE.

SO SHE IS FACTOR THAT INTO HER DECISION TO SAY THERE WILL NOT BE THIS CONCENTRATION OF ENCAMPMENTS ANY MORE.

MY FIRST PRIORITY IS TO FIND HOUSING FOR PEOPLE BEFORE THINGS GET INCREDIBLY DANGEROUSLY COLD, THAT HAS ALREADY STARTED TO HAPPEN.

AND MAKE SURE THAT THE NEIGHBORHOOD APPROXIMATE GOES THROUGH CHANGES IN ITS DYNAMIC AS WELL.

SO THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT SHE REPEATED AND I THINK THE BIGGEST QUESTION COMING OUT OF THAT WAS HOW WILL YOU ENSURE THAT YOU CAN ACCOMMODATE ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT NEEDS AT THE SAME TIME WITHOUT REPEATING, YOU KNOW, MISTAKES THAT HAVE BEEN MADE BY PREVIOUS ELECTIVES IN THE PAST, I THINK DURING HER MOST RECENT PRESS CONFERENCE WHERE SHE REVEALED THE DETAILS OF THIS PLAN SHE WAS ASKED ABOUT GETTING FOLKS OUT OF TENTS, SHE SAID THERE WILL BE NO MORE ENCAMPMENTS AFTER JANUARY 12th OR JANUARY 13th.

HOW WILL SHE BE DOING THAT?

WILL SHE BE PLACING EVICTION NOTICES ON TENTS.

WILL PEOPLE BE THREATENED WITH ARREST.

AND THE ANSWER IS THAT PEOPLE WILL STILL HAVE TO LEAVE UNDER THREAT OF ARREST.

AND YOU KNOW, SHE SAID THAT IT WILL BE DIFFERENT BECAUSE IT IS A VERY, THEY ARE ACTUALLY GIVING THEM REASONABLE PLACES TO GO.

APPARENTLY THEY DID A SURVEY WHERE OVER 90 PERCENT OF PEOPLE LIVING THERE SAID THEY DON'T WANT TO BE THERE ANY MORE.

SO THEY ARE HOPING TO FIND TRANSATION-- TRANSITIONAL HOUSING AS A BETTER SOLUTION RATHER THAN CONGREGATE SHELTER.

BUT IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN HOW IT WILL ACTUALLY WORK WHEN, IF AND WHEN PEOPLE DECIDE THAT THEY DO WANT TO STAY IN ENCAMPMENTS.

>> O'Connell: CAROL, MY TAKE ON THIS IS OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE DON'T TWANT TO BE THERE.

I LIVE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD SO I'M PASSING THERE ONCE OR TWICE A DAY AND IT IS DANGEROUS FOR ANYONE.

I DON'T THINK ANYONE WILL ARGUE THAT, THAT IT IS SAFE FOR ANYONE.

IT ST DANGEROUS FOR THE PEOPLE THERE, IT IS DANGEROUS FOR DRIVERS.

MY LANDLORD ALMOST HIT SOMEBODY NOT LONG AGO WHO WAS IN THE STREET.

BUT WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE WE CAN'T FORCE PEOPLE INTO TREATMENT.

AND WE CAN'T FORCE PEOPLE TO DO SOMETHING THAT THEY REALLY DON'T WANT TO DO.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION IT TO WU'S PLAN?

WHAT IS THE ACLU REACTION TO HER PLAN THAT SHE JUST PRESENTED?

>> I THANK YOU, SUE, GREAT TO BE HERE.

YOU KNOW, THE ACLU AND OUR COALITION PARTNERS HAVE MADE CLEAR AT THE VERY BEGINNING THAT WE NEED TO TAKE A PUBLIC HEALTH, EQUITY CENTERED APPROACH TO ADDRESSING THE INTERSECTION OF CRISES AT MASS AND CASS.

SO WE ARE REALLY-- WE WELCOME MAYOR WU'S PROPOSALS TO TAKE THAT KIND OF A PUBLIC HEALTH AND EQUITY-CENTERED APPROACH.

AND SPECIFICALLY TO TAKE STEPS TO ACTUALLY CREATE VIABLE HOUSING OPTIONS FOR PEOPLE.

SO THE ACLU, WE ARE CONTINUING TO MONITOR THE JAITION ON THE GROUND AND TO EN-- ENSURE THAT PROMISES ARE KEPT, THAT THE PROPOSED PLACEMENT, PARTICULARLY THAT THEY ACCOMMODATE PEOPLE THAT HAVE DISABILITIES AND OTHER MEDICAL ISSUES.

BUT I THINK THIS NEW FRAMEWORK THAT THE MAYOR IS TALKING ABOUT IS REALLY A WELCOME, AS SHE SAID A TRANSFORMATIONAL CHANGE.

>> O'Connell: TORI, THERE HAS BEEN A NUMBER OF SWINGS AND MISSES HERE SINCE THE BRIDGE, THE LONG ISLAND BRIDGE WAS CLOSED AND THESE SERVICES WERE MOVED.

I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT MOSTLY THEY WERE GOOD INTENTIONED, BY ALWAYS MISSED THE MARK.

AND MI JUST WONDERING IF YOU GET, YOU'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME THERE ON THE GROUND TALKING TO FOLKS AND BEING INVOLVED AND TALKING WITH THE COMMUNITY THAT IS ESTABLISHED THERE.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT JUST A BOSTON PROBLEM.

THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE WHO HAVE COME FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, NOT JUST ALL OVER MASSACHUSETTS, BUT FOR AS FAR AWAY AS NEW JERSEY, FLORIDA.

DO YOU, ARE YOU WONDERING WHY THE STATE HASN'T TAKEN MORE OF AN APPROACH OR THE REGION OR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO TAKE AN APPROACH TO THEP WITH THIS CHALLENGE THAT WE HAVE TO GET THESE PEOPLE SERVICES?

>> I HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE SPECIFIC NUMBER, I BELIEVE IT IS 26 PERCENT COME FROM OUTSIDE OF BOSTON.

>> O'Connell: YEAH.

>> YEAH, AND YEAH, I THINK PART OF THE ISSUE, I MEAN I DID REPORTING BACK WHEN LONG ISLAND WAS OPEN.

OBVIOUSLY THE SHELTER CLOSED IN 2014 BECAUSE THE BRIDGE WAS NO LONGER USABLE AND THE STATE SAID OKAY, WE CAN'T USE THE SHELTER.

AND BACK THEN PEOPLE WERE KIND OF PUSHED OUT INTO THE CITY.

SO WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TRACK AND MONITOR IS WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE, HOW CAN THEY KEEP TABS ON PEOPLE, HOW CAN THEY ENSURE THAT PEOPLE ARE SAFE AND HOW CAN THEY MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY FIGGING OUT WHERE THESE MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY END UP.

AND THAT THEY ARE IN, THAT THEY ARE NOT IN INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS SITUATIONS.

I THINK THAT OBVIOUSLY THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF COLLABORATION IN FINDING TEMPORARY HOUSING FROM THE SHATTUCK HOSPITAL CAMPUS, IT IS A STATE LEAD EFFORT AND UP TO 30 PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO LIVE THERE, THEY WILL ALSO HAVE DIFFERENT FACILITIES THAT PEOPLE CAN USE WHO DON'T NECESSARILY LIVE THERE.

YOU KNOW, I STHI THERE HAS BEEN SOME TALK OF SHELTERS IN CHARLESTOWN AND JAMAICA PLAIN AND OTHER NEIGHBORHOODS.

I DO THINK THERE IS AN EFFORT TO SPREAD THINGS OUT.

AND I ULTIMATELY THINK THAT THIS INITIATIVE BY MAYOR WU, THE AIM IS THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE POPULATION THAT IS VERY SENSITIVE, THAT INTERSECTION OF, YOU KNOW, MENTAL HEALTH NEEDS, PLUS SUB TANS USE NEEDS PLUS PTSD FROM BEING ON THE STREET FOR A LONG TIME BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE DAY YOU ARE OUT THERE, I THINK THAT AFFECTS YOU.

THERE IS SO MUCH TRAUMA.

SO THERE IS A COMMUNITY THAT REALLY NEEDS STABLIZATION NOW.

AND THEN THE GOAL IS TO MOVE THEM ON TO A DIFFERENT AREA WHERE THEY CAN FIND MORE PERMANENT HOUSING LATER.

>> I JUST WANT TO SAY HISTORICALLY ABOUT LONG ISLAND, WU SAID THEIR STEAF WAS THERE AFFECTING IT TO SEE IF IT COULD BE USED AS A SHELTER, I THINK A LOT OF THE CRITICISM ABOUT THAT WHICH THE WU ADMINISTRATION HAD PREVIOUSLY ECHOED WAS IT WAS THE SAME IDEA OF PUSHING PEOPLE OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND.

PUSHING PEOPLE TO AN ISLAND OR TO TAYE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT YOU KNOW WAS JUST KIND OF LARGELY UNDERRESOURCED IN GENERAL.

SO I THINK PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO SEE A REPEAT OF THAT.

>> YOU AND I ARE OLD ENOUGH TO TRER WHEN PEOPLE WERE REGULARLY PUT INTO INSTITUTIONS AGAINST THEIR WILL FOR TREATMENT, THEY DIDN'T WANT.

AND THERE WAS A REACTION TO THAT.

AND I TALKED TO A LOT OF FOLKS WHO HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS STRUGGLING WITH ADDICTION.

YOU THINK WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR NOW, THAT IT IS TOO HARD TO GET PEOPLE AT LEAST INTO SOME TREATMENT.

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON THAT.

WHERE SHOULD WE BE WORKING TOWARDS?

>> I THINK THERE HAS TO BE A BALANCE BETWEEN A PUBLIC HEALTH AND EQUITY APPROACH AND ALSO PROTECTING PEOPLE'S DUE PROCESS RIGHTS.

THE GOVERNMENT, YOU CAN'T JUST ARREST YOUR WAY OUT OF POVERTY OR HOMELESSNESS OR SUBSTANCE USE DISOR ORDER OR MENTAL HEALTH.

I WAS STRUCK BY MAYOR WU'S COMMENTS WHEN SHE SPOKE ABOUT HER OWN MOTHER'S MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND THE BARRIERS THAT SHE FACED BECAUSE OF THAT.

SO THE FACT THAT THE MAYOR IS ACTUALLY FRAMING THIS WITH A PERSONAL AND POLITICAL COMMITMENT TO TAKING THIS PUBLIC HEALTH EQUITY APPROACH ALONG WITH THE DUE PROCESS PROTECTIONS IS I THINK REALLY HEALTHY.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHY WE ALL NEED TO COME TOGETHER.

BECAUSE WHEN YOU TAKE THAT KIND OF AN APPROACH IT REALLY ENHANCES PUBLIC SAFETY.

NOT JUST FOR THE PEOPLE ON THE STREETS BUT FOR EVERYBODY IN THE SURROUNDING NEIGHBORHOODS AS WELL.

AND SO I REALLY THINK THIS IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

ALTHOUGH OF COURSE ACLU WILL CONTINUE TO MONITOR TO MAKE SURE THE ACTUAL IMPLEMENTATION MATCHES THE WORDS.

>> O'Connell: THE IDEA OF THE COURT BEING HELD AT THE JAIL THAT WAS RIGHT THERE.

THAT DIDN'T TURN OUT TO WORK OUT SO WELL, AGAIN, ANOTHER BIG SWING AND A MISS WITH A GOOD INTENTION BEHIND IT.

TORI, I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE LOW THRESHHOLD HOUSING AND TREATMENT.

A LOT OF FOLKS SAY WELL WHY DON'T THEY JUST GO TO PINE STREET, OR WHY DON'T THEY JUST GO SHALL CAN-- THEY ARE EMPTY BEDS, WHY AREN'T THEY THERE.

YOU HE LOO UDED TO IT ABOUT THE TREATMENT CHALLENGES THAT THEY HAVE.

BUT IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE IN CRISIS HAVE SOME PLACE THAT THEY CAN GO THAT WON'T DENY THEM ACCESS BECAUSE THEY ARE IN CRISIS.

>> THESE ENVIRONMENTS, I MEAN IT IS A GENERALIZATION, I THINK A LOT OF SHELTERS DO REALLY TRY TO DO IT RIGHT.

AND MAKE PEOPLE FEEL RESPECTED.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES OF YUN STAFFING AS WELL WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT THE ADMINISTRATION WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH, GETTING FOLKS WHO ACTUALLY WANT TO BE THERE, AND HAVE NOT BEEN TRAUMATIZED IN TO INSENSITIVITIES THEMSELVES.

BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE SAID THAT IN A SHELTER ENVIRONMENT THEY FEEL KIND OF VIOLATED.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANY PRIVACY.

ANY TIME THEY BRING ANY POSSESSIONS IN, ANYTHING, IT GETS STOLEN.

SECURITY GUARDS REFUSE TO CHECK THE CAMERAS.

THEY WILL KICK PEOPLE OUT FOR DEFENDING THEMSELVES AGAINST ATTACKS.

I THINK THAT LOW THRESHHOLD HOUSING ALSO INCLUDES PEOPLE IN ACTIVE ADDICTION SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS ANOTHER BARRIER THAT PREVENTS PEOPLE FROM GOING INTO CONGREGATE SHELTER SETTINGS, BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE IT IS TOO DIFFICULT TO DETOX IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

OFTEN THERE ARE OTHER BARRIERS THAT PREVENT FROM GOING INTO DETOX.

YOU MENTIONED BEING OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER WHEN PEOPLE WERE INVOLUNTARILY COMMITTED.

THAT STILL HAPPENS, IT HAPPENED AFTER THE JAIL COURT.

I KNOW YOU MEAN SOMETHING SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BUT THERE WAS RESEARCH FROM THE STATE FROM TO 16 THAT SHOWED THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLUNTARILY COMMITTED OR INVOLUNTARILY PUT INTO TREATMENT, THEY ARE 2.2 TIMES AS LIKELY, MORE LIKELY TO DIE FROM AN OVERDOSE THAN THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO GO IN.

>> RIGHT.

>> IT REALLY DOES.

>> FOR A MIRED YAD OF REASONS THAT COME FROM THAT.

WELL, I APPRECIATE BOTH OF YOU AND YOUR EXPERTISE.

THE ACLU OF MASSACHUSETTS, CAROL ROSE AND GBH'S TORI BEDFORD, THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> O'Connell: SIX YEARS AGO ALMOST TO THE DAY THEN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE DONALD TRUMP MADE THIS INFAMOUS DECLARATION.

>> DONE ALL J TRUMP IS CALLING FOR A TOTAL AND COMPLETE SHUT DOWN OF MUSES LIMBS ENTERING THE UNITED STATES.

>> >> O'Connell: AS DISTURBING AS CALL THAT WAS IT WAS PRETTY ON-BRAND FOR THE MAN WHO'D CASHED IN ON BIRTHERISM AND ANTI-IMMIGRANT FERVOR TO BUILD HIS FOLLOWING AND IT WAS THAT KIND OF BLUNT DEMONIZATION OF AN ENTIRE RELIGION AND CULTURE THAT HELPED PAVE THE WAY FOR AMERICANS HARBORING THEIR OWN HATE TO BRING IT OUT INTO THE OPEN.

IT WAS WITHIN THAT CONTEXT THAT THREE KANSAS MEN WHO WERE MEMBERS OF A RIGHT-WING MILITIA AND ALSO SUPER-FANS OF DONALD TRUMP PLOTTED IN EARLY 2016 TO CARRY OUT A TERRORIST ATTACK ON MUSLIM SOMALI REFUGEES LIVING IN GARDEN CITY.

THEIR AIM WAS TO KILL AS MANY AS POSSIBLE DURING THE BUSY FRIDAY PRAYER TIME BUT ON THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION, SO AS NOT TO HURT TRUMP'S CHANCES OF BECOMING PRESIDENT.

THE STORY OF THE WOULD-BE DOMESTIC ATTACK AND HOW IT WAS FOILED BY AN F.B.I.

INFORMANT IS THE SUBJECT OF THE NEW BOOK, "WHITE HOT HATE," BY B.U.

JOURNALISM PROFESSOR, DICK LEHR, WHO JOINS ME NOW.

DIK, WELCOMEK CONDITION IMRAT LAYINGS ON THE BOOK, IT IS A PAGE TURNER AS YOURS USUALLY ARE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> YEAH, THANKS FOR HAVING ME T IS GREAT TO BE BACK WITH GREATER BOSTONS TON.

>> O'Connell: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT GARDEN CITY, WOULD YOU PAINT THE PICTURE FOR WHAT THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT OF IMMIGRATION IN GARDEN CITY IS AND WHERE IT WAS IN 2016?

>> SURE.

GARDEN IT CITY IS A FASCINATING SMALL COMMUNITY IN SOUTHWEST KANSAS.

REALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE.

WHAT MAKES IT SO FASCINATING IS THAT FOR DECADES IT'S BEEN THE DESTINATION FOR STREAMS OF IMMIGRANTS, REFUGEES, WHO HAVE BEEN MOVING TO THAT AREA BECAUSE OF THE GIANT MEAT PACKING PLANTS SURROUNDING GARDEN CITY WHERE THERE IS LOTS OF WORK, AROUND THE CLOCK SHIFTS.

AND YOU GO BACK AND OF COURSE IN THAT PART OF THE COUNTRY, EARLY ON IT IT WAS MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS WHO WERE FILLING UP THE JOBS AND WHATNOT.

IN THE '70S, THERE WAS A HUGE INFLUX OF VIETNAMESE WHO WERE FLEEING VEAT NAM AFTER THE FALL OF SAIGON IN THE MID '70S.

AND MORE RECENTLY FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF AFRICAN REFUGEES AND IN PARTICULAR SOMALI REFUGEES.

WHO HAVE BEEN FLOCKING TO GARDEN CITY FILLING UP APARTMENT HOUSES, LIVING TOGETHER AND CREATING A COMMUNITY.

AND GETTING JOBS AT THOSE MEAT PACKING PLANTS.

IT ST-- GARDEN IT CITY HAS BECOME KNOWN AS A MULTICULTURAL MECCA, OF SORTS MUCH AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A PART OF THE COUNTRY IS LARGELY CAUCASION DOMINATED.

AND HERE YOU HAVE A COMMUNITY WHERE SEVERAL DOZEN LANGUAGES ARE SPOKEN IN THE HIGH SCHOOL, AND WHICH AROUND THE TURN OF THE CENTURY, HAD ALWAYS BEEN, YOU KNOW, LARGELY CAUCASION IN TERMS OF ITS DEMOGRAPHICS, IT BECAME A MINORITY/MAJORITY COMMUNITY.

>> O'Connell: YOU START THE BOOK OFF WITH THE PULSE NIGHTCLUB SHOOTING AND THE REACTION THAT SOME IN THAT AREA HAD TO THAT SHOOTING.

TALK ABOUT WHAT THE PLOT, THIS HORRIFIC, HORRIFIC PLOT, I DON'T THINK WE CAN SAY ENOUGH HOW TERRIBLE HAD THIS BEEN SUCCESSFUL, WHAT A TERRIBLE OUTCOME WE WOULD HAVE HAD IN THE UNITED STATES FROM THIS DOMESTIC TERRORISM ATTACK.

IT IS A BIT OF A GOOD NEWS STORY IN THAT IT WAS THWARTED.

BUT TALK ABOUT WHAT THE PLOT WAS THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS HAD.

>> OH MY GOSH T IS KIND OF JAW DROPPING, HORRIFYING STUFF, THOSE THREE MEN YOU FEATURED, PHOTOGRAPHS YOU FEATURED AT THE START, WERE THESE WHITE NATIONALIST, FAR RIGHT EXTREMISTS WHO BELONG TO A MILITIA, THEY SELF-ANNOINTED THEMSELVES THE CRUSADERS.

AND THEY BELIEVED THAT THE MUSLIMS, THE SOMALIS, EVERY ONE OF THEM WAS ACTUALLY A MEMBER OF ISIS IN PLAIN SIGHT, AND IN SOME WAYS HEEDING CANDIDATE DONALD TRUMP'S, YOU KNOW, CALL FOR A BAN ON MUSLIMS.

THEY DECIDED THAT NO, WE HAVE TO TAKE THIS A STEP FURTHER.

IT IS GREAT THAT WE'RE GOING TO KEEP THEM OUT OF THE COUNTRY BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ONES WHO ARE ALREADY HERE.

AND LET'S START IF GARDEN CITY BY EXTERMINATING THEM.

THESE MEN CALLED THE SOMALI COCKROACHES AND YOU CAN'T JUST KILL ONE, YOU HAVE TO KILL THEM ALL OR THEY WILL COME BACK.

SO THAT IS THE PULSE NIGHTCLUB WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, A HORRIFIC TERRORIST ATTACK BY AN ISIS-INSPIRED SHOOTER, WAS FOR THEM ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

THAT WAS THEIR, YOU KNOW, TIPPING POINT.

THEY HAD DE STYEDED THAT WE CAN NO LONGER BE WHAT THEY CALL KEYBOARD PATRIOTS.

WE HAVE TO TAKE ACTION.

AND THEY BEGAN DEVICING A PLAN TO BUILD HOMEMADE EXPLOSIVES, ALONG THE LINES OF TIMOTHY McVEY IN OKLAHOMA CITY, AND PLANT BOMBS AROUND THE APARTMENT COMPLEX WHERE MOST OF THE SOMALIS LIVED AND HOPED TO BLOW THEM ALL TO SMITHER EVENS, OF ALL AGES.

>> O'Connell: I WANT TO TREAD AN EXCERPT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK, ONE OF THE WOULD-BE TERRORIST CALLS DAN DAY WHO WE WILL TALK ABOUT IN JUST A MINUTE WHO BY AT THIS POINT WAS AN FB, INFORMANT, AFTER THAT ORLANDO CLUB SHOOTING IN 2016.

>> O'Connell: FOR MONTHS, PATRICK HAD TALKED ABOUT TAKING ACTION, BUT IN THE WAKE OF ORLANDO IT SEEMED SOME KIND OF SWITCH INSIDE HIM HAD FLIPPED.

THE TIME HAD FINALLY COME, AS PATRICK KEPT SAYING, TO STOP THE MUSLIMS, "SOMEWHERE, SOMETIME, SOMEHOW, SOMEWAY."

SURE, TRUMP YAKKED ABOUT PREVENTING MUSLIMS FROM ENTERING THE COUNTRY AT THE BORDERS.

PATRICK HAD NO ARGUMENT WITH THAT, BUT HE AND OTHERS WERE THINKING THEY NEEDED TO GO FURTHER-- TOWARD OUTRIGHT EXPULSION, OR, EVEN BETTER, EXTERMINATION.

JUST A CHILLING, CHILLING POINT OF VIEW.

TALK ABOUT ONE OF THE HEROES OF THE BOOK, DAN CAY WHO BECAME AN FRK BI INFORMANT, I'M NOT A RELIGIOUS PERSON BUT I KNOW HE WAS MOTIVATED BY GOD AND GOD TELLING HIM THAT HE WOULD BE IN THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME.

I HAVE A HARD TIME ARGUING WITH THE FACT THAT HE WAS, INDEED, THE RIGHT PERSON AT THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME.

>> OH YEAH, NO, I MEAN HE CERTAINLY DID THE RIGHT THING AND HE PUT HIS LIFE ON THE LINE A COUPLE OF TIMES WITH SOME VERY DRAMATIC MOMENTS OVER THE COURSE OF THE TEN MONTHS WHEN HE WAS WORKING AS AN FBI INFORMANT.

YOU KNOW, HE IS A LIFELONG KANSAN, AN ARDENT SECOND AMENDMENT ADVOCATE AND HE ALWAYS CARRIES.

HE HAS WHAT HE CALLS A POCKET CARRY, HE BELIEVES IN GUNS BUT HE ALSO JUST AS IMPORTANTLY BELIEVES IN GUN SAFETY.

AND HE BECAME, YOU KNOW, HE INFILTRATED THE MILITIA AT THE BEHEST OF SOME OF THE LOCAL FBISH AGENCIES IN A VERY BENIGN CASUAL WAY IN THE BEGINNING.

THEY JUST NEEDED SOMEONE TO SERVE AS THEIR EYES AND EARS, SO AT THE FRONT END OF THIS HE HAD NO IDEA IT WAS GOING TO GO SO DARK AND DEEP AND THAT HIS LIFE WOULD BE ON THE LINE.

BUT IF NOT FOR DAN, I MEAN HE'S A REAL HERO, BECAUSE WHEN HE STUMBLED INTO THIS SORT OF SMALLER CELL OF CRUSADERS, HE BEFRIENDED HIM AND HE BEGAN CARRYING TO THESE MEETINGS, A RECORDING DEVICE SO THAT HE RECORDED HOURS AND HOURS OF THE CONSPIRACY, AND ALSO THIS HATEFUL ISLAMOPHOBIC RHETORIC THAT WENT ALL DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS FROM PATRICK STEIN AND HIS COHORTS, SO THAT IN THE END, THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT THE BOMBS DID NOT GO OFF.

IN THE END IT IT WAS, AND WHEN THESE MEN WENT TO TRIAL, THEY WERE CONVICTED BY THEIR OWN WORDS.

AND THAT BECAME AN INVALUABLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE.

BUT IT WAS HAIR-RAISING ALONG THE WAY, FOR SURE.

>> O'Connell: I WAS GOING TO POINT OUT, OBVIOUSLY AS FOLKS HAVE READ YOUR BOOKS IN THE PAST, THEY KNOW THE GREAT DETAIL THAT YOU ADD TO YOUR STORYTELLING.

FACTUALLY, I MEAN THERE IS ONE SCENE IN THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK WHERE DAN IS DEHYDRATED FROM STUFF HE DID THE DAY BEFORE AND HE PASSES OUT WHEN HE IS UNDERCOVER AND HE IS AFRAID THEY WILL FIND THE TAPE RECORDER THAT HE IS BRINGING WITH THEM AS THEY TAKE HIM TO THE HOSPITAL, AND THAT KEEPS HAPPENING, AND THE DANGER, THESE FOLK ARE IN JAIL BUT HE'S STILL IN, HE PUT HIS LIFE ON THE LINE TO PROTECT THIS COUNTRY.

>> OH, HE DID, YEAH, YEAH.

AND YOU KNOW, HE KIND OF, HE IS SUCH A HUMBLE, SOFT SPOKEN GUY.

HE JUST FELT IT NEEDED TO IT BE DONE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN IT KEPT GETTING DARKER AND MORE SERIOUS AND MORE DANGEROUS, SURE HE HAD, YOU KNOW, HE WAS STRESSED OUT TO NO END.

BUT HE JUST KEPT GOING FORWARD.

AND YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS SO ATTRACTIVE TO ME TO GET INTO THE STORY WHEN I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY, YOU KNOW, AT ITS CORE IT IT IS A TRUE CRIME STORY, YOU HAVE THIS DRAMATIC BOMB PLOT BUT IT'S ALSO A STORY THAT IS SO TIMELY AND IN OUR MOMENT.

SHOWCASING THE FAR RIGHT EXTREMISM THAT BECOMES SO MUCH OF AN ISSUE IN AMERICA, THE WHITE NATIONALISM, IT IS ABOUT THE CANDIDATE TRUMP'S RISE TO POWER.

IT IS ABOUT THE FEAR AND BIGOTRY THAT IS CONSUMING AMERICA, THAT WE SAW ON FULL DISPLAY JANUARY 6th.

THIS IS A HUGE PRECURSOR TO THAT, THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

IT IS ABOUT FACEBOOK AND SOCIAL MEDIA.

YOU KNOW, THAT IS A THEME IN THE BOOK IS HOW THEY FOUND EACH OTHER ON FACEBOOK.

IT IT SUSTAINED THEM THROUGHOUT THEIR, YOU KNOW, THEIR EVOLUTION AND DEVELOPING OF THIS BOMB PLOT.

SO MUCH CURRENT GOING ON HERE.

>> O'Connell: IT IS AMAZING TO ME.

WE CERTAINLY, OUR AMERICAN HISTORY IS FILLED WITH DOMESTIC TERRORISM, YOU KNOW, THE KKK DIDN'T NEED FACEBOOK IN ORDER TO GET TOGETHER.

AND COMMIT THE ATROCITIES THAT THEY COMMITTED BUT AT THE SAME TIME THERE SEEMS IN THE MODERN DAY THAT A LOT OF THESE FOLKS WOULD JUST BE YELLING AT A BAR SOMEWHERE, BUT FACEBOOK AND SOCIAL MEDIA ALLOWS THEM TO COME TOGETHER AND AS, YOU KNOW, THE NAME OF THE BOOK "WHITE HOT HATE" ALLOWS IT TO SORT OF BE IMUSSABLE IN A WAY THAT ACCELERATES IT TO SUCH A DANGEROUS STATE.

>> I COULDN'T SUMMARIZE ANY BETTER.

YOU SHOULD WRITE A JACKET COPY FOR ME.

>> O'Connell: YOU CAN HAVE IT, THAT IS FOR YOU FOR FREE, HAPPY HOLIDAYS.

BUT IT IS REALLY JUST STUNNING THAT IN 2016 THAT IS WHAT WAS MOVING, AND DONALD TRUMP, OF COURSE.

YOU CAN'T DENY HIS ROLE IN THIS STORY.

>> NOT AT ALL, THESE TBIES ARE BIG FANS OF HIS.

AND AGAIN IT'S THE KIND OF THING, IT EMBOLDENED THEM.

AND YOU CAN JUST HEAR IT WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THE CASE, THE JAW DROPPING HATE THAT THEY SPEW.

AND JUST FEELING THAT THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, THE TRUE PATRIOTS TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.

>> O'Connell: YOU KNOW STILL IN THE MEDIA WE PAY ATTENTION WHENEVER THERE IS A TERRORIST ATTACK, WE LOOK AT IT AS AN OUTSIDER AND I'M USING FINNER QUOTES ON THAT.

WHEN THE GREATEST LET IS DOMESTIC TERRORISM, DO YOU THINK THAT WE ARE AT A TIPPING POINT AT LEAST NOW AFTER JANUARY 6th, AFTER CHARLOTTESVILLE, AFTER TIME AND TIME AGAIN WE'RE SEEING THE GREATEST THREAT, YOU KNOW, THE CALL IS COMING FROM WITHIN THE HOUSE, ARE WE AT A POINT NOW WHERE WE CAN PAY ATTENTION TO THAT AND IS THE FBI PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT.

>> FINALLY YES, THE FBI CERTAINLY IS.

I MEAN LAST YEAR OF THE FBI DIRECTOR ACKNOWLEDGED AND CALLED DOMESTIC TERRORISM RIGHT NOW THE NUMBER ONE THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY.

THAT IS A BIG PIVOT FROM, YOU KNOW, 2016 WHEN THIS PLOT WAS UNFOLDED.

THE VERY SAME YEAR THAT THESE MEN WERE CON-- CONSPIRING TO BUILD BOMBS TO KILL SOMALI REFUGEES, THE FBI DIRECTOR WAS TELLING CONGRESS THAT ISIS AND AL-QAEDA, YOU KNOW, ARE THE BURROW'S NUMBER ONE PRIORITY AND THE BIGGEST LET TO NATIONAL SECURITY.

I'M NOT DENYING THAT THAT IS A PROBLEM AND THAT IS A THREAT, BUT THERE WAS NO MENTION OF DOMESTIC TERRORIST LET THAT WAS BEYOND SMOLDERING IN AMERICA.

AND AGENTS OUT IN THE FIELD WERE AWARE OF IT IT AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WORK SOUNDING THE ALARM BUT I DON'T THINK IT THIS SHOW NOT REACHED THE HIGHEST LEVELS OR IF IT HAD THEY DIDN'T WANT TO TACK KNOWLEDGE IT PUBLICLY YET.

>> HOW IS THE COMMUNITY IN GARDEN CITY NOW, HOW ARE THE SOMALIS, SOMALI AMERICANS AND COMMUNITY AT LARGE AFTER THIS NEAR MISS BUT STIRL A TERRIBLE WOUND TO THE COMMUNITY?

>> YOU KNOW, IT THRIVES, IN SOME WAYS THE THREAT, BECAUSE IN THE END IT WAS JUST A THREAT, THE PLOT WAS THWARTED.

BUT THINGS HUNG IN THE BALANCE.

IT IT WAS SORT OF FASCINATING IN LOOKING AT IT IT AND STUDYING AND WRITING ABOUT IT IT WAS YOU KNOW, WHEN THE MEN WERE ARRESTED AND KNEWS-- NEWS GOT OUT THAT THEY WERE GETTING CLOSE TO FINISHING THEIR BOMB SO THAT THEY COULD KILL THE SOMALISK THINGS HUNG IN THE BALANCE.

AND IF THE BOMB WENT OFF, THAT IS HOW I FELT ABOUT IT T BECAUSE THE SOMALIS WERE FRIGHTENED, SOME WERE LEAVING.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED.

THE PLOTTERS WANTED THEM DEAD, BUT JUST GET THEM OUT OF HERE, YOU KNOW.

AND THE COMMUNITY RALLIED.

THEY HELD PUBLIC RALLIES SAYING NO.

THIS IS HATE THAT IS NOT PART OF US.

YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, WE WANT YOU HERE.

AND SO WHETHER IT WAS THE POLICE CHIEF OR THE CITY MANAGER, AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF MEMBERS IN THE COMMUNITY, THEY MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THE SOMALI POPULATION WAS WELCOME IN GARDEN CITY.

AND I THINK THAT'S HELPED, YOU KNOW, IT STILL BECOMES A DESTINATION, A POPULAR PLACE FOR NEWCOMERS TO THIS COUNTRY TO GO TO FIND A COMMUNITY, BUT ALSO FIND LOTS OF WORK.

>> O'Connell: IT IS A GREAT BOOKK I HAVEN'T FINISHED IT YET BUT I ABSOLUTELY INTEND TO.

WHITE HOT HATE IS THE BOOK, ANOTHER MASTER PIECE FROM YOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, AND HAPPY HOLIDAY IT TO YOU.

>> YOU TOO, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> O'Connell: THE BOOK AGAIN IS "WHILE HOT HATE" A TRUE STORY OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM IN AMERICA'S HEARTLAND.

COME BACK TOMORROW FOR TALKING POLITICS, THE GBH NEWS POLITICAL TEAM WILL TAKE STOCK AT THE END OF THE YEAR STORIES IN THE MASSACHUSETTS POLITICAL SPHERE AND WHAT TO WATCH IN THE NEW YEAR, FROM BOSTON MAYOR MICHELLE WUR'S TOP PRIORITY TO GOVERNOR BAKER'S PUSH TO END HIS TENURE ON A HIGH NOTE EVEN IF THE LEGISLATURE MAY HAVE OTHER IDEAS.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org