>> REILLY: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I'M ADAM REILLY, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

CHARLIE BAKER IS OUT OF THE 2022 GOVERNOR'S RACE.

SO WHO'S IN, WHO'S NEXT, AND WHY IS ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR GOVERNORS IN THE NATION CALLING IT QUITS?

WE'LL DIVE INTO ALL OF THAT.

THEN, LATER, CNN SUSPENDED CHRIS CUOMO AFTER NETWORK EXECS FOUND OUT HE USED HIS POSITION TO HELP HIS BROTHER-- EX-GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO-- BEAT BACK SEXUAL ASSAULT AND HARASSMENT ACCUSATIONS.

SO IS IT THE END FOR HIM AND HOW MUCH BLAME DOES THE NETWORK BEAR, AFTER ENCOURAGING A COZY ON-AIR RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO?

>> REILLY: AFTER MONTHS, IF NOT YEARS OF SPECULATION, GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER FINALLY TOLD US- TODAY HE WILL NOT BE RUNNING FOR A THIRD TERM AND HIS HEIR-APPARENT, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR KARYN POLITO, WOULDN'T BE RUNNING EITHER.

>> IT WAS, IN FACT, A VERY COMPLCATED AND DIFFICULT DECISION.

THERE IS A TON OF WORK LEFT TO BE DONE AS WE COME OUT OF THIS PANDEMIC AND WE BELIEVE IT'S MOST IMPORTANT THAT WE SPEND THE NEXT YEAR FOCUSING ON THAT AND NOT FOCUSING ON, LET'S CALL IT THE DISCOURSE, AND THAT'S PROBABLY AN INSULT TO THE WORD DISCOURSE, THAT COMES WITH POLITICAL CAMPAIGNING.

>> REILLY: AND WHILE THAT MAY BE TRUE, THE DECISION ALSO COMES AMID RISING PRESSURE FROM WITHIN THEIR OWN PARTY.

BECAUSE WHILE BAKER IS STILL ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR GOVERNORS IN THE COUNTRY, OVERALL, HE'S NOT EXACTLY BEEN GETTING GLOWING REVIEWS FROM A LOT OF REPUBLICANS IN THE STATE, MANY OF WHOM HAVE SHIFTED FURTHER RIGHT IN THE TRUMP ERA.

AND IT'S WORTH NOTHING THAT DESPITE HIS HIGH OVERALL MARKS, BAKER'S TENURE HAS NOT BEEN CONTROVERSY-FREE, EITHER-- WITH THE DEADLY HOLYOKE SOLDIERS' HOME COVID OUTBREAK, A SERIES OF ISSUES WITH THE STATE'S VACCINE ROLL-OUT, THE RMV AND POLICE OVERTIME SCANDALS AND PLENTY OF MBTA OVERSIGHT PROBLEMS, TO NAME A FEW.

SO, EVEN BEFORE TODAY'S ANNOUNCEMENT, THE WOULD-HAVE-BEEN-CHALLENGERS WERE LINING UP.

FORMER STATE REP GEOFF DIEHL, WHO TRIED AND FAILED TO UNSEAT SENATOR ELIZABETH WARREN IN 2018, IS THE ONLY REPUBLICAN OFFICIALLY IN THE RACE SO FAR.

FOR THE DEMOCRATS, LONGTIME STATE SENATOR SONIA CHANG-DIAZ, HARVARD PROFESSOR DANIELLE ALLEN AND FORMER STATE SENATOR BEN DOWNING ARE ALL IN THE RUNNING, TOO.

AND WITH BAKER OUT OF THE MIX, POLITOPHILES ARE WAITING AND WATCHING FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL MAURA HEALEY'S NEXT MOVE, AS SHE'S LONG BEEN RUMORED TO BE CONSIDERING A RUN.

I'M JOINED NOW BY LISA KASHINKSY, THE AUTHOR OF THE POLITICO MASSACHUSETTS PLAYBOOK AND SHANNON JENKINS, PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AND ASSOCIATE DEAN OF THE COLLEGE OF ARTS AND SCIENCES AT UMASS DARTMOUTH.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR MAKING TIME TO BE HERE.

LISA, LET ME START WITH YOU.

THE GOVERNOR HAD BEEN SAYING FOR A WHILE THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE MAKING A DECISION SOON, THAT HE WAS GETTING CLOSE.

BE THAT AT IT MAY, I FELT LIKE THIS DECISION HAPPENED REALLY QUICKLY AND ALSO DIDN'T PROVIDE THE OUTCOME A LOT OF US HAD BEEN EXPECTING.

HOW WIDELY FORESEEN WAS THE POSSIBILITY THAT NEITHER THE GOVERNOR THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WOULD SEEK A TERM IN 2022?

>> BAKER'S ALLIES, PEOPLE IN THE POLITICAL CHATTER IN MASSACHUSETTS, PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE HAVE BEEN GOING BACK AND FORTH FOR A LONTIME AS THE GOVERNOR WHETHER HE WOULD BE SEEKING A THIRD TERM AS WELL AS THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR RUNNING IN 2022.

HE WAS WRESTLING WITH THAT DECISION INTO THE THANKSGIVING HOLIDAY.

HE HAD HELD A FUNDRAISER A COUPLE OF DAYS BEFORE IN BOSTON, GRAPPLING WITH THE DECISION HEADING INTO THE HOLIDAY ACCORDING TO A SOURCE OF MINE, AND HE HUDDLED WITH HIS FAMILY, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR HUDDLED WITH HERSHEY AND SPOKE ABOUT THAT TODAY.

THEY CAME TO THE DECISION, TOLD THEIR ALLIES AND, YES, IT CAME VERY QUICKLY COMING BACK OFF THE THANKSGIVING HOLIDAY.

>> Reilly: YOU MENTIONED INSIGHT INTO THE GOVERNOR'S THOUGHT PROCESS.

WE SAW HIM TALKING ABOUT HOW THERE'S IMPORTANT WORK TO BE DONE HE DOESN'T WANT TO SEE POLITICIZED IN THE COMING YEAR.

HE MS TALKED IN A STATEMENT HE PUT OUT WITH THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF WORK-LIFE BALANCE SAYING TO DO THIS JOB WELL REQUIRES AN INCREDIBLE COMMITMENT, AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF TIME AND ENERGY AND, ON THE HEELS OF THE PANDEMIC, WE REALLY WANT TO SPEND TIME WITH OUR FAMILIES BECAUSE WE REALIZE HOW IMPORTANT THAT IS.

WE TALKED ABOUT PRESSURE INSIDE THE G.O.P.

WHAT THE YOUR SENSE OF, WHEN IT COPS TO CERTAIN FACTORS DRIVING THIS DECISION, THERE'S A FEW I JUST MENTIONED.

THERE'S OTHERS, I WAS TALKING WITH THE DEMOCRAT TODAY WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW HARD IT MUST HAVE BEEN TO HAVE PROTESTORS WHO HAVE A SOMEWHAT DISTORTED CONCEPTION OF REALITY.

YOU KNOW, STANDING IN FRONT OF HIS HOUSE, SAYING HE'S AN AGENT OF THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY AND SHOULD BE WATERBOARDED, IN THIS CONSTELLATION OF FACTORS WHAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT WHEN IT CAME TO HIM MAUCK MAKING THE CALL HE DID?

>> A LOT OF FACTORS AT PLAY.

THERE WERE PROTESTORS, AND THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT ANYONE WANTS TO EXPERIENCE, YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY WITHIN AND NEAR THEIR OWN HOME.

THERE WAS A SENSE OF HIS FAMILY.

HE TALKED ABOUT -- BOTH HE AND THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR TALKED ABOUT BEING PRESENT.

SOMETIMES HE WOULD BE HOME WITH HIS FAMILY BUT NOT REALLY THERE, SOMETHING WE CAN ALL RELATE TO SOMETIMES IN THESE BUSY TIMES.

BUT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT DEFINITELY WEIGHED ON HIS MIND.

THEIR KIDS ARE GETTING OLDER, THEY ARE GETTING OLDER.

THE GOVERNOR TALKED REPEATEDLY RECENTLY ABOUT TURNING 65 AND WHAT THAT MEANS AND YEAH, THERE ARE POLITICAL FACTORS AT PLAY.

HE BRUSHED THAT OFF TODAY AND HAS REPEATEDLY THE SEPARATION THAT HE WOULD HAVE RUN AS AN INDEPENDENT WITH THE TROUBLE HE COULD HAVE FACED IN A REPUBLICAN PRIMARY.

HE WAS ASKED SPECIFICALLY IF HE WAS, YOU KNOW, SHAKEN OR BOTHERED BY FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP ENDORSING GEOFF DIEHL, AND HE SAID, NO, NOT AT ALL.

HE SAID, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE THINK THE FACTIONS, THE FIGHTS WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY MAY HAVE PLAYED A ROLE IN THIS BUT THE GOVERNOR BRUSHED THAT ASIDE TODAY.

>> Reilly: SHANNON JENKINS, I SHOULD GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO SAY IF YOU SAW THIS COMING.

I WANT TO BE UP-FRONT AND SAY THIS IS NOT WHAT I EXPECTED.

ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THE DECISION THE GOVERNOR AND L.G.

ANNOUNCED?

>> I WAS MORE SURPRISED BY THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR THAN THE GOVERNOR'S ANNOUNCEMENT.

I COULD HAVE SEEN THE GOVERNOR'S ANNOUNCEMENT GOING EITHER WAY.

I DO AGREE THAT I THINK HE COULD HAVE WON.

I MEAN, I DON'T THINK THIS WAS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT HE COULD WIN, HE COULD HAVE WON AND I THINK YOU KNOW THAT.

I THINK THIS WAS AN INTENSELY PERSONAL DECISION FOR HIM.

WE'RE AT A TIME WHERE LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE QUITTING THEIR JOBS SO IT'S NOT SURPRISING TO ME THAT THE PERSON WHO HAS PROBABLY THE MOST STRESSFUL JOB IN THE STATE MULTIPLIED BY HOWEVER MUCH IN THE PANDEMIC IS CHOOSING TO STEP BACK, BUT, YOU KNOW, HE HAS A RECORD TO RUN ON.

HE WAS GOVERNOR FOR EIGHT YEARS.

HE'S ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR GOVERNORS IN AMERICA.

HE CAN STEP AWAY SAYING, YOU KNOW, I DID A LOT, I ACCOMPLISHED A LOT.

THERE'S LESS OF THAT WHEN YOU'RE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR.

YOU DON'T HAVE A RECORD.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHO KARYN POLITO IS.

FOR ME THE MORE SURPRISING ANNOUNCEMENT WAS THE FAC THAT KARYN POLITO SAID SHE WASN'T GOING TO RUN BECAUSE PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE EXPECTED HER TO ONE IF BAKER DECIDED NOT TO.

>> Reilly: I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT THE NUMBERS THAT CAPTURE THE DYNAMICS WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT AND, SHANNON, I WANT TO COME BACK TO YOU WITH A QUESTION.

A POLL WAS CONDUCTED BY THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR'S ASSOCIATION WHICH SHOWED THAT BAKER RUNNING A REPUBLICAN PRIMARY WAS GOING TO TRAIL GEOFF DIEHL, THE FORMER STATE REP WHO ALREADY ANNOUNCED HIS INTENTIONS, BY 2 IS POINTS, AND THAT SAME POLL WHICH WAS CONDUCTED, AGAIN, PI THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNORS ASSOCIATION, THAT SAME POLL FOUND THE GAP INCREASED TO 32% WHEN RESPONDENTS, LIKELY REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS WERE REMINDED THAT DIEHL HAS ALREADY BEEN ENDORSED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP.

ANOTHER POLL WHICH AGAIN I READ ABOUT IN YOUR NEWSLETTER LISA CONDUCTED BY NORTH WIND STRATEGIES, A DEMOCRAT FRIENDLY CONSULTING FIRM WHICH SHOWS RUNNING AS AN INDEPENDENT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE BAKER'S BEST PATH.

HE WAS LEADING IN A HYPOTHETICAL MATCHUP RUNNING AS INDEPENDENT, LEADING THE PATH, 32%.

MAURA HEALEY WAS GETTING 62% AND DIEHL 21.

SHANNON JENKINS, YOU AND I TALKED A WEEK OR TWO AGO ABOUT HOW IT LOOKED LIKE HIS BEST BET FOR A THIRD TERM IF HE WANTED ONE, IT MIGHT BE DIFFICULT PERSONALLY FOR BAKER TO DECIDE TO LEAVE THE G.O.P.

AND RUN AS A INDEPENDENT.

CAN YOU ELABORATE ON WHY THAT WOULD BE THE CASE IS THIS.

>> YOU KNOW, WE TEND TO THINK IN POLITICIANS IN TERMS OF PURE OPERATIVE DECISIONS BUT THEY ARE, IN FACT, HUMAN BEINGS WHO HAVE VALUES AND EMOTIONS.

AND AS WE TALKED ABOUT, PARTISANSHIP IS REALLY AN AEFFECT OF ATTACHMENT.

PEOPLE TEND TO IDENTIFY EMOTIONAL TIES WITH THEIR PARTY BEFORE THEIR POSITIONS.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AN EMOTIONAL HILL TO CLIMB TO WALK AWAY FROM THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE PARTY HE'S IDENTIFIED WITH HIS ENTIRE ADULT LIFE.

THAT'S DIFFICULT, AND I THINK FOR HIM IT WOULD ALSO REPRESENTATIVE SORT OF GIVING UP FOR THE SOUL OF THE MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND, SO, I DON'T THINK HE REALLY WANTED TO DO THAT.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, MAYBE I'M IN THE MINORITY HERE, BUT I DO THINK HE COULD HAVE WON AS A REPUBLICAN, RIGHT?

THAT LAST POLL SHOWED HONOR ROLE VOTERS ARE REALLY SORT OF HIS MEAT AND POTATOES AND HE COULD HAVE, I THOUGHT, BROUGHT THEM INTO THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY AND WON AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE PERSONAL CONSIDERATIONS CAME IN.

>> Reilly: ANOTHER FACTOR I HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT TILL OUR CONVERSATION WAS HIS FATHER WAS A REPUBLICAN OFFICIAL IN THE NIXON AND REAGAN ADMINISTRATION.

AS YOU'RE TURNING 65, TO YOUR POINT, LISA, TO REPUDIATE THE PARTY YOU'VE SPENT YOUR LIFE IN AND YOUR FATHER SPENT HIS LIFE IN, THAT'S A FAIRLY HEAVY THING.

LISA, THERE IS NOW, AS WE'VE MENTIONED, ONE REPUBLICAN CURRENTLY IN THE RACE, GEOFF DIEHL.

GEOFF DIEHL PUT OUT A STATEMENT TODAY ABOUT BAKER'S DECISION IN WHICH HE SAID HAVEN'T REALLY AGREED WITH HIM ON POLICY MATTERS, I LIKE HIM PERSONALLY, AND THEN RIGHT AFTER SAYING THAT, REMINDED PEOPLE HE HAS BEEN ENDORSED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I WAS SURPRISED BY THAT BECAUSE WHILE THAT MAY PLAY WELL IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, HE'S CURRENTLY WITHOUT AN OPPONENT, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT POPULAR IN MASSACHUSETTSCH JOE BIDEN BEAT HIM BY, I THINK, 34 PERSONALLY POINTS, HILLARY CLINTON BY AROUND 30.

WHY IS DIEHL, YOU THINK, PLAYING UP THE FACT THAT HE'S SORT OF SQUARELY IN LINE WITH THE TRUMP BRAND, WHO ENHE MAY JUST CRUISE THROUGH THE PRIMARY?

BECAUSE IN A GENERAL ELECTION, I CAN'T SEE THAT BEING AN ASSET, BUT MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING.

>> YEAH, I THINK HE IS STILL FOCUSED ON THE PRIMARY RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WHILE HE IS THE ONLY CANDIDATE IN THE RACE NOW ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, YOU KNOW, I WAS TALKING TO A FEW MORE BAKER-ALIGNED PEOPLE IN THE PARTY TODAY AND ONE PERSON DESCRIBED TO ME THEY'RE ALREADY SCRAMBLING TRYING TO FIND AT CANDIDATE WHO CAN EMERGE AS THE MORE MODERATE.

>> Reilly: OH, INTERESTING.

YEAH, AND OTHER REPUBLICANS HAVE EXPRESSED INTEREST IN THE PAST.

I'VE HEARD, RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.

WHILE HE MAY BE THE ONLY CANDIDATE IN THE RACE IT'S PROBABLY UNLIKELY HE'LL REMAIN THAT WAY.

IT'S AN OPENING SEAT.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WANT TO RUN FOR THE SEAT REGARDLESS OF WHICH PARTY THEY'RE ON.

SO I CAN HE WILL STICK WITH THAT MESSAGING NOW BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THE BASE WANTS.

>> Reilly: THEY DO.

THEY BELIEVE IT'S THE THING THAT GOT CHARLIE BAKER OUT OF THIS RACE NO MATTER WHAT THE MASS SAYS.

>> Reilly: THE MASS G.O.P.

STATEMENT ABOUT BAKER NOT SEEKING, IT IS WHAT THE BASE WANTS.

>> I WOULD ALSO SAY I THINK I 100% AGREE BUT I ALSO THINK THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO HAVE A HARDER TYPE DRAWING UNENROLLED VOTERS INTO THEIR PRIMARY NOW.

IT'S GOING TO BE A COMPETITIVE DEPPIC PRIMARY AND A COMPETITIVE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, AND, SO, GEOFF DIEHL'S MEAT AND POTATOES IS THE REPUBLICAN BASE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THE AMOUNT OF UNENROLLED VOTERS WHO WILL COME INTO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS SMALL, SO I DON'T THINK YOU CAN AFFORD TO MOVE TO THE MIDDLE YET UNTIL HE SEES WHO ELSE ENTERS THIS PRIMARY.

>> Reilly: MAKES SENSE.

SHANNON, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE,.

WE'VE HAD BEN DOWNING, DANIELLE ALLEN.

ABOUT 20 DEMOCRATS RECORD INTEREST IN RUNNING.

I WON'T TRY TO CORPS.

SOME MADE ME SCRATCH MY HEAD, SOME MADE ME THINK, THAT WILL BE HERRING.

HOW MUCH DO YOU EXPECT THE DEMOCRATIC FIELD TO GROW FROM THIS POINT ON?

>> I THINK IT WILL DEFINITELY GROW.

POLITICAL OPPORTUNITIES ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN IN THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS AND THERE'S LOTS OF QUALITY AMBITIOUS POLITICIANS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, SO THIS IS THEIR OPPORTUNITY.

PART OF THE REASON WHY I THINK JOE KENNEDY RAN LAST CYCLE IS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T SEE OPPORTUNITIES OPENING UP FOR HIM BECAUSE IT WAS A BIG CROWD.

SO I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE LOTS OF PEOPLE JUMPING IN BECAUSE THERE'S NOT OFTEN A CHANCE FOR AN OPEN ELECTION.

>> Reilly: AND, LISA -- SPEAKING OF JOE KENNEDY, I WILL JUST JUMP IN THERE.

AT LEAST A SOURCE CLOSE TO HIM SAID HE IS NOT INTERESTED IN THE GOVERNOR'S RACE FOR EVERYONE ASKING ABOUT THAT OR THE A.G.'S RACE BECOMES AN OPEN SEAT AS WELL.

>> Reilly: MICHELLE WU SAID SHE WON'T BE RUNNING, SHE TOLD THE HERALD.

WE HAVE 15 SECONDS.

LISA, ANY NAMES YOU THINK WE SHOULD KEEP AN EYE ON?

>> MARTY WALSH IS LEADING THE RUMOR MILICH FORMER MAYOR, TOPPING THE RUMOR MILL.

>> Reilly: HE HASN'T BOUGHT A PLACE IN D.C. >> AND HAS FIVE DOLLARS MILLION IN THE BANK.

>> Reilly: LISA KASHINSKY, SHANNON JENKINS, BOTH.

>> THANK YOU.

SO MUCH.

>> Reilly: AND ON FRIDAY WE'LL BE DIGGING A LOT DEEPER INTO WHERE THIS RACE IS HEADED AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE FUTURE OF MASSACHUSETTS.

THAT'S FRIDAY AT 7:00, HERE ON GBH-2.

NEXT UP, CHRIS CUOMO IS OFF THE AIR UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE AT CNN, SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY AFTER DOCUMENTS RELEASED THIS WEEK UNVEILED JUST HOW FAR HE WENT TO HELP HIS BROTHER, FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO, IN THE FALLOUT OF THE SEXUAL ASSAULT ACCUSATIONS AGAINST HIM.

AMONG THE REVELATIONS, CHRIS CUOMO'S TEXT EXCHANGES WITH THE FORMER GOVERNOR'S TOP AIDE, ASKING TO HELP CRAFT STATEMENTS TO THE PRESS, AND HIS ADMISSION THAT HE USED HIS MEDIA CONTACTS TO TRY TO GET AHEAD OF POTENTIAL NEW ACCUSATIONS AGAINST HIS BROTHER, TELLING ATTORNEYS HE "WOULD REACH OUT TO SOURCES, OTHER JOURNALISTS, TO SEE IF THEY HAD HEARD OF ANYBODY ELSE COMING OUT."

AT LEAST 16 WOMEN HAVE ACCUSED ANDREW CUOMO OF HARASSMENT AND/OR ASSAULT, A FACT HIS YOUNGER BROTHER DID NOT ADDRESS ON AIR ONCE, UP UNTIL HIS BROTHER ANNOUNCED HIS RESIGNATION AND CHRIS CUOMO CITED A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

BUT THAT CONFLICT WAS ON FULL DISPLAY-- AND EVEN HIGHLIGHTED IN THE EARLY DAYS OF PANDEMIC--WHEN THE THEN-GOVERNOR APPEARED ON HIS BROTHER'S SHOW ALMOST NIGHTLY, WITH EXCHANGES LIKE THIS ONE: >> I'VE ALWAYS BEEN A SOFT GUY.

I AM THE LOVE GOV.

I'M A COOL DUDE IN A LOOSE MOOD, YOU KNOW THAT.

I JUST SAY LET IT GO, JUST GO WITH THE FLOW, BABY.

YOU KNOW YOU CAN'T CONTROL ANYTHING, SO DON'T EVEN TRY.

>> YOU'VE NEVER SAID ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

>> WATER OFF A DUCKS BACK.

>> THAT'S THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE SAID ANY OF THOSE.

>> YEAH, I THINK I REALLY?

YEAH, WELL.

>> NEVER SAID ANY OF THEM.

LOOK, I HAVE TO-- >> I'VE KNOWN YOU MY WHOLE LIFE.

>> YEAH, WELL, THAT'S YOUR OPINION.

>> REILLY: SO WHILE CNN IS SAYING THE NEW DOCUMENTS REVEAL A GREATER LEVEL OF INVOLVEMENT WITH HIS BROTHER'S LATEST SCANDAL THAN THEY PREVIOUSLY KNEW ABOUT, HOW MUCH RESPONSIBILITY DO THEY BEAR?

I'M JOINED BY LYLAH ALPHONSE, EDITOR WITH THE "BOSTON GLOBE'S" RHODE ISLAND BUREAU; AND FORMER HEAD OF GLOBAL NEWSGATHERING AT VICE NEWS, SUSIE BANIKARIM.

>> IF I HAD TRIED TO INFLUENCE GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

SUSIE, I WONDERED WHY CHRIS CUOMO HAS NOT BEEN FIRED.

IS THAT TOO HARSH?

IT SEEMS TO ME LIKE WHAT HE DID WAS UNCONSCIONABLE.

>> I AGREE, I THINK IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE.

I THINK THE QUESTION HERE IS MAYBE THEY ARE WORKING OUT A POTENTIAL FIRING.

AS YOU KNOW TELEVISION CONTRACTS ARE COMPLICATED.

OFTEN PEOPLE ARE SUSPENDED AS A PRECURSOR TO MIRING, SO I THINK IT'S STILL POSSIBLE HE MIGHT BE FIRED BUT I THINK CNN HAS BACKED THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER.

THEY HAD A RULE HE COULDN'T COVER HIS BROTHER.

THEY LET HIM HAVE THESE RIDICULOUS INTERVIEWS WITH HIM WE JUST SAW WHERE HE'S A COOL DUDE IN A LOOSE MOOD, THAT JUST REALLY RINGS BADLY NOW IN RETROSPECT, AND THEY DIDN'T SUSPEND HIM WHEN THE INITIAL INFORMATION CAME OUT.

I THINK IF THEY SUSPENDED HIM WHEN THAT INFORMATION CAME OUT THEY MAYBE COULD HAVE GOTTEN THROUGH THIS PIECE, NOW IT FEELS LIKE THEY KEEP BACKING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER AND THEY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING OR ELSE THEY LOSE TOTAL CREDIBILITY HERE.

>> Reilly: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE INFORMATION.

HE READ TODAY ABOUT WHAT BASICALLY TRUCK AS A NON-APOLOGY APOLOGY.

IN THE SPRING HE SAID I'M SORRY I ADVISED MY BROTHER WHEN HE WAS GOING THROUGH THIS STUFF AND I PUT CNN IN A BAD SPOT, BUT I'M REALLY NOT SORRY BECAUSE FAMILY COMES FIRST AND I WOULD DO IT AGAIN.

THAT'S A FAIRLY ACCURATE PARAPHRASE.

LYLAH, WHY DIDN'T THEY SUSPEND HIM OR TAKE ACTION THEN?

WHY DID THEY LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THAT NON-APOLOGY POLL APOLOGY?

>> I THINK THEY WERE HOPING THAT WOULD BE THE END OF IT AND THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO GO INTO SUSPENSION WHICH GENERATES MEDIA ATTENTION, PUTS CNN IN A BAD LIGHT, SO HIM APOLOGIZING, THEY HOPED THAT WOULD BE IT.

I WONDER WHY THAT -- IT MAKES ME WONDER IF THIS ISN'T A TERMINABLE OFFENSE, WHAT CONSTITUTES FIRING FOR CAUSE?

IN THIS CASE YOU'VE BROKEN ALL SORTS OF ETHICAL RULES.

YES IT'S OKAY TO ASK WHAT YOUR FELLOW JOURNALISTS WHAT THEY'RE WRITING ABOUT BUT NOT OKAY TO TELL A SOURCE WHAT'S COMING.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE CNN SETS THE BAR BUT THAT WAS A NON-APOLOGY SAYING I'M SORRY YOU WERE OFFENDED INSTEAD OF APOLOGIZING FOR BEHAVIOR.

>> Reilly: LET'S BACK UP, THE PRINCIPLES THAT WE THINK WERE VIOLATED HERE.

CHRIS CUOMO SAID IN A DEPOSITION THAT HE DID NOT MAKE ANY ATTEMPT TO INFLUENCE COVERAGE AT CNN OR OTHER NETWORKSCH HE SAID, IF I HAD TRIED TO INFLUENCE ANY OF THE REPORTING AT CNN OR ANYWHERE ELSE, THEY WOULD KNOWCH WHAT'S COMING DOWN THE PIPE IS COMPLETELY BUSINESS AS USUAL.

SUSIE, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY THE CARDINAL RULE OR RULES ARE THAT CHRIS CUOMO VIOLATED?

>> IT'S SILLY TO SAY THIS IS BUSINESS AS USUAL.

THERE'S A VERY CLEAR CONFLICT.

AS PANELISTS, THERE ARE GOING TO BE TIMES WHEN YOU HAVE A CONFLICT BUT YOU MAKE SURE THAT YOU STEP OUT OF YOUR ROLE.

SO IT'S FINE IF CHRIS CUOMO WANTS TO BE FAMILY FIRST, BUT IF HE'S GOING TO ADVISE HIS BROTHER THEN HE NEEDS TO TAKE A LEAVE DURING THAT PERIOD.

HE SHOULD NOT BE EMPLOYED AS A JOURNALIST AT CNN.

I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM IS CNN'S MAIN EXIT ERFOX HOLDS ITS INTEREST IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT STANDARD.

I'M SURE SEAN HANNITY WAS ADVISING PRESIDENT TRUMP AT THE TIME ON A NUMBER OF MATTERS LIKE THIS, SO IT GETS REALLY BLURRY.

BUT CNN SAYS IT HOLDS ITSELF TO A DIFFERENT STANDARD THAN FOX SO YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

THEY CAN'T SAY WE ARE A JOURNALISTIC OPERATION UNLIKE FOX, AND THEN GIVE THIS GUY A PASS.

IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO WORK.

>> Reilly: LYLAH YOU GOT US INTO THE QUESTION OF WHAT PRINCIPLES WERE VIOLATED.

WOULD YOU ADD ANYTHING?

>> I WOULD.

I THINK YOUR AVERAGE VIEWER DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GETTING INVOLVED IN A STORY AND MAKING A COUPLE OF CALLS.

WHEN HE SAID HE DIDN'T GET INVOLVED IN A STORY, HE MEANS HE DIDN'T TRAY TO KILL A STORY.

HE MEANS HE DIDN'T TRY TO STOP ANOTHER JOURNALIST FROM REPORTING ON A STORY.

HEHE DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE DIDN'T MAKE CALLS AND ASK THEM WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

I THINK THE RULE THAT -- I HAVE TO AGREE, IF HE'S GOING TO BE INVOLVED, FAMILY FIRSTERS THAT'S REALLY GREAT, BUT THEN YOU RECUSE YOURSELF THE SAME WAY A LAWYER WOULD RECUSE HIMSELF FROM A CASE.

YOU TAKE A LEAVE OF ABSENCE FROM YOUR JOB AS A JOURNALIST AND DON'T PRETEND TO BE IMPARTIALITY ABOUT ANYTHING DURING THAT TAME.

YOU CERTAINLY -- IT'S CERTAINLY MORE COMPLICATED GIVEN HOW HE HAD HIS BROTHER ON AS A GUEST, AND, I MEAN, I THOUGHT THE WITTY BANTER BETWEEN BROTHERS WAS REALLY CHARMING AT FIRST.

IT WAS SOMETHING NEW AND FRESH AND DIFFERENT.

BUT IT DID BEG THE QUESTION WHAT ELSE WAS GOING ON, HOW ELSE WAS HE HELPING?

IT WASN'T JUST THE GOVERNOR GOING ON HIS BROTHER'S TV SHOW TO TALK ABOUT THE PANDEMIC, NOWIST GOING BOTH WAYS WITH THE JOURNALIST HELPING TO CRAFT THE MEDIA RESPONSE OR THE RESPONSE THAT THE GOVERNOR WOULD GIVE TO THE MEDIA, AND I THINK THAT CROSSED SEVERAL LINES.

>> Reilly: IT'S AGED ABOUT AS POORLY AS YOU CAN IMAGINE IT AGING AND I THINK IF I REMEMBER IT CORRECTLY TROPICAL STORM ONE LINE THAT STUCK IN MY BRAIN SINCE I WATCHED THE EXCHANGES AND THAT'S CHRIS CUOMO SAYING TO HIS BROTHER ARE YOU SINGLE AND READY TO MINGLE.

SO, AGAIN, THAT DOESN'T HOLD UP TOO WELL.

SUSIE, MOVING FORWARD, FOR CNN AS AN INSTITUTION, AS YOU MENTIONED, THEY WANT TO BE HELD TO A DIFFERENT STANDARD THAN FOX, THEY WANT TO BE THOUGHT OF AS A MORE LEGITIMATE NEWS ORGANIZATION THAN FOX NEWS, WHAT'S THAT GOING TO DO TO THEIR INSTITUTIONAL CREDIBILITY?

>> Reilly: I DON'T THINK THEY WILL BE THAT HARD HIT BY THIS.

I THINK THIS IS AN UNUSUAL CASE AND CIRCUMSTANCE.

BUT THERE ARE ALREADY A BUNCH OF PEEP WHO THINK CNN IS FAKE NEWS AND THEY WILL CON TO MAKE HAY OUT OF THAT.

WHERE WE ARE WITH THE MEDIA LANDSCAPE IS WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE CREDIBILITY WILL SUPPORT YOU AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T WON'T.

IT'S A BIT OF A WILD WEST WHERE WE ARE.

THE PROBLEM ISIST NOT JUST A STORY ABOUT MEDIA, IT'S A STORY ABOUT PRIVILEGE.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE WAY CHRIS CUOMO BEHAVED, IT FELT LIKE HE WAS UNTOUCHABLE, THAT HIS ROLE AT CNN WAS PROTECTED AND HE COULD HELP HIS BROTHER CONTINUE TO CONTAIN POWER AND THAT THAT WOULD BE OKAY.

SO THERE'S KIND OF A LARGER QUESTION OF WHO WE HOLD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THINGS AND WHO GETS A PASS AND I THINK THEY HAVE TO SHOW THAT THEY TREAT PEOPLE FAIRLY.

IT'S MORE OF AN ISSUE OF HOW THEIR STAFF WILL REACT IF THEY DON'T DO THAT.

>> Reilly: YOU TALK ABOUT WHERE WE'RE AT WHEN IT COMES TO CHOOSING YOUR FIGHTER IN THE MEDIA LANDSCAPE.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DO THAT.

ONE THING THAT WORRIES ME IS THERE MAY BE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO THINK THAT THE THREE OF US HAVE ENGAGED IN BEHAVIOR IN ANY WAY REMOTELY COMP RABB TO WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED HERE, AND I'M PRETTY SURE WE HAVEN'T, AND OUR COLLEAGUES HAVEN'T EITHER.

THIS IS NOT A AROUND THE M.O.

FOR THOSE OF US IN THE MEDIA, AND I HOPE THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THAT.

LYLAH, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT CNN COULD DO FROM THIS POISON ON MOVING FORWARD TO IF NOT PUT THE TOOTHPASTE BACK IN THE TUBE, MAKE THE SITUATION A LITTLE LESS UGLY THAN IT IS, AND MAYBE MAKE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CRITICAL OF CNN THINK THAT THEY'RE TAKING THIS SERIOUSLY, ALBEIT BELATEDLY AND TAKING STEPS TO MAKE SURE NOTHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS AGAIN?

>> I THINK THAT THAT'S A TOUGH CALL, ACTUALLY.

SPHWHRRVEL I REALLY DON'T THINK THIS HURTS THEIR CREDIBILITY WITH THEIR FANS AND IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T HELP THEIR CREDIBILITY WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST THEM.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT WHEN THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT THE MAIN STREP MEDIA -- MAINSTREAM MEDIA AND THEY LUMP EVERYONE IN TOGETHER WITH THAT EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT A MONOLITH.

ASIDE FROM PEDALING BACK TO THE PANDEMIC AND NOT HAVING THE TWO BROTHERS ON, I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU CAN DO.

WHAT HAPPENED HERE IS AN ABUSE OF POWER.

YOU HAVE POWER AS A JOURNALIST, YOU HAVE A PLATFORM, AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST CRITICAL OF THAT ALREADY THINK IT'S BEING ABUSED.

SO I'M NOT SURE HOW THEY COME BACK FROM THIS OTHER THAN TO WAIT AND SEE WHETHER PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO IGNORE IT AND SEE WHOEVER ELSE THEY PUT IN THAT SUPER POPULAR TIME SLOT.

>> Reilly: SUSIE, DO YOU AGREE WITH LYLAH'S ASSESSMENT OR DO YOU THINK THERE IS SOMETHING CNN CAN DO WHEN IT COMES TO DAMAGE CONTROL, CREDIBILITY OR ENHANCEMENT MAINTENANCE?

>> THERE WILL BE A QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT THEY BRING HIM BACK AND IN WHAT CAPACITY.

THERE'S AN OPTION OF BRINGING HIM BACK BUT NOT AS THE HOST OF THE 5:00 P.M. SLOT.

IT'S A POPULAR SLOT AND HE'S THE HOTTEST THING ON THE NETWORK.

THEY NEED TO MAKE A SACRIFICE TO SHOW PEOPLE THEY TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

WHETHER THEY'RE WILLING TO DO THAT IS NOT EVIDENT.

ZUCKERBERG MAY FEEL HE HAS MADE THE SACRIFICE.

HE KNEW THE TRANSCRIPTS EXISTED AND IT SEEMS LIKE THEY DIDN'T.

HE HAD TO HAVE -- AT SOME POINT YOU GO TO SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR YOU AND SAY IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE COMING, ARE THERE ANY SURPRISES?

IT SOUNDS LIKE HE DIDN'T PREPARE THEM FOR THIS SO THEY MAY BE REALLY ANGRY WITH HIM.

THERE MAY BE A POINT WHERE THEY FEEL HE ACROSSED INTO UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR WHEREAS BEFORE THEY DEFENDED HIS POSITION.

>> Reilly: LYLAH.

I KIND OF THINK THEY'RE HOPING THAT IF HE'S BEEN SUSPENDED FOR A WHILE AND HIS BROTHER IS NO LONGER GOVERNOR, HE CAN COME BACK AT SOME POINT, NOT TALK ABOUT IT, MAYBE APOLOGIZE ON AIR AND MAYBE MOVE FORWARD THAT WAY.

I HAVE TO WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

>> Reilly: ACTUALLY, I THINK I'LL GIVE THE LAST WORD TO SUSIE.

YOU MENTIONED, I HAD NOT SEEN THIS YET, BUT HE DID OFFER SORT OF A NEW NON-APOLOGY APOLOGY, RIGHT?

>> YES.

TODAY HE HAS A SERIOUS PODCAST OR RADIO THOUGH AND CAME ON SAYING IT HURT TO EVEN TALK ABOUT BEING SUSPENDED BUT HE UNDERSTANDS WHERE PEOPLE FELT LAKE HE MAY HAVE DONE SOMETHING WRONG BUT DIDN'T ADMIT HE'D DONE ANYTHING WRONG.

WHAT'S SHOCKING IS HE NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED THE WOMEN.

HE TALKS ABOUT HOW MUCH IT HURTS HIM TO BE IN THIS POSITION, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WOMEN HE WAS REALLY DOING RECON ON.

HE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN DOING TECHNICAL RESEARCH BUT HE WAS SAYING THINGS LIKE I HAVE A LEAD OBSERVE ONE OF THESE WOMEN.

SO IT'S AS IF THERE'S NO ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE BEING HURT BY THIS.

IT'S NOT JUST HIM HE SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON.

IT'S NARCISSISTIC, OBVIOUSLY.

>> Reilly: SUSIE BANIKARIM, LYLAH ALPHONSE, GOOD TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT THIS.

>> THANK YOU.

COME BACK TOMORROW.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

WE'LL TALK TO CLAIRE WARDLE, THE DIRECTOR OF FIRST DRAFT, A NON-PROFIT THAT HELPS TACKLE MISINFORMATION, ON HOW FAKE NEWS ABOUT COVID IS HELPING NEW VARIANTS SPREAD.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org