♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP -- >>> UKRAINE FACES ANOTHER DARK WINTER, AS WESTERN MILITARY AID HANGS IN THE BALANCE.

I DISCUSS WITH NATO'S SECRETARY-GENERAL.

>>> THEN, HALF OF GAZA'S POPULATION IS STARVING, SAYING THE U.N.'S WORLD FOOD PROGRAM.

WE BRING YOU A REPORT ON THE GRAVE SITUATION, AND I'LL ASK THE PRESIDENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE OF THE RED CROSS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO SAVE CIVILIAN LIVES.

>>> NEXT, ADAM DRIVER TAKES THE WHEEL.

MY CONVERSATION WITH THE HOLLYWOOD STAR ABOUT HIS NEW FILM, "FERRARI."

>>> PLUS, HOW TO KNOW A PERSON.

"NEW YORK TIMES" COLUMNIST DAVE BROOKS JOINS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT TACKLING LONELINESS.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

UKRAINE SHOCKED THE WORLD IN 2022 WHEN IT FOUGHT OFF RUSSIA'S INVASION.

DEFYING EXPECTATIONS OF ITS IMMINENT DEMISE.

AND NOW, NEARLY TWO YEARS LATER, KYIV IS STILL HANGING ON, BUT JUST BARELY.

WITH WORLD SUPPORT SLIPPING FOR THIS CRITICAL FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY, ONE UKRAINIAN MEDIC RECENTLY TOLD CNN, WITHOUT AID, WE ARE FINISHED.

THE U.S. SENATE WON'T VOTE ON THAT AID TO UKRAINE UNTIL 2024.

PUTIN HAS BOASTED THIS MONTH THAT UKRAINE HAS NOTHING AND EVEN THE STAUNCHEST UKRAINE SUPPORTERS KNOW THAT THEIR SUMMER COUNTEROFFENSIVE FAILED TO ACHIEVE ITS OBJECTIVES.

SO, THIS IS A DECISIVE MOMENT FOR THE WAR, AT ANOTHER DARK WINTER LOOMS, AS NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL JENS STOLTENBERG HAS WORKED TIRELILESS TO GET UKRAINE WHAT IT NEEDS, AND HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM OSLO.

SO, SECRETARY-GENERAL, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, AT THE END OF THIS YEAR.

DID YOU EXPECT THAT BY THE END OF THIS YEAR, THINGS WOULD BE SO DIRE AND MAYBE PUTIN WILL BE PROVED RIGHT, TO HAVE SAID THAT HE CAN WAIT OUT THE WEST?

>> I'M ALWAYS VERY CAREFUL PREDICTING ABOUT WARS, BECAUSE WARS ARE BY NATURE UNPREDICTABLE, AND MOST EXPERTS WERE VERY WRONG AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, BECAUSE THEN MANY EXPERTS BELIEVED RUSSIA WOULD TAKE CONTROL OF KYIV IN DAYS AND UKRAINE WOULD COLLAPSE WITHIN WEEKS.

THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PUSH BACK THE RUSSIAN INVADERS IN THE NORTH AND EAST AND IN THE SOUTH.

BUT OF COURSE, NOW WE SEE THAT THE FRONT LINES HAVE NOT CHANGED IN ANY SIGNIFICANT WAY OVER THE LAST YEAR, AND THEREFORE, IT'S EVEN MORE IMPORTANT THAT WE VERY CLEARLY CONTINUE TO PROVIDE SUPPORT TO UKRAINE, BECAUSE THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT TO BE ABLE TO PREVAIL.

>> SO, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION, THEN, TO THE U.S. CONGRESS NOT VOTING ON THIS PACKAGE TO THE EU NOT VOTING ON THIS PACKAGE, AND, TO, AMERICAN POLICY, ANYWAY, WESTERN POLICY MAKERS SAYING THAT UKRAINE'S GOING TO LOSE IF IT DOESN'T GET THIS AID.

DO YOU SHARE THAT CONCERN, THAT IT WILL LOSE IF IT DOESN'T GET THE CRITICAL AID THAT IT NEEDS VERY SOON?

>> OF COURSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER IF THE U.S. CONGRESS COULD HAVE DECIDED ON A NEW PACKAGE, OR A NEW ALLOCATION OF MONEY TO UKRAINE BEFORE CHRISTMAS.

AT THE SAME TIME, I CONTINUE TO COUNT ON THE UNITED STATES AND THE U.S. CONGRESS TO AGREE A SUBSTANTIAL PACKAGE FOR UKRAINE, BECAUSE THIS IS NOT CHARITY, THIS IS NOT ONLY SOMETHING WE DO TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

WE DO IT BECAUSE IT IS AN INVESTMENT IN OUR OWN SECURITY.

AND WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT IF PRESIDENT PUTIN WINS, IT'S NOT ONLY A CHALLENGE FOR UKRAINIANS, IT IS DANGEROUS FOR US.

WE BECOME MORE VULNERABLE, BECAUSE THE MESSAGE TO PRESIDENT PUTIN IS THAT, WHEN HE USES MILITARY FORCE, HE GETS WHAT HE WANTS, AND THIS IS ALSO VERY CLOSELY WATCHED IN BEIJING, SO THIS IS IN OUR SECURITY INTEREST, IN THE SECURITY INTEREST OF THE UNITED STATES, TO INVEST IN THE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE.

>> SO, TO THAT POINT, LET ME PLAY SOMETHING THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAID WHILE HE WAS, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO PERSUADE THE WEST THAT THEY NEEDED THE AID.

HE SORT OF SAID WHAT YOU SAID, IF, YOU KNOW, IF UKRAINE LOSES, WHO KNOWS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT.

>> IF RUSSIA WILL KILL ALL OF US, THEY WILL ATTACK NATO COUNTRIES, AND YOU WILL SEND YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS, AND IT WILL BE -- I'M SORRY, BUT THE PRICE WILL BE HIGH.

>> AND YOU SAID LAST WEEK, AND LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT, IF PUTIN WINS IN UKRAINE, THERE IS A REAL RISK THAT HIS AGGRESSION WILL NOT END THERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SAID SOMETHING SIMILAR.

PUTIN SAYS THAT'S NONSENSE.

BUT WHAT DO YOU SAY TO, YOU KNOW, TO THIS FEAR THAT IT WON'T STOP IN UKRAINE?

>> WE DON'T SEE ANY IMMINENT THREAT AGAINST ANY NATO ALLIED COUNTRY, BUT WHAT WE SEE IS THAT IF RUSSIA AND PRESIDENT PUTIN WINS IN UKRAINE, THEN, OF COURSE, WE SEE A PATTERN.

THEY USED FORCE AGAINST MOLDOVA, THEY HAD FORCES IN MOLDOVA, WHEN THEY INVADED GEORGIA, WE SEE THE RETALIATORY OF THE RUSSIAN FORCES IN SYRIA, AND THEY ANNEXED CRIMEA IN 2014, THEY WENT TO EASTERN DONBAS IN 2014.

IF THEY ARE ABLE TO TAKE THE REST OF UKRAINE, OF COURSE, THE LESSON FOR THEM IS THAT THEY CAN VIOLATE INTERNATIONAL LAW, THEY CAN USE MILITARY FORCE, THEY CAN INVADE NEIGHBORS, AND THEY GET WHAT THEY WANT.

AND THAT'S A VERY DANGEROUS LESSON.

THERE ARE OTHER COUNTRIES WHICH ARE IN EUROPE, WHICH HAVE BEEN UNDER HEAVY PRESSURE FROM RUSSIA, GEORGIA, MOLDOVA, AND OTHERS.

SO WE DON'T SEE ANY IMMINENT THREAT AGAINST NATO ALLIES, BUT IT WILL BECOME A MORE DANGEROUS WORLD, AND WE WILL BE MORE VULNERABLE, AND IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, THIS IS NOT ONLY ABOUT EUROPE.

SOUTH KOREA, JAPAN, ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE THEY ALSO KNOW THAT BEIJING IS WATCHING CLOSELY, AND THE MORE PUTIN IS ABLE TO SUCCEED IN UKRAINE, THE MORE RISKY IT WILL BE FOR COUNTRIES ALSO IN ASIA FOR ANY POTENTIAL USE OF MILITARY FORCE FROM CHINA.

>> SO, THEN LET ME ASK YOU, DO YOU THINK, BECAUSE YOU RECENTLY SAID THAT CHINA'S NOT AN ADVERSARY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR-EYED ABOUT THE IMPACT OF ITS COERCIVE POLICIES ON OUR SECURITY.

GIVEN WHAT YOU JUST SAID, ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT THERE MAY BE A FLAREUP THERE, THAT NATO AND, YOU KNOW, THE -- YOU KNOW, THE WESTERN ALLIANCE, MAY BE OVERSTRETCHED?

AT THE SAME TIME, IT LOOKS LIKE, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU'RE ALL OVERSTRETCHED OR IF THE EYE IS OFF THE BALL IN UKRAINE, BECAUSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

HOW DO THESE FAR-FLUNG WARS EFFECT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN UKRAINE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, NATO IS A REGIONAL ALLIANCE, NORTH AMERICA AND EUROPE, AND OUR CORE TASK IS TO PROTECT 31, SOON 32 NATO ALLIES, 1 BILLION PEOPLE LIVING IN NORTH AMERICA AND EUROPE.

AND THAT'S ALSO THE REASON WHY WE INCREASED OUR MILITARY PRESENCE IN EASTERN PART OF THE ALLIANCE, AFTER THE FULL-FLEDGED INVASION OF UKRAINE LAST YEAR.

BECAUSE WE HAVE TWO TASKS.

ONE IS TO SUPPORT UKRAINE, AS WE DO, AND THE OTHER IS TO PREVENT THIS WAR FROM ESCALATING INTO FULL-FLEDGED WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA AND NATO.

AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY WE HAVE INCREASED OUR MILITARY PRESENCE.

THEN -- THEN, OF COURSE WHAT HAPPENS IN ASIA MATTERS FOR NATO.

WE SEE HOW CHINA IS VIOLATING INTERNATIONAL LAW, HOW THEY -- THEIR BEHAVIOR IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, HOW THEY'RE CRACKING DOWN ON RIGHTS, WHICH ARE IMPORTANT FOR NATO, IN HONG KONG, AND ALSO AGAINST THEIR OWN MINORITIES, AND THEN WE SEE HOW CHINA'S COMING CLOSER TO US IN CYBERSPACE, IN AFRICA, ALSO TRYING TO CONTROL CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE IN EUROPE.

SO, SECURITY IS NOT REGIONAL.

SECURITY IS GLOBAL.

WHAT HAPPENS IN EUROPE MATTERS FOR ASIA, WHAT HAPPENS IN ASIA MATTERS FOR EUROPE.

AND, OF COURSE, IT MATTERS FOR NATO, EVEN THOUGH NATO IS NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE CONFLICT.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, I'VE ASKED YOU MANY TIMES AND I'VE ASKED MANY OTHER LEADERS MANY TIMES IN THE TWO YEARS OF THIS WAR, YOU KNOW, WHY HASN'T MORE THAT'S BEEN PROMISED GOT TO UKRAINE IN THE RIGHT TIME?

WHEN IT COULD HAVE ACTUALLY USED IT, WHEN IT COULD HAVE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF ITS STRENGTH ON THE GROUND, THERE'S A MAJOR NEW ARTICLE IN "TIME MAGAZINE" THAT IS NOW ASKING THE SAME QUESTION, IN FACT, SAYING THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S, AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S, SLOW YES AND NATO'S SLOW YES TO UKRAINIAN REQUESTS FOR WEAPONS SYSTEMS AND SPECIALTY AMMUNITION IS -- HAS LED TO THIS POINT.

WHERE RUSSIA HAS BEEN ABLE TO CAPITALIZE AND TO DIG IN AND THIS STATE OF ATTRITION RIGHT NOW.

>> THERE'S ONLY ONE WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SUFFERING AND THE DAMAGE WE SEE IN UKRAINE, AND THAT IS PRESIDENT PUTIN AND THE LEADERSHIP IN MOSCOW.

BECAUSE THEY INVADED.

THEY USED MILITARY FORCE AGAINST A NEIGHBOR, WHICH HAVE IN NO WAY BEEN A THREAT TO THEM.

WE CAN ALWAYS DISCUSS IF IT WAS POSSIBLE TO DO EVEN MORE FROM OUR SIDE EARLIER IN PROVIDING SUPPORT TO UKRAINE, BUT WHAT IS CLEAR IS THAT UNITED STATES AND NATO ALLIES HAVE PROVIDED UNPRECEDENTED SUPPORT TO UKRAINE.

IN THE BEGINNING, WITH LIGHT WEAPONS LIKE THE ANTI-TANK WEAPONS, THE JAVELINS AND THE OTHER TYPES OF ANTI-TANK WEAPONS THAT MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE THE FIRST WEEKS.

THEN WITH HEAVY ARTILLERY, THEN WITH ADVANCED AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS.

AND NOW WITH CRUISE MISSILES, LONG-RANGE CRUISE MISSILES, AND WE ARE STARTED THE TRAINING OF F-16 PILOTS AND F-16 PLANES WILL SOON BE DELIVERED.

SO, THIS IS THE REASON WHY ACTUALLY THE UKRAINIANS HAVE ACHIEVED A LOT.

THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO LIBERATE 50% OF THE TERRITORY THAT THE RUSSIANS OCCUPIED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR.

>> BUT NOTHING IN THE LAST YEAR, AND I GUESS MY QUESTION IS, WHAT IS YOUR -- WHAT IS YOUR PLAN B?

DOES NATO HAVE A PLAN B?

WE UNDERSTAND THERE'S SOME PLAN Bs BEING WORKED ON.

YOU KNOW, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE EUROPEAN, AMERICAN AID, SPED UP NOW?

WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE FOR NEXT YEAR?

>> THE PLAN IS TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT THE ONLY WAY TO END -- THE ONLY WAY TO END THIS WAR IN A WAY THAT ENSURES THAT UKRAINE PREVAILS IS THAT WE CONVINCE PRESIDENT PUTIN THAT HE WILL NOT WIN ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

THE ONLY WAY OF CONVINCING HIM IS TO ENSURE THAT UKRAINE HAS THE AMMUNITION, THE FORCES THEY NEED, TO CONTINUE TO PUSH BACK RUSSIAN FORCES.

AND, YES, YOU ARE RIGHT, THE FRONT LINES HAVE NOT CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY OVER THE LAST YEAR, BUT UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO INFLICT HEAVY LOSSES ON THE RUSSIAN FORCES, SO, THERE IS PAYING A PRICE ON THE BATTLEFIELD, AND THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE CONTROL OF PARTS OF THE BLACK SEA AND PUSH BACK THE BLACK SEA RUSSIAN NAVY SO THEY ARE ABLE TO EXPORT GOODS AND GRAIN OUT OF UKRAINE.

THESE ARE BIG ACHIEVEMENTS, BIG VICTORIES FOR UKRAINE, AND THEY HAVE PREVAILED AS A SOVEREIGN, INDEPENDENT NATION.

SO, WE NEED TO REMEMBER, YES, THERE ARE PROBLEMS, YES, WE SHOULD HAVE SEEN MORE PROGRESS ON THE BATTLEFIELD, BUT UKRAINIANS HAVE ACHIEVED MUCH.

>> NEXT YEAR IS REALLY GOING TO BE CHALLENGING.

JENS STOLTENBERG, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, TO GAZA, WHERE WORDS CAN BARELY DESCRIBE THE LEVEL OF MISERY THAT IS EVERYDAY LIFE THERE.

THE PHYSICAL DANGER, THE PSYCHOLOGICAL TERROR, AND, OF COURSE, THE LACK OF THE MOST BASIC SUPPLIES, FOR INSTANCE, FOOD AND WATER.

THE U.N.'S WORLD FOOD PROGRAM SAYS HALF THE POPULATION IS NOW STARVING.

JOMANA KARADSHEH BRINGS US THIS WORK.

>> ISRAEL'S MILITARY POUNDING NEIGHBORHOODS INTO DUST.

IN CENTRAL GAZA, WHOLE BLOCKS REDUCED TO RUBBLE, SEEMINGLY DESERTED, UNBELIEVABLE.

BUT THERE'S ALSO THIS.

THE NEAR SURREAL SCENES THIS WEEK, THE HUSTLE AND BUSTLE OF A STREET MARKET.

IT'S THE STORY OF EVERY WAR, WHERE LIFE DOESN'T STOP.

IT GOES ON FOR THOSE TRYING TO SURVIVE.

BUT GAZA IS LIKE NO OTHER PLACE.

IT'S WHERE MORE THAN 2 MILLION ARE CRAMMED INTO THIS TINY STRIP OF LAND THAT NOW LOOKS LIKE IT'S BEEN BOMBED BACK INTO AGES PAST, WHERE THOSE WHO HAVE LOST EVERYTHING HAVE NOWHERE LEFT BUT THE STREETS.

THAT'S WHERE THEY ARE BUILDING A PAY OVEN,.

WE LIVE IN SEWAGE, HE SAYS.

EVERY TIME IT RAINS, THE SEWAGE OVERFLOWS.

IT'S COLD.

THERE'S NO FOOD, NO WATER, NO WARM CLOTHES.

MOST HERE HAVE ESCAPED THE BOMBS, ONLY TO BE TRAPPED IN THIS MISERY.

DISEASE AND STARVATION, THE U.N.'S WARNED, MAY SOON KILL MORE THAN THOSE BOMBS.

HALF THE POPULATION, IT SAYS, ARE NOW STARVING.

PEOPLE GOING ENTIRE DAYS WITHOUT EATING.

THIS WOMAN SAYS SHE COLLECTS A BIT OF FLOUR FROM HERE AND THERE TO BAKE BREAD FOR HER CHILDREN.

WE'RE ALL THROWN INTO THE STREETS, SHE SAYS.

THEY SAID, GO TO THE SOUTH, WE CAME TO THE SOUTH TO DIE SLOWLY.

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH SAYS ISRAEL'S USING STARVATION AS A WEAPON OF WAR.

IT'S A WAR CRIME ISRAEL DENIES AND CALLS IT A LIE.

IT ACCUSES HAMAS OF STEALING AID.

IN THE WAKE OF OCTOBER 7th, ISRAEL'S DEFENSE MINISTER ANNOUNCED A SIEGE OF GAZA, QUOTE, NO ELECTRICITY, NO FUEL, EVERYTHING CLOSED UNTIL ALL HOSTAGES WERE RETURNED.

SOME AID AND WATER DELIVERY RESUMED, BUT NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH.

MUCH OF THE BLOCKADE REMAINS IN PLACE.

WHAT RIGHTS GROUPS CALL COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT.

SOMETIMES THE LUCKY ONES FIND MORE THAN LENTILS AND BREAD FOR THE HUNGRY MOUTHS THEY HAVE TO FEED.

THIS MOTHER USES A PAIR OF JEANS FOR HER FIRE TO BOIL SOME CHICKEN WINGS AND BONES.

I'M USING CLOTHES AND CARDBOARD TO MAKE FIRE.

THE SITUATION IS DISASTROUS, BUT I NEED TO FIND A WAY FOR MY CHILDREN.

WE HAVE NOWHERE TO SHELTER.

FLEEING THE BOMBS, SCROUNGING FOR FOOD.

NOW THE PEOPLE OF GAZA DESPERATELY WAIT FOR THE MOMENT THEY CAN TRY ONCE AGAIN TO LIVE.

>> ISRAEL IS BACK AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, A SOURCE TELLS CNN, WITH PROPOSALS FOR ANOTHER PAUSE IN FIGHTING IN EXCHANGE FOR THE RELEASE OF MORE HOSTAGES, BUT IT DOESN'T LOOK IMMINENT.

THE RED CROSS WOULD LIKELY BE CENTRAL TO ANY DEAL.

THEY FACILITATED THE PREVIOUS RELEASE OF HOSTAGES AND ITS DIRECTOR GENERAL RECENTLY RETURNS FROM A VISIT TO GAZA AND ISRAEL AND CALLS THIS ONGOING WAR THE WORLD'S MORAL FAILURE.

MIRJANA SPOLJARIC, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> I THANK YOU.

>> YOU HAVE JUST RETURNED FROM INSIDE GAZA, AND THERE ARE INCREASINGLY DESPERATE SCENES AND CRIES FOR HELP FROM THE PEOPLE THERE, FOR JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING.

A BITE TO EAT, A SIP OF WATER.

CAN I JUST ASK YOU SPECIFICALLY, IT IS SAID THAT THE BIGGEST RISK OF DEATH RIGHT NOW, EVEN BEYOND THE AERIAL BOMBARDMENTS, COULD BE DISEASE, ALSO THE WORLD FOOD PROGRAM SAYS THAT FULLY HALF, ONE HALF OF GAZA'S POPULATION IS STARVING, I MEAN, THAT'S PRETTY DRAMATIC, THE WORD STARVING.

NEARLY THREE-QUARTERS OF HOSPITALS ARE OUT OF ACTION, ACCORDING TO REUTERS.

>> THIS IS VERY TRUE.

WE ARE WAITING A STATE NOW WHERE PEOPLE WILL START DYING FROM SECONDARY IMPACT OF -- OF THE HOSTILITIES.

WHAT I SAW AT THE HOSPITALS WERE MANY CHILDREN THAT REQUIRED AMPUTATION, THEY WERE THERE AFTER THE SURGERY, BUT WITHOUT PARENTS, BECAUSE THEY WERE KILLED.

THE REST OF THE FAMILY WAS NOWHERE.

AND THERE WAS NO ACCESS TO ADEQUATE LEVELS OF NUTRITION AND, YOU KNOW THAT WHEN YOU UNDERGO SUCH SURGERY, YOU NEED NUTRITION TO RECOVER.

AMPUTATIONS REQUIRE A SERIES OF INTERVENTIONS, AND IT'S NOT JUST A FIRST INTERVENTION THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE, BUT NOW DAYS, PEOPLE ARE BEING SENT OUT OF THE HOSPITAL, BECAUSE THERE'S NO SPACE.

THERE'S NO FUNCTIONING SEWAGE SYSTEM ANYMORE.

THIS WILL SPREAD DISEASES ENORMOUSLY.

THERE'S NO FUNCTIONING VACCINATION SYSTEM ANYMORE.

EVERYTHING IS COLLAPSING.

AND WE WILL SEE A MAJOR HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE VERY SOON, IF IT'S NOT HAPPENING ALREADY.

>> SO, YOU HAVE BEEN THERE, I WONDER HOW MUCH YOU SAW.

PEOPLE WHO ARE CONTACTED, PEOPLE WHO SHOW ON OUR AIR AND OBVIOUSLY DRONE CAMERAS AND THE LIKE, THEY SHOW, YOU KNOW, QUITE A LOT OF GAZA FLATTENED.

NEIGHBORHOODS FLATTENED.

AND AS YOU SAID, PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD TO MOVE TO THE NORTH AND THE SOUTH AND BACK AGAIN -- WHERE -- WHERE ARE THEY GETTING SHELTER NOW?

WHERE ARE PEOPLE ACTUALLY GETTING FOOD, FLOUR, WHATEVER, TO MAKE BREAD?

EVEN BAKERIES ARE CLOSING DOWN.

>> THERE ARE NO SAFE SPACES.

AND THERE'S NO ADEQUATE HUMANITARIAN RESPONSE POSSIBLE UNDER CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES.

WHAT WE DO IS MOVE IN WHEN WE CAN, WITH WHAT WE HAVE.

BUT THERE'S NO ADEQUATE SUPPLY OF MATERIAL, FOOD, WATER, FUEL, MOST PARTICULARLY FUEL, AS WELL.

OUR OWN TEAMS EAT ONCE A DAY, IF AT ALL.

BUT WHAT I SAW WAS NO SAFE SPACE, AND THIS IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE, THERE'S NO AREA WHERE PEOPLE CAN FIND SECURITY, BECAUSE THE OPERATIONS ARE SHIFTING, AND THERE IS -- THERE ARE HOSTILITIES ALL OVER GAZA.

THERE WAS NO STREET THAT I PASSED THAT I DIDN'T SEE HOUSES DESTROYED OR PARTS OF NEIGHBORHOODS DESTROYED.

THERE'S NO PLACE IN GAZA ANYMORE WHERE THERE HASN'T BEEN SHELLING, WHERE THERE HASN'T BEEN OPERATIONS THAT DIRECTLY ENDANGERED THE LIVES OF CIVILIANS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE PART OF YOUR ROLE HISTORICALLY HAS ALSO BEEN TO CHECK UP ON PRISONERS OF WAR, IN THIS CASE, HOSTAGES, AND I JUST WANT TO KNOW, BECAUSE CLEARLY YOU KNOW, I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU, YOU'RE UNDER SOME PRESSURE FROM THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND, INDEED, HOSTAGE FAMILIES.

WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU TELLING THEM?

BECAUSE THEY WANT YOU TO BE MORE ADAMANT WITH HAMAS TO RELEASE, THEY WANT YOU TO CARRY IN MEDICAL SUPPLIES AND OTHER THINGS FOR HOSTAGES WHO MAY BE ILL. WHAT ARE YOU TELLING THEM?

WHAT ARE THE ACTUAL RULES THAT YOU OPERATE UNDER?

>> THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES HAS BEEN OUR TOP PRIORITY SINCE DAY ONE, WE'VE WORKED TIRELESSLY.

AND WHAT YOU COULD SEE WAS THE RELEASE OF OVER 100 HOSTAGES.

NOW, THIS IS NOT EVERYTHING, BUT IT IS SIGNIFICANT.

NOW, WE ARE WORKING WITH ALL SIDES TO GET THE AGREEMENT ON THE MECHANISMS THAT ARE NECESSARY AND THAT NEED TO BE IN PLACE FOR US TO ACCESS THE HOSTAGES, BUT ALSO TO HAVE FURTHER RELEASES.

IT MEANS THAT THEY HAVE TO RETURN TO THE NEGOTIATION TABLE.

AND AGREE ON WHERE, WHEN WE CAN ACCESS THE HOSTAGES, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, WHAT WE NEED IS THE SECURITY GUARANTEES, BECAUSE WE SAW OVER THE WEEKEND WITH THE KILLING OF THE THREE HOSTAGES, HOW DANGEROUS IT HAS BECOME FOR EVERYONE, AND WE CERTAINLY DO NOT WANT TO ENDANGER THE HOSTAGES WHILE WE ARE TRYING TO SAVE THEIR LIVES, AND IT IS, TREATMENTLY EXTREMELY EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO MOVE AT ALL AT THE MOMENT.

AND THEN, WE NEED TO NOWHERE TO GO.

>> SO, THE KILLING OVER THE WEEKEND WAS BY ISRAELI FORCES.

BUT THE ISRAELIS SAY, WHY DON'T YOU GO TO HAMAS AND SAY, GIVE US ACCESS, LET US SEE THEM, GIVE US SIGN OF LIFE, GIVE -- LET US GIVE THEM LETTERS FROM THEIR FAMILY, THE KIND OF THING THAT OFTEN ICRC DOES IN OTHER P.O.W.

SITUATIONS, OTHER CONFLICTS.

I -- TELL ME WHAT YOU CAN SAY PUBLICLY AND WHAT YOU MIGHT BE DOING BEHIND THE SCENES.

>> IT WAS VERY PUBLIC THAT I WENT TO DOHA MYSELF TO SPEAK WITH THE TOP LEADERSHIP WITH HAMAS.

IT IS VERY PUBLIC THAT WE DEMAND THE UNCONDITIONAL RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES, WE DEMAND PROOF OF LIFE, WE DEMAND TO BE ABLE TO TRANSMIT MESSAGES, WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO BRING MEDICAL ASSISTANCE.

ALL OF THIS IS PUBLIC.

NOW, WHAT WE DISCUSS IN DETAIL CANNOT BE REVEALED, BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO COMPROMISE, YOU KNOW, THE OUTCOME OF THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

NOW, THE NEGOTIATIONS ARE FACILITATED BY THIRD PARTIES, NOT BY US, BUT WE TALK TO EVERYONE TO ENSURE THAT THEY KNOW WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR THE HOSTAGES TO BE RELEASED.

THERE WAS AN AGREEMENT ON THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES WHILE THEY WERE IN DOHA NEGOTIATING.

NOW, WHAT WE WANT IS THE PARTIES TO RESUME THE NEGOTIATIONS AND TO CONTINUE THESE NEGOTIATIONS UNTIL THEY FIND ANOTHER AGREEMENT ON THE MODALITIES SO THAT THE REMAINING HOSTAGES CAN BE RELEASED.

HAMAS HAS DEMANDS, ISRAEL HAS DEMANDS.

THEY HAVE TO MEET SOMEWHERE, SO THAT WE CAN START OPERATING.

>> MIRJANA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND NEXT, TO 1950s ITALY.

A TIME WHEN MOTOR RACING WAS RISING AS A SPORT AND WAS PARTICULARLY DEADLY.

IN HIS FIRST FILM IN EIGHT YEARS, DIRECTOR MICHAEL MANN'S "FERRARI" FOLLOWING THE TRA VAILS OF COMPANY PA TREE YASHG ENZO FERRARI, AS HE DEALS WITH DEATH OF HIS SON AND STRUGGLES TO ENSURE THE SURVIVAL OF HIS ORGANIZATION, EVEN AS THE BODIES PILE UP.

ADAM DRIVER IS IN THE FILM, AND HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> ENZO.

YOU ARE GOING BREAK.

>> HOW?

>> YOU SPEND MORE THAN YOU MAKE.

>> SO, WHAT DO I DO?

>> WIN THE -- OR YOU ARE OUT OF BUSINESS.

>> THIS IS A GUN POINTED AT OUR HEAD.

YOU CAN ASSIGN ME CONTROL OF YOUR STOCK.

I HAVE TO HAVE ALL THE CARDS IN MY MIND.

>> WELL, HALF THE CARDS ARE IN MY HAND.

>> YOU KNOW DRIVER FROM MOVIES LIKE "HOUSE OF GUCCI," "STAR WARS," "MARRIAGE STORY" AND MANY MORE.

I SPOKE WITH HIM ABOUT MAKING "FERRARI" AND WHAT HE DRAWS ON FROM HIS OWN LIFE.

ADAM DRIVER, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT FOR YOU TO PLAY ENZO?

WHAT ABOUT HIM?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I FEEL THE PRESSURE WITH EVERY JOB.

THIS ONE WAS, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE HE WAS SUCH AN ITALIAN ICON AND AN AUTOMOTIVE ICON, BUT LARGELY BECAUSE IT WAS MICHAEL.

WHAT I LIKED ABOUT THE CHARACTER IS THAT MICHAEL'S VERSION OF HIM WAS THAT HE WAS A RACER FIRST, SO, HE WAS CALM ON THE SURFACE, BUT HAD A CONSTANT ENGINE GOING ON UNDERNEATH, AND WHAT I LOVE ABOUT MICHAEL AND HIS FILMS IS THAT I FEEL LIKE THEY'RE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE -- ♪♪ SHOULD GET INTO ONE OF MY CARS.

YOU GET THE WIN.

BUT THEY'RE NOT DUMBED DOWN WHERE HE INSULTS HIS AUDIENCE'S INTELLIGENCE BY TELLING THEM EVERYTHING.

YOU DO HAVE TO DO WORK, AS AN AUDIENCE MEMBER.

IT'S NOT NECESSARILY A CHARACTER THAT'S EASILY ACCESSIBLE OR LIKABLE, WHICH I THINK IS MORE TRUE TO HOW THINGS ARE IN LIFE.

SO -- AND JUST THESE MOMENTS IN HIS FILMS THAT ARE JUST, YOU KNOW, INCREDIBLE CINEMA, JUST BEAUTIFUL MOVING IMAGES.

>> WELL, THAT'S FOR DAMN SURE, IT'S A VERY BEAUTIFUL LOOK, AND MICHAEL, MICHAEL MANN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE DIRECTOR, JUST FOR OUR AUDIENCE.

JUST, BEFORE I GET TO ONE OF THESE PIECES OF BEAUTIFUL CINEMA AND A CLIP, I WANT TO ASK YOU, WHAT IS IT ABOUT MICHAEL MANN, JUST FOR OUR AUDIENCE, TELL US WHAT IT IS ABOUT HE DOES.

YOU'VE TOLD US ABOUT NOT DUMBING DOWN AND MAKING THE AUDIENCE WORK AND YOU LOVE HIS GENRE, GIVE US A FEW THAT YOU REALLY LIKED AND MADE YOU WANT TO DO THIS.

>> WELL, I'VE ACTUALLY, AFTER WORKING WITH HIM, I'VE GONE -- WHEN I WENT BACK, WE WERE SHOOTING, I SEE MICHAEL IN ALL OF HIS FILMS.

I SEE HIM IN "HEAT" AND "THE INSIDER" AND "LAST OF THE MOHICANS" AND "THIEF" AND THE COMMON THREAD I WOULD SAY LARGELY, YOU KNOW, EXTERNALLY, THERE ARE A LOT ABOUT PROCESS.

AND OBSESSION.

AND -- BUT AS AN ACTOR, I WAS SURPRISED ON HOW MUCH MICHAEL IS INTERESTED IN INTERNAL LIFE.

ALMOST 90% OF HIS NOTES ARE INTERNAL LIFE.

HE DOESN'T, YOU KNOW, WASTE TIME WITH A LOT OF CHARACTERS COMING ON FILM AND EXPLAINING EVERYTHING THAT THEY FEEL, WHICH I FEEL IS -- OFTEN YOU KIND OF GET IN SCRIPTS.

YOU CAN'T -- YOU CAN'T GUESS.

THERE'S NO AMBIGUITY, AS A CHARACTER, YOU HAVE TO SAY EVERYTHING YOU FEEL, AND I THINK THAT'S WHY HIS MOVIES ARE SO RICH, AND HE HAS SUCH A SHARP ATTENTION TO DETAIL, AND HE IS RELENTLESS IN THIS -- IN A QUESTION FOR AUTHENTICITY.

>> TELL ME WHAT SORT OF SCENES HERE MATCH THAT.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, REALLY, AUTHENTICITY, KNOWING WITHOUT ACTUALLY TELLING YOU, IN TERMS OF THIS FILM.

>> RIGHT, IN THIS FILM, THERE -- THE ENGINE SOUNDS IS SOMETHING THAT HE IS VERY PARTICULAR ABOUT.

SO, A LOT OF -- SOME OF THE CARS WERE THE REAL THING, AND HE WOULD, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE, LIKE, $70 MILLION, $50 MILLION CARS THAT WERE SHIPPED THERE AND NINE MIKES WERE STRAPPED TO THEM AND DRIVEN DOWN THE TUNNEL, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T REPLICATE THE ENGINE.

YOU KIND OF HAVE TO HAVE THE REAL THING.

SO, EVEN IN WATCHING YOU, YOU GET THE -- WE CAN'T USE THE ENGINE SOUNDS OF THE -- OF THE CARS THAT WERE CRASHING IN THE FILM, SO, THAT KIND OF SPECIFICITY, AND NOT JUST RECORDING IT SITTING ON A TARMAC, ACTUALLY TAKING IT DOWN A TUNNEL SO YOU CAN GET THE SOUND BOUNCING OFF THE BUILDINGS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE IN OUR MOVIE.

>> THAT'S AMAZING.

AND YOU YOURSELF ARE KNOWN TO BE EQUALLY PASSIONATE ABOUT GETTING THINGS RIGHT, ABOUT IMMERSING YOURSELF IN ROLES.

I DON'T KNOW, ARE YOU METHOD, HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE WHAT YOU DO AND HOW YOU GET TOTALLY INTO THE CHARACTERS?

>> YOU KNOW, FOR ME, IT'S KIND OF LIKE -- IT'S NOT METHOD, IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF LIKE MOVING TO A NEW COUNTRY AND I FELT THIS WAY ABOUT THEATER, YOU MOVE TO A NEW COUNTRY AND YOU HAVE TO ADJUST TO THE TIME.

IF, IF YOU ARE IN LONDON, IF I WENT TO LONDON, THE TIME DIFFERENCE IS FIVE HOURS, FOR THE FIRST COUPLE DAYS, IT WOULD FEEL -- I'D FEEL TIRED.

BUT THEN AFTER A FEW DAYS, JUST NATURALLY, BY OR MOW SIS, YOU START TO ADJUST TO THE TIME, AND IT BECOMES NATURAL.

THE SAME THING WITH A CHARACTER.

I LOAD UP ON AS MUCH INFORMATION AS I CAN, REALLY TO JUST CONTROL ANXIETY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, SO I FEEL LIKE THERE'S NOT A STONE THAT I HAVEN'T OVERTURNED.

THEN YOU MOVE TO A COUNTRY, WHICH IS USUALLY A FILM, AND THEN IT'S AWKWARD FOR A COUPLE DAYS AND THEN JUST NATURALLY, FROM WEARING THE COSTUMES OR BEING ON-SET OR THE OTHER ACTORS OR A PIECE OF TECHNICAL THING OR DIRECTION THAT MICHAEL HAS GIVEN YOU, SO, THEN, SUDDENLY, JUST BEING IN THAT PERSON'S SHOES, LITERALLY, FOR, YOU KNOW, 14 HOURS A DAY FOR MONTHS ON END, NATURALLY, YOU JUST KIND OF ADJUST, YOUR BODY ADJUSTS, YOUR MIND-SET ADJUSTS, IT'S MY FAVORITE PART OF ACTING.

FORCED EMPATHY FOR THREE, FOUR MONTHS, SOMETIMES A YEAR, IF YOU ARE INCLUDING PREP, IN YOUR LIFE, YOU KNOW?

SO, THAT, FOR ME, IS -- IT'S NOT -- IT'S KIND OF UNCONSCIOUS, IN A WAY.

>> SO, LET'S GET BACK TO THE ACTUAL SCENES.

YOU SAID SOMETHING AWHILE BACK ABOUT HOW ENZO IS ALL THESE COMPLEX DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS, INCLUDING NOT NECESSARILY LIKABLE.

AND I ACTUALLY FOUND THAT TO BE VERY TRUE, AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS PART OF -- I THOUGHT THAT WAS PART OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS COMPELLING, AS WELL AS OTHER THINGS.

SO, I'M GOING TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP.

THIS IS NOT ONLY THE RACE COURSE, IT'S ACTUALLY INTERACTION BETWEEN YOU AND PENELOPE CRUZ, WHO PLAYS YOUR WIFE, AND SHE'S GOING AT YOU OVER THE DEATH OF YOUR SON.

>> YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO SAVE HIM.

>> YOU BLAME ME FOR HIS DEATH?

>> YES.

YES, BECAUSE YOU PROMISED ME HE WOULDN'T DIE.

>> EVERYTHING -- I DID EVERYTHING.

TABLES SHOWING WHAT CALORIES HE COULD EAT.

WHAT WENT IN, WHAT CAME OUT.

I KNOW MORE ABOUT DYSTROPHY THAN CARS.

>> YOU BLAME YOU.

I BLAME YOU, BECAUSE YOU LET HIM DIE.

>> THE FATHER DELUDED HIMSELF.

THE GREAT ENGINEER.

I WILL RESTORE MY SON TO HEALTH.

SWISS DOCTORS, ITALIAN DOCTORS, [ BLEEP ].

I COULD NOT.

I DID NOT.

>> IT'S SO RAW AND IT'S SO DRAMATIC, AND TO SEE HIM AS THE, YOU KNOW, THE RACE CAR EXPERT AND THEN GETTING INTO THIS VERY PERSONAL SITUATION.

HALF THE STORY, OR MAYBE THE MOST OF THE FILM, IS ABOUT HIS PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS WIFE, WHO IS HIS BUSINESS PARTNER, WITH HIS LOVER, WHO IS THE MOTHER OF HIS NEXT SON.

IT'S VERY, VERY PERSONAL.

>> YEAH, WHICH IS ANOTHER THING THAT I COULD SAY ABOUT, WHAT I LOVE ABOUT MICHAEL'S FILMS, AND I PROBABLY SHOULD SAY, JUST HEDGE PEOPLE'S EXPECTATIONS.

THAT IT VERY EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN A MOVIE WITH A LOOSE PLOT THAT'S AN EXCUSE TO LOOK AT BEAUTIFUL FERRARIS DRIVING IN A BEAUTIFUL TIME, YOU KNOW, IN THE WORLD, YOU KNOW, THE LATE '50s IN ITALY IS BEAUTIFUL, THE COSTUMES ARE BEAUTIFUL, THE -- BUT MICHAEL'S FILMS ARE CHARACTER-DRIVEN.

HE IS COMMITTED AND OBSESSED WITH HAVING THREE DIMENSIONAL CHARACTERS, SO, HOPEFULLY BY THE TIME SOMETHING DOES HAPPEN, THAT YOU ACTUALLY CARE, WHICH SEEMS TO BE -- HONESTLY, HARD TO FIND IN A LOT OF SCRIPTS.

THIS IS A CHARACTER-DRIVEN MOVIE FIRST, WHERE THE SPECTACLE IS -- I'M AVOIDING ALL DRIVING METAPHORS, BUT IT'S EASY TO SAY, IT TAKES A BACKSEAT TO WHAT HIS CHARACTER STUDY IS.

AND -- IN A WAY, THEY ALL -- THEY COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER.

WHO CARES IF ANYONE CRASHES, IF YOU DON'T REALLY -- IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE?

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE I ALWAYS GET SURPRISED WHEN I THINK THAT YOU, AS A YOUNGER MAN, JOINED THE MARINES.

AND I WONDER WHETHER THAT GIVES YOU THE INTENSITY, THE DISCIPLINE, THE CONNECTION WITH RAW REALITY THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO BRING WITH YOU TO HOLLYWOOD AND THIS PROFESSION?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I HAVEN'T ANALYZED IT VERY MUCH, OTHER THAN, I MEAN, A PART OF -- AS FAR AS WHAT INTENSITY I BRING TO A PERFORMANCE -- I WILL SAY THAT I'M -- I LOOK AT A FILM SET NO DIFFERENT THAN I DID A GUN TEAM.

OBVIOUSLY, THE STAKES ARE LIFE AND DEATH IN THE MARINE CORPS, WHERE AS IN THE CIVILIAN WORLD, IN ACTING, YOU'RE PRETENDING THAT THEY'RE LIFE AND DEATH.

BUT THE PROCESS OF WORKING ON IT IS ALMOST THE EXACT SAME.

YOU KNOW, IT'S A GROUP OF PEOPLE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH A MISSION THAT'S BIGGER THAN ANY ONE PERSON.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A ROLE THAT IS A PART OF A WHOLE PIECE, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU, AND THE BETTER THAT YOU DO YOUR JOB, IT ALLOWS SOMEONE ELSE TO DO THEIR JOB, TO THE BEST THEY CAN.

YOU'RE BATTLING, YOU KNOW -- IT'S IMPROVISATION, THERE'S A LOT OF PRESSURE.

YOU'RE BATTLING THE ELEMENTS.

YOU'RE BATTLING TIME.

AND WHEN UNDER THAT KIND OF INTENSE PRESSURE AND SCRUTINY, YOU -- YOU ARE -- YOU HAVE A FRIENDSHIPS AND DYNAMICS THAT IT'S HARD TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT THERE, YOU KNOW, THE CROSSOVER BETWEEN THE MILITARY AND ACTING, ESPECIALLY AS A GROUP OF PEOPLE DOING THIS THING THAT'S BIGGER THAN ANY ONE PERSON, REALLY MADE SENSE TO ME.

AND SO, I DON'T TAKE IT FOR GRANTED.

I -- FILMS BEING IN INDIANA COULD NOT HAVE BEEN MORE OF A SCIENCE FICTION THAT I WOULD BE APART OF THAT WORLD.

I HAD NO CONNECTION TO ANYONE IN ACTING INDUSTRY, MIGHT AS WELL HAVE BEEN AN ASTRONAUT, SO, I DON'T TAKE IT FOR GRANTED.

AND HAVE BEEN THE BENEFICIARY OF MOVIES THAT HAVE GIVEN ME IMAGES AND MOMENTS THAT WILL LAST MY ENTIRE LIFE, SO, I DON'T TAKE IT LIGHTLY.

I THINK IT'S AN INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITY IT'S A DOCUMENT THAT'S GOING TO LAST FOREVER, THAT HAS THE POTENTIAL OF FINDING SOMEONE THAT IS IN A CULTURE THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MINE AND HOPEFULLY WOULD ARTICULATE A FEELING OR GIVE A SIMILAR MOMENT.

WHAT AN AMAZING THING TO BE PART OF.

I DON'T WANT TO MESS IT UP.

>> INDEED, MAYBE NOT AN ASTRONAUT, BUT SOME KIND OF SPACE BEING.

"STAR WARS," YOU'VE DONE "MARRIAGE STORY," YOU'VE DONE SO MANY, I MEAN, "GIRLS," ALL OF THAT.

IT'S MADE YOU MEGA-FAMOUS.

AND EVERYBODY'S TALKING ABOUT HOW YOU ARE, I DON'T KNOW, THE DE NIRO OF YOUR TIME.

AND YOU HAVE NOTHING BUT GREAT STUFF AHEAD OF YOU.

BUT YOU'VE VERY, VERY PRIVATE, APPARENTLY, I WONDER HOW THIS FAME AFFECTS YOU?

BECAUSE IT CAN AFFECT PEOPLE IN VERY DEEP AND DIFFICULT WAYS.

>> WELL, AS I KIND OF GET OLDER, I ADJUST TO IT, SO, IN A WAY, BIOLOGY HAS TAKEN CARE OF SOME OF IT, YOU KNOW, AND I TRY TO LIVE MY LIFE WHERE I, YOU KNOW, I HAVE KIDS, I HAVE A WIFE, I HAVE A FAMILY THAT YOU WANT TO TRY TO PROTECT, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- I SEE HOW YOU CAN GET CAUGHT UP IN IT.

MAYBE BECAUSE I WAS EXPOSED TO THIS LATER ON IN LIFE, I JUST HAVE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE OF IT.

BUT YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW, TO ME, I REALLY THINK IT'S ABOUT PRESERVING YOUR -- KIND OF LIKE -- I DON'T REALLY WANT TO HEAR FROM ACTORS, I WOULDN'T TRUST A LOT OF ACTORS ON REAL ESTATE ADVICE, LET ALONE THEIR OPINIONS ON, YOU KNOW, SO, I TRY TO, YOU KNOW, TRY TO KEEP IT TO THE THINGS WE'RE WORKING ON AND NOT TAKE AWAY FROM -- NOT MESS UP THIS THING BY SAYING SOMETHING STUPID, BUT ALSO JUST -- IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT INTERESTING.

I -- IT KIND OF TAKES AWAY FROM YOUR JOB, WHICH IS TO BE A SPY AND TO LOOK AT OTHER PEOPLE AND WHEN THEY'RE LOOKING AT YOU, IT'S AN ADJUSTMENT, IT'S A WEIRD WAY TO BE IN THE WORLD.

>> I LOVE THAT.

TO BE A SPY, AND LOOK AT PEOPLE.

THAT'S VERY COOL.

ADAM DRIVER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>> ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND THE MOVIE "FERRARI" IS YEAR DRAWS TO A CLOSE.

TIME TO REASSESS HOW TO FOSTER STRONGER CONNECTIONS.

AT HOME, AT WORK, AND THROUGHOUT OUR LIVES.

DAVID BROOKS IS AN OPINION COLUMNIST AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND THAT IS THE FOCUS OF HIS LATEST BOOK, "HOW TO KNOW A PERSON: THE ART OF SEEING OTHERS DEEPLY AND BEING DEEPLY SEEN."

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO EXPLORE WHAT IT MEANS TO PRACTICE EMPATHY IN AN INCREASINGLY LONELY WORLD.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

DAVID BROOKS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> IT'S GOOD TO BE BACK.

>> THIS BOOK, "HOW TO KNOW A PERSON," IS PHILOSOPHICAL AND GREAT NARRATIVE IN IT, BUT IT ALSO HAS SOME USEFUL TIPS.

AND ONE OF THEM, IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW A PERSON, START WITH, TELL ME ABOUT GROWING UP.

I'M GOING TO START THERE AND ASK YOU ABOUT GROWING UP AND HOW IT MADE YOU A DETACHED OBSERVER AT FIRST.

>> YEAH, THE STORY I TELL IN THE MOVIE "FIDDLER ON THE ROOF," YOU KNOW HOW EMOTIONAL JEWISH FAMILIES CAN BE, THEY'RE ALWAYS SINGING AND DANCING, I COME FROM THE OTHER KIND OF JEWISH FAMILY.

THE CULTURE IN OUR FAMILY WAS THINK YIDDISH, ACT BRITISH.

YOU COULD HAVE A NICE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE EVOLUTION OF LACTOSE INTOLERANCE.

I WAS NOT THE MOST EMOTIONALLY AVAILABLE PERSON ON EARTH.

SO, I'VE BEEN ON A JOURNEY, REALLY, OVER 15 YEARS AND YOU'VE KNOWN ME FOR A LONG TIME, WALTER, TO TRY TO BECOME A MORE -- A PERSON BETTER AT RECOGNIZING MY OWN EMOTIONS, RECOGNIZING OTHER PEOPLE'S EMOTIONS, BETTER AT INTIMACY AND BETTER CONNECTING WITH PEOPLE.

SO, THE BOOK IS PARTLY, YOU KNOW, WE WRITERS WORK OUT OUR STUFF IN PUBLIC, SO, I JUST WANTED TO BECOME A MUCH BETTER PERSON AT UNDERSTANDING THE PEOPLE AROUND ME AND MAKING THEM FEEL RESPECTED, HEARD, LISTENED TO AND LIT UP.

>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE OLDEST PIECES OF WISDOM I THINK WE HAVE IN HUMANITY IS FROM THE TEMPLE OF THE ORACLE OF DELPHI, KNOW THYSELF.

HOW DID YOU KNOW THYSELF?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I FOUND MYSELF KNOWING MYSELF BY KNOWING OTHERS.

I'M A LITTLE SUSPICIOUS OF JUST SITTING IN A ROOM AND STARING AT YOUR NAVEL, THAT'S NOT MY STYLE.

YOU HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

YOU SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

SO, TO ME, THE ART OF CONVERSATION, IS REALLY THE ART OF BEING A HUMAN BEING, AND SO, YOU KNOW, I LEARNED, LIKE MOST OF US, I WAS NOT AS GOOD AS I THOUGHT I WAS AT BEING A GOOD CONVERSATIONALIST, AT TAKING A MEDIOCRE CONVERSATION AND TURNING IT INTO A MEMORABLE CONVERSATION.

ONE OF THE THINGS I KNOW US CANNED ON IN THE BOOK AND IN LIFE IS JUST ASKING REALLY GOOD QUESTIONS.

SOMETIMES GO TO A PARTY AND I LEAVE AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT WHOLE TIME, NOBODY ASKED ME A QUESTION.

AND I FOUND THAT ONLY ABOUT 30% OR 40% OF HUMANITY ARE QUESTION ASKERS.

I TRY TO ASK PEOPLE BIG QUESTIONS.

AND THESE ARE QUESTIONS, LIKE, IF THIS NEXT FIVE YEARS IS A CHAPTER IN YOUR LIFE, WHAT WOULD THE CHAPTER BE ABOUT?

OR, WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WEREN'T AFRAID, WHAT ROLE DOES FEAR PLAY IN YOUR LIFE?

WHAT WOULD WE BE CELEBRATING A YEAR FROM NOW?

AND THESE ARE QUESTIONS -- PEOPLE DON'T HAVE EASY ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS.

THEY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT.

AND THEN WE HAVE A GREAT CONVERSATION ABOUT SOME OF THE DEEPER ASPECTS OF LIFE, AND WE GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER, AND IN THAT WAY, WE GET TO KNOW OURSELVES.

>> HAS SOCIAL MEDIA HELPED OR HURT US IN BUILDING THESE SKILLS?

>> IT'S BEEN MASSIVELY TERRIBLE.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE SOCIAL STATISTICS OF SUICIDE, DEPRESSION, MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS, THE NUMBER OF AMERICANS WHO SAY THEY HAVE NO CLOSE PERSONAL FRIENDS HAS GONE UP BY FOUR-FOLD SINCE 2000.

THE AMOUNT OF TIME WE SPEND WITH OUR FRIENDS HAS GONE DOWN 60%.

AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAS JUST BEFORE BEEN -- HAD THIS CORROING EFFECT ON OUR ABILITY TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS.

IN SOCIAL MEDIA, THERE'S JUDGMENT EVERYWHERE AND UNDERSTANDING NOWHERE.

PEOPLE ARE PERFORMING THEMSELVES, BUT THEY'RE NOT REALLY VULNERABLE WITH EACH OTHER.

THEY'RE NOT REALLY HAVING THE KIND OF COMMUNICATION THAT HUMAN BEINGS REQUIRE.

AND SO, PART OF THE BOOK IS JUST, LIKE, AN ANTIDOTE TO AN AGE OF SHALLOW, PERFORMATIVE RELATIONSHIPS AND TO GET US BACK TO HAVING, LIKE, REAL CONVERSATIONS, TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE DEPRESSED, TO TALK TO PEOPLE SUFFERING FROM GRIEF, HOW TO TALK TO PEOPLE ACROSS DIFFERENCE.

I THINK SOCIAL MEDIA, THE ACCUMULATING EFFECT ON OUR CULTURE HAS BEEN SURPRISINGLY TERRIBLE.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT THIS EPIDEMIC OF LONELINESS, THAT PEOPLE SAY NOW THAT THEY DON'T HAVE REAL CLOSE FRIENDS.

BUT IT'S GOT TO BE MORE THAN SOCIAL MEDIA.

I MEAN, SINCE ROBERT PUTNAM DID BOWLING ALONE, WE'VE HAD THIS PROBLEM ON OUR RADAR SCREEN WHAT ARE THE OTHER REASONS?

>> YEAH, SO, THE SOCIAL MEDIA STORY, BUT AS YOU SAY, IT'S EVERYWHERE, BUT DENMARK IS NOT HAVING A LONELINESS CRISIS, JAPAN IS NOT.

THERE'S SOMETHING UNIQUE ABOUT THE CULTURE OF SOCIAL MEDIA AS IT INTERACTS WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER CAUSES.

WE'RE JUST LESS ACTIVE IN CIVIC LIFE.

SOME OF IT IT IS, WE HAVE AN INDIVIDUALISTIC CULTURE.

IT MAKES US PRETTY BAD AT SOCIAL CONVENTION.

BUT THE PIECE OF THE STORY I SORT OF FOCUS ON IS SKILLS.

TO GET TO KNOW ANOTHER PERSON, TO CURE LONELINESS, YOU HAVE TO BE OPEN-HAEFRTED, AND THAT'S PART OF IT, BUT IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

YOU'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO PRACTICE CERTAIN PRACTICAL SOCIAL SKILLS.

HOW DO YOU CRITIQUE SOMEBODY IN YOUR WORKPLACE WITH CARE SO THEY FEEL SUPPORTED?

HOW DO YOU BREAK UP WITH SOMEONE WITHOUT CRUSHING THEIR HEART?

HOW DO YOU HOST A DINNER PARTY SO EVERYBODY FEELS INCLUDED?

YOU KNOW, I SAW A STUDY JUST A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, THE NUMBER OF YOUNG MEN WHO HAVE NEVER ASKED ANYBODY OUT ON A DATE IS SUPER HIGH THESE DAYS, AND WHY?

IT'S BECAUSE THEY STINK AT FLIRTING.

THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO ASK PEOPLE OUT.

AND SO IT'S A BASIC LOSS OF SOCIAL SKILLS THAT WE SOMEHOW HAVE FAILED TO TEACH SUCCEEDING GENERATIONS.

>> BASIC LOSS OF SOCIAL SKILLS, BUT YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT A LOSS OF MORAL KNOWLEDGE, AND THAT SEEMED PRETTY PROFOUND WHEN I WAS READING THAT.

HOW DOES THAT CONNECT TO THE LOSS OF SOCIAL SKILLS?

>> WELL, WHAT IS MORALITY?

SOMETIMES WE THINK IT'S OBEYING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, AND I AGREE, IT IS SORT OF THAT, BUT MOSTLY MORALITY IS BEING CON SID RATE TO PEOPLE IN THE COMPLEX CIRCUMSTANCES OF LIFE.

IN OTHER WORDS, MORALITY IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY AS WE TREAT EACH OTHER.

AND THE FIRST MORAL ACT IS THE ACT OF PAYING ATTENTION TO SOMEONE, IS CASTING A GAZE THAT IS WARM, COMPASSION GNAT, UNDERSTANDING.

IF YOU CAST A GAZE THAT'S COLD, YOU'LL FIND PEOPLE ARE UNTRUSTWORTHY.

IF YOU CAST A GAZE WITH YOUR EYES THAT IS SCARED, YOU'LL FIND THREAT EVERYWHERE.

BUT IF YOU CAST A GAZE THAT'S GENEROUS AND TENDER, YOU'LL FIND PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE STRUGGLES OF LIFE DOING THE BEST THEY CAN.

SO, TO ME, WHAT WE HAVE FAILED TO DO IS TO TEACH, TO DO THIS THING CALLED MORAL FORMATION.

IT REALLY MEANS THREE THINGS.

THE FIRST IS, HELPING PEOPLE RESTRAIN THEIR NATURAL SELFISHNESS.

THE SECOND IS, HELPING PEOPLE FIND AN IDEAL, SOME CAUSE OR TRUST THEY CAN SERVE.

AND THIRD, IT'S JUST THESE CONCRETE SOCIAL SKILLS OF TREATING PEOPLE WITH CONSIDERATION IN THE COMPLEX CIRCUMSTANCES OF LIFE.

AND PEOPLE USED TO TEACH THIS, SCHOOLS FELT IT WAS THEIR JOB, THIS IS WHAT WE DO, WE TEACH PEOPLE TO BE CONSIDERATION TO EACH OTHER, AND NOW THE SCHOOLS ARE ABOUT GETTING A JOB, GETTING KIDS INTO HARVARD.

BUT THEY'RE NOT ABOUT CHARACTER FORMATION ANYMORE, AND I THINK THERE'S BEEN A TERRIBLE COST TO THAT.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING REAL CONVERSATIONS.

AND YOU MADE A DISTINCTION ABOUT TWO TYPES OF CONVERSATIONS, AND IT STRUCK ME SO MUCH THAT EVERY TIME I LISTEN TO A CONVERSATION, I APPLY YOUR METRIC, WHICH IS, A CONVERSATION IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE COMMENT-MAKING, IN OTHER WORDS, THEY WANT TO MAKE A COMMENT, THEY WANT TO TOP SOMEBODY'S LAST COMMENT, SAY, OH, YOU KNOW, I CAN TOP THAT, AND A CONVERSATION IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE STORY-TELLING.

THEY'RE TELLING A NARRATIVE.

EVEN MENTIONED OUR MUTUAL FRIEND MICHAEL LEWIS, AND YOU SAID, WHY IS HE SO POPULAR?

HE'S FROM NEW ORLEANS, AND HE JUST TELLS STORIES EVERY TIME YOU ASK HIM SOMETHING, IT'S A STORY-TELLING CONVERSATION.

>> YEAH, ONE OF THE THINGS, FIRST, THE NEGATIVE, HOW NOT TO DO CONVERSATION, YOU REFERRED TO IT.

I FOUND IT REALLY RESONATED WITH PEOPLE IN A WAY I DIDN'T ANTICIPATE.

DON'T BE A TOPPER.

IF YOU TELL ME, OH, I JUST HAD THIS TERRIBLE FLIGHT, I WAS ON THE TARMAC FOR TWO HOURS.

I'M GOING TO SAY, I HAD A TERRIBLE FLIGHT, THREE WEEKS AGO, I WAS ON THE TARMAC FOR FOUR HOURS.

IT SOUNDS LIKE I'M TRYING TO RELATE TOW, BUT REALLY, I'M TRYING TO SAY, LET'S STOP TALKING ABOUT YOU, LET'S START TALKING ABOUT ME AND MY SUPERIOR EXPERIENCES.

THEN, SO, ONE CONVERSATIONAL RULE IS, DON'T BE A TOPPER.

BUT THEN, ON THE PLUS SIDE, AS YOU SAID, IT'S JUST, MAKE IT STORY-TELLING CONVERSATIONS.

SO, EVEN IN -- IN POLITICS, WHEN I'M INTERVIEWING PEOPLE FOR MY JOB, I NO LONGER ASK THEM, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE?

I ASK THEM, HOW DID YOU COME TO BELIEVE THAT?

AND THAT GETS THEM TELLING A STORY ABOUT THEIR VALUES, THEIR FAMILY, AND WE'RE IN STORY-TELLING MODE AND YOU JUST GET A MUCH RICHER VERSION.

>> PART OF THE THEME IN THIS BOOK IS THE NEED TO HAVE EMPATHY TO REALLY DEEPLY FEEL THE PERSON AROUND YOU, AND I'M WONDERING, ARE THERE PEOPLE WHO ARE HARD-WIRED IN SOME WAYS THAT THEY'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT EMPATHY AND HOW WOULD THEY OVERCOME THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, IN MY VIEW, EMPATHY IS LIKE ATHLETIC ABILITY.

SOME OF US ARE BORN WITH MORE AND SOME OF US ARE BORN WITH LESS, BUT WE CAN GET BETTER WITH PRACTICE.

AND TO ME, EMPATHY IS THREE THINGS.

WE THINK OF IT AS A GUSH OF EMOTION, BUT EMPATHY IS THREE SEPARATE SKILLS.

THE FIRST IS THE SKILL OF MIRRORING, IF I WANT TO CATCH THE EMOTION.

YOU'RE ANGRY, I FEEL THAT.

YOU'RE SAD, I FEEL THAT.

SO, I'M MIRRORING.

THE SECOND IS MENTALIZING.

AND THAT'S WHERE I USE MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES TO IMAGINE WHAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH.

SO, IF IT'S YOUR FIRST DAY ON THE JOB, WELL, I'VE BEEN FIRST DAY ON A JOB, I KNOW THE MIX OF EMOTIONS THAT HAPPEN THERE, YOU'RE EXCITED TO BE THERE, YOU ARE ANXIOUS YOU'RE NOT GOING TO LIVE UP, YOU'RE MEETING ALL THESE NEW PEOPLE AND SO I CAN MENTALIZE WHAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH.

AND THEN, THE THIRD IS CARING.

SO, CON ARTISTS ARE REALLY GOOD AT UNDERSTANDING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING, WE DON'T CARE.

SO, WE DON'T SAY THEY'RE EMPATHETIC.

YOU HAVE TO BE EFFECTIVELY CARING.

AND THAT'S DOING THE THING THE OTHER PERSON NEEDS.

I WRITE ABOUT A CASE, AND HE HAD A WOMAN IN HIS CONGREGATION THAT SUFFERED A BRAIN INJURY AND SOMETIMES SHE FELL TO THE FLOOR.

SHE JUST FELL.

AND SHE TOLD HIM, YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE SEE ME FALL TO THE FLOOR, THEY RUSH TO PICK ME UP BECAUSE THEY'RE SO UNCOMFORTABLE SEEING AN ADULT LAYING ON THE GROUND.

BUT WHAT I REALLY NEED AT THAT MOMENT IS FOR SOMEBODY TO JUST GET DOWN ON THE GROUND WITH ME.

AND I THINK THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF EMPATHY.

JUST THE ABILITY TO GET DOWN ON THE GROUND, METAPHORICALLY OR LITERALLY WITH ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AND OFFER THEM WHAT THEY NEED AT A TIME OF STRESS.

>> YOU'VE BEEN WRITING A LOT ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, I KNOW YOU WENT OUT TO SEE SOME OF OPENAI, I'M WONDERING, CAN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, CAN A.I.

EVER FEEL EMPATHY?

EVER KNOW A PERSON?

>> NO.

NO.

YOU KNOW, I -- I TALK TO A LOT OF A.I.

PEOPLE, WE'RE GOING TO ACHIEVE THIS THING CALLED ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE, THE MACHINE TO THINK THE WAY HUMANS DO AND THEN I CALL NEUROSCIENTISTS, I SAY, DO YOU THINK THEY'RE CLOSE TO HAVING MACHINES THAT THINK LIKE HUMANS.

AND THEY WOULD BE A NICE TRICK, THEY SAY, BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW HOW HUMANS THINK.

ONE OF THE REASONS I'M LESS WORRIED ABOUT A.I., I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO HAVE ANYTHING CLOSE TO HUMAN CAPABILITIES FOR A LONG, LONG TIME, AND MAYBE EVER.

SO, IT CAN'T DO BASIC THINGS LIKE UNDERSTANDING, LIKE UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S DOING.

HUMAN BEINGS HAVE A MENTAL MODEL OF THE WORLD AND A.I.

DOESN'T.

IT'S JUST -- IT JUST PREDICTS LANGUAGE.

HUMAN BECOMES HAVE THE ABILITY TO THINK WITH OUR BODIES.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY STRUCK ME RESEARCHING THE BOOK, I'VE ALWAYS INTERVIEWED NEUROSCIENTISTS FOR VARIOUS BOOKS I'VE BEEN WRITING, BUT NOW THEY'RE MUCH MORE INTO THE BODY.

THEY'RE MUCH MORE THINKING THAT THE BRAIN IS NOT JUST AN ISOLATED THING UP IN THE SKULL.

IT'S IN CONSTANT COMMUNICATION THROUGH THE VEGAS NERVE AND OTHER THINGS WITH THE BODY, AND THERE ARE NEURONS IN THE BODY.

AND THE NEURONS IN THE BODY, TO SIMPLIFY THINGS, ARE FEELING, THEY'RE PRODUCING EMOTIONS, AND THERE'S EMOTIONS THAT ARE TELLING US WHAT WE SHOULD VALUE AND WHAT WE SHOULD NOT VALUE, WHO WE LIKE AND WHO WE DON'T LIKE.

AND A.I.

CAN MIMIC THAT.

IT CAN COPY THAT, BECAUSE HUMANS EXPRESSION THEIR EMOTIONS IN LANGUAGE, BUT A.I.

CAN'T HAVE EMOTIONS.

I DON'T WORRY ABOUT A.I.

TAKING OVER THE WORLD, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK IT'S CLOSE TO WHAT WE HAVE.

>> THE FIRST HALF OF YOUR BOOK IS MAINLY ABOUT PERSONAL INTERACTIONS, AND THE SECOND HALF, YOU APPLY THAT MORE TO THE SOCIAL STRIFE, THE THINGS WE'RE FACING TODAY, AND THERE'S A SENTENCE, IF I CAN READ IT TO YOU, SAYS, MANY OF OUR BIG NATIONAL PROBLEMS ARISE FROM THE FRAYING OF OUR SOCIAL FABRIC.

IF WE WANT TO BEGIN REPAIRING BIG NATIONAL RUPTURES, WE HAVE TO LEARN TO DO THE SMALL THINGS WELL.

SO, HOW DOES YOUR BOOK APPLY TO THIS AWFUL PERIOD WE'RE IN IN TERMS OF OUR SOCIAL FABRIC?

>> YEAH, WELL, YOU JUST LOOKED AT -- WE LIVING IN SUCH A BRUTALIZING TIME, YOU LOOK AT THE BIG DATES THAT DEFINE OUR CENTURY, SEPTEMBER 11th, JANUARY 6th, OCTOBER 7th, 2023.

THEY'RE JUST BRUTALIZING.

WE ARE LIVING WITH THIS TIME OF WHERE WE'RE UNDER ASSAULT, WHERE THERE'S VIOLENCE, WHERE THERE'S RHETORICAL VIOLENCE, WHERE THERE'S CANCELING, AND MY VIEW IS THE ONLY REALLY EFFECTIVE AND PRACTICAL RESPONSE TO THAT KIND OF CLIMATE IS A KIND OF DEFIANT HUMANISM, THAT IS SAYING, THE WORLD AROUND ME IS BRUTAL, BUT I'M STILL GOING TO LEAD WITH CURIOSITY, I'M STILL GOING TO LEAD WITH TRUTH, I'M GOING TO LEAD WITH VULNERABILITY, AND SOMETIMES I'LL BE BETRAYED, BUT I'M STILL GOING TO LEAD WITH TRUST, BECAUSE I THINK MOST OF THE TIME, IF I LEAD WITH TRUST, THE PERSON I'M ENCOUNTERING WILL LEAD WITH TRUST.

MOST OF THE TIME, WE'RE GOING TO GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP.

SO, IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW HOW TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS ACROSS RACIAL DIFFERENCE, ETHNIC DIFFERENCE, POLITICAL DIFFERENCE.

AND ONE OF THE TIPS I'VE LEARNED, WHEN PEOPLE COME TO ME WITH CRITIQUE BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH ME FROM THE LEFT OR THE RIGHT IS, MY FIRST INSTINCT IS TO GET ALL DEFENSIVE, BUT WHAT I REALLY WANT TO DO IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES IS TRY TO STAND IN THEIR STANDPOINT.

ASK THEM THREE OR FOUR OR FIVE TIMES, TELL ME MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK, HOW DID YOU COME TO BELIEVE THAT, TELL ME MORE, WHAT I'M I MISSING HERE?

AND IF I ASK THEM THREE, FOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT THEIR POINT OF VIEW, I MAY NOT AGREE WITH THEM OR I MAY NOT PERSUADE THEM, BUT AT LEAST I'M SHOWING THEM RESPECT.

RESPECT IS LIKE AIR.

WHEN IT'S ABSENT, IT'S ALL PEOPLE CAN THINK ABOUT.

WE HAVE TO ASK THEM, WHAT AM I MISSING?

>> THOSE TYPE OF CONVERSATIONS YOU JUST DESCRIBE IS SOMETHING BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WRET ABOUT IN A PIECE CALLED "ON CONVERSATION."

AND HE SAID IT WAS A KEY TO THE DEMOCRACY WE'RE TRYING TO CREATE.

DEMOCRACY'S SO THREATENED AROUND THE WORLD.

IS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ONE >> YOU KNOW, WE THINK OF DEMOCRACY AS THIS THING THAT HAPPENS IN THE VOTING BOOTH OR MAYBE IN THE LEGISLATURE SOMEWHERE, BUT DEMOCRACY IS BASICALLY ABOUT HUMAN ENCOUNTER.

IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW COMING TOGETHER AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER.

COMING TOGETHER AND TRYING TO COMPROMISE.

COMING TOGETHER AND TRY TO SOLVE PROBLEMS AND MAYBE ADD TO EACH OTHER'S VIEWPOINTS.

AND SO, TO ME, DEMOCRACY IS ELEMENTALLY ABOUT THE KIND OF SOCIAL SKILLS THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT HERE.

AND THE OTHER THING ABOUT THE BOOK, AS YOU MENTIONED BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, WE'VE BOTH BEEN AFFECTED BY FRANKLIN, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA OF SELF-IMPROVEMENT IS SUCH AN AMERICAN EMPHASIS, THAT WE'RE JUST GOING TO GET BETTER AND BETTER.

AND FRANKLIN WAS LIKE THE POSTER CHILD FOR SELF-IMPROVEMENT.

JUST COULD NOT STOP TRYING TO LEARN MORE, BE MORE, OBVIOUSLY, THE VIRTUES, THE LIST OF VIRTUES HE CONCOCTED WHEN HE WAS A KID.

AND I THINK WE ALL, AT LEAST I FOLLOW IN THAT, LIKE, I THINK I'M NOT AN EXCEPTIONAL PERSON, BUT I AM KIND OF A GROWER, AND IN BEING A GROWER, I'M DEFINITELY FOLLOWING BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.

>> DAVID BROOKS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>> SUCH AN IMPORTANT ROAD MAP TO HEARING AND SEEING THE OTHER.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A LOOK OF PURE CONCENTRATION.

THIS IS 8-YEAR-OLD FROM LONDON WHO MADE CHESS HISTORY BY BEATING A MASTER 30 YEARS HER SENIOR.

CROWNED BEST FEMALE PLAYER AT AN INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION IN CROATIA OVER THE WEEKEND.

SHE WAS DESCRIBED AS A PHENOMENON.

WHEN ASKED IF AN INTERVIEW THIS MORNING IF SHE EXPECTED TO WIN, SHE HUMBLY REPLIED, I ALWAYS TRY MY BEST TO WIN ALL THE TOURNAMENTS, ALL THE GAMES.

SOMETIMES IT HAPPENS, AND SOMETIMES IT DOESN'T.

WISE WORDS FROM SUCH A YOUNG TALENT.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.