>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE WILL REGROUP AND COME UP WITH ANOTHER SOLUTION.

>> CHAOS IN WASHINGTON AS CONGRESS DOESN'T PASS A SPENDING BILL.

THEN EVIDENCE OF ASSAD BRUTALITY UNEARTHED.

WE HEAR FROM HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST WHO'S JUST RETURNED FROM SYRIA.

>>> AND -- >> IT IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT SAYS WE ARE GOING TO CREATE A NEW VERSION OF A FINANCIAL SYSTEM.

>> TRUMP AND THE BITCOIN BOON.

WE TALK CRYPTO CULTURE WITH THE ATLANTIC'S CHARLIE WARZEL.

>>> ALSO -- >> FAR MORE DANGEROUS ARE THE ONES WHO DON'T WANT IT.

>> A THRILLER TAKES US DEEP INSIDE THE VATICAN.

CHRISTIAN SITS DOWN WITH CAN CLAF DIRECTOR EDWARD VERGER.

>> Announcer: AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

SYLVIA A.

PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

MARK J.BLESCHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANSK COONEY FUND.

KU AND PATRICIA EWAN COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE EVERYONE.

AMERICA FACES CHAOS IN WASHINGTON YET AGAIN.

WITH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT JUST HOURS AWAY FROM SHUTTING DOWN AS WE SPEAK.

TWO SPENDING PLANS HAVE NOW FAILED TO PASS THE HOUSE.

THE LATEST ONE HAD DONALD TRUMP'S SUPPORT, BUT DOZENS OF REPUBLICANS JOINED DEMOCRATS TO KILL THE BILL.

CONGRESS SEEMED READY TO MOVE AHEAD WITH GOVERNMENT FUNDING EARLIER THIS WEEK UNTIL ELON MUSK JUMPED ON TO X TO TAKE THAT BIPARTISAN DEAL AND THEN TRUMP FOLLOWED SUIT.

NOW SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON'S SPEAKERSHIP COULD BE ON THE LINE AS DEMOCRATS CLAIM REAL POWER IN WASHINGTON IS SHIFTING TOWARDS THE MAN THEY'RE CALLING DERICE CIVILLY MR. OR PRESIDENT MUSK.

REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN MEETING TODAY TO TRY AND BREAK THE STALEMATE BUT BARRING A CHRISTMAS MIRACLE, THE PROVERBIAL LIGHTS GO OFF AT MIDNIGHT.

NORM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO IT SEEMED THAT AS OF WEDNESDAY WE HAD A BIPARTISAN DEAL THAT THE PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE SIGNED TODAY AND THEN AS I NOTED THERE IN THE INTRODUCTION, THINGS BLEW UP WHEN ELON MUSK STARTED GETTING INVOLVED AND POSTING OVER 70 TIMES ON X. DONALD TRUMP FOLLOWING SUIT DEMANDING THAT RAISING THE DEBT CEILING ALSO BE INCLUDED IN THIS CR OR DOING AWAY WITH IT ALTOGETHER.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE CURRENT DYNAMIC IN WASHINGTON?

DOES IT SURPRISE YOU AT ALL?

>> SO AS YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN IMMERSED IN THIS PROCESS FOR A LOT OF YEARS, A LOT OF DECADES, AND WE'VE SEEN AS FAR ASS -- FARCES BEFORE, AND THIS TAKES THE CAKE.

THIS IS A TOXIC MIX HERE.

ONE PARSE IS WHILE MIKE JOHNSON IS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, HE BECAME THE SPEAKER WHEN KEVIN McCARTHY WAS OUSTED AND IT TOOK 15 VOTES AND MANY, MANY DAYS BEFORE THEY COULD SETTLE ON THE LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR, MIKE JOHNSON.

JOHNSON, JUST LIKE KEVIN McCARTHY, CAN'T KEEP HIS OWN REPUBLICAN MAJORITY IN LINE.

NOW MIKE JOHNSON IS NO MODERATE.

IN FACT, HE IS PRETTY CLOSE TO A CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST EXTREMIST, BUT HE HAS A WHOLE LOT OF HIS OWN MEMBERS WHO ARE TO HIS RIGHT AND DON'T TRUST HIM BECAUSE HE'S TRYING TO ACTUALLY FIND SOME WAY TO GOVERN.

NOW THEY'RE DOWN TO A SLENDER MAJORITY THAT'S GOING TO BE DOWN EVEN MORE IN JANUARY.

THERE ARE A LOT OF REPRESENT CABS ALREADY WHO CALLED FOR HIS OUSTER, ALTHOUGH THEY DON'T HAVE ANOTHER ALTERNA TIFF, AND HE IS CAUGHT BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP, ELON MUSK, VIVEK RAMASWAMY, THE LATTER TWO BEING BILLIONAIRES WHO TRUMP TABBED TO LEAD A NON-GOVERNMENTAL PROJECT, THE DEPARTMENT ON GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, WHO ARE INTERVENING WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER OF WHAT GOVERNMENT DOES OR HOW IT DOES IT.

AND WE'RE LEFT WITH THIS RIDICULOUS FARCE WHICH BY MIDNIGHT TONIGHT COULD LEAD TO A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN THAT WOULD BE VERY, VERY DISRUPTIVE OVER THIS HOLIDAY PERIOD.

>> NOW YOU'RE HAVING BOTH MIKE JOHNSON AND VICE PRESIDENT OR VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT J.D.

VANCE PUTTING THE BLAME SQUARELY ON DEMOCRATS FOR THE CURRENT SITUATION AND THE FACT THAT WE MAY BE FACING A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN WITHIN JUST A FEW HOURS.

DEMOCRATS HAVE RESPONDED BY SAYING THEY AGREED TO THAT INITIAL BIPARTISAN DEAL, AND IT IS REPUBLICANS WHO BLEW IT UP.

AND NOTE ABLE THAT IN THAT SECO PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT FAILED YESTERDAY, WHICH WAS ENDORSED BY DONALD TRUMP, 38 REPUBLICANS ALSO VOTED NO, ONE OF THEM BEING CHIP ROY.

I'D LIKE TO PLAY SOUND FROM HIM AFTER THAT.

>> TO TAKE THIS BILL YESTERDAY AND CONGRATULATE YOURSELF BECAUSE IT'S SHORTER IN PAGES BUT INCREASES THE DEBT BY $5 TRILLION IS ASININE, AND THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT REPUBLICANS ARE DOING.

I'M ABSOLUTELY SICKENED BY A PARTY THAT CAMPAIGNS ON FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY AND HAS THE TEMERITY TO GO FORWARD TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND SAY THAT YOU THINK THIS IS FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

>> AND IN RESPONSE TO THAT DONALD TRUMP THEN THREATENED CHIP ROY WITH BEING PRIMARIED IN TWO YEARS.

THIS SEEMS TO BE THE MODUS OPERANDI FOR ANYBODY THAT STANDS IN THE WAY OF DONALD TRUMP'S POLICIES AND WHAT HE SUPPORTS, AND THAT IS THREATENING FELLOW REPUBLICANS PUBLICLY WITH PRIMARIES IN THE FUTURE.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE CAN NOW EXPECT TO SEE GOING FORWARD IN TRUMP 2.0?

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT PLAYING OUT WITHIN THE PARTY DYNAMIC AS A WHOLE?

>> YOU KNOW, BRIANNA, I THINK THIS WAS A REALLY BIG FAULT OR PROBLEM FOR DONALD TRUMP.

HE IS NOT YET PRESIDENT SWORN IN FOR HIS SECOND TERM.

HE THREATENED A LOT OF THESE MEMBERS, STARTING WITH CHIP ROY, WITH A PRIMARY.

ELON MUSK SAID THAT HE WOULD PUT HUGE SUMS OF MONEY IN AND 38 REPUBLICANS, AS YOU SAID, BASICALLY SPURNED HIM.

THAT IS NOT A SIGN OF STRENGTH.

IT'S NOT A SIGN OF WHAT WE'VE SEEN BEFORE WHERE WHEN DONALD TRUMP WOULD SAY JUMP, EVERY ONE OF THE REPUBLICANS IN OFFICE BASICALLY SAID HOW HIGH.

SO THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR HIM.

I HAVE TO BELIEVE HE'S NOT GOING TO BE HAPPY WITH ELON MUSK BECAUSE THE FACT IS THAT IT TOOK PAINSTAKING NEGOTIATIONS OVER A FEW MONTHS TO COME UP WITH THAT ORIGINAL DEAL WHICH HAD SOME PRIORITIES FOR DEMOCRATS BUT A WHOLE LOT OF WHAT REPUBLICANS WANTED TO TAKE THE GOVERNMENT INTO MARCH WHEN DONALD TRUMP WITH A FULL SET OF POWER STRUCTURES IN PLACE, FROM THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE, COULD CRAFT HIS OWN PRIORITIES.

OF COURSE, THAT INCLUDES GIANT TAX CUTS.

THIS IS A BAD SIGN.

LET ME NOTE ONE OTHER THING HERE THAT'S PRETTY IMPORTANT.

ON JANUARY 3rd THE NEW CONGRESS CONVENES.

THE REPUBLICAN MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE IS GOING TO BE MORE SLENDER.

THEY WILL BE MISSING VERY SOON THREE OF THEIR OWN MEMBERS, TWO WHO TRUMP HAS PICKED FOR HIS ADMINISTRATION, ONE MATT GAETZ WHO IS RESIGNING.

HE'LL BE DOWN TO A TWO-VOTE MARGE BEGIN, AND WE ALREADY HAVE FAR MORE REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE SAYING THEY WILL NOT SUPPORT MIKE JOHNSON.

THE HOUSE ON JANUARY 3rd CANNOT BEGIN TO DO ANYTHING, AND THAT INCLUDES THREE DAYS LATER ON JANUARY th WHEN THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO CERTIFY THE ELECTORAL VOTES WITHOUT A SPEAKER IN PLACE WHO CAN SWEAR IN THE NEW MEMBERS AND CONVENE THESE SESSIONS.

SO WE'RE HEADED FOR ONE TRAIN WRECK AFTER ANOTHER AND VERY POSSIBLY A SHUTDOWN THAT COULD LAST WELL INTO JANUARY OR FURTHER BEYOND THAT.

THIS REALLY IS A GANG THAT CAN'T SHOOT STRAIGHT AND DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE ANY INTEREST IN GOVERNING.

THEIR INTEREST IS IN BLOWING THINGS UP, AND THEY'RE DOING A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF THAT.

>> BUT LISTEN, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE'RE NOW GETTING INDICATION THAT JOE BIDEN SPOKE WITH DEMOCRATIC LEADERS ON CAPITOL HILL ABOUT THE SITUATION.

HE HAS BEEN VIRTUALLY SILENT THE LAST 48 HOURS IN THIS.

DONALD TRUMP PUBLICLY SAYING IF THERE IS GOING TO BE A SHUTDOWN, LET IT BE BIDEN'S SHUTDOWN.

AS I NOTED, MANY REPUBLICANS PLACING THE BLAME ON DEMOCRATS AND THERE IS A QUESTION OF WHETHER OR NOT GIVEN THE SILENCE WE'VE SEEN FROM THE WHITE HOUSE AND GIVEN THE CONTINUED BLAME FROM REPUBLICANS ON DEMOCRATS WHETHER AMERICANS WILL, INDEED, SAY THAT THIS IS THE FAULT OF DEMOCRATS.

THAT'S TO BE DETERMINED.

THOUGH I DO HAVE A QUESTION TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE ELON MUSK FACTOR BECAUSE HE'S NOT ONLY INVOLVING HIMSELF IN DOMESTIC POLITICS AS WE KNOW BEING THE RIGHT HAND OF DONALD TRUMP, BUT ALSO IN FOREIGN POLITICS AS WELL, MEETING WITH NIGEL FARRARER AND EXTREME GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD.

THE MOST RECENT TO RAISE EYEBROWS IS HIS ENDORSEMENT OVERNIGHT ON TWITTER OF AFD, THE EXTREME RIGHT PARTY IN GERMANY SAYING ONLY AFD CAN SAVE GERMANY.

THAT WAS RESPONDED VERY QUICKLY FROM THE CO-CHAIRMAN OF THE PARTY ALICE WEIDELL SAYING, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

HOW FAR DOES HIS INFLUENCE ACTUALLY EXTEND?

HOW CONCERNING IS THIS THAT HE'S WAITING NOT ONLY U.S.

POLITICS BUT GLOBAL POLITICS?

>> IT'S VERY CONCERNING FRANKLY ON A WHOLE SET OF LEVELS.

ELON MUSK IS BY FAR THE RICHEST PERSON IN THE WORLD AND HE MADE THIS DEAL WITH DONALD TRUMP IN PART, AS MANY OTHER BILLIONAIRES DID, BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY COULD GET EVEN RICHER.

HE HAS COMPLETELY TAKEOVER OVER THAT PLATFORM WHICH HE HAS NAMED IT X.

HIS TWEETS GO OUT TO A COUPLE OF HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE.

WHAT'S HAPPENED TO ELON MUSK IS HE'S BEEN ARE CAPTURED AND LIES THAT HAVE BEEN SAID AND NOW HE'S IN BED WITH THE MOST EXTREME PARTIES IN WESTERN DEMOCRACY.

HE IS PRO PUTIN AND ANTIZELENSKYY.

THE PROBLEM IS EVEN THOUGH HE IS A BUFFOON HAVING A DISREGARD FOR THE TRUTH, HE HAS A PLATFORM THAT IS ALMOST UNMATCHED.

WE OFTEN TALK ABOUT THE PRESIDENTIAL BULLY PULPIT.

>> YEAH.

>> BUT, YOU KNOW, THE BULLY PULPIT THAT ELON MUSK HAS WITH ALL OF THOSE RESOURCES IS EVEN GREATER.

ONE FINAL THING WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND IS DONALD TRUMP -- >> I'M SORRY.

WE'RE TIGHT ON TIME.

HE HASN'T COME OUT PUBLICLY SAYING I'M PRO PUTIN ANTIZE LEN SKIN THOUGH SOMEONE CAN COME TO THOSE CONCLUSIONS.

THERE'S REPORTING ON HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA AS WELL.

NORM, WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>>> WE'RE TURNED TO SYRIA NOW WHERE MASS GRAVES ARE BEING UNCOVERED WITH HALF A CENTURY OF ASSAD FAMILY RULE.

IN A TIME OF LIBERATION, QUESTIONS NOW LINGER WITH MORE THAN 150,000 PEOPLE STILL MISSING.

AT THE HEART OF THE SEARCH IS THE SYRIAN NATIONAL TASK FORCE AND THEY HAVE BEEN REMOTELY TRACKING PROPERTIES AND THEY HAVE PHOTOGRAPHS OF TORTURED BODIES.

WE HAVE THE GROUP'S EXEC TIFF DIRECTOR.

HE'S JUST RETURNED FROM A FACT-FINDING MISSION IN SYRIA.

HE JOINS US LIVE FROM.

THE MOAS, THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TODAY.

YOU HAVE REALLY SOME UPSETTING NEWS AND DAMNING EVIDENCE TO TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT YOU FOUND ON THIS FACT-FINDING MISSION.

YOU CLAIM YOU FOUND A MASS GRAVE JUST OUTSIDE OF DAMASCUS.

YOU SAID GRAVE DIGGERS WHO WORKED AT THE SITE TOLD YOU, QUOTE, FOUR TRACTOR-TRAILER TRUCKS EACH CARRYING OVER 150 BODIES CAME TWICE A WEEK FROM 2012 UNTIL 2018.

THAT WOULD AMOUNT TO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BODIES.

JUST WALK US THROUGH WHAT YOU HEARD, WHAT YOU SAW, WHO YOU SPOKE TO.

>> YEAH.

THE ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, WE HAD IDENTIFIED SOME OF THESE LOCATIONS BACK IN 2021 AS WE HAD INTERVIEWED THE DIFFERENT PEOPLE WHO WORKED ON THE MASS GRAVES.

PEOPLE HAVE TO REMEMBER THERE ARE THE HEAVY MACHINERY WORKERS, BULLDOZER DRIVER, EXCAVATOR DRIVER.

THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT DUG THE TRENCHES IN THE MASS GRAVES AND COVERED THEM UP AFTER CIVILIANS WERE POURED INSIDE AND THEY DROVE THERE AND AS THEY TESTIFIED BEFORE CONGRESS, THE BULL ZOEZER DRIVER, ET CETERA.

WHILE I WAS IN DAMASCUS, THEY INTRODUCED ME TO ANOTHER ONE OF THEIR COLLEAGUE AND TOOK ME TO THESE MASS GRAVE SITES.

THAT WALL AROUND IT WAS ONLY BUILT AFTER WE ANNOUNCED WE KNEW ITS LOCATION.

TODAY WE WERE ABLE TO GO THERE IN COORDINATION WITH THE NEW DAMASCUS GOVERNMENT AND WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS MAKE SURE THEY REMAIN SAFE, UNTOUCHED UNTIL THE RIGHT EXPERTISE IN EXCAVATING, AND WE KNOW 99% CHANCE OUR LOVED ONES WERE BENEATH OUR FEET AND BUILDING THE CASES OF ACCOUNTABILITY STARTING WITH BASHAR AL ASSAD.

>> HOW MANY GRAVE SITES WOULD YOU ESTIMATE THERE ARE IN SYRIA RIGHT NOW?

>> I CAN TELL YOU THE ONES WE KNOW.

THE BULLDOZER DRIVER THAT WORKED THERE EVERY DAY FOR A YEAR FROM 2011 TO 2012 AND THE FUNERAL WORKER BOTH CAME TO THE CONCLUSION BASED ON WHAT THEY WERE SEEING EVERY DAY, THEY IN PERSON BURIED ABOUT 75,000 BODIES.

THESE ARE CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATES.

WHEN THAT WAS FILLED, IT WENT FROM 2012 TO 2018 AT THE FREQUENCY OF THE TRACTOR OR-TRR TRUCKS THAT WERE ARRIVING.

THERE WAS ANOTHER MASS GAVE OUTSIDE OF THAT.

THE THERE IS ANOTHER LOCATION THAT IS SMALLER THAT WAS IN THE 10s OR HUNDREDS.

THERE'S ANOTHER LOCATION AT BAGHDAD BRIDGE AND THE FACT IS IF YOU COUNT EVEN THE SMALLER ONES, WE'RE LOOKING AT HUNDREDS OF MASS GRAVES.

WE ARE LOOKING AT ONE NEAR THE PRISON OVER THERE.

THIS WAS WAY MORE SADISTIC THAN WHAT WE KNEW.

WHAT SYRIANS ON THE GROUND ARE SEEING IS BY FAR THESE ARE THE WORST OF THE 21st CENTURY.

IT HAS NOT SENT IN ITS EXPERTS.

WE RIGHTFULLY THOUGHT THE OTHER COUNTRIES, WE NEED HELP TO PROVIDE CLOSURE FOR FAMILIAR LIS AND WE PRESERVE THE CHAIN OF HE HAD -- EVIDENCE.

>> IT IS HARD TO WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND THE STATISTICS AND I WOULD IMAGINE THEY ARE MORE ON 9 CONSERVATIVE SIDE.

ITS A SO IMPORTANT TO GET PEOPLE ON THE GROUND THERE AND ON THE ISSUE OF ACCOUNTABILITY, YOU HAVE BASHAR AL ASSAD HAS FLED THE COUNTRY.

SO MANY GENERALS HAVE FLED, THOSE THAT YOU WANT TO HOLD TO ACCOUNT ARE NOT IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO GO ABOUT SEEKING JUSTICE AND WE'VE HEARD ALL THE RIGHT WORDS AND LANGUAGE FROM THE LEADER OF HTS RIGHT NOW, BUT WORDS ARE ONE THING.

ACTIONS ARE DIFFERENT.

HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT DOING THAT?

>> I THINK FIRST OF ALL WE SHOULD JUDGE THE NEW DAMASCUS GOVERNMENT JUST BY ITS ACTIONS, JUST AS YOU SAID, NOT BY THE WORDS.

WOMEN, MOST OF THEM ARE NOT BEING TOLD.

IN ENGLAND 60% OF COLLEGE STUDENTS WERE FEMALE.

MORE FEMALE IN UNDERGRADUATE UNIVERSITIES THAN MALES.

THESE ARE THINGS -- THE STUDENTS HAVE HAD THE DOORS CLOSED.

ERR R EVERY TIME WE TRY TO GET A RULING FROM THEM THAT WE GOT IT OUT OF THE IC C. WE LEARNED ABOUT COORDINATING IT AND THERE IS A BRIGADIER GENERAL IN LOS ANGELES AND SAYS HIS TRIAL WILL START IN JANUARY.

LOOK WHEREVER THEY ARE.

WHEREVER THEY ARE, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THEM.

THEY NEED TO FACE A COURT -- ANY COURT BASED ON THE CRIMES THEY'VE SUBMITTED CIVILIANS, INCLUDING AMERICANS, EUROPEANS, ET CETERA.

THERE'S A NEW REPORT OUT.

WE'RE WORKING ON CAPTURING THEM AS WELL.

RUSSIA SHOULD BE PRESSURED TO GIVE UP BASHAR AL ASSAD.

THEY CAN SEE THIS IS A GENOCIDAL MANIAC AND SHOULD GIVE HIM BACK TO FACE JUSTICE.

BARBARA LEAVE HASN'T BEEN IN AND DANIEL RUBENSTEIN ARE IN DAMASCUS RIGHT NOW.

GETTING WORD THEY JUST MET WITH AL SHARA.

HTS, MR. GIRINNI, THEY SAY HE WON'T BE PURSUED.

PERHAPS THIS IS THE FIRST INDICATION THAT THEY WILL BE ELIMINATING THE DESIGNATION OF TERRORIST ORGANIZATION AGAINST THE GROUP.

AN ISSUE IMPORTANT TO YOU, IMPORTANT TO AMERICANS, IMPORTANT TO THIS GROUP OF ENVOYS AS WELL IS AUSTIN TICE.

WHAT IF ANYTHING CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THOSE DEVELOPMENTS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IN TERMS OF THE MEETING WITH THE AMERICAN DELL WILL HE GRACE IT IS GREAT, LOOK, I SAY THE UNITED STATES SHOULDN'T JUST NOT PURSUIT.

DO THEY KNOW ANY OF THAT?

NUMBER TWO, IN TERMS OF AUSTIN TICE, I'VE BEEN ON THE GROUND ALONGSIDE A TEAM GOINGS TO EVERY GEO COORDINATE PROVIDED IT AND WITH THEIR NETWORKS ON THE YOUND TO SEE IF WE COULD FIND ANYTHING ABOUT AUSTIN TICE AND THE OTHER AMERICANS THAT WE KNOW WERE ATTAINED BY THE ASSAD REGIME.

U.S.

AUTHORITIES DON'T KNOW.

AND WE WERE ABLE TO RETURN HIM.

THE DA MASS DAMASCUS GOVERNMENT HELPING US.

SOME LEADS ARE FAKE.

SOME GET US SOMEWHAT CLOSER.

I CAN'T GO INTO MORE DETAILS, BUT HE CONTINUES TO BE A PRIORITY.

>> AND A BIT OF ENCOURAGING NEWS FOR YOU TO THINK THAT THE U.S. IS OFFERING TECHNICAL EXPERTISE AND OTHER SUPPORT TO SYRIA TO DEAL WITH THE DOCUMENTATION OF CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE ASSAD REGIME.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON.

LE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

THE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, THE IRN FLUNS OF PRESIDENT-ELECT DONALD TRUMP IS ALREADY BEING FELT IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

THE THIS TIME -- CHARLIE WARZELL TELLS US HOW HE SEES THE CURRENCY INTERTWINED WITH AN ANTIESTABLISHMENT CULTURE.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THIS MONTH BE THE PRICE OF BITCOIN CRACKED $100,000.

BY THE TIME WE FINISH RECORDING THIS CONVERSATION, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TIME IT WILL BE.

BY THE TIME IT AIRS, I HAVE NO IDEA AGAIN.

PUT THESE NUMBERS IN CONTEXT FOR US.

THIS IS A TECHNOLOGY REALLY MORE THAN IT IS A CURRENCY THAT YOU AND I CAN USE.

>> YES.

SO, YEAH,S MOST PEOPLE HAVE BEEN EXMOWSED TO CRYPTOCURRENCIES IN GENERAL OR BITCOIN THROUGH THIS RISE THAT IT HAS HAD SINCE IT REALLY CAME INTO THE WORLD.

IT IS A WILD TECHNOLOGICAL STORY.

WHETHER YOU ARE A PROPONENT OF BITCOIN OR NOT, IT HAS I THINK SURPASSED ANYONE'S EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT IT COULD DO.

ITS FIRST REAL SUSTAINED BOOM WAS AROUND 2017 WHERE IT JUMPED UP.

IT BROKE -- I REMEMBER IT BREAKING LIKE THE $20,000 PER COIN MARK AND A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID IT'S GOING TO 100,000, IT'S GOING TO A MILLION.

THOSE PEOPLE WERE SORT OF ROUNDLY MOCKED FOR THAT AND IT HAS HAD MASSIVE FLUCTUATIONS SINCE SINCE.

BASICALLY EVERY BOOM HAS A CORRESPONDING BUST IN WHICH SO MANY PEOPLE ARE WIPED OUT, SO MANY RETAIL INVESTORS.

AVERAGE PEOPLE TEND TO LOSE THEIR HAT ON THAT, BUT IT HAS CONTINUED THROUGH ALL OF THE MEMES, ALL OF THE DERISION TO RISE.

THIS LATEST BOOM CORRESPONDS DIRECTLY TO DONALD TRUMP WINNING THE ELECTION IN NOVEMBER AND PROMISING SORT OF A PROSPEROUS FUTURE FOR BITCOIN IN AMERICA.

>> NOW ONE OF THE LINES THAT STRUCK ME IN YOUR RECENT PIECE IN "THE ATLANTIC" WAS THAT FUNDAMENTALLY THIS CRYPTO WAS A TECHNOLOGY WHOSE FORMATIVE PRODUCT IS NOT A SERVICE BUT A CULTURE.

EXPAND ON THAT.

>> THE KNOCK HASN'T ALWAYS BEEN CRYPTO DOESN'T HAVE THE KILLER USE CASE, RIGHT?

THE LINE THAT I REALLY LIKE ABOUT IT IS THAT IT IS A SOLUTION IN SEARCH OF A PROBLEM, RIGHT?

MONEY ALREADY DOES ALL OF THE THINGS THAT BITCOIN WANTS TO DO, BITCOIN JUST PURPORTS TO DO IT A LITTLE BIT BETTER.

IT HASN'T REALLY TAKEN OFF, RIGHT?

BITCOIN HASN'T TAKEN OFF AS AN ACTUAL CURRENCY.

THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE TRIED TO USE IT HAVE STRUGGLED TO SOME DEGREE WITH THAT.

THAT'S NOT QUITE THE KILLER APP AND SO I WAS TRYING TO THINK TO MYSELF, THIS THING HAS BECOME DURABLE.

IT IS WORTH A LOT OF MONEY.

IT HAS MADE A LOT OF PEOPLE RICH.

I COULDN'T REALLY COME TO ANY OTHER CONCLUSION THAN WHAT IT HAS DONE IS IT HAS CREATED A CULTURE THAT IS OBSESSED WITH SPECULATION, OBSESSED WITH GETTING RICH, THAT REALLY CARES ABOUT THE SORT OF GAMBLING ASPECT OF THIS, THE STOCK MARKETY ASPECT OF DAY TRADING AND THE NUMBERS GOING UP AND A REAL CULTURE HAS BEEN BUILT AROUND THAT.

THE CULTURE STARTS WITH THIS IDEA THAT BITCOIN IS IN SOME SENSE A POLITICAL PROJECT, RIGHT?

IT IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT SAYS WE ARE GOING TO CREATE A NEW VERSION OF THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM AND THAT CULTURE, YOU CAN SEE THE THROUGH LINES NOW WHEN YOU GO ONLINE THAT ARE BITCOIN MAXIMALISTS, TRUE BELIEVERS, AND THE DAY TRADERS AND GUYS POSTING MEMES AND STUFF, BITCOIN CAN FREE YOU FROM THE MAN, CAN FREE YOU FROM AUTHORITY, THAT YOU CAN MAKE ALL OF YOUR MONEY THIS WAY WITHOUT HAVING, YOU KNOW, OTHER PEOPLE TAXING IT AND WATCHING IT AND TRANSFERRING IT BACK AND FORTH.

AND I THINK THAT THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTANDING THE APPEAL BUT ALSO WHAT BITCOIN HAS PRODUCED.

BITCOIN HAS IN A BIG WAY PRODUCED THIS CULTURE AND ENRICHED THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY ANTI-INSTITUTIONALIST AND ANTI-AUTHORITY.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP CHANGED HIS MIND ABOUT IT?

HE HAD IN YEARS PRIOR CALLED IT A SCAM AND HE REALLY BY THE SUMMER OF THIS YEAR, EVEN LAST YEAR, EMBRACED IT.

HE ROLLED OUT HIS OWN ESSENTIALLY CRYPTOCURRENCY THAT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, VERY LITTLE DETAILS ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT THAT WOULD DO BUT HE HAS PROJECTED OUT TO SUPPORTERS WHO BELIEVE IN CRYPTOCURRENCIES THAT HE WILL MAKE THE UNITED STATES THE BITCOIN CAPITAL AND CRYPTO CAPITAL OF THE WORLD.

SO WHEN YOU DESCRIBE A CULTURE OF PEOPLE WHO AT ITS CORE TECHNOLOGICALLY WERE ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THAT KIND OF GETS ROLLED INTO THE FOLD OF THE ESTABLISHMENT?

>> SO I THINK DONALD TRUMP'S EMBRACE OF CRYPTOCURRENCY AND BITCOIN IS INCREDIBLY CYNICAL.

I THINK IT IS A POLITICALLY CALCULATED MOVE.

I DON'T THINK JUDGING FROM WHAT I HAVE HEARD IN MY OWN REPORTING, I DON'T THINK DONALD TRUMP UNDERSTANDS BITCOIN.

I DON'T THINK HE'S PAYING STRICT ATTENTION TO THAT OR THAT HE REALLY CARES THAT MUCH ABOUT IT.

I THINK THE REAL REASON IS THAT CRYPTOCURRENCIES AND THE PEOPLE WHO LIKE THEM ARE PEOPLE WHO REALLY DO RESIST THESE INSTITUTIONAL IDEAS, PEOPLE WHO REALLY FEEL THAT -- THEY'RE THE SAME TYPE OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD WANT TO DRAIN THE SWAMP, RIGHT?

THEY'RE THE SAME KIND OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD CHEER ON ELON MUSK AND THE DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY.

THERE IS A BIT OF OVERLAP TO SOME DEGREE WITH THE MAGA PLATFORM, WITH THIS IDEA THAT BANKS ARE SCREWING YOU OVER OR WALL STREET IS SCREWING YOU OVER AND TO SORT OF TAKE CONTROL IN ITS OWN WAY AND WORK IN A FINANCIAL SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE PEOPLE.

I THINK HE SAW HUGE CONSTITUENCY THERE AND DECIDED THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE THEIR FORTUNES IN THIS, WHO ARE SINGLE ISSUE CRYPTO VOTERS AND IN AN ELECTION THAT IS VERY CLOSE, IN AN ELECTION WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE TRYING TO WIN DISAFFECTED MEN ESPECIALLY.

I THINK HE SAW AN OPPORTUNITY THERE TO SPEAK TO THOSE PEOPLE, TO BECOME THE CANDIDATE FOR THOSE PEOPLE AND BY VIRTUE OF THAT I THINK HE SAW IT AS JUST A REALLY GOOD POLITICAL PLAY.

>> THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE BECAME AN INCREDIBLY POWERFUL FORCE.

$200,000 WENT TO SUPPORT PRO CRYPTO CANDIDATES.

HOW DOES THAT INFLUENCE PLAY OUT IN THIS COMING ADMINISTRATION?

>> IT WAS REALLY STAGGERING TO ME AS SOMEBODY WHO COVERS THE TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY PRETTY CLOSELY TO TAKE A BIRD'S EYE VIEW AND SURVEY THE POLITICAL DONATION LANDSCAPE AND SEE CRYPTO'S IMPACT IN IT.

THEY -- AS A LOBBYING CONSTITUENCY THEY PUT THE MOST MONEY IN OF ANY ADVOCACY GROUP IN THE 2024 ELECTION.

THEY -- THEY BACKED A NUMBER OF RACES AND WERE INCREDIBLY SUCCESSFUL.

SO WE'RE TALKING, YOU KNOW, RAISING HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, THROWING THAT INTO THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM IN A REALLY TARGETED WAY, RIGHT?

THEY SAY THAT THIS WAS NOT PARTISAN.

THEY BACKED DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES.

THEY BACKED REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES.

THE ONLY ISSUE WAS YOU HAD TO BE PRO CRYPTO.

AND I THINK IN CERTAIN RACES TOO, ESPECIALLY SOME SMALLER RACES, PEOPLE WERE NOT PREPARED FOR THE INFLUX OF MONEY THEY WERE GETTING.

THE CRYPTO CONSTITUENCY WAS REALLY POWERFUL.

IT WAS A CONCERTED EFFORT BY THE INDUSTRY IN 2024 ESPECIALLY TO SHOW THEIR FORCE, EVEN MORE THAN GETTING THE CANDIDATES, YOU KNOW, ELECTED TO OFFICE.

THAT WAS A GOAL FOR SURE BUT ANOTHER WAS JUST A SHOW OF FORCE TO SAY WE ARE A CONSTITUENCY THAT MATTERS.

YES, YOU MIGHT NOT THINK WALKING AROUND THROUGH THE WORLD THAT PEOPLE WHO LOVE CRYPTOCURRENCIES AND WHO WANT TO SEE CRYPTOCURRENCIES THRIVE, THAT THEY'RE A MEANINGFUL POLITICAL CONSTITUENCY, BUT THEY PUT THE MONEY BEHIND IT TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE.

YOU HAVE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE A LOT OF MONEY OVER THE PAST DECADE.

IN SOME CASES BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OFF OF BITCOIN AND OFF OF THE CRYPTOCURRENCY HOLDINGS.

AGAIN, THEY'RE NOT A MEANINGFUL CONSTITUENCY WITHOUT THAT MONEY, RIGHT?

THEY'RE JUST PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN THIS -- YOU KNOW, THIS TYPE OF FINANCIAL SYSTEM.

BUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE SOME OF THIS MONEY, THEY THREW IT IN THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM.

THEY GOT THE GUY ELECTED WHO PROMISED TO DO SOMETHING -- YOU KNOW, PROMISED TO MAKE A PROSPEROUS FUTURE FOR BITCOIN.

AS A RESULT, THE PRICE GOES WAY UP.

A YEAR AGO BITCOIN WAS HOVERING AROUND 45, $46,000 PER COIN.

IT'S NOW WELL OVER $100,000 PER COIN.

THE INVESTMENT HAS DOUBLED SINCE THEY PUT THIS POLITICAL DONATION STRATEGY IN PLAY.

THOSE PEOPLE HAVE EVEN MORE MONEY AND BE EVEN MORE INFLUENCE AND EVEN MORE PEOPLE TRYING TO COURT THEM.

I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE IS THIS MONEY INFLUENCE FLYWHEEL THAT NORMALLY IS ACTUALLY REALLY HARD TO SEE.

I THINK WE'RE SEEING INFLUENCE THAT'S REALLY NAKED AND WE'RE SEEING THE WAYS IN WHICH THESE PEOPLE SPUN MONEY OUT OF NOTHING, USED IT TO CREATE POWER AND THE POWER IS NOW MAKING THEM MORE MONEY.

IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING PROCESS TO WATCH PLAY OUT.

>> PRESIDENT-ELECT HAS SAID THAT HE WANTS TO HAVE A NATIONAL BITCOIN RESERVE, AND WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, HOW IS THAT GOING TO WORK?

SECOND, IF YOU DO UNDERSTAND THAT, DOESN'T THAT KIND OF INTEGRATE BITCOIN'S VOLATILITY INTO THE LARGER ECONOMY, RIGHT?

I MEAN, LAST TIME THERE WAS A BITCOIN UST WE SAW A COUPLE OF BANKS, SILICON VALLEY BANK COMES TO MIND, OR ONES THAT HAD SIGNIFICANT EXPOSURE TO THIS THAT ENDED UP COLLAPSING.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN BITCOIN BECOMES SOMETHING THAT THE GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY HOLDS?

>> SO THIS TO ME IN MY REPORTING WAS THE MOST EYE OPENING AND ALARMING PIECE OF THE CRYPTO INTEGRATION.

THIS -- BITCOIN'S STRATEGIC RESERVE ESSENTIALLY AS I SEEM TO UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE POSSIBLE PLANS IS THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL PURCHASE BITCOIN FROM LARGE HOLDERS, RIGHT, OR EVERYDAY AMERICANS, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO STAND TO BENEFIT FROM THAT ARE PEOPLE WHO OWN A LOT OF BITCOIN, RIGHT?

SO IT'S PURCHASING 200,000 BITCOINS A YEAR FOR FIVE YEARS IS WHAT I BELIEVE IT IS.

BUT REGARDLESS, THE PURCHASE OF THIS BITCOIN FROM LARGE BITCOIN HOLDERS WILL DRIVE THE PRICE OF BITCOIN UP.

SO EVERY SUBSEQUENT YEAR THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS PURCHASING THIS BITCOIN IT'S GOING TO DO SO AT A HIGHER RATE.

IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO SPEND MORE AND MORE MONEY TO CREATE THE STRATEGIC RESERVE.

TO DO SO IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO SELL OFF SOME OF ITS GOLD RESERVES.

THE WAY TO THINK ABOUT THIS IS ESSENTIALLY AS A CASH TRANSFER FROM THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TO THE PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HOLD THE MOST AMOUNT OF BITCOIN THAT WILL ALSO INFLATE THE PRICE OF BITCOIN BECAUSE IT HAS THIS MASSIVE SORT OF UNQUENCHABLE BUYER IN THE UNITED STATES TREASURY.

IT'S A TERRIBLE DEAL FOR THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT BECAUSE IT'S GETTING A WORSE PRICE EVERY YEAR.

IT SPEAKS TO ME AS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THE WAY THAT THESE PEOPLE WHO INVESTED EARLY IN THIS TECHNOLOGY ARE GOING TO TRY TO BULLY INSTITUTIONS AND THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL INSTITUTION.

THAT'S TO SAY NOTHING OF THE FACT BITCOIN IS AN EXTREMELY VOLATILE CURRENCY, RIGHT?

YOU DON'T WANT THIS SPECULATIVE ASSET THAT CAN LOSE HALF ITS VALUE IN SIX MONTHS OR A YEAR AS BACKING YOUR MONETARY CITIZEN.

IT'S DANGEROUS.

THIS IS -- SPEAKS TO THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT I HEARD WHEN I TALKED TO A BUNCH OF CRYPTO SKEPTICS AND PEOPLE INSIDE THE FINANCIAL INDUSTRY, WHICH IS THAT THEIR BIGGEST FEAR ISN'T THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL ADOPT BITCOIN OR CHOOSE A TECHNOLOGICALLY BASED FINANCIAL SYSTEM, THE BIGGEST FEAR IS THAT CRYPTO WILL ENTER 2009 AND MESH WITH THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL SYSTEM IN A WAY WITHOUT ADOPTING ANY OF THE GUARDRAILS THAT IT WILL NEED TO DO AND THEN THERE WILL BE THIS CONTAGION BETWEEN THE CRYPTO ECOSYSTEM AND THE TRADITIONAL FINANCIAL SYSTEM.

WHEN FTX COLLAPSED A LOT OF PEOPLE LOST, YOU KNOW, THEIR LIFE SAVINGS.

IT WAS A -- IT WAS A HUGE, YOU KNOW, FINANCIAL CATASTROPHE.

IT WAS VERY WELL COVERED.

A LOT OF PEOPLE SAW IT, BUT THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL SYSTEM WAS NOT AFFECTED BY THIS.

IF WE PLUG CRYPTO INTO THAT, THESE PEOPLE HAVE TOLD ME WHAT THEY'RE MOST WORRIED ABOUT IS THAT, YOU KNOW, MALFEASANCE OR FRAUD OR WHATEVER THAT'S HAPPENING IN THIS MUCH LESS REGULATED SECTOR COULD COME IN AND HURT PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT DOING THAT KIND OF SPECULATING, WHO ARE TRYING TO INVEST IN SOUND ASSETS AND STABLE ASSETS.

>> AND I WONDER WITH THE INTENTIONAL CHOICES THAT THE PRESIDENT-ELECT HAS MADE SO FAR, HE SAID HE WANTS PAUL ATKINS TO RUN THE SEC AND HE HAS POINTED OR HE IS INTERESTED IN APPOINTING DAVID SACKS, SILICON VENTURE CAPITALIST, WHAT DOES THAT SIGNAL OR GIVE THE FINANCIAL INDUSTRY SOME GREATER CONCERN?

>> I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING FROM DONALD TRUMP'S, YOU KNOW, EARLY APPOINTMENTS AND FROM, YOU KNOW, HIS -- HIS POSTURING ON THIS IS THAT HE'S GOING TO CONTINUE TO PANDER TO THIS CONSTITUENCY, SO I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THAT UNLESS THE INDUSTRY DOES SOMETHING TO, YOU KNOW, TURN HIM OFF OR, YOU KNOW, ATTRACT HIS IRE, I THINK HE'S ONLY GOING TO TRY TO, YOU KNOW, ENMESH CRYPTO WITH THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL SYSTEM.

THERE IS A FEAR INSIDE OF A LOT OF BANKS THAT I'VE HEARD FROM NUMEROUS SOURCES, THEY DON'T WANT TO BE LEFT BEHIND.

THEY DON'T WANT THIS ONE ASSET CLASS TO BE THE HISTORIC 21st CENTURY GROWTH ASSET THAT THEY DO NOT GET BEHIND.

THEY ALSO DO NOT WANT TO BE SEEN AS DINOSAURS, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF THEIR INSTITUTION.

YOU HAVE A LOT OF YOUNGER PEOPLE WHO SEE CRYPTO AS NEW, EXCITING, PART OF THE FUTURE.

THOSE PEOPLE ARE ONLY GOING TO, YOU KNOW, MAKE MORE MONEY, INVEST MORE HEAVILY IN BANKS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, AND WANT TO SEE AN ASSET CLASS THAT THEY BELIEVE IS IMPORTANT.

AND SO THERE'S THIS IDEA OF LIKE FEAR OF MISSING OUT, RIGHT?

THAT THESE BANKS MIGHT WANT TO DO THIS.

AND IF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION COMES IN AND, YOU KNOW, PROPS UP CRYPTO AND, YOU KNOW, OFFERS NO REAL IMPORTANT REGULATIONS AND ALLOWS PEOPLE TO TRADE IT AS A SECURITY, I THINK WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE IS THAT COMINGLING BECAUSE I DON'T THINK BANKS WANT TO BE LEFT OUT OF, YOU KNOW, THE MONEY.

>> CHARLIE WARZALL OF "THE ATLANTIC" THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> THIS WEEK POPE FRANCIS CELEBRATES HIS 88th BIRTHDAY.

AS CHRISTMAS APPROACHES, A NEW FILM IS TAKING US DEEP INSIDE THE VATICAN'S MARCH BELL CORRIDORS.

"CONCLAVE" IS A THRILL ER.

HIS LATEST FILM WITH ITS STAR-STUDDED CAST IS BASED ON ROBERT HARRIS'S 2016 NOVEL WHICH PURPORTS TO LIFT THE LID ON THE HIGHLY SECRET PROCESS OF CHOOSING A NEW POPE.

HE HAS BEEN SPEAKING WITH CHRISTIAN ABOUT THIS.

>> Reporter: BERGER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR DOING THIS?

>> IT PLAYED IN A SIMILAR FIELD TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING EVERY DAY, REPORTING ON POLITICS.

IT'S A POLITICAL FILM FOR ME.

IT HAD ALL THE POLITICAL INTRIGUE OF IT, SO I FOUND THAT VERY INTERESTING.

BUT OBVIOUSLY IN A SETTING THAT WE CAN SORT OF TRANSPOSE SO WE DON'T HAVE TO SEE ANOTHER POLITICAL FILM WHEN WE SEE THE NEWS EVERY DAY SO WE CAN TRANSPOSE IT.

THERE WAS ONE LINE IN THE SCRIPT THAT I REALLY LOVED AND IT SAID IN THE STATE'S DIRECTION, OUT OF THE CROOKED TIMBER OF HUMANITY NO STRAIGHT THING WAS EVER MADE, AND THAT WAS SORT OF WHAT WE REALLY WANTED TO SAY WITH THE FILM.

THAT EVERYONE HAS SOMETHING CROOKED.

>> BOY, DO WE SEE IT BECAUSE THIS, OF COURSE, IS THE NCLAVE OF THE ELECTION AFTER ANOTHER ONE IS DEAD.

IT'S AN ENDLESS AND HISTORICAL EVENT AND YET WE VERY RARELY SEE IT PORTRAYED.

CERTAINLY DON'T SEE IT IN REALITY.

WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR EVIDENCE OR YOUR STORIES ABOUT HOW TO FILM IT?

IS THE ACTUAL CONCLAVE TRUE TO LIFE?

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO ASK BECAUSE THEY CAN ONLY TELL US BUT THEY WON'T.

IT'S SECRET.

I THINK ROBERT HARRIS IS A VERY WONDERFUL NOVELIST AND GREAT RESEARCHER.

WE HAD ACCESS TO ALL OF HIS RESEARCH.

WE TALKED TO AN A WRAY OF CARDINALS WHO GAVE US INSIGHTS AND THEN I HAD A REALLY GREAT RELIGIOUS TEACHER NEXT TO ME FROM ROME.

HE WAS MY ADVISER.

HE TOLD ME THIS IS WHAT THEY WOULD DO.

THIS IS THE PRAYER.

THIS IS THE OATH.

THIS IS THE WAY THEY VOTE.

BUT AT SOME POINT HE ALSO SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT?

NO ONE KNOWS.

>> WHAT WE KNOW, BECAUSE I'VE REPORTED ON AT LEAST ONE ELECTION OF A POPE, IS THE BLACK SMOKE AND THE WHITE SMOKE.

>> WHITE SMOKE.

>> EVERYBODY KNOWS IT.

WE WAIT AND WAIT.

THERE ARE SEVERAL ROUNDS IN THIS UNTIL THEY GET TO A SUPER MAJORITY TO ELECT THE NEXT POPE.

WHAT I FOUND REALLY INTERESTING IS THE POWER STRUGGLE BETWEEN REFORMIST CARDINALS AND THE VERY TRADITIONALIST CARDINALS AND THAT IS PORTRAYED I THINK PRETTY WELL IN THIS CLIP, WHICH IS CARDINAL LAWRENCE.

HE IS PLAYED BY RAY FINES, TALKING TO CARDINAL BELINNI WHO IS PLAYED BY STANLEY TUCCI.

LET'S LISTEN.

>> FATHER BELLINI.

>> AM I THE LAST?

>> NOT QUITE.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> OH, WELL, YOU KNOW, FAIRLY DREADFUL.

HAVE YOU SEEN THE PAPERS?

>> UH-HUH.

>> APPARENTLY IT'S ALREADY DECIDED.

>> AND I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH THEM.

>> WHAT IF I DON'T WANT IT?

NO SANE MAN WANTS THE P APAC Y.

>> SOME OF OUR COLLEAGUES WANT IT.

>> WHAT IF I KNOW IN MY HEART I AM NOT WORTHY.

>> YOU ARE MORE WORTHY THAN ANY OF US.

>> I'M NOT.

>> TELL YOUR SUPPORTERS NOT TO VOTE FOR YOU.

PASS THE CHALICE.

>> AND LET IT GO TO HIM?

I COULD NEVER LIVE WITH MYSELF.

>> POPE FRANCIS HAS BEEN THE REFORMER, HE'S TRIED TO BE.

HE'S HAD SO MUCH PUSH BACK FROM CARDINALS WHO ARE MUCH, MUCH MORE TRADITIONAL.

WAS THAT SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO FOCUS ON?

>> DEFINITELY.

WE WANTED TO REPRESENT THE CURRENT POLITICS OF THE VATICAN AND THE CURRENT WORLD POLITICS.

THEY'RE ALL THE SAME.

>> EXPLAIN THAT.

>> THERE'S TRADITIONALISTS -- POPULIST MOVEMENTS AND LIBERALS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

THESE PARTIES, WE'VE SORT OF LOST THE ABILITY TO LISTEN TO ONE ANOTHER.

EVERYONE IS A FUNDAMENTALIST AND THEY'RE NOT COMMUNICATING ANYMORE.

IT HAS TO BE THIS WAY.

THE OTHER PARTY SAYS IT HAS TO BE THIS WAY.

THEY'RE CLASHING CONSTANTLY.

>> THERE'S SOMETHING I THINK YOU SAID -- THE RAY FINES CHARACTER, CARDINAL LAWRENCE, THE NOT DEMONS BUT CONFLICTS HE HAS ABOUT BELIEVES, PRAYER, ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

THAT'S QUITE INTERESTING TO THINK.

YOU THINK OF THESE PEOPLE BEING ABSOLUTELY CLEAR IN THEIR FAITH AND IN THEIR MAIN STORY LINE.

>> YEAH.

AND THAT'S WHAT REALLY DREW ME TO THE FILM.

HE HAS ONE WONDERFUL SPEECH ABOUT DOUBT, ABOUT DOUBT VERSUS CERTAINTY.

THAT'S ALSO LIBERALISM VERSUS OPINIONS.

DOUBT AND CERTAINTY, ABOUT BEING CERTAIN ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN.

HE'S NOT RIGHT NOW.

HE WANTS TO HAVE A DISCUSSION AND HE WANTS TO FIND IT.

THAT'S SOMETHING I'VE REALLY IDENTIFIED WITH AND WHY I WANT TO MAKE THE FILM.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL THAT AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIVES AM I DOING THE RIGHT THING?

AM I IN THE RIGHT JOB?

AM I IN THE RIGHT LIFE?

THAT'S SOMETHING FOR ALL OF US.

>> IT'S OBVIOUS THAT ALL THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES AND MANY OTHER RELIGIONS, THEY FACE VERY DEEP INTERNAL PROBLEMS.

CERTAINLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND RECENTLY IN THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND, VERY DEEP ISSUES ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE, UNACCOUNTABILITY OF UNELECTED POWER, THE RESIGNATIONS, THE EXPULSIONS.

HOW DID YOU DEAL WITH THAT IN THIS MOVIE IF AT ALL?

>> IT'S NOT A MOVIE ABOUT THAT.

>> I KNOW.

>> WE DIDN'T WANT TO DO, LET'S SAY, AN INVESTIGATION.

IT'S REALLY A DIFFERENT SUBJECT MATTER.

SO WE SPOKE ABOUT IT.

WE HINTED AT IT BECAUSE WE OBVIOUSLY SAID WE CAN'T DO A MOVIE WITHOUT EVER MENTIONING IT.

LE THAT WOULD BE SORT OF PUTTING THE BLINDERS ON IT.

WE MENTIONED IT TWO OR THREE TIMES THROUGHOUT THE MOVIE.

BUT THERE ARE MOVIES LIKE "SPOTLIGHT" WHO INVESTIGATED IT.

.

YOU NEED TO DEDICATE YOURSELF TO IT.

>> NO, NO, I UNDERSTAND IT.

YOU HAVE ONE CARDINAL WHO IS DERAILED BECAUSE OF A QUOTE, UNQUOTE, ME, TOO, INCIDENT.

ANOTHER CARDINAL BRINGS THIS YOUNG WOMAN OVER TO DERAIL THIS BLACK AFRICAN AMERICAN CARDINAL'S CHANCES.

IT TALKED ABOUT THAT ISSUE BUT PRELIMINARILY, CAN WE HAVE THE FIRST BLACK POPE.

THAT'S AN ISSUE.

>> DEFINITELY.

IT'S AN ISSUE IN THE CHURCH.

I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF -- THE CHURCH HAS A PROBLEM -- CATHOLICISM HAS A PROBLEM THAT IT USED TO BE ALL ITALIAN.

THERE WERE FOR 500 YEARS ITALIAN POPES.

THERE ARE 50, 60 CARDINALS.

THEY WANT THEIR ITALIAN AGAIN.

THEY HATE ANYONE FROM ANY OTHER COUNTRY, MOST OF THEM AT LEAST, BUT THEIR FRACTION IS NOT BIG ENOUGH TO VOTE ITALIAN.

IT IS A DIFFICULT THING IN ITALY FOR THE CHURCH TO ACCEPT.

HAVING AN AFRICAN CARDINAL IS PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, THE WORST FOR SOME OF THEN UNFORTUNATELY.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE WE TALKED ABOUT REACTION.

THE I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU'VE HEARD OR WHAT YOU'VE SEEN ON AUDIENCE REACTION, WHAT HAVE YOU NOTICED FROM AUDIENCES?

>> I DON'T LOOK.

>> OKAY.

>> I'M GLAD THAT YOU CAN READ IT TO ME.

>> I'M ACTUALLY GOING TO READ YOU RYE ACTION FROM THE CHURCH RELEASED LAST MONTH AS WE KNOW IN THE UNITED STATES AND AS YOU CAN IMAGINE IN THE UNITED STATES WHICH HAS A SIGNIFICANT FACTION OF VERY TRADITIONALIST CARDINALS.

THIS BISHOP STWEETED THIS.

THIS IS JUST BITS OF IT.

MENT IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN A MOVIE ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THIS IS YOUR MOVIE.

I'M SURE IT WILL WIN A BOAT LOAD OF ADVICE.

RUN AWAY FROM IT AS FAST AS YOU CAN.

HE WAS A PERSISTENT CRITIC OF POPE BENEDICT.

HE TOLD CNN IF I'M NOT MISUNDERSTANDING, THE PLOT TWISTS WERE BIZARRE AND UNBELIEVABLE AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOESN'T SPEAK WITH ONE VOICE.

THE AS YOU CAN SEE, EVERYONE'S GOT ONE OPINION.

I HEARD FROM A LOT OF CARDINALS BEFORE, WE'RE GOING TO WATCH THE MOVIE.

I BELIEVE THEY'RE GOING TO WATCH IT AND ENJOY IT AS IN THE PLOT TWIST.

I WAS SPEAKING ABOUT FUNDAMENTALISM EARLIER, ESPECIALLY IN THE U.S. U.S. CAPITALIST IS MORE FUNDAMENTALIST BECAUSE THEY DON'T REALLY WANT TO LISTEN.

>> THEY ALSO HAVE VERY VESTED INTERESTS.

THEY BELIEVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS TO BE LATIN AND ALL THE CONGREGANTS HAVE TO BE SPEAKING THAT.

THE THEN THERE'S THE FINAL TWIST.

ARE WE GOING TO DISCUSS IT?

>> IT IS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT.

>> WHAT WE CAN TALK ABOUT -- >> YOU'RE RIGHT.

ISABELLA ROSSALINI, DAUGHTER OF INGRIDBERGMAN, SHE DID A PHENOMENAL JOB AND TO SEE HER DAUGHTER LOOK SO MUCH LIKE HER, SHE STOOD UP FOR WOMEN.

WE MAY NOT HAVE A VOICE BUT WE HAVE EARS.

SHE WAS TRYING TO ROOT OUT BUT FOR CATHOLICS, IT'S LIKE WHEN ARE WE GOING TO HAVE WOMEN ELECTED IN SOME POSITION IN CHURCH.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

FEMININITY EVEN THOUGH ISABELLA, THE BIGGEST ALL AROUND CHARISMA IS RELEGATED TO THE 30th LINE HAVING TO BE SILENT AND SHE FINALLY OPENS HER VOICE AND EVERYONE KIND OF APPLAUDS HER, AT LEAST IN THE AUDIENCE.

SHE'S NOT THE ONLY THING -- NOT THE ONLY ELEMENT OF FEMININITY.

>> DO YOU MEAN FEMINISM OR FEMININITY.

>> I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS -- >> NO, I WOULD SAY FEMININITY.

AS THAT IS NOT IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, I WOULD SAY A FEMININE VOICE.

THERE'S SOMETHING THAT WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT THAT AT LEAST RAFE HAS SEEN A CRACK IN THE FOUNDATION OF HIS OLD PATRIARCH.

THAT LIGHT IS TO CHANGE -- THE HOPE FOR CHANGE.

THE FUTURE IS POSSIBLY ALSO IMMINENT.

>> MY GOODNESS, THIS IS REALLY INTERESTING.

I HAVE TO SAY AS A VIEWER, I MEAN, YOU ENDED IT RIGHT THERE.

ON A CLIFF, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

>> YOU HAVE THIS BIG REVEAL AND THE FILM ENDS AND I'M LIKE, OH, CAN WE JUST HAVE SOME MORE?

>> THE FILM COULD HAVE BEEN LONGER.

>> NOT ABOUT LONGER.

MAYBE.

>> WELL, IT MEANS EXACTLY THAT.

MENT POSSIBLY IT'S TIME FOR A CHANGE, YOU KNOW?

IT'S NOT -- I MEAN, WHICH STRUCTURE HAS -- WHAT HAS THAT?

TO BE OPEN FOR THAT AND VOICES FROM ANYWHERE WOULD BE QUITE INTERESTING AND ADVANTAGEOUS FOR THE ORGANIZATION.

>> YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT MANY CATHOLIC WOMEN BELIEVE THAT AS WELL.

AND FINALLY, JUST THE FILMING OF THIS, ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT WAS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LOOK.

THIS WAS A LOT INSIDE STRUCTURES CLEARLY, A LOT OF WALKING AND WHISPERING AND CORRIDORS, BUT IT WAS A LOT OF LIGHT AND SHADE THAT YOU USED.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

WHAT WAS THAT TO DO?

>> WELL, THERE'S A DIRECTOR CALLED ALAN PACULA WHO DID A LOT OF POLITICAL THRILLERS IN THE '70s, "ALL THE PRESIDENT'S MEN" GREAT WASHINGTON WATERGATE SCANDAL.

HE WORKS REALLY WELL WITH PRECISION, ARCHITECTURE, LIGHT AND SHADE.

HE WAS THE INSPIRATION FOR THIS MOVIE.

I WANTED TO DO EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE THAN IN ALL QUIET.

I MEAN, FAEL THE OPPRESSION AND CLAUSTROPHOBIA.

THE SHOWERS GO DOWN.

SO THAT BY THE END WHEN RAFE DOES SEE THIS HOPE FOR CHANGE, IT'S ALMOST A RELIEVE AND YOU HEAR FEMININE LAUGHTER.

>> THAT'S HOW YOU END.

>> THAT'S MAYBE A LITTLE BIT OF RELIEF THAT WE FOUND PROGRESS.

>> GREAT.

WELL DONE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR WATCHING IT.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.