>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": IT'S OUR ANNUAL YEAR IN REVIEW.

ALTHOUGH, LIKE THE ONE BEFORE IT, 2021 HAS FELT MORE LIKE A DECADE, WITH AN ATTEMPT AT INSURRECTION -- YES, THAT WAS THIS YEAR -- A SECOND TRUMP IMPEACHMENT, NEW COVID WAVES, AND EVEN MORE VARIANTS, PARTISAN GRIDLOCK AND INFIGHTING IN D.C., MAJOR SUPREME COURT CASES, MURDER TRIALS, BILLIONAIRES IN SPACE FOR SOME REASON, AND PLENTY MORE.

BUT SINCE WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO GET TO IT ALL, WE'RE FOCUSING ON SOME OF THE THROUGH LINES OF THE YEAR THAT WILL HAVE THE BIGGEST IMPACT ON NEXT YEAR, FROM SYSTEMIC RACISM AND INEQUITY TO STEPS TOWARD PROGRESS AND ACCOUNTABILITY AND THE POLITICAL DYSFUNCTION THAT'S PLAGUED THE DEMOCRATS' CONTROL OF WASHINGTON.

♪♪ ♪♪ >> Braude: SOME OF THE RACIAL FLASHPOINTS OF LAST YEAR, INCLUDING THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD, WHICH SPARKED ONE OF IF NOT THE BIGGEST PROTEST MOVEMENTS IN U.S. HISTORY, CULMINATED IN SOME MEASURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY THIS YEAR.

>> GUILTY.

GUILTY.

GUILTY.

>> Braude: EX-MINNEAPOLIS POLICE OFFICER DEREK CHAUVIN WAS CONVICTED ON ALL CHARGES AND SENTENCED TO 22 YEARS IN PRISON FOR THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD EARLIER THIS MONTH.

HE PLED GUILTY TO FEDERAL CHARGES FOR VIOLATING FLOYD'S CIVIL RIGHTS, TOO.

THE MEN WHO CHASED AHMAUD ARBERY, ONE OF WHOM SHOT AND KILLED HIM DURING A STRUGGLE HE ADMITS HE INITIATED, WERE ALSO HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS MURDER.

BUT REAL JUSTICE IS STILL A LONG WAY AWAY, IN PART EVIDENCED BY THE CRIMINAL TRIAL OF KYLE RITTENHOUSE, THE TEENAGER WHO KILLED TWO BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTORS LAST YEAR WITH AN ASSAULT RIFLE HE WAS TOO YOUNG TO HAVE AND STILL GOT OFF SCOT-FREE.

AND THEN THERE'S THE SPOTLIGHT COVID IS SHINING DIRECTLY ON THE RACIAL DIVIDE.

AFTER STARTING OFF THE YEAR WITH WIDELY UNEVEN VACCINE DISTRIBUTION NUMBERS AND WHITE PEOPLE IN MASSACHUSETTS HAVING GOTTEN CLOSE TO 36% OF ALL VACCINE DOSES BY THE END OF JANUARY, COMPARED WITH LESS THAN 3% AND 4% OF BLACK AND HISPANIC PEOPLE, RESPECTIVELY.

WE FIND OURSELVES IN MUCH THE SAME PLACE IN THE LATEST PHASE OF THE VACCINE ROLLOUT ALMOST A YEAR LATER, WITH MORE THAN HALF OF WHITE FIVE TO 11-YEAR-OLDS IN BOSTON HAVING GOTTEN THEIR FIRST SHOT, COMPARED WITH 8% AND 6% LATINX AND BLACK KIDS, RESPECTIVELY.

RESPECTIVELY.

WE ARE NOTHING IF NOT CONSISTENT, I GUESS.

I'M JOINED NOW BY A MAN WHO KNOWS A THING OR TWO ABOUT THAT ISSUE, ALONG WITH A FEW OTHERS: MICHAEL CURRY, THE PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF THE MASSACHUSETTS LEAGUE OF COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTERS, CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL NAACP ADVOCACY AND POLICY COMMITTEE, AND ONE OF "BOSTON GLOBE"'S 2021 BOSTONIANS OF THE YEAR, AND NANCY GERTNER, RETIRED FEDERAL JUDGE AND SENIOR LECTURER AT HARVARD LAW SCHOOL.

BRAWRMD JUDGE >> Braude: JUDGE GERTNER, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AS WELL.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE BACK.

>> Braude: JUDGE, IS THE CONVICTION OF CHAUVIN AND THE TWO PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER OF AHMAUD ARBERY, DID THAT CHANGE ANYTHING OR ARE THESE JUST EXAMPLES OF STAND-ALONE ACCOUNTABILITY?

>> I THINK THE REVERSE WOULD HAVE BEEN TRUE.

THE FAILURE TO CONVICT WOULD HAVE BEEN SUBSTANTIAL, THE FAILURE TO CONVICT CHAUVIN, THE FAILURE TO CONVICT THE KILLERS OF AHMAUD ARBERY.

I THINK THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT RACIAL ATTITUDES ARE EMBETED IN JURY TRIALS.

AND WHEN A LAW INVITES A JURY TO DECIDE WHETHER THE FORCE WAS REASONABLE, WHETHER SELF-DEFENSE WAS REASONABLE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, ESSENTIALLY ALL OF THE STEREOTYPES WE WALK AROUND WITH FLOOD IN.

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

THAT WAS THE REASON, I THINK, FOR THE RITTENHOUSE VERDICT, IN ADDITION TO THE FACT THAT THE JUDGE PUT HIS THUMB ON THE SCALE.

SO IT IS WHERE WE PLAY OUT ALL OF THE STEREOTYPES.

>> Braude: I WANT TO GO TO A COUPLE OF PEOPLE ON THE STREET, MICHAEL, BEFORE I GET TO YOU, WITH THEIR THOUGHTS ON THE CHAUVIN VERDICT.

HERE THEY ARE.

>> I WAS HAPPY WHEN GEORGE FLOYD'S KILLER WAS PROSECUTED, BUT I DO THINK THIS WAS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT.

>> THIS HAPPENS CONSTANTLY, AND I DON'T FEEL A CHANGE, NOT YET.

BUT I FEEL LIKE THERE IS SOME UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THE PROBLEM IS, BUT THE SOLUTION IS NOT YET -- HAS NOT YET BEEN.

>> Braude: IS THERE A CHANGE, MICHAEL CURRY?

>> I THINK THE CONSCIOUSNESS IS COMING.

I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE HOPEFUL FOR.

BUT AS I SPENT THIS MORNING LOOKING AT THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT FROM THE TAMIR RICE KILLING IN THE 1950s, AND I WAS LOOKING AT THE LANGUAGE THAT REALLY CHARACTERIZED RICE AS A GROWN MAN.

WE SAW IT PLAY OUT WITH EMMETT TILL.

WE SAW THAT PLAY OUT WITH TAMIR RICE.

WE SAW HOW YOU WOULD CHARACTERIZE TRAF MARTINEZ TRAYVON MARTIN AND MANY OTHERS.

THERE IS STILL THE SAME TAINT OF RACE IN OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.

I'LL BE TEACHING A CLASS IN IN NEW ENGLAND, BOSTON, AND I'LL STAY ON THIS.

>> Braude: NOTHING GOOD COMES FROM 800,000 DEATHS FROM COVID IN THIS COUNTRY, HOWEVER, IT DID SHINE A VERY BRIGHT LIGHT ON THE HEALTH INEQUITIES YOU DEAL WITH IN YOUR JOB EVERY SINGLE DAY, AND YOU BELIEVE IT HAS SHED A LIGHT ON A BROADER SET OF THINGS.

AND IT IS ALMOST A REPARATIONS-LIKE APPROACH TO THESE PROBLEMS THAT GO WELL BEYOND HEALTH CARE.

IS ANYBODY PAYING ATTENTION, OR ARE WE ALL JUST TALK AND NO WALK.

>> REBECCA LEE, IN THE LATER PART OF THE CENTURY, SAID THEY HAVE SEEN THIS AGAIN.

THERE IS A CAUSE FOR EVERY ILLNESS, AND IT IS IN THEIR POWER TO REMOVE IT.

SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT IN THE LATE 1800s.

IF YOU'RE LIVING IN COMMUNITIES WHERE YOU'RE LIVING 10 AND 15 YEARS LESS, IF YOUR BLACK AND BROWN, IF YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE HOSPITALIZED AND DIE OF COVID -- THIS IS ALWAYS THE CASE, THOSE CLOSEST TO PAIN AND DISEASE, NOT HAVING ADEQUATE HOUSING OR HAVING ACCESS TO MEDICAL CARE -- WHETHER WIRE WE'RE READY, WILLING, AND ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THIS -- I'M HEARING IT MORE FROM GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, I'M HEARING IT MORE FROM ADVOCATES, BUT NOW WE HAVE TO SEIZE THE OPPORTUNITY.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF OPTIMISM, IF THIS SHOW WAS DONE, SAY, THREE WEEKS AGO, I WOULD HAVE SAID TO YOU HOW CAN YOU NOT BE OPTIMISTIC ON THESE ISSUES.

RACHAEL ROLLINS WAS JUST ELECTED, AND MICHELLE WU WAS JUST ELECTED AS THE FIRST WOMAN, FIRST WOMAN OF COLOR AS THE FIRST MAYOR OF BOSTON, BUT THEN RACHAEL ROLLINS WAS ON TV ABOUT 10 DAYS AGO, TALKING ABOUT WHAT HE HAD TO EXPERIENCE AFTER SHE WAS BRUTALIZED BY REPUBLICANS DURING HER CONFIRMATION HEARING.

AND THEN ON THE RADIO TODAY, MICHELLE WU WAS TALKING ABOUT WHAT SHE EXPERIENCED AS A RESULT OF HER VACCINE MANDATE ANNOUNCED JUST YESTERDAY.

HERE IS ROLLINS AND THEN WU.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T RECOGNIZE AS WOMEN, AND AS WOMEN OF COLOR, AND PARTICULARLY AS A BLACK WOMEN, THE LEVEL OF RACIST, HATE-FILLED DEATH THREATS THAT WE RECEIVED.

MY SECURITY TEAM IS FIELDING CALLS WITH PEOPLE USING THE "N" WORD AND SAYING THEY WANT TO PUT A BULLET IN HIGH MY HEAD.

THEY KNOW I HAVE CHILDREN.

>> EVERY TIME I OPEN MY PHONE, THERE ARE HATEFUL MESSAGES.

THERE IS HATEFUL, RACIST, XENOPHOBIC MESSAGES, AND WHO IS TO BLAME.

AND, UNFORTUNATELY, THIS ISN'T SOMETHING I BEAR ALONE.

I CAN COUNT ON, ON MORE THAN ONE HAND, THE IN NUMBER OF WOMEN OF COLOR, IN MASSACHUSETTS, WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED SIMILAR HATRED, SIMILAR PROTESTS AT EVENTS.

>> Braude: JUDGE GERTNER, I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO ASK.

ALL I KNOW THIS IS NOT GLEN COUNTY, GEORGIA.

THIS IS BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS.

WHAT IS YOU REACTION TO WHAT YOU HEARD FROM MAYOR WU, AND U.S. ATTORNEY TO BE, RACHAEL ROLLINS.

>> WAYNE BUDD WAS THE FIRST BLACK ATTORNEY, >> Braude: FIRST BLACK WOMAN.

>> YES.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS.

IN ONE THING, TRUMP GAVE PERMISSION FOR PEOPLE TO SAY OUT LOUD WHAT THEY HAD NEVER SAID OUT LOUD BEFORE.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS GIVEN PERMISSION FOR PEOPLE TO SAY THAT, AND FOX NEWS AS GIVEN PERMISSION, AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAS ENABLED IT.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE WEREN'T THESE SAME ATTITUDES LURKING BEFORE, BUT THE LEVEL OF -- THE EXTENT TO WHICH PEOPLE FEEL COMFORTABLE TALKING LIKE THIS IS SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

SO I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT IS, YOU KNOW, DRAMATIC CHANGE OR WHETHER THIS IS SURFACING, WHAT PEOPLE MUTTERED BEFORE.

I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW.

I WANT -- THERE IS ONE THING I WANT TO WATCH, BOTH WITH RESPECT TO MAYOR WU AND RACHAEL ROLLINS.

I WANT TO SEE HOW THE GLOBE, IN PARTICULAR, COVERS THIS.

BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS IS THE U.S.

ATTORNEYS IN THE PAST HAVE GOT A PASS, LITERALLY GOTTEN A PASS, FOR THE MOST PART, EXCEPT FOR WOMEN.

AND I WANT TO SEE HOW THEY'RE GOING TO COVER WHAT RACHAEL ROLLINS IS TRYING TO DO.

AND IT IS THE SAME THING WITH MAYOR WU.

THAT MIGHT AFFECT THE OTHER ATTITUDES OUT THERE.

BUT WE'VE GIVEN PERMISSION TO SAY THIS STUFF OUT LOUD, IN WAYS THAT ARE HORRIFYING.

>> Braude: DOES THIS SURPRISE YOU, MICHAEL CURRY?

>> NOT AT ALL.

I THINK -- I'VE TALKED TO NAACP COLLEAGUES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND THEY TELL YOU IF YOU'RE IN THE SOUTH, PEOPLE ARE OVERT WITH THEIR RACISM, AND THAT THEY DON'T LIKE BOSTON BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE SORT OF A FAKE LIBERALISM HERE, AND THEY THINK THEY'RE ALLIES OPEN TO RACE ISSUES, BUT THEY'RE NOT.

WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE POCKETS OF COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE COMMONWEALTH WHERE PEOPLE STILL HARBOR HATE, AND THEY SHOW UP IN OUR HOSPITALS, POLICE DEPARTMENTS, AND PART OF THIS IS JUST KNOWING THE TRUTH ABOUT OURSELVES, OURSELVES AND THE CITY, OURSELVES IN THE COUNTRY.

AS THE JUDGE SAID, RACISM WAS UNBRIDLED BY THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

AND NOW WE CAN'T PUT IT BACK IN THE BOX.

PEOPLE FEEL EMPOWERED TO SAY WHAT THEY THINK.

I ACTUALLY PREFER THAT.

BECAUSE NOW THAT WE KNOW WHAT YOU THINK, WE CAN NOW VOTE YOU OUT.

WE CAN REMOVE YOU FROM POSITIONS WHERE YOU CAN HURT OUR CHILDREN, AND MAYBE THAT POLICY.

SO I WANT TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND THEN I WANT TO GO AFTER YOU AND GET RID OF YOU.

BECAUSE THEY'RE HERE.

>> Braude: TELL THAT TO 70 MILLION PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR THE LOSING CANDIDATE IN THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

LET'S STAY IN MASSACHUSETTS.

THERE WAS ANOTHER BIG ANNOUNCEMENT THAT SET THE STAGE FOR THE YEAR TO COME IN MASSACHUSETTS POLITICS.

>> THERE IS A TON OF WORK THAT IS LEFT TO BE DONE AS WE COME OUT OF THIS PANDEMIC.

AND WE BELIEVE IT IS MOST IMPORTANT THAT WE SPEND THE NEXT YEAR FOCUSING ON THAT.

AND NOT FOCUSING ON -- LET'S CALL IT THE DISCOURSE -- AND THAT IS PROBABLY AN INSULT TO THE WORD "DISCOURSE" -- THAT COMES WITH POLITICAL CAMPAIGNING.

>> Braude: WITH CHARLIE BAKER OUT, AS FOR THE DEMOCRATS, SONIA CHANG-DIAZ, FORMER STATE SENATOR BEN DOWNING, OFFICIALLY WITH ATTORNEY GENERAL MAURA HEALEY EXPECTED TO ANNOUNCE HER DECISION ANY DAY, AND THERE IS LABOR SECRETARY MARTY WALSH.

YOU WORKED VERY CLOSELY WITH GOVERNOR BAKER ON THE ADVISORY CITY, THAT SORT OF THING.

GEOFF DIEHL WAS THE CO-CHAIR AND 2016.

THERE ARE VIRTUALLY NO REPUBLICANS IN THE LEGISLATURE.

EVEN IF A DEMOCRAT, WHO YOU THOUGHT IT WAS TERRIFIC, WAS ELECTED GOVERNOR IN NOVEMBER, ARE YOU TROUBLED BY NOT ONE PARTY CONTROL, BUT TOTAL ONE PARTY CONTROL IN A STATE LIKE MASSACHUSETTS?

>> I'M NOT TROUBLED BY IT.

FOR US IN MASSACHUSETTS, WE DON'T TEND TO BE AS DIVIDED AS A STATE GOVERNMENT AS WE SEE IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

WE CAN COME TOGETHER AND TACKLE SOME REAL SERIOUS ISSUES, AND I'VE WORKED WITH REPUBLICANS IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE ON SOME REALLY CRITICAL HEALTH AND SOCIAL JUSTICE ISSUES.

WHAT CONCERNS ME MOST IS WE BE BOLD ENOUGH NOT TO TRY TO MEASURE OURSELVES AGAINST OTHER STATES, BUT TO LEAD.

WE IN MASSACHUSETTS TEND TO HAVE THAT ATTITUDE, AND WE WANT TO LEAD.

WE WANT TO MOVE THE NEEDLE ON SOME CRITICAL ISSUES.

I THINK THE LEGISLATURE, TO THEIR CREDIT, DID THAT.

>> Braude: I THINK, JUDGE GURT GERTNER, THAT THE VOTERS OF MASSACHUSETTS HAVE HISTORICALLY NOT AGREED WITH MICHAEL CURRY.

I THINK WHY WE HAVE A NUMBER OF REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS, BECAUSE PEOPLE WANTED TO CHECK, I BELIEVE, ON AN OVERWHELMING DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE.

ARE YOU TROUBLED BY THE STATE BEING RUN -- WE DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS THE OUTCOME, BUT IT IS PROBABLY A LIKELY ONE -- THAT THIS IS AN ALL-DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT INFRASTRUCTURE IN THIS CASE?

>> IF THE DEMOCRATIC WAS A MONOLITH, I WOULD BE TROUBLED, BUT IT IS NOT, IT IS REALLY NOT.

IT IS THE CLASSIC VIEW THAT IT IS A BIG TENT, AND IT REALLY IS.

AND WE'VE HAD MODERATE DEMOCRATS, MODERATE LEFT DEMOCRATS.

SO I'M REALLY -- I'M NOT TROUBLED BY THAT.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BAKER IS NOT RUNNING FOR OFFICE AGAIN DOES -- AND IT SORT OF HAPPENED WHEN MARTY WALSH STEPPED DOWN, IT HAS OPENED THE FIELD TO NOT JUST DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES, BUT WOMEN OF COLOR.

THAT'S PHENOMENAL.

THE OUTCOME IS A MORE FREE-FOR-ALL ELECTORAL PROCESS, WHERE THERE ISN'T AN ERR APPARENT WHO WAS THERE BEFORE.

I THINK IT IS INTERESTING WHO COMES OUT OF THIS.

>> Braude: WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE, BUT, MICHAEL CURRY, WHO ARE THE TWO FINALISTS COME NOVEMBER, OF BOTH PARTIES?

>> ULTIMATELY -- I'M NOT SURE WHO IS GOING TO COME OUT OF THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

EVEN AS I TALK TO MY REPUBLICAN FRIENDS, THEY'RE NOT CRAZY ABOUT GEOFF DIEHL, AND THEY'RE NOT SHY TO SAY THAT.

>> Braude: WHO IS THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE?

>> I BELIEVE IT IS MAURA HEALEY'S RACE TO LOSE.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WAITING WITH BAITED BREATH THAT SHE STEP INTO THIS ROLE.

>> Braude: JUDGE, I THINK THAT REPUBLICAN NOMINEE IS THE FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, ANDREW LELLING.

WHO DO YOU THINK THE NOMINEES ARE?

>> I THINK HE WOULD BE AN INTERESTING CANDIDATE.

I THINK HE HAS, I THINK, AN ILLEGITIMATE REPRESENTATION AS A MODERATE, WHEN HE IS NOT.

HE COULD WELL BE THE CANDIDATE.

I HAVE NO IDEA.

BUT I DO AGREE WITH MICHAEL THAT I THINK IT IS MAURA'S RACE TO LOSE.

IT WOULD BE GREAT TO FINALLY BREAK THE SPIN IN MASSACHUSETTS THAT A WOMAN COULD BE GOVERNOR.

THAT WOULD BE A HOOT.

>> Braude: WE'VE NEVER ELECTED ONE.

THERE WAS JANE SWIFT, BUT WE HAVE NEVER ELECTED ONE.

LET'S GO FROM DEMOCRATS ON BEACON HILL TO DEMOCRATS ON CAPITOL HILL.

IT IS A YEAR OF TOUGH MARGINS FOR JOE BIDEN AND HIS ALLIES, WHO HAVE A NARROW MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE, AND A NARROWER ONE IN THE SENATE.

>> THE SENATE BEING EQUALLY DIVIDED, THE VICE PRESIDENT VOTES IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

>> Braude: THERE IS A $2 TRILLION RELIEF BILL, AND A FRACTURE PLAN, BOTH TO KEEP THE GOVERNMENT FROM DEFAULTING, BUT DYSFUNCTION AND DIVIDE ARE EVERYWHERE, EVEN ON AN INSURRECTION THAT THREATENED THE LIVES OF ELECTED OFFICIALS OF BOTH PARTIES, INCLUDING A VICE PRESIDENT MANY EVEN WHEN SOMETHING DOES GET PASSED, EVERY SINGLE DEMOCRAT HAS TO VOTE YES, SOMETHING ONE MAN IN PARTICULAR HASN'T GOTTEN THE MEMO ON.

>> I WILL NOT SUPPORT A RECONCILIATION PACKAGE THAT EXPANDS SOCIAL PROGRAMS AND IRRESPONSIBLELY ADDS TO OUR $29 TRILLION IN NATIONAL DEBT.

THIS IS A NO ON THIS LEGISLATION.

>> Braude: OVER MANCHIN'S, AND A FEW OTHERS OBJECTIONS, INCLUDING KER KYRSTEN SINEMA, THAT IS NOT MUCH ACTION IN SIGHT ON A NUMBER OF TOP DEMOCRATIC PRIORITIES, INCLUDING CLIMATE CHANGE, CHILD CARE, AND PAID FAM FAMILY LEAVE.

WHAT IS 2022 LIKELY TO HAVE IN STORE?

MICHAEL CURRY, THE DEMOCRATS DO HAVE THE POWER WITH NO REPUBLICAN VOTES TO PASS BUILD BACK BETTER, BUT MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IS VOTING RIGHTS PROTECTION, WHICH THEY ALSO COULD PASS WITHOUT ONE REPUBLICAN VOTE.

WHAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE FOR DEMOCRATS IF THEY FAILED TO PASS THOSE TWO VOTING RIGHTS BILLS?

>> WELL, I KNOW WE WERE ON A CALL JUST THIS WEEK WITH NATIONAL AND NAACP LEADERS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

WE WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO ADVANCING A VOTER RIGHTS PROTECTION BILL.

WE WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE GEORGE FLOYD AND POLICING BILL.

AND EVEN THE BUILD BACK BETTER PLAN.

SO I THINK THERE IS A FRUSTRATION WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND PARTICULARLY WITH OUR WEST VIRGINIA FRIEND, WHO IS NOT STEPPING UP AT THIS TIME.

HE IS LISTENING TO OTHERS WHO MAY BE CONTRIBUTING TO HIS CAMPAIGN AND NOT LISTENING TO HIS VOTERS, WHO ARE DESPERATELY IN NEED OF THE RESOURCES THAT BUILD BACK BETTER WOULD PROVIDE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, JUDGE GERTNER, MY SENSE IS THE COURT, THE FEDERAL COURTS, HAS BEEN FAIRLY FRIENDLY TO THIS REFORM FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD THE VOTING LAWS.

IS YOUR SENSE IN THE NEXT YEAR THAT THE FEDERAL COURTS WILL BE FRIENDLY TO WHAT I SEE IS DISENFRANCHISEMENT IN A LOT OF STATES?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT WE CAN UNDERESTIMATE THE IMPACT OF THE CHANGE AT THE TOP.

THERE WAS A COLUMN THIS WEEK THAT WAS TALKING ABOUT WEAPONNIZING THE >> Parker: SUPREME COURT, IDENTIFYING THE ISSUES THEY CARE ABOUT AND LINING UP THE VOTES, AND TAKING POSITIONS NOT BASED ON PRECEDENT BUT BECAUSE THEY CAN.

THEY HAVE ENABLED GERRYMANDERING, THEY HAVE DECIMATED THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

AND THEY SHOW EVERY INDICATION OF BEING LIKE THAT GOING FORWARD.

NOW, THERE WILL BE JUDGES ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT WILL DISAGREE -- THAT WILL ARGUE -- THAT WILL TAKE POSITIONS, RATHER, AGAINST REPUBLICANS' EFFORTS TO STRUCTURE THE ELECTIONS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE STATES.

BUT THE SUPREME COURT'S ULTIMATE DETERMINATION, WHICH HAS TO FALL ON EVERYTHING ELSE -- I DON'T THINK YOU CAN UNDERESTIMATE THIS.

I KEEP ON SAYING THIS COURT IS DOING WHAT IT WANTS BECAUSE IT CAN.

AND THAT IS EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT.

EVERY COURT, UP UNTIL NOW, HAD TO DEAL WITH MIDDLE OF THE ROAD POSITIONS, DEMOCRATIC POSITIONS.

THESE PEOPLE DON'T, AND THEY WON'T.

AND THEY HAVE SHOWN EVERY INDICATION OF DOING WHATEVER THEY WANT.

>> Braude: HERE IS WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THAT COURT, AND HERE IS WHAT A MEMBER SAID ABOUT THAT COURT.

HERE IS ASSOCIATE JUSTICE SEWNSONYA SOTAMAYOR.

>> WILL THIS INSTITUTION SURVIVE THE STENCH THAT THIS CREATES IN THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION THAT THE CONSTITUTION AND ITS READING ARE JUST POLITICAL ACTS?

>> Braude: WE'RE ONLY FIVE OR SIX MONTHS AWAY, JUDGE, FROM A DETERMINATION OF THE COURT ON WHETHER OR NOT THEY ESSENTIALLY GUT ALMOST A 50-YEAR PRECEDENT IN "ROE VS.

WADE."

ONE, WHAT WILL THEY DO?

AND, TWO, IF THEY GUT OR REPEAL OUT RIGHT "ROE VS. WADE," WHAT DOES THAT DO?

THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM IS IT IS A HUGE BOOM FOR DEMOCRATS COME MID-TERM ELECTIONS.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO BOTH?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY DUTY THEY WILL UNDERCUT "ROE VS.

WADE."

THE ONLY QUESTION IS HOW?

WILL THEY STATE, AS JUSTICE KAVANAGH SAID, LET THE STATES DECIDE.

IN OTHER WORDS, NO PROTECTION FOR THIS FEDERAL RIGHT AT ALL.

OR, ALTERNATIVELY, THEY CAN CONTINUE THE PROCESS OF UNDERMINING "ROE VS.

WADE."

SO IT IS NOT REVERSED OUTRIGHT, BUT SUDDENLY IT IS NOW A 15-MONTH PROHIBITION -- AFTER 15 MONTHS, ABORTION IS PROHIBITED -- >> Braude: 15 WEEKS.

>> 15 WEEKS, SORRY.

THAT WOULD BE A VERY LONG PREGNANCY.

I THINK EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE UP TO.

SO EVEN A DIAL A DILUTING OF "ROE VS. WADE" CERTAINLY CREATES AN ISSUE AROUND THE COUNTRY.

I THINK IT WILL MOBILIZE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

IT WILL MOBILIZE WOMEN.

WHAT I'M SECUREIUS ABOUT CURIOUS ABOUT IS I ACTUALLY THINK THE NEXT STEP WILL BE CONSTRICTING CONTRACEPTION.

WILL WE BE MOBILIZING A NEW GENERATION OF WOMEN WHO WILL NOW SEE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL CHOICE BEING UNDERMINED.

BUT I DO THINK IT WILL MOBILIZE PEOPLE.

AND THAT IS A GOOD THING BECAUSE THE "ROE VS. WADE" DEMOBILIZED A MOVEMENT, AND THAT MOVEMENT WILL DEMOBILIZE AGAIN.

>> Braude: MICHAEL CURRY, YOU HAVEN'T SAT ON A BENCH, BUT YOU ARGUED IN FRONT OF THEM, AND DO YOU SHARE THIS JUDGE'S ANALYSIS OF WHERE THE COURT IS GOING?

AND DO YOU SHARE HER ANALYSIS IT IS A MOBILIZER THAT IT -- >> I THINK THE JUDGE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

I TRY TO REMIND MY FRIENDS THAT ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

WE SAW THAT IN SHELBYV.HOLDER."

I. I THINK THE DIRECTION THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING IN IS NOT A SURPRISE.

I AGREE.

WE NEED TO MOBILIZE AND ENERGIZE THE BASE OF FOLKS WHO WANT TO PROTECT "ROE VS. WADE" AND PROTECT VOTING RIGHTS.

I HOPE WE COME TOGETHER ACROSS ALL OF OUR DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS TO REALLY SPEAK UP AND SPEAK LOUDLY AGAINST THIS ACTION.

>> Braude: IN OUR FINAL MINUTES, LET'S STAY ON YOUR LEGAL SKILLS.

JUDGE, FIRST WITH YOU.

THERE IS A MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY WHO IS LEAVING HIS JOB SOON, WHO HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING THE TRUMP OPERATION.

THERE IS AN ATTORNEY GENERAL IN NEW YORK WHO HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING THE TRUMP OPERATION.

THERE MAY BE AN ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES INVESTIGATING SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT APPEARS TO ME IS THE WORST LAWYER OF THE THREE OF US, IS AT MINIMUM AIDING AND ABETTING AN INSURRECTION ON JANUARY 6 OF LAST YEAR.

DO WE END 2022 WITH DONALD TRUMP FACING CRIMINAL CHARGES IN ANY OF THOSE THREE JURISDICTIONS?

>> IT IS HARD TO SAY.

THOSE THREE JURISDICTIONS ARE APPROPRIATELY PAUSING.

JUST SORT OF METAPHORICALLY BEFORE THEY INDICT TRUMP.

BECAUSE WHAT WE SAW WITH THE IMPEACHMENT ACTIONS, WHAT WE SAW WITH THE MUELLER REPORT, THEY HAVE TO HAVE THEIR DUCKS IN PLACE BEFORE THEY DO.

BECAUSE A MISSED SHOT AGAIN, A MISSED, YOU KNOW, ARROW AGAINST TRUMP, JET JUST METAPHORICLY, AGAIN, WOULD HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

I'M NOT TROUBLED THEY'RE NOT TOUTING WHAT THEY'RE DOING, BECAUSE THE ONE THING WE HAVE LEARNED IS EXTREME CARE HAS TO BE TAKEN WITH THIS STEP.

THE STUFF COMING OUT OF THE JANUARY 6 COMMITTEE, I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH IT GOES DIRECTLY TO TRUMP.

ALTHOUGH, FRANKLY, IT COULD.

IN OTHER WORDS, UNDER THE USUAL CRIMINAL OFFENSE, IT CERTAINLY COULD.

>> Braude: HOW ABOUT YOU, MICHAEL CURRY?

WE HAVE A MINUTE.

>> I'M HOPEFUL, BUT I DO KNOW PEOPLE ARE TRAUMATIZED BY ALL OF THIS TRUMP STUFF.

YOU HEAR PEOPLE WHO ARE FRUSTRATED WITH THE JANUARY 6 HEARINGS AND THE PROCESS, THEY ALMOST SAY OKAY, ENOUGH WITH THIS ALREADY.

WE WANT TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

WHEN, IN FACT, WE'RE GIVING DONALD TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT.

WHICH IS WE BECOME FRUSTRATED WITH THE CONVERSATION.

I'M HOPEFUL -- I TALKED TO MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE -- I'M HOPEFUL THEY WILL FIND WHAT THEY NEED TO.

AND I HOPE THEY WILL PROSECUTE AND PEOPLE WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

DON'T SHOOT UNLESS YOU MAKE SURE YOU WILL HIT.

BECAUSE THE REALITY IS IT WILL POWER THAT SIDE OF THE COUNTRY THAT SUPPORTS DONALD TRUMP.

>> Braude: MICHAEL CURRY AND NANCY GERTNER, YOU'VE BEEN MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS YEAR AND "GREATER BOSTON."

I THANK YOU BOTH FOR THAT.

I HOPE WE SEE A LOT OF YOU IN A HAPPIER AND HEALTHIER 2022.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

HAPPY CHRISTMAS.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS.

AND AS ALWAYS, PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org ♪♪