- What is the value of a four year education within the UNC system?

A new study says it's worth more than you might think.

I'm David Crabtree.

Join me along with UNC system President Peter Hans.

For a close look at the return on investment of higher education.

- [Announcer] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Hello, and welcome to this special edition of State Lines.

I'm David Crabtree.

So what is the value of a four year degree education at a North Carolina public University?

Is it worth the investment of time and money and debt?

State lawmakers wanted to know, and now they have an answer.

It's a complicated yet promising answer, and with me to talk about this and more is the president of the UNC system, Peter Hans, President Hans, thanks for coming in to talk with us.

- Thank you for having me, David.

- This came about, this return on investment study by Deloitte, an 80 page study as it turns out.

- It's a lot.

- Because the legislature wanted this.

What led state lawmakers to say, we need to take a look at this.

- Well, the legislature requested the study because of course there has been a lot of national conversation about the value of a higher education degree.

And this has been driven, again at a national level, by a critique of higher education that suggests it costs too much and delivers too little.

Now, I'm happy to report David here in North Carolina, the University of North Carolina is the counter example to that national narrative.

In fact, the cost of a university degree in North Carolina is very affordable, among the most affordable in the country and offers one of the highest returns on investment of any university in the country.

So we're very proud of that.

We always believe that to be true.

Now we have the data to show that it is true.

- So much to unpack in that report, even just looking at the highlights, but as you do, and you've studied this, you've talked about it with the Board of Governors, with state lawmakers, what are the top two or three things that you pulled from this report that people need to know about?

- The things that really stand out to me, David, the value of a college education can never be completely boiled down to one set of numbers.

I believe it's so much more than that.

But the scope of this study was of course, return on investment through career earnings.

And an undergraduate degree from the University of North Carolina system shows a $500,000 extra return to any individual, then if they had not gotten that degree.

If they achieved a graduate degree, if they earn that along the way, it's a million dollar return.

That's the median.

So half would be above that, half would be below.

But one of the most compelling pieces of this, David, as a first generation college graduate, it showed the upward economic social mobility of those North Carolinians who went on to be the first in their family to earn a degree that they were able to provide for themselves and provide for their families, and were proud of that.

That's absolutely part of our mission.

- You know, we've heard people, as you referenced over the years, particularly in recent years, talk about student debt, talk about the high and long payments of student debt, looking at the job market, looking at how job markets have changed.

And said, gee, is it worth it to go through this?

You talk about this though, from not only the standpoint, yes, over the course of a lifetime, the earning potential for people, socialization, learning, having the mind expanded are things you can't necessarily quantify, but you know, it exists with a higher education.

- Well you absolutely do.

The best of higher education allows people to learn about themselves, explore different fields, learn how to think, not what to think.

It's a critical distinction, to establish friendships and networks and experiences that lead to a very full life.

So again, you can never boil higher education down to one set of numbers.

- This also comes on the heels of the decision to keep in-state tuition flat for another year, and we're talking about almost a decade now of doing this, right?

- This will be eight straight years of flat tuition in North Carolina for in-state undergraduates.

There's no other state in the country that can match that record.

I'd love to see us get to a decade to provide that relief for North Carolina families when the cost of college education is so high elsewhere, to be able to provide that value for the people of North Carolina.

And the, again, the return on investment.

That's an extraordinary thing.

It's only possible because we take a disciplined approach to spending, and the people of North Carolina through their elected representatives, have been very generous in investing in the university on a bipartisan basis for decades.

We're incredibly fortunate that's the case.

- You know, my children are grown, but I have a granddaughter now looking at higher education and we're looking at tuition costs around the country, and to look at what's happened here is really remarkable.

That yes, fees have gone up, different things have gone up, inflation has been through the roof in some cases, and it has to have been quite challenging to come back and say, we're going to keep these tuition rates flat, and when you compare them to where the dollar was eight years ago, it's really a downturn in tuition, is it not?

- Well that's right, and particularly when you consider that during those eight years, we had four universities within our system that became part of what is known as the North Carolina Promise Program, which is $500 a semester tuition at Elizabeth City State, at UNC Pembroke, now at Fayville State University, and Western Carolina University.

So there's, again, no state in the country can match that record of flat tuition for eight years in a row and actually lowering tuition at those four institutions, which are primarily what we call access institutions design for transfer students from community colleges, for people from the region, for first generation college students, to be able to avail themselves of that opportunity at an incredibly affordable price and not sacrificing quality along the way.

That's a record every North Carolinian can be proud of.

- Students in marginalized parts of the state, and particularly when you talk about Elizabeth City State, you talk about UNC Pembroke, having these opportunities for higher education is remarkable.

I met a young woman at UNC Pembroke who at 16 thought that she would spend the rest of her life working at a Golden Corral.

She could not see beyond that, and she's brilliant.

She had the chance for education that's affordable through the Promise Program, and now has a strong, I'm going to say A average, I'm not sure of the exact numerical count there, but it was a person that someone saw promise in and said, we can help you do this.

- David, I'm a strong advocate of the point of view that there are many pathways to success.

It doesn't always have to involve a four year degree.

As you know, I'm a evangelist for the community colleges and the certifications and various associate degrees that can be earned there.

Military service, you know, the workforce for some, but there is no denying that people's potential can be fully realized within a higher education setting, and we're so pleased to offer that to the people of North Carolina at an affordable, accessible, high quality manner, and thanks to them, thanks to their support of the university, that's possible.

- Back to the report from Deloitte.

Again, 80 pages or so.

- [Peter] It's a lot, it's a lot of data.

- Have we begun to see how this is going to be used by the system?

- Well, I think it offers us great insight into comparing programs at different institutions and why they might cost a different, essentially be a different cost to each program to produce those programs and what the return on career earnings might be to students who go through those programs.

That's something we're trying to understand better so that we can become, improve our value proposition in that regard.

Clearly, this can be of great value to students and parents, families trying to make decisions about a college education.

We wanna make that data understandable, because again, it's 80 page report.

There's a lot of numbers, a lot of spreadsheets in there who want that information to be understood.

And one thing I'd emphasize too, David here, is that, again, this is very important.

You you want to make sure that there's a promising life and career at the end of your college degree, but it's not to say that everyone should go into those fields which show the most immediate return.

People should study what they love because a life of of passion cannot be valued in dollars and cents alone.

And those people often had the most fulfilling and rewarding lives.

And so, again, I want to tout the return on investment that we have shown through this study, and at the same time, just keep making the point.

It can't be boiled down to dollars and cents alone.

- You also wanna be able, I would presume, to have sustainability for students in their lives beyond what they're earning, but you want to see them when possible, earning those dollars here in North Carolina.

- Absolutely.

This is why we have so many admissions opportunities available to the young people of North Carolina, and not just young people, as you know, I'm trying to expand that more into adult learner opportunities because that's the path forward for so many people.

And whether they're 18 years old, or 28 years old, 38, 48, we'll be there for them to help them.

- You know, in a program, a study as large as this recent return on investment study is, there's going to be pushback.

There's no perfect study, there's no perfect system We always work to make something better, right.

But what type of pushback have you heard so far?

- Well, so the vast, vast majority of our degree programs showed a positive return on investment.

There were a small number that did not show that clearly.

And we've got to analyze the data and meet with people in those programs to better understand why that might be the case.

Is it a mistake in the data?

Is the data not complete?

Because we aren't able to track the data from graduates who move outta state.

We only have the in-state earnings data available to us.

Or are there ways that we can increase the value of those programs, more clearly tie them to career opportunities, or possibly even reduce the cost of those programs so that the value proposition becomes more clear.

And that is our challenge at the moment.

Some of the pushback has been about, well, what are you going to do to address those programs?

And we will, you have my word on it.

- You mentioned earlier you've been an evangelist for the community college system.

You served as a head of that system.

How long were you in that position?

- Three years.

- Three years.

You've been an evangelist for higher education in general, for people as they need it, where they need it, how they need it.

- Decades, yes.

- So I think it is safe to say this value proposition that you talk about, you are confident that it is there, and will continue.

- Well David, you remember President Bill Friday, always called the university the economic engine for North Carolina.

And again, I think we believed that to be true, a lot of evidence that it was true, now we can show that it's absolutely true.

We've gotta extend that opportunity to as many North Carolinians as possible and not leave people behind, not leave areas of our state behind.

- You mentioned earlier, President Hans, that one of the reasons tuition has, you've been able to keep it flat for the past eight years, is what you term the generosity state lawmakers very much who believe in the system, who believe in higher education, and believe in this system that includes 17 campuses across the state.

This past year took a long time to get a budget, but it's a budget that it seems to be well worth waiting for.

- It was a phenomenal budget for higher education.

And again, we're very fortunate.

North Carolina is in the top five states in the country on a per capita basis in funding higher education.

And a few of the states above us are so small in population like Wyoming that it's really not comparable in any way.

So we're again, very, very fortunate that the people of North Carolina through their elected representatives, have made that choice.

I've been president of the university system now, little over three years, and in that time I've seen it with my own eyes, billions of dollars in capital investment to new buildings, fix old buildings, make sure that we have fine facilities on our campuses across the state, a major investment in adult learners, reaching them online because they juggle many responsibilities in life and we've gotta reach them in a flexible manner.

For our faculty and staff over that three years, we've seen a cumulative 14% increase in their compensation and with the stress of inflation during that time, that's been important for them.

They work so hard.

We can just go on and on with the investments that we're advocating for, and the people are investing in the university, and that's why it's especially important to show the legislature and the taxpayers, the citizens, that it's paying off.

It's paying off for them individually and for the state, collectively.

- You know, there are people watching who are aware of given universities within the system.

They're probably big fans, they may be graduates.

They may be heavily invested in it.

And many people also though, just don't realize how vast this system is.

We're talking about a quarter of a million students in the system.

I remember hearing one of the chancellors speaking one night about the faculty numbers were 4,000 on campus.

That's larger than some communities in North Carolina.

It's hard to grasp if you don't live in that world, just how massive this system is.

- Well, it is, David.

You know, I think of it in terms of the higher education side and then the healthcare side of the university system.

On the higher education side alone, we have quarter million students, as you mentioned, 16 universities, the number one residential high school in the nation, in the School of Science of Math in both Durham and now Morganton as well.

Two campuses there.

Tremendous diversity within those 16 campuses.

Five historically black colleges and universities, world-class research institutions in UNC Chapel Hill and NC State.

Arts Conservatory in Winston-Salem, Liberal Arts School in Asheville.

Regional comprehensive institutions spread across the state and large institutions like UNC Charlotte, 30,000 students, UNC Charlotte, Greensboro, ECU, you name it, on and on and on.

I could talk all day about the diversity of that system, which offers so many different choices for students to find the right spot for them.

Now, on the healthcare side, 19 hospitals owned and operated throughout the state, obviously the headquarters of that being in Chapel Hill.

But that has grown to the point where it is nearly the size of our higher education enterprise.

And I view that, again, as a great extension of our service to the people of North Carolina to improve their opportunities at every level.

And we do so much with the healthcare workforce, preparing doctors and nurses and various health professionals, but also care for patients in those communities, often in the rural parts of the state where others don't wish to go because they can't make money.

And that's part of the university's mission too.

- You know, a big part of your mission, I know that you have for all of your chancellors, for the people who work at the university system office, through the healthcare system, through each of us here at PBS North Carolina, is you have deep concern over behavioral health for everyone involved in the system, in particular for college students with what they are up against.

We've had tragedies on some of our campuses, and I know that that runs very deep within your veins of what we can do to reach out to students in better and different ways.

- It does, it's very painful to me to see young people suffering from really what is a epidemic of mental health challenges.

I would say on a college campus, you have resources available to you as a young person that you would not have off a college campus.

And I'd love to see this really be a statewide, a society-wide approach.

We're trying to help that from the healthcare side of the university as well.

Behavioral health is a priority there for the people of North Carolina.

But college students have been suffering, you know, went through the pandemic.

There's really a social isolation piece to this I think that's compounding the problem, not just for college students, again, all young people, whereas we were told by our parents, you know, go outside and play with your friends.

They're inside communicating digitally, and it's not the same.

- Very isolated.

- And it is, it is.

And of course you can just, it's just a matter of common sense.

You can see the rise in rates of anxiety and depression amongst young people, parallel the use of social media.

And of course mental health challenges, again, can't be boiled down to, you know, one thing, but I believe the toxicity of social media contributes to mental health challenges among young people.

They're being fed misery and misinformation, and the algorithms serve up unhealthy body images to young women and political extremism to young men and all of it's just there.

I mean, there are positive examples of social media, you know, standard caveats apply as they say, but it's not healthy for young people.

They're spending an average of eight or nine hours a day on screens.

Their brains are developing, they're being fed this, the stuff, and it's just not healthy for brain development.

And I think we're gonna look back on this time and say, we should have done more.

We should have done more to use this responsibly.

I'm under no illusions that we're gonna curtail large pieces of this, but prefer to accentuate the positive, the connections, the community that can come outta social media and less the negative side, which I believe, again, is helping to fuel the mental health challenges were seeing.

- Just a couple of more things before we wrap up here.

When we look at this value proposition for families, as I'm listening to you talk about behavioral health issues, mental health issues, wonderful progress being made on campuses.

At the same time if a family reaches out and says to you, gee, is my child going to be safe on your campus?

We look at instances now of security breaches and things that have happened.

How do you respond to that parent?

I'm giving you about 30 seconds for that.

- Well, it's a great question.

Our campuses are much safer than their surrounding communities because we have very talented and dedicated public safety professionals.

They're on campus.

Campuses will always remain open.

That's part of who we are, but we absolutely do everything we can to secure them.

- I really appreciate the insight and your time President Peter Hans with the UNC system office.

So much more we could talk about and we will continue to talk about.

But thank you, - I appreciate you more than you know.

- And we thank you for joining us tonight.

I'm David Crabtree.

We'll see you again soon.

[upbeat music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ - [Announcer] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.