The year 202 is headed for the history books.

And you're heade for a correspondents edition of OTR on what happened to yo and for you in this past year.

Sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the Record.

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And now, this edition of Off the Record, with Tim Skubick.

Well guess what?

The year is almost over.

We got a week or so to go.

I want to hear around the table.

Chuck, let's start with you.

The lead story of 2025.

Mary Sheffield elected Detroit's first female mayor.

Okay.

Maybe not so much a story as a through line.

Matt Hall's rise to power i Lansing and the show that he has put on ever since I mean, it's somewhat his legislature.

We're all kind of living in it at this point.

The governor's relationship with President Trump.

Yeah.

House Speaker Hall dominates Capitol politics all year.

do you agree with that, Chuck?

Yeah, I do agree with that.

And a close second for m was going to be the Whitmer Hall find common ground with sometimes controversial.

And let's let's look at the relationship.

And Beth yeah, I tend to agree with you on.

I, you know, we sat down on the interview at the House last year, okay.

And she said, yeah, I'm going to meet with, you know, she was the back channel.

She's the one who started it.

I thought she had somebody in Washington who would open the door, but she sat down on a just after the inauguration and wrote a letter to him in hand, put her cell phone number, and he says, congratulations on winning and let's work together.

And the rest is history.

oh, that makes sense to Tim.

Do you think Donald Trump is going to write her and say, can't we get along, Gretchen?

Well, he basically said, no, but to Bills point I mean, it's only ever been advantageous for her.

Whether or not you agre with the fact that she has done this, she has to represent everybody across Michigan.

And what Michigan stands to gain or lose i any given federal presidential.

Just you know what I'm saying?

Basically, the concept of her not trying to make nice with him, I don't know why that's somewhat surprising to anybody.

We stood more to lose if we had just from the jump, put our foot dow and said, we're not interested in a no brainer, this was a no brainer.

We'll be.

She also had been on the other side.

You think I'm stopping?

Think about what she's she had her fights with Donald Trump, so she knew what that was going to be about in in her last term.

I think you're absolutely right.

She sized up everything she said.

Republican in the white House Republican speaker of the House.

Let me go in here and try to find common ground so that we can get things done for Michigan, at least those things that she was most interested in doing, and that was roads and education.

But she I think another interesting element of it is kind of it.

Yes.

Yeah, suffrage was a big get, but from from the start, I think it was a little bit shocking for people who had lived through the Covi pandemic to see her making nice with the president.

I think also what's been interesting to follow is, is how, you know other Democrats have reacted in veiled comments they've made about that relationship.

And maybe not who should?

Who was the person who said, without naming names, you'll live to regret this number?

What her name was.

I'm I'm.

Dana Nessel.

Dana Nessel and on that note, I think what is interesting, if you look at the lawsuits that Dana Nessel has filed against Trump, or joined you know, with multiple states, the first half of the year, they were largely just Nessel without Whitmer signing on in in like July was basically a line of demarcation where she started joining these suits.

The governor.

So I do think, you know, she is developing a firmer stance on Trump responding to some of what he's doing.

but there is something that switched halfway through the year or two that that caused her to kind of step up about this.

You're right.

Progressive Democrats were slightly ajar with her doing this.

Yeah.

How dare you?

It probably hurts her nationally if she really does have aspirations in that direction.

No, the progressive side.

I know you don't think she's going to run for president, but I'm just saying, the fact that she'd play footsi with Trump and with Matt Hall, I mean, the signal to progressive Democrats or the mainstream Democratic Party is not what they want to see in a potential new president.

I agree with that.

But I think she has to also look big picture and she has to keep her options open.

I agree with you.

I don't think she's interested in running for president, but I think as a wise politician, she wants to keep that door ope in case all the stars line up.

And for some reason she's plucked or it looks like, hey, I've got a good shot at this, or maybe a VP or any of those things, and she can always go back to the defense of, I was the sitting governo of the state, and I was there, as you said, to represent everybody.

And so I had to make.

And the reason I say this is a no brainer.

If you look at her history around the dinner table as she was growing up, was a consummate Democrat and a consummate Republican, working for Bill Milliken and Frank Kelly.

The conversations at those tables okay, besides he not doing well in school.

Okay.

Which which is another story, okay.

Of a robust social life, which this is how this is how you play the game.

You work with people regardless of what they we have an R or D after their name.

Well, and that's the thing that I think there's the most repeating is when you're coming up when you are a state senator, as Whitmer was at one point, or when you're even the attorney general, you are somewhat siloed in your own kind of political party.

You have the freedom to say no.

I think that this Republican idea or this Democratic idea is wrong, depending on if you have a D or an hour after your name.

But once you get to a certain point, and I think that this is something that, you know, maybe this is a if I may be so bold, like a cultural maybe reset where we're so siloed in our own.

If I'm a Republican I can only do Republican things.

We saw that.

Case in point with, Matt Hall having very terse words for Republicans.

We've been fighting to get work projects back in the budget.

I believe Republican budget traitor was what he called one Republican.

But here's the thing.

John represent many people across his district.

Governor Whitmer represents many people across Michigan.

If you really want to be a politician who politics for your people, if you have sort of the right heart, I suppose, if I may be so, I don't know, flowery about that.

You have to represent everybody.

And I know that's a tough pill to swallow, whether you are a staunchly MAGA Republica or a ultra progressive Democrat.

But the higher up you get on that food chain, the more you have to represent everybody, not just the people who help get you there.

So how did Matt Hall pull this thing off?

How did he become dictator?

Well, small “D”.

He's he's kind of a but Trump 2.0 in Michigan.

He he's a disrupter.

he pushes the envelope constantly.

he doesn't care about lobbyists.

No, I mean, look, he's going to do his thing.

And first of all, look at all the press conferences, which you all went to, you know, I mean, there's got to be one going on right now.

They were in session.

It started 24 hours.

They're going to serve lunch.

But he kind of just marginalized, majority leader when he breaks in the Senate.

I mean, he made it all about him and Gretchen Whitmer and what a great relationship they had.

And we should work together.

And he kind of just said, he was Senate Democrats.

And when he breaks, they're kind of irrelevant.

He didn't even think they needed to be involved in the discussions that he was having.

I was struck by the fact tha I think you can make an argument that Speaker Hall is close in touch with the average person and what the average person is dealing with right now in terms of economy.

You have President Trump dismissing affordability, not payin great attention to health care.

And you sit down with Speaker Hall.

You ask him what's going to be the agenda in 2026.

And he says affordability, health care, property taxes, these are things that the average person talking about when they go to balance their checkbook all the time.

And I think he has put himself in touch with that.

He doesn't trashed the president, but he makes it very clear what his agenda is going to be, which is a little different than what the president's agenda has been.

Well, and the Democrat are figuring that out as well, because the polling data suggested that last cycle they were running on all these social issues.

And there's nothing wrong with social issues, except they don't quite get the vote to get you over the line to win.

We cost them the election in 2024.

Now they've gotten the message.

So I think that's the image he'd like to project.

And maybe he does to a certain extent.

But also if you look at like those cuts he made last week, he preserve hundreds of millions of dollars for very wealthy companies while cutting things for, like Flint students, wigs for kids.

there were a lot of, like, low level items that he cut while preserving those.

So I do think you kind of have to read into the details a little more.

The other thing I think is that, you know, we might need more transportation funding at the end of the day because of all the bridges he's burned.

I mean, there he is, come through lik a wrecking ball through Lansing.

And I think he revels in it.

I think he, I think if there is a Democrat, he's not taking off.

He feels that he's not doing his job.

And I think there's a lot within his caucus who have been hungry fo something like that for a while.

And it's resonating with a lot of them.

And I agree with Beth, and I happen to think that some of the win that he's been able to pull off are also somewhat the resul of Democrats unenforced errors.

So, for instance, we talk about minimum wage and sick leave.

you know, we had a huge fight over that at the top of the year.

Democrats had every ability to put that to bed while they still had a trifecta and chose not to.

They handed that ball off to Republicans, giving them the abilit to have some kind of leverage.

You think back to the Democratic trifecta when they completely shut out the Republican caucus in the House, to the point where the House Republicans walked out.

Matt Hall came back.

And it's very clear that that annoyed the ever living, you know, daylights out of him.

and that is something tha he seems to have repeated with.

Again, I hate to go back to it, but the work project cuts saying we don't need to involve you.

Where were you when we needed this negotiated back in 2024?

So, you know, there is something to be said about, do I think that he has an understandin of the machinations of Lansing?

Absolutely.

I also think, though, that there have been several instances where Democrat have served him up a home run, and he has just smacked it straight down the line.

Well, we spent a lot of time here on this table during the past year talking about the government shutdown and the consensus that I got from all the colleagues that sat in those chairs was this was this is probably going to happen.

I don't think he ever wante the government to be shut down.

Do any of you all.

I don't think he necessarily would have cared that much, frankly.

no, I really don't.

He kept saying it's not going to shut down.

Well, in fact, technically two hours it was shut down, but I don't think anybody reads it that way.

It was like no damage was done.

Paul Hall I mean, I, I there's two Matt Halls, there's the outside Matt Hall and there's the inside Matt.

Well what's the difference Well, there's a huge difference.

You tell me a lot of this is bravado.

Okay.

All right.

Okay.

And it doesn't sound bites you know, blah blah blah okay.

Inside is the guys the practical politician.

Well, he's like, everybody else wants to get something done.

Yeah, but you can be both.

You can be.

I'm suggesting that you do this.

Okay.

With three days of his.

But I don't think he wanted to go any further than that.

And I certainly don't think he wanted to have the picture that we had in Washington of a government totally shutting down.

And I think he is very high on the fact that he's looking towards the future.

And let's face it, who in those position doesn't have a little bit of ego or whatever you want to call it?

He very much wants to be speaker, and he makes no bones over the fact that he wants to be the longest serving speaker.

You know that you can be.

He's just got to be sure that he retains a majority.

That's true, that's true.

He could be a blip.

you know, five years from day one, rather than has to be the speaker, and he wants to be the speaker for four more years.

Yeah, exactly.

One word.

Dugan.

Well, a major factor in 2026, a major factor this year.

I mean, he's made everybody sit up and take notice.

He has a, realistic sho to be elected the next governor.

In my opinion.

I don't think he has a realistic shot.

All right.

I think he has a realistic shot of spoiling it for somebody, but I don't I just I don't see an avenue for someone to win as an independent.

Michigan.

history is on your side.

I think it's a big question mark.

I think he could go either way.

I think the potential for him to hurt Democrats more than Republicans is there.

when this race comes about.

He's a hard campaigner.

He's a very practical person.

he knows politics.

It's still a big jump to win as an independent for governor of this state.

We need a right in Detroit is not the same as winning a country, the entire state, bu it's happened in other places.

Look at Jesse Ventura.

Does anybody remember?

It was kind of broken at that point.

Well, we're kind of two.

Yeah.

Many story.

But you still have a strong winne in the budget process actually.

And they're going to figh okay.

The budget process work.

Well they actually got it done.

Well excuse me I rest my case.

Should know I just I think we're kind o doing at this moment what people perhaps dislik most about like political media which is pontificating about this race so far in advance before people even really understood.

Like, I get that people understand who Mike Duggan is, but you go and talk to the average Joe Schmo on the street.

They're not thinking about 26 at this point.

I agree tentatively say, you know as much respect as I have for you, Bill, that he's he's going to win.

I don't even think that there's a gun to win.

I said he has a shot.

He's chance to win.

I definitely don't think way better.

Look, I give him credit.

He did change the storyline from no way in Hades does this guy going to it is a possibility, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

And how did you do that.

Well he has a good story to tell you.

You know, he came in when Detroit was bankrupt.

he's had tremendous success in terms of economic development of Detroit.

He's helped turn some of the neighborhoods around.

Yes, there to Detroit.

And there's always the debate over he didn't take care of my neighborhood, but you will find someone else in another neighborhood and say, yeah, but I got a new park in my neighborhood.

So there's mixed reviews on that.

But I think by virtue o the fact look at the campaign.

Sheffield and Kinloc did not run against Mike Duggan.

They ran trying to put their own agenda out there, and that was because he had done, by most people's calculation, a good job during his three terms.

And so it was no need to run against him.

The big question was who can who can continue the momentum that dug in this step?

Well, one of the big things is he dominates, the polling in the metro Detroit area.

I mean, he's the the head of Benton.

The governor's race is held in the Tri-County area's your governor.

Okay.

But he needs, obviously to get his popularity boosted.

Outstate.

He's doing everything he can to do that.

He's got a long ways to go.

He's got like, ten months.

You know, there's not enough calls, clubs.

Yeah, well, I mean, he's got billboards all over the place or shrillness.

And I will say sometimes I feel like when you see a independent candidate coming up and running, it's like a half serious effort, right.

Like you don't.

And I will say this for Duggan, it is a serious effort.

Right?

You can't drive on any expressway.

Yeah, he's leaning into it.

You find his billboards all over.

He's got several people across stat believe that he can do for them and for the whole state what he did in Detroit.

That's what he's got to do.

I mean, Albert Cobo, remember Cobo Hall?

He was mayor of Detroit, ran for governor.

I remember he went up to Muskegon.

He talked his Cawthorn was there abou his great successes in Detroit.

That's all he talked about.

And everybody walked out saying, what the hell is he going to do for Michigan?

What's he going to do for us in Muskegon?

But, well, Duggan has to avoi being the Albert Cobo of 2020.

The Tigers has been brilliant at bringing people together, and they aren't always peopl that are in line with whatever his philosophical view may be, but he has the knack for being able to do that now.

He has to go out and sell the rest of the state outside of Southeast Michigan.

That I that's what you need in Lansing, who can bring people together and make sure that government works again for the people.

If he can sell them on that, he's got a chance just last minute to go back to that point a moment ago about him being a spoiler for a potential other candidate I think you're already kind of maybe starting to see the writing on the wall there with Democrats.

I can just link to my own inbox, and I feel like every other day I am getting an email from the Democratic Party saying, did you see Mike Duggan didn't refute this against Trump or didn't do this, or has said this or whatever, and I have not seen that level of concern from Republicans.

So I think, you know, the start of next year, that's a real soul searching part for for Democrats to the Republicans are happy to have him in the race.

They but they are you know, there's no question about it.

What about the rest of the candidates that are running for governor?

James is way ahead on the Republican side.

But if he's the nominee, I think he's going to have problems, in the general election in that namely, what attached to Trump.

that and the fact of the guy has had no experience whatsoever in state government.

All he doesn't know diddly squat about all this stuff we've been talking about this morning.

He ran for federal office.

Whats that guys name?

Rick Snyder?

No, I don't want to use the word diddly squat.

Yeah, actually, dude, with all due respect to the former governor, okay?

But I mean, he he was a little wet behind the ears.

In 2010.

And hed tell you that.

In 2010 you could have been a yellow dog and you would have been, elected if you were a public.

Okay.

So they could have run you for governor?

Even I could've won.

Even I could have won.

So I'm just saying, you know, honestly, it's a tough road hole, and I just think James is not up to speed.

Maybe help me figure out this one.

Well, because this is something that I've been trying to kick around.

I don't understand why the party's even allowing him to throw his name back in for a third time when he's lost two state level races before party.

Well, you know, he's dictating, but like, more of just like, you know, somebody grab him off to the side and say, hey man, this is not somebody named Donald Trump.

Did it with him standing in the same room and he still did it.

Right.

And so like I this is where my confusion is, is then why are we still talking about hi if if there if there if the the I don't want to say like the head.

But Donald Trump has obviously a lot of sway in the Republican Party.

And if you even have someone like Donald Trump looking at John James an saying, no, why are you running?

You just got here.

You haven't wo any statewide elections before.

Look, I agree, he's totally ready in the toaster will pop up.

Exactly.

And that's where my concern I'm saying like, well, he's the front runner.

Many people are saying that lik for the Republican nomination, he might be the guy if I'm a Republican.

Does that not make you scared?

Yeah.

And like, yes, I think it makes a lot of Republicans scared.

Look, it's just the fact he is ahea in the polls based on name ID.

I mean, he just got huge name ID compared to Eric Nesbitt.

Who the hell knows who Eri Nesbitt is or even Tom Leonard or Mike Cox is actually second in the most recent poll.

And that makes sense because he served two term as attorney general statewide.

But honestly, James is kind o just running on fumes right now, and I just think it can't last until August fourth, in my opinion.

I think you're right.

I just think there's going to be something has happened.

He's stiffing the party organization.

He doesn't show up for debates.

He's not even campaigning.

Right.

And yet he's showing an arrogance about, get off my back.

I'm running and you can't stop me.

I'm way ahead in the polls.

And I think he's reached the point of no return in terms of saying, oh, yeah, guess what?

I've had second thoughts.

I think I'm going to go back and try and hold the fleet.

You know, it's not going to be the debate between Benson and Gilchris and see if it changes anything, because Benson appears to be way out in front.

And Gilchrist, as we have often said, the fact that your lieutenant governor was probably the kiss of death, of getting into this race in the general, he's really reaching out to the progressive.

But it appears to be almost too little, too late.

But an interesting debate might change something like, I don't think it's going to change.

I think Benson is going to waltz to the nomination.

So how do the D's bring Duncan down or John James down?

first of all, Mr.

Trump is not going to endorse if, if there's good question.

Yeah, he' not going to endorse John James.

And he better be, James better be sure he's not going to endorse somebody else.

well, that's the problem.

Yeah, that's the problem.

That's the problem.

But look, Duggan, it is a totally different situation and how he reacts t what's been going on in Lansing and the mayor call and everything else.

I think that's an important point going forward.

U.S.

Senate race, Mike Rogers way out ahead for the Republican nomination to go the other day.

Yeah.

well, he's running for reelection, but he took himself out of it a couple of months ago.

And on the Democratic side, there is a real battle royale between those three candidates.

I that is the premier.

If you if you want one of these, let's let's go toe to toe, head to head.

That's the game.

Haley Stevens, Mallory McMorrow and Abdul El-Sayed.

And there's not a shrinking violet in that group is doing that.

Yeah I think I think I would snooze through a Benson-Gilchrist debate I think I would tune in for the Senate debate.

I'm going to be honest.

Yeah, I think no, you're right.

I think you're right.

I think you're going to get letters on there.

I think that gets to the underlying point, though, of the issue at hand, which is that, you know, we'r looking at the governor's race.

Yes.

The battles poin like kind of a snoozer at this.

Outside of Duggan, outside of Duggan, you look at the candidate and you're like, I'm uninspired.

You look at the U.S.

Senate candidates and it's like, okay, now that's a debate.

I want to watch.

That's a fight I want to see happen.

And I'm curious then whoever emerges the victor out of, you know, Stevens, McMorrow and El-Sayed, that kind of sets the tone.

Who are we going to have in in the Senate?

And what are we seeing from Democratic voters if if they're the ones who pull through, in terms of the issues and the people that they're willing to back?

I just got an email last week from the LCI.

Yeah, he's ready to come back and do off the record.

he was here about four months ago.

Okay.

You know, he's fearless.

He'll talk anywhere about anything.

And all three are raising big money, and they're fairly close in al the polls that have been taken.

They'll say it runs what's the issu when there are very articulate candidates, who are good talkers and good debaters?

And it would be it would be a fascinating debate.

What's the issue in that debate in that, in that race?

I think I think it gets back to the economy, affordability and our democracy.

I think that's going to be something that they're going to deal with.

I think affordability should be the issue.

I don't know that it's necessarily become the issue among those three.

I'll say i is the most progressive by far.

Okay.

McMorrow is kind of in the middle, and Stevens has kind of positioned herself as the more moderate type of Democrat.

And she's got the establishment in Washington behind her.

I think McMorrow has over-perform compared to Stevens.

I think she's almost hea to head with her in the polls.

And I think El-Sayed is over-performing, too.

I don't think anybody thought he'd be doing as well as he seems to be doin right now when he started out.

So I think I agree wit everything you've been saying.

I think a debate between those, if they can get those three on stage 2 or 3 times, that can be exciting and all of them will go after President Trump and his performance in office.

And what they view is that's not what you want in a U.S.

president.

Whether or not it'll stick, I don't know, but they're certainly going to alter ego after the election saying the other guy's a bad guy, right?

Okay.

You got to give me a reason why I'm the good guy.

Well, they're doing it no and all all the press releases that they put out the attack on pretty much everything.

Yeah.

So I don't think they're going to stop doing this.

And similar to how we're seeing Democrats come out, the Democratic Party, excuse me, come out against, Mike Duggan when saying like, why isn't he doing this?

And it clearly shows an indication that they are concerned about him as a candidate.

You're starting to see the Michigan Republican Party come out against all three of them.

calling them Michigan' Mamdani is a reference to Zohran Mamdani out in New York, which is a frankly astonishing, that it's just a wild it' not a new and it's not exactly.

But so to that point, though, I think you see there the the fear and over that race and what do we had we have filled another half an hour.

Isnt it amazing?

How week in and week out, how do they do it?

Listen.

Hop everybody has a great holiday.

See you on the other side and stay safe.

And thank you.

Good to see all of you okay.

Bye bye.

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