♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP -- >>> ISRAEL EXPANDS ITS GROUND OPERATION TO ALL OVER GAZA, AS THE U.S. MAKES PUBLIC APPEALS TO PROTECT CIVILIAN LIVES.

I ASK FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL JOSH PAUL WHY HE RESIGNED OVER THIS WAR.

>>> THEN, AN ISRAELI AND A PALESTINIAN PEACEMAKER LOOK BEYOND THIS WAR TO A FINAL PEACE.

>>> PLUS, WHY ARE SO MANY PEOPLE DYING IN PUERTO RICO?

>>> AND FINALLY, "ALL THE LIGHT WE CAN NO SEE."

I SPEAK WITH AREA MIA LOW PER TOE ABOUT TAKING NETFLIX BY STORM.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ISRAEL IS EXPANDING ITS GROUND OPERATION TO ALL OVER GAZA, WARNING CIVILIANS TO MOVE AND EVACUATE YET AGAIN.

AFTER THREE DAYS OF INTENSE FIGHTING AND AIR STRIKES, THE U.S. IS STEPPING UP ITS PUBLIC WARNINGS, AS THE DEATH TOLL HAS RISEN TO OVER 15,000, ACCORDING TO THE HAMAS AUTHORITIES IN GAZA.

U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY LLOYD AUSTIN STRESSED ISRAEL'S, QUOTE, MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT CIVILIANS.

HE ALSO SAID IT CAN EFFECT THE BATTLEFIELD.

>> YOU SEE, IN THIS KIND OF A FIGHT, THE CENTER OF GRAVITY IS THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

AND IF YOU DRIVE THEM INTO THE ARMS OF THE ENEMY, YOU REPLACE A TACTICAL VICTORY WITH A STRATEGIC DEFEAT.

>> VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS WEIGHED IN FROM THE COP-28 CLIMATE SUMMITDUBAI.

>> TOO MANY PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED.

FRANKLY, THE IMAGES AND VIDEOS COMING FROM GAZA ARE DEVASTATING.

>> CNN IS ALSO SADDENED TO REPORT THAT AT LEAST NINE MEMBERS OF OUR OWN COLLEAGUE'S FAMILY HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA.

THAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY.

SO, WHAT INFLUENCE DOES THE UNITED STATES HAVE AS ISRAEL SEEKS TO AVENGE THE SLAUGHTER OF 1,200 PEOPLE ON OCTOBER 7th?

AND TO REMOVE HAMAS FROM POWER IN GAZA.

OUR FIRST GUEST TONIGHT, JOSH PAUL, RESIGNED FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT SOON AFTER OCTOBER 7th, IN PROTEST OF WHAT HE SAID WERE UNSCRUTINIZED U.S. ARMS TRANSFERS TO ISRAEL.

IN HIS REZING NATE LETTER, HE SAID THE ISRAELI RESPONSE AND AMERICAN SUPPORT, QUOTE, WILL ONLY LEAD TO MORE AND DEEPER SUFFERING FOR BOTH THE ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

AND IS NOT IN THE LONG-TERM AMERICAN INTEREST.

AND JOSH PAUL IS JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO, I WAS STRUCK BY WHAT THE U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY SAID, I MEAN, THIS IS A VERY BOLD MILITARY ASSESSMENT THAT THIS AMOUNT OF CIVILIAN KILLING IS GOING TO LEAD NOT ONLY TO THIS TRAGEDY THAT THE WORLD IS WITNESSING, BUT A STRATEGIC, HE USED THE WORD DEFEAT.

>> YES.

>> AND SO TELL ME, HOW DO YOU ASSESS WHAT HE SAID?

>> I THINK HE'S RIGHT.

AND I THINK WHAT YOU SEE IS A TENSION BETWEEN THOSE OF US WHO HAVE WORKED IN POLITICAL AND MILITARY FIELDS ON THE GROUND IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND IN THE DEFENSE ESTABLISHMENT IN THE UNIFORMED SERVICES, WHO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NOT GOING TO WORK, THIS IS NOT GOING TO LEAD TO THE RESULT THAT ISRAEL WANTS.

IT IS JUST GOING TO PROLONG THE SUFFERING OF BOTH THE ISRAELI AND THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE FOR ANOTHER GENERATION, AS OPPOSED TO, I THINK, A VERY POLITICAL IDEOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE THAT IS COMING FROM THE POLITICAL LEVEL IN THE U.S. AND IN ISRAEL AND IN THE UK, THAT THINKS THAT THERE IS A WAY TO MAKE THIS WORK.

THERE IS NOT.

AND THE SUFFERING THAT WE'RE SEEING ON THE GROUND REALLY REFLECTS THAT.

I CAN'T RECALL A TIME WHERE I'VE SEEN SUCH A DISCONNECT BETWEEN OUR VALUES AND OUR ACTIONS, OR BETWEEN THE PERSPECTIVES OF OUR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP AND THE REALITIES ON THE GROUND.

>> CAN I ASK YOU WHERE AND HOW YOU DRAW THAT LINE AND MAKE THAT DIFFERENCE?

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME ISRAEL HAS GONE TO WAR AGAINST HAMAS IN GAZA.

AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME THERE HAS BEEN BACKLASH AROUND THE WORD.

WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THAT THIS IS SO DIFFERENT TO HAVE CAUSED YOU TO HAVE RESIGNED?

>> SO, A NUMBER OF FACTORS.

THE FIRST OF WISH IS JUST THE SCOPE AND THE SCALE.

YOU KNOW, HERE WE ARE, TWO MONTHS INTO THIS CONFLICT, AND WE ARE SEEN THREE TIMES MORE CHILDREN DIE, 6,000 IN GAZA, THAN IN TWO YEARS OF RUSSIA'S WAR AGAINST UKRAINE.

WE HAVE SEEN OVER 50 JOURNALISTS KILLED, OVER 100 U.N. AID WORKERS.

OVER 200 MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO BE A DOCTOR IN GAZA?

>> IT'S A TERRIBLE SITUATION FOR THEM.

>> THE SCALE OF THE LOSS HAS BEEN ASTOUNDING.

AND OF COURSE MY ROLE IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT INVOLVED APPROVING MANY OF THESE MAJOR ARMS TRANSFERS THAT ARE GOING TO ISRAEL RIGHT NOW THAT ARE ENABLING THIS KILLING.

>> BUT THIS IS AMERICAN POLICY.

IT'S NOT LIKE THESE ARE ROGUE TRANSFERS THIS IS AMERICAN POLICY, BIPARTISAN, DECADES LONG.

ISRAEL IS AMERICA'S STRONGEST ALLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND AMERICA PROVIDES THE MOST AID IN THE WORLD TO ISRAEL AND OBVIOUSLY TO EGYPT, AS WELL, BUT IN GENERAL, TO ISRAEL.

AGAIN, WHAT IS SO UNSCRUTINIZED ABOUT THIS?

WHAT WAS SO DIFFERENT THAT MADE YOU RESIGN PUBLICLY?

>> WELL, IN ALL THE ARMS TRANSFERS I'VE BEEN A PART OF, INCLUDING TO ISRAEL, THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN SPACE FOR DISCUSSION AND DEBATE.

YOU CAN RAISE CONCERNS ABOUT, HOW ARE THESE ARMS GOING TO BE USED?

DO WE HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT LAWS OF WAR ARE GOING TO BE RESPECTED?

DO WE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT SOME OF THE UNITS THAT THE ARMS MIGHT BE GOING TO AND THEIR TRACK RECORDS?

WHAT WAS DIFFERENT HERE IS THAT THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION.

THERE WAS NO SPACE FOR THAT DISCUSSION.

THERE WAS SIMPLY AN APPROACH OF, THE BARN DOORS ARE OPEN, AND THAT REMAINS THE CASE.

YOU KNOW, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" REPORTED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS THAT AMERICA HAS TRANSFERRED OVER 4,000 BOMBS, GUIDANCE KITS, 45,000 ARTILLERY SHELLS.

SO, THE BARN DOORS REMAIN OPEN, AND WHILE I'M CERTAINLY ENCOURAGED TO HEAR WHAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS SAID, WHAT SECRETARY AUSTIN HAS SAID, FOR AS LONG AS THOSE BARN DOORS REMAIN OPEN, I DON'T KNOW WHY ISRAEL WOULD TAKE THOSE WARNINGS SERIOUSLY.

>> CAN I JUST READ THE STATE DEPARTMENT RESPONSE TO YOUR RESIGNATION?

BASICALLY SAYING THAT IT EXPECTS AND APPRECIATES EMPLOYEES HAVE DIFFERENT BELIEFS.

AND ONE THING THAT IS KIND OF INTERESTING FOR ALL OF US IS TO KNOW THERE'S AN OFFICIAL DISSENT CHANNEL IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO AIR THEIR CONCERNS, AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, HISTORY FROM THE VIETNAM WAR.

THIS IS WHAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT SAYS ABOUT YOU, WITH RESPECT TO THIS SPECIFIC CRITICISM THAT'S BEEN AIRED, WE HAVE MADE VERY CLEAR THAT WE STRONGLY SUPPORT ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF.

WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE PROVIDING THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE THAT THEY NEED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

BUT THE PRESIDENT AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE HAVE SPOKEN TO THIS VERY CLEARLY, THAT WE EXPECT ISRAEL TO ABIDE BY ALL INTERNATIONAL LAW AS THEY DEFEND THEMSELVES.

ISRAEL SAYS IT'S DOING THAT TO THE BEST OF ITS ABILITY.

>> SO, I THINK WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY AS THE LARGER, MORE POWERFUL PARTNER IN THIS RELATIONSHIP, TO GIVE ADVICE, TO GIVE GUIDANCE, TO STEP IN WHEN THINGS ARE NOT GOING RIGHT.

AND WHEN WE SAY THAT WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO, OR, A COMMITMENT TO DEFEND ISRAEL AND SUPPORT ISRAEL'S SECURITY, I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND AND SAY, IS THAT WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING?

IS ISRAEL MORE SECURE AS A RESULT OF OUR ASSISTANCE?

OR HAS OUR MILITARY ASSISTANCE ENABLED ISRAEL TO MOVE AHEAD WITH THE EXPANSION OF SETTLEMENTS IN THE WEST BANK?

TO CONTINUE THE SIEGE OF GAZA?

AND TO TAKE STEPS THAT ULTIMATELY UNDERMINE ITS OWN SECURITY, OTHER THAN LEADING TO A COMPREHENSIVE PEACE.

>> AS YOU KNOW, THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION BELIEVES AND, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT SAYS IT PUBLICLY OR BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, THAT THE ONLY WAY TO GET -- IT'S NOT A SECRET THERE'S NO LOVE LOST BETWEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU BEFORE THIS, OVER THE ATTEMPTED, ESSENTIALLY -- THESE ARE MY WORDS, OVERTHROW OF A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM.

PRESIDENT BIDEN DIDN'T INVITE HIM TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

IT'S A TOTAL RARITY.

HOWEVER, THEY BELIEVE THAT IN ORDER TO AFFECT ISRAELI POLICY, THE LIKES OF WHICH YOU'RE TALKING NOW, TO AFFECT THE POLICY AND MAKE IT MORE TOWARDS THE PEACE PROCESS, THEY HAVE TO EMBRACE ISRAEL, DEFEND ISRAEL, SUPPORT ISRAEL, IN ORDER TO GET THE TRUST OF THE ISRAELI PEOPLE.

SO THAT THEY CAN THEN SPEAK, YOU KNOW, SPEAK CLEARLY TO THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

AND YOU SAW WHAT HAPPENED UNDER THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL DIDN'T SUPPORT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, THEY THOUGHT OBAMA DIDN'T SUPPORT THEM.

>> SO, FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD ASK WHERE THAT EMBRACE GETS THE UNITED STATES.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT IS UNFOLDING NOW, IT IS NOT ONLY A DISASTER IN GAZA, BUT IT IS A FOREIGN POLICY DISASTER FOR THE UNITED STATES ACROSS THE ARAB WORLD AND, FRANKLY, ACROSS THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

WE SEEM LIKE HYPOCRITES WHEN WE CRITICIZE ISRAEL, RATHER, WHEN WE CRITICIZE RUSSIA FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES BUT FAIL TO DO SO WITH ISRAEL.

AND SO, I THINK THAT OUR EMBRACE, WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH THAT EMBRACE, BECAUSE IT IS -- DRAWS US IN, AS WELL.

SECONDLY, OF COURSE, THE ANSWER IS, WE DO HAVE LEVERAGE THAT WE CAN USE WITHIN THAT EMBRACE.

I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT AMERICA SHOULD NOT REMAIN CLOSE WITH ISRAEL, I'M SUGGESTING SIMPLY THAT AS WE ARE THE PROVIDER OF ARMS, AS WE ARE THE PROVIDER OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN TAXPAYER-FUNDED ASSISTANCE EVERY YEAR TO WHAT IS ACTUALLY A WEALTHY COUNTRY, WE DO HAVE A FAIR AMOUNT OF LEVERAGE, AND OF COURSE, WE PROVIDE ISRAEL WITH SECURITY AND DIPLOMATIC BACKUP ACROSS THE REGION THAT HAS ENABLED ITS INTEGRATION.

WE HAVE A LOT OF LEVERAGE HERE TO SET ISRAEL ON A BETTER PATH, AND TO END THIS SENSELESS KILLING IN GAZA.

WE ARE NOT USING IT.

>> HOW DOES WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th IN ISRAEL -- IT WAS BARBARIC, IT WAS SAVAGE.

>> YES.

>> WE'VE HEARD THE STORIES OF RAPE, GANG RAPE, CHILDREN BEING SHOT TO DEATH IN FRONT OF THEIR PARENTS, WE KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH MORE THAN 250 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN TAKEN HOSTAGE, INCLUDING BABIES.

HOW DOES A NATION GET -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RIGHT WORD IS, BEYOND IT, I DON'T KNOW.

WHAT THE RIGHT WORD IS.

HOW DOES IT GET TO FEEL THAT IT'S BEING SUPPORTED AND THAT IT THEN DOESN'T, YOU KNOW, HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT'S GOING ON IN GAZA RIGHT NOW?

THE ELDERS, WHICH IS A GROUP OF FORMER PRESIDENTS, PRIME MINISTERS, AND U.N. OFFICIALS, HAVE ALSO QUESTIONED NOW, THEY'VE JUST PUT OUT A -- A STATEMENT, QUESTIONING ARMS TRANSFERS, AND TALKING ABOUT THE INHUMANITY THAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA THAT'S RISING TO AN INTOLERABLE LEVEL.

>> I THINK WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th WAS AN ABSOLUTE ATROCITY.

1,000 ATROCITIES.

AT THE SAME TIME WE CONDEMN THOSE, WE HAVE TO CONDEMN THE ATROCITIES THAT HAPPEN EVERY DAY TO PALESTINIANS IN WEST BANK.

YOU MENTIONED SEXUAL VIOLENCE, I WAS PART OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS VETTING PROCESS FOR ARMS GOING TO ISRAEL AND A CHARITY CALLED DEFENSE OF CHILDREN INTERNATIONAL PALESTINE DREW OUR ATTENTION AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT TO THE SEXUAL ASSAULT, ACTUALLY, THE RAPE OF A 13-YEAR-OLD BOY THAT OCCURRED IN AN ISRAELI PRISON IN JERUSALEM.

WE EXAMINED THESE ALLEGATIONS, WE BELIEVED THEY WERE CREDIBLE.

WE PUT THEM TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL.

AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THE NEXT DAY?

THE IDF WENT INTO THE DCIP OFFICES AND REMOVED ALL THEIR COMPUTERS AND DECLARED THEM A TERRORIST ENTITY.

I THINK IT IS VITAL THAT ATROCITIES NOT HAPPEN TO ANYONE, NOT SEXUAL VIOLATIONS, NOT ANY KIND OF GROSS VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

WE ARE LOOKING AT A SITUATION WHERE THERE IS SO MUCH DEHUMANIFICATON.

AND THAT IS TRUE OF PEOPLE THAT WERE ATTACKED IN THEIR KIBBUTZ, OR IN THEIR HOME IN GAZA OR IN THE WEST BANK.

WE NEED TO CENTER THE HUMAN BEINGS WHO ARE AT THE CORE, AND WHO ARE SUFFERING SO MUCH IN THIS CONFLICT.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IN ORDER TO HAVE SOME KIND OF PEACEFUL RESOLUTION, SO THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN, THAT HAMAS HAS TO BE REMOVED FROM POWER?

>> HOW DO YOU NEUTRALIZE HAMAS?

THE ANSWER IS, THROUGH A LASTING POLITICAL SETTLEMENT THAT PROVIDES A PALESTINIAN STATE.

NOT A PROMISE OF ONE THAT NEVER GETS TO IT.

YOU NEUTRALIZE HAMAS BY SHOWING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE THAT IF THEY WANT TO SUCCEED, THE ROOT IS THERE FOR THEM TO DO SO, THROUGH A POLITICAL PROCESS, RATHER THAN THROUGH VIOLENT RESISTANCE.

UNTIL WE HAVE THAT POLITICAL PROCESS IN PLACE, YOU CANNOT DEFEAT THE PALESTINIAN RESISTANCE.

>> THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY ON THE WEST BANK IS A DIFFERENT ENTITY TO GAZA, WHICH RULES -- SORRY, TO HAMAS, WHICH RULES GAZA.

YOU HAVE WORKED WITH THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY -- >> YES.

>> SPECIFICALLY ON SECURITY.

>> YES.

>> CAN YOU TELL ME HOW THAT WENT?

BECAUSE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT FOR MANY YEARS, PARTICULARLY NETANYAHU GOVERNMENTS OVER THE LAST MANY YEARS, SAY THEY HAVE NO PARTNER FOR PEACE, THEY HAVE EVEN THREATENED, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'VE CARRIED THIS OUT, NOT TO KEEP PAYING THE PALESTINIAN SECURITY OFFICIALS IN THE WEST BANK SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

>> YES, I WAS PART OF THE U.S. SECURITY COORDINATOR, WHICH IS THE TEAM RESPONSIBLE FOR TRAINING AND BUILDING CAPACITY OF PALESTINIAN SECURITY FORCES IN THE WEST BANK.

THE REASON IT NEVER WORKED IS BECAUSE WE WERE ALWAYS DOING IT ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL.

THE GOAL WAS ALWAYS TO SHOW TO ISRAEL THAT THE PALESTINIAN SECURITY FORCES COULD BE TRUSTED WITH ISRAELI SECURITY, RATHER SO, WHAT THEY END UP DOING, FOR EXAMPLE, IS WHEN THERE'S A PROTEST AGAINST THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES, IT IS THE PALESTINIAN POLICE WHO LINE UP IN BETWEEN, AND WHAT THAT DOES IS, IT UNDERMINES THE LEGITIMACY, AS I WOULD OF ANY COUNTRY, WHEN YOU SEE YOUR SECURITY FORCES NOT PROTECTING YOU, BUT PROTECTING SOMEONE ELSE.

SO, IF WE'RE GOING TO MAKE THIS WORK AGAIN, WE NEED A PROCESS THAT REALLY STARTS WITH STATEHOOD, RATHER THAN LAYING OUT A CONVOLUTED PATH TO GET THERE.

>> OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING OUR NEXT GUEST, AN ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN, WE'LL TALK ABOUT THEIR SHARED VISION FOR THE DAY AFTER, SO TO SPEAK.

DO YOU REALLY THINK THERE'S THAT OPPORTUNITY?

WON'T IT TAKE AN INTENSE INTERNATIONAL COMMITMENT, ENERGY, AND NOT ONLY THAT, ARAB LEADERS TO STEP UP?

>> YES.

>> WHERE HAVE THEY BEEN ON THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE?

WHERE HAVE THEY BEEN?

>> I THINK THERE A COUPLE OF ARAB LEADERS THAT HAVE STOOD UP ON THE ISSUE, BUT YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

TO GET TO STATEHOOD, TO RESOLVE THIS CONFLICT, CANNOT BE LEFT TO THE PARTIES TO RESOLVE, NOR IS IT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN SIMPLY KEEP PROVIDING ARMS, KEEP PROVIDING, YOU KNOW, FUNDING, AND TRUST THAT THEY WILL SORT IT OUT.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK.

THIS DOES REQUIRE A SIGNIFICANT INTERNATIONAL EFFORT.

THE U.S.

CERTAINLY HAS A ROLE IN THAT, AS ISRAEL'S CLOSEST ALLY, BUT SO DOES THE EU, SO DOES THE ARAB WORLD.

AND I THINK WE ALL NEED TO COME TOGETHER TO ADDRESS THIS, OR WE'RE GOING TO BE DOING IT AGAIN IN FIVE YEARS TIME, I FEAR.

>> AND IT LOOKS LIKE, I MEAN, CERTAINLY FROM LISTENING TO IDF STATEMENTS, TO THE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU'S STATEMENTS AND OTHERS, IT LOOKS LIKE THEY'RE IN THIS FOR A LONG HAUL.

I HAD THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARAK ON MY PROGRAM A FEW WEEKS AGO, AND JUST SORT OF, IT SLIPPED OUT, HE KIND OF SAID, YEAH, THIS MAY GO ON FOR ANOTHER YEAR.

>> WELL, OF COURSE PRIME MINISTER NET YA HUE IS IN IT FOR A LONG HAUL, THE MORE THIS GOES ON, THE LONGER HE CAN HOLD OFF CORRUPTION TRIALS HE'S PART OF.

>> THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL ARE BEHIND THIS WAR, THEY WANT -- THEY CANNOT LIVE WITH THAT KIND OF THREAT ANYMORE, AND THEY WANT IT NEUTRALIZED.

BUT THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY BEHIND THEIR GOVERNMENT.

AND EVEN SOME OF HIS VERY EXTREME COALITION PARTNERS HAVE THREATENED TO PULL OUT THEIR SUPPORT.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT WILL HAPPEN -- >> YEAH.

>> BUT THIS IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

FROM WHAT YOU KNOW OF THE POLITICAL SITUATION THERE, WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS IS HEADED?

>> I THINK IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT QUESTION.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN, AS WELL, AND I THINK BEEN REALLY TOUCHED BY THE PROTESTS LED BY THE FAMILIES OF THE ISRAELI HOSTAGES OUTSIDE PRIME MINISTER NET YA HUE'S HOUSE, THAT HAVE BEEN VERY MOVING IN THEIR CALLS, AND MANY OF THOSE FAMILY MEMBERS HAVE SPOKEN UP AND HAVE SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, DON'T PALESTINIAN MOTHERS CRY, AS WELL, WAS A STATEMENT FROM A FATHER OF A GIRL TAKEN HOSTAGE.

THE FUTURE LIES IN THE GOOD HEARTS OF THE PEOPLE IN JERUSALEM, IN RAMALLAH, WHO WILL FIND A WAY TO WORK TOGETHER, BUT TO DO THAT, WE NEED TO INSERT OURSELVES.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THERE IS AN INTERNATIONAL BACKING FOR A SOLUTION THAT DOES NOT, AGAIN, DANGLE OUT THE HOPE OF STATEHOOD, BUT GETS THERE QUICKLY AND THEN MOVES FORWARD TOGETHER.

>> AND YOU RESIGNED, ARE YOU AN OUTLIER?

HAVE YOU HEARD FROM COLLEAGUES?

DO THEY SUPPORT WHAT YOU DID?

>> I HAVE HEARD FROM SO MANY HUNDREDS OF COLLEAGUES AT THIS POINT WHO SUPPORT WHAT I DID, WHO ARE FIGHTING THE FIGHT AS IT WERE WITHIN THE BUREAUCRACY, TRYING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE WITHIN THEIR CAPACITIES, WITHIN THE STATE DEPARTMENT, WITHIN THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, WITHIN THE WHITE HOUSE, ON THE CONGRESSIONAL STAFF, MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, AS WELL.

I HAVE BEEN ACTUALLY REALLY ENCOURAGED BY THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE REACHED OUT TO SAY THEY ARE FINDING WHAT IS HAPPENING BOTH A MORAL DISASTER AND A POLICY DISASTER FOR THE UNITED STATES AND REALLY WANT TO SEE IF THEY CAN CHANGE AND SET THE SHIP ON A BETTER COURSE.

>> SUCH A VITALLY IMPORTANT PART OF THE WORLD, AS WELL.

JOSH PAUL, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND THOSE WITH GOOD HEARTS ALL OVER THE MIDDLE EAST, THE SUBJECT OF OUR NEXT GUESTS.

ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS AND LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD ARE THINKING ABOUT ONE KEY QUESTION.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE WAR ENDS?

WELL, TWO YOUNG WOMEN ON OPPOSITE SIDES OF THE OCCUPATION ARE LEADING THE SEARCH FOR A WAY OUT.

MAY PUNDAK, AN ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER, RUNS THE ORGANIZATION A LAND FOR ALL.

HER FATHER TOOK PART IN THE OSLO PEACE ACCORD NEGOTIATIONS AND SHE NOW HAS A DREAM FOR WHAT SHE CALLS TWO-STATE SOLUTION 2.0.

RANA SALMAN, A PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST, IS CODIRECTOR OF COMBATANTS FOR PEACE.

NOW, RANA AND MAY LIVE OF DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE WALL THAT DIVIDES ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

THEY HAVE NEVER MET, BUT WHEN WE SPOKE RECENTLY, THEY DEMONSTRATED A SHARED VISION OF THEIR SHARED FUTURE.

>> MAY PUNDAK, RANA SALMAN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, RANA, YOUR ORGANIZATION IS CALLED COMBATANTS FOR PEACE, AND YOU'RE WORKING, I THINK, WITH PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY WERE ACTUAL COMBATANTS, AND WHO NOW WANT TO DO THINGS IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

>> YEAH, SO, I WORK WITH COMBATANTS FOR PEACE, WHICH IS ACTUALLY STARTED IN 2006 FROM EX-COMBATANTS.

ISRAELIS WHO SERVED IN THE ISRAELI ARMY AND PALESTINIAN FIGHTERS WHO SPENT TIME IN ISRAELI JAILS FOR MANY YEARS.

AND THEY BOTH RECOGNIZE THAT THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION FOR THE CONFLICT.

THEY BOTH DECIDE THAT -- TO LAY DOWN THEIR WEAPONS AND JOIN THE FORCES TO FIGHT AGAINST OCCUPATION AND OPPRESSION AND ALL OF THE OPPRESSIVE SYSTEM.

AND OUR FIGHTERS, THEY ALREADY HAVE EXPERIENCED VIOLENCE IN THE CONFLICT FOR MANY YEARS, SO, THEY KNOW THIS IS -- THERE IS NO SOLUTION OUT OF IT.

AND BECAUSE OF THIS EXPERIENCE, WE ALSO HAVE BEEN EMBODYING THE NONVIOLENCE PRINCIPLE AS OUR MAIN DNA OF THE ORGANIZATION, AND TEACHING THIS AS OUR METHOD FOR RESISTING THE OCCUPATION FOR MANY YEARS.

>> AND MAY, YOUR FATHER, AS WE SAID, WAS ONE OF THE NEGOTIATORS IN THE OSLO PEACE ACCORDS.

WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM HIM ABOUT OCCUPATION, IE PALESTINIAN RIGHTS, AND WHAT WOULD MAKE ISRAEL SAFE AND SECURE, AS WELL?

>> YEAH, WELL, YOU KNOW, WE SEE NOW THAT THERE REALLY IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION TO THIS CONFLICT.

I MEAN, THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION THAT WILL ENSURE NOT ISRAELI SECURITY AND DEFINITELY NOT PALESTINIAN SECURITY.

AND SO, I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE REALIZATIONS THAT I HOPE THAT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

THERE WILL NOT BE A MILITARY SOLUTION, AND ALSO, AFTER INVESTING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF A HUGE WALL AND PUTTING ALL THE IDF TECHNOLOGY AND THEY STILL HAVEN'T GAINED SECURITY FOR ISRAEL.

SO, I THINK THAT WE LEARN A FEW THINGS FROM THAT.

A, WE WON'T HAVE SECURITY AND SAFETY OR ANY VIABLE FUTURE IF WE DON'T CHOOSE RIGHT NOW A POLITICAL SOLUTION, AND NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT HAS INVESTED IN HAMAS BEING AN ASSET INSTEAD OF INVESTING IN PEACE AND NEGOTIATION.

I HOPE THAT'S NUMBER ONE THAT WE LEARNED.

AND THE OTHER ONE IS THAT, EVEN IF WE SEPARATE AND BUILD A HUGE WALL BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE, IF PALESTINIANS DON'T HAVE SECURITY AND SAFETY AND THEIR INTERESTS MET, OF COURSE, SIDE-BY-SIDE, ISRAELIS HAVING THEIR SAFETY AND SECURITY NEEDS, INTERESTS MET, WE WON'T HAVE SECURITY FOR ANYONE.

WE ARE TIED TOGETHER IN THIS HOMELAND, WHICH IS ONE.

WE ARE TWO PEOPLE, BUT THIS LAND IS VERY, VERY SMALL AND INTERCONNECTED AND INTERDEPENDENT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND AND REALIZE AND THINKING ABOUT MY FATHER, WHAT I'VE LEARNED IS THAT, YOU KNOW, I TREASURE -- I TREASURE MY VALUES, I TREASURE MY JEWISH TRADITION AND HISTORY, BUT WITH THE VALUES OF EQUALITY AND JUSTICE, WITH BEING COMMITTED TO MY PEOPLE AND MY OWN LIBERATION, I KNOW THAT THAT IS DEPENDENT ON MY PARTNER'S LIBERATION AND PEACE AND SECURITY.

I KNOW THAT THOSE TWO HAVE TO GO TOGETHER, AND IF WE DISINTEGRATE THOSE TWO, IF WE PUNCH A HOLE IN THIS BOAT, WE WILL ALL SINK TOGETHER.

>> IT'S INCREDIBLE TO HEAR YOU, AS A JEWISH ISRAELI TALKING ABOUT YOUR OWN LIBERATION, AND HOW DEPENDENT THAT IS ON YOUR NEIGHBORS.

>> I THINK THAT, FIRST OF ALL, I HOPE THE ONE OTHER THING THAT WE'VE LEARNED ON OCTOBER 7th IS THAT THERE IS NO SHRINKING THIS CONFLICT, THERE IS NO MANAGING THIS CONFLICT.

YOU CAN'T NORMALIZE THIS CONFLICT.

AND THE ONLY MAYBE SILVER LINING IS THAT CONFLICT CAN AND SHOULD BE SOLVED, AND I THINK THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS ALSO BEEN PART OF NOT SOLVING THIS CONFLICT, NOT UNDERSTANDING THAT IT HAS TO COME TO AN END, PUTTING PALESTINIANS BEHIND A BIG WALL AND NOT TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION THEIR INTERESTS AS WELL AS, OF COURSE, ISRAELI JEWISH INTERESTS, THAT JUST WON'T CUT IT.

WE HAVE TO THINK TOGETHER.

WE HAVE TO CO-CREATE AND COME TOGETHER TO BUILD THE SUSTAINABLE, VIABLE FUTURE THAT WE ALL DESERVE.

>> SO, RANA, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, PALESTINIAN PERSPECTIVE, WHAT IS YOUR VISION FOR HOW YOU CAN IMPLEMENT WHAT YOU ARE BOTH TALKING ABOUT?

>> I THINK IT'S COMMONLY KNOWN NOW, BASICALLY, THAT A TWO-STATE SOLUTION MIGHT BE PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO IMPLEMENT, BECAUSE OF HOW LONG THE OCCUPATION HAS BEEN GOING THROUGH, AND THE FACTS ON THE GROUND THAT HAVE BEEN CREATED, ESPECIALLY ABOUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS WITHIN THE WEST BANK, THERE ARE OVER 500,000 ISRAELI SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK.

SO, BASICALLY NOW, I THINK WE NEED TO TALK BEYOND THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION, AND DISCUSS NEW STRATEGIES AND COME UP WITH MAYBE AN ALTERNATIVE.

AN ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION THAT WILL GUARANTEE THAT ALL PEOPLE WILL LIVE IN PEACE, SECURITY, DIGNITY, AND STABILITY.

AND ACTUALLY END THE CONFLICT AND THE OCCUPATION.

>> SO, I KNOW THAT MAY HAS TALKED ABOUT KIND OF A CONFEDERATION.

WHAT DOES A CONFEDERATION MEAN?

>> SO, I THINK MAYBE THE BEST -- IF WE TRY TO IMAGINE THE IMPOSSIBLE, WHICH I KNOW IS REALLY DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE RIGHT NOW, BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO IMAGINE A DIFFERENT FUTURE.

I WOULD GO TO THE EUROPEAN UNION, I MEAN, WOULD YOU EVER IMAGINE FRANCE AND GERMANY BEING, YOU KNOW, WITH AN OPEN BORDER?

I DON'T THINK ANYONE 80 YEARS AGO WOULD BE ABLE TO IMAGINE THAT.

WHAT WE START BY SAYING, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TWO PEOPLE, BUT WE ALL HAVE A VERY, VERY STRONG COMMITMENT AND SENTIMENT TO THIS HOMELAND.

THAT'S THE BEGINNING.

SO, WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS WHAT WE CALL TWO-STATE, ONE HOMELAND.

SO, YES, TWO INDEPENDENT SOVEREIGN STATES, BUT MUTUAL RECOGNITION AND A MUTUAL INFRASTRUCTURE IN A WAY SIMILAR TO THE EU, WITH THEIR HEAVY -- A LITTLE DISTRACTED BY THE BOMBING.

>> ARE YOU ALL RIGHT?

>> YEAH, YEAH, WE'RE SAFE AND OKAY.

JUST -- IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, INTENSE DAYS AND WE'RE SO LUCKY TO BE HERE AND SAFE RIGHT NOW.

AS OPPOSED TO OTHER PEOPLE.

SO, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A SHARED INFRASTRUCTURE, SO MECHANISMS FOR TAKING CARE OF THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO SHARE, LIKE HUMAN RIGHTS, LIKE RESOURCES, LIKE JERUSALEM, LIKE -- EVEN SECURITY.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT SECURITY, WHICH DOES NOT EXIST FOR PALESTINIANS, BUT FOR ISRAELIS, FOR THE PAST 30 YEARS, THERE HAS BEEN A SENSE OF SECURITY.

THAT HAS BEEN IN MANY WAYS THANKS TO VERY TIGHT COLLABORATION BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

NOT ONLY DUE TO THE SEPARATION BARRIERS.

AND SO, I THINK THAT WE NEED TO START LEARNING, IF WE LEARN ABOUT THE WORLD.

AGAIN, THE EU, BUT EVEN NORTHERN IRELAND, MOVING FROM INTENSE VIOLENCE, NOT SO LONG AGO, TO POWER SHARING.

WE ARE TRYING TO LEARN FROM THE LOSE LESSONS, THROUGH THE PARADIGM OF SHARING, AND THROUGH OUR IDEA, TWO STATES, ONE HOMELAND OF A MORE CONFEDERATION MODEL, WE HAVE VERY CREATIVE SOLUTIONS TO DEADLOCKS THAT HAVE PREVENTED US FROM MOVING FORWARD INTO PEACE.

SO, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO CONVEY THIS MESSAGE NOW, THE DAY AFTER IS NOW.

>> SO, RANA, FINALLY, TO YOU, YOU KNOW, I'M TALKING TO TWO YOUNG WOMEN WHO HAVE REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT THIS INTENTLY, WHO BELIEVE THAT EVEN NOW AT THE HEIGHT OF THIS WAR, IT'S TIME TO TALK ABOUT THE FUTURE.

WHAT IS THE CONSTITUENCY FOR PEACE?

WHAT IS THE SORT OF GENERATIONAL DIVIDE AMONGST PALESTINIANS, IN TERMS OF EVEN HAVING HOPE THAT THERE COULD BE SOME KIND OF REASONABLE PEACE SOLUTION?

>> YEAH, I THINK -- I THINK RIGHT NOW, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO TALK AMONG PALESTINIANS ABOUT THE SOLUTION OR, LIKE, TO SEE THE FUTURE, BECAUSE THE WAR IS STILL GRIEVING AND IN PAIN.

SO, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO TALK OR HAVE A VISION FOR THE FUTURE.

IT'S ONGOING FOR NOW 75 YEARS ON.

SO -- UNTIL WE SOLVE THE ROOTS OF THE CONFLICT, THEN THIS WILL KEEP HAPPENING EVERY FEW YEARS.

SO, THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO FIND A SOLUTION RIGHT NOW.

OTHERWISE, WE WILL EXPERIENCE THE SAME EVENTS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, BECAUSE VIOLENCE JUST BEGETS VIOLENCE AND REVENGE BEGETS REVENGE, SO, IT NEEDS TO END NOW.

>> DO YOU ALSO, DO THE PEOPLE WHO YOU TALK TO, THE PALESTINIANS IN YOUR CIRCLE, UNDERSTAND THAT ISRAEL ALSO NEEDS ITS SECURITY AND THAT IT DOES FEEL LIKE IT IS UNDER THREAT?

DO YOU ALL HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE STORY OF THE OTHER IN ORDER TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN FOR THE FUTURE, RANA?

>> YEAH, DEFINITELY.

LIKE, I WORK AT COMBATANTS FOR PEACE, AND WE ARE A JOINT COMMUNITY.

WE'RE AN ALTERNATIVE COMMUNITY.

WE'RE A GROUP OF PALESTINIAN AND ISRAELI ACTIVISTS WORKING TOGETHER AND COEXISTING TOGETHER, BECAUSE, WHAT MAY TALKED ABOUT IS OUR COLLECTIVE LIBERATION.

WE WANT THE ISRAELIS TO BE FREE FROM THE FEAR AND TO HAVE THEIR SENSE OF SECURITY.

BUT AS LONG AS THIS KEEPS HAPPENING, NO PALESTINIAN OR ISRAELI WILL HAVE THE SENSE OF SECURITY AT ALL.

AND DEFINITELY, WE FEEL THE PAIN OF THE OTHER, WE SEE THE OTHER, AND WE WORK TOGETHER, OUR LIVES ARE INTERTWINED, SO -- DEFINITELY LIKE THE PEOPLE ARE -- NO EACH OTHER, LIKE, THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS ACTUALLY WORK INSIDE ISRAEL, BUT SINCE THE WAR, THEY HAVE BEEN DEPRIVED TO CONTINUE THEIR WORK, SO, THERE IS ALREADY, LIKE, SOME MIXING WITHIN ISRAEL, SO, PEOPLE ALREADY HAVE BEEN LIVING TOGETHER IN A WAY, BUT THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE SYSTEM ITSELF, THE OPPRESSIVE SYSTEM, AND THE DISCRIMINATION THAT IS HAPPENING BETWEEN PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS.

>> IT'S REALLY AMAZING TO HEAR FROM YOU BOTH.

IT REALLY IS INCREDIBLE TO HEAR YOUR OPTIMISM AND YOUR REALISM.

RANA SALMAN AND MAY PUNDAK, THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING WITH US.

OUR RECENT CONVERSATION WITH TWO WOMEN SEARCHING FOR A SOLUTION.

>>> AND NOW, TO A GROWING PROBLEM IN AMERICA'S BACKYARD.

PUERTO RICO IS IN THE MIDST OF A HEALTH CARE CRISIS, AFTER A SERIES OF NATCH RAM DISASTERS HIT ITS RAPIDLY AGING POPULATION.

"THE WASHINGTON POST" WRITES, MORE PEOPLE ARE DYING IN PUERTO RICO AS ITS HEALTH CARE SYSTEM CRUMBLES.

AND SHE'S TELLING HARI SREENIVASAN HOW WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE COULD BE A SIGNAL OF WHAT'S TO COME IN THE U.S. >> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, ARELIS.

YOU AND A GROUP OF FOLKS AT "THE WASHINGTON POST" LOOKED AT THE RATE OF DEATH IN PUERTO RICO OVER THE LAST YEAR.

WHAT DID YOU FIND?

>> WE FOUND THERE WAS AN EXCESS IN MORTALITY, NOT DISSIMILAR TO WHAT WE SAW AFTER HURRICANE MARIA IN 2017.

BUT IN THIS CASE, THERE WASN'T A HURRICANE TO EXPLAIN WHAT WAS GOING ON.

WE FIGURED THAT ABOUT 3,300 PEOPLE, MORE THAN IS EXPECTED, BASED ON AVERAGE RATES, ANNUAL RATES, DIED IN 2022.

PART OF IT WAS COVID, BUT THERE WERE A LOT -- IT WENT BEYOND THAT.

THERE WERE A LOT OF REASONS FOR WHY PEOPLE WERE DYING ON THE ISLAND.

>> LET'S START TO UNPACK THAT.

3,300 PEOPLE IS A LOT, ABOVE THE AVERAGE YOU WOULD EXPECT.

WAS IT ANY SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT WERE IMPACTED MORE, THE YOUNG OR THE OLD OR THE MALE OR THE FEMALE?

>> YES, PUERTO RICO ACTUALLY HAS BEEN AGING QUITE RAPIDLY IN RECENT YEARS, AND THAT'S AGING BY COMPRESSION, AS SOCIAL SCIENTISTS WILL TELL YOU, MEANING THAT THERE'S BEEN A MIGRATION OF YOUNG WORKING-AGE PEOPLE FROM THE ISLAND, SO, WHAT YOU HAVE IS A POPULATION THAT'S SIGNIFICANTLY OLDER, THAT IS MORE PRONE TO CHRONIC ILLNESS, AND WHO HAVE, IN SOME CASES, A LOT MORE DIFFICULTY REACHING THE HEALTH CARE RESOURCES THAT MIGHT HELP THEM TO MANAGE THOSE DISEASES.

>> OKAY, SO, DOES THAT EXPLAIN IT ALL?

IF YOUNG PEOPLE LEAVE, THE OLD PEOPLE ARE LEFT BEHIND, THEY CAN'T GET TO THE AMBULANCES OR THE HOSPITALS FAST ENOUGH, IS -- WHAT ELSE IS HAPPENING?

>> NO, NO, THE CHRONIC ILLNESS, THEY ARE LARGELY PREVENTABLE DISEASES, THESE ARE THINGS THAT POINT TO AN OVERALL COLLAPSE OR COLLAPSING WITHIN THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM AND UNABLE TO DELIVER CARE TO PATIENTS IN A WAY THAT IS ADEQUATE THAT HELPS THEM MANAGE THEIR CHRONIC ILLNESSES.

I MEAN, WE LOOK AT THE OVER 65 POPULATION, BUT WE ARE ALSO TALKING ABOUT FOLKS THAT ARE 50 AND OLDER THAT ARE HAVING A LOT OF DIFFICULTY.

THE OTHER REASON THAT THIS IS HAPPENING IN PUERTO RICO IS, YOU HAVE MANY, MANY DOCTORS THAT ARE FLEEING PUERTO RICO, GOING TO THE MAINLAND UNITED STATES IN SEARCH OF OTHER OPPORTUNITIES.

>> WHY ARE HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS LEAVING PUERTO RICO?

>> THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO STAY.

THE -- THE SCHEME OF INSURANCE AND THE REIMBURSEMENTS THAT THEY GET FROM GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE JUST SIMPLY DOESN'T PAY THE BILLS.

FOR DOCTORS.

AND THEY ARE ALSO OVERWORKED.

THERE ARE FEW NUMBER OF SPECIALISTS THAT ARE THERE TO TREAT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AND THEY ARE UNABLE TO KEEP UP WITH.

AND THERE ARE SOME DOCTORS WHO TOLD ME DURING THE SERIES OF REPORTING THAT, YOU KNOW, IT JUST DIDN'T FEEL -- IT GOT THEM DEPRESSED TO KNOW THAT THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THAT THEY COULDN'T REACH WHO NEEDED THEM AND THEY WERE UNABLE TO DELIVER CARE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO ROLL THROUGH LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE.

IT'S JUST NOT A SITUATION THAT'S SUSTAINABLE FOR MEDICAL DOCTORS.

>> SO, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THESE BIG SHIFTS HERE.

IF YOU LOSE THE YOUNGER POPULATION AND YOU START TO LOSE DOCTORS, WHAT'S LEFT?

I MEAN, DESCRIBE THE KIND OF HEALTH CARE INFRASTRUCTURE, YOU HAVE THESE SAD SORT OF STORIES.

TELL ME ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU SPOKE TO AND HOW THEY ARE EMBLEMATIC OF THE PROBLEM.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WHAT YOU HAVE LEFT IS A CONSIDERABLY YOUNG AND OLD POPULATION, BOTH OF WHOM ARE SEVERELY VULNERABLE TO SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT PUERTO RICO FACES WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, FOR EXAMPLE.

YOU HAVE A TRAUMATIZED POPULATION, FOR EXAMPLE, A MAN I MET IN A CENTRAL MOUNTAIN TOWN, PRETTY REMOTE, THIS IS A GUY WHO HAD A -- A STROKE AND NO ONE FOUND HIM, HE LIVED ALONE IN THIS REMOTE HOME IN THE MOUNTAINS, NOT SUPER FAR FROM HIS FAMILY, BUT FAR ENOUGH WHERE NO ONE FOUND HIM FOR THREE, FOUR DAYS AND HE WAS BLEEDING OUT OF HIS HEAD FOR AWHILE.

I WENT TO VISIT HIM WITH WHAT THEY CALL A HEALTH PROMOTER, SOMEONE IN THE COMMUNITY WHO GOES FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE, TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT THE PARTICULAR HEALTH NEEDS ARE, AND THIS IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO HADN'T HAD HIS PRESCRIPTIONS RENEWED, WHO WAS STRUGGLING WITH ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION AND SLEEPLESSNESS, THIS IS -- THIS IS A STATE OF SO MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT I MET IN PUERTO RICO THIS LAST TRIP.

>> AND THEN, YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT JUST, YOU KNOW, CALLING 911 ISN'T REALLY A SUREFIRE WAY TO GET CARE.

>> NO, THE MAIN CHARACTER IN OUR STORY IS A WOMAN AND HER FAMILY WHO ALSO LIVE IN A FAIRLY REMOTE AREA OF PUERTO RICO.

THE TOPOGRAPHY IS CHALLENGING.

PUERTO RICO IS NOT EASY.

BUT WHEN YOU CALL 911, YOU EXPECT A CERTAIN LEVEL OF SERVICE, AND IN THIS CASE, THE AMBULANCE THAT WAS DISPATCHED, A PRIVATE AMBULANCE, DID NOT GET THERE IN TIME.

THEY GOT LOST, ASKED FOR DIRECTIONS, BUT COULDN'T REACH HER, WHO, HERSELF, WAS SUFFERING FROM BREATHING, SHE WAS STRUGGLING TO BREATHE AND HAVING ALL KINDS OF ISSUES AND SHE PASSED AWAY WITH HER FAMILY.

>> SO, WHAT IS THE HEALTH DPT DEPARTMENT, OR THE HEALTH SYSTEM IN PUERTO RICO TRYING TO DO TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THESE CHALLENGES?

PUERTO RICO'S HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS PRETTY COMPLICATED.

>> IT DEPENDS A LOT ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND THAT'S WHERE, IF YOU ASK, YOU KNOW, STATE OFFICIALS, PEOPLE WITH THE GOVERNMENT, THEY'LL IMMEDIATELY SORT OF ORIENT THEIR ANSWER TO WHY THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING TO, YOU KNOW, THE COLONIAL STATUS OF PUERTO RICO.

BUT WE KNOW THAT'S ONLY PART OF THE STORY.

SOME OF IT HAS TO DO WITH MEDICAID REIMBURSEMENTS TO WHAT DOCTORS IN THE UNITED STATES RECEIVE FOR SIMILAR LAIR, IF NOT THE SAME CARE.

YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE THE GOVERNMENT IS RIGHT NOW NOT DOING MUCH TO STOP THE LEADING OF YOUNG DOCTORS, PEOPLE THAT ARE STUDYING IN THE UNIVERSITIES THERE IN PUERTO RICO WHO ARE EAGER TO WORK ON THE ISLAND AND SERVE THEIR PEOPLE, BUT ARE UNABLE TO, BECAUSE THEY HAVE STUDENT LOANS AND, YOU KNOW, SIMPLY CANNOT MAKE IT HAPPEN.

THEN YOU HAVE THE COMPLICATED SORT OF INTERCHANGE OF INSURANCE COMPANIES IN PUERTO RICO AND JUST VERY BASICALLY AT A GROUND LEVEL, IF YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO IS LOOKING FOR A SPECIFIC SPECIALIST, DERMATOLOGIST, A RULE TOLL GIST, A NEUROLOGIST, YOU ARE LOOKING AT FOUR TO SIX MONTHS TO SCHEDULE AN APPOINTMENT.

AND IF YOU HAVE A CONDITION THAT IS EXACERBATED BY THE WAIT, YOU HAVE IN BIG TROUBLE.

>> YOU HAVE SPEND YEARS REPORTING FROM PUERTO RICO, AND I WONDER HOW MUCH OF AN IMPACT WAS HURRICANE MARIA?

I MEAN, TO ME, SOME OF THIS, CERTAINLY THE OUTMIGRATION, SEEMS TO HAVE ACCELERATED AFTER HURRICANE MARIA.

>> I THINK AT THE BEGINNING, WE SORT OF EXPECTED TO SOME DEGREE THAT THE TRAUMA AND THE -- THE AFTERSHOCKS, IF YOU WILL, OF HURRICANE MARIA WERE GOING TO BE SEVERE, BUT WE ARE SEEING THE MANIFESTATION NOW.

IT WASN'T JUST HURRICANE MARIA.

SHE WAS A BIG HIT FOR PUERTO RICO, BUT YOU ALSO HAD A SERIES OF EARTHQUAKES THAT HAPPENED, HURRICANE FIONA, YOU HAD THE OUSTER OF THE GOVER NOR IN, I THINK, 2019, IF I RECALL CORRECTLY, THROUGH PROTESTS.

SO, IT'S JUST BEEN ONE THING AFTER ANOTHER.

YOU HAVE AN EXHAUSTED POPULATION.

>> SO, IS THIS A LONGER TALE OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE DEMOGRAPHY SHIFTS SO MUCH?

WOULD THOSE 3,300 EXCESS DEATHS NOT HAVE HAPPENED IF, FOR EXAMPLE, 120,000 YOUNG PEOPLE STAYED IN PUERTO RICO INSTEAD OF LEFT?

>> THAT'S POSSIBLE.

BUT I ALSO THINK THERE'S DEFICIENCIES IN MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT, THERE ARE DEFICIENCIES IN THE SYSTEM OVERALL.

YES, IT WOULD HAVE HELPED IF THOSE FOLKS WOULD HAVE STAYED, IF THOSE ELDERLY FOLKS WHO CONSISTENTLY APPEAR ON THE NEWS OF HAVING DIED BY THEMSELVES INSIDE THEIR HOMES, IF THERE WERE PEOPLE THERE NEARBY TO BE, YOU KNOW, WATCHING OR TAKING CARE OF THESE FOLKS, MAYBE THAT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED, BUT THIS IS A LONGER TALE AND I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING AS AMERICANS, ON THIS RESIDENCE ON THE MAINLAND, IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO.

THESE ARE FRIENDS THAT ARE ALSO APPEARING IN OTHER PARTS OF THE MAINLAND U.S. WITH THE SORT OF FLIGHT OF DOCTORS, INCREASING NUMBER OF DOCTORS WITH THE ISSUES WITH INSURANCE COMPANIES WHO MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO ACCESS CARE IN SOME CASES, SO IN MANY CASES, I THINK PUERTO RICO IS A CANARY IN A COAL MINE, IF YOU WILL, OF WHAT COULD HAPPEN WHEN WE'RE NOT WATCHING AND ALLOW THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM TO DETERIORATE IN FRONT OF US.

>> YOU'VE GOT SO MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS OF DEFICIENCY, WHETHER IT'S HUMAN BEINGS THAT ARE THERE TO BE DOCTORS AND NURSES AND FILL THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WAY, OR, YOU KNOW, TOPOGRAPHY THAT YOU CAN'T EASILY CHANGE, I MEAN, WHAT CAN YOU DO?

>> WELL, I'M NOT A POLICYMAKER, SO, I DON'T PRETEND TO HAVE ALL OF THE SOLUTIONS, BUT I DO THINK THERE ARE CERTAIN PRINCIPLES THAT ARE AT PLAY HERE.

ONE, BUILDING SINNIVES FOR PEOPLE TO STAY.

IF YOU ARE STUDYING AT GRUFRT OF PUERTO RICO, A PREMIER INSTITUTION FOR MEDICAL SCIENCE, THERE SHOULD BE PERHAPS INCENTIVES TO KEEP THOSE FOLKS ON THE ISLAND AND TO HAVE THEM PARTICIPATE IN THE SYSTEM FOR A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME, IF THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, EDUCATIONS ARE SUBSIDIZED.

OR MAYBE IT'S CHANGING THE DELIVERY SYSTEM.

RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE LIVE IN, YOU KNOW, THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES, MAYBE THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM NEEDS TO GO TO THEM INSTEAD OF EXPECTING PEOPLE TO COME TO, YOU KNOW, URBAN CENTERS THAT ARE SOMETIMES DIFFICULT FOR THEM, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE ELDERLY, TO RECEIVE CARE.

THERE ARE A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT THINGS THAT WE THINK.

MENTAL HEALTH CARE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO LOOK A LITTLE BIT MORE CLOSELY IN WHAT WAYS IT CAN HELP SUPPORT FEDERALLY QUALIFIED HEALTH CLINICS THAT ARE IN SOME OF THESE COMMUNITIES TO BE ABLE TO REACH THOSE.

OVERALL, I THINK THERE IS A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING, BOTH AT THE STATE AND FEDERAL LEVEL OF WHAT INDIVIDUAL COMMUNITIES ACTUALLY NEED, AND THAT WAS CLEAR FROM THE VERY BEGINNING THAT WE DON'T -- THEY DON'T KNOW THESE COMMUNITIES.

THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE THE NEEDS ARE, AND ARE ABLE -- UNABLE TO DELIVERER IN THAT WAY.

>> YOU SAID THAT THERE WAS ON AVERAGE ONE CARDIOLOGIST FOR EVERY 17,500 PEOPLE, BECAUSE THERE'S ONLY SOME 95 CARDIOLOGISTS ON THE ISLAND.

ARE THESE PREVENTABLE DEATHS THEN, IF WE BASICALLY HAD MORE CARDIOLOGISTS THAT COULD PROVIDE CARE?

>> WELL, AGAIN, I'M NOT A MEDICAL DOCTOR, BUT I THINK SOME OF THE EVIDENCE THAT WE'VE SEEN, THAT POINTS TO THAT SOME OF THESE DEATHS ABSOLUTELY COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED WITH MORE PREVENTATIVE CARE AND CONSISTENT FOLLOWUP CARE.

>> YOU ALSO SPENT SOME TIME IN A SMALL TOWN IN THE KIND OF RURAL HIGHLANDS -- CENTRAL HIGHLANDS, AND I WONDER -- THEY HAD A 50% INCREASE IN DEATH COMPARED TO THE YEARS PRIOR.

SO, IS THERE SOMETHING SPECIFIC ABOUT THIS TOWN, THIS LOCATION, IS IT A RURAL PROBLEM?

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> IT'S A RURAL PROBLEM, IT'S A PLACE THAT'S LOST A LOT OF POPULATION, AND SO, WHO ARE LEFT ARE RETIRED AND OLDER INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE LIVING ALONE.

IT'S ALSO A PLACE WITH A REALLY CHALLENGING SORT OF FAR-FLUNG BARIO.

THE NEIGHBORHOODS ARE AT THE TOPS OF MOUNTAINS THAT SURROUND THE VALLEY WHERE THE CENTRAL SQUARE IS.

THEY ALSO LOST ABOUT HALF OF THEIR DOCTORS, SO, PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIANS THAT WERE IN TOWN.

AND WHILE THIS TOWN IS NOT SUPER FAR FROM SAN JUAN, URBAN CENTERS IN PUERTO RICO, IT'S FAR ENOUGH WHERE FOLKS WHO DEPENDED ON BUS SERVICE THAT IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE CAN'T GET TO THESE PLACES UNLESS A FAMILY MEMBER TAKES THEM OR THEY FIND A RIDE FOR SOME OTHER MEANS, AND IN PUERTO RICO, CULTURALLY, TO BURDEN SOMEONE ELSE WITH, YOU KNOW, GIVING THIS FAVOR OF GIVING YOU A RIDE, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT'S FROWNED UPON, PARTICULARLY FROM AN OLDER GENERATION.

>> YOU ALSO SPENT SOME TIME WITH THESE HEALTH BRIGADES THAT WERE OUT THERE TRYING TO GET TO THESE PLACES.

WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

ARE THEY FRUSTRATED WITH WHAT THEY'RE SEEING?

>> THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY FRUSTRATED.

AND THEY'RE HEARTBROKEN BY SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THEY SEE.

THERE'S A LOT OF POCKETS OF COMMUNITIES ALL ACROSS PUERTO RICO, AND WHEN THE HEALTH PROMOTERS, THESE BRIGADES GO INTO THE COMMUNITIES, THEY FIND ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS.

THEY'RE HAVING TO, IN THAT MOMENT, PROVIDE DENTAL CARE, PROVIDE, YOU KNOW, TAKE THEIR BLOOD PRESSURE.

AND ONE OF THESE SITUATIONS, WE WERE IN THE CENTRAL MOUNTAINS, WHERE A WOMAN, THEY TOOK HER BLOOD PRESSURE, THE DOCTOR WHO WAS WITH US, AND HER BLOOD PRESSURE WAS ENOUGH TO HAVE PUT HER IN A COMA AND SHE HAD NO IDEA.

SHE WAS JUST SO STRESSED.

THIS IS ALSO A PLACE THAT HAD BEEN HIT HARD BY MARIA.

DIDN'T HAVE ADEQUATE ACCESS TO WATER AND WHERE THE ELECTRICITY WENT OUT CONSISTENTLY.

>> GIVEN THE STATUS OF WHERE HEALTH CARE IS IN PUERTO RICO TODAY, ARE WE LIKELY TO SEE AN EXCESS NUMBER OF DEATHS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN?

>> IT'S HARD FOR ME TO PREDICT THE FUTURE, BUT THE TRENDS THAT WE SEE IN THE DATA SUGGEST THAT 2023 WILL ALSO BE A RECORD YEAR OF DEATHS IN PUERTO RICO, AND IT'S UNCLEAR TO ME DEMOGRAPHICALLY WHERE THAT WILL TAKE US IN 2024 OR 2025.

BUT CERTAINLY ISN'T STOPPING NOW, AND, YOU KNOW, MAYBE -- THE GOVERNMENT AUTHORITIES ON THE ISLAND, HEALTH OFFICIALS ARE LOOKING AT COVID AND TRYING TO MITIGATE THE DESTRUCTIVE FORCE THAT COVID HAS BEEN IN PUERTO RICO, 2021 FORWARD, PRETTY MUCH, SO, MAYBE WITH COVID WE'LL SEE THESE NUMBERS NORMALIZE, BUT KEEP IN MIND THAT BEFORE, YOU KNOW, HURRICANE MARIA, THESE NUMBERS WERE PRETTY MUCH ON PAR OR LOWER THAN THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT'S WORKING?

>> THERE ARE SOME MODELS THAT ARE IN PLACE THAT ARE SPECIFIC TO REMOTE COMMUNITIES.

>> THERE'S A GROUP, THEY'RE A BRIGADE, AGAIN, OF HEALTH PROMOTERS, MOSTLY FROM THE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY SERVE, THAT HAVE KEPT, YOU KNOW, GOING CENSUSES AND THEY KNOW WHERE PEOPLE LIVE AND THEY ARE ABLE TO BRING THAT.

BUT THEY DEPEND ON GENEROSITY TO BE ABLE TO SERVE THESE COMMUNITIES, AND THAT ISN'T EXACTLY CONSISTENT.

THERE ARE MODELS, QUALIFIED HEALTH CLINICS HELP WITH BRIDGING SOME OF THOSE GAPS.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO MAJOR HEALTH ISSUES WHERE YOU NEED HOSPITALIZATION, THAT'S WHERE THE CHALLENGE IS, AND YOU HAVE HOSPITALS THAT ARE RUNNING INTO BANKRUPTCY AND ALL KINDS OF ISSUES IN PUERTO RICO, CLOSING IN COMMUNITIES THAT DESPERATELY NEED THEM.

>> SO, HOW DOES ALL THIS FACTOR INTO KIND OF THE SOVEREIGNTY VERSUS STATEHOOD PERPETUAL CONVERSATION THAT SURROUNDS PUERTO RICO?

>> WELL, IT'S A DIFFICULT QUESTION.

AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, WHEN YOU ASK THE STATE, WHEN YOU ASK PUERTO RICO GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, THEY'LL TELL YOU, THIS IS ALL A PROBLEM THAT IS COMING FROM ITS POLITICAL STATUS.

THEY BLAME IT ON THE JONES ACT, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, THIS PROHIBITION, ESSENTIALLY, OF SHIPS WITH GOODS COMING DIRECTLY TO PUERTO RICO.

THEY HAVE TO STOP IN JACKSONVILLE, UNLOAD, PUT THE PER MERCHANDISE ON A SHIP WITH A U.S.

FLAG ON IT.

PUERTO RICO IMPORTS A HUGE AMOUNT OF ITS FOOD, GROCERY FOOD, INCLUDING FRUITS AND INDIVIDUAL TABLES, THAT ARE PRETTY EXPENSIVE WHEN THEY REACH PUERTO RICO.

THEY WOULD TELL YOU THAT THE JONES ACT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

MEDICAID REIMBURSEMENT INEQUALITY, THE BULK SUM THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GIVES TO PUERTO RICO.

A DOCTOR PRACTICING IN PUERTO RICO GETS ABOUT HALF OF THE REIMBURSEMENT, SAY, FOR READING AN X-RAY OR, WHATEVER TREATMENT, GIFTS ABOUT HALF THE REIMBURSEMENT FROM MEDICAID AND MEDICARE THAT A DOCTOR IN THE VIRGIN ISLANDS OR THE UNITED STATES WOULD.

AND THAT IS EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING TO FOLKS ON THE ISLAND.

SO, THERE ARE ASPECTS THAT ARE DIRECTLY TYPED TO POLITICAL STATUS, BUT IT IS DEFINITELY NOT THE WHOLE STORY.

>> WHAT CAN WE TAKE FROM WHAT'S HAPPENING IN PUERTO RICO AND APPLY IT TO WHAT COULD HAPPEN IN THE MAINLAND?

>> PUERTO RICO ONCE HAD A HOSPITAL AND HEALTH CARE SYSTEM THAT WAS THE ENVY OF THE CARIBBEAN.

IT WAS A PUBLIC SYSTEM, AND THE 1990s, THE GOVERNOR MOVED TO PRIVATIZE THAT SYSTEM AND SELL OFF SOME OF THOSE ASSETS, IN AN ATTEMPT TO SORT OF REIN IN SOME OF THE BALLOONING COSTS.

INSTEAD OF IT BEING A COST-SAVING MEASURE, IT TURNED INTO A HUGE ISSUE AND PLUMMETED THE -- THE GOVERNMENT INTO DEBT, IN THE DEBT THEY'RE STILL TRYING TO GET OUT FROM UNDER.

I'VE SEEN REPORTS OUT OF CALIFORNIA THAT SOUND REALLY SIMILAR TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN PUERTO RICO, THE DECREASING NUMBERS OF SPECIALISTS AND DOCTORS WHO ARE AVAILABLE TO PROVIDE APPOINTMENTS IN A TIMELY MANNER, TO BE ABLE TO CATCH THINGS BEFORE THEY BECOME VERY SERIOUS PROBLEMS.

THERE ARE ISSUES WITH PRIVATE INSURERS THAT ARE, AGAIN, MAKING IT VERY DIFFICULT IN THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN DOCTOR AND PATIENT.

THEY'RE MUCH MORE SEVERE IN PUERTO RICO THAN WHAT I'VE SEEN IN THE UNITED STATES.

BUT ALSO JUST THE MODEL TOWARDS HAVING PEOPLE COME TO HEALTH CARE INSTEAD OF HEALTH CARE GOING TO THEM, I THINK, IS SOMETHING THAT IS A MAJOR ISSUE IN PUERTO RICO.

IT MIGHT BE UNIQUE TO PUERTO RICO, BUT I DO THINK THERE ARE PARTS OF THIS COUNTRY WHICH ARE CHALLENGING TOP GRAPHICALLY, WHERE THE POPULATION IS WHERE WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT ALTERNATIVE MODELS FOR HOW WE DELIVER CARE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> HEALTH CARE SUCH A TOPIC ALL OVER THE WORLD.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, EVEN IN A TIME OF WAR, A NEW MINI SERIES FROM NETFLIX REMINDS US THAT HOPE CAN BE FOUND IN THE DARKNESS.

"ALL THE LIGHT WE CANNOT SEE" TELLS THE STORY OF MARIE LAURE, A BLIND TEENAGER BROADCASTING UPLIFTING AND ALSO STRATEGICALLY CRITICAL RADIO MESSAGES FROM THE RESISTANCE IN OCCUPIED FRANCE DURING WORLD WAR II.

MAHER LEE LAURE IS PLAYED BY ACTOR ARIA MIA LOBERTI, HERSELF BLIND.

HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> NIGHT LASTS FOREVER.

DARKNESS LASTS -- >> DARKNESS LASTS -- >> NOT EVEN FOR ONE SECOND.

WHEN YOU TURN ON THE LIGHT.

I KNOW THAT BROADCASTING CAN GET ME EXECUTED.

BUT I WILL NOT BE SILENCED.

I HOPE YOU WILL TUNE IN AGAIN TOMORROW.

>> IT IS GRIPPING, AND PERHAPS MOST REMARKABLY, THIS IS HER FIRST ACTING ROLE EVER.

ARIA MIA LOBERTI IS JOINING ME NOW FROM LOS ANGELES.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN, AND I JUST WANT YOU TO TELL US HOW YOU WENT FROM NEVER HAVING BEEN, YOU KNOW, A PROFESSIONAL ACTRESS, TO YOUR FIRST EVER AUDITION GETTING YOU THIS PART ALONG WITH MARK RUFFALO, HUGH LAURIE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S SO GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

IT'S BUN WITH 0 BEEN ONE OF THE GREATEST HONORS OF MY LIFE TO DO THIS.

I NEVER IMAGINED I COULD BE AN ACTOR.

I STIFLED IT REALLY DEEP DOWN INSIDE.

I THINK ANYONE FROM ANY MARGINALIZED IDENTITY SOMETIMES CAN INTERNALIZE WHEN THE WORLD TELLS YOU THAT YOU DON'T MATTER, AND AS A YOUNG WOMAN AND AS SOMEONE WHO IS LOW VISION, I DEFINITELY INTERNALIZED THAT, AND I NEVER REALLY PURSUED MY DREAM.

I BECAME AN ACADEMIC.

AND I DID REALLY ENJOY THAT, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW SOMETHING FELT WRONG.

AND SOMEONE SENT ME THE AUDITION AND I JUST DID A TAPE IN MY BEDROOM IN COLLEGE AND IT WAS NOT VERY GOOD, PROBABLY, BUT THEN PEOPLE SAW IT AND NOW IT'S ON THE INTERNET AND PEOPLE -- IT'S HERE.

AND WHAT'S PROFOUND ABOUT A PART LIKE THIS, PEOPLE WORKING AT THE VERY TOP OF THEIR FIELD LIKE MARK WHO YOU MENTIONED, OUR AMAZING DIRECTOR, YOU KNOW, I WAS LEARNING MY CRAFT FROM THE GROUND UP EVERY SINGLE DAY, BUT THEY WERE THERE FOR ME.

THE CHALLENGE WAS NOT BEING SOMEONE IN THE INDUSTRY WHO IS LOW VISION.

ACTUALLY, THAT ISN'T A CHALLENGE AT ALL AND I DON'T KNOW WHY IT'S PERCEIVED THAT IT MIGHT BE.

IT CERTAINLY IS, THOUGH, BUT THAT'S OKAY.

THE REAL CHALLENGE WAS BEING A NEWCOMER AND LEARNING HOW TO CRAFT THIS MAGNIFICENT STORY AND HOW TO CARRY THIS PIECE THAT IS SO NEAR AND DEAR TO SO MANY PEOPLE'S HEARTS.

IT'S REALLY SPECIAL.

>> YEAH, AND WE SHOWED THE CLIP AND IT IS OBVIOUSLY ALWAYS GRIPPING TO SEE THE RESISTANCE, TO SEE HEROES DURING WORLD WAR II, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO DO THEIR BEST TO FIGHT PERSONAL BATTLES AND ALSO FOR, YOU KNOW, THE GREATER FREEDOM.

BUT YOU MENTIONED SHAWN, YOUR DIRECTOR, AND I DO ACTUALLY WANT TO LEAD FROM A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT HE SAID, THAT HE LEARNED FROM YOU ON THE SET, HE SAYS, AS I WAS HELPING HER DEVELOP HER ACTING TECHNIQUE, SHE WAS HELPING ME UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE NATURE OF A LIFE WITHOUT SIGHT, AND HOW DO I REPRESENT THAT HONESTLY?

I NEED TO THINK ABOUT MY WORDS.

TO BE SUPER SPECIFIC IN WHAT I SAID, AND ALSO CONSCIOUS OF HOW I SAID IT.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT -- ABOUT THAT PROCESS.

>> IT -- I THINK FOR BOTH OF US, EVERY SINGLE DAY, WE WENT IN AND LEARNED FROM EACH OTHER.

AND THAT MEANT WE HAD TO BE WILDLY CANDID WITH EACH OTHER.

IT WAS UNLIKE ANYTHING I'VE EVER HAD TO DO, IT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM SITTING IN A LIBRARY READING ANCIENT GREEK, WHICH IS HOW I HAD SPENT MOST OF MY ADULT LIFE PRIOR TO THIS POINT, BUT SHAWN IS VERY MUCH AN INTELLECTUAL, SO, WE CAME AT EACH OTHER WITH THIS REAL COMMON GROUND.

AND I TOLD HIM, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO OFFEND ME IF YOU TELL ME THAT I'M DOING SOMETHING WRONG, BECAUSE I WANT TO BE GREAT.

I THINK I FOUND SOMETHING THAT I LOVED.

I THINK I FOUND THE THING I'M SUPPOSED TO BE DOING.

BUT I WANT TO BE GREAT AT IT.

EVEN MORE SO WANTING TO PORTRAY THIS CHARACTER AND THE STORY WELL, I AM A SORT OF REPRESENTATION THAT HASN'T HAPPENED BEFORE FOR PEOPLE IN MY COMMUNITY.

FOR 100 YEARS OF STORYTELLING, WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT A BLIND PERSON HAS A VACANT EXPRESSION, THEY DON'T LOOK AT THE PERSON THEY'RE TALKING TO, THEY SHUFFLE THEIR FEET, THEY'RE PROBABLY REALLY VAPID, AND NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE, EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE BEEN INGRAINED IN OUR CULTURAL IDENTITY.

WHEN SOMEONE LIKE ME WALKS ON SET AND I DON'T USE A MOBILITY AID AND I LOOK YOU STRAIGHT IN THE EYE AND MY VISION IS VARIABLE, IT'S NOT A COMPLETE VOID OF DARKNESS, EVEN IF MY CHARACTER MIGHT NOT SEE ANYTHING.

IT'S A VERY INTERESTING PLACE TO COME FROM, BECAUSE MEDIA HAS TOLD US OTHERWISE, AND, YOU KNOW, I ADMIRE THE WORK THAT YOU DO AND I ADMIRE THE WORK OF EVERYONE WHO I GOT TO LISTEN TO COMING ON THIS PROGRAM, LIKE, AS I WAS SITTING AND WAITING.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT SOLVING WORLD HUNGER.

WE'RE NOT TACKLING THESE ISSUES, BUT I COULD BRING A VOICE TO SOMETHING AND MAYBE IT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

>> EXACTLY.

I'M SMILING BROADLY, BECAUSE THE LAST TIME WE MET WAS AT UNIVERSITY OF RHODE ISLAND, IT'S YOUR HOME STATE, YOU TALKED ABOUT BEING AN ACADEMIC, YOU HAD YOUR WONDERFUL GUIDE DOG THERE WITH YOU.

>> YEAH.

>> AND YOU CREDIT THE DOG WITH REALLY MAKING YOU FEEL THAT YOU COULD TACKLE SOMETHING LIKE THIS AND DARE TO SEEK THIS KIND OF ROLE.

>> IT'S INCREDIBLE HOW OTHER THAN MY PARENTS, I DIDN'T HAVE ANYBODY SENDING ME THE MESSAGE THAT I DID MATTER.

IT IS INCREDIBLE THAT THE RESPONSIBILITY HAD TO FALL TO AN ANIMAL.

BUT HER ROLE, I ALWAYS HID MY WHITE CANE.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO LEARN THAT SKILL, BUT I NEVER USED IT BECAUSE I WAS BULLIED 0 BADLY FOR IT AND GETTING INGRID MY GUIDE DOG WAS THIS CATALYST TO NOT ONLY BEING SAFE AND INDEPENDENT AND MOVING REALLY FAST AND FREELY THROUGH COLLEGE AT THE TIME, BUT LIKE, DISPLAYING MY CULTURE TO PEOPLE AND MY IDENTITY, AND IT REALLY IS A CULTURE, AND SO, I WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PUT OUT THIS TAPE, AS MUCH AS I DIDN'T THINK ANYTHING WAS GOING TO HAPPEN FROM IT, I WOULD HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO RECORD THE TAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE IF I DIDN'T HAVE THE CONFIDENCE IN MY OWN IDENTITY THAT SHE HELPED ME INSTILL IN MYSELF.

>> AND NOW YOU ARE BRINGING THE IDENTITY OF AN AMAZING RESISTANCE HERO, YOU KNOW, DURING THE WAR, IN OCCUPIED -- WHAT DREW YOU TO THIS STORY, AND WHAT ABOUT IT RESONATES WITH YOU?

>> I THINK ESPECIALLY GOING INTO THIS AS A NONACTOR, THAT IS NOW MY CAREER, I APPROACHED IT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE BOOK, THAT'S WHAT I HAD.

AND I HAD CONNECTED TO THE BOOK WHEN MY MOM FIRST READ IT IN 2014.

SHE ACTUALLY GOT THE RECOMMENDATION FROM A DOCTOR WHO TOLD HER THAT IT MIGHT GIVE HER A LOT OF HOPE, AND I READ IT AFTER HER AND I GOT MAYBE 75% OF THE WAY THROUGH AND I COULDN'T GET ANY FURTHER, BECAUSE MY HEART BROKE.

AND I THINK IT'S SO TRUE TO LIFE, RIGHT, THAT SOMEONE MIGHT NOT GET A HAPPY ENDING, THAT IT MIGHT NOT WORK OUT OKAY, AND I WANTED TO END BEFORE IT JUMPED AHEAD TO SEE THEIR FUTURE, I WANTED TO END WITH THE END OF WORLD WAR II.

AND I THINK WHAT REALLY SPEAKS TO THIS CHARACTER IS, SHE IS IN EVERY WAY THE OPPOSITE OF THE STEREOTYPES WE EXPECT.

BUT SHE PERSISTS AND SHE FIGHTS, EVEN THOUGH THE NAZIS ARE PERSECUTING PEOPLE LIKE HER, VIOLENTLY.

IT'S GENOCIDE, TOO.

>> IT IS REMARKABLE.

>> AND YET SHE STILL STANDS UP.

YEAH.

>> EVERYBODY NEEDS TO WATCH IT.

>> SHE TRANSFORMS -- >> YEAH, NO, THANK YOU.

>> WE UNFORTUNATELY HAVE GOT TO GO, BUT THAT WAS WONDERFUL.

WE COULD HAVE TALKED FOR A LOT LONGER.

ARIA MIA LOWBERTI, THANK YOU, INDEED.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.