♪ CRYSTAL: HELLO EVERYBODY.

I AM CRYSTAL HAYNES.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON,", CITY CONCILLORS ARE FLOATING THE IDEA OF GUARANTEED BASIC INCOME FOR SOME OF THE POOREST RESIDENTS.

WHAT WITH THE PROGRAM LOOK LIKE AND HOW WILL THE CITY PAY FOR IT?

CONSOMM OR KENDRA LARA DRIVES ME TO DISCUSS.

THEN, A LOOK AT THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF THE FIRST WOMAN ON THE SUPREME COURT, JUSTICE SANDRA DAY O'’CONNOR.

TWO LAW SCHOOL PROFESSORS JOIN ME ON THE TRAILS SHE PLAYS, AND HOW HER DECISIONS IMPACT THE COURT TODAY.

♪ , NEARLY CRYSTAL: ONE IN FIVE BOSTON RESIDENTS LIVE IN POVERTY, THAT IS ACCORDING TO THE LATEST DATA FROM THE U.S. CENSUS.

IT IS WHITE CITY OFFICIALS ARE LOOKING AT SENDING MONTHLY CASH PAYMENTS TO RESIDENTS, UNDER CERTAIN INCOME THRESHOLD, SOMETHING KNOWN AS GUARANTEED BASIC INCOME.

THEY HEARD FROM EXPERTS AND OFFICIALS LAST WEEK AND EXPLORED HOW ESTABLISHED, GUARANTEED INCOME PROGRAMS IN OTHER CITIES AND STATES COULD WORK IN BOSTON.

>> WHAT HAVE THEY DONE?

HOW HAVE THE OUTCOMES FEARED?

MANY OF THE FINDINGS ARE STILL PRELIMINARY.

WE ARE EVALUATING WHAT KIND OF SCOPE IS FEASIBLE, WHAT WOULD THE COSTS LOOK LIKE BASED ON THAT, WHAT DO DIFFERENT LEVELS OF INCOME MEAN FOR FAMILIES?

SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RECEIVING $600 A MONTH, VERSUS RECEIVING $1000 A MONTH.

CRYSTAL: SO HOW LIKELY IS IT FOR THE CITY TO IMPLEMENT GUARANTEED BASIC INCOME, AND WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE FOR THE PEOPLE OF BOSTON?

JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT IT IS THE BOSTON CITY COUNCILOR KENDRA LARA WHO SPONSORED LAST WEEK'’S HEARING ON THIS ISSUE ALONG WITH JESSICA RIDGE, EAST COAST PARTNERSHIP DIRECTOR FOR UP TOGETHER, AN ORGANIZATION WHICH ADVOCATES FOR DIRECT PAYMENTS AS A SOLUTION TO POVERTY.

WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

COUNCILOR LARA: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

JESSICA: THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

CRYSTAL: TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO BRING THIS UP, OTHER THAN THE VS YES FACTOR THAT THE RENT IS TOO DAMN HIGH.

[LAUGHTER] AMONG OTHER THINGS, BUT IN DRAFTING THIS PROGRAM, TALK TO ME ABOUT WANTING TO BRING THAT AS A BODY.

COUNCILOR LARA: I HAVE OFTEN TAKEN THE STANCE THAT THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL.

AS AS SOMEONE WHO GREW UP BELOW THE POVERTY LINE, I AM FAMILIAR WITH THE STRUGGLES OF WORKING-CLASS FAMILIES IN BOSTON.

.

WHEN I CAME TO PUBLIC OFFICE, I KNEW THAT ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY NEEDED TO LOOK LIKE MORE THAN FIRST-TIME HOMEBUYERS CLASSES AND MORE THAN JUST SUPPORT FOR BUSINESS OWNERS, WE NEEDED PROGRAMMING THAT WOULD FOCUS ON OUR MOST VULNERABLE IN THE FAMILY STRUGGLING THE MOST.

RIGHT NOW THE BOTTOM 20% OF PEOPLE IN BOSTON LIVE ON JUST $14,900.

SO A GUARANTEED BASIC INCOME PROGRAM HAS PROVEN ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND ACROSS THE WORLD TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON LIFTING THE FAMILIES OUT OF POVERTY.

CRYSTAL: JESSICA, I UNDERSTAND THAT UP TOGETHER HAS DISTRIBUTED MORE THAN 195 MILLION DOLLARS IN CASH PAYMENTS TO MORE THAN 200,000 PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY SINCE 2020.

TALK TO ME ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THAT.

JESSICA: UP TOGETHER IS A NATIONAL NONPROFIT AND WE HAVE BEEN IN BOSTON FOR 13 YEARS SPECIFICALLY AND WE HAVE DISTRIBUTED THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY, $195 MILLION TO 200,000 PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY SINCE 2020.

WE HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN SOME STUDIES THAT HAVE HAPPENED, EVALUATING THE EFFECTS OF CASH IN PEOPLE'’S LIVES.

THERE ARE NUMEROUS STUDIES OUT AND ABOUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WHAT THEY ALL SHOW IS PRETTY SIMILAR, THAT FAMILIES SPEND THEIR MONEY ON BASIC NEEDS -- TO KEEP THE LIGHTS ON, HELP PAY THEIR RENT, AS YOU REFERENCED, CRYSTAL, AND THEY ALSO USE IT TO YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT COMES NEXT.

SO IT HELPS THEM STABILIZE ENOUGH SO THEY CAN START THINKING ABOUT LONGER-TERM GOALS, GOING BACK TO SCHOOL, THEIR HEALTH OR THEIR CHILDREN'’S HEALTH.

OFTEN THEY ARE SUPPORTING EACH OTHER, OTHERS IN THEIR COMMUNITY WHO DON'’T HAVE ACCESS TO THE CASH.

IT'’S PRETTY CLEAR FROM STUDY TO STUDY THAT UP TOGETHER IS ACTUALLY IN BOSTON, WE WORKED ON A STUDY CALLED THE TRUST AND INVEST COLLABORATIVE, AND RANDOMIZED CONTROLLED TRIAL THAT FINISHED IN MAY.

WE ARE AWAITING THE DATA ANALYSIS FROM THAT AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO SHARING THAT DATA.

BUT THE STORIES WE ARE HEARING FROM FAMILIES ABOUT THE IMPACT IN THEIR LIVES IS REAL.

IF I HAVE A MOMENT, I WILL SHARE ONE STORY OF SANAI WHO WAS ABLE TO FINISH HER COLLEGE DEGREE BECAUSE SHE KNEW SHE WOULD HAVE THAT 15 MONTHS OF $800 A MONTH PAYMENT.

CRYSTAL: COUNCILOR LARA, TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT THIS WOULD LOOK LIKE FOR BOSTON RESIDENTS WHO WOULD QUALIFY.

COUNCILOR LARA: THAT IS A CONVERSATION WE ARE HAVING RIGHT NOW, WHAT DOES A GUARANTEED BASIC INCOME PROGRAM LOOK LIKE IN THE CITY OF BOSTON?

WE HAVE FAMILIES THAT COULD BE RECEIVING ANYWHERE FROM $600 TO $1000 A MONTH.

WE ARE LOOKING AT THE THRESHOLD.

HOW CAN THESE DIRECT CASH DEMANDS REALLY HAVE AN IMPACT, WHAT INCOME THRESHOLDS WOULD THESE CASH PAYMENTS BE THE MOST HELPFUL TO.

AND THE FUNDING MECHANISM FOR IT, WHO WILL BE DELIVERING THE PAYMENTS?

WOULD IT BE A COLLABORATION BETWEEN OUR COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATIONS AND OTHER PARTNERS?

THERE ARE ORGANIZATIONS IN BOSTON ALREADY IMPLEMENTING GUARANTEED BASIC INCOME PROGRAMS LIKE UP TOGETHER, CAMP HARBORVIEW.

WE ARE REALLY IN THE IDEATION PHASE OF WHAT A BASIC INCOME PROGRAM COULD NEGLECT FOR THE CITY OF BOSTON, SO WE AREN'’T REALLY HAVING A CONVERSATION OF WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD HAVE A BASIC INCOME PROGRAM.

I THINK WE ARE PAST THAT.

WE ARE IN AGREEMENT THAT THIS IS NOT ONLY A PROGRAM THAT WORKS AND IS TRANSFORMATIVE FOR PEOPLE IN POVERTY, BUT THIS IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD DEFINITELY DO.

IT'’S JUST A MATTER OF WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE WHEN IT DEFINITELY HAPPENS.

CRYSTAL: THERE WERE SOME CRITICS AT THE MEETING THAT WERE POINTING TO UNCERTAIN TIMES THAT WE HAVEN'’T RECOVERED FROM THE PANDEMIC AS A CITY IN GREATER BOSTON SO TO THEN SPEND THIS AMOUNT OF MONEY ON SOMETHING LIKE THIS WHERE IT MAY BE ANOTHER PROGRAM MIGHT BE SUCCESSFUL, WHAT TO SAY TO THOSE FOLKS?

COUNCILOR LARA: I THINK THE ECONOMIC UNCERTAINTY IS THE REASON WHY WE NEED A GUARANTEED BASIC INCOME.

WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE HOUSING CRISIS.

PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING TO NOT ONLY PAY RENT BUT ALSO TO PAY FOR THEIR BASIC NECESSITIES, BECAUSE WE HAVEN'’T RECOVERED FROM THE PANDEMIC.

FAMILY RECEIVING A $1000 AMOUNT CASH PAYMENT FROM THE CITY OR A COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION WILL HELP TO ENSURE THAT THEIR RENT IS PAID.

THAT HELPS OUR SMALL LANDLORDS.

SOMETIMES IT HELPS OUR DEVELOPERS.

IN CHELSEA THEY SPEND 75% OF THE $1.2 BILLION FOR A BASIC INCOME PILOT ON FOOD.

SO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PUTTING MONEY BACK INTO COMMUNITIES THAT WILL BE PUT BACK INTO THE CITY'’S ECONOMY.

WE SAW IT WITH THE STIMULUS CHECKS, WITH THE EARNED INCOME TAX CHILD CREDIT NATIONWIDE.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PULLING 2.9 MILLION CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY.

THAT IS A KIND OF IMPACT WE CAN HAVE HERE IN THE CITY.

SO ALTHOUGH THE ARGUMENT WAS PRESENTED AS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD STOP US FROM LOOKING AT E-CIG INCOME, I THINK IT'’S AN ARGUMENT FOR THE NEED FOR BASIC INCOME IN THE CITY.

CRYSTAL: MM.

JESSICA, PROBABLY YOU AND YOUR COHORTS HAVE TO MAKE THIS ARGUMENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND THERE ARE FOLKS WHO SAY WELL, WHY CAN'’T THEY JUST APPLY FOR PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, FOR FEDERAL DOLLARS?

WHY CAN'’T THESE FOLKS JUST GET A JOB?

I HAD TO GET A JOB.

THE OTHERS HERE THAT ARGUMENT WHEN TALKING ABOUT UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE FOLKS?

JESSICA: THE STORIES THAT WE HAVE BEEN TOLD OUR ENTIRE LIVES ABOUT WHAT CAUSES AND ENDS POVERTY ARE NOT TRUE, THEY ARE COMPLETELY WRONG FROM IT WE HAVE ALL BEEN FED STORIES ABOUT WELFARE QUEENS, PEOPLE CHEATING THE SYSTEM.

FULLY YOURSELF UP BY THE BOOTSTRAPS PERMIT WHAT WE HEAR AND SEE IS FAMILIES ARE WORKING OFTEN MULTIPLE JOBS TRYING TO MAKE ENDS MEET OR TRYING TO STRUGGLE FOR CHILD CARE, THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO GET A PROMOTION AT THEIR WORK, BUT THEY DO SO, THEY LOSE CHILD CARE.

THERE ARE WAYS WE HAVE SET UP OUR CURRENT SYSTEMS OF CARE AT THE FEDERAL AND STATE LEVEL THAT HAVE ACTUALLY MADE IT HARDER FOR FAMILIES TO GET AHEAD AND STAY AHEAD, SO, FOR US TOGETHER MAKING THESE INVESTMENTS IN PEOPLE IS REALLY ONE OF THE BEST INVESTMENTS WE CAN MAKE IN HUMAN INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND IT SUPPORTS THE WORK PEOPLE ARE ALREADY DOING IN THEIR COMMUNITIES AND MAKES IT A LITTLE BIT EASIER FOR THEM SO THEY CAN ACTUALLY DO MORE.

WORK MORE.

BE STABLE.

GET THEIR KIDS THE EDUCATION THAT THEY NEED.

CRYSTAL: SO THE DATA BEARS THAT OUT.

YOU MENTIONED A BIT ABOUT THIS, BUT, WHEN PEOPLE HAVE THIS BASIC INCOME OR GET THESE CHECKS, THEY ACTUALLY DO WORK MORE, CONTRIBUTE TO THE ECONOMY?

JESSICA: YES, THEY ARE ABLE TO STABILIZE IN THE WORK THEY ARE IN, ABLE TO GO TO SCHOOL, THAT IS A COMMON ONE THAT WE SEE.

THEIR HOUSING IS STABILIZED.

IT IS NOT BORENE OUT IN THAT DATA THAT PEOPLE WORK ALAS, THEY ACTUALLY WORK MORE.

COUNCILOR LARA: WE LOOKED AT BOTH CONDITIONAL AND UNCONDITIONAL INCOME PROGRAMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND IN THE WORLD AND ALL THE PRELIMINARY DATA SHOWS THE SAME, THERE IS NOT A DECREASE IN THE WORKFORCE.

TO PIGGYBACK A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT JESS IS MENTIONING, IS THAT, WHEN FAMILIES HAVE AND AN INABILITY TO PULL THEMSELVES OUT OF POVERTY, A LOT OF THE TIMES, IT'’S A LACK OF FINANCIAL RESOURCES THAT IS KEEPING THEM THERE.

EVEN A BASIC INCOME PILOT THAT COULD LAST FOR TWO YEARS COULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN A SINGLE MOTHER'’S LIFE.

SHE SAID, I KNOW I HAVE $1000 COMING IN EVERY SINGLE MONTH, I CAN WORK LESS HOURS AND GO AND GET AN ASSOCIATES DEGREE.

THAT NOW GIVES HER THE ABILITY TO WORK A BETTER PAYING JOB AND HELPS MOVE HER AND HER FAMILY OUT OF POVERTY.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT IMPACT.

WHETHER IT BE ADDITIONAL RESOURCES TO HAVE MORE CHILDCARE TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL, TO HAVE MORE CHILDCARE TO WORK MORE HOURS, TO SAY YES TO A PROMOTION.

THERE ARE SO MANY SYSTEMIC BARRIERS TO PULLING YOURSELF OUT OF POVERTY THAT CAN BE REMEDIED BY GIFTING PEOPLE DIRECT CASH PAYMENTS.

IT'’S NOT A NEW IDEA, DR. KING SAID IT IN 1967, RIGHT,, ", "THE REMEDY TO POVERTY WILL BE UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME."

IN 2023 WE ARE STILL HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION, BUT I THINK IT'’S AN IDEA AND POLICY WHOSE TIME HAS COME.

CRYSTAL:.

CRYSTAL: SO IT WOULD NECESSARILY BE AN INDEFINITE BASIC INCOME BUT MORE OF LIKE STARTING OVER A FEW YEARS?

COUNCILOR LARA: DEPENDS ON WHO YOU TALK TO.

I THINK I AM A SUPPORTER AND I HAVE SEEN THE BENEFIT OF PILOT OF STARTING.

WE HAVE SEEN SUCCESS IN THE CITY OF CAMBRIDGE WITH IMPLEMENTING A PILOT LEARNING, ITERATING, AND NOW THEY HAVE OVER $21 FOR BASIC INCOME BASED ON THE HEARING WE HEARD LAST WEEK -- $20 MILLION.

POVERTY IMPACTS SO MANY.

WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE COST OF THIS, IF I MAY JUST BACKTRACK A BIT, ALREADY PAYING FOR POVERTY.

POVERTY IS SHOWN TO IMPACT HEALTH OUTCOMES.

EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES.

WELL-BEING OF OUR COMMUNITIES.

WE ARE PAYING FOR IT ALREADY.

WHEN WE LOOK AT BASIC INCOME, LOOK AT THE ABILITY TO ENSURE THAT NOT ONLY FAMILIES, BUT OUR CHILDREN, RIGHT, THE POVERTY RATE IN THE CITY OF BOSTON FOR CHILDREN IS AT 27.7%.

IS HIGHER THAN THE POVERTY RATE FOR THE ENTIRE CITY.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FAMILIES, BUT ALSO TALKING ABOUT SETTING OUR CHILDREN UP TO HAVE THEIR BEST SHOT TO THRIVE.

CRYSTAL: AND FROM WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE, WE SPEND THE MONEY HERE, BUT LEAVE THE MONEY IN OTHER PLACES, IN OTHER CRISIS SUPPORT IN THE CITY'’ABSOLUTELY.

IT'’S THE SAME ARGUMENT WE MAKE WITH HEALTH CARE.

IF YOU INVEST IN PREVENTION, YOU SAVE MONEY ON THE OTHER END FOR TREATMENT THAT.

AMPING RECEIVE PROPERTY.

POVERTY IMPACTS -- THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SEE WITH POVERTY, IT IMPACTS SO MANY OUTCOMES.

IN OUR WORKING-CLASS BLACK AND BROWN NEIGHBORHOODS, WE HAVE AND OPPORTUNITY TO INVEST IN PREVENTION RIGHT NOW.

CRYSTAL: WHAT ABOUT THE ARGUMENT OF, DO WE HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

COUNCILOR LARA: THE RESOURCES ARE THERE.

I THINK THE RESOURCES ARE THERE IN PHILANTHROPIC DOLLARS, WITH PRIVATE DOLLARS.

WE JUST NEED TO BELIEVE THAT A COALITION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN REALLY REDUCING THE POVERTY RATE IN THE CITY OF BOSTON, TO TOGETHER AND HAVE A CONVERSATION.

BOSTON IS AN INCREDIBLY RICH CITY.

DESPITE THE FACT THAT OUR MEDIAN INCOME IS OVER $70,000 A YEAR, 20% OF THE POPULATION LIVE SIGNIFICANTLY BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.

THE FEDERAL POVERTY LINE, WE AREN'’T TALKING ABOUT THE ACTUAL COST OF LIVING HERE IN THE CITY OF BOSTON.

SO YES, I THINK IF WE REALLY MAKE A CASE TO THE GOODWILL OF OUR PARTNERS BOTH PHILANTHROPIC AND IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR HERE IN THE CITY, WE CAN REALLY GET THE FUNDS COMMITTED TO HAVE EITHER A PILOT FOR A PERMANENT BASIC INCOME PROGRAM IN THE CITY OF BOSTON.

CRYSTAL: YEAH, JESSICA, SEEMS LIKE $195 MILLION YOU ARE ABLE TO FIND A CASH SOMEWHERE.

JESSICA: THE CASH CAN BE FOUND.

IT'’S ABOUT MAKING THIS CHOICE.

AND ALSO BY IMPLEMENTING GUARANTEED BASIC INCOME, YOU'’RE ALSO GIVEN THE CHOICE BACK TO PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY POLICIES OVER TIME.

I AM THINKING OF LITA, FROM OUR CAMBRIDGE PILOT THAT WE DID, AND TO YOUR QUESTION THAT OFTEN COMES UP ABOUT WORK, SHE WORRIED ABOUT RUNNING OUT OF GAS EVERY DAY AND GOING TO WORK UNTIL THIS INFUSION OF CASH CAME INTO HER HOME.

SHE WAS ABLE TO DO A LOT OF THINGS WITH THAT, INCLUDING GETTING THERAPY FOR KIDS AND RECONNECTING WITH HER COMMUNITY.

AND STABILIZED AT HER JOB BECAUSE SHE DIDN'’T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE IMPACT OF RUNNING OUT OF GAS.

SO FOR ME, WE COULD INVEST IN PEOPLE NOW.

WE DON'’T NEED TO MAKE THE LITAS AND THE SANAIS OF OUR CITY WHEAT WHERE WE MAKE THOSE INVESTMENTS IN THOSE WHO ARE REALLY STRUGGLING UNDER THE POVERTY LINE, WHY WE PUT TOGETHER A GROUP OF THE SMARTEST PEOPLE IN THIS CITY TO THINK ABOUT THIS.

WHETHER IT BE PRIVATE BUSINESS, WE HAVE COMMUNITY MEMBERS WHO HAVE BEEN IMPACTED BY DIRECT CASH THE LAST THREE YEARS.

LET'’S GET THEM IN THE ROOM.

THIS IS BEING FIGURED OUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

CRYSTAL: JESSICA RIDGE AND KENDRA LARA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

JESSICA: THANK YOU FOR THE CONVERSATION.

CRYSTAL: FROM ARIZONA COWGIRL TO SUPREME COURT JUSTICE, WE ARE LOOKING BACK AT THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF SANDRA DAY O'’CONNOR, THE FIRST WOMAN EVER NAMED TO THE UNITED STATES'’ HIGHEST COURT, WHO DIED AT THE AGE OF 93.

SHE WAS APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT REAGAN BACK IN 1981 AFTER A CAREER OF FIRSTS IN ARIZONA POLITICS.

WHILE SHE WAS CONSIDERED A CONSERVATIVE PICK, SHE BECAME KNOWN AS ALMOST LIBERAL WHEN THIS "SHIFTED TO THE RIGHT OFTEN BECOMING THE SWING VOTE.

THAT GAVE HER CONSIDERABLE INFLUENCE OVER MAJOR DECISIONS AND HER 24 EURO TENURE WAS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS THE "O'CONNOR COURT."

I AM JOINED BY BHAMATI VISWANATHAN, FACULTY FELLOW WITH THE NEW ENGLAND SCHOOL OF LAW, AND MARTHA DAVIS, DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR OF LORD NORTH EASTON WHERE SHE TEACHES -- PROFESSOR OF LAW AT NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY WHERE SHE TEACHES CONSTITUTIONAL LAW AMONG OTHERS.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH ME.

I WILL START WITH YOU FIRST, BHAMATI.

WHEN HE HEARD ABOUT SANDRA DAY O'’CONNOR REFLECTING ON HER LEGACY, BUT CAME TO MIND FOR YOU?

BHAMATI: OF COURSE, EVERY WOMAN THINKS, WHAT A TRAIL BLAZER.

I LOVED HER.

I RESPECTED HER.

AT TIMES I FEARED SOME OF HER OPINIONS BECAUSE SHE DIDN'’T LINE UP WITH ME, BUT I RESPECTED HER SO MUCH AS A PERSON AND AS A JURIST.

SHE IS A ROLE MODEL.

WHEN STARTING OUT IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION AND YOU LOOK AT OTHER WOMEN WHO HAVE REALLY TRAIL BLAZED FOR YOU, IT'’S A HUGE JUSTICE.

SO MUCH ADMIRATION.

SHE WAS SO THOUGHTFUL, KIND AND COMPASSIONATE TO ANYONE SHE TALKS TO END HER OPINIONS WERE FABULOUS, SHE WAS BRILLIANT AND ALSO SOMEONE WHO THOUGHT ABOUT THE IMPACT SHE WOULD HAVE ON PEOPLE'’S EVERYDAY LIVES.

I APPRECIATE AND THINK ABOUT THAT EVERY DAY.

CRYSTAL: MARTHA, SHE PRESIDED OVER SOME LANDMARK CASES THAT ARE WELL BEING USED, CITED, QUOTED ON TODAY.

MARTHA FISH AND SOMETIMES BEING QUESTIONED BY THE CURRENT COURT.

THE THING THAT CAME TO MIND FOR ME WAS JUST THE RECOGNITION OF HOW FAR THE COURT HAS SHIFTED TO THE RIGHT SINCE SHE WAS ON THE COURT.

I AGREE WITH THE THINGS WE JUST HEARD ABOUT HER, TRAILBLAZING.

BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN, SHE REALLY CAP THE COURT IN THE MIDDLE AND IT REALLY HAS DRIFTED SO FAR TO THE RIGHT SINCE THEN.

FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE IMPORTANT CASES SHE AUTHORED WAS THE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION CASE, AND THE COURT HAS NOW DEPARTED FROM THAT PRECEDENT VERY RECENTLY NOW, THAT WAS THE CASE WHERE, IN HER OPINION, SHE UPHELD AFFIRMATIVE ACTION BY THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN LAW SCHOOL.

AND NOW IT HAS BEEN STRUCK DOWN OR DISALLOWED AT HARVARD.

IN THE MOST RECENT TERM.

CRYSTAL: IT'’S SUCH AN INTERESTING CASE WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HER APPOINTMENT SHE WAS CONSIDERED THE CONSERVATIVE PICK BUT THEN ENDED UP, AS YOU MENTIONED, BEING THE ONE THAT KEPT THE COURT IN BALANCE.

NOW WE SEE A VERY DIFFERENT SUPREME COURT, WHAT THAT LANDSCAPE LOOKS LIKE.

MARTHA: WHEN SHE RETIRED, ONE OF THE THINGS I NOTED -- I WAS IN PRACTICE AT THE TIME -- WAS THE WAY THE COURT MOVED TO THE RIGHT.

KENNEDY WHO HAD BEEN FULL OVER TO THE MIDDLE BY HER, FORMING A KIND OF GROUP, YOU NO LONGER HAD THOSE ALLIES IN THE MIDDLE AND HE DEFINITELY DRIFTED FAR TO THE RIGHT ALONG WITH THE REST, AND BROUGHT THE REST OF THE COURT WITH HIM.

CRYSTAL: DO YOU SEE THIS IS AN INTERESTING, THE LANDSCAPE OR THE NATURE OF THE COURT NOW VERSUS THE COURT THAT SANDRA DAY O'’CONNOR SAT ON, IT SEEMS SO DIFFERENT EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS CONSIDERED A CONSERVATIVE.

BHAMATI: THE COURT, THE TIMES, PEOPLE TODAY.

BUT I WANT TO GO BACK TO WHAT MARTHA SAID, THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN LAW SCHOOL DECISION CAME OUT A YEAR AFTER I GRADUATED LAW SCHOOL.

D. BOLLINGER WAS THE DEAN AT THE TIME.

IT WAS TWO DECISIONS, AT THE LAW SCHOOL LEVEL, AND AT THE UNDERGRAD LEVEL.

AT THE LAW SCHOOL LEVEL, SHE SAID, YES, THIS CAN BE AN IMPORTANT FACTOR.

IN THE UNDERGRADUATE LEVEL, SHE SAID YOU CAN'’T GIVE 20 POINTS TO EACH STUDENT AND JUST TREAT IT AS A QUOTA.

IT WAS STRUCK DOWN.

YOU NOTICED HER CAREFUL CENTRIST PATH AND THINKING ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.

THAT KIND OF SCRUPULOUS IN THIS AND CARE AND SPLITTING OF THE BABY, IT WAS SOMETHING THAT THE COURT I THINK ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN AND WANTED TO DO IN ORDER TO CREATE COALITIONS.

THAT IS REALLY NOT WHAT WE SEE HAPPENING NOW.

WE JUST SEE THE COURT SOMETIMES GOING, YOU KNOW, PRECEDENT -- WHATEVER.

IT'’S A VERY DIFFERENT KIND OF DECISION-MAKING, A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

AND IT IS MORE PARTISAN.

IT'’S TROUBLING BECAUSE IT SORT OF REFLECTS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN SOME WAYS IN THE COUNTRY AS WELL.

IT MUST HAVE BEEN HARD FOR O'CONNOR TO SEE HER LEGACY OF SCRUPULOUS JURISPRUDENCE BEING TAKEN IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DIRECTION, AS MATHUR SAYS.

CRYSTAL: ESPECIALLY WHEN WE'’RE HEARING POLITICIANS SAYING THAT WE ARE MOVING IN A WAY THAT SEEMS UNCONSTITUTIONAL IN THE COURT.

I WAS ALSO THOUGHTFUL IN RESEARCHING FOR THIS INTERVIEW, THAT SHE WALKED INTO A COURT WITH THE BUILDING ITSELF, IT DIDN'’T EVEN HAVE A WOMEN'’S ROOM.

MARTHA: RIGHT.

SHE WAS A VERY STRONG PERSON, FOR SURE, TO DEAL WITH THAT KIND OF THING.

WHILE I AM NOT SURE SHE THOUGHT OF HERSELF AS A FEMINIST, BECAUSE OF THE PLACES SHE FOUND HERSELF IN, WAS CHAMPIONING WOMEN'’S RIGHT FREQUENTLY.

DURING THE TIME SHE WAS ON THE COURT, DURING THE TIME I WAS PRACTICING IN THE WOMEN'’S RIGHT ORGANIZATION, WE CAN COUNT ON HER VOTE, BUT WHEN YOU SHE WAS SUPPORTIVE OF A LOT OF THE THINGS WE DID.

ESPECIALLY WHEN IT INVOLVED SOMETHING INVOLVING STEREOTYPES OF WOMEN, OR AREAS WHERE THERE WEREN'’T EXPLICIT DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMEN, SHE WAS DEFINITELY VERY SYMPATHETIC AND EMPATHETIC ABOUT THAT.

SO THE CASE FOR WHICH SHE IS MOVING MOST OFTEN CITED IS THE DECISION IN THE PLANNED PARENTHOOD VERSUS CASEY CASE WHERE JUSTICE KENNEDY AND JUSTICE SOUTER AND SHE CAME TOGETHER IN THIS 3-JUSTICE OPINION THAT UPHELD KEY COMPONENTS OF THE RIGHT TO ABORTION.

IN PARTICULAR, ONE PART OF THE PENNSYLVANIA LAW THAT THEY STRUCK DOWN WAS THE PROVISION THAT MANDATED THAT A WOMAN GO GET HER HUSBAND'’S PERMISSION IN ORDER TO GET THE ABORTION.

SHE REALLY UNDERSTOOD THE KIND OF EXPOSURE THAT MIGHT GIVE WOMEN TO ABUSE.

THE VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.

SHE HERSELF HAD BEEN ACTIVE IN THE JUNIOR LEAGUE IN ARIZONA WHEN THEY HAD TAKEN UP VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AS A PARTICULAR CAMPAIGN ISSUE FOR THEM.

IT WAS SOMETHING SHE UNDERSTOOD AS A WOMAN.

THAT SHOWED UP IN HER OPINIONS, EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS CONSERVATIVE ON FEDERALISM, CONSERVATIVE ON MANY OTHER ISSUES.

BUT ON THE WOMEN'’S RIGHTS SIDE, OFTEN SHE UNDERSTOOD WHAT THE ISSUES WERE AND WAS SIDING WITH JUSTICE GINSBURG.

ALSO BRINGING KENNEDY AND JUSTICE SOUTER ALONG.

SHE WAS A VERY IMPORTANT VOICE ON THE COURT ESPECIALLY AT THE TIME WHEN SHE WAS THE ONLY WOMAN.

CRYSTAL: WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT HER NEARLY 25 YEARS ON THE COURT , ABORTION, AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, BOARDING RATES, RELIGIOUS LIBERTY, AND EQUALITY, FREE SPEECH, ALL BEFORE RETIRING IN 2006.

IT'’S INCREDIBLE.

MARTHA: CAMPAIGN FINANCE AND OTHER THINGS YOU HAVEN'’T EVEN MENTIONED.

I DO PROPERTY LAW, NOBODY WANTS US TO TALK ABOUT THOSE CASES, BUT WHAT SHE DID IN THOSE CASES WEST RYE TO BALANCE FREE COMPETITION -- WAS SHE TRIED TO BALANCE FREE COMPETITION, THE ENGINE OF FREE EXPRESSION COPYRIGHT IS WHAT YOU CALLED IT.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, THE RIGHT OF INDIVIDUALS IN THEIR CREATIVE WORKS.

THAT IS SOMETHING I CARE DEEPLY ABOUT, PARTICULARLY WITH RESPECT TO WOMEN AND MINORITIES.

BIPOC RIGHTS ARE UNIMPORTANT THING FOR ME PERSONALLY, BUT SHE SAW THAT UPHOLDING PEOPLE'’S RIGHT IN THEIR PROPERTY AND WORK WOULD BENEFIT ALL OF US.

NOW, SOME PEOPLE THINK, HER EMPHASIS ON PERSONAL PROPERTY AND PRIVATE PROPERTY WENT TOO FAR.

IT DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU FALL ON THE SPECTRUM.

BUT YOU WOULD SEE IN HER CASE IS THAT SHE WOULD REASON IT OUT, THINK ABOUT HOW IT LANDED AND AFFECTED PEOPLE.

I AGREE WITH YOU SO MUCH, MARTHA, ON CASEY.

WHEN SHE TALKS ABOUT SPOUSAL CONSENT.

WHY THAT WOULD BE SO HARD FOR A WOMAN TO HAVE TO ASK HER HUSBAND -- TO ASK HER HUSBAND.

WE THINK OF THAT AS OUTRAGEOUS THESE DAYS, BUT BACK THEN IT WASN'’T CONSIDERED SO OUTRAGEOUS SHE DIDN'’T QUITE THINK AS MUCH ABOUT HOW IT MIGHT LAND ON POOR WOMEN TO HAVE A WAITING PERIOD.

OR TO HAVE TO GO BACK FOR THEIR TERMINATION.

I THINK IT WAS EASIER FOR HER SOMETIMES TO SEE CERTAIN SIDES THAN OTHER SIDES.

BUT NONE OF US HAVE PERFECT VISION ON THESE THINGS.

SHE DID HER BEST AND CARED DEEPLY ABOUT HOW THIS WOULD PLAY OUT.

SHE WAS ALSO -- I THINK SHE WAS HUMBLE.

SHE SAID WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT HOW THE SCOPE OF OUR OPINIONS, BECAUSE WE CAN'’T TELL WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN OUR FUTURE.

SHE SAID, YOU DON'’T WANT TO HAVE REGRETS DOWN THE LINE AND YOU DON'’T KNOW HOW THINGS WILL TURN OUT.

SHE WAS ADMIRABLE REALLY, A VERY CAREFUL JURIST.

MARTHA: THINKING ABOUT THE SPOUSAL CONSENT PIECE, ONE ASPECT OF THAT CASE IS THAT HE CAME UP THROUGH THE PENNSYLVANIA FEDERAL COURT SYSTEM, AND JUSTICE ALITO WHO WAS ON THE LOWER COURT THEN, BEFORE HE ASCENDED TO THE SUPREME COURT, UPHELD THE SPOUSAL CONSENT PROVISION.

SO THAT GIVES YOU A SENSE OF HOW THE COURT HAS CHANGED.

A PERSON WHO WOULD HAVE UPHELD THAT IS NOW WRITING THE DOBBS CASE.

BHAMATI: SAME THING IN THE CAMPAIGN-FINANCE REFORM CASE.

YOU'’RE FORGETTING THE NAME, THE MCCAIN-FEINGOLD CAMPAIGN STORY.

SHE SAID, LOOK, THERE IS A POTENTIAL FOR CORRUPTION HERE WITH THESE GIGANTIC CAMPAIGN-FINANCE CONTRIBUTIONS, AND THE PERSON WHO SAID, "NO, I DON'’T SEE THE PROBLEM," KENNEDY, WHO SHE HAD TO PERSUADE HIM THAT OPINION SEVERAL YEARS LATER OVERRULED IT AND SAID, "THERE IS NO POTENTIAL FOR CORRUPTION HERE."

YOU CAN SEE EVEN IN HER LIFETIME, BUT ESPECIALLY AFTER HER LIFETIME ON THE COURT, THIS ROWING BACK, SYSTEMATICALLY DISMANTLING HER LEGACY ON THE COURT AND MANY OF THE THINGS SHE HELD MOST DEAR.

SOMEONE ASKED HER, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS?

SHE WAS AWESOME.

SHE SAID, "HOW WOULD YOU FEEL?"

[LAUGHTER] SHE SAID, ", OF COURSE, I AM DISAPPOINTED."

SHE WAS VERY MUCH A PRAGMATIST AND SHE KNEW THAT THINGS CHANGE.

WE AS LAW PROFESSORS I THINK HOPE AND BELIEVE THINGS WILL CHANGE AS WELL.

LAW IS NOT STATIC.

MARTHA: RIGHT, IT'’S ABOUT TEACHING LAW STUDENTS ABOUT LEARNING HOW TO PRESENT THE ISSUES IN WAYS THAT MIGHT ILLUMINATE THEM ANEW.

I GUESS THAT IS THE POSTURE WE ARE IN NOW WITH A LOT OF THESE ISSUES.

CRYSTAL: RIGHT.

AND YOU YOURSELF LEAD THE FIGHT AT THE NOW LEGAL DEFENSE FUND.

BHAMATI: MARTHA DAVIS IS ONE OF THE LEADERS FOR WOMEN'’S RIGHTS IN THE WORLD.

YOU KNOW WHAT IT'’S LIKE RIGHT NOW, SORT OF LOOKING AT WHAT WE ARE FACING, BUT YOU DON'’T PUT DOWN YOUR SWORD.

YOU SAY, LISTEN, STUDENTS -- SOMETIMES I SAY TO THEM, I AM TIRED.

YOU TAKE UP THIS FIGHT.

[LAUGHTER] IT'’S YOUR TURN, YOUNG PEOPLE.

THAT IS PRECISELY WHY I AM TEACHING.

BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO LEAD THE WAY.

THINGS ARE NOT STATIC IN THE LAW.

CRYSTAL:.

CRYSTAL: CERTAINLY AN EXTRAORDINARY LEGACY.

THE MULTIRACIAL NATHAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US, AND MARTHA DAVIS AS WELL -- BHAMATI VISWANATHAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US, AND MARTHA DAVIS AS WELL.

TOMORROW WE WILL TALK TO THE JOURNALS BEHIND A NEW "FRONTLINE" DOCUMENTARY ABOUT WHAT POLICE DID AND DIDN'’T DO DURING THE SCHOOL SHOOTING IN UVALDE, TEXAS.

PLUS, A LOOK AT WHAT YOU DO FIRST INSTALLED IN 19 1988 MURDER OF DORCHESTER'’S RITA HESTER, WHOSE CASE INSPIRED THE NATIONAL TRANSGENDER DAY OF REMEMBRANCE.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

A.M.

CRYSTAL HAYNES.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

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