>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

A CRESCENDO OF WARNINGS EVEN FROM REPUBLICANS ABOUT THE DANGERS OF A SECOND TRUMP TERM.

THE RISK OF AMERICA BECOMING AN ILL LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, AND EVEN A RELIGIOUS REPUBLIC.

AUTHOR TIM ALBERTO JOINS ME WITH HIS BOOK ABOUT EVANGELICALS AND MAGA POLITICS, NEXT.

>>> AN APOCALYPTIC SITUATION.

U.N. OFFICIALS SAY THERE IS NO SAFE PLACE FOR CIVILIANS AS ISRAELI TANKS DESCEND ON SOUTHERN GAZA.

"NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER RONAN BERGMAN TELLS ME ABOUT HIS EXCLUSIVE REPORTING ABOUT ISRAEL'S INVASION BEFORE THE OCTOBER 7 ATTACKS.

>>> AND HOW THE HOUSTON FIGHTING HOMELESSNESS?

COLUMNIST NICHOLAS KRISTOF TELLS HARRY SRINIVASAN.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDICE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON, AND WE BEGIN WITH THE RISING THREAT TO OUR DEMOCRACIES.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN DECADES, THERE ARE MORE AUTOCRACIES THAN LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES AROUND THE WORLD, ACCORDING TO A EUROPEAN UNIVERSITY THAT TRACKS THESE THINGS.

AND FEARS ABOUT AMERICA ARE GROWING IF DONALD TRUMP WINS A SECOND TERM TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

JUST SIX WEEKS BEFORE THE IOWA CAUCUSES, HERE IS WHAT FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSWOMAN LIZ CHENEY SAYS.

>> PEOPLE WHO SAY WELL, IF HE'S ELECTED, IT'S NOT THAT DANGEROUS BECAUSE WE HAALL OF THESE CHECK AND BALANCES DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS TODAY HAVE BEEN COOPTED.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE HAPPENING TODAY IS A SORT OF A SLEEPWALKING INTO DICTATORSHIP IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> THESE ARE STARTLING WORDS INDEED.

NOT ONLY DOES TRUMP FACE 91 CRIMINAL CHARGES, BUT HIS EXTREME RHETORIC ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL IS A MAJOR CONCERN, DESCRIBING POLITICAL RIVALS AS VERMIN.

PRESIDENT BIDEN CALLS THAT NAZI TALK, AND TRUMP PLEDGES TO INSTALL IDEOLOGICAL ALLIES IN KEY POSITIONS TO TURN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INTO HIS REVENGE SQUAD.

AROUND THE WORLD, HE HAS PRAISED SADDAM HUSSEIN'S BRUTAL METHODS, THE TIANANMEN SQUARE CRACKDOWN, AND PUTIN'S STRONGMAN TACTICS, JUST TO MENTION A FEW.

CENTRAL TO TRUMP'S SUPPORT IS HIS CHRISTIAN EVANGELICAL BASE.

THE ATLANTIC WRITER TIM ALBERTA'S LATEST BOOK, "THE KINGDOM, THE POWER AND THE GLORY" EXAMINES THE NEXUS BETWEEN THE FAR RIGHT AND POWER POLITICS.

HE SAW IT CLOSE-UP WHOSE FATHER WAS AN EVANGELICAL MINISTER, AND HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

TIM ALBERTA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I WANT TO FIRST ASK YOU ABOUT THIS NEXUS BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND TRUMP, AND THEN GO DEEPER INTO YOUR BOOK IN A MOMENT.

SO HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN, WHAT IS IT THAT SORT OF MAKES YOU INVESTIGATE HOW THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH IS, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY IN HOCK TO TRUMP?

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I THINK WHAT WE'VE COME TO REALIZE IN RECENT YEARS, THOSE OF US OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH, BUT I THINK EVEN MORE SO, THOSE OF US INSIDE THE CHURCH IS THAT SOMETHING HAS CHANGED WITH THE AMERICAN CHRISTIAN AND PARTICULARLY THE AMERICAN EVANGELICALS' MENTALITY AS IT PERTAINS TO COUNTRY AND POLITICS AND THE DEGREE TO WHICH AMERICA, OR AT LEAST THE IDEALIZED AMERICA OF THEIR YOUTH, A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE CHRISTIAN CULTURE IS SLIPPING AWAY FROM THEM.

AND THEY LOOK AT DONALD TRUMP MORE AND MORE AS SOMEONE WHO CAN KEEP THE BARBARIANS OUTSIDE OF THE GATE, SOMEONE WHO CAN STOP THIS DECLINE, EVEN THOUGH HE DOES NOT SHARE THEIR VALUES OR SHARE THEIR BELIEFS, THIS IS SOMEONE WHO AS A STRONGMAN CAN PROTECT THEM.

THE DANGER IN THAT, OF COURSE, AS WE'VE SEEN THROUGHOUT WORLD HISTORY IS THAT WHEN AUTOCRACY AND STRONGMAN POLITICS MERGE WITH RELIGIOUS ZEALOTRY AND RELIGIOUS JUSTIFICATION FOR VIOLENCE, WE SEE DISASTER TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

AND THAT IS TO BE VERY BLUNT ABOUT IT THE TRAJECTORY THAT WE ARE HEADED TOWARD IN THE UNITED STATES IF SOMETHING ISN'T DONE ABOUT IT.

>> SO NOT JUST THE COLLISION, BUT ACTUALLY, RELIGIOUS -- THE RELIGIOUS IMPERATIVE, LET'S SAY CAN OFTEN BE A COVER FOR THAT AUTHORITARIANISM.

IT DOESN'T JUST HAPPEN.

SO I WONDER WHAT THE EVANGELICALS WHO YOU KNOW AND WHO YOU'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT FOR THIS BOOK SAY WHEN YOU HEAR, YOU KNOW, ABOUT HIM COMPLETELY OPENLY TALKING ABOUT HIS AUTHORITARIAN IMPULSES.

REAR SOME OF THE CURRENT HEADLINES.

"THE WASHINGTON POST" TRUMP DICTATORSHIP IS INCREASINGLY INEVITABLE.

THAT'S ROBERT KAGAN.

IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES," WHY A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY MAY BE MORE RADICAL THAN HIS FIRST.

AND YOUR OWN MAGAZINE, THE "ATLANTIC," THE THREAT A SECOND TERM TRUMP POSES TO THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

SO HOW DID WITH THIS BASE DID AMERICA GET TO THIS PLACE?

AND DOES THIS RELIGIOUS BASE CONDONE THE -- I GUESS THE THOUGHTS BEHIND THESE HEADLINES?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT AS WE SEE IN RUSSIA WITH ITS INVASION OF UKRAINE THAT OFTENTIMES A PUBLIC THAT IS UNWILLING TO EMBRACE CERTAIN POLICIES AS A MATTER OF SECULAR PARTISAN POLITICS, THEY CAN BE CONVINCED TO RALLY AROUND THOSE SAME POLICIES WHEN THERE IS A RELIGIOUS JUSTIFICATION INJECTED INTO THEM.

AND WE'RE SEEING SOMETHING SIMILAR HAPPEN IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY.

SPECIFICALLY, WHEN DONALD TRUMP FACES THESE PILING CRIMINAL INDICTMENTS AND WHEN HE GOES OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL AND SAYS TO THESE VOTERS THAT REALLY, THEY'RE COMING AFTER YOU.

THEY JUST HAVE TO COME AFTER ME FIRST.

BUT ULTIMATELY, YOU'RE THEIR ENEMY.

THEY'RE COMING AFTER YOU.

THEY'RE COMING AFTER YOUR CHURCHES.

THEY'RE COMING AFTER YOUR RELIGION.

THAT IS CONNECTING AND RESONATING DEEPLY WITH AN EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT IN AMERICA, CHRISTIANE, THAT HAS BEEN MARINATING IN THAT SORT OF END TIMES RHETORIC FOR JGENERATIONS.

IN OTHER WORDS, IT MAY BE UNFAMILIAR TO THOSE OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH.

BUT AS SOMEONE WHO GREW UP LISTENING TO THAT SORT OF TALK, THIS IDEA THAT CHRISTIANITY WAS IN THE CROSSHAIRS AND THAT TO DEFEAT GOD AND TO DEFEAT GOD'S PURPOSE FOR THE WORLD, THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO FIRST DEFEAT AMERICA, THAT HAS EFFECTIVELY CONVINCED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE THAT FIGHTING FOR UNITED STATES AND FIGHTING FOR THEIR VERSION, A CONSERVATIVE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN REPUBLICAN UNITED STATES IS VERY BIT FIGHTING FOR THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF.

AND TRUMP INSTINCTIVELY UNDERSTANDS THIS, MUCH IN THE SAME WAY I WOULD SAY THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS WEAPONIZED SIMILAR RELIGIOUS JUSTIFICATION FOR HIS INVASION OF UKRAINE.

>> AND WEAPONIZED IT, AND ACTUALLY BEEN BLESSED PUBLICLY BY THE PATRIARCH, THE ORTHODOX PATRIARCH IN RUSSIA WAS A HUGE DEAL AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR WHEN WE SAW THOSE PICTURES AND THOSE IMAGES.

THE IDEA OF WHAT YOU SAY THE CHURCH HAS BEEN MARINATING IN THIS, TRUMP HIMSELF VERY, VERY EARLY ON, WAY BEFORE HE WAS A POLITICAL FIGMENT OF ANYBODY'S IMAGINATIONS, YOU KNOW, SAID TO "PLAYBOY" MAGAZINE, WHEN THE STUDENTS POURED INTO TIANANMEN SQUARE, THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT ALMOST BLEW IT.

THEN THEY WERE VICIOUS, THEY WERE HORRIBLE, BUT THEY PUT IT DOWN WITH STRENGTH.

THAT SHOWS YOU THE POWER OF STRENGTH.

OUR COUNTRY IS RIGHT NOW PERCEIVED AS WEAK.

SO THIS WAS HIGHLIGHTED FROM AN OLD "PLAYBOY" MAGAZINE INTERVIEW.

SO HE'S BEEN TELEGRAPHING THIS STUFF FOR A LONG TIME.

HAS THE RELIGIOUS BASE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS FOR A LONG TIME?

>> YES.

AND IN FACT, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS PERSONAL HISTORY AND SOME OF HIS MORAL SHORTCOMINGS, YOU KNOW, THE DIVORCES AND THE MISTRESSES PARADED THROUGH THE TABLOIDS AND ALL OF THE MESSY STUFF IN HIS PERSONAL LIFE, WE MIGHT BE TEMPTED TO THINK WELL, HE WOULD NEVER BE A MATCH FOR THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT.

HE WOULD NEVER BE HELD UP AS AN EX-EXEMPLAR OR REPRESENTATIVE OF THIS MOVEMENT, AND YET, CHRISTIANE, I THINK IN SOME WAY TRUMP IS A STRONG MAN AND A CHAMPION FOR THIS MOVEMENT BECAUSE HE IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

IN OTHER WORDS, SO MANY OF THESE PEOPLE, WHEN THEY THINK ABOUT THEIR POWER OR THEIR COLLECTIVE POWER AS CHRISTIANS BEING ERODED THIS COUNTRY, THEY'VE COME TO THINK OF TRUMP AS SOMEONE MORE POWERFUL BECAUSE HE IS NOT BOUND BY BIBLICAL DOGMA.

HE IS NOT HAVING TO OBSERVE THEIR SAME RULES.

AND IN MANY WAYS, THAT IS HIS SUPERPOWER.

SO WHEN TRUMP SAYS TO CHRISTIANS THAT IF YOU ELECT ME, HE WILL MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE POWER, I WILL MAKE SURE THAT CHRISTIANITY HAS POWER, HE WILL MAKE SURE THAT THE CHURCH HAS POWER, THAT IS EXACTLY THE MESSAGE THESE PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR, EVEN WHILE THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE MESSENGER IS VERY MUCH FLAWED.

>> SO WOULD THAT THEREFORE THE DELIVERY ON THAT PROMISE, WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN PUTTING IN THE JUDGES IN PLACE WHO EVENTUALLY OVERTURNED ROE V. WADE?

IS IT AS BASIC AS THAT?

>> I THINK IT GOES BEYOND THAT, CHRISTIANE.

I THINK THAT IN A FIRST TRUMP TERM THAT YES, WE WERE THINKING ABOUT POLICIES.

WE WERE THINKING ABOUT ABORTION.

WE WERE THINKING ABOUT RELIGIOUS LIBERTY.

WE WERE THINKING ABOUT THE COURT APPOINTMENTS.

I THINK SOME OF THESE HEADLINES YOU WERE REFERENCING A MOMENT AGO SPEAK TO WHAT MIGHT COME IN THE FUTURE.

WHEN DONALD TRUMP JUST RECENTLY ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL IN NEW HAMPSHIRE FLOATED THE IDEA OF A RELIGIOUS LITMUS TEST FOR PEOPLE ENTERING THE COUNTRY, THIS IS BEYOND THE MUSLIM BAN THAT WE SAW IN HIS FIRST TERM.

TRUMP IS NOW SAYING EXPLICITLY THAT IF YOU ARE A MUSLIM, A JEW, A HINDU, AN ATHEIST, IF YOU ARE ANYTHING EXCEPT A PROFESSING CHRISTIAN, WE MIGHT NOT LET YOU INTO THIS COUNTRY ANYMORE AS AN IMMIGRANT.

AND I WOULD ADD THAT THAT IS JUST THE SCRATCHING OF THE SURFACE AS FAR AS WHAT DONALD TRUMP AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM IN A SECOND TERM HAVE IN MIND FOR AN AGENDA AS IT PERTAINS TO ALMOST A MARRYING OF CHURCH AND STATE.

NOT BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP IS PERSONALLY RELIGIOUS.

NOT BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP IS IN ANY WAY GUIDED BY THE DICTATES OF SCRIPTURE, BUT SIMPLY BECAUSE HE VIEWS POWER AND HIS ABILITY TO CONSOLIDATE POWER AS A PARTY MATTER OF THE STATE AS INEXTRICABLY TIED TO THE POWER OF THE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> SO YOU KNOW PARTICULARLY AT HIS FIRST TERM PEOPLE SAID AH, YOU KNOW, TRUMP TALKS A DIFFICULT GAME.

HE IS ALWAYS SAYING CRAZY THINGS.

BUT ACTUALLY, HE'S GOT A BUNCH OF ADULTS AROUND HIM.

HE DOESN'T REALLY BELIEVE THIS STUFF, AND THE ADULTS WILL KEEP THE PARAMETERS AND THE GUARDRAILS ON.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF THAT THAT STILL EXISTS?

DO YOU THINK DONALD TRUMP IS JUST SAYING ALL THIS STUFF OR WE SHOULD PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HE IS ACTUALLY SAYING AND CERTAINLY WHAT HIS AIDES AND CAMPAIGN STAFF ARE SAYING?

>> NOT ONLY DO I THINK THAT THE GUARDRAILS NO LONGER EXIST, BUT IN FACT, I BELIEVE THAT TRUMP WILL NOW BE SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO WILL ENCOURAGE HIS VERY WORST IMPULSES.

IN OTHER WORDS, NO LONGER WILL YOU HAVE THE PAUL RYANS AND THE NAME MADIS AND THE JOHN KELLYS AND THE H.R.

McMASTERS IN THE WEST WING TO GET TRUMP TO SORT OF STEP BACK FROM OR TALK HIM OUT OF THE THINGS THAT COULD BE MOST DAMAGING TO THE COUNTRY.

YOU WILL NOW HAVE PEOPLE ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING THOSE WORST BASIC SORT OF PRIMAL POLITICAL INSTINCTS.

AND I WOULD ADD, CHRISTIANE, IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING AROUND CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM, AROUND THE MARRYING OF CHURCH AND STATE, THERE WILL BE PEOPLE IN A TRUMP WHITE HOUSE IN PROMINENT POSITIONS WHO ARE SELF-DESCRIBED CHRISTIAN NATIONALISTS, PEOPLE WHO VERY MUCH VIEW THEMSELVES AS EXISTING IN A WORLD WHERE THEOCRACY IS NOT A DIRTY WORD, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO TAKE EVERY OPPORTUNITY IN A SECOND TRUMP TERM TO MAKE SURE THAT CHRISTIANITY IS PROMOTED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER RELIGIONS, AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER TRADITIONS, FAITH OR OTHERWISE.

AND SO THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO I THINK HAVE A PLAN IN PLACE FOR ANOTHER TRUMP TERM THAT IT WOULD I THINK BE UNPRECEDENTED IN THE SCOPE AND IN THE SWEEP OF HOW THEY ENVISION THE STATE'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CHURCH, BUT NOT ONLY THAT, THE CHURCH'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BROADER CULTURE.

>> SO CAN I ASK YOU WHETHER THE CHURCH IS UNIFIED ON THIS?

HAVE SOME OF THEM SEEN ENOUGH OF THE FIRST TRUMP TERM AND MAYBE A NOT SO MUCH BEHIND HIM AS THEY WERE BEFORE?

I ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU, AS I MENTIONED IN THE LEAD-IN TO YOU, GREW UP CHRISTIAN EVANGELICAL.

YOUR FATHER WAS A MINISTER.

YOU GREW UP IN THAT CHURCH.

WHAT WAS IT THAT MADE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THINGS WERE VERY DIFFERENT?

>> WELL, THERE WAS A LONG SIMMERING, LONG FESTERING CONCERN THAT I HAD WITH INSTITUTIONAL CHRISTIANITY IN THIS COUNTRY.

EVEN AS I HAVE REMAINED A COMMITTED CHRISTIAN, A COMMITTED FOLLOWER OF JESUS, ACKNOWLEDGING AT THE SAME TIME THAT AT AN ORGANIZATIONAL LEVEL, THERE IS SOMETHING TROUBLING, DEEPLY TROUBLING ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO CHRISTIANITY IN THIS COUNTRY.

I THINK ULTIMATELY, IT REQUIRED SOMETHING LIKE THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY, LIKE COVID-19, LIKE THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD AND THE SUMMER OF RACIAL UNREST WE WENT THROUGH IN AMERICA TO REALLY RIP THE BAND-AID OFF AND EXPOSE THESE SCHISMS IN THE CHURCH.

AND TO YOUR QUESTION, CHRISTIANE, THOSE SCHISMS ARE DEEPER THAN EVER.

TO BE CLEAR, YES, TRUMP DOES HAVE THE UNLYNCHING LOYALTY AND SUPPORT OF TENS OF MILLIONS OF WHITE EVANGELICALS IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT THERE ARE MANY, MANY WHITE EVANGELICALS IN THIS COUNTRY AND MANY MILLIONS WHO ARE COMPLETELY TERRIFIED OF WHAT A TRUMP REELECTION WOULD MEAN, PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM ONCE, MAYBE EVEN VOTED FOR HIM TWICE, BUT WHO NOW IN THE AFTERMATH OF JANUARY 6th AND IN LIGHT OF THE RHETORIC HE IS USING, THEY WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH DONALD TRUMP.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, THEY'RE NOT SURE THEY COULD VOTE FOR JOE BIDEN EITHER BECAUSE OF THEIR PERSONAL MORAL CONVICTIONS ON ABORTION AND OTHER ISSUES.

SO THERE IS A REALLY FASCINATING PUZZLE TO BE PUT TOGETHER HERE AS WE HEAD TOWARD THE 2024 ELECTION.

WHAT DO SOME OF THESE VOTERS DO WHO NOW FEEL COMPLETELY HOMELESS POLITICALLY.

WILL THEY SIT OUT THE ELECTION?

WILL THEY VOTE FOR A THIRD PARTY?

CAN TRUMP POSSIBLY CONVINCE SOME OF THEM TO COME BACK INTO THE FOLD?

THERE IS REALLY NO TELLING EXACTLY HOW THIS MIGHT PLAY OUT.

BUT IT REALLY IS UNPRECEDENTED, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE THIS IS THE FIRST POST ROE V. WADE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WE'VE HAD IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND MANY MILLIONS OF VOTERS WHO WERE MOBILIZED AROUND THAT SINGLE ISSUE OF ABORTION AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, THEY NOW HAVE REASON TO SAY, WELL, MAYBE I DON'T NEED TO VOTE IN THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

>> AND FINAL QUESTION.

BECAUSE IT'S JUST SO COUNTERINTUITIVE.

MIKE PENCE WAS TRUMP'S VICE PRESIDENT.

HE WAS A VERY AND IS A VERY RELIGIOUS CHRISTIAN.

AND YET IN THE INSURRECTION, WHEN HE DID THE RIGHT THING AND WOULDN'T OVERTURN THE ELECTION, PEOPLE STARTED CALLING TO HANG MIKE PENCE.

DO THE EVANGELICALS NOT KIND OF GET IT?

WHAT DO THEY THINK WHEN THEY HEAR THAT HANG MIKE PENCE, ONE OF THEIR OWN?

>> WELL, IT'S INTERESTING, CHRISTIANE.

IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME DESCRIBING THE EXTERNAL THREAT TO CHRISTIANITY IN AMERICA AS THEY PERCEIVE IT, RIGHT.

SO FROM THE SECULAR CULTURE, FROM THE SECULAR MEDIA, FROM THE SECULAR GOVERNMENT, FROM THE DEEP STATE, ALL OF THESE INTEREST EXTERNALIZED THREATS THAT MANY EVANGELICALS ARE WORRIED ABOUT.

BUT THERE IS ALSO AN INTERNAL THREAT AS THEY SEE IT.

AND THAT INTERNAL THREAT IS PEOPLE WHO ARE UNWILLING TO RECOGNIZE THE APOCALYPTIC STAKES HERE, PEOPLE WHO ARE UNWILLING TO REALIZE THAT CHRISTIAN AMERICA IS ON ITS KNEES, AND THAT ITS LAST DAYS ARE HERE UNLESS WE FIGHT BACK.

PEOPLE LIKE MIKE PENCE, PEOPLE WHO IN HIS CASE WERE UNWILLING TO CAST ASIDE THE CONSTITUTION IN ORDER TO KEEP DONALD TRUMP IN OFFICE.

THAT MAKES HIM A COWARD.

THAT MAKES HIM WEAK.

THAT MAKES HIM NOT A CHRISTIAN IN THE EYES OF MANY OF THESE FOLKS.

AND I DON'T THINK WE'VE BEGUN, CHRISTIANE, TO FULLY GRAPPLE WITH THAT SORT OF PURGE NOW HAPPENING INSIDE THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH WHERE PEOPLE WHO ADHERE TO ALL OF THE CONSERVATIVE THEOLOGY, ALL THE CONSERVATIVE BIBLICAL DOCTRINE, PEOPLE WHO THEMSELVES ARE POLITICALLY AND CULTURALLY STILL QUITE CONSERVATIVE AND YET THEY'RE NOT RADICAL ENOUGH TO REMAIN A PART OF THIS EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT THAT THEY HAVE CALLED HOME FOR SO LONG, THAT IS THE GREAT INTERNAL DIVIDE NOW HAPPENING INSIDE THE CHURCH THAT I HAVE ATTEMPTED TO ADDRESS IN THIS BOOK.

>> IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY READ.

TIM ALBERTA, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

YOU CERTAINLY ARE GRAPPLING WITH IT FOR US ALL.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO GAZA, WHICH U.N. OFFICIALS DESCRIBE AS INCREASINGLY APOCALYPTIC WITH NO SAFE PLACE TO GO AND MORE THAN 80% OF THE POPULATION DISPLACED AS ISRAEL EXPANDS ITS GROUND OPERATIONS IN THE SOUTH.

CORRESPONDENT BEN WEDEMAN JOINS US NOW FROM JERUSALEM.

BEN, TELL ME FROM THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY, NOT BEING IN GAZA, WHAT'S GOING ON FOR THE ACTUAL PEOPLE THERE WHO ARE BEING ORDERED AGAIN FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME TO MOVE AND EVACUATE AND FIND SOME SAFE SPACE.

>> WELL, WHAT WE'RE SEEING, CHRISTIANE, IS THAT THEY ARE LIVING IN HORRENDOUS CONDITIONS, AND THE WEATHER HAS BEEN VERY RAINY AND COLD TODAY HERE IN JERUSALEM AND ALSO DOWN IN GAZA WITH THE WEATHER FORECAST DOCUMENT POSSIBLE FLASH FLOODS IN GAZA.

WHAT YOU HAVE IS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE MORE THAN ONCE HAD TO MOVE, BUT NOW THEY'RE MOVING TO AREAS WHERE THEY'VE BASICALLY BEEN PUTTING UP TENTS WITH THIN PLASTIC SHEETING BEING THE ONLY PROTECTION FROM THE ELEMENTS IN THESE MAKESHIFT CAMPS WHERE THERE IS NO RUNNING WATER, THERE IS NO ELECTRICITY, THERE IS NO SANITATION, THERE IS NO TOILETS.

AND THEY'VE SIMPLY HAD TO GO THERE BECAUSE PLACES LIKE KHAN YUNIS ARE NOW AN ACTIVE BATTLE ZONE, AND IT'S JUST NOT SAFE.

SO THEY'VE GONE TO THESE PLACES, BUT ALREADY WE SAW, FOR INSTANCE, IN THOSE U.N. SCHOOLS THAT HAD BEEN CONVERTED INTO SHELTERS THAT THERE IS A RISING INCIDENTS, FOR INSTANCE, OF INTESTINAL DISEASES, DIARRHEA, SKIN DISEASES, HEPATITIS C IS SPREADING AMONG THESE PEOPLE, AND NOW THEY'RE EXPOSED TO THE ELEMENTS.

AND OF COURSE WE KNOW THAT WHEN YOU'RE NOT EATING WELL, WHEN YOU'RE EXPOSED TO THE ELEMENTS, YOUR IMMUNITY DROPS, AND THEREFORE THIS INCREASES YET MORE OF THE DANGER OF DISEASE.

AND WE'VE HEARD THE HEAD OF THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION EXPRESSING THE CONCERN THAT PERHAPS AS THE SITUATION, THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION CONTINUES TO DETERIORATE, THERE IS A VERY REAL THREAT THAT MORE PEOPLE COULD DIE FROM DISEASE THAN FROM THE BOMBING.

CHRISTIANE?

>> AND HONESTLY, ON THE BASIC LEVEL OF FOOD, WE HAVE SEEN AWFUL PICTURES.

YOU'VE INCLUDED THEM, THE BOMBINGS, PEOPLE JUST BEING REPORTED AS SCRABBLING THROUGH THE RUBBLE TO TRY TO FIND SOMETHING TO EAT, BECAUSE THE RELIEF EFFORT IS VERY CHOPPY.

>> VERY CHOPPY INDEED.

I THINK TODAY PERHAPS MAYBE 50 TRUCKS GOT IN.

BUT EVERY DAY IT'S A STRUGGLE.

AND WE WERE SPEAKING WITH A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE WORLD FOOD PROGRAM IN CAIRO, BECAUSE MUCH OF IT, THE FOOD AID COMES THROUGH CAIRO.

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO SEND IN ANY TRUCKS SINCE THE END OF THE TRUCE ON FRIDAY MORNING.

SO FOOD IS RUNNING SHORT.

I MEAN, SOME PEOPLE WE'VE SEEN ARE BASICALLY EATING DRY, STALE BREAD THAT IN THE PAST WAS FED TO LIVESTOCK.

BUT NOW PEOPLE ACTUALLY HAVE TO EAT IT.

AND ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE, YOU HAVE THE SPECTER OF FAMINE, WHICH AT THE MOMENT IT DOESN'T APPEAR ANYBODY IS DYING OF HUNGER, BUT CERTAINLY MALNUTRITION COULD BECOME A PROBLEM IN THE NEAR FUTURE IF AID DOES NOT GET IN.

THE STORES ARE EMPTY FOR THE MOST PART.

THERE ARE SOME VEGETABLES AND FRUIT AVAILABLE ON THE MARKET, BUT SORT OF THE GROCERIES THAT YOU WOULD BUY LIKE RICE, SUGAR, COOKING OIL ARE IN DESPERATELY SHORT SUPPLY.

CHRISTIANE?

>> BEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM JERUSALEM WITH THAT INFORMATION.

AND MEANTIME, ISRAEL'S MILITARY INTELLIGENCE HAS BEEN UNDER SCRUTINY AFTER A "NEW YORK TIMES" REVEALED THEY HAD SEEN A HAMAS BATTLE PLAN OVER A YEAR IN ADVANCE.

RONAN BERGMAN BROKE THAT STORY FOR "THE TIMES" AND JOINS ME NOW FROM TEL AVIV.

RONAN, I WANT TO GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT.

BUT THE MOST URGENT MATTER I THINK IS FOR YOU TO DESCRIBE TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS EXPANDED PHASE, WHO ARE THEY GOING AFTER, WHAT ARE THE TARGETS?

WE HEAR, YOU KNOW, THE LEADERS TALKING ABOUT GOING AFTER PEOPLE LIKE THE NOTORIOUS YAHYA SINWAR, THE PRESUMED RINGLEADER AND MASTERMIND OF OCTOBER 7th.

>> YEAH.

SO FROM THE ISRAELI POINT OF VIEW, THIS IS AN ADVANCED STAGE OF THE LAST PHASE OF A CONQUERING GAZA STRIP, TAKING CONTROL OVER THE GAZA STRIP.

THIS IS NOT YET WHAT THEY BELIEVE TO BE THE PRIME GOAL, WHICH IS DISMANTLING HAMAS AND FREEING THE HOSTAGES, BUT IT'S SEIZING TOTAL CONTROL OVER THE ABOVE-GROUND HEMISPHERE OF THE STRIP.

THE ISRAELI FORCES ENTERED THE SOUTHERN STRIP.

THEY ARE IN MIDDLE OF FIERCE FIGHTING INSIDE KHAN YUNIS, WHICH IS THE CITY FROM WHERE YOU CAN CONSIDER THE LEAD OF HAMAS AND THE MILITARY COMMANDER OF HAMAS CAME FROM.

THIS IS WHERE THEY ARE BELIEVED TO BE.

THIS IS WHERE MOST OF THE HOSTAGES ARE BELIEVED TO BE KEPT.

AND THIS IS THE -- FROM THE ISRAELI POINT OF VIEW, I BELIEVE FROM THE HAMAS POINT OF VIEW, THIS IS THE LAST -- THE LAST BATTLE.

ISRAELIS THAT WERE LOOKING FOR.

THE NUMBER THREE IN HAMAS AND THE BROTHER OF THE LEADER OF HAMAS.

>> I WANT TO GO STRAIGHT NOW TO YOUR EXCLUSIVE REPORTING ABOUT THE HAVING SEEN A PLAN.

TALK TO US ABOUT HOW DETAILED THE PLAN WAS, WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN INFERRED FROM IT, WHY WASN'T IT TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

>> SO THIS STORY WITH MY GREG COLLEAGUE ALEC BALDWIN WAS ABOUT THE PLAN.

THE PLAN WAS THE LAST STAGE, THE LAST VERSION OF AN ONGOING DEVELOPING PLAN SINCE 2012.

THE GOALS REMAIN THE SAME.

BREAKING THE FRONT, RAIDING THE GAZA DIVISION CAMP, DESTROYING OR ELIMINATING THE WHOLE OF THE GAZA DIVISION, AND THEN SENDING FORCES ALL OVER THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE OF ISRAEL, COMMUNITIES, VILLAGE, KIBBUTZIM, ARMY CAMPS TO START THE MASSIVE MASSACRE.

NOW IT DEVELOPED, AND THE LAST VERSION, THE LAST UPDATED VERSION THAT THE MILITARY INTELLIGENCE, THE ISRAELI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE WAS ABLE TO OBTAIN MORE THAN A YEAR AGO DURING 2022 IS THE 40 PAGES PLAN STARTING WITH THE PHRASE FROM THE KORAN, BASICALLY I'M TRANSLATING ROUGHLY FROM ARABIC.

WHOEVER COMES TO THIS GATE SURPRISINGLY WILL BE BLESSED BY ALLAH.

THE GATE OF COURSE IS THE FENCE, THE PHYSICAL MASSIVE SUBTERRAIN AND ABOVE TERRAIN THAT ISRAEL ADOPTED.

WHEN YOU READ THIS, THE FIRST THING YOU FEEL IS SHOCK.

40 PAGES WITH THE MOST DETAILED SPECIFIED INTELLIGENCE ON HOW THE FORTIFICATION OF THAT BORDER, WHERE ARE THE SELF TOWERS?

WHERE ARE THE COMMUNITY HUBS?

WHERE IS THE BASE WHERE THEY HAVE THE SCOUTS THAT ARE OPERATING THE AUTOMATIC REMOTE CONTROLLED MACHINE GUNS?

THEY ARE -- THEY HAVE SUCH A PRECISE INTELLIGENCE, THAT ONE STARTS TO DOUBT IF THIS IS ALL COMING FROM OPEN SOURCES OR COMMERCIAL SATELLITE, OR EVEN SOMEONE THAT GOT THE PERMIT TO WORK IN ISRAEL AND WORKED AS A GARDNER IN ONE OF THE KIBBUTZIM AND WAS RECRUITED BY HAMAS.

IT CANNOT COME FROM THERE.

I'M SURE IN INTELLIGENCE THE ISRAELI PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR THIS SORT OF LEAK.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST THE INTELLIGENCE.

IT'S THE WAY THEY TRANSLATE HAMAS OPERATIONAL MILITARY WING, THE WAY THEY TRANSLATE THAT INTO A MASSIVE ATTACK -- IT'S NOT EVEN A RAID.

IT'S AN INVASION.

THE PLAN IS ABOUT 60 DIFFERENT POINTS IN WHICH THEY BREAK THE WALL AND STORM THROUGH SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH A MASSIVE BOMBARDMENT OF ISRAEL AS THE DECOY, AS THE DIVERSION OF ATTENTION WITH MISSILES AND DRONES AND OTHERS.

DOING EVERYTHING THE SAME TIME, ENABLING HUNDREDS OF TEAMS TO FLOOD INTO ISRAEL, START THE MASSIVE KILLING AND THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAELI CITIZEN.

>> WHY, WHY THEN DID IT NOT GET TAKEN SERIOUSLY?

OR DID IT?

WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS PLAN THAT WE'RE SEEING?

>> SO AT FIRST THIS IS A MAJOR ACHIEVEMENT FOR ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE TO GET THIS POINT.

AND OF COURSE THE IMPORTANT POINT WITH THE PLAN IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th IS THE EXACT EXECUTION OF THAT PLAN.

NOW WHY DIDN'T ISRAEL ACTED UPON THAT?

BECAUSE -- AND IT WAS SENT AND SHARED WITH MANY SENIORS AND SENIOR MILITARY ANALYSTS EXPERT WITH HAMAS, ALL OF THEM BUT ONE SAW THIS PLAN AS, QUOTE, A COMPASS FOR THE BUILDING OF THE FORCE.

SO NOT THE REFLECTION OF HAMAS STATUS.

HAMAS CAPABILITIES, HAMAS COMPETENCE, BUT WHERE HAMAS WANTS TO BE.

NOT WHAT HAMAS CAN DO NOW, BUT WHAT HAMAS WANTS TO DO WHERE THIS PLAN IS ABOUT 2,000 COMMANDOS CROSSING INTO ISRAEL, BREAKING THE FENCE.

ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE BELIEVE THEY CAN SEND ONLY TWO PLATOONS AT MOST WITH 17 COMMANDOS.

SO 70 TO A THOUSAND.

>> ROMAN -- >> AGAIN TELLS THE STORY OF THE STRATEGY.

>> YOU SAID ONLY ONE PERSON FIGURED OUT THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT, AND THIS WAS A WOMAN, I UNDERSTAND, A KEY FEMALE INTELLIGENCE OFFICER.

>> YES.

>> AND SHE WAS ESSENTIALLY DISMISSED BY HER, YOU KNOW, HER MALE COLLEAGUES.

I'M NOT PUTTING A GENDER THING IN HERE, BUT I'M JUST SAYING IT, BECAUSE THAT'S PART OF YOUR STORY.

AND IT MAY ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, IT MAY ACTUALLY BE A CRITICAL OMISSION THERE.

SO THE QUESTION NOW IS THIS THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TAKEN RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS MASSIVE INTELLIGENCE FAILURE, BEFORE WE EVEN KNEW ABOUT THIS PLAN.

BUT IT DOESN'T -- OR DOES IT?

WHAT IS THE BLOWBACK AGAINST NETANYAHU?

DO YOU THINK HE CAN SURVIVE THIS?

>> I THINK THAT ANY BIT OF THE POLITICAL HORIZON FOR NETANYAHU IS A VERY RISKY THING.

I THINK THAT THE CHANCES THAT THIS IS THE LAST PHASE OF HIS POLITICAL CAREER ARE GETTING HIGHER.

HAVING MASS PERCENTAGE OF THE PEOPLE BLAMING NETANYAHU.

SOME OF THEM NETANYAHU ALONE IN WHAT HAPPENED.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, NETANYAHU AND HIS COLLEAGUES AND HIS MASSIVE PROPAGANDA MACHINE ARE RUNNING AN ATTACK, TRYING TO SMEAR THE LEADERS OF THE MILITARY, THE INTELLIGENCE.

THIS IS WHY THOSE PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING, RUNNING THE WAR, SMEAR THEM WITH ALL SORTS OF ACCUSATIONS, FORGETTING TO MENTION WHAT MARK MAZETTI AND I PUBLISHED A MONTH AGO THAT NETANYAHU RECEIVED MANY VERBAL WARNINGS AND FOUR DIFFERENT LETTERS DURING THE PAST YEAR, SAYING TO HIM THE ENMEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE ISRAEL, THE SO-CALLED AXIS OF RESISTANCE, HAMAS, ISLAMIC JIHAD AND OTHERS, THEY SEE ISRAEL AS WEAK BECAUSE OF THE POLITICAL CRISIS THAT STARTED BECAUSE OF THE JUDICIAL OVERALL THAT NETANYAHU WAS IGNITING.

THEY SAID TO THE PRIME MINISTER IF YOU CONTINUE WITH THIS, THEY MIGHT ATTACK ISRAEL BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL IS WEAK WITH THE DISASSEMBLEMENT OF THE RESERVE MILITARY.

AND NETANYAHU, NOT JUST THAT HE DISREGARD THAT, AND NOT JUST THAT HE SOMETIMES DIDN'T EVEN REFUSE TO SEE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ABLE -- LIKE NOT ENABLING THEM TO GIVE THE WARNING, HE CONTINUED THE JUDICIAL OVERALL PROCESS WITH A TOTAL NONCHALANT TO ANY OF THOSE WARNINGS.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I DID PUT THAT MARK REGEV, BECAUSE I HAD READ THAT STORY A FEW WEEKS AGO, AND I PUT IT TO HIS MAIN SPOKESMAN AND ADVISER, AND HE SAID HE WOULD, A, GET BACK TO ME, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, THIS WOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF AFTER THE WAR.

SO I DIDN'T GET AN ANSWER TO THAT.

BUT WHEN IS THE END OF THE WAR.

WE'VE HEARD POTENTIALLY DIGGING IN FOR A YEAR.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING?

HOW LONG CAN THEY KEEP THIS UP?

>> IF I WAS TRYING TO BE SOPHISTICATED AND I ASK YOU, CHRISTIANE, HOW DO YOU DEFINE THE WAR, I THINK THIS IS A TIMETABLE THAT MAYBE NETANYAHU AND SOME OF HIS POLITICAL COUNTERPARTS THAT UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR CHANCES TO BE REELECTED ARE VERY SLIM, THEY WOULD BE MAYBE HAPPY TO HAVE A VERY LONG WAR BECAUSE THE NOTION IN ISRAEL, THE MINE SAID IS FIRST YOU FIGHT, YOU WIN, AND YOU INVESTIGATE.

AS THE SORT OF COMMENT YOU GOT FROM MARK REGEV.

BUT AS LONG AS THEY'RE FIGHTING, PEOPLE DON'T START TO DEMONSTRATE AGAIN.

PEOPLE DO NOT DEMAND THE IMMEDIATE RESIGNATION OF NETANYAHU.

THEY INQUIRE THE INVESTIGATION DON'T START.

I BELIEVE THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT ONE WAR.

IN REALITY, SENIORS IN THE ISRAELI MILITARY UNDERSTAND THAT MAYBE FOR THIS PHASE OF THE WAR SO, AN ONGOING GROUND OPERATION AND GROUND CONTROLLING OF THE STRIP WHEN THEY CONQUER KHAN YUNIS, THEY BELIEVE THAT THE U.S. WOULD NOT GIVE ISRAEL MORE THAN A MONTH.

THEY ARE SPEAKING OF ONE YEAR TO TAKE ALL THE SUBTERRAIN SPAGHETTI.

BUT REALISTICALLY, THE ASSESSMENT IS THAT THEY HAVE A VERY, VERY SHORT TIME TO FINISH WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO TO DISMANTLE HAMAS, AND THEN BE UNDER SEVERE U.S. PRESSURE TO WITHDRAW.

>> CAN I ASK YOU FINALLY, THE HORROR OF OCTOBER 7th, 1,200 ISRAELIS SLAUGHTERED, MANY, 250 NOW, NOW THEY SAY 138 HOSTAGES REMAINING IN GAZA.

THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO GET THEM BACK AS WELL.

BUT WE ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THE SENIOR MILITARY HAVE SAID TO AT LEAST AFP, AND I'VE HEARD THIS REPORTED, THAT SOME 5,000 MILITANT, AND THIS WAS BEFORE THE CEASEFIRE, HAD BEEN KILLED.

SO THAT LEAVES ABOUT 11,000 OR SO, YOU KNOW, THE DEFICIT IS 11,000.

AND WE UNDERSTOOD THAT THE MILITARY IS SAYING, YOU KNOW, IT'S PRETTY MUCH TWO CIVILIANS KILLED FOR EVERY HAMAS MILITANT KILLED.

WHAT DO THE ISRAELI PEOPLE SEE OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN GAZA?

ARE THEY AWARE?

IS IT ON THE FRONT PAGES?

IS IT ON THE TELEVISION LIKE IT IS ALL OVER THE REST OF THE WORLD, THE CHILDREN, THE WOMEN, THE CIVILIANS?

>> WELL, IT IS TO SOME EXTENT.

BURY FAR BEING VERY CANDID HERE, FAR FROM THE PLACE, THE REAL ESTATE IT GETS ON THE FRONT PAGES OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL MEDIA OUTLET, AS IT SHOULD.

I THINK THAT WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7 DID TO THE ISRAELIS WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS CAUTIONING THEM FROM DOING, BLINDED THEM WITH RAGE.

THEY -- THEY BELIEVED THAT WHAT HAPPENED, MANY ISRAELIS BELIEVED WHAT HAPPENED, IT'S TO BE ANSWERED WITH FIERCE FORCE, THAT IT CANNOT BE DONE, AND THIS IS ABOUT THE TIMELINE, THE IDEA HE IS TRYING TO MAKE FOR FINISHING THE OPERATION, IT CANNOT BE DONE UNTIL THEY DISMANTLE HAMAS.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT REVENGE.

IT'S ABOUT REVENGE AS WELL WHEN YOU TAKE REVENGE YOU DON'T THINK ABOUT THE OTHER.

BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT MAKING A POINT THAT WOULD DETER OTHER ISRAELI ENEMIES.

>> RIGHT.

>> A LONG WAY TO SAY I THINK ISRAELIS ARE MAYBE MAINLY PREOCCUPIED WITH THEIR WOUNDS AND HAVE VERY LITTLE BANDWIDTHS TO THINK ABOUT THE WOUNDS OF OTHERS.

>> RONAN BERGMAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> TURNING NOW TO A PROBLEM THAT THE UNITED STATES AND COMMUNITIES AROUND THE WORLD HAVE LONG STRUGGLED WITH, AND THAT IS HOMELESSNESS.

BUT ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST, THE CITY OF HOUSTON MAY HAVE A SOLUTION.

NICHOLAS KRISTOF IS AN OPINION COLUMNIST FOR T"THE NEW YORK TI TIMES".

FOR HIS LATEST PIECE HE VISITED HOUSTON AND DALLAS TO DISCUSS HOW BOTH ARE ADDRESSING THE ISSUE AS WE GO TO HARRY SRINIVASAN.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

NICK, YOUR RECENT REPORTING FOR "NEW YORK TIMES," AN OP-ED CONTRIBUTION IS LOOKING AT HOMELESS.

THE INTERESTING THING TO ME IS MOST OF THE NEWS AROUND HOMELESSNESS TODAY IS PRETTY HOPELESS.

AND I WANT TO FIRST START OFF WITH ASKING YOU WHY YOU CHOSE TO FOCUS ON THESE TWO CITIES IN TEXAS.

>> WELL, I'M ON THE WEST COAST, AND FRANKLY, UP AND DOWN THE WEST COAST IN THE CITIES, IT REALLY DOES FEEL PRETTY DESPAIRING.

AND I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT DALLAS AND HOUSTON WERE A GREAT MICROCOSM OF WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T WORK.

DALLAS AND HOUSTON ARE BOTH BLUE CITIES.

THEY BOTH CARED ABOUT HOMELESS.

THEY BOTH HAD HOMELESSNESS PROBLEMS, AND BOTH TRIED TO ADDRESS IT QUITE SERIOUSLY.

AND THE UPSHOT WAS IN DALLAS, THE PROBLEM GOT WORSE.

AND IN HOUSTON, THEY MANAGED TO REDUCE HOMELESSNESS BY MORE THAN 60% SINCE 2011.

AND SO I THOUGHT, LOOK, MOST OF THE COUNTRY IS DALLAS.

BUT HOUSTON HAS FIGURED OUT HOW TO MAKE PROGRESS.

WE SHOULD LEARN FROM IT.

SO I WENT TO THE TWO CITIES AND TRIED TO LEARN SOMETHING.

>> YEAH, LET'S LOOK AT THE POSITIVE FIRST.

WHAT WAS OR WHAT IS HOUSTON DOING RIGHT TO DROP THEIR HOMELESS NUMBERS SO SIGNIFICANTLY?

>> SO THERE IS NO SECRET SAUCE AND HOUSTON STILL HAS A HOMELESSNESS PROBLEM.

THEY'VE DONE BETTER THAN OTHERS, BUT IT'S NOT PERFECT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THEY DID A FEW THINGS REALLY WELL.

THEY HAD REALLY STRONG POLITICAL LEADERSHIP.

THEY HAVE A STRONG MAYOR SYSTEM.

AND THAT MAYOR USED THOSE POWERS MAYBE ABOVE ALL TO HERD THE NONPROFITS WHO WERE IN THIS AREA, TO HERD THEM SO THEY'RE ALL PULLING IN THE SAME DIRECTION, SO THAT THEY COORDINATE THEIR EFFORTS.

IN A LOT OF CITIES, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT OUTREACH ORGANIZATIONS WILL REACH ONE HOMELESS PERSON FIVE TIMES AND WON'T REACH ANOTHER AT ALL.

IN HOUSTON, THEY WERE VERY, VERY GOOD ABOUT COORDINATING AND ABOUT EXECUTION.

THEY ALSO DID I THINK A -- THE BACKDROP IS THAT IN HOUSTON, IT'S CHEAP AND EASY TO BUILD HOUSING.

AND SO IN HOUSTON, YOU CAN BUILD A ONE BEDROOM APARTMENT FOR SAY $200,000.

MEANWHILE, IN SAN FRANCISCO, IT HAS COST IN SOME CASES MORE THAN A MILLION DOLLARS TO PROVIDE A SINGLE HOUSING UNIT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS.

AND I GUESS FINELY, IN HOUSTON, THEY REALLY FOCUS NOT JUST ON GENERAL HELP FOR PEOPLE WHO WERE ON THE STREETS, LIKE GIVING OUT JACKETS OR COUNSELING, BUT ABOVE ALL, JUST RELENTLESSLY ON MOVING PEOPLE INTO HOUSING AND THEN ON KEEPING THEM THERE.

>> YOU KNOW, WE HEAR ON TIMES YOU WALKING AROUND, WATCHING SOMEONE THAT'S ON THE STREETS GET INTERVIEWED.

WHAT WAS -- WHAT WORKED IN THAT, COMPARED TO HOW DIFFERENT NONPROFITS ARE TRYING TO DO INTAKE IN DIFFERENT CITIES?

>> SO IN A LOT OF CITIES THAT INTAKE PROCESS IS NOT COORDINATED.

IN CONTRAST IN HOUSTON, THERE IS A CENTRAL DATABASE.

SO ALL THE NONPROFITS, THERE ARE ABOUT 100 NONPROFITS IN HOUSTON THAT WORK WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS.

SO THEY ALL WORK ON A CENTRAL DATABASE.

THAT PERSON IS ENTERED INTO THE SYSTEM.

EVERYBODY ELSE KNOWS THAT THEY ARE IN THERE, WHAT THEY HAVE, WHAT THEY NEED.

AND THEN THIS INTAKE PROCESS WAS JUST SO MUCH FOCUS ON THE BARRIERS TO HOUSING.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THIS CASE, ONE OF THE BASIC BARRIERS WAS THIS GENTLEMAN, JOE CAVASO, HE DID NOT HAVE AN ID.

THAT IS SO COMMON AMONG PEOPLE.

THEY DON'T HAVE THEIR BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

THEY DON'T HAVE A DRIVER'S LICENSE.

THEY CAN'T PROVE WHO THEY ARE.

SO EVEN IF HE HAD BEEN ABLE TO APPLY FOR A GOVERNMENT ID, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO WAY TO GET IT TO HIM THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO WAY TO TELL HIM THAT WHERE TO PICK IT UP.

AND SO HOUSTON HAS SET UP A REALLY GOOD SYSTEM TO PROVIDE THOSE GOVERNMENT IDs SO THAT PEOPLE CAN BE PUT ON A TRACK TO HOUSING.

AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE IT STARTS.

>> AND LET'S JUXTAPOSE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN HOUSTON FROM A CITY JUST A FEW HOURS' DRIVE AWAY IN DALLAS.

WHAT IS DALLAS EMBLEMATIC OF IN HOW THAT CITY DEALS WITH HOMELESSNESS COMPARED TO SO MANY OTHER CITIES IN AMERICA?

>> SO IN DALLAS, THE TRADITIONAL EFFORTS WERE VERY UNCOORDINATED.

THEY WERE VERY WELL MEANING, AND THEY DID SOME THINGS REALLY WELL.

BUT IT WASN'T COORDINATED.

IT'S A WEAKER MAYOR SYSTEM.

IT'S EXECUTION, JUST DID NOT WORK.

AND I GUESS REALLY WHAT STRUCK ME WAS THAT WHILE DALLAS WAS FULL OF COMPASSION, AND FULL OF GOOD INTENTIONS, GOOD INTENTIONS ARE NOT ENOUGH.

AND IT'S ABOUT EVIDENCE-BASED POLICY AND EXECUTION.

IN THE EARLY 2,000S, ONE CITY AFTER ANOTHER AROUND THE COUNTRY INTRODUCED TEN-YEAR PLANS TO ELIMINATE HOMELESSNESS.

LOOKING BACK, THOSE TEN-YEAR PLANS WERE REALLY JUST SYMBOLIC.

THEY REALLY DIDN'T ACHIEVE ANYTHING.

AND I THINK AROUND THE COUNTRY AND IN DALLAS, THERE WERE A LOT OF THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS, A LOT OF TALK ABOUT HOW HOUSING IS A HUMAN RIGHT, BUT NONE OF THAT ACTUALLY GOT PEOPLE INTO HOUSING THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF A POSTSCRIPT.

THE FOLKS IN DALLAS WHEN I WAS ASKING ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS KIND OF A PRICKLY CONVERSATION TO BE THE CONTRAST TO HOUSTON.

BUT A FEW YEARS AGO, DALLAS REALLY GOT FED UP WITH THE HOMELESSNESS.

THEY SAW HOUSTON'S SUCCESS.

THEY BEGAN TO COPY THE MODEL.

SO AS A RESULT NOW, THE LAST TWO YEARS DALLAS HAS MADE REAL PROGRESS AGAINST THE HOMELESS USING THAT HOUSTON MODEL.

>> NOW DALLAS IS REALLY EXCITED THAT THEY'VE TURNED THE CORNER, THAT NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE HOMELESS IN DALLAS ARE GOING DOWN.

AND SO THEY'RE KIND OF EXCITED THAT NOW THEY'VE GOT IT RIGHT AND ARE QUITE FULL OF OPTIMISM.

HOUSTON, ON THE OTHER HAND, WHILE IT HAS BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL, I THINK FACES SOME REAL CHALLENGES.

HOUSTON HAS DONE THIS ON THE CHEAP, WHICH IS IMPRESSIVE THAT THEY HAVEN'T SPENT THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT THE WEST COAST CITIES HAVE.

BUT HOUSTON HAS ESSENTIALLY USED FEDERAL MONEY, TYPICALLY COVID MONEY.

AND THAT IS NOW RUNNING OUT.

AND SO THE CHALLENGE WILL BE WILL -- HOUSTON HAS DEVELOPED A MODEL THAT WORKS.

BUT WILL IT BE WILLING TO FUND THE MODEL WITH ITS OWN MONEY RATHER THAN JUST FEDERAL MONEY COMING IN.

AND THAT IS UNCLEAR.

I THINK THERE IS SOME REAL ANXIETY AMONG HOUSTON CIVIC LEADERS ABOUT WHETHER THEY CAN SUSTAIN THE MOMENTUM WHEN THEY'RE FORCED TO RELY ON THEIR OWN RESOURCE.

>> SO ZOOM OUT FROM THESE TWO CITIES FOR A LITTLE BIT.

HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THE PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> SO IT'S AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM.

ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT, ABOUT 580,000 PEOPLE ARE HOMELESS, AND THAT'S ON ANY ONE NIGHT.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS MUCH GREATER BECAUSE PEOPLE CYCLE IN AND OUT OF HOMELESSNESS.

AND, YOU KNOW, FOR A WHILE THEY'RE ON SOMEBODY'S COUCH.

AND THEN THEY FIND A PLACE, AND THEN THEY'RE IN THE CAR, AND THEN THEY'RE IN A SHELTER.

AND THEN THEY GET A PLACE.

AND IT'S -- WE ONLY TEND TO SEE THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG THAT IS REPRESENTATIVE BY PEOPLE WHO ARE UNSHELTERED AND ACTUALLY OUT ON THE STREET.

THERE IS AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO ARE AND ESPECIALLY KIDS, INCLUDING THOSE WHO GO TO SCHOOL WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, DOUBLED UP ON COUCHES IN A NEIGHBOR'S PLACE, WHO ARE IN VEHICLES, THIS KIND OF THING.

AND I ESPECIALLY WORRY ABOUT THE IMPACT ON KIDS, KIDS WHO ARE GROWING UP.

HOW CAN YOU CONCENTRATE IN SCHOOL WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE A HOME?

>> WHAT ARE SOME OF THE PRIMARY REASONS THAT PEOPLE SLIP INTO HOMELESSNESS?

IS IT MEDICAL DEBT?

IS IT A DIVORCE?

WHAT KINDS OF REASONS DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU WERE WALKING AND TALKING WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ADDING HOMELESS POPULATIONS INTO HOUSTON'S DATABASE ON A DAILY BASIS?

>> SO FINANCIAL CRISIS OF SOME KIND IS VERY OFTEN WHAT TIPS PEOPLE WHO ARE VULNERABLE AND FRAGILE INTO HOMELESSNESS.

SO A HEALTH CRISIS, A MEDICAL CRISIS IS VERY OFTEN A FACTOR.

IT'S NOT JUST THE BILLS, BUT IT MAY MEAN SOMEBODY NO LONGER HAS THE ABILITY TO WORK.

WE HAVE SO MANY AMERICANS AROUND THE COUNTRY WHO ARE JUST LIVING RIGHT ON THE EDGE, PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK.

AND THE MOMENT THAT PAYCHECK DOESN'T COME IN, THEY'RE IN A CRISIS.

THEY'RE ALSO ARE AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO AFFORD $700 A MONTH, $800 A MONTH FOR RENT, BUT THEY HAVE BAD CREDIT OR THEY HAVE AN EVICTION HISTORY.

AND IF YOU HAVE AN EVICTION HISTORY IN THE LAST SEVEN YEARS, IT IS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO GET ANYBODY TO RENT TO YOU.

LIKEWISE, IF YOU HAVE A FELONY CONVICTION.

VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

AND SO ALL THOSE DIFFERENT FACTORS.

BUT, AGAIN, I THINK THERE IS A RISK OF FOLKS JUST ON THE POPULATION THAT IS HOMELESS AND NOT ON THE STRUCTURAL FACTOR OF NOT ENOUGH HOUSING.

THE METAPHOR THAT IS OFTEN USED IS MUSICAL CHAIRS.

IF YOU HAVE A GAME OF MUSICAL CHAIRS AND THERE IS ONE SEAT TOO FEW, THERE IS SOMEBODY WHO LACKS A CHAIR.

AND IN THE SAME WAY, IF WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH HOUSING, THERE ARE GOING TO BE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT OF HOUSING.

AND IN THAT SCRAMBLE IS GOING TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE LEAST COMPETENT, LEAST SKILLED, MORE DISABLED AND VERY OFTEN THAT IS PEOPLE WITH ADDICTIONS, WITH ALCOHOLISM, WITH VARIOUS OTHER ISSUES.

BUT THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IS NOT ENOUGH CHAIRS, OR NOT ENOUGH HOUSING.

>> SO I UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S LESS EXPENSIVE TO BUILD A NEW STRUCTURE IN HOUSTON.

BUT HOW MUCH DOES, FOR EXAMPLE, ZONING FACTOR INTO WHERE PEOPLE CAN GET SHELTER?

>> ZONING AND MORE BROADLY KIND OF NIMBY ISSUES, NOT IN MY BACKYARD ARE ISSUES.

I'M A LIBERAL AND I BELIEVE IN ZONING.

I'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED IN IT.

AND WHEN I WAS DRIVING INTO HOUSTON FOR THIS STORY, I SAW THIS ENDLESS URBAN SPRAWL.

AND I'M FEELING KIND OF SMUG THAT BACK IN OREGON WE DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF SPRAWL.

BUT THE UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTH IS THAT THAT LACK OF ZONING ALSO MAKES IT CHEAP AND QUICK TO BUILD.

AND IT'S ONE REASON WHY THE COST OF HOUSING IS A LOT CHEAPER IN HOUSTON THAN IT IS IN OREGON OR IN CALIFORNIA.

AND SO THERE ARE REAL TRADE-OFFS THERE THAT I THINK MY WORLD OF LIBERALS HAS TO WRESTLE WITH THAT, YOU KNOW, WE TRY TO PRESERVE NEIGHBORHOOD CHARACTER.

WE TRY TO PRESERVE WILD SPACES, AND THOSE ARE IMPORTANT GOALS.

BUT UPSHOT OF THAT, AND ALSO IT IS EFFECTIVELY THAT WE OFTEN GIVE A VETO TO NEW COMMUNITIES OVER BUILDING NEW HOUSING.

AND THAT RAISES HOUSING COSTS.

WHEN YOU HAVE HIGHER HOUSING COSTS, THEN YOU END UP WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE OFTEN HOMELESS.

WE GOT RID OF SRO HOUSING AROUND THE COUNTRY BEGINNING IN THE 1960s.

AND THAT WAS INTENDED AS A WAY OF IMPROVING NEIGHBORHOODS.

AND IN FACT, ONE OF THE UPSHOTS WAS THAT WE ENDED UP WITH MORE PEOPLE SLEEPING ON SIDEWALKS.

>> WHEN YOU SAID SROs, YOU MEAN SINGLE ROOM OCCUPANCIES?

>> YEAH.

THE PARADOX IS THAT HISTORICALLY WE HAD SOLUTIONS TO HOMELESSNESS IN THE FORM OF CHEAP HOUSING.

SO WE HAD SINGLE RESIDENCY OCCUPANCY HOTELS AND BUILDINGS THAT WERE A LITTLE LIKE A DORM.

A SMALL ROOM TO SLEEP IN AND THEN A SHARED BATHROOM, MAYBE SOME KIND OF SHARED KITCHEN FACILITY.

AND THE ONLY REAL ADVANTAGE OF THOSE IS THEY WERE CHEAP, AND THEY WEREN'T GREAT HOUSING, BUT THEY WERE SO MUCH BETTER THAN SLEEPING ON THE STREET.

AND BECAUSE THEY HAD A REPUTATION FOR BEING SEEDY, THEY WERE KIND OF ZONED OUT OF EXIST EXISTENCE IN CITY AROUND THE COUNTRY.

WE THOUGHT THAT WE WERE IMPROVING NEIGHBORHOODS.

THE UPSHOT WHEN PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO THOSE IS THEY OFTEN ENDED UP ON THE STREET.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO PROVIDE SOMETHING LIKE THOSE OLD TRADITIONAL BOARDING HOUR, ROOMING HOUSES THE WAY WE ONCE DID.

>> SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, NOT IN MY BACKYARD TENDENCY, AND SO MANY PLACES AROUND THE COUNTRY WHO WANT TO SHELTER PEOPLE, WHAT CAN THEY LEARN FROM HOUSTON OR OTHER PLACES?

>> SO I THINK THAT PART OF IT INDEED HAS TO BE TO EASE THE HOUSING SHORTAGE AND MAKE IT EASIER TO BUILD.

AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WAYS TO DO THAT.

YOU KNOW, ONE IS SIMPLY -- THERE ARE ABOUT 35 MILLION UNUSED BEDROOMS IN AMERICA.

AND IT USED TO BE COMMON IN THE UNITED STATES TO HAVE A BASEMENT FLAT THAT ONE WOULD RENT OUT OR OCCASIONALLY TO TAKE IN A BORDER.

THERE ARE A LOT OF FOUR AND FIVE-BEDROOM HOMES REFLECTING HOUSING STOCK THAT SERVED A MUCH LARGER NUCLEAR FAMILY STRUCTURE THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, HUGELY UNDERUSED.

THOSE COULD BE TURNED INTO ROOMING HOUSES WHICH USED TO BE VERY COMMON AND NOW HAVE PRETTY MUCH VANISHED.

AND I THINK THAT ALSO I'D LOVE TO SEE CITIES LIKE PORTLAND OR SAN FRANCISCO LEARN FROM HOUSTON AND HAVE THIS KIND OF COORDINATED APPROACH OF NONPROFITS TO SUPPORT, TO REACH PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, IN PORTLAND, THERE ACTUALLY WAS A SURVEY OF PEOPLE WHO WERE HOMELESS, AND TWO-THIRDS HAD NOT BEEN EVER CONTACTED BY AN OUTREACH WORKER IN WAYS THAT WOULD LEAD TO HOUSING.

AND OF THE ONE-THIRD WHO HAD BEEN CONTACTED, MOST HAD -- THERE HAD NEVER BEEN ANY FOLLOW-UP.

ONE THING THAT HOUSTON HAS DONE WITH THAT OUTREACH ALSO IS FIND -- IS TO ASK PEOPLE IS THERE ANY RELATIVE WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO HELP YOU, TO BE IN TOUCH WITH YOU, TO TAKE YOU IN, TO PROVIDE SUPPORT IF YOU'RE TRYING TO GET OFF OF DRUGS, OR IS THERE ANY SOURCE OF INCOME?

ARE YOU A VETERAN?

IS THERE ANY DISABILITY POSSIBILITIES OR INCOME STREAM YOU MIGHT BE ELIGIBLE FOR.

AND ALL OF THESE THINGS AT THE MARGIN, THEY HELP.

>> SO WHAT'S THE MOST EFFECTIVE POLICY THAT RESEARCH HAS FOUND IS DOING THE MOST TO STOP HOMELESSNESS?

IS IT AS SIMPLE AS SAYING HOUSING OR SHELTERING PEOPLE?

OR IS THERE A DIFFERENCE OR DISTINCTION BETWEEN, SAY, HOMELESS SHELTERS AND GIVING SOMEBODY AN APARTMENT, A SET OF KEYS SO THAT MEDICAL SERVICES OR SOCIAL SERVICES CAN SHOW UP AT A CENTRALIZED LOCATION?

WHAT'S WORKING?

>> SO I DO THINK THAT FUNDAMENTALLY PROVIDING MORE HOUSING, MORE CHEAP HOUSING IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR.

THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF RESEARCH THAT UNDERSCORES THAT.

FOR EXAMPLE, WEST VIRGINIA HAS AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM WITH ADDICTION.

BUT WEST VIRGINIA DOES NOT HAVE A SUBSTANTIAL HOMELESSNESS PROBLEM BECAUSE IN WEST VIRGINIA YOU CAN RENT A SMALL APARTMENT FOR $500 OR $600 A MONTH.

TRY DOING THAT IN CALIFORNIA.

AND SO I DO THINK THAT PROVIDING MORE HOUSING, LOWERING THE COSTS, THUS MAKING IT MORE ACCESSIBLE HELPS A GREAT DEAL.

I THINK WE HAVE TO TACKLE THIS ISSUE OF PEOPLE WITH BAD CREDIT OR WITH EVICTION HISTORIES.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT IF YOU -- IF YOU'RE FACING A $1,000 RENT, YOU DON'T JUST HAVE TO PAY $1,000, YOU HAVE TO ALSO PAY, YOU KNOW, A MONTH'S SECURITY DEPOSIT, FOR EXAMPLE.

YOU HAVE TO PAY VARIOUS FEES.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO PAY THAT MONTHLY RENT, BUT CAN'T AFFORD ALL THESE FEES TO GET THEM OFF THE STREET.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, OUTREACH WORK.

GOOD OUTREACH JUST MAKES SUCH A DIFFERENCE IN TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE MAKE THAT MOVE INTO HOUSING.

>> NICK KRISTOF OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES," THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, HARRY.

>>> AND FINALLY, A JOURNEY WITH TOM HANKS THAT'S A LITTLE OUT OF THIS WORLD.

HIS LATEST PROJECT IS NOT YOUR TRADITIONAL MOVIE BUT RATHER A MASSIVE IMMERSIVE DOCUMENTARY INDULGING HIS OTHER PASSION AS A SELF-DESCRIBED SPACE NUT.

IT'S CALLED "MOON WALKERS" ABOUT THE APOLLO LANDINGS AND TAKES PLACE RIGHT HERE IN LONDON.

NARRATED AND COWRITTEN BY HANKS, HE INTERVIEWS THE NEXT GENERATION OF ASTRONAUTS.

HERE IS A SNIPPET FROM OUR CONVERSATION.

>> FOR MYSELF, WHEN I WAS 13, 13 YEARS OLD, THE APOLLO MISSIONS WERE THIS EXAMPLE OF -- IT WAS AN EVOLUTIONARY PLACE IN THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF HUMANKIND, BECAUSE THE ONLY REASON TO GO TO THE MOON IS BECAUSE WE'RE HUMAN BEINGS, AND WE DESIRE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HILL.

AND THAT AFFECTED ME VERY MUCH THEN, AND I STILL CARRY IT WITH ME NOW.

BECAUSE LOOK, NOBODY GOT RICH FROM GOING TO THE MOON.

NOBODY CLAIMED TERRITORY FOR THEIR OWN.

YES, THERE IS AMERICAN FLAGS PLANTED UP THERE TO CELEBRATE THE 400,000 PEOPLE THAT MADE IT POSSIBLE.

BUT IT'S ESSENTIALLY THE STORY IF WE'RE HUMAN BEINGS, DO WE NOT HAVE TO REMAIN CURIOUS AND DO WE NOT HAVE TO STRIVE TO SEE WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT HILL?

>> AND YOU CAN SEE THAT INTERVIEW IN FULL ON TOMORROW'S SHOW.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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