House Republican Speaker Matt Hall is up next with our OTR update on how to grow jobs.

Coming up right now.

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And now this edition of Off the Record, with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome back to Off the Record, Studio C. Well the road package is out in the The Citizens Research Council says there's some loopholes in there.

Let's take a look.

The new Michigan Road Fix package projections show that revenue will grow from just over $1 billion this year to $3 billio for the roads by the year 2031.

However, this chart from the Citizens Research Council suggests there is no guarantee.

Repeat, there is no guarantee that all the dollars will be there when they are needed.

I have presented the 202 transportation funding package in the way that I think the legislature intended for it to work, bu it's not going to work that way.

It's not yet clear how it's going to work yet, bu there are some major pitfalls.

Part of the road money comes from a wholesale tax on marijuana, but that is being legally challenged by the growers.

And so there's extreme uncertainty about the revenue that will be available through the marijuana wholesale tax.

Part of the money also comes from the state's corporate income tax.

But there is a hitch.

There are two more uncertainty roads earmark will only become available after $1.25 billion is dedicated to other uses.

It's not entirely clear how much of the anticipated revenue through the corporate income tax will ultimately become available.

The research does predict, however, that revenue collected at the pump will steadily increase.

But some others argue if EVs become more popular and gas driven cars get more mileage per gallon, the gas tax over time could actually be less.

But there is good news for local governments.

Counties will get 39% of this new pie.

Municipalities 22%.

So-called driveway to highway projects.

But uncertainty over money exists there too, which is actually a big deal to road agencies.

Construction projects are planned years in advance.

it's going to cause som headaches for a lot of people.

But with all this uncertainty over money, this does have a long term impact on projects.

The researchers say.

And if you think this packag is a quick fix for your roads, think again.

There will be a few years of lag time before we start seeing real results from this funding.

Translated into system improvements.

That giant thud you heard over the corner is our guest today, who I'm sure will have something to say on this.

What?

This sort of came out of nowhere.

This analysis.

The analysis.

Sure.

But the the concerns over funding related to the road package has been well discussed since we voted on that package, a couple of weeks back now.

You know, you bring up the 24% marijuana wholesale tax that's being challenged in courts right now over a belief that the vote to impose the tax was done with not enough members of the House and Senate.

So from the jump, there's alway been concern about this money.

You know, I think even in the report, though, they did note that, you know, should it come through will be, I believe, one of like the top 15 better funded states, for roads.

So I think it's just reinforcing what we already knew, that a lot of this money is in flux.

There's a lot of question marks that are still around it.

if we're able to get it, great.

But like you pointed out, it' still a huge headache for folks who really have to count those beans, which, I mean, I would even go just a wee bit further that as this was being voted on, that there was, an asterisk in bold voice know bold face, bigger, bigger, type size that, there's a lot of, speculation around it.

And in some instances, jus it seemed like they were voting in order to say that they got something done and then sort of sweep up th ashes in the morning and infer.

So we needed something done.

Right?

I mean, we're headed towards road funding, Cliff, I will acknowledge, but I think that the question is this it?

Right, right.

And that's kind of where we're at right now.

We're walking that tightrope.

If you had a choice you would go with a solid fund that has a steady stream that is not going to have this problem.

Chuck.

Well, you're right that well, let's look for a second.

On the bright side, if you find a bright side, it's okay.

The fact that road repair.

You could serve in the legislator.

Yeah, I know road repai concern, that won't happen, but repair road repair construction will continue.

Here in Michigan, there was a chance that nothing was going to happen, or that all of a sudden you see the skids coming on.

So I'm sure that all the legislators as well as the governor as well as the speaker, will say, we are continuing to repair our roads and we got fund of money coming in.

But the CRC is a very reputable organization over 100 years old.

Eric Lupher has been in that position a long time.

He is oftentimes called it right.

And I think he's putting up two red flags saying, okay, let's not be concerne just about the amount of money coming in.

Let's be concerned about where it's going and how it's coming in.

And you're both right.

There are some big question marks out here, depending on the lawsuit with marijuana and all these other things, that this stuff could go up in flux.

Well, ultimately, if this thing, this element falls apart, they just come back and find another vehicle.

it's just as simple as that.

I mean, it's nice.

Why are you guys laughing?

Here I if, if that other vehicle existed that was more reliable than this house of cards.

Yeah, well, who knows what happens between now and then.

Okay.

It's still it's still a jum ball, but it is a question mark.

All right.

Now question.

In the governor's race, Stevie Mitchell had a poll on this which shows Miss Benso winning the Democratic primary and John Jame winning the Republican primary.

Next question.

it's an interesting potential match up here, between two attractive candidates two well-known candidates here.

One, you know congressman, from Macomb County.

And then, of course, Miss Benson, who's, you know, been the secretary of state.

So she's all well known all across the state.

And then, of course, you have Mike Duggan sitting out there testing the independents.

They came in and I think, what, 18% in that poll, the race with him doesn't really begin until after the primary when the general comes in.

That's because he doesn't hav that opposition in the primary.

Even though he's going to be running hard, he's running already.

No no no no no he's he's running hard.

He's he's out there.

He's got billboards all over the state right now.

But it is an interesting matchup.

perhaps one of the most interesting things is Garland Gilchrist.

Just kind of falls into that 12% I think was the matchup and is set sort of kiss of death for lieutenant governor is very rarel do they get to move on to the.

number 1 position.

I mean, you go to you have to go back to two months to find a sitting lieutenant governor who succeeds in an election, a governor of the, of the same party.

Mrs.

Benson and, and Mr.

James are at 48%.

What did you make at these numbers?

I thought it was interesting that 68% of the people polled were over 45.

I think that that shuts the door on a much younger audience.

I don't think that it's any surprise that the two names are the.

excuse me.

The two frontrunners in this race are folks with the widest level of current name recognition.

Obviously, you know, Rogers has served before, but most recently we're talking James is currently in office.

Benson is currently in office.

for Republicans, I would potentially be a little concerned with James polling that.

Well, I mean, we've seen a historic track record from him at the state level that he cannot has not excuse me, performed well enough to net a statewide seat.

I believe this would be, what, the third time he's run for a state level seat?

He was able to secure the vote in Macomb, but there is a solid Republican contingency there.

Each time he ran, he got better.

Well, but he's also now annoye the president.

How much better?

But the president of the United States that he pointed out, rightfully so, when when James had announced he's like, hey, you know, you you just got here, you're already trying to get out the door and go to another seat.

Even he cast out that that was the correct thing to do.

And so for Republicans, I think that it's time for a little bit of soul searching and saying, hey, if we want to be really serious about the governor's race, we need to know what's going to come next.

Because if James is the guy, he has a proven track record of not doing well statewide.

Cant totally count Mike Cox out.

Yes, he didn't look good in those initial numbers, but he's not yet right.

But it did show tha if he were the nominee to go up against Benson, that that it's prett tight between the two of them.

So the Republicans basically have two potentially good candidates to be able to run in this gubernatorial race.

He's got money.

And what's going to play into, Not his own money?

Well, well that's money.

The interesting thing is going to be on the Republican side.

Who plays for Donald Trump's endorsement and, and and who really gets his backing and the MAGA backing.

And next year, will that b a blessing or will be a curse?

Well, let me I think that's one of the big things, how, you know, how much will Donald Trum matter and how much will it make a difference, not just in the primary, bu going into the general election?

I mean, you know, midterms can be brutal on the party in the white House.

Variation on Chuck's point, what about the Trump people coming in and saying, Mr.

James, you you are going to get out of this race?

They will will they play that card because they want to keep it.

They want absolutely.

They're very concerned about losing Congress.

in the House of Representatives in particular.

it's it's close.

And you're looking at some of these early races that we just seen and which Democrats have don pretty well across the nation.

So that's just perhaps a forerunner of what's going to come next year and whether or not they can take the house back.

I quickly I want to turn to the data center.

virtual hearing.

Isn't the internet just wonderful?

Okay.

Yeah, lots of people are showing up and lots of people don't want to say virtual hearing.

You mean the Public Service Commission?

That's what I meant to say.

Thank you Rick.

You're welcome.

Appreciate that.

Okay.

And, so what was this hearing all about?

And what was the upshot of it?

You want to take a shot at that big guy?

I mean, look, a lot of people lined up to, voiced their opposition to, the data centers, and these are.

DTE Energy says, look at your rates will not go up, and your availability of energy is fine, folks.

And these folks are saying we don't believe you.

Yes.

You know, I'm and there's the you know, there's the local quality of life.

There is the, cost aspect of it.

And then there's just the, the trust in terms of how necessary are these reall that the governor really wants, you know, data centers because they consider that a centerpiece to the new AI economy.

But there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of research out there that says, you know, maybe these aren't the, you know, the the silver bullet that, that, that they're being sold at.

Well, the real niff gnawing here, Chuck, is over.

How quickly the PSC Public Service Commission makes this decision?

The original drill was give them a yes.

Please.

Go ahead and do it.

And everybody said, wait a second.

Well, not being named Chuck, but, Ill go for it anways.

No, I mean, listen, regardless of how you I mean, regardless of how you vote, I think any, any, citizens antenna should stand up when you hear a governmen institution say, just trust us.

We're not going to go through a hearing.

Everything's going to be fine.

We're going to spend a bunch of taxpayer dollars and everything's going to be great.

Don't worry about it.

Everybody's antenna, the hair in the back of your neck should shoot straight up.

The second says government or excuse me the second.

Your government says now just believe us, it's fine.

You can't go about it that way.

I mean, you're even seeing that kind of, terror between National who was pointing out Attorney General Dana Nessel was at one point they conceived with Whitmer, saying, hey, no, absolutely not.

Pump the brakes.

Were Whitmer still, as of, I believe, as recently as yesterday, trying to say that time is of the essence and we have to move now.

So Jordyn what do you think?

Yeah.

And keep in mind that this is also asking for this.

And it already has in many people's eyes, a damaged reputation because they're always coming up asking for rate hikes and rate increases and people are just leery of them.

And when, as Rick said, when they make this big announcement everything's going to be safe.

This and other people aren't convinced of it.

And there's there's the economics of this, but there's also the environmental side that people are very concerned about.

Most of these are being pu into kind of rural type of areas where people have moved out there because they want that kind of quality of life, and all of a sudden this is going to change the entire dynamics.

Now, the flip side of this, it can bring jobs, it can bring money.

It can bring it can help the tax base some areas that with that.

Yeah I mean that's a thing.

Big numbers are one reports of the a couple hundred not the construction jobs but at the site.

And and somebody else said it was 35 okay.

So which is it.

We don't know.

No we don't.

Let's discuss this issue and others as we call in House Speaker Matt Hall.

Mr.

Hall, welcome back to Off the Record.

Let's start.

Let's get you in this conversation.

Do you have a position on data centers or nay?

So I voted no on the legislation to create the tax incentive for the data centers.

You know, we're trying in Michigan to, to cut the income tax.

We're trying to cut property taxes.

And when you keep doing these, carve out on sales tax, makes the job harder.

you know, I paid attention to the discussion.

I think there should be a robust public debate.

I have concerns about this.

and, and I look at it, I, you know we put in, in the legislation, in the law that, that they can't charge higher rates to other people to pay for the data center.

But, you know, I have concerns because, you know, the Whitmer administration and I believe Quentin Messer at the MEDC are the ones that are monitoring that and holding that accountable.

And I don't trust that if you were sitting on the PSC, you would be a no vote?

I would probably vote no.

Why don't you, trust the administration and the Michigan Economic Development Corporation to, stand by what they say their role is, because I've looked at their record on all of their faile economic development programs.

And even these pork spending projects, and they pay out the money without, followin all the steps and all the laws.

so I'm concerned that they will not monitor this appropriately.

and as a result, there's not going to be enough oversight, and it probably will, turn out to be, a rate increase for the people.

Why?

What is what is in i for the Whitmer administration and the MEDC to move to try to, push ahead with a project that's not going to deliver on its promises?

I think there's a lot o pressure on the administration to deliver, the sound bites on a short term when, you know, the governor has don a lot of these ribbon cuttings on big deals.

And let's face it, right, this this data center project, there's a lot of big names in it.

This is something tha the president has talked about.

This is a big one, right?

This is a big national story.

The governor calls it, I think, the biggest economic development project in the history of Michigan.

So that's the incentive.

The problem is, you know, it's not the governor checking every day on the bac end to make sure they perform.

It's Quentin Messe who has a failed record of this.

It's other people in the administration.

And then she's going to leave in a year and there'll be another governor doing it.

So I just have a concern there isn't going to be the oversight to ensure they actually do it.

And secondly, why are we why are we giving them these big tax breaks when I don't believe these data centers really do create the jobs?

I mean, most of them are around 35. the governor promotes numbers like you were talking about for this one in the hundreds.

but really, what we've seen in the research I've done is these are these things are under construction all the time.

All the time.

And so most of the jobs are these construction jobs.

And so the unions and a lot of the constructio workers are happy.

That's great.

but it's why are we giving them huge incentives for 35 people to sit in an empty building?

You know, that that's a challenge for me.

What should the state be measuring as barometers of success when it comes to, economic incentives?

So I think the number of jobs and the wages.

Right.

So, we saw this failed you know, some of these failed battery plants that Whitmer was, was workin on, they were low paying jobs.

I mean, these are jobs that are below average wages.

So if we're going to be paying for jobs, then they should be very high paying jobs, and they should be in fields that we should be paying for.

because the goal of thi is to get a return on investment for the people of Michigan.

You should be getting more money into the state than what you're paying the companies.

And under some of these other deals, they're very expensive deals, and we're not getting the return.

Mr.

speaker, Tim opened up with the CRC, latest analysis of our road funding plan.

Do they have it?

Right?

And what were you all maybe a little too hasty in pushing all this through.

And we have some real concerns out here.

Yeah.

So what I've noticed is, ever since I went to the Oval Office with Gretchen Whitmer, the Citizens Research Council has been attacking everything her and I are working together on.

You know, they had some really suspicious numbers on the budget.

You know, our budget that we passed bipartisan was smaller than the one last year, even under their charts.

It was smaller.

But they they I'm looking at their analysis.

So I started looking into them.

Just so you know, there's a lot of radical left groups that donate to this group.

And also I looked and these their senior leadership, these guys all donate to Democrats.

So I'm very suspicious of the CRC.

I don't have the same confidence in them.

You do.

But I'll tell you this.

we told Gretchen Whitmer, I sat in a room, looked her in the eye and said, I'll match you dollar for dollar, cutting waste, fraud and abuse to to new revenue.

and when he said, well, I don't know what I want, so you tell me what to do.

I said, okay, we're going to we're going to do marijuana tax and EVs.

We now have parity on the EVs with the gas drivers.

That was important.

and then on the other, I just said, well, if Gretche Whitmer has done her homework, if her lawyers say it's good, fine.

If it's not, we'll then we'l cut more waste, fraud and abuse.

I mean, we identified $5 billion of waste, fraud and abuse.

We've only cut 800 million of that.

So I go right back to that, and then I'll just say, I look very carefully at the corporate income tax.

When we did this deal, we wanted to shift this from the regular income tax to the corporate income tax, because one of the goals of a lot of these candidates running for governor is to eliminate the income tax.

Well, if the roads are how you pay, you know what, you use the income tax money for that, then you're you're pitting a very important public benefi against cutting the income tax.

So we moved it over the corporate income tax.

We looked at the history of the corporate income tax.

It's gone up every year.

now, we you know, 1.2 I thin was, what we had to do because, some of this is negotiating.

Right?

So the governor reall wanted to keep that first 1.2.

So we took the next the next 500 or whatever it is.

But I have a I have a perso who works for me, Chris Jones.

He's been workin on transportation for 30 years.

He knows this stuff in and out.

And we went through this an said, this is going to be good.

So for the CRC to come in now, I think it's just they're mad at me and Whitme for working with Trump honestly.

Absent the CRC report.

Excuse me.

you know, we obviously have the ongoing lawsuit with the 24% marijuana wholesale tax.

In your mind, what happens should the court say that the vote was, done in error and that we don't have the ability to impose that 24% tax?

Well, the first thing I point out is the cuts, the $800 million of waste, fraud and abuse that we cut out of departments of government, which includes 2000 ghost employees, these are fake workers that they were using to pad programs, wasteful grant programs, al kinds of waste, fraud and abuse.

Economic development programs.

We discussed, we cut it.

There's another $4 billion of waste, fraud and abuse.

So the first thing I would do is I would cut out more of that waste, fraud and abuse permanently.

And I would dedicat that to roads through a vehicle like the corporate income tax or a different tax, the one that takes the reason that we're talking about the income tax or the corporate income tax, those to dump heavily into the general fund.

So instead of saying we're goin to piecemeal this year by year when we made those permanen cuts to waste, fraud and abuse, we force them to be permanently dedicated to roads.

So that stays.

That was my part of the deal.

This is Whitmer's part of the deal.

So if they didn't do their research on this, then that's their problem.

I've got more waste, fraud and abuse that we can cut.

If I may, you know, one more question, though, on, economic development, the House and the Senate have sort of dueling economic development package regarding a payroll tax capture.

We have about six days lef of legislative days scheduled.

how confident are you that will be able to come to some level of a consensus on this before the end of the year?

Yeah.

Well, now, you know, I've, I've endorsed for the next Senate Democrat leader because I wan to pick him, not the Democrats.

I've endorsed Aaron Camilleri because I thin he'll be the easier one to beat.

But unfortunately, I'm working with Sam seeing on this one.

who's the other candidate?

so.

And so we're working with Samsung.

Samsung worked on this with Governor Whitmer the first time when they did good jobs.

And so he's bringing a lot of valuable experience to the table.

and when we're talking through it and we're getting closer together, I'm making a deal.

but we won't have a deal until I get in the room with Gretchen Whitmer and make that deal.

and then we'll get saying.

And and the Democrats are no going to have a deal this year.

Well, you know, if we don't have a deal this year, you know, it'll be because when he brings backs out, because I'll tell you, I mean, we made a commitment to each other when we did the budget that we were all going to try to do this by the end of the year.

And I'm committe to trying to make that happen.

But she's not even part of this equation.

It's so you and Sam Singer working in this thing.

Well, she's.

Yeah.

And that she tha she's delegated that to Samsung.

So maybe she'll have to step down don't they.

Most of you might have to step in to perform on her word.

If he can't, if he can't do it.

But, hopefully she's told him that we have a goal by the end of the year.

You never know with them.

They'r So considering how much time you have left, I mean, it it seems like the prospec for big things is diminishing.

But what are the things that you can d to set the table for next year?

Well, I think, you know, I' really proud of the fact that, we're on a pace to set the record for fewest public acts in the history of Michigan.

You know, Kyle Marlin looked up.

I think he found 89 in 1856.

We have 35 public acts.

so I think I think you'll see, you know, we'll we'll move a few more I because his heart, you know, it's so 35.

How can you do fewer than that next year?

But what sorts of things woul you move the policy priorities.

Well you know, we're looking at that.

So, you know, we're looking there some things with farmers that, that they have certain tax benefits that are going to expire at the end of the year.

there's a bill on the land survey, Indiana and Michigan, that we've got to do by the end of the year.

For some reason, we're stil disputing what that border is.

So there are certain things with deadlines.

but I'll just say so.

So I've authorized us to, to, to work with breaks and their conversations going on to move, I'd say about 20 more bills.

I don't, but, you know, so the only wa we're going to break the record, and I don't, you know, I or.

Excuse me, I want to be under 89.

That's where I want to be.

The only way we go over that is if the Democrats, actually pass Republica bills, the House without a deal.

And they won't do that because they're too proud.

So I thin we're going to break a record.

And that's, I mean, I was at the Alec conference.

There's legislator across the country celebrating what we're doing in Michigan.

We just won an award for the for the best budget proposal in the country with our $5 billion of waste, fraud and abuse.

We court and they love, that we're holding the lin against, the governor and these Democrats in the Senate and protecting the taxpayers of Michigan.

Mr.

speaker, for a number of weeks now, you have said as soon as I get in that room with the governor, we'll make a deal.

How come you're not in the room with the governor making a deal, sir?

Because the staff is doin a lot of the preliminary work.

Staff have to do work on this thing before the two of you sit down and say, let's just do this.

Well these are complex negotiations.

You've seen that.

They've got it wrong in the past.

And so the staff is getting it close.

And once they've got it close and I'll go in and close that deal with Governor Whitmer and then bring will perform.

Are you 85% there.

I think that's right.

All right.

So there is still a sho at getting this done this year.

There is I mean there is.

And we're going to work really hard to do it.

But once we get a little closer and we're ready where we're in the final few pieces, then I'll get in the room with Governor Whitmer and I'll get a deal.

What's the big sticking point?

I think the big stickin point is we don't want it to be through MEDC and, traditionally has gone through Medici.

Would you like to stay for over time?

Sure.

I'd be happy to.

I'd be happy to have you do that.

Go to wkar.org for more of ou conversation with the speaker.

But look at these closed credits first.

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