♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> AS ISRAEL INTENSIFIES ITS GAZA OFFENSIVE, THE U.N. SAYS THE SITUATION IS GETTING WORSE EACH MINUTE.

WHILE FREED ISRAELI HOSTAGES UNLEASH THEIR ANGER ON PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

I ASK PEACE ACTIVIST ROBI DAMELIN HOW SHE REMAINS HOPEFUL FOR THE FUTURE.

>>> NEXT, WE HAVE LIFTOFF.

TOM HANKS TELLS ME ABOUT "MOONWALKERS," HIS NEW DOCUMENTARY THAT SENDS US ALL INTO OUTER SPACE.

>>> THEN, AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT INDICTED, BUT IT IS NOT DONALD TRUMP.

SCHOLAR AND WRITER JILL LA PORE LOOKS AT HISTORY FOR ANSWERS WITH MICHEL MARTIN.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> RELL WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

DESPITE MOUNTING WARNINGS FROM AROUND THE WORLD, ISRAELI FORCES CONTINUE TO STRIKE TARGETS IN GAZA WITH REPORTS OF HIGH CASUALTIES, AND PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU CONTINUES TO INSIST THE ISRAELI MILITARY WILL DISARM AND CONTROL THE ENCLAVE AFTER THE WAR.

THE UNITED STATES REJECTS RENEWED ISRAELI OCCUPATION THERE.

WHILE SOME FREED HOSTAGES AND THEIR FAMILIES ARE VENTING THEIR ANGER AT NETANYAHU, REVEALED IN THIS LEAKED AUDIO FROM A MEETING BETWEEN THEM.

>> Translator: YOU WILL RETURN THEM ALL.

THEY WILL NOT WAIT 50 DAYS.

THEY WILL NOT WAIT ANOTHER YEAR, BECAUSE YOU CLAIM THAT THEY ARE STRONG ENOUGH.

YOU HAVE NO INFORMATION.

YOU HAVE NO INFORMATION.

THE FACT THAT WE WERE SHELLED, THE FACT THAT NO ONE KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT WHERE WE WERE.

>> AND THE IMPACT OF THIS WAR GOES FAR BEYOND THE REGION.

THIS DIRE WARNING FROM A SENIOR EUROPEAN OFFICIAL.

>> WITH THE WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS AND THE POLARIZATION IT CAUSES IN OUR SOCIETY, WITH UPCOMING HOLIDAY SEASON, THERE IS A HUGE RISK OF TERRORIST ATTACKS.

IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

>> BUT THIS WEEKEND, HERE IN LONDON, A VIGIL WAS HELD OUTSIDE DOWNING STREET TO DEMONSTRATE THAT BOTH SIDES ARE SUFFERING, AND PLEADING FOR AN END TO THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS ONE OF THE MAIN PROPONENTS OF THIS PEACE MOVEMENT.

SHE IS ROBI DAMELIN.

HER SON, DAVID, WAS KILLED BY A PALESTINIAN SNIPER IN 2002, AND INSTEAD OF BEING CONSUMED BY HATE AND REVENGE, SHE DEVOTES HER LIFE TOWARDS PEACE BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

AND SHE'S JOINING ME IN THE STUDIO.

WELCOME HERE, FACE-TO-FACE.

WE'VE TALKED TO YOU SEVERAL TIMES SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

YOU WERE IN ISRAEL WHEN WE SPOKE THE LAST TWO TIMES.

AND YOU DO KEEP TALKING ABOUT HOW ONE MUST BE ABLE TO STILL SEE THE HUMANITY IN EACH OTHER.

TELL ME WHY IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO LEAVE YOUR COUNTRY AND COME TO THIS VIGIL THAT WAS ORGANIZED BY BEREAVED FAMILIES ON BOTH SIDES HERE IN LONDON.

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO TALK ABOUT OPINIONS.

EVERYBODY'S GOT AN OPINION.

THE WHOLE WORLD HAVE TURNED INTO GRAND EXPERTS ON ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

AND I THOUGHT THERE MIGHT BE AN ALTERNATIVE TO THAT, BECAUSE THOSE OPINIONS ARE IMPORTING OUR CONFLICT INTO YOUR COUNTRY, AND CREATING HAVOC BETWEEN JEWS AND MUSLIMS.

AND THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WANT, REALLY, BUT THAT'S THE END PRODUCT.

AND SO, I SPOKE ABOUT, MAYBE, INSTEAD OF HAVING AN OPINION, YOU MIGHT WANT TO FIND THE STORY OF ONE PALESTINIAN OF THEIR LOSS, AND THE STORY OF THE LOSS OF AN ISRAELI FAMILY NOW, AND MAYBE EVEN THE STORY OF A HOSTAGE, AND INSTEAD OF GIVING A GRAND OPINION, YOU COULD ACTUALLY TELL THAT STORY.

MAYBE THAT WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO SOME COMPASSION, INSTEAD OF SO MUCH HATRED.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU, WERE YOU SATISFIED, THEN, BY HOW THIS VIGIL WENT OFF?

BECAUSE PREVIOUS ONES, WHETHER HERE IN LONDON, IN THE U.S., AROUND, HAVE SOME OF THEM DEVOLVED, WHETHER THEY ARE MARCHES AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM, MARCHES FOR PALESTINIAN RIGHTS, SOME OF THEM HAVE DEVOLVED INTO PLACARDS AND MORE HATE AND MORE DISCORD, BUT THIS ONE WAS TOLD, DON'T BRING ANY PLACARDS, DON'T WAVE ANY FLAGS.

>> THERE WEREN'T ANY PLACARDS, THERE WASN'T ANY SHOUTING.

IT WAS VERY RESPECTFUL OF EVERYBODY.

THERECHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS, AND JEWS.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY.

AND THAT'S SO IMPORTANT.

SO, FOR ME, THIS WAS VERY DIFFERENT, AND THE LIGHTING OF LANTERNS WAS SIGNIFICANT, BECAUSE WE KNOW, TONIGHT IS HANUKKAH, AND CHRISTMAS IS ALL ABOUT LIGHT.

SO, THERE IS -- THERE IS SOMETHING IN COMMON.

AND THAT IS LIGHT.

IN MANY WAYS, SO, WE ALL LIT LANTERNS.

>> AND IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO ACTUALLY FIND THAT LIGHT RIGHT NOW.

YOU DID WRITE IN AN OP-ED FOR A BRITISH NEWSPAPER, IT IS PERHAPS A NATURAL THING TO CHOOSE A SIDE, FOR ISRAEL AND PALESTINE SINCE OCTOBER 7th IS THE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH.

AND THERE SEEMS TO BE SORT OF A -- A MOVE TO SORT OF DECLARE YOURSELF AND SO -- I USE THE WORD TRIBALIZE, IT'S NOT A GOOD WORD, BUT TO JUST GET INTO YOUR OWN SILOS, AND THERE'S NO COMPASSION AND NO UNDERSTANDING.

BUT YOU STILL THINK THERE CAN BE?

>> WELL, I THINK -- THE WAY THAT THE PARENT CIRCLE WORKS, THE ORGANIZATION THAT I COME FROM, IS ALL ABOUT STORYTELLING, AND THE MINUTE THAT YOU WOULD HEAR MY PERSONAL STORY NEXT TO A PALESTINIAN PERSONAL STORY, EVEN THE HARDEST OF HEARTS CAN NOT BE EFFECTED BY THAT.

PEOPLE WITH THE GRAND OPINIONS, RUSHING AROUND WITH THEIR PLACARDS, HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON.

I DON'T THINK THEY COULD FIND ISRAEL ON A MAP.

AND, YOU KNOW, I -- JUST THINKING ABOUT MY GRANDDAUGHTER YESTERDAY, IN THE MIDDLE -- I HAVE AN APP ON MY PHONE WHICH TELLS ME IF THERE'S GOING TO BE A ROCKET, SO, THERE WAS A ROCKET OUTSIDE MY HOUSE, AND SUDDENLY, THIS WHOLE FEAR STARTS TO COME UP, AND THAT FEAR IS VERY DANGEROUS.

BECAUSE A LOT OF FEAR AROUND ISRAEL NOW, AND TRAUMA, AND, OF COURSE, THE FEAR OF THE PALESTINIANS RUNNING AWAY IN GAZA IS SO HORRIFIC.

I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT I'M PART OF SOMETHING THAT ALLOWED THAT TO HAPPEN.

I KEEP THINKING ABOUT THE NEXT GENERATION.

IF YOU WERE A YOUNG KID GROWING UP IN GAZA AND EVERY TWO YEARS, THERE'S A WAR, AND EVERY TWO YEARS, THEY ARE BOMBED AND YOU HAVE NO SHELTER AND MAYBE NO FOOD AND MAYBE NO WATER, AND YOU'RE RUNNING AWAY.

AND SO, YOU HAVE NO FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, AND NO HOPE.

SO, WHAT KIND OF AN ADULT ARE YOU ACTUALLY GOING TO BE?

AND I'M LOOKING AT THE WEST BANK NOW, AT THE OCCUPATION, AND I LOOK AT MY FRIENDS WHO HAVE NOT GOT FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT.

THERE'S A TOTAL CLOSURE.

OTHERWISE, I WOULD HAVE BEEN HERE WITH A PALESTINIAN PARTNER.

CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT THAT'S LIKE, FROM THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER, THEY HAVE BEEN MORE ORLESS STUCK AT HOME.

THE SETTLERS ARE RUNNING RAMPANT AND DOING EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT, WITH VERY LITTLE PUNISHMENT OR ACCOUNTABILITY, FOR THAT MATTER.

ALL OF THIS IS A KEG WAITING TO BLOW UP, AND SO, WHAT I'M TELLING YOU NOW IS THAT WE HAVE TO WORK TEN TIMES HARDER.

AND WE HAVE TO WORK WITH THE FAMILIES THAT LOST.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE FAMILIES THAT WERE KILLED DOWN IN THE SOUTH WERE ACTUALLY FROM THE LEFT.

>> YEAH.

>> AND SO, I KNOW, AS A MOTHER -- >> THE PEACEMAKERS.

>> YES.

AND I KNOW, AS A MOTHER, I THINK I TOLD YOU ON THE LAST PROGRAM ABOUT -- >> YOUR FRIEND.

>> SHE WAS BURNED TO DEATH IN A CUPBOARD.

BUT I WAS SO SURE THAT SHE WOULD COME OUT AND BE ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THE PEACE MOVEMENT.

WE CANNOT GIVE UP.

THERE'S NO WAY THAT I WILL GIVE UP, PERSONALLY.

>> WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS INCREDIBLY BRAVE AND INCREDIBLY FORWARD-THINKING, AND MANY SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY NEED TO GET OVER THE CURRENT GRIEF, TO GET OVER THE SITUATION THAT HAS SO SHOCKED, YOU KNOW, THEM AND THE WHOLE WORLD, THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT THIS KIND OF THING.

AND I SAY THAT, BECAUSE YOU YOURSELF AND YOUR PEACE CIRCLE HAS COME UNDER, YOU KNOW, QUITE A LOT OF CRITICISM AND THREATS FROM WITHIN YOUR OWN COMMUNITY.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT -- >> IT'S NOT THE COMMUNITY, IT'S THE GOVERNMENT.

>> OKAY.

SO, HOW DOES YOUR TALK OF PEACE AND SORT OF HEARING THE STORY OF THE OTHER AND RECONCILIATION GO DOWN AT HOME?

>> LOOK, WE CAN'T LOOK AT THE PRESENT GOVERNMENT AS ANYTHING THAT WOULD ENCOURAGE THE WORK THAT WE'RE DOING.

IT'S THREATENING FOR THEM.

WE ARE NUMBER ONE ON THE LIST TO DESTROY.

VIRTUALLY, THEY BANNED US.

LITERALLY, THEY BANNED US FROM SCHOOLS.

JUST BEFORE THE WAR STARTED.

SO, WE STARTED TO HAVE DIALOGUE MEETINGS OUTSIDE, IN FACT, WE HAD ONE OUTSIDE THE HOUSE OF THE EDUCATION MINISTER, WHICH WAS PRETTY NAUGHTY, BUT WAS A GOOD IDEA.

AND WE WERE ACTUALLY STARTING TO MOVE TOWARDS GOING TO THE SUPREME COURT.

FOR 20 YEARS, WE'VE BEEN WORKING IN SCHOOLS.

THE ONLY PALESTINIAN/ISRAELI ORGANIZATION THAT WAS ALLOWED INTO SCHOOLS.

A 17-YEAR-OLD KID WHO HAS NEVER HEARD -- NEVER HEARD IN MY LIFE A STORY OF A PALESTINIAN.

AND SO, FOR THEM TO MEET SOMEBODY FROM OUR GROUP WHO COMES IN AND IS SO VULNERABLE AND TELLS THEIR PERSONAL STORY OF LOSS AND ALLOWS THEM TO ASK QUESTIONS IN A SAFE ATMOSPHERE, THIS IS DANGEROUS?

I THINK THIS IS INCREDIBLE.

>> AND A PALESTINIAN, LIKEWISE, WHO HAS NEVER HEARD A STORY -- >> RIGHT.

>> OF HUMANITY AROUND AN ISRAELI, FELLOW STUDENT, COMPATRIOT.

I RAISE THAT, BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU HAVE TO HEAR THE INDIVIDUAL STORIES.

SO, YOUR STORY, CLEARLY, IS SO TRAGIC.

YOU LOST YOUR SON.

ONE OF YOUR PARTNERS, WHO WE INTERVIEWED WITH YOU BY SATELLITE, HE WAS IN THE WEST BANK, HE LOST HIS DAUGHTER, SHE WAS KILLED BY AN ISRAELI SOLDIER'S BULLET.

I JUST WANT TO PLAY WHAT HE SAID -- I JUST WANT TO PLAY WHAT HE SAID IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING THE OTHER SIDE, UNDERSTANDING YOUR SIDE.

>> I BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENED IS TERRIBLE.

AND BECAUSE I HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST, I HAVE THE RIGHT TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

THIS IS MY HOME, MY FAITH, THAT THE PALESTINIANS, THEY DIDN'T KILL 6 MILLION ISRAELIS.

AND THE ISRAELIS, THEY DIDN'T KILL 6 MILLION PALESTINIANS.

YET.

AND THERE IS A GERMAN AMBASSADOR IN TEL AVIV, BUT THERE IS AN ISRAELI AMBASSADOR IN BERLIN.

IT MEANS WE CAN DO IT.

WE JUST NEED A BRAVE LEADER, OR LEADERS, TO TAKE US TOWARDS THE FUTURE.

>> YEAH.

>> AND EASE US FROM THE ATROCITIES AND THE VERY PAINFUL PAST.

>> IT WAS SO EFFECTIVE TO HEAR HIM SAY THAT, AND EFFECTING.

AND I JUST WONDERED WHAT YOU THINK.

WHERE ARE THE LEADERS?

BECAUSE THIS IS GOING TO TAKE A MASSIVE EFFORT ON LEADERSHIP, IN ISRAEL, PALESTINE, AND AROUND THE WORLD.

>> I THINK IT'S GOT TO START, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T WAIT FOR SOMEBODY TO APPEAR.

I THINK THE WORK THAT WE'RE DOING NOW IS VITALLY IMPORTANT.

A PERSON LIKE BASAM IS SUCH AN EXCEPTIONAL HUMAN BEING.

FOR ME, HE'S MY FAMILY BY NOW, AND HE ALSO HAS A SENSE OF HUMOR, AND I MUST SAY THAT IF YOU WANT TO DO THIS WORK, IF YOU CANNOT LAUGH, AND, BY THE WAY, LAUGHTER IS KIND OF A BRIDGE TO SOMEBODY'S HEART ANYWAY, YOU CAN'T GO ON.

AND SO, WE LAUGH A LOT TOGETHER IN ALL THIS MADNESS, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK HE IS AN EXTRAORDINARY HUMAN BEING.

BUT I'M HERE AND THERE'S 700 FAMILIES IN OUR GROUP, EACH ONE COULD TELL YOU A STORY THAT WOULD TOUCH YOUR HEART AND MAKE AN EMOTIONAL BREAKTHROUGH.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, TALKING TO THESE, HOWEVER MANY OF THE FAMILIES THAT YOU KNOW, AND THERE ARE OTHER ORGANIZATIONS IN THE REGION THAT ALSO TRY TO -- TRY TO WORK THIS PATH.

DO YOU -- DO YOU THINK THAT THERE ARE ENOUGH PEOPLE ON EITHER SIDE WHO WILL ACT SET -- AND THEY HAVE TO, FOR A PEACE -- ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT NOBODY -- NONE OF THEM ARE GOING ANYWHERE.

THEY'RE STAYING, THEY'RE SHARING, THEY HAVE TO, AND THAT HAS TO BE THE STORY OF THE FUTURE.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN I CAME TO ISRAEL IN 1967, KIND OF JUMP ING INTO THE FIRE, I WOULD SAY, IF YOU WOULD HAVE TOLD ME THEN THAT BLACKS AND WHITES WOULD SIT TOGETHER IN A ROOM AND NOT WANT TO KILL EACH OTHER, I WOULD HAVE SAD YOU WERE MAD.

>> IN YOUR OWN HOME COUNTRY?

>> OH, YES.

SO, IT WAS A MIRACLE.

IT'S NOT A MIRACLE THAT EVERYTHING IS NOW PARADISE, NO.

BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT OVERNIGHT RECONCILIATION.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING.

IT COULD NEVER HAPPEN.

BUT LOOK WHAT HAPPENED.

AND THINK OF THE ALTERNATIVE OF THE BLOOD BATH THAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED WHEN MANDELA CAME OUT OF JAIL.

SO, YES, I BELIEVE THAT THINGS LIKE THIS CAN HAPPEN FOR US.

I REMEMBER WHEN SADDAT CAME TO ISRAEL, I WAS SITTING WITH MY TWO -- >> THE PRESIDENT OF EGYPT AT THE TIME.

>> YES.

>> AFTER THE YOM KIPPUR WAR THAT EGYPT STARTED.

>> I WAS SITTING WITH MY TWO LITTLE BOYS AND TEARS WERE POURING DOWN MY FACE, BECAUSE I THOUGHT THEY WOULD HAVE TO GO TO THE ARMY.

AND THEN I THINK OF KING HUSSEIN, WHAT CAME TO ISRAEL WHEN A JORDANIAN SHOT SOME KIDS, AND I REMEMBER HIM SITTING ON THE FLOOR IN A HOUSE OF MOURNING, AND THINKING TO MYSELF, WOW, IF THERE WAS AN ELECTION NOW, THEY WOULD VOTE FOR HIM TO BE THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER.

SO, YES, I THINK THINGS CAN HAPPEN OVERNIGHT, AND A LEADER CAN COME UP FROM -- BUT WE HAVE TO DO THE WORK THAT WE'RE DOING.

AS MUCH AS WE CAN.

WE HAVE TO CONTINUE WITH THE CEREMONY THAT WE HAVE EVERY YEAR ON MEMORIAL DAY.

WE HAVE A CEREMONY, WHICH THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT EXACTLY THRILLED, AND EVERY YEAR, WE HAVE TO GO TO THE HIGH COURT TO GET PERMISSION FOR THE PALESTINIANS TO COME.

AND I MUST SAY, IT IS QUITE GOOD TO BEAT THE SYSTEM AND GO TO THE SUPREME COURT AND -- THIS YEAR, BECAUSE OF THE DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT AND BECAUSE PEOPLE SUDDENLY REALIZED THAT WE WERE SO MUCH ON THE TOP OF THE LIST FOR DESTROYING, 15,000 PEOPLE CAME TO THE CEREMONY.

>> IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO KNOW IF THAT GROUP SURVIVES THE TERRIBLE WAR RIGHT NOW.

>> WE HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE.

>> YOU TOLD ME IN OUR FIRST INTERVIEW, DON'T FORGET, MUSLIMS CAME TO THE HELP OF THE ISRAELI-JEWISH VICTIMS, AND WE KNOW THE ARMY WASN'T THERE IN TIME, WE KNOW THE INDIVIDUAL IDF SOLDIERS AND FORMER COMMANDERS JUST PUT ON THEIR UNIFORMS AND RACED IN THEIR OWN PIVATE CARS -- >> THEY WERE BUSY GUARDING THE SETTLERS.

>> TELL ME MORE ABOUT THE BEDWINS.

IT'S AN IMPORTANT THING THAT HAPPENED.

>> IT'S MORE THAN IMPORTANT.

I THINK THAT -- IF I CAME FROM AN UNRECOGNIZED VILLAGE AND I DIDN'T PROBABLY HAVE A SHELTER, AND WHEN I HEARD THAT MY NEIGHBOR WAS IN TROUBLE, WOULD I IMMEDIATELY GATHER EVERYBODY AROUND ME AND GO TO TRY AND SAVE LIVES?

AND WOULD I HAVE BEEN SHOT AND KILLED, WHICH SEVERAL WERE.

AND WOULD I THEN BE TAKEN AS A HOSTAGE?

WOULD I HAVE MADE THAT CHOICE?

I'M NOT SURE.

AND TODAY, IF YOU LOOK AT THIS VILLAGE, THEY HAVE 80,000 PEOPLE, MAYBE -- THEY'VE CREATED THIS HUGE WAREHOUSE TOGETHER WITH THE ISRAELIS, WHERE THEY ARE SUPPLYING THINGS TO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN NEED.

EXTRAORDINARY THINGS ARE HAPPENING.

IN 2021, WHEN YOU INTERVIEWED US, THERE WERE TERRIBLE RIOTS OUTSIDE MY HOUSE.

THIS TIME, THERE'S A COMMITTEE OF PALESTINIANS, ISRAELIS WHO ARE WORKING TOGETHER FOR NONVIOLENCE.

THERE'S NO VIOLENCE.

>> NO.

ROBI DAMELIN, ALWAYS INSPIRATIONAL.

KEEP UP YOUR WORK.

IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> SO, AS CONFLICT RAGES ON OUR EARTH, LET'S TURN NOW TO THE STARS FOR SOME MORE INSPIRATION.

A NEW IMMERSIVE DOCUMENTARY EXPERIENCE TAKES US BACK 55 YEARS, TELLING THE STORY OF THE APOLLO SPACE PROGRAM AND HOW HUMANS FIRST REACHED THE MOON.

IT IS CALLED "MOONWALKERS," AND IT IS NARRATED AND COWRITTEN BY TOM HANKS, WHO IS A LONGTIME SPACE ENTHUSIAST, ALONGSIDE THE WRITER/DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER RILEY.

HERE IS A TASTE OF THE EXPERIENCE.

>> IN THE 50,000 YEARS OF HUMAN HISTORY, JUST 12 OF US HAVE TRAVELED FROM OUR EARTH TO WALK ON ANOTHER SELL LEST Y'ALL BODY.

>> 40 SECONDS AWAY FROM THE APOLLO 11 LIFTOFF.

FIVE, FOUR, THREE, TWO, ONE -- LIFTOFF, WE HAVE A LIFTOFF.

LIFTOFF ON APOLLO 11.

>> NOW JOIN ME ON A JOURNEY BACK TO THE MOON.

IN A REMARKABLE, IMMERSIVE SHOW.

>> SO, JUST DAYS AHEAD OF TODAY'S OPENING TO THE PUBLIC HERE IN LONDON, I ASKED THEM, WHAT INSPIRED THIS PROJECT NOW?

TOM HANKS, CHRIS RILEY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THIS IS AN AMERICAN STORY, SO, WHY IS IT DEBUTING IN LONDON?

WHAT MADE YOU THINK OF LONDON?

>> AH, THIS VERY FACILITY THAT WE ARE SITTING IN NOW IN KINGS CROSS IS THE MOST -- IT IS THE MOST UNIQUE, IMMERSIVE VENUE I'VE EVER COME ACROSS IN MY LIFE.

THE FIRST TIME WE CAME HERE, WE SAW AN EXHIBIT OF PAINTINGS.

NOW, I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO BE SEEING AN EXHIBIT OF DAVID HAWKING PAINTINGS.

I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS GOING TO BE WALKING INTO ONE OF HIS PAINTINGS AS DAVID HIMSELF WAS PAINTING IT ALL AROUND YOU.

SEEING THAT THAT WAS POSSIBLE, IMMEDIATELY WENT TO THE POWERS THAT BE, RICHARD SLATE, EVERYBODY ELSE, SAID, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD PUT PEOPLE IN THE VALLEY WHERE WE'RE SITTING RIGHT NOW ON APOLLO 17 AND IT WOULD BE AS THOUGH WE ARE SITTING RIGHT ON THE MOON.

YOU HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT?

THEY SAID NO, BUT WOULD YOU LIKE TO THINK ABOUT IT WITH US?

SO, HERE WE ARE.

I COULD NOT QUITE FATHOM THE -- IT'S NOT VIRTUAL REALITY, CHRISTIANE, IT'S REALITY.

IT'S NOT A HEADSET WITH EARPHONES ON, YOU ARE LITERALLY IN A 360 -- YOU DON'T HAVE A ROOF, BELOW YOU, AROUND YOU, IS THE ENVIRONMENT YOU WANT TO CREATE AND IT JUST SO HAPPENS TO BE THE VACUUM OF SPACE AND THE SEA OF TRANQUILITY.

>> AND THE TWO OF YOU WROTE THIS TOGETHER.

WHAT DID IT TAKE TO WRITE THIS?

WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE, WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THE MOON, THE STORY THAT'S BEEN TOLD SO MANY TIMES?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

WHY.

>> WELL, YES, I MEAN, IT'S NOT ENTIRELY ABOUT THE MOON.

THE STORY IS ACTUALLY A STORY OF HOPE, OF COURSE.

IT'S ABOUT HOPE, OF HUMANITY, OF WHAT WE CAN DO WHEN WE WORK TOGETHER.

APOLLO REALLY EPITOMIZES THAT.

IT'S THE WORK OF HALF A MILLION PEOPLE FOR A DECADE, ALL PULLING TOGETHER FOR ONE PARTICULAR QUEST.

AND IT WAS DRIVEN BY CURIOSITY IN PART.

AND WHEN WE ARE CURIOUS, WE DISCOVER UNEXPECTED THINGS.

AND THAT'S THE MESSAGE WE WANTED TO TRY TO CONVEY IN PART.

>> THE QUESTION IS WHY AND WHY NOW?

IF YOU TOOK THE HEADLINES OF 1969 AND THE HEADLINES OF 2023, THEY ACTUALLY MATCH UP IN QUITE -- WHAT'S THE WORD I'M LOOKING FOR -- >> SIN CRON NICETY?

>> YES.

AND IT'S NOT GREAT NEWS.

IT'S ACTUALLY QUITE TROUBLESOME, AND IT'S VERY MUCH SORT OF A DEFINING OF THIS ERA THAT WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW, AND AT THE SAME TIME, IN 1968 AND IN THE SAME TIME IN 2023, PEOPLE WERE GOING TO THE MOON.

I MEAN, WE DO MAKE A BIG DEAL ABOUT THE ARTEMIS MISSIONS THAT WILL BE GOING BACK AROUND THE MOON WITHIN THE NEXT YEAR, WHICH IS AN INCREDIBLE STEP FOR HUMANKIND.

FOR MYSELF, WHEN I WAS 13, THE APOLLO MISSIONS WERE THIS EXAMPLE OF -- IT WAS AN EVOLUTIONARY PLACE IN THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF HUMAN KIND.

THE ONLY REASON TO GO TO THE MOON IS BECAUSE WE'RE HUMAN BEINGS AND WE DESIRE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HILL.

AND THAT AFFECTED ME VERY MUCH.

AND IF WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS, DO WE NOT HAVE TO REMAIN CURIOUS AND DO WE NOT HAVE TO STRIVE IN ORDER TO SEE WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT HILL?

>> AND DO WE NOT HAVE TO BE STIRRED?

BECAUSE YOU SAY, CORRECTLY, THAT THIS UNBELIEVABLE 360 EXPERIENCE PUTS YOU IN THE MOMENT, AND THE OPENING WORDS WE'VE HEARD, AND YOU HAVE THE OPENING THEIR THEIR YAGS -- >> EVERY HUMAN BEING THAT LIVED ON THE PLANET EARTH LOOKED UP AT THE MOON.

IT'S GIVEN US OUR DAY, THE LENGTH OF OUR MONTH.

AND WE'VE BEEN MOVED BY IT, SPIRITUALLY.

>> HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH, I MEAN, WHAT'S REALLY CURIOSITY, HUMAN, YOU KNOW, CONNECTION, TO YOUR OPENING STATEMENT?

HOW DID THAT COME OUT?

>> IF WE ARE GOING TO BECOME INTERPLANETARY BEINGS, FROM "STAR TREK" AND THE GREAT WONDERINGS OF GREAT SCIENCE FICTION, WE WILL BE DOING SO BASED ON WHAT WE LEARNED AS SPACE-FARING BEINGS.

THERE'S ONLY 12 HUMAN BEINGS THAT HAVE WALKED ON THE SURFACE OF ANOTHER PLANET.

ONLY 12 OF US.

IN THE 50,000 YEARS OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR.

WHEN WE DO IT AGAIN, AND WE WILL, WE WILL BE DOING IT BECAUSE THESE WERE THE PATHFINDERS WHO SHOWED IT WAS POSSIBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF THE TECHNOLOGY, CERTAINLY, THAT IS, BUT IT IS ALSO A QUESTION, AS YOU YOURSELF SAID, IT'S WHERE WITH ALL.

DO WE WANT TO?

AND THE ANSWER IS, YES, WE DO, SO, THEN THE HOW IS, WELL, WE ALREADY HAVE KIND OF, LIKE, A TEMPLATE OF HOW, WE JUST HAVE TO FOLLOW IT THROUGH TO WHATEVER THE NEXT CHAPTER IS GOING TO BE.

>> CHRIS, YOU -- I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WROTE THE OPENING STATE, BUT THE IDEA OF LOOKING UP AND AULSZ SEEING THIS MOON, AND OUT IS REPOSITORY OF OUR DREAMS AND HOPES.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, THE MOON IS A BEACON, OF COURSE, AND IT'S SOMETHING WE'RE ALL FAMILIAR WITH IN OUR LIVES.

IT IS ALWAYS UP THERE, EVER-CHANGING, YOU KNOW, AS WELL.

AND WHEREVER YOU TRAVEL ON EARTH, IT'S DIFFERENT, TOO.

AND IN MANY WAYS, IT'S PULLED US OFF THE PLANET.

WE DREAMED ABOUT IT, AS TOM SAYS, FOR CENTURIES, WE WROTE ABOUT IT, WE INVENTED GODS UP THERE, AS TOMS WOR EXPLAINS AT THE BEGINNING.

WITHOUT THE MOON, THERE WAS NOWHERE TO REACH TO.

NEIL ARMSTRONG, I THINK, SAW IT IN THE SAME WAY AS THE ISLANDS JUST OFF THE COAST OF CHINA THAT TUGGED US AS A SPECIES INTO THE PACIFIC, BECAUSE IF YOU COULDN'T SEE SOMETHING TO REACH THAT WASN'T OVER THE HORIZON, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE HAD THE COURAGE TO GO.

AND THAT'S WHAT THE MOON SYMBOLIZES FOR US, AS WELL, I THINK.

>> YOU -- YOU SAW THE -- WHEN YOU WERE A KID, YOU WATCHED ON TELEVISION, AND I WATCHED ON TELEVISION, NEIL ARMSTRONG WALK ON THE MOON, AND I GUESS THAT IT'S INSPIRED YOU EVER SINCE.

BECAUSE YOU ALSO PLAYED, YOU KNOW, JIM LOVELL IN "APOLLO 13."

>> HEY, WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM HERE.

>> WHAT DID YOU DO?

>> NOTHING, I STIRRED THE TANKS.

>> WHOA.

HEY.

AH, THIS IS HOUSTON, SAY AGAIN, PLEASE?

>> HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM.

>> HAS THAT BEEN SOMETHING THAT'S STAYED WITH YOU EVER SINCE?

WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THAT FILM?

>> I WAS -- FIRST OF ALL, "APOLLO 13," THEY ARE JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS.

THAT IS A STORY THAT'S RIPPED RIGHT OUT OF THE GREAT SAGAS OF ALL OF HUMANKIND.

THIS IS WHAT IT COMES AROUND TO.

SITTING AT HOME, ACTUALLY, IT WAS 1968, JIM LOVELL WAS ORBITING THE MOON, AND ON MY MOTHER'S COUCH, I SAW A LIVE BROADCAST OF, WHAT, OH, THE PLANET EARTH IN BLACK AND WHITE, ON MY TELEVISION, IN MY MOM'S HOUSE OVER CHRISTMAS VACATION.

SOMETHING IN MY FEEBLE LITTLE BRAIN COULD NOT QUITE FATHOM THAT I WAS WATCHING US ON EARTH FROM AN ORBITING SPACECRAFT THAT WAS AROUND THE MOON, POINTING A TELEVISION CAMERA BACK AT US AND THERE WERE -- THE ONLY THREE PEOPLE THAT WERE NOT IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH WERE THE CREW IN THAT BROADCAST.

THERE -- I HAD SOME SORT OF CRANE Y'ALL PLATE SHIFT, SOME SORT OF OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE, WHICH I THOUGHT, WE ARE MAGNIFICENT -- WE ARE MAGNIFICENT CREATURES IF WE CAN MAKE THIS HAPPEN.

AND, LOOK, TO BE 12 YEARS OLD AND WATCHING THAT ON TV AND HAVE A SPIRITUAL, ARTISTIC MOMENT OF ENLIGHTENMENT, THAT'S AN IMPACTFUL THING AND I'VE CARRIED WITH ME EVER SINCE.

BECAUSE I STILL CAN'T QUITE FATHOM THAT A GUY WAS WALKING AROUND ON THE MOON JUST LIKE THAT AND BROUGHT HOME ROCKS FOR US TO STUDY.

>> WOULD YOU EVER GO?

OBVIOUSLY, SPACE TRAVEL IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE, YOU KNOW -- >> LET'S GO.

>> AS LONG AS YOU'VE GOT A BILLION DOLLARS AND YOU'RE ELON MUSK OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

WOULD YOU WANT TO GO -- >> I MEAN, YOU'D GO, RIGHT?

GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY?

>> WELL, WE DID KIND OF GO.

WHEN WE WENT TO HOUSTON, TO MEET -- >> I MEAN, REALLY.

WOULD YOU GET -- >> I'D SAY NO, I THINK THAT WOULD BE A LOVELY ROLLER COASTER, BUT WE JUST TALKED TO THE ARTEMIS FOLKS LAST NIGHT, AND THEY ARE HOPING THAT PRIVATE -- PRIVATE ENTERPRISE WILL BUILD ROTATING SPACE STATIONS AROUND THE EARTH, SO YOU COULD GO UP AND LIVE IN SPACE AS A -- WHAT IS IT, PROWILL TEAR YAT, FOR A FEW DAYS, MAYBE A COUPLE OF WEEKS.

THAT WOULD BE INTRIGUING.

>> IT'S ALSO WORTH REMEMBERING, I THINK, THAT IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS, THERE'S GOING TO BE 25 MISSIONS TO THE MOON, I MEAN, THAT'S WAY MORE THAN THERE WERE EVEN IN THE '60s.

>> BETWEEN INDIA, AND CHINA, AND THE UNITED STATES -- >> WELL, YOU RAISE AN INTERESTING POINT, BECAUSE INDIA'S DONE A BIG E ON THE SOUTH SIDE, CHINA'S DONE A BIG E, LANDING ON THE DARK SIDE.

THERE IS A FEAR IN THE UNITED STATES AT NASA THAT UNLESS AND EVEN, YOU KNOW, A SPACEX EXECUTIVE HAS SAID, UNLESS WE GET OUR ACT TOGETHER, WHETHER IT'S ARTEMIS OR WHOEVER NEXT, WE ARE GOING TO BE BEATEN BY CHINA, BY INDIA, BY RUSSIA, BY WHOEVER.

DOES THAT -- DO YOU THINK THAT THAT MATTERS?

>> WELL, THE THING ABOUT LEAVING EARTH AND EXPLORING BEYOND EARTH, IT HAS TO BE AN ENDEAVOR THAT WE DO COLLECTIVELY, AND SO, THERE'S ROOM UP THERE.

THE MOON IS HUGE.

AS TOM SAYS IN THE SHOW, YOU KNOW, THE SIZE COMBINED OF BRAZIL AND THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA.

THERE'S A MASSIVE LAND MASS.

THERE'S ROOM THERE FOR US ALL TO EXPLORE.

WE REALLY SHOULDN'T BE RESTRICTING IT TO ONE OR TWO COUNTRIES.

>> BUT DO YOU BELIEVE, WATCHING WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW, AND IT IS TRUE, THE SPACE PROGRAM IS ONE OF THE ONLY INTERNATIONAL COOPERATIVE EVENTS THAT CARRIES ON RIGHT NOW, BUT ALL THESE COUNTRIES ARE AT LOGGER HEADS.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF LOGGER HEADS IS THE RIGHT WORD WHEN IT COMES TO BEYOND EARTH EXPLORATION.

YES, THERE ARE THINGS GOING ON IN FOREIGN POLICY AND THAT SORT OF STUFF, BUT NOT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LEAVING THE EARTH, I MEAN, THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION IS UP THERE STILL FUNCTIONING DESPITE TROUBLES BETWEEN THE PARTNERS BACK ON EARTH, AND THAT'S BECAUSE SPACE NEEDS THAT COLLABORATIVE -- >> AND YOU KNOW THE RUSSIAN CREWS AND THE INTERNATIONAL CREWS, THE AMERICANS, THEY GET TOGETHER FOR KARAOKE NIGHT ON THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION.

THEY WATCH MOVIES TOGETHER UP THERE.

THERE'S GOING TO BE NO LOSERS IN GOING TO THE MOON.

WHEN I WAS A KID, WE HAD TO BEAT THE COMMUNISTS.

WE HAD TO DO IT BEFORE THE DECADE WAS OUT.

THERE WAS NO WAY AMERICA CAN LOSE TO THE REDS, THAT'S JUST -- THERE'S GOING TO BE NO LOSING IN WHOEVER GOES UP TO THE MOON NOW.

I TALK TO -- I HELD ONE OF THE ROCKS THAT NEIL ARMSTRONG BROUGHT BACK FROM THE MOON.

IT WAS IN PLASTIC AND I HAD GLOVES ON, IT WAS VERY SAFE, SO, IT WASN'T LIKE PICKING IT UP.

I SAID, IS IT TRUE THAT THERE'S WATER ON THE MOON?

AND THEY SAID, THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT THERE IS WATER ON THE MOON.

IF THERE IS WATER ON THE MOON, IT IS A GAME-CHANGER.

AND LET'S JUST SAY, IT'S GOING TO BE THERE FOR EVERYBODY, AND MORE POWER TO ANYBODY WHO HAS THE WHERE WITH ALL AND THE WILL AND THE MONEY AND THE DRIVE IN ORDER TO GET UP THERE AND START PLANNING -- FINDING OUT WHAT ELSE WE ARE GOING TO DISCOVER.

>> YOU SAY MORE POWER TO ANYBODY.

SO, THAT LEADS ME TO THE QUESTION OF ELON MUSK AND SPACEX AND -- AND FRANKLY, ELON MUSK'S POLITICALLY DUBIOUS QUALITIES, AND HIS KIND OF HATE SPEECH ON X AND HE'S BEEN IN A LOT OF TROUBLE FOR PROMOTING ANTI-SEMITISM AND THIS AND THAT.

SO, WHEN YOU THINK OF THE IDEALISM OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY, YOU KNOW, WHO HE SAID, THAT WE WILL, YOU KNOW, MAKE IT TO THE MOON.

FOR ALL THE RIGHT REASONS.

DOES IT WORRY YOU, ACTUALLY, THAT SOME OF THESE PEOPLE THAT ARE ABLE TO DO THIS MAY NOT HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE BEST INTERESTS OF COLLABORATION -- >> WELL, THAT'S INTERESTING.

IT TURNS OUT A BUNCH OF TYCOONS CAN BE REALLY KOOKY PEOPLE.

HENRY FORD WAS A VICIOUS ANTI-SEMITE.

WE STILL DRIVE FORD TRUCKS AROUND.

IF ANYBODY IS GOING TO BE AS SHORT-SIGHTED SHORT-SIGHTED, IT'S JUST SIMPLY WRONG.

WE KIND OF -- THE U.N. AND PEOPLE HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE SHALL BE NO CONQUERING OF TERRITORY IN OUTER SPACE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW ANYBODY WOULD GO TO THE MOON AND GET RICH DOING IT.

IT'S GOING TO COST THEM AN AWFUL LOT OF MONEY, BUT I THINK, EVENTUALLY, THEIR EGO MIGHT BE SAL VED BY DOING SOMETHING OTHER THAN PUTTING A FLAG THAT HAS A COPYRIGHTED LOGO UP ON THE MOON.

I THINK THERE ARE OTHER WAYS THEIR EGO CAN BE, YOU KNOW, BUTT TRESSED.

>> AND YOU ALSO THINK, BECAUSE, AGAIN, WE LIVE IN A VERY POLARIZED WORLD, RIGHT NOW IN THE MIDDLE OF A TERRIBLE WAR, SEVERAL TERRIBLE WARS, PEOPLE HAVE LOST FAITH IN INSTITUTIONS, PEOPLE ARE COMPLETELY POLARIZED AND TRIBALIZED ON SO MANY ISSUES.

EVEN ON CLIMATE.

DO YOU THINK THE MOON IS KIND OF MAYBE THE LAST INSTITUTION AND SPACE TRAVEL AND THE EXPLORATION THAT PEOPLE CAN TRUST IN?

>> GOING TO THE MOON REQUIRES A DEFAULT SETTING THAT IS NOT CYNICISM.

IT REQUIRES JUST THE OPPOSITE.

IT ACTUALLY REQUIRES FAITH IN EACH OTHER, TRUST IN ONE'S OWN ABILITIES, TO BE IMPROVED BY WORKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

AND THAT IS -- IT CAN'T HELP BUT BE INTERNATIONAL.

I MEAN, EVERY ONE OF THE PLAQUES THAT ARE UP THERE SAY FOR ALL MANKIND, FOR ALL HUMANKIND.

WE CANNOT GO THERE UNLESS WE DO IT ALL TOGETHER.

AND I THINK -- YOU KNOW AS WELL AS ANYBODY THAT, YEAH, A FAITH IN INSTITUTIONS OR A BELIEVE IN INSTITUTIONS -- JUST AN UNDERSTANDING THAT, YEAH, ALL WE REALLY NEED IS ENOUGH OF US TO WORK TOGETHER AND WE CAN TRULY CHANGE THE WORLD.

RIGHT NOW, IT SEEMS AS THOUGH NOT ENOUGH OF US CAN WORK TOGETHER.

LET'S FIND AN EXAMPLE OF WHEN THAT HAPPENS, BUT I'M SORRY, GOING BACK TO THE MOON IS THAT VERY EXAMPLE.

>> LET ME JUST ASK YOU TWO FILM QUESTIONS.

A.I.

AND THE WRITERS AND ACTORS' STRIKE.

YOU HAD WRITTEN AND TALKED ABOUT HOW WHEN YOU WERE YOUNG YOU HAD TO SCRATCH OUT A LIVING AND, YOU KNOW, YOU EARNED YOUR PAYCHECK, AND IT WASN'T EASY.

A LOT OF THESE WRITERS AND ACTORS ARE IN THE SAME POSITION, AND SO, THEY WENT ON STRIKE AND THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT A.I.

DID YOU SUPPORT THE STRIKE?

>> OH, YES.

YEAH.

>> AND WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE ACTUAL RESULT OF THE RESOLUTION?

WILL THAT SAVE THEM FROM THE A.I.

THREAT?

>> I THINK THERE IS A GREAT RIVER -- THERE IS A RUBICON THAT WE ARE STILL CROSSING AND I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN ROME YET.

>> WHEREVER WE ARE.

>> AND ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT, THERE'S GOING TO BE A LANDSCAPE THAT IS CERTAINLY SCIENTIFIC AND ARTISTIC, AND A.I.

IS A TOOL THAT CAN BE USED FOR NEFARIOUS REASONS, AND IT CAN ALSO BE USED IN ORDER TO MAKE THINGS POSSIBLE THAT HAVEN'T BEEN POSSIBLE.

THE ECONOMICS OF IT, THE BUSINESS OF IT THAT'S COMING DOWN, I THINK THAT IS THE AREA THAT WE ARE IN STILL A VERY UNFAMILIAR LANDSCAPE.

BETWEEN EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED WITH THE LOCKDOWN, CERTAINLY WITH THE ECONOMICS OF STREAMING, WE'RE NOT QUITE SURE WHAT WORKS YET.

IF GREAT STORIES THAT TRULY DO REACH PEOPLE COME OUT OF WHATEVER TOOLS YOU'RE GOING TO USE IN ORDER TO TELL THE STORY, DEEP FAKE TECHNOLOGY, A.I., IN ORDER TO -- IN ORDER TO BUTTRESS UP THE RESEARCH, THAT'S ONE THING, BUT IN ORDER TO USE IT TO MAKE THINGS CHEAPER, FASTER, LESS INTERESTING, QUICKER, WHATEVER IT IS, WELL, THEN, I DON'T KNOW IF I WANT TO LIVE IN THAT ROME, BUT IT'S GOING TO BE -- IT HAS NOT BEEN DECIDED.

WE ARE STILL IN A VERY MALLEABLE CIRCUMSTANCE RIGHT NOW WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO THE ART AND SCIENCE AND INDUSTRY OF TELLING STORIES.

>> YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.

YOU HAD TO GO OUT AND DENOUNCE AN AD THAT WAS USED BY A.I., CLAIMING TO BE YOU -- >> YEAH, THAT WAS -- >> FOR A DENTAL -- >> THAT WAS FISHING FOR INFORMATION.

THEY JUST WANTED SOMETHING TO DO.

AND THAT WAS ABOUT AS PRIMITIVE AS YOU'RE GOING TO GET.

BUT HERE'S THE THING THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN EVER SINCE THEY PUT SPROCKETS ONTO SELL EWE LLOYD.

MOVIES CAN LIE TO YOU.

AND YOU MIGHT ENJOY BEING LIED TO YOU AND BELIEVE EVERYTHING, BUT ALSO, MOVIES CAN TELL YOU A TYPE OF TRUTH THAT IS UNDENIABLE, BOTH, YOU KNOW, IMPERIALICLY, AND ALSO EMOTIONALLY, AND A.I., ALONG WITH THE CLOSEUP, ALONG WITH SPECIAL EFFECTS SHOTS, ALONG WITH ANYTHING, IT'S GOING TO BE SOME OTHER TOOL THAT IS GOING TO BE USED BY SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO TRY TO EITHER CURRY YOUR FAVOR, AND USE IT TO THEIR ADVANTAGE, OR MOVE FORWARD THE ARTFORM OF CINEMA.

>> TOM HANKS, CHRISTOPHER RILEY, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>> THERE YOU GO.

HOW ABOUT THIS?

AH.

>> AND "MOONWALKERS" IS OPEN HERE AT THE LIGHT ROOM IN THE UK, IT'S A STUNNING, IMMERSIVE EXPERIENCE.

>>> NOW, HE MADE HISTORY AS THE FIRST U.S. PRESIDENT TO BE CRIMINALLY INDICTED, BUT THE CHARGES AGAINST DONALD TRUMP AREN'T UNPRECEDENTED.

OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES THAT THE FAILED CONVICTION OF A FORMER AMERICAN LEADER OVER 150 YEARS AGO COULD HOLD LESSONS FOR THE TRIALS AWAITING TRUMP.

STAFF WRITER AT "THE NEW YORKER" JILL LEPORE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HER LATEST ARTICLE, WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE U.S. FAILED TO PROSECUTE AND INSURRECTIONIST EX-PRESIDENT.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

JILL, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR RECENT PIECE FOR "THE NEW YORKER," WHICH IS OUT NOW, OUTLINES THE TRIAL OF JEFFERSON DAVIS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE CONFEDERACY.

IT'S A VERY DETAILED AND COMPLICATED STORY, WHICH I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE, EVEN PEOPLE WHO ARE KIND OF CIVIL WAR BUFFS, PROBABLY DON'T REMEMBER.

SO, THE FIRST QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU IS, WHAT MADE YOU TAKE A LOOK AT IT?

>> IT'S REALLY AN OVERLOOKED MOMENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE CIVIL WAR, BECAUSE THE TRIAL NEVER TOOK PLACE.

DAVIS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE CONFEDERACY, THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF OF THE CONFEDERATE ARMY, WAS ARRESTED SOON AFTER THE WAR ENDED, IN MAY OF 1865.

PEOPLE THOUGHT HE WOULD BE BROUGHT TO TRIAL FOR TREASON AND WAR CRIMES RIGHT AWAY, AND THAT THAT WOULD SET THE STAGE FOR A WHOLE CHAIN OF EVENTS THAT MANY OTHER CONFEDERATE GENERALS AND LEADERS WOULD BE PUT ON TRIAL, AS WELL.

HIS WAS TO BE THE TEST CASE.

AND THERE WAS A WHOLE BUNCH OF REASONS WHY THE TRIAL NEVER CAME OFF.

IT SORT OF STRETCHED ON FOR FOUR YEARS BEFORE THE THING FINALLY RESOLVED.

AND I THINK THEREFORE CIVIL WAR HISTORIANS KIND OF SET IT ASIDE AS ANNER RELEVANCY.

IT ASSUMES A NEW KIND OF RELEVANCE IN THIS MOMENT TODAY, BECAUSE OF THE UPCOMING CRIMINAL TRIALS OF DONALD TRUMP, RIGHT?

SO, DAVIS WAS NOT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, HE WAS PRESIDENT OF THE CONFEDERACY, BUT REALLY, THE ONLY EX-PRESIDENT TO BE INDICTED IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> THE RESONANCE OF IT, DID THAT IMMEDIATELY JUMP OUT TO YOU?

>> YEAH, SO, I'M WORKING ON A BOOK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF FAILED ATTEMPTS TO AMEND THE CONSTITUTION.

SO, I WAS LOOKING AT THE CIVIL WAR AND RECONSTRUCTION, AND THERE ARE ALL THESE EFFORTS TO PROPOSE AMENDMENTS TO NARROW THE DEFINITION OF TREASON, TO MAKE FORMING AN ARMED INSURRECTION TO OVERTHROW THE U.S. GOVERNMENT UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

WEIRD THINGS THAT I THOUGHT, WHY WAS THIS REALLY NECESSARY?

AND IT ALL POINTED TO THE ATTEMPT TO SUCCESSFULLY PROSECUTE DAVIS.

AND THE RESONANCE REALLY JUMPED OUT FOR ME.

MOSTLY BECAUSE, WE'RE HAVING THIS BIG CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENT IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY ABOUT SECTION 3 OF THE 14th AMENDMENT, THE SO-CALLED DISQUALIFICATION CLAUSE, WHICH PROVIDES PEOPLE WHO TOOK AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION, BUT THEN ENGAGED IN INSURRECTION AGAINST THE UNITED STATES WERE AUTOMATICALLY INELIGIBLE FOR FEDERAL OFFICE.

IT WAS REALLY WRITTEN FOR JEFFERSON DAVIS.

SO, BECAUSE THAT PROVISION IS BEING USED NOW OR PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO USE IT TO CHALLENGE TRUMP'S PLACE ON THE BALLOT IN STATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, IT SEEMED KIND OF URGENT TO ME TO -- WELL, WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO JEFFERSON DAVIS?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS STRIKING, THERE WERE SEVERAL REASONS WHY THE TRIAL NEVER TOOK PLACE, AND SOME OF THOSE WERE SORT OF PHILOSOPHICAL, SOME OF THOSE WERE CONSTITUTIONAL, AND SOME OF THOSE WERE TACTICAL, PERHAPS THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE WAS THE QUESTION OF, WHAT IS TREASON?

YOU KNOW, WHAT IS -- WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF TREASON?

SO YOU CAN TALK ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, SO, TREASON IS DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND, AGAIN, IN AN 1862 WLAU LAW, TREASON IS LEVELING WAR AGAINST THE UNITED STATES OR PROVIDING AID AND COMFORT TO ITS ENEMIES.

SO, IT SEEMS -- ONE NEWSPERSON, IF WE CAN'T CONVICT THIS PERSON OF TREASON, WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF TREASON?

IT SEEMS SORT OF FB THAT OBVIOUS THAT THIS WAS THE RIGHT CHARGE.

WHAT WAS TRICKY ABOUT IT, POLITICALLY, WAS THAT DAVIS WAS GOING TO ARGUE, IT WAS ANTICIPATED AND HIS LEGAL COUNSEL SUGGESTED AS MUCH, THAT HE COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE COMMITTED TREASON AGAINST THE UNITED STATES, BECAUSE WHEN MISSISSIPPI SECEDED, HE WAS IN THE SENATE, IN 1861, HE FORFEITED HIS U.S.

CITIZENSHIP.

DURING THE WHOLE OF THE CIVIL WAR, WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT OF THE CONFEDERACY, HE WAS NOT A U.S. CITIZEN.

YOU CAN'T COMMIT TREASON AGAINST A FOREIGN COUNTRY.

SO, THEREFORE, THE CHARGE MADE NO SENSE.

WHETHER THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SUCCESSFUL DEFENSE IS ONE QUESTION.

BUT FROM THE U.S. GOVERNMENT'S POINT OF VIEW, IT WOULD BE A BAD PIECE OF POLITICAL WORK TO GIVE HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE THAT CASE.

BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY, HE WOULD BE ARGUING THAT SECEDING FROM THE UNION HAD BEEN CONSTITUTIONAL, WHICH WAS REALLY ONE OF THE THINGS THE CIVIL WAR WAS FOUGHT OVER, WAS WHETHER STATES HAVE A RIGHT TO SIMPLY SECEDE.

AND HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO USE THE OPPORTUNITY OF HIS TRIAL, IN FACT, HE DID NOT WANT TO BE PARDONED, HE WANTED TO HAVE THE PUBLIC STAGE TO ARGUE THAT THE -- THAT SECESSION HAD BEEN CONSTITUTIONAL.

IN MUCH THE SAME WAY YOU MIGHT SAY THAT TRUMP LOVES TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAY HE WON THE 2020 ELECTION.

THE TRIMS GIVE HIM AN OPPORTUNITY TO USE A COURTROOM AS A CAMPAIGN PLATFORM.

>> THE TRIAL NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED, BUT A TRIAL DATE WAS SET.

AND HERE IS ANOTHER THING THAT -- ANOTHER REMARKABLE THING THAT I'M NOT SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD KNOW, IS THAT BLACK MEN WERE ACTUALLY SEATED AS JURORS, WAITING TO, YOU KNOW, FOR THIS TRIAL TO PROCEED, WHICH IT DIDN'T.

SET THE SCENE FOR US, FIRST OF ALL, AND TELL US WHY YOU THINK THAT'S SO IMPORTANT.

>> YEAH, I DO THINK THIS IS THE ONE OVERLOOKED EXPLANATION FOR WHY THE TRIAL NEVER TOOK PLACE, I THINK THE CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENT IS COMPELLING AND SURELY PLAYED A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT ROLE, BUT BLACK MEN WERE PRETTY MUCH UNIFORMLY DENIED THE RIGHT TO SERVE ON JURIES, THERE WERE EXCEPTIONS.

SO, THERE WAS A RECENT STUDY THAT IN TEXAS, IN 500 TRIALS OF WHITE MEN ACCUSED OF KILLING BLACK MEN, TRIED BEFORE ALL WHITE JURIES, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE ACCUSED WAS FOUND NOT GUILTY.

JUST THE ABSENCE OF BLACK MEN ON TRIAL JURIES IS AN ENORMOUS SOURCE OF INEQUALITY.

>> WAIT, WAIT.

YOU'RE SAYING IN ONE STATE ALONE, ONE STATE ALONE?

THAT THERE WERE 500 TRIALS WHERE WHITE MEN WERE ACCUSED OF KILLING BLACK MEN, BLACK PEOPLE -- >> 1865 AND 1866.

THE TRIAL WAS SUPPOSED TO TAKE PLACE IN RICHMOND, VIRGINIA, WHICH HAD BEEN THE CAPITAL OF THE CONFEDERACY.

WHITE MEN HAVE BEEN DISQUALIFIED FOR THEIR PARTICIPATION IN THE REBELLION AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

THE JUDGE IN THE CASE IN VIRGINIA, A GUY NAMED JOHN UNDERWOOD, WAS A RADICAL REPUBLICAN, REALLY COMMITTED TO EQUAL RIGHTS.

CONGRESS HAD ENDORSED THE IDEA THAT BLACK MEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO SERVE ON JURIES, THIS WAS PART OF THE DEBATE OVER THE 14th AND 15th AMENDMENT, AND, YOU KNOW, ASSURED, GUARANTEEING EQUAL RIGHTS REGARDLESS OF RACE.

UNDERWOOD APPOINTED BLACK MEN TO THE GRAND JURY CONDUCTING THE INVESTIGATION.

IT WAS A MIXED RACE JURY.

AND HE PLEDGED THAT THE TRIAL JURY WOULD BE A MIXTURE OF BLACK AND WHITE MEN.

IT WAS SUCH AN EXTRAORDINARY THING, AND SUCH A NOVELTY, THERE'S ACTUALLY A BEAUTIFUL PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN OF THE 24 MEN IMPANELED TO BE THE JURY POOL.

12 BLACK MEN AND 12 WHITE MEN.

THE JURY THAT WOULD HAVE TRIED JEFFERSON DAVIS.

SO, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN DAVIS' LAWYERS AND DAVIS AND DAVIS' WIFE AND THE PROSECUTION, THERE'S AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ANXIETY ABOUT THE IDEA THAT A JURY THAT, IT WILL BE HALF COMPOSED OF BLACK MEN, COULD CONVICT A WHITE MAN TO DEATH, TO BE HANGED.

SO, THERE'S JUST THIS -- WHOA, IT WOULD BE GOOD TO PROSECUTE THIS GUY FOR TREASON.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WE'LL HAVE ANOTHER WAR ON OUR HANDS IF WE -- TREMENDOUS ANXIETY ABOUT THE RISK OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE, OF ACTUALLY CONDUCTING THE PROSECUTION.

AND VERY LITTLE CONCERN FOR THE RISK OF THE FAILURE TO PROSECUTE HIM.

LIKE WHAT WOULD THAT MEAN OVER THE COURSE OF AMERICAN HISTORY FOR THE LEADER OF THE CONFEDERATE ARMY TO GO AWAY UNSCATHED?

>> DAVIS HAD BEEN ARRESTED, I MEAN, THE FACT IS, HE HAD BEEN ARRESTED, HE HAD BEEN IN A MILITARY PRISON.

HE WAS PRESENTED FOR TRIAL, SO, HOW COME THE TRIAL DIDN'T GO FORWARD?

>> SO, THERE'S A LOT OF HESITANCY ABOUT GIVING HIM A PLATFORM TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT FOR THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF SECESSION.

THERE'S THE PROBLEM THAT THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT WOULD HAVE TO SIT AT THE TRIAL ITSELF AND HE PLANNED TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT, IN FACT, DID RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN 1868.

HE NEEDED WHITE DEMOCRATIC VOTERS.

HE DIDN'T WANT TO SIT AT THIS TRIAL.

SO HE, IN FACT, ONCE THE 14th AMENDMENT WAS RATIFIED IN 1868, HE CONFERRED WITH THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR DAVIS AND SAID, I HAVE AN IDEA.

HERE'S HOW YOU CAN GET THESE CHARGES DISMISSED.

SAY THAT SECTION 3 OF THE 14th AMENDMENT, WHICH HAS JUST BEEN RATIFIED, ACTUALLY PENALIZES HIM, BECAUSE HE -- IT PREVENTS HIM FROM HOLDING FEDERAL OFFICE AGAIN, AND TO TRY HIM FOR TREASON WOULD AMOUNT IN A KIND OF FLIMSY WAY TO DOUBLE JEOPARDY.

>> THAT WAS EXACTLY THE ARGUMENT THAT THE SENATE REPUBLICAN LEADER MITCH McCONNELL MADE IN SAYING WHY HE WASN'T GOING TO VOTE FOR IMPEACHMENT FOR DONALD TRUMP, HE SAID, WELL, BECAUSE HE'S GOING TO GO TO A CRIMINAL TRIAL.

>> YEAH, THERE, TOO, AS WITH A CHIEF JUSTICE THAT GAVE THE SUGGESTION TO THE DEFENSE.

McCONNELL WAS LOOKING OUT FOR HIS OWN NARROW POLITICAL INTERESTS, AND NOT THINKING ABOUT WHAT WOULD JUSTICE MEAN, HOW WOULD THE COUNTRY RIGHT ITSELF AFTER THIS TREMENDOUS DISLOCATION?

700,000 PEOPLE DIED IN THE CIVIL WAR.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE CONFEDERACY WOULD NEVER BE HELD TO ACCOUNT.

PARTLY THROUGH THE -- THE COURSE OF AMBITION, ON THE PART OF CERTAIN MEN.

SO, IN A FORMAL SENSE, THE WAY HE GOT OFF WAS BY HIS DEFENSE ENTERING THIS MOTION REGARDING SECTION 3 OF THE 14th AMENDMENT.

ULTIMATELY, THE GOVERNMENT JUST DROPPED THE CASE.

THEY DECIDED NOT TO PURSUE THE CASE, AND THEN ANDREW JOHNSON ISSUED A PARDON AND THERE'S ALL THIS MOVEMENT BY 1870 OR SO FOR AMNESTY FOR ANYONE INVOLVED IN THE CONFEDERACY.

THE COUNTRY SORT OF DECIDING, WE NEED TO MOVE ON.

>> LET'S FAST FORWARD TO THE CURRENT DAY AND WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS WHOLE EPISODE THAT -- THAT STRIKES YOU AS RELEVANT TO THE CURRENT MOMENT?

AND FRANKLY, WHY YOU'RE SO CONCERNED ABOUT IT.

>> THE TRUMP DEFENSE TEAM IN THE WASHINGTON, D.C.

FELONY CASE REGARDING EFFORTS TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION FILED A MOTION SAYING, ALL THE CHARGES AGAINST TRUMP IN THIS CASE SHOULD BE DISMISSED BECAUSE HE ENJOYS PRESIDENTIAL IMMUNITY.

AND THE JUDGE, JUDGE CHUTKAN IN THIS CASE JUST ISSUED A RULING JUST LAST WEEK DISMISSING THE MOTION, SAYING, JUST BECAUSE NO PRESIDENT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN CRIMINALLY CONVICTED DOESN'T MEAN IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO DO IT.

THAT DOESN'T CONSTITUTE A PRECEDENT.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S IMPORTANT ABOUT NOT SETTING ASIDE THE ATTEMPT TO PROSECUTE JEFFERSON DAVIS IS, YOU KNOW, I WOULD JUST PERSONALLY -- I'M A VERY CONFLICT DIVERSE PERSON.

I COULD SEE, AFTER THE CIVIL WAR, THINKING, UGH, YOU KNOW, IF WE PROSECUTE THIS GUY, IT'S JUST GOING TO BE A MESS, RIGHT?

THE COUNTRY'S GOING TO BE UP IN ARMS ABOUT IT, HALF THE COUNTRY'S GOING TO THINK HE'S NOT GUILTY, IT WAS A POLITICAL PROSECUTION.

ANDREW JOHNSON, THE PRESIDENT, IS SUBJECT TO AN IMPEACHMENT.

IT'S JUST GOING TO BE -- WE'VE BEEN THROUGH SO MUCH SUFFERING, THE WAR WAS BRUTAL, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO RECONSTRUCT THE COUNTRY, LET'S JUST LET THIS GO.

AND MOVE PAST IT.

YOU SEE A LITTLE BIT OF THAT, YOU KNOW, IN -- IN JUST HOW THE COUNTRY HAS ME TABLIZED THE INSURRECTION OF JANUARY 6th.

WE'RE COMING UP ON THE THREE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF IT.

YOU JUST THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, DAY OF, WERE OUTRAGED, YOU KNOW, TWO WEEKS LATER, EH, YOU KNOW, IT WAS JUST TOURISM GONE A LITTLE AWRY.

THERE'S NARROW POLITICAL MOTIVATIONS ON THE PART OF, I THINK, PEOPLE QUITE QUESTIONABLE ETHICS, BUT THEN THERE'S ALSO THE COUNTRY'S DESIRE TO JUST MOVE PAST IT.

THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY PEOPLE DON'T WANT TRUMP OR BIDEN TO RUN.

THEY WANT TO PUT THIS MOMENT IN AMERICAN POLITICAL HISTORY BEHIND US, AND SOMEHOW, I THINK THAT DIMINISHES THE RESOLUTION TO TRY TRUMP IN THESE MANY CASES.

PEOPLE WHO VALUE CIVIC PEACE.

IT HAS TO BE DONE.

IT HAS TO BE DONE.

AND YOU SEE WITH DAVIS THAT IT WAS REALLY ONE OF THE FIRST ACTS OF ABANDONING THE PROJECT OF RECONSTRUCTION AND ITS PROMISE FOR A FULLY MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY.

THIS TREMENDOUS EXPERIMENT THAT -- THAT WAS HUGELY IMPORTANT.

THE PROJECT OF FULLY GUARANTEEING EQUAL RIGHTS FOR AMERICANS REGARDLESS OF RACE.

PART OF THE ABANDONMENT OF THAT WAS SAYING, EH, LET'S JUST GET JEFF DAVIS GO.

IT WAS KIND OF THE FIRST MOVE OF, WELL, LET'S LET THE 14th -- LET'S PRETEND WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY EVER RATIFY THAT.

WE WON'T HONOR IT AS A SUPREME COURT.

WE WON'T GUARANTEE EQUAL RIGHTS.

WE WON'T FIGHT AGAINST LYNCHING.

WE WON'T SUPPRESS THE KLAN.

ALL THE THINGS THAT UNRAVELED THAT MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR RECONSTRUCTION TO BE REPLACED BY JIM CROW.

INSTEAD OF BY WHAT RECONSTRUCTION WAS MEANT TO BE.

I THINK WE HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IT MEANT TO SAY JEFF DAVIS CAN GET OFF SCOT FREE.

WHAT WOULD IT MEAN TO SAY, FOR TRUMP TO NOT HAVE BEEN INDICTED?

WHAT WOULD IT MEAN FOR CONGRESS TO NOT HAVE ATTEMPTED TO IMPEACH HIM?

WHO KNOWS WHAT A JURY WILL MAKE OF THESE CHARGES.

SURELY WE DO KNOW THIS.

IT WILL BE A MESS.

IT WILL BE A POLITICAL -- IT WILL BE PAINFUL, IT WILL BE ANGUISH, AMERICANS WILL BE DIVIDED ABOUT IT.

IT STILL HAS TO BE DONE.

>> YOU ASK IN THE PIECE, CAN DONALD TRUMP GET A FAIR TRIAL?

IS TRYING TRUMP THE BEST THING FOR THE NATION?

IS THE POSSIBILITY OF ACQUITTAL WORTH THE RISK?

EVERY TRIAL ON CHARGES RELATED TO THE INSURRECTION GIVES HIM A STAGE FOR MAKING THE CASE THAT HE WON THE 2020 ELECTION AND THE ACQUITTAL WILL BE TAKEN AS VINDICATION AND SUPPORTERS WILL QUESTION THE LEGITIMACY OF ANY CONVICTION.

BUT FAILURE TO TRY HIM IS AN A AFFRONT TO DECENCY AND DEMOCRACY.

>> I SAY THAT AS SOMEONE WHO WOULD RATHER THE TRIALS NOT TAKE PLACE.

"THE WASHINGTON POST" DID A FORUM IF TRUMP SHOULD BE TRIED AFTER HE LEAVES OFFICE, AND I WROTE AN OPINION ESSAY SAYING, YOU KNOW, NO, IT IS A TRADITION THAT WE ARE BLESSED TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE WE DON'T PROSECUTE AND SEND TO PRISON POLITICAL LEADERS WHEN A NEW PARTY TAKS OFFICE.

THAT'S NOT -- THAT'S NOT THE AMERICAN TRADITION.

WE HAVE A VERY -- WE ACCEPT THE OUTCOME OF ELECTIONS, AND WE MOVE ON.

AND FOR WHATEVER TRUMP HAD DONE IN OFFICE, YOU KNOW, WOULD BE THE BEST THING FOR THE COUNTRY TO MOVE ON.

THIS WAS BEFORE THE INSURRECTION.

BEFORE THE DOCUMENTS, THE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS.

AND, YOU KNOW, I -- ABSOLUTELY HAVE COME TO SEE, IT IS ESSENTIAL, AS MUCH AS IT APPEARS TO DEFY ALL PRECEDENT, IT IS ESSENTIAL TO THE RULE OF LAW, AND IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT A TRIVIAL MATTER, TO BRING CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST A PRESIDENT, NOR IS IT A TRIVIAL MATTER TO ATTEMPT TO OVERTHROW THE RESULTS OF A DEMOCRATIC ELECTION.

AND THERE HAS TO BE AN ATTEMPTED RECKONING WITH THAT.

THE PROCESS HAS TO PROCEED, BECAUSE WITHOUT IT, YOU'RE LEFT WITH THE KIND OF FAILURE TO RECON WITH THE CONFEDERACY, ESSENTIALLY.

IT'S A REDO OF THAT MOMENT.

IT'S VERY DIFFERENT SCALE, DIFFERENT POLITICAL MOMENTS, BUT THERE WAS A COST TO NOT HOLDING THE LEADERS OF THE CONFEDERACY ACCOUNTABLE FOR UNDERTAKING A REGIME TO DEFEND THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY.

THERE WAS A -- THERE WAS A COST AND IT WAS NOT BORN EQUALLY, NOR WILL THE FAILURE -- IF TRUMP MANAGES TO DELAY AND DELAY AND DELAY THIS TRIAL, THESE TRIALS, GETS RE-ELECTED AND PARDONS HIMSELF, THERE WILL BE A TREMENDOUS COST IN THE UNITED STATES, AND IT WILL NOT BE BORN EQUALLY.

>> HERE'S WHERE I HAVE TO ASK, IF YOU SHARED HIS POLITICS, DO YOU THINK YOU'D HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW OF IT?

>> YEAH, I DON'T THINK HIS POLICY AGENDA IS ON TRIAL AT ANY OF THESE CRIMINAL TRIALS.

WHATEVER MY OWN POLITICAL POSITIONS ARE IRRELEVANT HERE.

HE CAN WIN, IT'S A TRIAL.

THERE'S NOT A SECRET KABAL OF PEOPLE THAT CHOOSE HOW THESE THINGS WILL PROCEED.

THAT -- AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE -- IF YOU DON'T HAVE FAITH IN TRIAL BY JURY, WHAT IS THERE LEFT IN A WORLD THAT WE SHARE THAT YOU TRUST TO ARBITRATE TRUTH?

THAT IS THE ONE INSTITUTION THAT AMERICANS STILL HAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF FAITH IN.

THAT'S MY CASE THERE.

I DO THINK IT'S ESSENTIAL THAT THE PROSECUTION BE ABOVE AND BEYOND FAIR, THAT THERE BE NO BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY WE PROSECUTE THIS GUY.

I THINK THERE'S DIFFERENT QUALITY TO THE INDICTMENTS IN THE DIFFERENT JURISDICTIONS, WHERE TRUMP HAS BEEN INDICTED.

I THINK THE D.C. CASE IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT.

BUT I DON'T THINK YOU -- YOU, FOR A SECOND, AS SOMEONE WHO IS INTERESTED IN SEEING THE PROSECUTION PROCEED, EVER CUT A CORNER, AND I DO THINK THAT THE DEGREE TO WHICH IN MANY REALMS IN AMERICAN LIFE AND POLITICS AND CULTURE, OUR STANDARDS HAVE SHIFTED TO ADJUST FOR TRUMPISM THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN ERROR.

I THINK THE RIGHT THING, THIS -- STEERING THE SHIP STRAIGHT, IS TO SAY, WE HAVE NO CHOICE.

THIS -- THIS IS PROBABLY GOING TO GET HIM RE-ELECTED.

WE HAVE TO INDICT HIM ANYWAY.

>> JILL LEPORE, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> CHALLENGES AHEAD.

>>> AND FINALLY, AFTER A YEAR THAT REDEFINED THE MEANING OF STARDOM, TAYLOR SWIFT HAS BEEN NAMED "TIME MAGAZINE'S" PERSON OF THE YEAR.

♪ IT'S ME ♪ ♪ HI ♪ ♪ I'M THE PROBLEM ♪ ♪ IT'S ME ♪ ♪ AT TEA TIME ♪ ♪ EVERYBODY AGREES ♪ ♪ I'LL STARE DIRECTLY AT THE SUN ♪ ♪ BUT NEVER IN THE MIRROR ♪ ♪ IT MUST BE EXHAUSTING ♪ ♪ ALWAYS ROOTING FOR THE ANTI-HERO ♪ >> BUT UNLIKE HER SONG "ANTI-HERO" SUGGESTS, "TIME" CHOSE SWIFT FOR BEING THE HERO OF HER OWN STORY.

BETWEEN HER MULTIMILLION DOLLAR "ERAS" TOUR, BREAKING THE BOX OFFICE WITH HER CONCERT FILM, AND THREE NUMBER ONE ALBUMS, SECURING HER NAME IN HISTORY AS THE ARTIST WHO TOOK ON THE MUSIC INDUSTRY TO OWN HER OWN WORK.

AND SHE WON.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.