>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> SHIFTING DIPLOMATIC SANDS AS TRUMP RETURNS TO THE STAGE, ONE OF UKRAINE'S NCHEST EXITS.

I SPEAK TO GABRIELIUS LANDSBERGIS ABOUT THE FUTURE.

>>> THEN -- >> NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A LARGER PROJECT.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUILDING SYRIA.

>> AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH SYRIA'S REBEL LEADER WHO FWELS THE GOALS OF THE REBEL COALITION AS THEY SWEEP RAPIDLY ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

PLUS -- >> THEY ONLY THINK ABOUT ONE THING.

ABOUT THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

>> FRENCH PRESIDENT MACRON VOWS TO CARRY ON AMID DEADLOCK.

WHAT'S BEHIND THE POLITICAL TURMOIL?

I ASKED THE VETERAN FRENCH REPORTER.

ALSO AHEAD -- TSUNAMI RACE AGAINST TIME.

HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS TO DIRECTOR DANIEL BOGADO AND BARRY HIRSHORN ABOUT THE THE TIDAL WAVE THAT SWEPT PARTS OF ASIA.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

PRESIDENT BIDEN'S DAYS IN THE WHITE HOUSE MAY BE NUMBERED BUT HIS ADMINISTRATION'S SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE IS SHOWING NO SIGNS OF SLOWING.

THE LATEST AS A $725 MILLION SECURITY PACKAGE AND A PLEDGE TO DELIVER HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ARTILLERY ROUNDS AND THOUSANDS MORE ROCKETS BEFORE MID-JANUARY.

NOW IT COMES AS LIKELY POLICY CHANGE LOOMS ON THE HORIZON IN THE FORM OF PRESIDENT-ELECT DONALD TRUMP.

BUT THE CHALLENGES IN EASTERN EUROPE EXTEND BEYOND UKRAINE'S BORDERS.

ROMANIA'S CONSTITUTIONAL COURT HAS ANNULLED THE FIRST ROUND OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WON NARROWLY BY A FAR RIGHT ULTRA CANDIDATE.

IN GEORGIA, A WEEK OF ANTI-GOVERNMENT DEMONSTRATIONS HAS BEEN MET BY A BRUTAL POLICE RESPONSE.

AMID ALL OF THIS, ONE OF UKRAINE'S MOST VOCAL SUPPORTERS IS LEAVING OFFICE.

GABRIELIUS LANDSBERGIS'S POLITICAL PARTY WAS DEFEATED IN OCTOBER ELECTIONS AND HE IS NOW STEPPING DOWN AS BOTH HIS COUNTRY'S TOP DIPLOMAT AND CHAIR OF HIS POLITICAL PARTY.

HE JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

MR. FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, WHAT ARE THESE POLITICAL CHANGES IN LITHUANIA SIGNAL AND MEAN IN TERMS OF, LET'S START WITH UKRAINE.

LITHUANIA'S POLICY TOWARD ITS SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE WHICH HAS BEEN STAUNCH SINCE RUSSIA'S LARGER INVASION IN 2022.

ARE THERE ANY CHANGES ENSUING IN THAT POLICY WITH YOUR DEPARTURE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, VERY GOOD TO BE BACK ON THE SHOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

AS WITH ANY NEW GOVERNMENT, THE GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE TO PROVE THE DIRECTION IS NOT CHANGING.

I THINK THAT LITHUANIA'S POSITION WHEN IT COMES TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE DOES NOT COME FROM SANE POLITICIAN.

IT DOES NOT COME FROM A SINGLE PARTY.

IT COMES FROM THE PEOPLE WHO DO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S AT STAKE IN UKRAINE.

AT THIS POINT I HAVE FULL CONFIDENCE THAT LITHUANIANS WILL REMAIN COMMITTED TO UKRAINE'S VICTORY IN THE WAR THAT HAS BEEN WAGING FOR THREE YEARS.

>> I KNOW YOU'VE SPENT TIME NOW IN THE U.S. AND WASHINGTON, D.C. AS WELL.

AS YOU REFLECT BACK ON YOUR TIME IN OFFICE, WHAT ARE YOUR VIEWS, YOUR CONCERNS, PERHAPS, GOING FORWARD IN TERMS OF NATO'S ALLIANCE AND THE STABILITY OF THE E.U.

ITSELF AS YOU KNOW WHEN WE'VE SPENT A WILL THE OF TIME COVERING, BOTH THE POLITICAL WEAKNESS NOW IN FRANCE AND GERMANY, TWO OF THE LARGEST COUNTRIES WITHIN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

>> IT'S A GREAT TIME OF INSTABILITY, HONESTLY.

WE SEE THE PICTURE, THE WHOLE PICTURE OF SO MANY COUNTRIES UNDERGOING TRANSITION.

EITHER JUST OUT OF THE ELECTION OR GOING TOWARD ELECTION LIKE GERMANY.

WHEN WE SEE WHAT RUSSIA IS CURRENTLY DOING WITH ENORMOUS PRESSURE ON UKRAINE.

WELL THE TERRORIST ACTIVITIES AROUND EUROPE, ESPECIALLY IN THE EASTERN FLANK.

MEDDLING IN ELECTIONS, PRESSURING COUNTRIES OUTSIDE OF EUROPEAN UNION SUCH AS MALDOVA OR GEORGIA, CLEARLY IT IS NOW TIME THAT WE NEED TO HAVE LEADERSHIP.

WE NEED TO HAVE A CLEAR POSITION THAT WE NEED TO PUSH BACK.

AND IT DEFINITELY STARTS IN UKRAINE.

I SEE THAT AS A CULPRIT.

IF UKRAINE IS PUT IN A STRONGER, THE STRONGEST POSSIBLE POSITION, IS ABLE TO PUSH RUSSIA OUT, I THINK THIS IS WHERE RUSSIA'S INFLUENCE ON THE WHOLE, I WOULD SAY, ON THE WHOLE CONTINENT WILL DIMINISH.

IT WILL GET WEAKER.

THEY WILL NOT HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO RETAIN PRESSURE THAT THEY CURRENTLY DO HAVE.

AND ONE OF THE THING THAT WE'RE SEEING, I THINK IT IS ALSO CONNECTED TO WHAT I'M SAYING IS SYRIA.

IT IS NOT COMPLETELY OUT OF THE BLUE THAT SYRIAN REBELS ARE ABLE TO PUSH ASSAD'S REGIME OUT EVERY SINGLE DAY.

IT'S BECAUSE RUSSIANS ARE NO LONGER SUPPORTING AS THEY DID IN THE PAST.

THEY'RE TOO BUSY FIGHTING IN UKRAINE.

SO WE HAVE TO WIN IN UKRAINE IN ORDER TO WIN ELSEWHERE.

>> TWO MONUMENTAL EVENTS LED TO US WHERE THINGS STAND NOW IN SYRIA.

AS YOU KNOW, ONE IS RUSSIA'S INVASION IN 2022, WITHDRAWING A NUMBER OF ITS FORCES THERE IN SUPPORT OF ASSAD REGIME IN SYRIA AND OBVIOUSLY, THE SECOND BEING OCTOBER 7th AND THE WEAKNESS NOW UPON HEZBOLLAH WHICH HAS BEEN A LARGE SUPPORTER OF ASSAD AS WELL.

LET ME GET YOU TO REACT TO WHAT WE'VE HEARD FROM THE FORMER COMMANDER.

IN COMMENTS HE SAID TWO WEEKS AGO ABOUT THE FACT IN HIS VIEW, WE ARE ALREADY IN WORLD WAR III WITH NORTH KOREAN SOLDIERS NOW ASSISTING IN THE FIGHTING IN RUSSIA.

OBVIOUSLY, IRAN ASSISTING RUSSIA AS WELL.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT?

OR DO YOU THINK THAT IT IS MORE HYPERBOLIC AT THIS MOMENT?

>> LOOK, THE WAY WE CLASSIFY RUSSIAN ACTIVITIES OUTSIDE OF UKRAINE AND I SEE THAT WE'RE STRUGGLING.

SOME PEOPLE CALL IT HYBRID ACTIVITIES WHEN A CABLE IS TORN.

A BUILDING, A SHOPPING MALL IS BEING BURNED DOWN.

BUT WE KNOW WHO IS BEHIND IT.

WE KNOW WHAT GOALS RUSSIA HAS WHEN THEY DO THESE SORTS OF THINGS.

IT IS TO PUT PRESSURE ON US, TO ACHIEVE POLITICAL GOALS.

SO WHAT IT IS IF IT ISN'T A WAR?

I BELIEVE AND I HAVE A SENSE THAT THE REASON WE ARE NOT ADMITTING THESE, THE CONDITIONS THAT WE ARE CURRENTLY IN IS BECAUSE WE ARE WORRIED AS WHAT WE WOULD NEED TO DO IN TURN.

IF WE SAY RUSSIA IS FIGHTING A WAR, HIDDEN IN COVER BUT STILL A WAR AGAINST THOSE WHO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

THEN WE NEED TO FIGHT BACK.

>> WHAT DOES RESOLUTION LOOK LIKE?

FROM THE MOST OPTIMISTIC VIEW, THAT WE HAVE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TAKING OFFICE IN A FEW WEEKS TIME.

DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID, WAS CAMPAIGNING ALL ALONG THAT HE WOULD BRING THIS WAR TO AN END ON DAY ONE.

IT WOULD PROBABLY, ONE WOULD ASSUME, TAKE A LOT LONGER THAN THAT.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, SOME OF HIS TOP ADVISERS INCLUDING LIEUTENANT ARMY KELLOGG WERE SEEING MORE OF WHAT A POTENTIAL TRUMP POLICY AND PLAN MAY LOOK LIKE.

THAT WOULD ENTAIL A CARROT AND STICK APPROACH.

A BIT MORE INSIGHT OF WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE.

HALTING MILITARY AID PERHAPS TO KYIV UNLESS IT AGREES TO BASICALLY FREEZE WHERE THINGS STAND RIGHT NOW WITH RUSSIA CONTROLLING NEARLY 20% OF THE EAST AND THE CRIMEA, AS WELL.

AND AGREEING TO NEGOTIATIONS.

ON THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT, THEY SAY THEY WOULD BOOST ASSISTANCE IF VLADIMIR PUTIN DOESN'T AGREE TO THOSE IN TERMS OF EITHER.

WHAT COULD YOU MAKE OF THIS PLAN?

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT IS RATHER AN ILLUSION THAT WE CAN HAVE ANY SORT OF NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN UKRAINE AND RUSSIA IF UKRAINE IS NOT PUT IN A STRONGER POSITION.

OTHERWISE, IT IS A CALL FOR CAPITULATION.

SO INCOMING ADMINISTRATION AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAVE ALL THE INSTRUMENTS THAT THEY NEED TO PUT UKRAINE IN THE STRONGEST POSSIBLE POSITION.

IT IS A QUESTION OF ADMINISTERING SUPPORT.

PROVIDING ASSISTANCE IN A WAY THAT WOULD SUIT THE PROGRAM AND IDEAS THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE.

OTHERWISE, IF ANYTHING ELSE, IT IS A CONTINUATION OF A VERY SLOW PROCESS THAT HAS BEEN ONGOING FOR BASICALLY THREE YEARS WHERE UKRAINE IS WEAKER, RUSSIA IS STRONGER.

THAT LEADS TO ONLY ONE THING.

IT WOULD BE CALLED AN UNJUST PEACE.

YEAH.

YOU COULD HAVE A SITUATION WHERE GUNS ARE NO LONGER FIRING BUT IT IS NOT AN ACTUAL PEACE THAT UKRAINIANS WOULD WANT OR WOULD GIVE THE STABILITY TO THE EUROPEAN CONTINENT.

AND HONESTLY, MY COUNTRY WAS OCCUPIED FOR 50 YEARS BY SOVIET UNION.

AND I CALL THAT ALSO AN UNJUST PEACE.

THE GUNS WERE NOT FIRING BUT WE WERE NOT FREE.

WE CANNOT ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN IN EUROPE AGAIN.

>> IS IT CAPITULATION IF ULTIMATELY WE DO SEE TRUMP FORCE UKRAINE TO AGREE NOT TO PURSUE NATO MEMBERSHIP?

>> I THINK ANYTHING THAT DOESN'T GUARANTEE UKRAINE'S FREEDOM AND SECURITY LONG TERM DOES NOT WORK IN FAVOR, NEITHER FOR UKRAINE, NOR FOR EUROPE, NOR FOR THE UNITED STATES.

WE HAVE TO SEE THAT AS A CONNECTED PICTURE.

NOW THE POLITICAL THEATERS IN EUROPE, ESPECIALLY TRANSATLANTIC AND THE PACIFIC, THEY ARE CONNECTED.

IF WE CANNOT SECURE UKRAINE, THEN THE DOMINOS WILL CONTINUE FALLING.

AND I'M SURE YOU KNOW THAT PEOPLE IN TAIWAN ARE WATCHING HOW THE WAR WILL END IN UKRAINE.

AND THEY'RE CALCULATING THIS, WHAT IT MEANS TO THEM.

OTHER DEMOCRACIES IN THE PACIFIC ARE DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

OTHER COUNTRIES IN EUROPE ARE DOING THE SAME THING.

SO YOU KNOW, IT IS CLEAR THAT IN ORDER TO MAKE UKRAINE SAFER AND SECURE, IT HAS TO GET SECURITY GUARANTEES.

WHAT OTHER SECURITY GUARANTEES WORK IN EUROPE?

THE ONLY ONES THAT WORK IS ARTICLE 5 FROM WASHINGTON TREATY, FROM NATO.

>> FINALLY, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK WHAT WE'VE SEEN NOW TAKE PLACE IN GEORGIA, SPECIFICALLY, AND THE VIOLENCE THERE ON THE STREETS FOLLOWING THEIR PRIME MINISTER ANNOUNCING THAT THEY WOULD DELAY THEIR GOVERNMENT'S EU BID TO 2028.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT MOSCOW VIEWS FAVORABLY.

MANY, MANY, MANY GEORGIANS DO NOT.

SINCE THEN, THE BALTIC STATES INCLUDING LITHUANIA HAVE AGREED TO IMPOSE NATIONAL SANCTIONS ON GEORGIAN OFFICIALS CRACKING DOWN ON THESE PROTESTS.

AS I NOTED, THEY HAVE GROWN INCREASINGLY VIOLENT.

WHAT DO YOU HOME THESE SANCTIONS WILL ACTUALLY PRODUCE ASIDE FROM THE SYMBOLISM ITSELF?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I AGREE THAT IT IS RATHER SYMBOLIC.

IT SENDS A MESSAGE THAT THEY ARE NOT ALONE.

THERE ARE POLITICIANS IN EUROPE CLOSELY WATCHING AND TAKING DECISIONS.

IT'S A SIGNAL TO THE LEADERS OF GEORGIA THAT THEY WILL NOT GO UNPUNISHED BECAUSE WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO GEORGIAN PEOPLE IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.

AND LASTLY, I TRULY HOPE THAT THIS WILL WORK AS AN INSPIRATION FOR COUNTRIES IN EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES AS WELL TO TAKE SIMILAR DECISIONS.

AND I'M VERY GLAD TO HEAR THAT THE ADMINISTRATION, THE OUTGOING ADMINISTRATION HERE IN WASHINGTON, IS ALREADY THINKING ABOUT THE WAYS, HOW TO PUT ADDITIONAL PRESSURE TO STOP THE VIOLENCE.

TO STOP THE UNACCEPTABLE VIOLENCE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT COULD BE DISCUSSED IN THIS PERSPECTIVE IS IN 2010, WHEN THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT CRACKED DOWN, ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES THEY CRACKED DOWN ON THE PROTESTERS IN MINSK, THERE WAS AN EMBARGO ISSUED.

A EUROPEAN EMBARGO ON ALL THE WEAPON THAT'S THE GOVERNMENT USES AGAINST ITS CITIZENS.

I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO START THINKING ABOUT THE SAME THING.

IF GOVERNMENT IS USING WESTERN EQUIPMENT AGAINST ITS PEOPLE, WHY ARE WE STILL EXPORTING IT?

>> GABRIELIUS LANDSBERGIS, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

BEST OF LUCK TO YOU IN YOUR FUTURE ENDEAVORS.

WE'VE ALREADY APPRECIATED YOUR CANDOR AND JOINING US ON THE SHOW OVER THE YEARS.

WE APPRECIATED THIS TIME AS WELL.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> TURNING NOW TO EXCLUSIVE REPORTING FROM INSIDE SYRIA WHERE REBELS ARE ADVANCING FURTHER SOUTH TOWARD THE KEY CITY OF HOMS.

JUST A DAY AFTER CAPTURING THE MAJOR CITY OF HAMA.

A NEW UPRISING IS ALSO UNDERWAY IN THE SOUTHERN SYRIAN PROVINCE OF DARAA WHERE A SEPARATE REBEL GROUP SAYS ITS DESTINATION IS DAMASCUS.

OUR CORRESPONDENT SECURED AN INTERVIEW.

SHE TALKS ABOUT THE PRIMARY GOALS OF THIS OFFENSIVE IN HIS FIRST MAJOR SITDOWN WITH A TV NEWS ORGANIZATION IN YEARS.

>> AFTER TAKING LEPALEPPO, HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THIS?

>> Translator: FROM A MILITARY PERSPECTIVE, WHAT COMES AFTER HAMA WILL NOT BE THE SAME AS WHAT CAME BEFORE.

HOWEVER, I PREFER NOT TO BE OVERLY OPTIMISTIC DURING THE BATTLE.

I LIKE TO REMAIN CAUTIOUS AND VIGILANT TO AVOID COMPLACENCY AND ENSURE WE DON'T SUFFER LOSSES WHILE BELIEVING WE ARE SAFE.

>> WHAT COMES AFTER THIS?

WHAT IS AFTER HAMA?

>> Translator: THE COURSE OF THE BATTLE, AS FOR THE SECRETS OF THE BATTLE, LET'S LEAVE THEM TO THE UNFOLDING EVENTS.

YOU WILL WITNESS THEM IN REALITY WHICH IS BETTER THAN DISCUSSING THEM NOW.

>> IN A MATTER OF DAYS, YOU HAVE TAKEN MAJOR CITIES.

WHAT HAS CHANGED?

HOW ARE YOU ABLE TO DO THIS NOW?

>> Translator: IN RECENT YEARS, THERE HAS BEEN A UNIFICATION OF INTERNAL OPINIONS AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF INSTITUTIONAL STRUCTURES WITHIN THE LIBERATED AREAS OF SYRIA.

THIS INSTITUTIONALIZATION INCLUDED THE RESTRUCTURING WITHIN MILITARY FACTIONS.

THEY ENTERED UNIFIED TRAINING CAMPS AND DEVELOPED A SENSE OF DISCIPLINE.

THIS DISCIPLINE ALLOWED THEM WITH GOD'S GUIDANCE TO ENGAGE IN A BATTLE IN AN ORGANIZED MANNER, THE PROGRESS AND EXECUTION OF PLAN HAVE BEEN SWIFT WITH CLEAR COMMUNICATION AND ADHERENCE TO COMMANDS.

THEY STOP WHERE THEY SHOULD STOP AND WITHDRAW WHERE THEY SHOULD WITHDRAW.

IT HAS GONE FROM CHAOS AND RANDOMNESS TO A STATE OF ORDER.

BOTH IN CIVIL AND INSTITUTIONAL MATTERS AND MILITARY OPERATIONS ALIKE.

>> SOME BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING BECAUSE THE ALLIES OF THE ASSAD REGIME, THE RUSSIANS, HEZBOLLAH, IRAN, THAT THEY ARE WEAKENED, THEY'RE PREOCCUPIED WITH OTHER WARS AND THIS IS WHY WE'RE SEEING THIS HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.

ON THE SYRIAN REGIME ITSELF, WEAKENED.

THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?

IS THIS WHY YOU CHOSE TO LAUNCH THIS OFFENSIVE RIGHT NOW?

>> Translator: AS YOU KNOW, WE ARE STILL IN THE MIDST OF THE BATTLE AND DISCUSSING SUCH DETAILS AT THIS TIME IS NOT WISE.

>> BUT YOU FACED MORE OF A RESISTANCE IN HAMA THAN YOU DID IN ALEPPO.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED?

WHY DID THE REGIME WITHDRAW LIKE IT DID?

>> Translator: THE SEEDS OF THE REGIME'S DEFEAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN WITHIN IT.

IT HAS BEEN EFFECTIVELY DEAD SINCE THAT TIME.

HOWEVER, THE IRANIANS ATTEMPTED TO REVIVE THE REGIME, BUYING IT TIME, AND LATER THE RUSSIANS TRIED TO PROP IT UP.

THE TRUTH REMAINS.

THIS REGIME IS DEAD.

>> IN THE LAST YEAR, IT SEEMED LIKE HE SURVIVED THE WAR.

HE WAS WELCOMED BACK ON THE WORLD STAGE.

>> Translator: THE ARAB COUNTRY'S EVALUATION OF THE SITUATION WAS MISTAKEN.

SOME ARAB COUNTRIES TRIED TO SEPARATE THE REGIME FROM IRAN'S PROJECT.

THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE.

EVEN IF THE REGIME WANTED THIS, IT CAN'T IMPLEMENT IT.

IT'S A SUBSERVIENT RELATIONSHIP.

IRAN CAN DISENGAGE FROM THE REGIME BUT THE REGIME CAN'T.

TO DESCRIBE THE I AS VICTORIOUS IS DEEPLY UNJUST TO THE MANY CHILDREN, PEOPLE, WOMEN SUBJECTED TO RAPE IN PRISONS, DISPLACED INDIVIDUALS SCATTERED ACROSS THE WORLD, THOSE DROWNS IN THE SEAS AND THOSE LIVING IN TENTS ON THE BORDERS OF OTHER COUNTRIES.

WHAT KIND OF VICTORY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

>> IN THE PAST, YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT STRICT ISLAMIC RULE.

IS THAT STILL THE PLAN?

>> Translator: PEOPLE WHO FEAR ISLAMIC GOVERNANCE HAVE EITHER SEEN INCORRECT IMPLEMENTATIONS OF IT OR DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT PROPERLY.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT ALIGNS WITH THE TRADITIONS AND NAME OF THE REGION.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO BUILD INSTITUTIONS.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT RULE BY INDIVIDUALS OR PERSONAL WHIMS.

IT IS ABOUT INSTITUTIONAL GOVERNANCE.

SYRIA DESERVES A GOVERNING SYSTEM THAT IS INSTITUTIONAL.

NOT ONE WHERE A SINGLE RULER MAKES ARBITRARY DECISIONS.

>> MANY SYRIANS ARE HAPPY AND WILL BE HAPPY TO SEE THE END OF THE ASSAD REGIME.

BUT THEY'RE ALSO WORRIED ABOUT WHAT HTS RULE WOULD MEAN INCLUDING MINORITIES.

>> Translator: NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO ERASE ANOTHER GROUP.

THESE SECTS HAVE CO-EXISTED IN THIS REGION FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS AND NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO ELIMINATE THEM.

THERE MUST BE LEGAL FRAMEWORK THAT PROTECTS AND ENSURES THE RIGHTS OF ALL.

NOT A SYSTEM THAT SERVES ONLY ONE SECT AS ASSAD'S REGIME HAS DONE.

>> LISTENING TO YOU SPEAKING, YOU'VE GONE THROUGH QUITE THE TRANSFORMATION.

ONCE AN AL QAEDA LEADER, YOUR GROUP HAS HAD AFFILIATIONS WITH ISIS.

NOW YOU ARE PROJECTING THIS IMAGE OF A MODERATE LEADER AND A MODERATE GROUP.

WHAT IS HTS RIGHT NOW?

>> Translator: HAYAT TAHRIR AL-SHAM IS ONE OF THE FACTIONS IN THE REGION JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHERS.

NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A LARGER PROJECT.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUILDING SYRIA.

HAYAT TAHRIR AL-SHAM IS NEARLY ONE DETAIL OF THIS DIALOGUE AND IT MAY DISSOLVE AT ANY TIME.

IT'S NOT AN END IN ITSELF BUT A MEANS TO PERFORM A TASK CONFRONTING THIS REGIME.

ONCE THAT TASK IS COMPLETE, IT WILL TRANSITION TO A STATE OF GOVERNANCE, INSTITUTIONS AND SO ON.

I BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE IN LIFE GOES THROUGH PHASES AND EXPERIENCES AND THESE EXPERIENCES NATURALLY INCREASE A PERSON'S AWARENESS.

A PERSON IN THEIR 20s WILL HAVE A DIFFERENT PERSONALITY THAN SOMEONE IN THEIR 30s OR 40s, AND CERTAINLY SOMEONE IN THEIR 50s.

>> SO ARE THOSE DAYS BEHIND YOU?

>> Translator: SOMETIMES IT IS ESSENTIAL TO ADJUST TO REALITY.

BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO RIGIDLY CLINGS TO CERTAIN IDEAS CANNOT EFFECTIVELY LEAD SOCIETIES OR NAVIGATE COMPLEX CONFLICTS LIKE THE ONE HAPPENING IN SYRIA.

>> PEOPLE LISTENING TO THIS WILL WONDER WHY THEY SHOULD BELIEVE YOU.

YOU ARE STILL A ESPECIALLY DESIGNATED GLOBAL TERRORIST BY THE UNITED STATES WITH A $10 MILLION BOUNTY ON YOUR HEAD.

YOUR GROUP IS A PRESCRIBED TERRORIST ORGANIZATION BY THE UNITED STATES, BY THE U.N., THE E.U., AND OTHERS.

>> Translator: I SAY TO PEOPLE, DON'T JUDGE BY WORDS BUT BY ACTIONS.

I BELIEVE THE REALITY SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

THESE CLASSIFICATIONS ARE PRIMARILY POLITICAL AND AT THE SAME TIME, WRONG.

I DEFINE A TERRORIST AS SOMEONE WHO INTENTIONALLY KILLS CIVILIANS, HARMS INNOCENTS OR DISPLACES PEOPLE.

IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, MANY OF THE WARS WAGED BY MAJOR POWERS IN ARAB, MUSLIM, AND EVEN NONMUSLIM COUNTRIES HAVE INVOLVED THE DELIBERATE KILLING OF THOUSANDS, THE DESTRUCTION OF HOMES, THE DISPLACEMENT OF MILLIONS, EVEN THE REGIME ITSELF IS GUILTY OF SUCH ACTIONS.

>> BUT THE U.S. AND OTHERS WOULD SAY IS THAT YOU WERE PART OF GROUPS THAT DID EXACTLY THAT.

>> Translator: PERSONALLY I HAVE NOT DONE THESE THINGS.

THE SITUATION MUST BE UNDERSTOOD IN ITS HISTORICAL CONTEXT.

THERE WAS A MASSIVE WAR IN IRAQ THAT DEEPLY STIRRED PEOPLE'S EMOTIONS, PROMPTING MANY TO GO THERE.

THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THAT WAR LED PEOPLE TO VARIOUS PLACES AND MY PATH LED ME TO ONE OF THOSE LOCATIONS.

GIVEN MY LEVEL OF AWARENESS AND MY YOUNG AGE AT THE TIME, MY ACTIONS EVOLVED TO WHERE I AM TODAY.

I DIDN'T GO TO IRAQ WITH THOSE INTENTIONS.

I WENT TO DEFEND THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

WHEN I RETURNED TO SYRIA, I DIDN'T WANT TO BRING WHAM IN IRAQ INTO SYRIA.

THAT'S WHY THERE WERE DISAGREEMENTS BETWEEN US AND ISIS.

>> PEOPLE WOULD BE WONDERING WHY YOU AGREED TO SPEAK WITH US.

>> Translator: WHAT IS HAPPENING IN SYRIA IS SIGNIFICANT FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD.

THIS EVENT HAS POSITIVE REPERCUSSIONS GLOBALLY BECAUSE UNDER THE REGIME'S RULE, SYRIA BECAME A SOURCE OF CONCERN AND TROUBLE FOR EVERYONE.

STABILIZING SYRIA WILL BRING MANY PEOPLE BACK.

TODAY IN THE LIBERATED AREAS, ABOUT ONE-THIRD OF THE POPULATION LIVES IN CAMPS.

APPROXIMATELY 1.5 MILLION PEOPLE.

I BELIEVE WE CAN SOON REACH A POINT WHERE THERE ARE NO CAMPS.

WITH THE REHABILITATION OF THE LIBERATED AREAS, PEOPLE WILL RETURN TO THEIR HOMES.

MANY REFUGEES IN TURKEY WILL LIKELY RETURN AS WILL A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF REFUGEES IN LEBANON AND JORDAN.

EVEN REFUGEES IN EUROPE MAY RETURN TO THEIR COUNTRY.

>> THANK YOU AGAIN FOR THAT INCREDIBLE REPORTING.

>>> NEXT WE TURN TO FRANCE WHERE PRESIDENT-ELECT DONALD TRUMP IS HEADED TO ATTEND THE REOPENING OF THE NOTRE DAME CATHEDRAL TOMORROW.

HE WILL ARRIVE TO A SCENE OF POLITICAL TURMOIL.

THE OPPOSITION LAWMAKERS FROM BOTH ENDS OF FRANCE'S POLITICAL SPECTRUM HAVE JOINED TOGETHER TO OUST THE PRIME MINISTER IN A NO CONFIDENCE VOTE.

PRESIDENT MACRON IS RESISTING CALLS TO RESIGN AND SAID HE WILL SOON NOMINATE A REPLACEMENT.

SO WHAT DOES THIS INSTABILITY MEAN?

THIERRY ARNAUD WITH FRENCH CHANNEL BFMTV JOINS ME NOW FROM PARIS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO IF YOU CAN JUST EXPLAIN TO OUR VIEWERS, WALK US THROUGH WHAT GOT FRANCE AND PARLIAMENT TO A SITUATION THEY HAVE NOT SEEN IN SOME 60 YEARS TIME.

>> WELL, THE POLITICAL EQUATION IS QUITE COMPLEX.

THE MATH IS QUITE SIMPLE.

TO PUSH LEGISLATION THROUGH, TO CARRY IT OUT, YOU NEED A MAJORITY IN PARLIAMENT WHICH COMES TO EXACTLY 288.

THE PARLIAMENT THAT CAME OUT FROM THE PRESIDENT'S DECISION TO CALL FOR A SNAP ELECTION IN LATE JUNE, EARLY JULY, RESULTED IN THREE GROUPS THAT ARE FAR SHORT FROM THIS THRESHOLD.

THEY ARE BETWEEN 160 AND 200.

SO NOBODY HAS THE MAJORITY.

AND THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, AS WE CALL THE PARLIAMENT, IS PRETTY MUCH EVENLY DIVIDED BETWEEN THOSE THREE GROUPS THAT ARE FIGHTING EACH OTHER.

SO NOBODY HAS A MAJORITY.

AND THE ONLY POWER THAT CAN BE FOUND IS FOUND IN A NEGATIVE WAY.

WHEN TWO OF THE THREE GROUPS DECIDE TO FORM AN ALLIANCE TO TOPPLE THE GOVERNMENT THAT WAS CARRIED BY THE THIRD GROUP WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT HAPPENED TWO DAYS AGO.

>> SO THE PARLIAMENT IS ESSENTIALLY PARALYZED AND MANY ARE BLAMING THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF FOR TAKING THE RISK OF CALLING FOR SNAP ELECTIONS LAST SUMMER.

NOW, THERE CAN'T BE MORE ELECTIONS OR FUTURE ELECTIONS UNTIL NEXT JULY.

SO THERE WILL BE A CARE TAKER GOVERNMENT APPOINTED IN THE GOVERNMENT FROM 2024 CARRIED ON UNTIL THERE ARE THE NEW ELECTIONS.

BUT THAT LEADS TO JUST CONTINUED INSTABILITY AND A BALLOONING DEFICIT AS WE KNOW NOW THAT HAS SURPASSED THAT OF THE LIKES OF OTHER COUNTRIES THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST STRUGGLE ECONOMICALLY.

I'M SPECIFICALLY REFERENCING PORTUGAL, GREECE AND SPAIN.

SO WHAT IS THE ECONOMIC FORECAST FOR THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, WHEN FRANCE IS BORROWING MONEY TODAY, IT IS BORROWING MONEY AT THE SAME RATE AS GREECE AND WE HAVE MUCH MORE HIGHER INTEREST RATES THAN GERMANY, FOR EXAMPLE.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT FRANCE WILL HAVE TO PAY BETWEEN 50 AND 60 BILLION EUROS IN SERVICING ITS DEBT AND PROBABLY 70 BILLION EUROS AFTER.

THAT IT IS LIKELY TO LOSE THE CONFIDENCE OF FINANCIAL MARKETS.

IT IS LIKELY TO HAVE TO RAISE TAXES.

IT IS LIKELY TO RAISE THE COSTS TO THE FRENCH PEOPLE.

THE BUDGET MEANS THAT THERE HAS TO BE A CARE TAKER TO FINANCE HEALTH INSURANCE, PENSIONS.

IT IS A BIG ECONOMIC MESS RIGHT NOW THAT THE NEXT GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE TO CARRY ON ITS SHOULDERS.

>> WE'VE SEEN A STRANGE ALLIANCE, STRANGE BEDFELLOWS COMING TOGETHER FOR THE DECISION TO OUST THE PRIME MINISTER THIS WEEK.

THAT IS FAR RIGHT AND THE FAR LEFT COMING TOGETHER.

WHAT ARE THE MOTIVATIONS HERE?

SPECIFICALLY FOR SOMEONE LIKE MARINE LE PENN WHO HAS BEEN DESCRIBED A A POLITICAL KING MAKER OF SORTS.

>> YES.

SHE IS THE POLITICAL KING MAKER TODAY.

IT IS VERY CLEAR.

SHE WANTS TO BE THE NEXT FRENCH PRESIDENT.

THE WHOLE STRATEGY IS BASED ON HOW SHE CAN ACHIEVE THAT GOAL.

SHE THINKS THE BEST WAY TO DO THIS IS TO EXERCISE POWER UNLIKE ANY POWER SHE'S HAD SO FAR WHICH IS TO TOPPLEFULLY GOVERNMENT.

AND SHE'S HOPING WITHOUT BEING EXPLICIT ABOUT IT, WITHOUT EXCLUDING THAT OPTION, THAT TOPPLING ONE GOVERNMENT, TOPPLING A SECOND GOVERNMENT, MAYBE TOPPLING A THIRD ONE, WILL LEAD PRESIDENT MACRON THAT HE CANNOT CARRY OUT THE REST OF HIS TERM UNTIL 2027, AND THAT HE HAS TO RESIGN AND CALL AN EARLY PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

THAT'S BASICALLY THE SCENARIO THAT THE FAR LEFT AND THE FAR RIGHT ARE WORKING ON RIGHT NOW.

.

WE HAVE VIDEO OF HER.

SHE WAS DEFENDING FRANCE FROM THE BUDGET THAT BARNIER HAD PROPOSED.

>> Translator: I AM NOT PUSHING FOR, I AM NOT ASKING FOR THE RESIGNATION OF PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON.

I AM SAYING THERE WILL COME A MOMENT IF WE DON'T TAKE THE ROUTE OF THE POLITICAL ELECTIONS AND THE VOTERS, THEN THE PRESSURE ON THE PRESIDENT WILL BE STRONGER AND STRONGER.

HE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO WILL MAKE THE DECISION, WHO WILL HAVE THE LAST WORD ON WHETHER HE WANTS THE FRENCH PEOPLE TO VOTE AGAIN BEFORE 2027 OR WHETHER HE WANTS TO STAY ON AT ANY PRICE, SO TO SPEAK.

>> I UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF RESPECTING THE VOTERS' WILL.

THAT'S HOW DEMOCRACIES WORK.

BUT THEY APPEAR TO BE JUST KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD IN TERMS AN AGING DEMOGRAPHIC.

THE GDP GROWTH THAT HAS SLOWED TO ABOUT 1% A YEAR.

AND THE FACT THAT THEY'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THIS ISSUE OF THE BALLOONING DEFICIT AND NOT WANTING TO GIVE UP ANY OF THEIR ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS NOW, SOMETHING THAT MACRON HAS BEEN AGGRESSIVELY TRYING TO ADDRESS TOO TO NO SUCCESS.

AT WHAT POINT DO YOU THINK THE REALITY WILL SET IN FOR FRENCH VOTERS?

>> WELL, I THINK IT WILL HAVE TO COME TO THAT POINT AT SOME STAGE.

WHAT IS VERY INTERESTING, AND VERY CONCERNING AT THE SAME TIME ABOUT THE WAY THINGS ARE WORKING THESE DAYS, IS THAT EVERYBODY AGREES TO TOPPLE THE GOVERNMENT.

THE TWO SIDES AGREE TO TOPPLE THE GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THEY SAID THEY COULD NOT ACCEPT THE SPENDING THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS PLANNING TO CUT AS PART OF THE NEXT BUDGET.

BUT NOBODY IS SAYING WHERE MONEY HAS TO COME FROM IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO REDUCE THE DEFICIT, OR TO REDUCE THE DEBT WHICH IS NOW OVER 3,200 BILLION EUROS, AND WHICH, YOU KNOW, SLOWLY BUT SURELY, IS LEADING FRANCE EVER CLOSER TO A FINANCIAL CRISIS.

IT IS VERY EASY TO BE AGAINST ANYTHING THAT WILL BE, GOING TO MAKE PEOPLE'S LIFE HARDER.

IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT.

IT MAY BE A LITTLE MORE COURAGEOUS FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT TO DECIDE WHERE THE MONEY HAS TO COME FROM.

THAT'S WHERE WE STAND TODAY.

NOBODY IS MAKING CLEAR CALLS AS TO THE MEASURE THAT'S NEED TO BE TAKEN IN ORDER TO REDRESS THE FINANCIAL SITUATION.

>> WE'RE SEEING SIMILAR INSTABILITY IN GERMANY, FOR EXAMPLE, AS WELL, WHERE WE'RE EXPECTED TO SEE NEW ELECTIONS IN THE COMING MONTHS.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT FRANCE'S ROLE AS A EUROPEAN LEADER ON LARGER ISSUES?

SPECIFICALLY AS IT RELATES TO SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, FOR EXAMPLE.

>> WELL, IT MAKES THE VOICE OF FRANCE CARRY FAR LESS WEIGHT TODAY ON THE EUROPEAN SCENE.

CLEARLY, THREE, FOUR, FIVE YEARS AGO, PRESIDENT MACRON APPEARED AS THE LEADER OF EUROPE.

THE ONE WHO HAD.

SO POLITICAL CAPITAL, SO MUCH POLITICAL WEIGHT, HE COULD CARRY EUROPE FORWARD AND PUSH REALLY IMPORTANT DECISIONS.

HE HAS SPENT AND WASTED, TO BE HONEST, SO MUCH OF HIS POLITICAL CAPITAL TODAY THAT IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO PLAY THAT ROLE TODAY.

IT COULD TAKE A VERY SIMPLE CONCRETE EXAMPLE.

THE BUDGET WAS PLANNING TO SPEND AN EXTRA 3.3 BILLION EUROS ON DEFENSE IN FRANCE, FOR EXAMPLE.

AND THAT WAS, THAT MONEY WAS TO BE SPENT TO MODERNIZE DEFENSE EQUIPMENT FOR FRANCE.

AND THE CONSEQUENCE OF THAT EQUIPMENT BEING MODERNIZED BECAUSE THE OLD EQUIPMENT WAS AVAILABLE TO BE TRANSFERRED TO UKRAINE.

THE FACT THAT THE BUDGET HAS BEEN TOPPLED AND WON'T BE ABLE TO BE REPLACED WITH A KNEW ONE FOR THE NEXT FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS PREVENTS FRANCE TO CARRY ON WITH THE PLANNED, YOU KNOW, THE SUPPLY OF DEFENSE MATERIAL TO UKRAINE.

>> HAS THIS CRISIS OVERSHADOWED THE UPCOMING VISIT NOW OF DONALD TRUMP FOR THE REOPENING OF NOTRE DAME CATHEDRAL?

>> WELL, I THINK THE NEWS, OBVIOUSLY, OVER THE NEXT COUPLE DAYS WILL BE ALL ABOUT NOTRE DAME.

IT WILL BE A BREATHER IN BETWEEN WHAT HAPPENED LAST WEEK, WHICH WAS THE TOPPLING OF THE GOVERNMENT, WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT WEEK.

IT IS CLEARLY A DIFFICULT POSITION FOR THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT.

THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT TO SPEAK OF, OTHER THAN A CARE-TAKING ROLE.

PRESIDENT MACRON WILL BE IN A POSITION THAT IS NOT VERY EASY FOR HIM AT THIS POINT IN TIME AND ONE COMING, IT IS TODAY A DEEPLY UNPOPULAR PRESIDENT.

BETWEEN 60, OVER 60% OF THE FRENCH PEOPLE TODAY WOULD LIKE TO SEE HIM RESIGN.

>> YEAH.

IT DOES APPEAR THE TAKEAWAY, THE , THAT IT IS DEAD.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE ANALYSIS.

APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> IT WAS ONE OF THE DEADLIEST NATURAL DISASTERS IN MODERN TIMES.

20 YEARS AGO MASSIVE TSUNAMI TRIGGERED OFF THE COAST OF INDONESIA KILLED MORE THAN 200,000 PEOPLE IN 14 COUNTRIES.

A NEW DOCUMENTARY CALLED "TSUNAMI: RACE AGAINST TIME" LOOKS BACK AT THAT DEVASTATING TODAY.

THE 20th OF DECEMBER, 2004.

HERE'S A BIT FROM THE TRAILER.

>> PEOPLE WERE ON THE STREET.

SUDDENLY I CAN SEE THIS REALLY HIGH WATER.

AND I WAS JUST LIKE, WHAT IS THAT?

>> WOW.

HARI SREENIVASAN SITS DOWN WITH DIRECTOR DANIEL BOGADO AND BARRY HIRSHORN.

>> THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

YOUR NEW DOCUMENTARY, "TSUNAMI: RACE AGAINST TIME," IT'S ABOUT THE DEVASTATING TSUNAMI THAT CAME ACROSS A HUGE SWATH OF THE PLANET ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO.

FIRST, WHAT DREW YOU TO THIS TOPIC?

>> I SUPPOSE IT IS THE 20th INVESTIGATE VERSE.

IT'S DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE IT HAS BEEN 20 YEARS SINCE IT HAPPENED.

I REMEMBER WAKING UP AND THE SCALE OF THE TRAGEDY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE FORGET WE LOST NEARLY A QUARTER OF A MILLION PEOPLE IN ONE DAY.

SO WE HAD THIS IDEA WHICH WOULD BE FOCUSING ON THE DAY ONLY WITH VIDEO ARCHIVE OF THE DAY AND BASICALLY, LISTENING FROM SURVIVORS AND PEOPLE WHO EXPERIENCED THAT.

IT TOOK MANY YEARS TO PUT TOGETHER TOGETHER.

WE THOUGHT IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO PUT TOGETHER.

WE TRAVELED TO INDONESIA, SRI LANKA, WE FOUND HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF VIDEO FOOTAGE THAT HAD NEVER BEEN SHOWN BEFORE ANYWHERE.

THAT WAS ONLY THE FIRST PART OF JOB.

AFTER THAT, WE SAW PEOPLE IN THE VIDEO ARCHIVE AND WE WANTED TO FIND THEM AND TRACK THEM DOWN SO WE COULD HEAR DIRECTLY FROM THEM THEIR STORIES.

THAT WAS A WHOLE SEPARATE CHALLENGE.

>> THEN THERE WAS A SHOUT.

THIS IS COMING.

THIS IS COMING.

BUT IT LOOKED LIKE IT'S COMING GENTLY.

SUDDENLY, EVERYBODY STARTED RUNNING.

AND THEN -- >> BARRY, YOU WERE WORKING IN HAWAII AT THE TIME.

8,000 MILES AWAY FROM WHERE THIS EARTHQUAKE, THE TSUNAMI HAPPENED.

YOU WERE WORKING AT THE PACIFIC TSUNAMI WARNING CENTER.

>> WE HAVE A MAGNITUDE 8.

AND WE'RE TRYING TO RIAN LIES THE MAGNITUDE WITH MORE DATA.

AND THEN WE GOT A MAGNITUDE 8.5.

AND ALTHOU YOU THINK OF 8.5 VERSUS 8, SO WHAT, .5, RIGHT?

IT IS A LOG RHYTHMIC SCALE.

EACH DIFFERENCE IN MAGNITUDE IS ABOUT A 30-TIME INCREASE IN ENERGY.

>> SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS ALMOST THE LENGTH OF CALIFORNIA UNDER THE SEA THAT ESSENTIALLY, TWO BIG PLATES ARE SHIFTING UP.

SO WHEN THIS PART OF THE EARTH GOES UP OR DOWN, THAT MEANS, WHAT?

THE WAVE THAT IS A COLUMN OF WATER, SUPER HIGH, ALL THAT ENERGY, LIFTS UP THOSE MILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF POUNDS AND WHATEVER OF WATER AND MAKES THEM FALL OVER?

IS THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN A TSUNAMI?

>> IT ESSENTIALLY LIFTS THEM AND LIFTS THEM IN A GIGANTIC PULSE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU GET TO EARTHQUAKES OF THIS SIZE, THERE IS A FAIRLY COMMON -- A COMMON PERCEPTION THAT EARTHQUAKES OCCUR AT A POINT IN THE EARTH.

AND THE REALITY IS THAT THEY OCCUR ALONG RUPTURED ZONES.

THIS ONE WAS ROUGHLY THE LENGTH OF CALIFORNIA.

SO IF YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT GIGANTIC COLUMN OF WATER THAT YOU IMAGINE, LIFTING, TAKING SUCCESSIVE COLUMNS OF WATER, COMPARABLE TO THAT, OVER A PERIOD OF NINE OR TEN MINUTES, SUCCESSIVELY LIFTING AS THE FAULT RUPTURED TO THE NORTHEAST.

YOU HAVE MULTIPLE TSUNAMI SOURCES THAT ALL COMBINE COMING FROM THIS GIGANTIC FAULT.

>> I SAW AN ELDERLY COUPLE.

I THOUGHT, I HAVE TO GO DOWN THERE AND TO HELP THEM.

THIS ELDERLY COUPLE WERE HANGING ON TO THE RAILING.

I TRIED TO REACH THEM.

AND THEY JUST DISAPPEARED.

>> BARRY, THERE ARE PERIODS IN THE DOCUMENTARY WHERE YOU CAN SEE HOW REALLY ANGUISHED YOU AND YOUR STAFF ARE, REALIZING THAT YOU JUST DON'T HAVE THE INFORMATION FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PLANET THAT COULD HELP YOU HELP MORE PEOPLE.

WHAT WAS, WHAT WERE THE THINGS THAT STARTED TO, YOU KNOW, WHAT WERE THE PIECES OF INFORMATION THAT STARTED TO TRICKLE IN WHERE YOU UNDERSTOOD, REALLY, THE MAGNITUDE FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM WHAT WAS HAPPENING SO FAR AWAY?

>> THE ONE THAT REALLY DROVE THE POINT HOME TO ME WAS A TRAIN, WHICH IS NOT A FEATHERWEIGHT OBJECT.

A TRAIN IS A VERY MASSIVE, MASSIVE THING.

INLAND, FROM THE TSUNAMI, IN SRI LANKA.

SOMETHING LIKE TWO OR THREE HOURS TRAVEL TIME AWAY FROM THE SOURCE.

THAT DROVE THE POINT HOME THAT WE WERE DEALING WITH SOMETHING EXTREMELY -- I WOULD SAY, THERE WAS AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE JUMP IN SCIENCE SPEAK IN OUR AWARENESS.

AND I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT AT THAT TIME, THE DIRECTOR DID SOMETHING WHICH I SUPPOSE IS AN ADVANTAGE OF HAVING SCIENTISTS ON DUTY FOR THESE EVENTS.

HE'S A SEISMOLOGIST AND A WATER LEVEL PERSON, AND HE WAS ABLE TO GENERATE ON THE FLY A MAP THAT SHOWED THE TSUNAMI TRAVEL TIMES EVERY HOUR FOR THE INDIAN OCEAN, WHICH OF COURSE, WE DID NOT HAVE.

AND SO THIS COMBINATION OF THIS UBER REALIZATION OF MAGNITUDE COMBINES WITH A TOOL THAT, THE VALUE IS INFINITELY VALUABLE IN THAT SITUATION.

YOU CAN NOW FOCUS THE ENERGY AND PERSONNEL YOU HAVE ON PLACES AHEAD OF THE WAVE CRITICAL.

>> DANIEL, BARRY MENTIONED THIS TRAIN.

THE STORY OF THE TRAIN IN SRI LANKA IS SO FASCINATING BECAUSE WE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT WE CAN TEXT EACH OTHER AND TELL EACH OTHER SOMETHING DOWN THE ROAD OR AHEAD OF YOU.

THIS WAS ONE OF THE WORST TRAIN DISASTERS IN HUMAN HISTORY AND SO FEW PEOPLE MADE IT OUT OF THERE.

YET YOU WERE ABLE TO TRACK DOWN ONE OF THE SURVIVORS AND REALLY HAVE HER SHARE THIS INCREDIBLY POWERFUL STORY OF HER OWN.

>> YES.

AN INTERESTING DETAIL ABOUT THAT TRAIN IS THAT THEY ACTUALLY DID GET WARNING ABOUT IT, THAT THEY WERE HEADING STRAIGHT TO THE TSUNAMI.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, BY THE TIME THEY GOT THE WARNING AND THEY TRIED TO CALL THE TRAIN, THERE WAS NO WAY TO COMMUNICATE WITH ANYBODY ON THE TRAIN.

SO THE PEOPLE IN THE STATION, JUST AS IT LEFT, HAD A WARNING.

IF IT HAPPENED TODAY, THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO PASS ON THE COMMUNICATION.

AND YES, THERE WERE SO MANY OF THESE CONTRIBUTORS, JUST AN INCREDIBLY, THE CONTRIBUTION THAT CAME FROM THWART.

SHE TALKED ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH HER MOTHER WHO WAS ON THE TRAIN AND THE EVENTS THAT TRANSPIRED.

SO IN A WAY, THE WHOLE PROJECT, BECAUSE IT IS LARGELY VOICES FROM PEOPLE WHO SURVIVED WHO RUN MINUTE BY MINUTE THE EVENTS THAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

IT TAKES A LOT OF COURAGE TO DO THAT.

A LOT OF COURAGE TO GO BACK AND REVISIT WHAT IS THE WORST DAY OF THEIR LIVES, WITHOUT A DOUBT.

I GUESS THE PITCH WE GAVE TO THEM, WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO WITH THIS, WE WERE TRYING FIRST OF ALL TO CREATE SOMETHING FOR THE HISTORICAL RECORD.

FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS TO LOOK BACK AND UNDERSTAND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY.

AND THEN THE SECOND REASON WAS FOR IT TO SERVE AS A MEMORIAL FOR THE LIVES THAT WERE LOST.

AND HOPEFULLY FOR PEOPLE TO BECOME MORE EDUCATED ABOUT TSUNAMIS.

I THINK IF THERE WAS GREATER KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE RED FLAGS, ABOUT THE WARNING SIGNS, MANY, MANY MORE LIVES COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.

>> THE LAYER OF CATASTROPHIC DAMAGE THAT CAME AFTER THE FIRST WAVE AND THE SUBSEQUENT WAVES.

YOU WERE ABLE TO CAPTURE THAT IN SO MANY LOCATIONS.

>> I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF MYTHS AND MISUNDERSTANDINGS SURROUNDING TSUNAMIS FROM WHAT WE SEE ON TELEVISION AND IN FILMS.

A GIGANTIC WAVE, THE SIZE OF A CITY COMING.

IT'S SIMPLY NOT LIKE THAT.

WE FOLLOWED THE EXPERIENCES OF A WOMAN WHO WAKES UP AND WHEN SHE GOES OUT OF HER HOTEL ROOM, THE FIRST WAVE HAS ARRIVED ALREADY.

SO THERE'S JUST WATER EVERYWHERE.

PEOPLE ARE CONFUSED.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND AS THE WATER IS HEADING BACK THAT THAT MEANS ANOTHER WAVE IS COMING.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE CONGREGATE ON THE BEACH WONDERING WHAT'S GOING ON.

WHEN ALL OF THOSE ARE RED FLAGS THAT THEY SHOULD LEAVE.

THEY SHOULD FIND HIGHER GROUND.

ANOTHER WAVE MIGHT COME AND ANOTHER ONE AND ANOTHER ONE.

BY TAKING THE AUDIENCE THROUGH THAT JOURNEY SO THEY SEE MINUTE BY MINUTE HOW IT PLAYED OUT.

WE HOPE IT IS IN A WAY, EDUCATIONAL FOR PEOPLE.

WHEN THEY ENCOUNTER THE SAME THING, THEY HAVE A MUCH BETTER IDEA WHAT TO DO.

>> BARRY, HOW ARE WE TODAY AS A PLANET COMPARED TO WHERE WE WERE 20 YEARS AGO IF RIGHT NOW A TSUNAMI WAS TO BE HAPPENING BECAUSE OF AN EARTHQUAKE SOMEWHERE FAR AWAY?

>> BETTER THAN WE WERE THEN.

THIS EARTHQUAKE SPARKED A REVOLUTION IN SEISMOLOGY.

A REVOLUTION IN SEISMOLOGY SCIENCE WHICH IS ALSO COUPLED WITH A REVOLUTION THAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWAY, AS WE ALL KNOW IN COMMUNICATIONS, IN SENSOR TECHNOLOGY, COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY.

WE HAVE VERY, VERY FAST METHODS BASED ON SEISMIC INSTRUMENTS AND ADVANCES, AND ALL THE ABOVE THAT USED THE INITIAL ARRIVING ENERGY.

WE CAN NOW TELL YOU IT IS A 9.

WE COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT WAS A 9 BEFORE IT WAS COMPLETE, BEFORE THE EVENT WAS OVER.

WHICH WOULD HAVE GIVEN EVEN THE CLOSEST COAST SOME WARNING.

MAYBE FIVE OR TEN MINUTES WHICH IS COMPLETELY UNHEARD OF BACK THEN.

IT IS JUST NO COMPARISON.

THE OTHER CASE BESIDES THIS IS THE MUCH, MUCH MORE DIFFICULT NEAR-FIELD PROBLEM WHERE MOST OF THE CASUALTIES ARE.

AND THERE'S BEEN TREMENDOUS PROGRESS THERE, TOO.

>> DANIEL, YOU WERE ABLE TO FIND SURVIVORS, FIRST RESPONDERS IN THESE PLACES.

SOME OF THEM ARE SO FAR OFF WHERE EVEN THE PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO BE RESCUED OR NOT.

WHETHER THEY WOULD BE STRANDED.

WHAT STOOD OUT TO YOU AS YOU LISTEN TO THEIR STORIES, YOU LOOKED OVER THEIR FOOTAGE?

>> YEAH, WELL, I THINK THAT THAT IS A NUMBER OF THINGS.

WHAT WAS QUITE INTERESTING IS THAT THIS WAS A CATACLYSMIC EVENT WHICH AFFECTED SO MANY PEOPLE IN SO MANY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

AND PEOPLE WITH VERY, VERY DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS.

SO IT WAS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE SERIES TO EXPLORE THE PERSPECTIVES OF ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

MANY TIMES SPEAKING IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE.

THEN YOU START SEEING SOME COMMONALITIES, AT LEAST PEOPLE WHO GET SO CLOSE TO THE LINE SEPARATING LIFE FROM DEATH.

IN THOSE LAST MOMENTS, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE THINKING OF THEIR LOVED ONES, RIGHT?

ALL THE SMALL TRIVIALITIES OF LIFE.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU SEE ACROSS COUNTRIES, AND ACROSS DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS.

THEN THE OTHER THING THAT PEOPLE SAW IN THE AFTERMATH WAS THE WAY JUST THAT PEOPLE CAME TOGETHER TO HELP EACH OTHER.

AND AGAIN, THAT WAS A COMMONALITY WHEREVER YOU SAW, THESE ARE ALL THE STORIES IN THAILAND, SRI LANKA, AND INDONESIA.

SO SOMETHING ABOUT THESE EVENTS THAT REALLY MADE CLEAR FOR PEOPLE WHAT REALLY MATTERS.

AND ALSO, IT REALLY SHOWED THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HUMAN CONDITION.

THIS DRIVE THAT WE ALL HAVE TO WANT TO HELP ONE ANOTHER.

AND THAT BECOMES VERY, VERY CLEAR IN SITUATIONS LIKE THE DAY OF THE TSUNAMI.

>> ALL RIGHT.

SEISMOLOGIST BARRY HIRSHORN AND DANIEL BOGADO, IT IS CALLED "TSUNAMI: RACE AGAINST TIME."

YOU CAN WATCH IT STREAMING NOW ON "NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC" OR DISNEY PLUS.

THANK YOU.

>>> NOW TO LONDON WHERE A NEW EXHIBITION AT THE LIGHTROOM IS TAKING VISITORS FOR A CAT WALK DOWN MEMORY LANE.

THE NEW SHOW CALLED "VOGUE: INVENTING THE RUNWAY" LOOKS AT A HISTORY OF FASHION WITH NARRATION FROM DESIGNERS AND IMAGES FROM THE ARCHIVE.

ALL IN COLLABORATION WITH THE FASHION BIBLE.

BACK IN 2019, CHRISTIANE SAT DOWN WITH THE LONGTIME EDITOR ANNA WINTOUR JUST AHEAD OF THE BIGGEST FASHION EVENT OF THE YEAR, THE MET GALA.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> CAN I JUST ADDRESS THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM?

YOU'RE WEARING YOUR DARK GLASSES.

I'M NOT SURE THAT I EXPECTED YOU TO WEAR THEM DURING THE INTERVIEW BUT I KNOW THAT YOU DO WEAR THEM INSIDE.

EVERYBODY WANTS TO KNOW.

>> TODAY I'LL BE BRUTALLY FRANK.

I'VE BEEN UNBELIEVABLY ILL ALL WEEK.

PLUS, I JUST HAD EYE SURGERY.

SO THOSE ARE THE REAL REASONS I'M WEARING THEM TODAY.

OTHERWISE, I WOULD BE WITHOUT THEM.

>> ARE THEY AN INSCRUTABLE -- YOU WEAR THEM IN THE FRONT ROW OF FASHION AS WELL.

YOU WEAR THEM SITTING NEXT TO THE QUEEN.

>> THEY'RE INCREDIBLY USEFUL.

YOU AVOID PEOPLE KNOWING WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT.

THEY HELP ME WHEN I FEEL A BIT TIRED OR SLEEPY.

AND MAYBE THEY'VE JUST BECOME A CRUTCH AND PART OF WHO I AM.

TODAY, I REALLY DID NEED THEM.

>> YOUR MAGAZINE, THE MOST IMPORTANT FASHION BIBLE IN THE WORLD, DOES PROFILE SOME VERY, VERY IMPORTANT WOMEN WHO ARE IN POLITICS.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

YOU'RE OVERTLY POLITICAL IN YOUR PROFILES AND IN WHAT YOU STAND FOR.

>> I THINK ONE HAS TO BE FAIR AND LOOK AT ALL SIDES.

I DON'T THINK IT IS A MOMENT NOT TO TAKE A STAND.

I THINK YOU CAN'T BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYBODY.

WE PROFILE WOMEN IN THE MAGAZINE THAT WE BELIEVE IN THE STAND THAT THEY'RE TAKING ON ISSUES.

WE SUPPORT THEM IN THE FACT THAT WE FEEL THAT THEY ARE LEADERS.

PARTICULARLY AFTER THE DEFEAT OF SECRETARY CLINTON IN 2016, THAT WE BELIEVE THAT WOMEN SHOULD HAVE A LEADERSHIP POSITION, AND THAT WE INTEND TO SUPPORT THEM.

>> I WAS REALLY INTERESTED TO HEAR, I BELIEVE SECRETARY CLINTON WHEN SHE WAS FIRST LADY WAS THE FIRST FIRST LADY TO BE ON THE COVER OF VOGUE?

>> SHE WAS.

>> NOT EVEN JACKIE KENNEDY WAS ON THE COVER.

>> NO.

SHE WAS PHOTOGRAPHED MANY TIMES WITHIN THE MAGAZINE WITH HER HUSBAND AND CHILDREN.

AND I THINK WITH HER SISTER.

ICONIC PICTURES.

BUT I THINK IT WAS A TIME WHEN I FELT THAT THE FIRST LADY AT THAT TIME HADN'T BEHAVED IN A VERY BRAVE WAY.

>> WAS THIS IN SURVIVING THE SLINGS AND ARROWS OF HER HUSBAND'S ACCUSATIONS -- >> SLINGS AND ARROWS OF MISFORTUNE, YES.

SO WE FELT IT WAS A TIME TO SUPPORT HER AND TO STAND UP FOR WOMEN AND IT WAS, WE WERE VERY HONORED THAT SHE AGREED TO BE ON COVER AT THAT TIME.

AND WE WERE VERY HONORED.

MRS. OBAMA WAS ON THE COVER THREE TIMES WHILE SHE WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> WHAT DOES SHE MEAN TO YOU?

SHE'S NOT JUST AN AMAZING ROLE MODEL.

>> I THINK MRS. OBAMA REDEFINED THE ROLE OF THE FIRST LADY.

SHE WAS SO OPEN TO EVERYBODY.

SHE MADE THE WHITE HOUSE A PLACE FOR EVERYONE.

SHE WAS JUST SO, I THINK, INSPIRING TO SO MANY WOMEN AND OBVIOUSLY, ON A VERY SELFISH NOTE, SPEAKING AS THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF VOGUE, SHE DID WONDERS FOR FASHION.

>> AND HIGH AND LOW, RIGHT?

>> SHE MIXED HIGH AND LOW.

SHE SUPPORTED DESIGNERS THAT ONE HAD NEVER HEARD OF.

WE HAD ALWAYS HAD A TRADITION TO PHOTOGRAPH FIRST LADIES WHEN THEY FIRST CAME INTO OFFICE.

AND SOME EXTRAORDINARY, WONDERFUL WOMEN.

AND IT WAS AN HONOR TO PHOTOGRAPH THEM.

THEY WERE SUPER CAUTIOUS ABOUT THE IMAGE THEY WANTED TO PRESIDENT PRESENT.

NEARLY ALWAYS A JACKET.

MAYBE SOME PEARL IF YOU WERE MRS. BUSH.

WITH MRS. OBAMA, YOU KNOW, SHE WAS FEARLESS.

AND IT WAS JUST SUCH A JOY FOR ALL OF US THAT WORK IN FASHION.

>> VOGUE IS SORT OF THE CULTURAL BIBLE, THE TOUCHSTONE.

AND YET ONLINE IS WAY OVERTAKING PRINT.

>> I THINK WE'RE SO FORTUNATE TODAY TO HAVE SO MANY DIFFERENT CHANNELS IN WHICH TO SPEAK TO OUR AUDIENCES.

IF YOU GO BACK TO WHEN I WAS A YOUNG GIRL GROWING UP IN BRITAIN, I WENT FOR MY FIRST JOB AND IT WAS INTERESTED A GREAT THING IF WE REACHED AN AUDIENCE OF 90,000 PEOPLE WITH A MONTHLY MAGAZINE.

NOW IT IS 22 MILLION FOLLOWERS ON INSTAGRAM ALONE AT VOGUE.U.S.

WE ARE TALKING TO MEN, WOMEN, ALL OVER THE WORLD IN A WAY THAT WE COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE IMAGINED 10 YEARS AGO, 15 YEARS AGO.

>> YOU FEEL THE MAGAZINE WILL STAY.

>> I DO.

I FEEL THERE'S AN ENGAGEMENT WITH A GLOSSY, RICH MAGAZINE LIKE "VOGUE."

THAT EXPERIENCE, IT ISN'T THE SAME WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOMETHING ONLINE.

IT PEAKS IN A DAY.

IT TRENDS IN A DAY.

IT'S GREAT.

THE NEWS GETS OUT THERE AND WE'RE SO EXCITED TO SEE IT.

THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT SITTING WITH A MAGAZINE AND LUXURIATING IN IT THAT IS VERY SPECIAL.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY, A TOAST TO THE END OF THE WEEK.

WHY NOT GRAB YOURSELF A GLASS OF SAKE?

WELL, THE FAMOUS JAPANESE RICE WINE HAS EARNED A SPOT ON UNESCO'S INTANGIBLE CULTURAL HERITAGE LIST.

ALL DOWN TO CENTURIES OLD BREWING TECHNIQUES.

WHAT BETTER WAY FOR THESE DELEGATES TO CELEBRATE AN ANNOUNCEMENT THAT WITH THE VERY DRINK ITSELF.

CHEERS TO THAT, OR AS THE JAPANESE WOULD SAY.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER.

JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.