♪ CRYSTAL: HI, EVERYBODY.

I'’M CRYSTAL HAYNES.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON" -- WE WILL TAKE A LOOK AT THE TESTIMONIES AND HOW UNIVERSITIES ARE REACTING.

AND A DOCUSERIES TAKING A LOOK AT THE CAROL STEWART MURDER CASE AND THE RACIAL TENSIONS IT STOPED IN THE CITY OF BOSTON.

I WILL BE JOINED BY THE DOCUSERIES DIRECTOR TO DISCUSS THAT PRODUCTION, THEN LATER A BOSTON GLOBE REPORTER WHO HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THE INVESTIGATION FOR OVER 30 YEARS WILL JOIN ME ON THE ONGOING IMPACTS THIS CASE HAS HAD ON THE CITY.

♪ THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE HAS ANNOUNCED AN INVESTIGATION INTO HARVARD, M.I.T.

AND UPENN, ACCORDING TO FOXNEWS, JUST DAYS AFTER THE PRESIDENTS OF THOSE UNIVERSITIES APPEARED ON CAPITOL HILL IN AN ATTEMPT TO DEFEND HOW THEY HAVE HANDLED THE POLARIZING RESPONSE ON TEHEIR CAMPUSES TO THE ISRAELI-HAMAS WAR.

LAWMAKERS TOOK AIM AT THE COLLEGE PRESIDENTS, ESPECIALLY HARVARD'’S NEW PRESIDENT.

HERE HE IS RESPONDING TO QUESTIONS.

>> DOES CALLING FROM THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS VIOLATE HARVARD'’S RULES ON BULLYING AND HARASSMENT?

>> THE RULES AROUND BULLYING AND HARASSMENT ARE QUITE SPECIFIC, AND IF THE CONTEXT IN WHICH THAT LANGUAGE IS USED IN AMOUNTS TO BULLYING AND HARASSMENT, THEN WE TAKE ACTION AGAINST IT.

>> CAN YOU SAY "YES" TO THAT QUESTION OF DOES CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS VIOLATE HARVARD '’S RULES ON BULLYING AND HARASSMENT?

>> CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS IS ANTISEMITIC.

>> SO YES.

>> AND THAT IS ANTI-SEMITIC SPEECH AND AS I HAVE SAID -- >> AND IT'’S A YES.

I'’VE ASKED -- >> WHEN SPEECH CROSSES INTO CONDUCT, WE TAKE ACTION.

>> IS THAT A YES?

IS THAT A YES?

THE WITNESS HAS AN ANSWER.

IS THAT A YES?

YOU CANNOT ANSWER THE QUESTION.

>> I'’M SORRY, WE TAKE ACTION.

CRYSTAL: WILL CALLS FOR THE PRESIDENT'’S RESIGNATION HAVE BEEN HEARD FROM CAPITOL HILL TO CAMBRIDGE AND HARVARD IS ALSO AMONG A GROWING LIST OF UNIVERSITIES AND SCHOOL DISTRICTS THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION IS INVESTIGATING OVER ALLEGED INCIDENTS OF ANTI-SEMITISM AND ISLAMOPHOBIA.

HERE TO BREAK ALL THAT DOWN, WHAT WE SAW ON CAPITOL HILL AND ON CAMPUSES THIS WEEK IS KIRK CARAPEZZA.

GBH'’S MANAGING EDITOR FOR HIGHER EDUCATION.

KIRK: IT WAS INTENSE ON THE HILL.

CRYSTAL: IT SEEMS LIKE THE QUESTION -- -- ALL OF THEM STRUGGLED WITH HOW TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

THE CONCEPT OF FREE SPEECH AND HOW TO I GUESS MAKE RULES AROUND IT ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES IS A DIFFICULT ONE.

KIRK: IT KEEPS COMING UP AGAIN AND AGAIN AND SOCIAL MEDIA IS NOT HELPING.

A LOT OF IT IS PLAYING OUT BEHIND THE SCENES.

THE PRESIDENT HAS DEFENDED THE SCHOOLS'’ RESPONSES TO THESE INCIDENTS OF ANTI-SEMITISM WHILE PRESERVING FREE-SPEECH.

REPUBLICANS TRIED TO USE THE HEARING AS A PLATFORM TO POINT OUT AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT THERE MAY BE FACULTY OR STUDENTS WHO BLAMED THE OCTOBER 7 HAMAS ATTACK ON THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND THAT THEIR RESPONSE WAS NOT SWIFT ENOUGH OR QUICK ENOUGH AND IT BECOMES THIS KIND OF BACKLASH TO THE BACKLASH STORY.

SINCE THE INITIAL STATEMENT FROM THE PRO-PALESTINIAN STUDENTS WHO BLAMED ME ATTACK ON THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND THE PRESIDENT GETS CHARGED WITH NOT RESPONDING SWIFTLY ENOUGH TO THAT, BUT BASICALLY ARE TRYING TO USE THIS AS A POLITICAL FOOTBALL, HOW DID YOUR CAMPUS GET THIS WOULD?

SAYING ANTI-SEMITISM HAS NO PLACE AT HARVARD.

BUT SUCCESSFUL TEACHING AND LEARNING REQUIRES THE CONSIDERATION OF ALL OF THE VIEWPOINTS.

EVEN IF THEY ARE OUTRAGEOUS.

AND THAT'’S WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO STRIKE, THIS BALANCE BETWEEN FREE SPEECH AND PUBLIC SAFETY AND A ROBUST DEBATE.

CRYSTAL: IT IS SO DIFFICULT BECAUSE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT AS A CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION, WE'’VE HEARD CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLARS SAY FREE-SPEECH IS PERMITTED UNLESS IT INCITES VIOLENCE OR HARM.

THAT IS WHAT CLAUDIAN GAY WAS GETTING THAT IN THE ANSWER.

BUT MOST COLLEGES CAN MAKE THEIR OWN RULES.

KIRK: WHAT IS TRICKY HERE IS THE SPECIFIC TERMS.

THESE GROUPS CAN'’T EVEN AGREE ON THE TERMS AND THEIR MEANINGS.

SO WE ARE HEARING THESE THINGS, PROTESTS ON-CAMPUS AND OFF-CAMPUS, THE PHRASE EVERYONE IS HEARING IS FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA.

THE PRO-PALESTINIAN GROUP IS DESCRIBING IT AS A RESISTANT MOVEMENT.

SOME DEFINED IT AS A CULT OF VIOLENCE AND THEY FEEL THREATENED.

THE PRESIDENTS ARE STUCK IN THE MIDDLE HERE TRYING TO PLAY REFEREE.

I THINK ONE THING THAT EVERYONE CAN AGREE ON IS THAT THERE IS AN INCREASE IN BOTH ANTI-SEMITISM AND ISLAMOPHOBIA ON CAMPUSES AND OFF-CAMPUS IS.

AND OFTEN IT GOES UNDERREPORTED.

>> IT SEEMS LIKE AFTERWARDS, SOME OF THE PRESIDENTS, ESPECIALLY IN THE CASE OF THE UPENN PRESIDENT, SHE WENT ON TO SOCIAL MEDIA AGAIN AFTER EVERYTHING.

ALMOST TRYING TO QUELL WHAT WOULD PROBABLY BE A RESPONSE ON CAMPUS FROM STUDENTS FROM THEIR TESTIMONY ON CAPITOL HILL.

>> THEY ARE CLEARLY TALKING TO LOWERS, THEY ARE IN DAMAGE CONTROL HERE, READING FROM TALKING POINTS.

THERE WAS THIS INTERACTION WHERE SHE TRIED TO PIN HER DOWN ON SAYING, DOES CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF ANY PEOPLE, THE JEWISH PEOPLE, DOES THAT VIOLATE YOUR CODE OF ETHICSS?

-- OF ETHICS?

COMING UNDER FIRE FOR HER INITIAL RESPONSE TO THAT WHERE SHE SAID, IT DEPENDS ON THE CONTEXT, SHE SINCE ISSUED A STATEMENT AFTER THAT SAYING, YES, THAT DOES VIOLATE THE CODE OF ETHICS AT HARVARD.

BUT AT THE PENCIL YOU TALK TO.

SOME PEOPLE I'’M TALKING TO IN HIGHER ED WHO HAVE OBSERVED THESE OPERATIONS ARE SAYING THEY ACQUITTED THEMSELVES.

FROM THE CULTURE WARS WE ARE SEEING.

OTHERS SAID IT WAS A DISASTER.

THEY SHOULD'’VE UNEQUIVOCALLY COME OUT AND SAID YES THAT IT VIOLATES OUR CODE, IF THERE ARE CALLS FOR GENOCIDE, THAT THAT VIOLATES OUR CODE.

SOME OF THESE PRESIDENTS ARE NEW.

SOME, IT IS THEIR FIRST SEMESTER.

THEY HAVE BEEN THROWN INTO THE FIRE HERE.

IT'’S NOT EASY.

CRYSTAL: IN FACT WE HAVE A CLIP FROM PRESIDENT CORNBLEUTH AS WELL, TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.

>> DOES CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS VIOLATE M.I.T.

'’S CODE OF CONDUCT OR RULES REGARDING BULLYING AND HARASSMENT, YES OR NO?

>> TARGETED AT INDIVIDUALS, NOT MAKING PUBLIC STATEMENTS.

>> YES OR NO?

CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE BULLYING AND HARASSMENT?

>> I HAVE NOT HEARD CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS ON OUR CAMPUS.

>> BUT YOU HAVE HEARD TRANSFER AND TO FLORIDA -- ENTIFADA.

>> CHANTS CAN BE ANTI-SEMITIC IN PUBLIC WHEN IT COMES TO THE ELIMINATION OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE.

CRYSTAL: THE PR FOLKS ARE LOOKING AT THIS AND GOING, I DON'’T KNOW IF I WOULD ADVISE IT THAT WAY.

KIRK: WE HAVE REPORTED AND COVERED PROTESTS, WHERE THERE HEARING SOME OF THESE CHANTS.

SOME ARE SAYING THEY HAVE NEVER HEARD THIS BEFORE.

OTHERS ARE SAYING THAT DOESN'’T NECESSARILY MEAN VIOLENCE.

IT IS A TRICKY SITUATION.

WHEN WE TALK TO FREE-SPEECH ADVOCATES WHO ARE TRYING TO INSTILL ROBUST DEBATE, I TALKED TO SOME PROFESSORS, ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS RIGHT NOW ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES IS PEOPLE ARE NOT EVEN TALKING TO EACH OTHER, SO WHEN YOU ARE NOT WERE IN COLLEGE -- WHEN YOU AND I WERE IN COLLEGE, THERE WAS A LOT OF ROBUST DEBATE.

YOU COULD HEAR PEOPLE WHO YOU DISAGREED WITH AND THERE WAS A LOT OF EXCHANGE.

AND IN THIS MOMENT IT SOUND LIKE PEOPLE ARE NOT EVEN TALKING TO EACH OTHER.

PART OF THAT I'’M HEARING IS SOCIAL MEDIA WHERE PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF SOMEONE CAPTURING IT ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND PUTTING IT ONLINE.

IF YOU ARE A PROFESSOR TRYING TO TEACH STUDENTS ABOUT THESE VERY COMPLEX ISSUES, IT'’S HARD TO HAVE A DISCUSSION IF PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF BEING CAPTURED ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND BROADCAST OF THE WORLD.

A LOT OF SCHOOLS ARE TURNING TO THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO WHICH IN 2014 AFTER A STUDENT PROTEST -- AFTER STUDENTS INVITED CONTROVERSIAL SPEAKERS ON CAMPUS, AND THOUGH SPEAKERS WERE DISINVITED, THEY DEVELOPED THE CHICAGO PRINCIPLES, BASICALLY CALLING FOR OVERARCHING ROBUST DEBATE AND FREE-SPEECH, AND IT TELLS COLLEGES THAT THERE IS NO OBLIGATION TO COMMENT ON EVERYTHING.

IF YOU FEEL OBLIGATED TO SPEAK UP AS AN INDIVIDUAL OR A PRESIDENT, YOU CAN SPEAK UP, SINCE THEN, MORE THAN 70 COLLEGES HAVE SIGNED ONTO THESE PRINCIPLES, AND INCLUDES GEORGETOWN, VIRGINIA TECH, PRINCETON, PURDUE, HARVARD HAS NOT SIGNED ONTO THESE.

CRYSTAL: I'’M SURE WE WILL BE HEARING A LOT MORE.

KIRK CARAPEZZA.

THINK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

WHEN CHARLES'’ PHONED TO CLAIM A BLACK MAN HAD SHOT HIM AND HIS PREGNANT WIFE IN ROXBURGH, IT IGNITED A FIRESTORM ACROSS THE CITY.

'’S CLAIMS WERE ULTIMATELY FOUND TO BE FALSE, BUT THE WEEKS LONG MANHUNT TO BLACKMAN ACROSS BOSTON ESCALATED RACIAL TENSIONS AND LEFT LASTING SCARS.

THE MURDER AND THE RIPPLE EFFECTS ARE A FOCUS OF A NEW HBO DOCUSERIES, "MURDER IN BOSTON," REPORTED IN COLLABORATION WITH THE BOSTON GLOBE.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US, DIRECTOR JASON HEHIR.

THIS IS A TOPIC THAT FOLKS FROM THE CITY OF BOSTON, IN AND AROUND THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS ARE FAMILIAR WITH.

AS YOU STARTED TO COMPILE THE INFORMATION WHAT WAS SORT OF THE, THROUGH-LINE, FROM THE INFORMATION, THE INTERVIEWS AND DATA YOU COLLECTED?

JASON: THAT PEOPLE REALLY HADN'’T TALK ABOUT -- TALKED ABOUT THIS AND CLOSE TO 34 YEARS.

THERE WAS A LOT OF RELUCTANCE FOR PEOPLE TO SIT DOWN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

HE HAD INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE MEDIA AND BOSTON CITY HALL AND THE BOSTON POLICE WHO DIDN'’T COME OUT LOOKING GREAT IN THIS, THEN THE FAMILY OF THE VICTIM, VERY PAINFUL THERE.

ALSO THE FAMILY OF THE ASSAILANT, THAT WAS ALSO VERY PAINFUL FOR THEM, TO TALK ABOUT.

YOU HAD THE FAMILY OF THE FALSELY ACCUSED ASSAILANT.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVEN'’T REALLY TRUSTED MEDIA WITH AT ALL OVER THE LAST FEW DECADES TO TALK ABOUT.

THE THROUGH-LINE WAS PEOPLE -- THIS WAS VERY PAINFUL FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE ON A LOT OF DIFFERENT LEVELS FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT REASONS AND THERE WAS A LOT OF RELUCTANCE TO DISCUSS THAT [AIN -- THAT PAIN.

CRYSTAL: IT HAPPENS AT A TIME WHEN BOSTON IS VERY RACIALLY DIVIDED WITH THE BUSING, BEFORE AND AFTER THIS MURDER, DID YOU FIND THAT THERE WERE PARALLELS TO SAY MODERN-DAY CASES?

I'’M THINKING POST GEORGE FLOYD?

JASON: CERTAINLY THE TIMING WAS RIGHT I THINK TO TELL THE STORY.

I WANTED TO TELL THE STORY FOR MANY YEARS.

I REMEMBER VIVIDLY WHEN I WAS 13 YEARS OLD AND ALL OF THIS HAPPENED, CONSUMING ALL OF THE NEWS BOTH ON TV AND IN THE LOCAL NEWSPAPERS, THE GLOBE AND THE HERALD, PARTICULARLY.

BUT THE EVENTS THAT HAVE UNFORTUNATELY OCCURRED IN THE LAST FEW YEARS AND THE LIGHT THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN ON THE TREATMENT OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY BY A LOT OF POLICE FORCES AROUND THE COUNTRY MADE THIS FEEL LIKE EXACTLY THE RIGHT TIME TO TELL THE STORY.

CRYSTAL: DID YOU FIND THAT OLD RESENTMENTS, OLD TENSIONS REMAINED AS YOU INTERVIEWED FOLKS FOR THIS PIECE, THINKING BACK ON 1989 AND THE EVENTS AFTERWARD?

JASON: NOT JUST 1989, THERE ARE CERTAIN COMMUNITIES IN BOSTON WHO HAVE HAD CONTENTIOUS RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE POLICE AND WITH BOSTON AS A WHOLE.

FOR GENERATIONS.

THAT'’S WHY WE CHOSE TO DIGRESS A LITTLE BIT IN EPISODE ONE AND GIVE VIEWERS A BIT OF CONTEXT, STARTING WITH THE BEGINNING OF WHAT HOWARD BRYANT CALLED THE MODERN HISTORY OF RACIAL AGENTS IN BOSTON WITH THE CARRY DECISION IN POST INTEGRATED BOSTON SCHOOLS.

THERE WERE SCARS THAT LINGERED FROM THAT THAT STILL HADN'’T HEALED.

THOSE HADN'’T HEALED AT THE TIME THE STEWARD CASE UNFOLDED.

YOU CAN ARGUE THOSE 10 WEEKS WHEN THEY WERE HUNTING FOR THE SO-CALLED "KILLER" OF CAROL STEWART AND HER BABY, CHRISTOPHER, YOU CAN ARGUE THAT WAS A MORE PAINFUL TIME FOR THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN BOSTON.

YES, THAT PAIN REMAINS.

CRYSTAL: IN FACT WE HAVE A CLIP FROM THE DOCUSERIES, HIGHLIGHTING BOSTON'’S RACE ISSUES AT THE TIME AND DESCRIBING THE AGGRESSIVE MANNERS OF POLICE OFFICERS TOWARDS BLACK MEN AFTER THE MURDER.

LET'’S TAKE A LISTEN.

>> HE HEARD THIS LEGEND OF BOSTON AS A BIRTHPLACE OF DEMOCRACY.

WE ALSO HAVE ANOTHER HISTORY AS WELL.

THAT PEOPLE WILL JUST CALL THIS THE MOST RACIST CITY IN AMERICA.

♪ >> I INSTRUCTED THE POLICE COMMISSIONER TO BE AS AGGRESSIVE AS THEY EVER HAVE BEEN BEFORE.

>> THEY TORE MY HOUSEHOLD APART.

>> THEY DROVE ME DOWN TO SOUTH BOSTON.

>> I ESCAPED.

>> HOW DID YOU HAPPEN TO COME HERE TONIGHT?

>> MY OWN FREE WILL.

>> MY OWN FREE WILL?

THAT'’S NOT TRUE.

CRYSTAL: ONE OF THE THINGS WE MENTIONED WAS THE FAMILIES CONTINUE TO BE AFFECTED BY THIS CASE AND THE AFTERMATH.

DID YOU FIND THAT IT WAS -- THAT THE GRIEF WAS THE SAME?

I GUESS I WOULD SAY, IS THE WAY THEY EXPERIENCED IT THE SAME, ARE THERE SIMILARITIES, OR WAS IT DIFFERENT?

JASON: WE DIDN'’T GET PARTICIPATION FROM THE STEWART FAMILY.

THEY DECLINED TO PARTICIPATE.

I UNDERSTAND WHY THEY WOULDN'’T WANT TO.

WE DID GET PARTICIPATION FROM THE SECOND FAMILY.

I CREDIT THEM TO BE VERY -- TO BEING BRAVE ENOUGH TO SIT IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA'’S TO TELL THEIR STORY AND TRUSTING ME WITH THESE FEELINGS THAT ARE DEEPLY PAINFUL FOR THEM TO DISCUSS TO THIS DAY.

CRYSTAL: YEAH.

SO THE STEWART FAMILY DID NOT EVEN HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH YOUR TEAM?

JASON: WE REACHED OUT TO THEM IN JUST ABOUT EVERY MANNER I THOUGHT POSSIBLE, INCLUDING EMAIL, PHONE, VOICEMAIL, SOCIAL MEDIA, FACEBOOK MESSAGES, FRIENDS AND ACCENTED FAMILY AROUND THE -- FRIENDS AND EXTENDED FAMILY AROUND THE BOSTON AREA.

BUT THEY CHOSE NOT TO AND I COMPLETELY RESPECT THAT.

THE STORY IS NOT ABOUT CHARLES STUART, IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW.

I WAS INTERESTED IN HIS PERSPECTIVE AND WHY HE KILLED CAROL AND COMMITTED THIS MONSTROUS ACT.

BUT I WAS MORE CONCERNED WITH TELLING THE STORY OF A COMMUNITY AND A FAMILY THAT HASN'’T BEEN ABLE TO PROPERLY EXPRESS THEIR PAIN FOR 34 YEARS.

CRYSTAL: I AM ALSO THINKING ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT IS FROM 1989 TO NOW.

IN THAT TIME WE HAD OUR FIRST BLOOD POLICE COMMISSIONER -- BLACK POLICE COMMISSIONER, FIRST BLACK HIGHER-UPS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

I'’M THOUGHTFUL OF, DO YOU THINK THIS CASE CHANGED THINGS WITHIN THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT OR AT LEAST THE AFTERMATH OF ITT?

JASON: IT WOULD HAVE DONE AN EIGHT OR 10 OR 12 PART SERIES, WE WOULD HAVE CERTAINLY EXAMINED IN THE DIRECT AFTERMATH OF THIS CASE THE CHANGES THE BOSTON POLICE TOOK -- THE EXTENT TO WHICH THEY CHANGED I SHOULD SAY.

IN HIRING A NEW POLICE COMMISSIONER AND INSTALLING COMMUNITY POLICING.

THE EFFECT THAT HAD ON QUELLING THE HOMICIDE RATE IN THE CITY.

SO THERE WERE SHORT-TERM EFFECTS THAT WERE A SILVER LINING FROM THIS CASE.

UNFORTUNATELY WE DIDN'’T GET INTO THAT BECAUSE HER STORY WAS JUST ABOUT THE STEWARD CASE AND EXAMINING THE HISTORY OF BOSTON THROUGH THE LENS OF THE CASE.

BUT CERTAINLY THERE WERE LEADERS -- TO OUR CURRENT LEADERS IN BOSTON AND ALL INSTITUTIONS WHO GREW UP IN BOSTON AT THE TIME AND REMEMBER THAT CASE VIVIDLY AND CITE IT AS ONE OF THE REASONS THEY WENT INTO POLITICS OR CITY OR GOVERNANCE, THEY WERE INSPIRED BY WHAT THEY SAW AND FRANKLY WHAT THEY DIDN'’T SEE, AS THIS CASE UNFOLDED.

CRYSTAL: DO YOU THINK SOMEONE WHO LIVED IN BOSTON OR CONTINUES TO LIVE IN BOSTON DURING THAT TIME WILL FIND A NEW PERSPECTIVE ON THE EVENTS, IN WATCHING THE DOCUSERIES?

JASON: I HOPE SO.

I HOPE ALL OF US WHO COME FROM BOSTON -- I DON'’T STILL LIVE THERE BUT I FREQUENTLY GO BACK AND A LOT OF MY FAMILY IS THERE.

IT WAS A PAINFUL TIME TO LOOK BACK ON FOR ALL OF US, AN EMBARRASSING TIME, BECAUSE MOST OF BOSTON BOUGHT INTO THIS LIE HOOK LINE AND SINKER AND THAT IS WHY I WAS INTERESTED IN TELLING THAT STORY, WHY WE BELIEVE D IT SO READILY WITHOUT CONSIDERING MAYBE THE HUSBAND HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT AND MAYBE IT'’S NOT THE BLACK MAN WHO DID THIS AS HE SAYS.

SO I DO THINK THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF SIMILARITIES THAT WE CAN SEE NOW IN THE CITY BUT I THINK WE HAVE MADE A LOT OF PROGRESS.

AS REVEREND JEFFREY BROWN SAYS IN OUR FINAL EPISODE, THERE'’S A LONG WAY TO GO.

BUT THE BOSTON OF TODAY BEARS NO RESEMBLANCE TO THE BOSTON OF 34 YEARS AGO.

CRYSTAL: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, JASON HEHIR.

NOW I WANT TO SWITCH GEARS TO THE LASTING IMPACT THAT THE MURDER AND SUBSEQUENT MANHUNT HAS HAD ON THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN BOSTON AT LARGE.

MY NEXT GUEST HAS FOLLOWED THE INVESTIGATION AND ITS IMPACT FROM THE BEGINNING AND RECOUNTS THE STORY SHARING WHAT POLICE AND THE MEDIA GOT WRONG AND IF ANYTHING HAS CHANGED IN THE CITY SINCE IN THE GLOBE'’S ACCOMPANYING PODCAST, "MURDER IN BOSTON."

BOSTON GLOBE ASSOCIATE EDITOR, ADRIAN WALKER, JOINS US NOW.

THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

THIS IS A CASE THAT HAS I ASSUME IN WHAT HAS READ AND RESEARCH REALLY CASTS A SHADOW ON THE CITY OF BOSTON -- PEOPLE STILL FEEL ITS IMPACT.

ADRIAN: PEOPLE STILL DO.

ABSOLUTELY.

I CALL IT THE COIN OF CENTRAL BOSTON STORY BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT IT RAISES ISSUE OF RACE, CLASS, MURDER, ETC.

CRYSTAL: THERE'’S ALSO A BACKDROP OF A VERY TUMULTUOUS TIME IN THE CITY OF BOSTON POST BUSING AND OTHER THINGS.

ADRIAN: IT WAS ITS OWN TUMULTUOUS TIME.

THAT'’S RIGHT.

CRYSTAL: WHAT WAS THE BACKDROP IN THE CITY, AS THIS MURDER HAD HAPPENED?

WHAT DID THE CITY LOOK LIKE?

WHAT WAS THE LANDSCAPE?

WHAT DID THE RACIAL TENSIONS LOOK LIKE?

ADRIAN: IT WAS A CITY BEGINNING TO EMERGE FROM THEIR RACIAL VIOLENCE -- THE 15 YEARS OF RACIAL VIOLENCE PROCTORED BY SCHOOL BUSING.

BUT MURDER WAS EXPLODING.

THERE WAS A LOT OF TENSION AND ANXIETY AROUND CRIME.

CRYSTAL: WHEN TALKING ABOUT THIS MANHUNT WE KNOW WAS FROM A FALSE CLAIM, IT REALLY START UP THOSE TENSIONS AGAIN, OR EVEN HEIGHTENED THEM IN THE CITY OF BOSTON.

ADRIAN: ABSOLUTELY.

AT THE CORE OF THE STORY, PART OF THE ANXIETY OF THIS IS YOU HAVE THIS WHITE COUPLE FROM THE SUBURBS, WHO HAVE SUPPOSEDLY BEEN IN THE CITY, THE RACISM THAT GOES WITH IT.

CRYSTAL: WHAT ARE THE TENSIONS BETWEEN THE POLICE AND THE COMMUNITY OF COLOR, THE BLACK COMMUNITY LOOK LIKE THEN?

ADRIAN: THEY WERE QUITE AND -- WERE QUITE INTENSE.

THERE WAS ALREADY A LOT OF TENSION.

COURT CASES ABOUT THIS.

THE POLICE HAD BEEN ORDERED TO STOP BY THE COURT.

THIS JUST IGNITED IT THAT MUCH MORE.

CRYSTAL: HOW WAS IT COVERED?

HOW DID THAT SORT OF IMPACT THE WAY PEOPLE PERCEIVED THAT CASE?

ADRIAN: THE WAY WHAT WAS COVERED?

CRYSTAL: THE WAY THE STORY WAS COVERED, THE MURDER.

ADRIAN: RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING IT WAS LIKE THIS HUGE EXPLOSION.

PEOPLE WHO WALKED INTO THE NEWSROOM THE NEXT MORNING TALKED ABOUT HOW IT WASN'’T LIKE ANOTHER DAY.

EVEN THOUGH THIS WAS AT A TIME WHEN MURDER WAS EXPLODING.

I HATE TO SAY IT BUT PEOPLE WERE GETTING SHOT.

BUT THIS WAS DIFFERENT BECAUSE THE COUPLE WAS WHITE AND THAT HAPPENED IN MISSION HILL AND BECAUSE SHE WAS PREGNANT.

IT WAS JUST IMMEDIATELY THIS THING THAT WE DID NOT SEE TYPICALLY COVERING HOMICIDES.

CRYSTAL: WE MENTIONED IN THE INTRO THERE WERE THINGS THE MEDIA GOT WRONG, OR AT LEAST AND PRACTICE.

ADRIAN: THERE WERE THINGS EVERYBODY GOT WRONG.

A SUSPECT WAS NAMED WHO WAS NEVER CHARGED.

A SECOND SUSPECT, BENNETT, WAS NAMED AND NEVER CHARGED.

THE OFFICIAL STORY ALL FELL APART.

JANUARY 4, 1990, STEWART JUMPS OFF THE BRIDGE.

CRYSTAL: WHAT WAS THE FEELING OF THAT DAY WHEN THAT HAPPENED?

ADRIAN: THE FIRST FEELING WAS, ALL MY GOD, YOU KNOW?

BECAUSE EVERYBODY REALIZED IN ONE MOMENT THAT EVERYTHING HAD BEEN WRONG FOR 2.5 MONTHS.

THERE WAS A FEELING OF BEING DUPED, OF GREAT ANGER, ON THE PART OF OFFICIALS, A LOT OF EMBARRASSMENT, A LOT OF EMOTIONS.

NONE OF THEM GOOD.

CRYSTAL: SPEAKING OF EMOTIONS RUNNING HIGH, WE KNOW THE IMPACT CONTINUES TO BE FELT.

NANCY GAERTNER, THE ATTORNEY FOR MATTHEW STEWART ON BPR YESTERDAY WHEN ASKED ABOUT THE GLOBE REPORT THAT ALLEGES STEWART HAD MORE TO DO WITH THE CRIME THAN ORIGINALLY THOUGHT, THIS IS WHAT SHE HAD TO SAY.

>> THE GLOBE HAS GOTTEN IT COMPLETELY WRONG.

IT HAS TAKEN ON THE ROLE OF A TABLOID.

REALLY MISCHARACTERIZING GRAND JURY TESTIMONY.

I'’LL GIVE YOU A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES.

SO ONE WITNESS THEY DESCRIBED SAW A MAN GET OUT OF THE BACKSEAT OF THE CAR AND STAND BY THE CAR.

THE WITNESS NEVER SAID THAT.

ANOTHER ONE SAYS, I SAW -- I WAS DRAWN TO THIS MAN IN THE BACKSEAT.

THAT THAT IS WHAT I SAW WHEN THE CAR WAS DRIVING PAST ME.

THE WITNESS NEVER SAID THAT.

I CAN GO ON AND ON AND ON.

THE GLOBE HAS COMPLETELY DISTORTED AND MISCHARACTERIZED GRAND JURY TESTIMONY THAT I HAVE AND THAT I KNOW.

ADRIAN: WHAT SHE SAYS IS COMPLETELY PREPOSTEROUS.

I'’VE KNOWN NANCY GAERTNER FOREVER.

I HAD -- I HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR HER BUT SHE MISCHARACTERIZED WHAT WAS IN THE STORY.

THEY DO NOT SAY WHAT SHE SAYS THEY SAY.

A LOT OF THESE DOCUMENTS ARE ONLINE.

ON GLOBE.COM.

YOU CAN READ THE PEOPLES GRAND JURY TESTIMONY FOR YOURSELF.

WHAT YOU WILL SEE WHEN YOU DO THAT IS THEY DON'’T SAY WHAT GAERTNER SAYS THEY SAY.

WHAT THE STORY SAYS ABOUT MATTHEW STEWART -- THERE ARE CONTINUING QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS ROLE IN THE CASE.

THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN QUESTIONS ABOUT IT.

COULD CHUCK STEWART HAVE DONE THIS ON HIS OWN, DID HE REALLY SHOOT HIMSELF, DID HE HAVE HELPED?

WE KNOW THAT HE SOUGHT HELP.

WE KNOW HE ASKED AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE TO HELP HIM MURDER HIS WIFE.

AND THE QUESTION IS -- WHAT WAS MATTHEW STEWART'’S REAL ROLE?

WE HAVE RAISED THAT QUESTION AND THAT'’S A COMPLETELY FAIR QUESTION.

CRYSTAL: THAT SEEMS INTERESTING THIS WOULD BE THE RESPONSE, AS 34 YEARS LATER FROM WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW.

ADRIAN: IT IS INTERESTING.

IT'’S NOT A TYPICAL RESPONSE.

THE RESPONSE I'’VE GOTTEN FOR THIS SERIES IS OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE.

IT IS NOT THIS AT ALL.

CRYSTAL: YOU FINE FOLKS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY KNOW THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS AGAIN, NOW THAT PEOPLE ARE RE-EXAMINING THIS CASE IN MODERN TIMES WITH A MODERN LENS ARE REACTING DIFFERENTLY TO IT?

ADRIAN: SO MANY PEOPLE I CALLED ABOUT THIS STORY SAID, I'’M SO GLAD SOMEBODY IS LOOKING AT THIS.

I'’VE ALWAYS WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

AS DANIEL WILKINSON SAID TO ME, WE JUST STOPPED TALKING ABOUT THIS.

WE NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

MY FONDEST HOPE FOR THIS PROJECT IS THAT IT WILL PROMPT A CONVERSATION ABOUT RACE AND CLASS AND THE CRIME AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT WE DID NOT HAVE IN 1990.

CRYSTAL: I'’M ALSO THOUGHTFUL AND I ASKED THE DOCUSERIES DIRECTOR, JASON HEIR, THIS QUESTION AS WELL, ABOUT TAKING THIS CASE, THERE WAS A PRESCIENT TO SOLVE -- PRESSURE TO SOLVE IT, A BACK OF RACIAL TENSIONS, IT FEELS A LOT LIKE POST GEORGE FLOYD.

AND YOU CANNOT HELP BUT COMPARE THE TWO.

DID YOU FEEL THAT COMPARISON AS WELL AS YOU CONTINUE TO REPORT ON THIS, AND GO INTO THIS PODCAST AND DOCUSERIES?

ADRIAN: ABSOLUTELY.

THE QUESTIONS RAISED ABOUT THE MEDIA ARE THE SAME THAT YOU WILL SEE IN OTHER STORIES.

THESE QUESTIONS HAVE NEVER GONE AWAY.

CRYSTAL: WHAT ARE THE LESSONS LEARNED IN YOUR MIND FROM THAT CASE AND OF COURSE NOW WE KNOW THE SUBSEQUENT CASES, AS WE TRY TO LOOK AT POLICING IN THAT LENS ?

>> THE BIG LESSON FOR ME AND OTHER JOURNALISTS IS BE CAREFUL ABOUT BELIEVING OFFICIAL STORIES.

QUESTION THEM AND QUESTION THEM SOME MORE.

>> WHAT DO YOU HOPE PEOPLE TAKE AWAY FROM THE PODCAST, THIS WORK AND THE DOCUSERIES THE GLOBE HAS PARTNERED WITH?

ADRIAN: WHAT I HOPE PEOPLE WILL TAKE AWAY IS THAT THIS IS A REALLY VITAL PIECE OF BOSTON HISTORY AND WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHAT IT'’S STILL HAS TO SAY TO US.

CRYSTAL: DO YOU THINK IT'’S CHANGED THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT GOING THROUGH EVERYTHING?

HAS IT HAD AN IMPACT ON POLICING IN THE CITY OF BOSTON?

ADRIAN: ABSOLUTELY.

ULTIMATELY THE POLICE COMMISSIONER WAS PUSHED OUT OF OFFICE.

IT TOOK A COUPLE OF YEARS BUT IT HAPPENED AND IT WAS A RESULT OF THIS.

INITIALLY IT WAS TERRIBLE FOR POLICE-COMMUNITY RELATIONS BUT IT MADE THE POLICE REALIZE THEY HAD TO BUILD STRONGER CONNECTIONS.

I THINK THEY HAVE PUT SOME EFFORT INTO THAT.

CRYSTAL: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, ADRIAN WALKER.

THE FIRST EPISODE OF "MURDER IN BOSTON" IS AVAILABLE NOW ON MAX.

YOU CAN LISTEN TO THE FIRST THREE EPISODES OF THE GLOBE'’S ACCOMPANYING PODCAST ON ALL STREAMING PLATFORMS AND THAT BOSTONGLOBE.COM.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT BUT DO COME BACK TOMORROW FOR TALKING POLITICS.

THEY WILL BREAK DOWN THE LATEST PRESIDENTIAL POLL PROJECTING A SHARP DECLINE IN YOUTH VOTER TURNOUT FOR 2024.

THEN PRESIDENTS OF THE BOSTON POLICE PATROLMAN'’S ASSOCIATION, LARRY CALDERON, WILL JOIN TO DISCUSS THE UNION'’S NEW CONTRACT WITH THE CITY AND THE POLICE REFORMS IN IT.

NEST TOMORROW AT 7 P.M.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR WATCHING -- THAT'’S TOMORROW AT 7 P.M.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

I'’M CRYSTAL HAYNES.

GOOD NIGHT.

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