>> VERMONT CRIMINAL JUSTICE COUNSEL VOTES TO PERMANENTLY REVOKE SHERIFF JOHN GRISMORE'S CERTIFICATION AFTER DETERMINING HE USED EXCESSIVE FORCE WHEN HE KICKED A HANDCUFFED AND SHACKLED MAN IN THE GROIN.

>> NO REMORSE ON THE PART OF THE SHERIFF BEING A SUPERVISOR, AND THE COUNCIL WANTED TO MAKE A STATEMENT ABOUT THE STANDARDS THAT IT EXPECTS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THE STATE AND THE BEAUTY OF IT IS THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT VOTED YES.

>> SENATOR SANDERS JOINS SENATE REPUBLICANS IN BLOCKING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN FOREIGN FUNDING SAYING HE WILL NOT SUPPORT ADDITIONAL MILITARY AID TO ISRAEL WITHOUT CONDITIONS.

>> A NEW POLL SHOWS VERMONTERS CONCERNED ABOUT THE DIRECTION THE STATE IS HEADED AND A STARK CONTRAST BETWEEN APPROVAL RATINGS OF THE GOVERNOR AND THE STATE LEGISLATURE.

AHEAD ON "VERMONT THIS WEEK."

>> FROM THE VERMONT PUBLIC STUDIO IN WINOOSKI, THIS IS "VERMONT THIS WEEK," MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE LINTILHAC FOUNDATION AND MILNE TRAVEL.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

I'M MARK JOHNSON.

WE HAVE A FULL LINEUP TODAY.

IT'S FRIDAY, DECEMBER 8.

JOINING ME ON THE PANEL EDITOR VERMONT BUSINESS MAGAZINE TIM MCQUISTON.

DEPUTY EDITOR FOR SEVEN DAYS, SASHA GOLDSTEIN AS WELL AS SARAH MEARHOFF OF VERMONT DIGGER.

THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.

THE VIDEO THAT I WOULD DARESAY FEW VERMONTERS HAVEN'T SEEN WE HAVE SOME ACTION ON THAT TONIGHT THAT WE'LL TALK ABOUT MORE.

FIRST WE'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM THE FRANKLIN COUNTY SHERIFF JOHN GRISMORE.

>> THIS IS GOING TO CAUSE A TREMENDOUS RUPP LINK EFFECT THROUGHOUT THE ORGANIZATION SO JOB ONE FOR ME IS DAMAGE CONTROL.

>> HOPEFULLY LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS WHO MIGHT THINK OF ENGAGING IN KIND OF CONDUCT WILL THINK NOT JUST TWICE BUT MANY MORE TIMES THAN TWICE BEFORE ENGAGING IN THIS WAY.

>> SARAH, START US OFF HERE.

THIS STORY REALLY SEEMED TO TAKE ON A LIFE OF ITS OWN.

WHY IS THIS SUCH A BIG DEAL?

>> AS FOR WHY IT'S SUCH A BIG DEAL, LIKE YOU SAID THE VIDEO SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

IT'S SUCH A GRISLY VIDEO, REALLY, OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH SHERIFF JOHN GRISMORE AND A PERSON WHO WAS IN CUSTODY.

HE KICKED A SHACKLED MAN IN THE GROIN WHICH MANY PEOPLE HAVE SAID IS A VIOLATION OF USE OF FORCE POLICY FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER.

SO THE DEVELOPMENT THAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK WAS THAT THE VERMONT CRIMINAL JUSTICE COUNCIL VOTED ALMOST UNANIMOUSLY, NOT QUITE, 15-1 VOTE, TO DECERTIFY JOHN GRISMORE.

SO HE IS NOT TECHNICALLY ABLE TO SERVE AS A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER ANY MORE.

BUT IN FACT AS A SHERIFF WHICH IS AN ELECTED OFFICE HE CAN TILL SERVE AS SHERIFF OF FRANKLIN COUNTY STILL.

>> THIS IS DIFFERENT THAN IF IT WAS A POLICE OFFICER, THIS WHOLE SAVE SYSTEM WE HAVE IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT IN VERMONT.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH.

THE SHERIFFS IN VERMONT ARE NOT REALLY FUNDED BY TAXPAYERS.

SO A LOT OF THE THINGS THEY DO ARE SORT OF PRISONER TRANSPORTS.

THEY ADOPT DO A LOT OF BEAT PATROL SORT OF POLICING LIKE YOU SEE IN CITIES.

YOU'LL SEE THEM AT CONSTRUCTION SITES.

THEY DON'T HAVE AS MUCH HANDS ON ENFORCING THE LAW DUTIES.

THEY STILL CAN, SO THAT'S WHAT MAKES THIS A REALLY INTERESTING CASE.

OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE SEEN A TON OF PRESSURE ON SHERIFF GRISMORE TO RESIGN, TO STEP DOWN.

HE IS RESOUNDINGLY SAID NO.

THE STATE IS PRACTICALLY PULLING ANY LEVER IT CAN IN THIS CASE, OBVIOUSLY WE HEARD FROM THE VERMONT CRIMINAL JUSTICE COUNCIL.

THERE'S AN ONGOING IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDING WHICH WOULD ACTUALLY COULD END WITH HIM BEING REMOVED FROM OFFICE BUT THAT'S THE ONLY OPTION AT THIS POINT LEFT UNLESS HE RESIGNS.

THE ONLY WAY TO GET RID MUCH HIM IS THIS IMPEACHMENT OR IF HE'S UP FOR ELECTION AGAIN AND HE'S VOTED OUT.

IT'S REALLY AN ASTONISHING CASE ONE WE HAVEN'T SEEN IN MANY, MANY YEARS.

>> TIM YOU HAVE BEEN AROUND A WHILE.

I DON'T RECALL EVER A VIDEO THAT'S GOTTEN MORE PLAY-ACTIONER MORE COVERAGE THAN THIS.

DO YOU?

>> THERE WAS THE ST. ALBANS CASE IN WHICH I WAS WATCHING THIS VIDEO JUST NOW IN WHICH FELLOW OFFICERS TURNED IN THE POLICE OFFICER.

THE OTHER INTERESTING THING SASHA TALKED ABOUT, THE VOTE, THIS INCIDENT CAME OUT BEFORE HE WAS ELECTED AND THE GOVERNOR WAS ASKED ABOUT IT AND HE SAID, WELL, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE KNEW WHAT HE WAS AND VOTED HIM IN ANYWAY.

I BELIEVE HE RAN UNCONTESTED.

THERE WERE SOME WRITE-IN VOTES.

IT'S AN INTERESTING PROCESS ABOUT THIS AND MARK YOU WERE TALKING EARLIER BEFORE THE SHOW IN THE PREP ABOUT HOW VIDEO AND BODY CAMS ARE CHANGING ABOUT HOW WE PERCEIVE LAW ENFORCEMENT BECAUSE THERE WILL BE EYES ON EVERYBODY.

>> I'M NOT SURE MANY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BELIEVED THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED IF WE DIDN'T HAVE THE VIDEO.

>> EXACTLY.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS IMPEACHMENT PROCESS.

SARAH, YOU COVER THE LEGISLATURE.

HOW LIKELY IS IT THAT LAWMAKERS ARE GOING TO WANT TO TAKE THIS UP?

>> I THINK THAT THEY SIGNALED QUITE AN APPETITE TO TAKE THIS UP IN THE SPRING WHEN THEY WERE STILL IN THE 2023 LEGISLATIVE SESSION, THE FACT THAT THEY KICKED OFF THESE IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS AGAINST BOTH GRISMORE AND FRANKLIN COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY JOHN LAVOIE, WHO DID EVENTUAL WILLINGLY STEP DOWN AFTER THESE IMPEACHMENT INVESTIGATIONS BEGAN.

I DON'T THINK THEY WOULD HAVE DONE THAT AND MADE SUCH A SPLASH OUT OF IT THE WAY THAT THEY DID IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE SOME FORM OF APPETITE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS.

THERE'S ALSO BEEN SHOWN TO BE SOME WILLINGNESS IN THE LEGISLATURE TO DO SHERIFF REFORMS.

I THINK WE'LL PROBABLY SEE MORE OF THAT THIS YEAR, I WOULD ANTICIPATE NLIGHT OF ALL OF THIS.

AS FOR WHETHER THEY ACTUALLY HAVE THE VOTES TO IMPEACH HIM AND REMOVE HIM FROM OFFICE, I THINK THAT'S REALLY A QUESTION OF WHAT THE INVESTIGATION CONCLUDES, WHICH WE FRANKLY DON'T KNOW ALL THAT 67 ABOUT BECAUSE SO MANY OF THE PROCEEDINGS HAVE BEEN CLOSED DOOR.

>> ON THE ONE HAND THE SHERIFF SERVES FOR FOUR YEARS NOT TWO, WHICH IS I THINK SOMETHING A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND IF THE LEGISLATURE TAKES THIS UP, DOESN'T THIS HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO REALLY TAKE A LOT OF THEIR ATTENTION WHEN THEY HAVE SO MANY OTHER THINGS TO DO?

>> I THINK THERE'S AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE THERE, YEAH.

PROBABLY HAVE AN ENTIRE SHOW ON THE PRIORITIES.

WE MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE AN ENTIRE SHOW -- >> WE ACTUALLY DO.

>> ON THE PRIORITIES AHEAD OF THE LEGISLATURE THIS YEAR.

THERE'S ALSO THE DYNAMIC OF IT BEING AN ELECTION YEAR FOR LAWMAKERS.

THEY CAN DECIDE WHETHER THEY WANT TO MAKE SPLASHY STATEMENTS AND LAWS IN A YEAR WHEN THEY WILL BE ON THE BALLOT TOO.

I'M NOT QUITE SURE IF WE CAN LOOK INTO THE CRYSTAL BALL AT THIS POINT AS TO WHETHER THAT WILL HAVE MUCH OF AN IMPACT ON GRISMORE HIMSELF.

I'M REALLY EAGER TO SEE WHAT THE ULTIMATE DECISION OF THE IMPEACHMENT COMMITTEE IS.

>> LET'S SWITCH TO WASHINGTON.

YOU WROTE THIS WEEK ABOUT SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS VOTING AGAINST MORE AID TO NOT ONLY ISRAEL BUT SOME OTHER ISSUES THAT WERE ON THE TABLE AND WHY DID THEY VOTE THE WAY THAT HE DID.

>> THIS SUPPLEMENTAL PANEL BEFORE CONGRESS WAS A ROUGHLY $110 BILLION SUPPLEMENTAL FOREIGN AID PACKAGE THAT WOULD SEND MONEY TO PRIMARILY UKRAINE WAS ACTUALLY THE MAIN PRIORITY IN THIS.

ABOUT 60 BILLION I BELIEVE TO UKRAINE.

IN TOTAL 14 BILLION TO ISRAEL.

SENATOR SANDERS TOOK THE POSITION THAT HE DID NOT WANT TO WRITE A PLANK CHECK TO ISRAEL CONSIDERING SOME OF THEIR TACTICS THAT THEY ARE UTILIZING IN THE WAR AGAINST HAMAS RIGHT NOW.

PARTICULARLY WITHIN THAT 14 BILLION ROUGHLY 4 BILLION WOULD GO TOWARD DEFENSIVE SYSTEMS LIKE THE IRON DOME.

HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

HIS PROBLEM WAS WHAT HE CALLED THE BLANK CHECK OF ROUGHLY 10 BILLION THAT DID NOT HAVE CONDITIONS ON IT.

HE TOOK REAL ISSUE WITH THAT CONSIDERING THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN GAZA RIGHT NOW.

>> SASHA, TALK ABOUT SENATOR SANDERS' APPROACH TO THIS WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST COMPARED TO SENATOR WELCH AND REPRESENTATIVE BALINT.

>> IT'S BEEN REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE RIGHT OFF THE BAT RIGHT AFTER OCTOBER 7th WHEN HAMAS HAD THIS TERRORIST ATTACK, HE WAS I THINK THE FIRST PERSON TO COME OUT WITH A STATEMENT AT LEAST IN VERMONT SAYING ISRAEL LIKE TEMPER YOURSELF IN YOUR RESPONSE.

HE DID EARLY ON SAY LET'S THINK ABOUT THIS BEFORE WE GO BOMBS AMAZING INTO GAZA, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENED.

>> I THINK THE PHRASE WAS REVENGE IS NOT A GOOD POLICY.

>> EXACTLY.

WE HAVE SEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE ASKING FOR CEASE-FIRE.

THAT'S BEEN THE BIG BUZZWORD YOU'RE SAYING YOU'RE FOR A CEASE-FIRE OR IF YOU'RE NOT YOU'RE ALMOST AGAINST IT.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN WITH SENATOR SANDERS IS HE'S ACTUALLY LAID OUT A PRETTY GOOD CASE FOR THINGS THAT REPAWNS TO SEE IN THIS WAR, AND A WAY TO NOT RESOLVE, I DON'T WANT TO SAY RESOLVE BUT AT LEAST SLOW THINGS DOWN.

SO HE HAD A BIG "NEW YORK TIMES" OP-ED OUTLINING HIS VIEWS ON THIS.

HE IS TALKING ABOUT CONDITIONING THIS AID TO ISRAEL AND THAT'S ALMOST MORE I WOULD ARGUE THAN HIS COLLEAGUES SENATOR WELCH AND BECCA BALINT IN THE THE HOUSE, WHO HAVE BOTH CALLED FOR A CEASE-FIRE BUT HAVE NOT LAID OUT THE EXACT THINGS HE HAS.

ALL THREE HAVE EXPRESSED HORROR ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE CIVILIAN POPULATION THERE.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT'S SOMETHING THEY ARE ALL IN AGREEMENT ON BUT NONE HAS BEEN AS DETAILED AS HE HAS.

EVEN THOUGH SENATOR SANDERS HASN'T SAID THAT KEY WORD CEASE-FIRE, AND THERE WAS SOME REPORTING IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" THAT HURT HIS STANDING WITH HIS VERY PROGRESSIVE BASE THAT FEELS KIND OF HURT BY THIS AFTER STANDING WITH HIM OBVIOUSLY IN 2016 AND 2020 WHEN HE WAS THE UNDERDOG THEY FEEL LIKE THIS IS TURNING HIS BACK ON THEM IN A WAY.

>> TIM, AGAIN, YOU HAVE BEEN AROUND AWHILE, I HAVE TOO.

IS THIS STRIKING YOU AS BEING OUT OF THE ORDINARY FOR BERNIE TO DO?

>> OH I THINK ABSOLUTELY.

I DON'T THINK HIS BASE AS YOU MENTIONED IS EXPECTING NUANCE.

THERE'S A LOT OF BLOW-BACK ON SOCIAL ABOUT THIS FROM HIM.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY DOES IT MATTER TO HIS POLITICAL FUTURE?

I THINK THE ANSWER TO THAT IS NO GIVEN HIS STANDING HERE IN VERMONT.

HE'S BUILT UP SO MUCH CREDIBILITY ON THAT SIDE OF IT.

THE OTHER THING I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS, THE MAJOR PART OF THIS IS UKRAINE.

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE UKRAINE FUNDING?

THEY ARE ACTIVELY TRYING TO BEAT OFF A TYRANT TRYING TO INVADE THEIR COUNTRY, AND THE MIDDLE EAST SUCKS UP SO MUCH POLITICAL ENERGY THAT HOW DO YOU GET PAST THAT TO MAKE WHAT IS REALLY A SUBSTANTIAL EFFORT IN HELPING AN ALLY OF OURS.

>> WELL, STAY TUNED.

SASHA, BRING US BACK HOME HERE TO BURLINGTON.

OUR TOP STORY LAST WEEK WAS THE SHOOTING OF THE THREE STUDENTS.

TELL US WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THEIR CONDITION TO START OFF.

>> SURE.

WE HEARD I THINK JUST YESTERDAY THAT THE LAST OF THE THREE YOUNG COLLEGE STUDENTS WAS RELEASED FROM THE HOSPITAL.

HE WAS ACTUALLY TRANSFERRED TO BOSTON AREA TO GO INTO REHAB.

HE WAS THE MOST SEVERELY INJURED AS WE HEARD THIS WEEK IT APPEARS HE'S PARALYZED FROM THE CHEST DOWN.

BUT WCAX HAD FOOTAGE OF HIM LEAVING THE HOSPITAL, THE NEXT STAGE BUT IT WAS A JOYOUS OCCASION IN A WAY THAT HE HAD PROGRESSED ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

THAT'S OBVIOUSLY GOOD NEWS.

I KNOW WE HAVE HEARD AS WELL ABOUT SOME BIG FUND-RAISING CAMPAIGNS FOR THESE YOUNG MEN, IN HIS CASE IN PARTICULAR IT WILL COST MANY MILLIONS FOR HIS CONTINUING CARE.

THERE'S SOME POSITIVE NEWS COMING OUT OF IT BUT STILL ESPECIALLY FOR HIM A LONG WAYS TO GO.

>> YOU WROTE AN INCREDIBLY DEEP AND I REALLY GIVE YOU A LOT OF CREDIT, EXCELLENT PIECE, A REAL FORENSIC ANALYSIS YOU DID OF THE SUSPECT IN THIS CASE.

WHAT DID YOU FIND IN PARTICULAR, WHAT DID YOU FIND IN TERMS OF THE CALLS WERE A HATE CRIME?

>> IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING CASE BECAUSE IT CAME OUT AS A CALLS FOR IT AS A HATE CRIME RIGHT AWAY.

WHAT WE WERE HEARING RIGHT OFF THE BAT THERE WAS SOME DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER THERE HAD BEEN AN ARGUMENT AHEAD OF TIME.

WHAT WE LATER LEARNED WAS THE SHOOTER JASON EDEN DIDN'T SAY A WORD BEFORE HE OPENED FIRE.

THE WAY WE CHARACTERIZED IT IN THIS STORY WAS THAT HE HAS JUST COMPLICATED VIEWS THAT YOU REALLY CAN'T PIGEON HOLE.

THAT REALLY PINNING A MOTIVATION ON HIM MIGHT BE DIFFICULT AND PROVING IT BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT EVEN MORE SO.

I THINK WE HAVEN'T HEARD ANYTHING FROM THE CHITTENDEN COUNTY STATE'S ATTORNEY'S OFFICE IN THE NEARLY TWO WEEKS IT'S BEEN SINCE HE WAS CHARGED.

THAT'S KIND OF WHAT EVERYONE IS WAITING FOR, IS WILL IT BE A HATE CRIME.

THAT'S AN ENHANCEMENT TO THE THREE CHARGES OF SECOND DEGREE ATTEMPTED MURDER HE ALREADY FACES.

BUT WE FOUND -- THIS WAS A PERSON VERY COMPLICATED.

HE WAS A VOLUNTEER ON ONE HAND BUT HE SCARED DOMESTIC PARTNERS TO THE POINT WHERE THEY CONTACTED POLICE.

HE HAD THESE VIEWS ABOUT ECONOMICS AND FINANCE BUT HE WAS ALSO THIS BACK TO THE LANDER KIND OF SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE PERSON, AND HE WAS PROLIFIC ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND LINKED IN AND HIS OWN PERSONAL WEBSITE WHERE HE KEPT METICULOUS DETAILED DOCUMENTS BACK TO LIKE LETTERS OF RECOMMENDATION FROM HIS ENGLISH TEACHER IN 1994.

THE BIGGEST THING THAT WE FOUND WAS HIS TWITTER ACCOUNT IS ACTUALLY -- X, RATHER, TO THE POEUPBLT YOU HAVE TO BE A FOLLOWER OF HIS TO LOOK AT THE TWEETS.

HE FOUND SOMEONE WHO WAS A FOLLOWER AND THEY SHARED WITH US SOME OF THE TWEETS.

HE ACTUALLY HAD SOME THAT WERE SEEMED TO SHOW SOME SYMPATHY FOR THE PALESTINIAN SIDE IN THE WEEKS AFTER THE HAMAS ATTACK, WHICH I THOUGHT WAS QUITE REMARKABLE CONSIDERING WHAT HE HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF AND THE CALLS WE'RE HEARING.

HE SAID THAT THE PALESTINIANS DESERVE A STATE.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO HAPPEN IF YOU'RE OKAY PALMAR HYPERHYDROSIS?

OF COURSE YOU'LL FIGHT BACK.

THESE ARE KIND OF INCREDIBLE CLAIMS TO SEE HIM HAVE FEELINGS THAT HE HAD GIVEN WHAT THE RHETORIC HAS BEEN AROUND WHETHER HE FACES A CHARGE OR NOT.

>> THE LEGISLATURE WILL BE HEADING BACK INTO SESSION IN JUST A FEW WEEKS.

BEFORE WE GET TO SOME OF THE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE RESPONSE IN A RECENT POLL, SARAH, THIS STORY OUT OF MONTPELIER IS INCREDIBLE TO BELIEVE THAT OUR STATE CAPITAL DOESN'T HAVE A POST OFFICE.

WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?

>> IT'S UNBELIEVABLE, YEAH.

AS EVERYONE KNOWS MONTPELIER AND A SLEW OF OTHER TOWNS IN VERMONT EXPERIENCED CATASTROPHIC FLOODING OVER THE SUMMER.

IT HIT STATE STREET IN MONTPELIER EXTREMELY HARD ON WHICH IS THE FEDERAL BUILDING.

PRETTY CLOSE TO THE CAPITAL, ACTUALLY.

THE SENSE I HAVE GOTTEN FROM STATE LEADERS IS THEY HAVE READY RADIO SILENCE FROM THE FEDS.

IT'S A FEDERAL BUILDING THE FEDS ARE IN CHARGE OF MAINTAINING IT INCLUDING FLOOD RECOVERY IN THIS SITUATION AND GETTING IT TO THE POINT WHERE IT CAN BE OCCUPIED AGAIN.

WITHIN THAT BUILDING WERE SEVERAL FEDERAL AGENCIES, USDA HAD FOLKS THERE, OTHER OFFICES.

NOT JUST THE POST OFFICE BUT PROBABLY MOST IMPORTANT TO MONTPELIER RESIDENTS IN THE CAPITAL CITY OF OUR STATE WAS THE POST OFFICE.

YEAH, THERE'S NO HOME RIGHT NOW, PERMANENT HOME FOR THE POST OFFICE.

I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE STILL WORKING OUT OF A VAN I THINK AT THIS POINT.

THE TIMELINE IS I DON'T EVEN THINK YOU COULD SIGH IT'S UNCLEAR.

IT'S NONEXISTENT WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE.

>> AMONG THOSE THAT WERE INCREDULOUS ABOUT THIS WERE GOVERNOR PHIL SCOTT.

>> I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF IT TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

THIS ISN'T SOME SMALL TOWN THAT JUST LOST A FEW POST OFFICE BOXES.

THIS IS OUR CAPITAL CITY.

THEY SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION.

I BELIEVE.

BUT THEY DON'T APPEAR TO BE.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS POLL.

THE CAMPAIGN FOR VERMONT, AN ORGANIZATION THAT GREW OUT OF THE GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN OF REPUBLICAN BRUCE LISMAN HAS CONTINUED TO STAY ON AFTER THAT AND CAME OUT WITH SOME INTERESTING NUMBERS THIS WEEK.

I WOULDN'T SAY THEY HAVE BEEN NECESSARILY POSITIVE.

TIM, START US OFF.

WHAT STOOD OUT FOR YOU IN THIS?

>> WELL, A FEW THINGS.

ONE, IT'S HIGHLY NEGATIVE.

THEY TALK ABOUT HOUSING, EVERYONE AGREES THAT HOUSING IS IN REALLY PWAP SHAPE, VERY, VERY EXPENSIVE.

THEY TALK ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE, 73% SAYING IT'S NEGATIVE IN THIS POLL.

WHICH MIGHT BE SOME REACTION TO THE FLOODING THAT SARAH WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, INFRASTRUCTURE LOOKS BAD AND THE REST, BUT THAT ASIDE, THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION WAS NEGATIVE 57%.

THAT'S -- PEOPLE SEEM REALLY AN BRING.

I THINK THE LEGISLATURE GOT REALLY BAD NUMBERS.

THE GOVERNOR GOT VERY GOOD NUMBERS AS HE HAS ALL ALONG.

LEGISLATURES AND CONGRESS TRY TO GET BAD NUMBERS.

THAT'S THE NATURE OF THE BEAST.

BUT I THINK WHAT THE CAMPAIGN FOR VERMONT, WHICH IS REPUBLICAN LEANING FAIR TO SAY, BUT WHAT THE LEGISLATURE HAS TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT PEOPLE ARE UNSATISFIED.

THIS IS UNSATISFIED.

THE REALLY CURIOUS NUMBER IS 69% HAD A NEGATIVE VIEW, 69%, OF THE ECONOMY.

NOW, I'M SITTING HERE AND I CAN TELL PEOPLE OF VERMONT THAT THE VERMONT ECONOMY RIGHT NOW MIGHT BE THE BEST IT'S EVER BEEN IN ITS ENTIRE HISTORY.

>> WOW.

THAT'S QUITE A STATEMENT TO MAKE.

>> IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE LEVEL OF WEALTH, ONE OF THE REASONS WHY HOUSING IS SO EXPENSIVE IS BECAUSE THE DEMAND IS SO HIGH.

PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO PAY THESE PRICES TO SOME EXTENT.

PEOPLE ARE LOOKING, PEOPLE CAN'T MOVE AND ALL THAT, THE UNEMPLOYMENT IS SERIOUSLY LOW.

ALMOST TOO LOW.

THE HOUSING OF COURSE IS CREATING A CRUNCH IN THIS WORKFORCE SO THE ECONOMY COULD BE DOING EVEN BETTER IF WE HAD MORE WORKERS AND THAT GETS BACK TO HOUSING.

BUT FOR 69% OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS POLL, SCIENTIFIC POLL, TO SAY THEY ARE UNSATISFIED WITH THE ECONOMY IS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY GIVEN YOU AND I, MARK, HAVE BEEN HERE A LONG TIME, WE CAN RATHER REALLY, REALLY LEAN TIMES.

THE GREAT RECESSION WAS BAD.

THE RECESSION OF THE EARLY '90s WAS MUCH WORSE.

WE CAN GO BACK TO THE '80s, YOU COMPARE PEOPLE ARE COMPARING UNEMPLOYMENT WAS REALLY HIGH.

INTEREST RATES WERE REALLY HIGH.

PEOPLE WERE HAVING A REALLY, REALLY HARD TIME.

THIS IS WHERE THE ELECTED OFFICIALS HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THIS SORT OF THING.

WHY ARE PEOPLE SO NEGATIVE WHEN THINGS ACTUALLY ARE NOT THAT BAD?

JUST BY THE NUMBERS.

>> I WOULD ASK THE TWO OF YOU TO JUMP IN ON THIS.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS DISCONNECT IS COMING FROM?

>> I TH THINKING IS SO CENTRAL O EVERYTHING WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHEN PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THAT'S UNATTAINABLE THAT COULD BE A THING WHERE IT'S REFLECTING IN THE NUMBERS PEOPLE FEEL LIKE SURE I'M MAKING BETTER MONEY AND THE ECONOMY IS GREAT BUT PERSONALLY IF I CAN'T ACHIEVE THE AMERICAN DREAM WHAT GOOD IS THAT?

WAS THAT EARLIER THIS WEEK WHEN THE TAX COMMISSIONER SAID THERE'S A POTENTIAL FOR AN 18% PROPERTY TAX INCREASE?

SO THE LEGISLATURE OF COURSE HAS SAID THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO HAPPEN, BUT PEOPLE SEE THESE EYE-CATCHING NUMBERS, WHEN DO THE TAXES STOP?

WHEN DO THE LITTLE THINGS THAT ADD UP STOP?

I DON'T KNOW THESE BIG MAC RHO ISSUES I THINK LOOK GOOD AND THAT'S TRUE ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL TOO BUT WE SEE THE SAME THING ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL SO I DON'T KNOW THAT THIS IS A VERMONT SPECIFIC THING.

IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S TRICKLING DOWN FROM THE NATIONAL THING.

SARAH, ARE YOU SEEING THAT IN THE LEGISLATURE AND THE STATE HOUSE?

>> GENERALLY SPEAKING WHEN WE QUALIFY THE ECONOMY AS GOOD VERSUS BAD YOU CAN LOOK AT NUMBERS LIKE I THINK UNEMPLOYMENT IS A REALLY INTERESTING NUMBER TO LOOK AT.

THEY ARE INCREDIBLY LOW.

WE HAVE AN INCREDITBLY WORKFORCE.

YOU CAN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE AND THEY WILL TAKE YOU BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED WORKERS DESPERATELY.

IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES OF THE AVERAGE EVERYDAY WORKING VERMONTER, THOUGH, THEY ARE NOT DOING THAT.

THEY ARE NOT JUST GETTING ANOTHER JOB BECAUSE IT WOULD BEHAOFRB THEM PERHAPS -- THEY ARE GOING TO THE GROCERY STORE AND HAVING TO CHECK THEIR BANK -PBGT BALANCE BEFORE THEY SWIPE THEIR DEBIT CARD BECAUSE INFLATION IS AT A POINT WHERE IT'S AT.

CREDIT CARD DEBT IS UP, CAR PAYMENTS ARE INCREDIBLY HIGH.

I HAVE NO IDEA HOW PEOPLE CAN AFFORD $700 A MONTH AT THIS POINT.

ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS EVEN IF THESE MACROECONOMIC QUESTIONS% ARE LOOKING PRETTY GOOD FOR THE STATE AS A WHOLE, FAMILIES ARE TIGHTENING THEIR BELTS I CAN ASSURE YOU.

THAT HURTS FOR PEOPLE.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THIS POLL.

IT'S NOT PEOPLE SAYING THAT THERE'S NOT A DISCONNECT BETWEEN THEM THINKING THAT UNEMPLOYMENT RATES BEING LOW IS A BAD THING, IT'S THAT THAT ISN'T ACTUALLY IMPACTING THEIR PERSONAL LIVES.

>> I WAS WONDERING, SARAH, THE LEGISLATORS, DO THEY UNDERSTAND THAT DISCONNECT?

THEY ARE LOOKING AT THESE INDIVIDUAL THINGS, IT CAN BE CARBON REDUCTION, IT CAN BE EDUCATION, IT CAN BE ANY OF THESE ISSUES THAT THEY SPEND A LOT OF TIME ON, ARE THEY UNDERSTANDING WHERE THIS DISCONNECT, THIS CONCERN IS COMING FROM FROM INDIVIDUALS?

>> THAT DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL LEGISLATOR.

WE ALSO KNOW THAT OUR VERMONT STATE LEGISLATURE IS NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE POPULATION OF VERMONT.

IT SKEWS MORE EDUCATED, IT SKEWS HAVING A HIGHER INCOME THAN THE AVERAGE VERMONTER.

WE CAN CAN HAVE DEBATES ALL DAY OVER THE CAUSE OF THAT AND WHY PEOPLE, NORMAL PEOPLE FIND THEMSELVES UNABLE TO SERVE IN THE LEGISLATURE.

FOR A LOT OF THE LAWMAKERS I DON'T THINK THEY NECESSARILY FEEL THAT SQUEEZE WHEN THEY GO TO THE GROCERY STORE.

MAYBE THEIR MORTGAGES ARE PAID OFF.

MAYBE THEIR CARS ARE PAID OFF.

THEY ARE NOT GOING THROUGH THE SAME THINGS AS MOST PEOPLE.

>> PEOPLE SEE THESE HOUSES BEING BOUT FOR $1 MILLION IN CASH SAYING, THAT IS NOT ME.

>> EVEN THE HOUSES IN WHAT USED TO BE POORER SECTIONS SELLING FOR $350,000.

THERE'S AFFORDABILITY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER.

TIM, WE'RE GOING TO END TONIGHT WE LOST JERRY O'NEILL, WHO WAS NOT ONLY A LEGAL COMMENTATOR BUT REALLY INVOLVED IN SOME SIGNIFICANT CASES IN VERMONT.

>> I THINK HE'S A U.S. ATTORNEY, AND HE'S HE COMMENTED ON THE PALESTINIAN CASE JUST A FEW DAYS BEFORE HE DIED.

>> TALK ABOUT THE CHURCH.

>> HE'S MOST FAMOUS FOR THE CATHOLIC ORPHANAGE CASE REPRESENTING THE ABUSED VICTIMS, PUTTING A LOT OF HIMSELF INTO IT.

THAT WAS VERY CONSISTENT WITH HIS LAW PRACTICE FROM THE BEGINNING AS FAR AS I KNOW.

I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HE AND HIS FAMILY AND THE LAW FIRM ARE VERY PROUD OF.

>> THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.

TIM MCQUISTON, SASHA GOLDSTEIN, SARAH MERE OFF.

THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.

IT'S ANOTHER EDITION OF "VERMONT THIS WEEK."

I'M MARK JOHNSON.

HAVE A GREAT NIGHT.