>> O'Connell: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": I'M SUE O'CONNELL, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

A NEW REPORT FINDS ALMOST NO IMPROVEMENT IN CLOSING BOSTON'S WAGE GAP OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS.

KIM BORMAN, WITH THE BOSTON WOMEN'S WORKFORCE COUNCIL, AND AYANNA POLK FROM MAYOR MICHELLE WU'S OFFICE, JOIN ME ON WHY AND WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

THEN, LATER, "A CHRISTMAS CELTIC SOJOURN" IS BACK ON STAGE THIS YEAR, LIVE, IN-PERSON, AND STREAMING INTO YOUR HOME.

THE SHOW'S CREATOR, BRIAN O'DONOVAN, AND MUSIC CO-DIRECTOR AND HARPIST MAEVE GILCHRIST ARE HERE WITH A PREVIEW AHEAD.

>> I'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME STUDYING AND TALKING ABOUT THE WAGE GAP IN THIS COUNTRY OVER THE YEARS, WITH THE HOPE THAT HIGHLIGHTING THE ISSUES AND TALKING ABOUT FIXES MIGHT BRING US CLOSER TO SOME EQUITY.

BUT AS 2021 COMES TO A CLOSE, HERE I SIT, STILL WAITING BECAUSE OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS WOMEN HAVE GAINED EXACTLY ZERO GROUND, ACCORDING TO A NEW REPORT FROM BOSTON WOMEN'S WORKFORCE COUNCIL.

WE'RE STILL SEEING THE EXACT SAME WAGE GAP BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN THAT WE SAW TWO YEARS AGO, WITH WOMEN EARNING JUST 70 CENTS TO A MAN'S DOLLAR, ON AVERAGE, IN THE GREATER BOSTON AREA.

THAT'S 12 CENTS WORSE THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE, WHERE WOMEN AVERAGE 82 CENTS TO A MAN'S DOLLAR, FOR THOSE KEEPING SCORE.

AND FOR WOMEN OF COLOR IN THIS AREA, THE NUMBERS ARE DOWNRIGHT CRIMINAL, WITH BLACK WOMEN EARNING 49 CENTS AND LATINA WOMEN EARNING 45 CENTS TO THE AVERAGE WHITE MAN'S DOLLAR.

THERE ARE SOME TINY BITS OF GOOD NEWS IN THE REPORT, LIKE THE FACT THAT ASIAN AND NATIVE-AMERICAN WOMEN WERE ABLE TO CLOSE THEIR WAGE GAPS TO BE ON PAR WITH THOSE OF WOMEN OVERALL.

I HATE THE FACT THAT I'M TRYING TO SPIN THAT AS GOOD NEWS, BUT I'M TRYING REALLY HARD TO BE GLASS-HALF-FULL HERE.

SO JOINING ME TO HOPEFULLY HELP ME OUT A LITTLE MORE ARE: KIM BORMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE BOSTON WOMEN'S WORKFORCE COUNCIL, WHICH CONDUCTED THIS SURVEY; AND AYANNA POLK, COMMUNICATIONS AND OUTREACH MANAGER IN BOSTON MAYOR MICHELLE WU'S OFFICE OF WOMEN'S ADVANCEMENT.

>> O'Connell: WELCOME TO BOTH YOU OF YOU THANKS FOR JOINS ME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> O'Connell: KIM, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

BEFORE WE JUMP INTO THE NUMBERS, CAN YOU SET THE TABLE FOR ME?

HOW WAS THIS SURVEY DONE?

HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE ASKED?

WHAT WAS THE TIME PERIOD THAT YOU DID IT ON?

>> SO, THE BOSTON WOMEN'S WORKFORCE COUNCIL HAS COMPACT SIGNERS, AND PART OF THE PLEDGE THAT THESE CONTACT SIGNERS TAKE, OUR EMPLOYERS, THAT THEY WILL GIVE US THEIR PAYROLL WAGE DATA.

AND WE WORK WITH BOSTON UNIVERSITY AND THEIR SOFTWARE DATA SCIENTISTS TO ITEM MISE ITIZE IT.

THEY GIVE US THE SAME INFORMATION THEY GIVE TO THE EEOC, SO IT IS GENDER AND RACE, AND WE ADD JOB CATEGORIES, AND WE ADD COMPENSATION TO IT.

THIS YEAR WE HAD A 14% INCREASE, ACTUALLY, IN THE NUMBER OFEMOS EMPLOYEES WE COVERED, AND IT CAME TO ABOUT 14% OF THE GREATER BOSTON AREA WORKFORCE AREA.

THAT'S HOW WE REALLY GOT TO THE NUMBERS.

AGAIN, WE DO IT EVERY TWO YEARS, SO WE'LL COMPARE THESE TO WHAT WE SAW IN 2019.

>> AIYANA, WERE YOU SURPRISED WHEN YOU SAW THIS REPORT?

WAS THERE ANY NEWS IN THIS FOR YOU?

YOU'RE WORKING ON THIS ISSUE EVERY DAY, TRYING TO CLOSE TO GAP.

WAS THERE ANYTHING SURPRISING IN THIS TO YOU?

>> IT SEEMS TO US, LOOKING AT 2019 TO NOW, WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORLD HAS COMPLETELY CHANGED FOR EVERYONE.

I THINK IN THIS REPORT, COLLECTING THE DATA, TALKING TO CONSTITUENTS AND WORK PLACES, WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO SEE THE INNOVATION THAT MANY PLACES POURED INTO MAKING SURE THAT THEIR EMPLOYEES FEEL SEEN, THAT THEY'RE TAKEN CARE OF, AND FINDING DIFFERENT WAYS TO MEET PEOPLE WHERE THEY'RE AT.

I KNOW THROUGH THIS REPORT WE'VE DEFINITELY SEEN MORE PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THEIR PRACTICES AND HOW THEY DEFINE WORK AND HOW THEY CAN EVOLVE PAST, YOU KNOW, THE EVENTS OF 2020 AND BEYOND.

SO I THINK THE REPORT REALLY SPEAKS TO NOT ONLY, YES, A LOT OF THINGS HAVE STAYED THE SAME, AND THAT IS NOT GREAT, BUT WE'VE ALSO HELD A LINE IN THE SENSE THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO CREATE INNOVATIVE PRACTICES THAT WE DON'T TAKE ANYMORE STEPS BACKWARDS.

>> O'Connell: CAN YOU EXPAND ON THAT?

WHAT INNOVATIVE STEPS ARE WE WORKING TOWARDS THAT 200 YEAR FUTURE WHERE WE FINALLY HAVE EQUITABLE PAY?

>> WE TALKED TO A NUMBER OF WORK PLACES ABOUT THEIR INNOVATIVE PRACTICES, ESPECIALLY HOW THEY HAVE COME TOGETHER AND LISTENED TO THEIR EMPLOYEES THROUGH RESOURCE GROUPS, THROUGH LOOKING AT WAYS TO MAKE SURE CHILD CARE IS FLEXIBLE AND ACCESSIBLE.

YOU KNOW, UNDERSTANDING IF, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE WORKING FROM HOME, HOW CAN WE MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE MAKING THE WORK MANAGEABLE IN ORDER TO CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY CAN STAY AND THEY CAN THRIVE.

>> O'Connell: ONE OF THE THINGS, KIM, THAT I FOUND VERY SNEAKY IN THIS -- THAT DATA, NOT YOUR DATA, IS THE ISSUE OF THE BONUS PAY.

>> UH-HUH.

>> O'Connell: YOU KNOW -- FOR SOME FOLKS WHO MAY NOT BE PAID ON BONUS PAY, I THINK YOU LOOK AT IT AS THIS EQUITABLE WAY OF REALLY REWARDING SOMEONE FOR A METRIC OR A GOAL THAT THEY HIT.

BUT CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU FOUND IN THIS REPORT REGARDING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOW MEN AND WOMEN WERE PAID WITH BONUSES?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE STATISTICS IN THE REPORT IS THAT WOMEN EARN 31 CENTS TO THE DOLLAR ON ANY PERFORMANCE PAY.

MEANING THAT WOMEN DON'T GET VERY MUCH OF IT.

AND MOST OF THAT IS BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT IN POSITIONS WHERE THEY'RE ACTUALLY ENTITLED TO IT.

BUT THE OTHER PART TO THIS IS THAT IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE BONUS PAY, ESPECIALLY IN THE EXECUTIVE AREA, AND THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT WOMEN AND MEN GET, BONUS PAY CAN BE VERY SUBJECTIVE.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE INTERVENTIONS THAT WE'RE DISCUSSING, IS THAT IT SHOULD NOT BE.

IT SHOULD BECOME MUCH MORE -- THE SUCCESS CRITERIA SHOULD BE VERY OBJECTIVE.

THERE SHOULD BE A DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING THOSE DECISIONS, SO THAT THIS EXTRA CASH IS NOT JUST DOLED OUT TO YOUR FRIENDS OR PEOPLE THAT YOU LOOK LIKE.

SO, YOU'RE RIGHT.

IT WAS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

IT WENT FROM 30 CENTS UP TO 35 CENTS, SO... >> O'Connell: GO AHEAD.

>> ONE THING I DID WANT TO SAY, TOO, IF THERE IS A SILVER LINING AT ALL TO THE FACT THAT THIS HASN'T CHANGED, THE 30 CENTS, LABOR ECONOMISTS HAVE SAID WE WOULD SEE A SEVERE NARROWING OF THE GAP BECAUSE WE HAD LOST SO MANY PEOPLE AT THE LOWER END OF THE SCALE, SO MANY WOMEN, AT THE LOWER END OF THE PAY SCALE, IT WOULD MAKE THE AVERAGE GO UP.

WE ACTUALLY DID NOT SEE THAT IN BOSTON.

AND THAT GOES TO PROBABLY WHAT ELSE WE TALKED ABOUT, WHICH WAS THIS 12% INCREASE OVERALL OF SALARIES.

EMPLOYERS -- AT LEAST OUR EMPLOYERS -- ARE TRYING VERY, VERY HARD TO KEEP THEIR WORKFORCES INTACT, TO SUPPORT THEM AS BEST THEY COULD.

WE'RE NOT SHOW SURE THEY GAVE THEM PROMOTIONS THIS YEAR, BUT THEY WERE TRYING TO KEEP THEM THERE.

>> O'Connell: THERE WAS A POINT THAT REALLY STUCK OUT TO US HERE, THAT 12% -- THAT THE AVERAGE WAGES IN THIS DATA SET WERE UP 12% FOR BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.

BUT INTERESTINGLY, SHOWING HOW SOLID THE DATA IS, THE GAP STILL EXISTED.

SO EVEN THOUGH WOMEN MADE 12% MORE, MEN MADE 12% MORE, AND THERE STILL WAS THAT GAP IN BETWEEN WHAT MEN AND WOMEN WERE EARNING.

AIYANA, HOW DO WE CONTINUE -- AFTER THIS YEAR -- WE'RE STILL IN THE PANDEMIC.

I'M NOT ONE OF THESE PEOPLE WHO IS GOING TO SAY WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE, BECAUSE I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE WE ARE, SADLY, IN THIS PANDEMIC.

WOMEN DROPPING OUT OF THE WORKFORCE IN RECORD NUMBERS, WOMEN SHOULDERING THE BURDEN OF TAKING CARE OF CHILDREN, TAKING CARE OF PARENTS, ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN EXPANDED DUE TO COVID.

WHAT STEPS CAN A CITY GOVERNMENT, OR THE GOVERNMENT, TAKE IN GENERAL TO TRY TO HELP WOMEN GET BACK TO WHERE THEY WANT TO BE, IF THEY WANT TO BE IN THE WORKFORCE AND CLOSE THIS GAP?

>> AND THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION.

I THINK COLLECTING THIS DATA AND CONTINUING THIS, AND BEING IN COMMUNICATION WITH A NUMBER OF THESE WORK PLACES IS THE FIRST STEP.

FROM THERE, WHAT WE DO AS THE PUBLIC PARTNER AROUND OUR WAGE-GAP REPORT, WE REALLY ATTACK ACCOUNT AND SEE HOW WE CAN LET HIS INFORM WHAT WE NEED TO DO IN ORDER TO EMPOWER, IN THIS CONVERSATION, PARTICULARLY BOSTON'S WOMEN.

WE'VE REALLY TAKEN ECONOMIC EQUITY AS SOMETHING THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO US, OUTSIDE OF LOOKING AT HOW WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WOMEN ARE, YOU KNOW, SEEN AND HEARD IN THE WORKPLACE.

WE MAKE SURE THAT AS INDIVIDUALS THEY KNOW HOW TO ADVOCATE FOR HIGHER SALARIES.

WE LOOK AT WOMEN ENTREPRENEURS, AND HOW WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT WOMEN-CERTIFIED-OWNED BUSINESSES AND MINORITY CERTIFICATIONS ARE GETTING THE RESOURCES THAT THEY NEED BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND HISTORICALLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY THAT THE CITY NEEDS TO, YOU KNOW, BE THERE FOR ITS CONSTITUENTS.

I KNOW AT LEAST IN OUR OFFICE, WE'RE WORKING CLOSELY WITH WOMEN, ENTREPRENEURS, THROUGHOUT THE COMMUNITY, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE HIT BY COVID.

THINKING ABOUT THOSE IN-PERSON INDUSTRIES, SUCH AS FOOD AND HOSPITALITY, AND WE'RE REALLY SEEING THOSE THINGS PLAY OUT.

ON TOP OF THAT, YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT CHILD CARE AS AN ECONOMIC EQUITY ISSUE.

AS WE BROUGHT THAT UP BEFORE, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO US, BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND FOR A LOT OF FAMILIES WE HAVE A LOT OF WOMEN WHO ARE HEAD OF HOUSEHOLD.

AND WITH THAT, YOU'RE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, MAKING SURE THAT THE CARE RESPONSIBILITIES ARE TAKEN CARE OF.

IN, LIKE YOU SAID, THE LENS OF THE PANDEMIC.

WE HAVE DONE A LOT TO LOOK AT NOT ONLY HOW TO CREATE FLEXIBLE AND HIGH-QUALITY CHILD CARE OPTIONS THROUGHOUT THE CITY, BUT TO SUPPORT CHILD CARE PROVIDERS BECAUSE IN THAT INDUSTRY YOU SEE IT IS LARGELY WOMEN, LARGELY WOMEN OF COLOR.

SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE REACHING AS MANY CONSTITUENTS AS POSSIBLE SO THEY FEEL EMPOWERED IN THEIR NEXT STEPS AS THIS CITY GOES THROUGH THE PROCESS OF COVID, SINCE IT IS NOT OVER.

>> O'Connell: KIM, I'M A BIG FAN OF, YOU CAN'T FIX IT UNLESS YOU COUNT IT.

I WONDER IF YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE FOR WOMEN AND MEN AND EMPLOYERS ABOUT HOW THEY CAN HELP THEIR OWN COMPANIES CHANGE THIS GAP?

I ONCE ASKED AN EMPLOYER IF THEY EVER DID AN ANONYMOUS PAY SPREAD SHEET JUST TO SEE HOW PEOPLE IN THE SAME CATEGORIES OF WORK WERE BEING PAID, AND THEN PUT THE GENDER NEXT TO IT TO SEE WHERE THE INEQUITIES WERE, AND WHEN THEY DID THAT, THEY WERE SHOCKED THAT ON ALMOST EVERY SPOT THEY WERE PAYING THE MAN MORE, EVEN IF IT WAS JUST A SMALL AMOUNT, IT WAS STILL MORE.

ARE THERE THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO TO, YOU KNOW, SHORT OF GOING ON STRIKE AND DEMANDING, BUT TO HELP GIVE EMPLOYERS TOOLS TO TRY TO CLOSE THIS GAP ON THEIR OWN?

>> WELL, WE ARE PROVING A PRODUCING A TOOL.

IT IS CALLED A WAGE GAP CALCULATOR, AND WE'RE PRODUCING IT WITH THE MAYOR'S OFFICE AND THE HELP OF AIYANA TO HELP US DO THIS.

IT IS NOT TOUGH MATH, JUST DIFFERENT MATH.

ANY TIME AN EMPLOYER TALKS ABOUT PAY EQUITY, IT LOOKS HORIZONTALLY.

EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK HAS BEEN A LAW SINCE 1963, SO WE KIND OF HOPE THEY'RE DOING THAT ALREADY, BUT THEY'RE NOT ALWAYS DOING THAT SO IT IS IMPORTANT TO SEE.

WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT -- AND THE CALCULATIONS ARE ON OUR WEBSITE -- AND, AGAIN, WE SHOULD HAVE A TOOL IN THE FIRST QUARTER THAT HELPS EMPLOYERS DO THIS -- WE'RE ASKING YOU TO DO SIMPLE MATH.

HOW MANY MEN DO YOU HAVE AT YOUR COMPANY?

AND HOW MANY WOMEN DO YOU HAVE AT YOUR COMPANY?

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE AVERAGE COMPENSATION FOR THE MAN AND THE AVERAGE COMPENSATION FOR THE WOMEN?

IT IS A RAW GENDER GAP THAT JUST SHOWS A RELATIONSHIP.

AND WHEN PEOPLE SEE THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME, THEIR EYES ARE JUST WOW.

IT DOESN'T TELL YOU EXACTLY WHY YOU HAVE A PROBLEM, BUT IT BEGINS TO GIVE YOU DIRECTION AS TO WHERE YOU GO FROM THERE.

JUST LIKE YOU SAID, IT IS THE BEGINNING OF SEEING THE IND INDICATORS, AND SO THAT IS WHAT WE'RE SAYING, DO THE MATH, YOU HAVE TO DO THE MATH.

>> O'Connell: AIYANA, I WANT TO CIRCLE BACK AND TALK ABOUT CHILD CARE.

I THINK PEOPLE DON'T GET HOW ESSENTIAL HAVING RELIABLE CHILD CARE IS FOR WOMEN IN BUSINESS, ON EVERY SINGLE LEVEL OF BUSINESS.

I WAS AT A LAUNCH OF COMPANY THAT WAS INVESTING IN WOMEN BUSINESS PEOPLE, AND EVERY SINGLE WOMAN WHO GOT UP TO SPEAK ABOUT LAUNCHING THEIR COMPANY TALKED ABOUT THE DIFFICULTIES OF GETTING CHILD CARE IN LAUNCHING THEIR COMPANY.

I HAVE BEEN TO A MILLION EVENTS WITH A MAN, AND NEVER HAVE I HEARD A MAN SAID, I WAS TRYING TO LAUNCH THE COMPANY AND I ATE A LOT OF RAHMAN NOODLES -- THAT NEVER CAME UP.

GETTING RELIABLE CHILD CARE, WHETHER IT IS FROM THE GOVERNMENT OR PRIVATE SOURCES THAT ARE AFFORDABLE, DOES THE GOVERNMENT UNDERSTAND HOW ESSENTIAL IT IS TO OUR SUCCESS, BOTH FOR MEN AND WOMEN?

ARE WE CLOSE TO THAT?

>> I THINK THAT CONVERSATION IS BECOMING MORE PRESENT.

ESPECIALLY WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW, IN THE SPACE OF REDEFINING WORK.

WE'RE UNDERSTANDING THAT, YOU KNOW, MORE PARENTS, CARE-GIVERS, ARE SHARING THAT SPACE WITH THEIR LITTLE ONES.

SO NOW WE'VE DEFINITELY SEEN MORE FOLKS RALLY AROUND THIS CONVERSATION AROUND CHILD CARE AND HOW IMPORTANT IT IS.

AND WE'VE SEEN, ESPECIALLY IN OUR CONVERSATIONS, MORE MEN HAVE STEPPED UP, AND ASKED MORE QUESTIONS, NOW THAT MORE PEOPLE ARE SHARING SPACE, WHAT THAT RESPONSIBILITY LOOKS LIKE.

AND I THINK THROUGH OUR OFFICE AND THE WORK THAT WE'VE DONE, WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO ENGAGE THE CITY THROUGH OUR ANNUAL CITY CENSUS SURVEY THAT WE SHARE THROUGHOUT THE CITY OF BOSTON, TO REALLY GET THAT FIRSTHAND INFORMATION FROM, YOU KNOW, FROM ALL CARE-GIVERS, TO UNDERSTAND THE CLIMATE OF WHERE THINGS ARE AND HOW THEY FEEL, WHAT THEIR PAINS ARE, SO THAT CAN INFORM OUR STEPS GOING FORWARD.

SO I WILL SAY THAT, UM, IT IS ON THE FRONT OF A LOT OF PEOPLE'S MINDS, EVEN FOLKS WHO DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN.

BECAUSE WORKING WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE CHILDREN, THAT IMPACTS THE ENGINE OF ANY WORKPLACE.

SO I KNOW THAT IS DEFINITELY MORE PROMINENT WHEN PEOPLE ARE HAVING DISCUSSIONS ABOUT WORK AND CHILD CARE HAS STARTED TO RISE TO THE TOP OF THAT CONVERSATION.

SO I AM HAPPY TO SEE THAT.

>> O'Connell: I WANT TO ASK YOU, KIM, AS WE WRAP UP, PEOPLE ARE GETTING PAID A LOT MORE MONEY, SOME PEOPLE FOR DOING THE SAME JOB, SO THEY'VE STAY.

SOME PLACES ARE OFFERING GENEROUS TIME OFF FOR BERIEVEMENT OF A PET FOR TWO WEEKS.

I HAVE A YOUNG ADULT WHO I KNOW JUST GOT PAID AN EXTRAORDINARY AMOUNT OF MONEY TO GO WORK AT A COMPANY, EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT EVEN DONE WITH COLLEGE YET.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE ALL OF THESE CHALLENGES AND THESE ECONOMIC HARDSHIPS.

BUT ARE YOU -- HOW WOULD YOU CLASSIFY YOUR FORECAST AS WE MOVE FORWARD, WITH ALL OF THIS CHAOS WHICH COULD GROW SOME GOOD STUFF.

ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC?

CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC?

HOPEFUL?

HOW WOULD YOU CLASSIFY YOURSELF?

>> I'M ACTUALLY VERY OPTIMISTIC.

I BELIEVE THAT THE LIGHT THAT HAS BEEN SHINED ON THIS -- LET'S FACE IT, THESE ISSUES HAVE BEEN HERE FOR YEARS, AND NOW WE'RE STARTING TO TALK ABOUT THEM AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT THEM AND TRY TO.

AND THE MORE I HEAR THAT WE'RE NOT GOING BACK TO BUSINESS AS USUAL, AND I WAS JUST IN A PRESENTATION PRIOR TO THIS WHERE THERE WERE H.R.

EXECUTIVES SAYING, NOPE, THE C.E.O.

SAYS WE'RE REALLY GOING TO CHANGE THIS TIME.

SO I'M HOPEFUL.

I'M HOPEFUL THAT WE ARE GOING TO -- IT IS REALLY THE LESSONS THAT WE LEARN DURING THE PANDEMIC SEEM LIKE THEY'RE GOING TO BE PUT IN PLACE.

>> O'Connell: FROM YOUR LIPS TO EVERY BUSINESS LEADER'S EARS.

THANKTHANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

HAVE A GREAT HOLIDAY SEASON.

I APPRECIATE YOUR EXPERTISE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> O'Connell: IF YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THE FULL WAGE GAP REPORT FROM THE BOSTON WOMEN'S WORKFORCE COUNCIL, VISIT www.thebwwc.org.

NEXT UP, HOLIDAY FAVORITE "A CHRISTMAS CELTIC SOJOURN" IS BACK FOR ITS 19th YEAR NEXT WEEK.

DRAWING ON CELTIC, PAGAN, AND CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS, THE SHOW FEATURES LIVELY DANCING SET TO THE MUSIC OF FIDDLES, BASS, ACCORDION, AND HARP, AMONG OTHER INSTRUMENTS.

♪♪ PERFORMANCES BEGIN NEXT WEEK IN ROCKPORT BEFORE A FIVE-SHOW RUN IN BOSTON, WITH VIRTUAL PERFORMANCES FOR AUDIENCE AT HOME, AS WELL.

HERE TO GIVE US A PREVIEW IS MAEVE GILCHRIST, THE HARPIST YOU JUST SAW, WHO RETURNS THIS YEAR AS CO-MUSIC DIRECTOR; AND BRIAN O'DONOVAN, THE SHOW'S CREATOR AND LONGTIME HOST OF THE WEEKLY RADIO PROGRAM BEHIND IT, "A CELTIC SOJOURN," PRODUCED HERE AT GBH.

>> O'Connell: WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> O'Connell: BRIAN, FIRST OF ALL, CONGRATULATIONS ON GETTING BACK INTO THE THEATER.

TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOU DID LAST YEAR, AND WHAT YOU'RE PLANNING ON DOING THIS YEAR?

>> WELL, LAST YEAR IT WAS PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT LAST YEAR BECAUSE, OF COURSE, NONE OF US COULD DO ANYTHING.

WE COULDN'T GET TO THE THEATER; WE COULDN'T GATHER.

WHAT WE DECIDED TO DO WITH THE MUSICIANS AND THE STAFF IS TO PUT TOGETHER SOMETHING REALLY SPECIAL FOR FOLKS WHO YOU GOING TO BE TRAPPED AT HOME, ESSENTIALLY.

SO WE SET OUT TO CREATE A VIRTUAL, WHICH WAS COMPLICATED, YES, BECAUSE IT MEANT WE HAD TO QUARANTINE ALL TOGETHER UP IN ROCKPORT, MASSACHUSETTS, AND WE DID SO.

IT TURNED OUT TO BE A REALLY BLISSFUL TIME.

I THINK MAEVE WILL AGREE BECAUSE IT WAS AT THE DARKEST TIME OF THE PANDEMIC.

WE COULDN'T MEET ANYBODY ELSE.

MY OWN WIFE COULDN'T EVEN SAY HI CLOSE TO US, OTHER THAN BEING ON THE PORCH WHERE SHE DROPPED OFF SOME FOOD.

IT WAS A SINGULAR EXPERIENCE.

AND OUR FRIENDS IN ROCKPORT MUSIC, WHO GAVE US THE BEAUTIFUL THEATER THERE, COMPLETELY FREE OF ANYBODY ELSE GOING IN AND OUT SO WE COULD REMAIN PRISTINE AND QUARANTINED.

AND WE PRODUCED SOMETHING WE WERE VERY, VERY PROUD OF AND SURPRISED US IN TERMS OF ITS IMPACT.

>> O'Connell: AND THIS YEAR, MAEVE, YOU'RE OUT AND ABOUT DOING SHOWS, AND FOLLOWING PROTOCOLS ALL ALONG THE WAY.

THIS MUSIC IS PERFECT TO CAPTURE THE JOYS AND SORROWS OF THIS TIME OF YEAR.

TALK ABOUT YOUR SELECTIONS.

HOW DID YOU PUT THIS SHOW TOGETHER?

>> WELL, YOU'RE RIGHT, THAT IT IS SO JOYFUL TO BE HERE.

IT WAS GREAT TO DO IT LAST YEAR REMOTELY.

IT WAS KIND OF A TEMPORARY TIME.

BUT THIS SHOW IS REALLY ABOUT BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

BRINGING MUSICIANS COMING FROM A SHARED TRADITION TOGETHER, AND BRINGING THE AUDIENCE IN IN TO MEET WITH THE MUSICIANS.

IT IS ABOUT THEIR SHARED EXPERIENCE OF POETRY AND EMOTION, MUSIC, SONG, AND DANCE, AND THE COMING TOGETHER OF PEOPLE FROM ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS.

AND SO WE'RE BRINGING TOGETHER A HOST OF FANTASTIC MUSICIANS.

AND I JUST SAW JEN MOYNIHAN THERE ON THE FIDDLE, AND KATIE McNALLY FROM THE BOSTON FIT DELS TRADITION, FIDDLES TRADITIONS.

WE'VE GOT MIRUS MILEY ON QUARTET, AND BRINGING THEIR VERY UNIQUE BLEND OF HARM HARMONY, IT WILL BE FANTASTIC.

>> O'Connell: BRIAN, I KNOW THIS HAS BEEN A TERRIBLE TIME, BUT THERE ARE ALWAYS WAYS TO FIND GIFTS.

THE EXPANDED AUDIENCE YOU'RE ABLE TO REACH, WHICH STARTED LAST YEAR WITH THE VIRTUAL CONCERTS AND EXPANDING INTO THIS YEAR, IT MUST BE EXCITING TO REACH FOLKS WHO MAYBE OTHERWISE WOULDN'T HAVE GONE OR ARE GETTING TO KNOW YOU AND YOUR KELTIC SHOWS.

>> MY MOTHER WAS SAYING IT IS AN ILL WIND, INDEED, THAT BLOWS NO GOOD.

THE PANDEMIC FORCED US TO DO SOMETHING WE WOULDN'T HAVE DONE OTHERWISE, AND THAT'S TO CREATE THIS VIRTUAL OPTION.

WE THINK IT IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT WILL BE AN OPTION GOING FORWARD.

AND THIS YEAR WE'RE DOING IT FROM THE THEATER.

REALLY RECORDING IN HIGH QUALITY THE PROCEEDINGS ON THE STAGE.

LET'S BE REALISTIC ABOUT IT: WE THOUGHT WE ALL WOULD BE MUCH MORE RELAXED ABOUT GOING TO INDOOR SPACES AND THEATER SPACES, AND THAT SIMPLY IS NOT THE CASE.

EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE VAX REQUIREMENTS AND MASK MANDATES, THERE ARE SOME WHO WILL STILL BE MORE COMFORTABLE CHECKING IN WITH US FROM THE SAFETY OF THEIR OWN HOME, AND WE'RE FACILITATING THAT THIS YEAR AND LOOKING FORWARD TO CONTINUING TO BUILD ON THAT AUDIENCE.

SOME 6700 HOUSEHOLDS JOINED US LAST YEAR FOUR OR VIRTUAL PROGRAM, AND WE THINK IT WILL EVEN GO UP FROM THAT THIS YEAR.

>> O'Connell: MAEVE, TALK ABOUT BEING AN ARTIST AND A PERFORMER IN THIS PERIOD.

IT MUST BE DIFFICULT TO KEEP THE CREATIVE JUICES FLOWING, TO WORK TOGETHER.

HOW ARE YOU DOING IT?

WHAT IS YOUR SECRET SAUCE FOR STAYING POSITIVE AND STAYING CREATIVE?

>> THE SECRET SAUCE?

I THINK LOVE OF WHAT I DO.

IT IS SUSTENANCE, TO ME, IN THE HARD TIMES.

THIS YEAR FEELS A LITTLE DIFFERENT TO LAST YEAR.

LAST YEAR, AS AN ARTIST, MORE THAN ANYTHING IT WAS LONELY BECAUSE WE WEREN'T ABLE TO HAVE THAT CONSTANT CONVERSATION WITH OTHER ARTISTS.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHY WE DO THIS THING.

THIS YEAR IT IS KIND OF SLOWLY BUT STEADILY AMPING UP AGAIN WITH ALL OF THESE PROTOCOLS IN PLACE.

SO ON THE ONE HAND, IT IS NEVER EASY.

YOU NEVER KNOW HOW IT IS GOING TO GO EXACTLY, BUT IT IS INCREDIBLE HOW ELASTIC WE ARE, AS AN ARTISTIC COMMUNITY, HAVE BEEN.

I THINK THAT ELAST ELASTICITY EXTENDS ITSELF, SO THE MUSIC WILL BE DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER TIME.

>> O'Connell: AND, BRIAN, IT RISES TO THE OCCASION.

IT MUST BE SO REWARDING TO BE ABLE TO DELIVER IT.

>> IT REALLY IS.

WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT TO THE ARTISTS IS ACTUALLY AN EXTRAORDINARY REVERSAL OF WHAT IT WAS BACK IN MARCH OF 2019, WHERE ARTISTS AND ALL OF US INVOLVED IN THEATER SAID IT WAS OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO GO HOME AND TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE AND TO GO DARK, ESSENTIALLY.

THE BUILDINGS AND THE ARTISTIC EFFORTS THAT WERE FOCUSED AROUND LIVE MUSIC.

THIS TIME WHEN I CALLED THE ARTISTS TO PARTICIPATE, EVERYBODY FEELS A RESPONSIBILITY TO COME BACK IN AS SAFE AN ENVIRONMENT AS POSSIBLE.

BELIEVE ME, I WOULD BE LYING IF I TOLD YOU IT ISN'T MORE DIFFICULT THIS YEAR THAN ANY OTHER YEAR ANY OF US HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN ANYTHING.

IN SOME WAYS IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR US TO BE AT HOME.

HOWEVER, IT IS OR RESPONSIBILITY AS ARTISTS TO BRING A SENSE OF OUR HUMANITY BACK TO REALTIME, AND TO DO IT AS SAFELY AS POSSIBLE.

BUT NONETHELESS, TO REMIND PEOPLE OF THE HUMANITY THAT SOMEHOW WE WERE CHALLENGED TO REMEMBER DURING THE DARKEST TIMES OF THE PANDEMIC.

>> O'Connell: YOU DO THAT SO WELL.

IERNTI APPRECIATE YOU BOTH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

I LOOK FORWARD TO WATCHING YOU.

I'LL BE WATCHING FROM THE COUCH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> O'Connell: UNFORTUNATELY, "A CHRISTMAS CELTIC SOJOURN'S" ROCKPORT SHOW IS ALREADY SOLD OUT ON THE 14th, BUT THERE ARE FIVE SHOWS AT THE CUTLER MAJESTIC THEATER IN BOSTON, DECEMBER 17-19, AS WELL, AND YOU CAN CATCH A VIRTUAL STREAM OF THE BOSTON CONCERTS FROM DECEMBER 18-26.

FOR SHOW TIMES AND TICKETS, VISIT www.christmasCeltic.com.

ADAM REILLY IS "TALKING POLITICS" ALONG WITH GBH'S CALLIE CROSSLEY AND PHILLIP MARTIN.

THE TRIO WILL WEIGH WHAT SUFFOLK D.A.

RACHAEL ROLLINS' CONFIRMATION TO THE U.S. ATTORNEY ROLE FOR MASSACHUSETTS MEANS FOR THE STATE, WHO MAY BE IN LINE TO REPLACE HER IN HER CURRENT ROLE, AND DIANNE WILKERSON, WEIGHING A RETURN TO POLITICS.

PLUS, THE HEADS OF THE MASSACHUSETTS ALLIANCE OF COLLEGE REPUBLICANS AND THE COLLEGE OF DEMOCRATS OF MASSACHUSETTS ON THEIR REACTION TO A NEW REPORT FINDING MOST OF THE YOUNGEST VOTERS BELIEVE DEMOCRACY IN THIS COUNTRY IS IN SERIOUS DANGER OR HAS ALREADY FAILED, AND MANY EVEN FEAR CIVIL WAR.

YIKES.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org GB TEST >> FRIDAYS AT 7:00, WE'RE DIVING DEEP INTO THE LOCAL POLITICAL STORIES THAT AFFECT YOU AND THE WORLD YOU LIVE IN.

FROM THE GOVERNOR'S RACE TO BOSTON'S NEW MAYOR, AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN.

WE'LL BE TALKING POLITICS EVERY FRIDAY AT 7:00, RIGHT HERE ON GBH 2.

>> HEY, FOLKS, EDWARD B. HERWICK III, FROM THE CURIOSITY DESK, WHAT EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IT.

OKAY, EVERYBODY IS NOT TALKING ABOUT IT YET.

HERE IS WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW; IT ALL STARTS WITH YOU, CURIOSITY SEEKERS WHO MEET EACH DAY FULL OF QUESTIONS AND READY TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW.

AND THERE IS ME, EDWARD B. HERWICK III, PROFESSIONAL QUESTION ASKER, FORMER DISTANCE THIRD PLACE WINNER ON AN EPISODE OF JEOPARDY.

AND EXPERTS, FROM AUTHORS TO AFTER ASTROPHYSICISTS.

WE ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS AND TAKE YOU TO PLACES YOU DIDN'T KNOW YOU WANTED TO GO, DIVE DEEPER INTO THE NEWS, AND SOLVE SOME OF THOSE MYSTERIES HIDING IN PLAIN SIGHT.

WHEN?

EVERY WEEK.

A NEW EPISODE LOVINGLY CRAFTED BY OUR TEAM.

IN A WORLD WHERE SO MANY ANSWERS ARE JUST A CLICK AWAY, THERE ARE STILL THINGS THE INTERNET CANNOT TELL US.

MYSTERIES BIG AND SMALL JUST WAITING TO BE SOLVED, AND SURPRISES GALORE WHEN WE DARE TO SIMPLY ASK QUESTIONS.

THAT'S THE CURIOSITY DESK.

LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU ARE CURIOUS ABOUT BECAUSE, HEY, I MIGHT JUST LOOK INTO IT FOR YOU.

I'M EDWARD B. HERWICK III, STAY CURIOUS OUT THERE.

♪♪