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[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi, I'm Steve Adubato, welcome to a very important and compelling program.

Two separate half hours.

In this half hour, we're gonna be interviewing with the 56th Governor, 56th Governor?

- You got it.

- 50- the 56th Governor of the great state of New Jersey, the Garden State, Governor Phil Murphy.

And in the second half hour, you'll see separately, the Governor's Republican opponent, Jack Ciattarelli.

We might as well call this program, Governor on the issues, not the politics, but the issues; you okay with that?

- I'm great, good to be with you.

- Great to be with you, and by the way, we remind everyone of the election for Governor, is in fact, on November the 2nd, and make sure you learn about the issues, the candidates, and you vote.

Governor, let's start with the most pressing issue of our time on many levels, so many aspects to COVID-19.

What has been the biggest lesson you have learned, to date, as we tape this program on the 23rd of September?

19 months, and the biggest lesson about leadership, and frankly, about being Governor.

- Yeah, again, it's good to be with you.

And the loss in New Jersey has been overwhelming, over 27,000 losses of life.

An awful first wave, a tough second wave.

We're still in the fight, as we sit here.

It's not as bad as it was by a long shot, but it's not as good as it was a few months ago.

I wouldn't trade our hand with any other American state, as I sit here, in terms of the level of vaccination, we're among the most vaccinated.

We've got the smallest number of ICU beds occupied by COVID patients of any state in America.

Those are good facts, as tough as it still is.

I think the biggest lesson of leadership, Steve, is to get a balance right.

And I've said this before, but Churchill, early World War II.

When the Germans had overrun the continent, and the Americans were not yet in the war.

If I could channel a fingernail of Churchill, it would be balancing, telling folks the absolute truth, even if that truth really hurts, make sure that they understand the facts.

But at the same time, giving them a realistic path forward of hope, of optimism.

If we do X and Y together, this is the path that will get us out of this, this really dark spot, in this dark moment.

And that, to me, is that balance has got to be there.

You've got to give people hope, but you gotta tell 'em the truth, even if it hurts.

- In that spirit, Governor, I asked you this about, I think it was six or seven months into the pandemic, and I want to return to it.

Because you know more, now, we know more now, but the decision to send patients, who were in nursing homes, got COVID, were in hospitals, back into those nursing homes, approximately 8,000 people, a little fewer than that, but every life matters.

8,000 people who went back into those nursing homes, died.

Question: do you regret, in any way, the decision to send those patients back into nursing homes, without the nursing home's- 'cause you told me last time, the nursing homes needed to do certain things, they may not have done them.

Do you regret that, A, and B, what do you take from that horrific experience?

Mostly for those families?

- Yeah, I mean, the loss, the pandemic in general, but the- within the pandemic, the tragic loss early on, especially in long-term care, was the tragedy within the tragedy.

I have to roll the tape back, though, Steve, so forgive me for- challenging a little bit of the premise of the question, a couple of things.

Number one, they're not patients, remember, this is their home, they're residents of these places.

And we have to remember that they were returning home.

Secondly, we were crystal clear, in my own voice, in the executive orders from myself, and/or Judy Persichilli, about the protocols for anybody returning to their residents, who had been positive for COVID.

They must be separated by floor, wing, or better yet, building.

And the staff that served them had also needed to be separated.

So you did not mix populations.

We also said- and by the way, if you can't do what we've just asked you to do, call us, and we'll help you do that, in some other residence, until this thing passes.

By the way, very few folks ended up calling us.

Did operators behave badly?

Potentially, yes.

And they will be dealt with- or they have been dealt with.

But our instructions and parameters were crystal clear.

- So I just want to be clear before we leave this, the Department of Health has jurisdiction over Judy Persichilli, the Commissioner of Health, who's joined us many times.

They had jurisdiction and regulatory authority over those nursing homes, correct?

- Well, there's a number of different elements of government.

You've got- Human Services plays a role, the Attorney General, which has investigated, plays a role.

The Department of Health, in fact, is- fined a number of operators, but it's a combo- it's a number of different areas in the government.

- I just want to understand this.

Are you saying that you and your administration took the nursing homes at their word, that they were gonna separate people, and do what they needed to do?

Because clearly it didn't happen, to the degree it should've, because New York and New Jersey had the highest number of people die in nursing homes during the particularly early months of COVID.

- Yeah, we- by the way, that ultimately happened almost everywhere, Steve, sadly.

It was not, at the end of the day, it wasn't just New Jersey and New York.

The way that you deal with it, in this industry, which is the normal process, you make them attest, your request an attestation, that they affirmatively understand the rules of the road, and commit to abiding by them.

And that's the basis upon- which now, are there spot inspections?

You betcha, but that's the base of state, they agree, affirmatively, that they understand your executive orders, and that they commit to abiding by them.

- You know, Governor, as we do this program, there are commercials out there.

And again, we refer you to public broadcasting and other respectable sources to find the accurate information that you need to know to vote on November the 2nd.

So commercials are what they are, but some of the commercials out there, that your opponent, Jack Ciatterelli is putting out there, one of them that really is interesting, quotes you in saying- I'm not sure what the context was, Governor, but if I have this wrong, you'll tell me, you've never been shy about that.

He keeps saying this over and over again, that you said, and there was a spot, and he was saying, that is, "If you are a one-issue voter," that issue is taxes, "we are probably not the state for you."

What does that mean?

Because his interpretation of it is that you don't care about the taxes people pay.

- Yeah, which obviously is not the case.

And that was taken out of context.

I will say this, if you're a one-issue voter, and your issue is taxes, I can tell you right now, he's not your guy, unless you're a billionaire, or the CEO of a big corporation.

The point is this: we inherited an affordability crisis of the state, among other crises.

And from moment one, we have been chopping away at that.

And we have had a laser-focus, especially, overwhelmingly, on the middle class, and those who dream as I did, in my family, growing up, to look up, and want to someday get in the middle class.

So when we talk about affordability, whether it's income taxes, property taxes, healthcare, how much college costs, how much access to childcare.

That's what we have been attacking from moment one.

And I would say, by the way- and this is also a fact, my opponent has said that he supports President Trump's policies.

President Trump is the one, in his party, who pushed through the cap of the state local-tax deduction, which is the biggest tax increase on middle-class families in the history of our state.

- A $10,000 Cap.

- You betcha.

- What has that done, Governor, to the state of New Jersey, particularly homeowners?

- I think its impact, Steve, has been masked by the pandemic.

Now, first we saw the census results, and all these folks who said there are moving vans up and down the state, and people are leaving.

Guess what?

It turns out some of those moving mans were bringing people in, and our population grew substantially.

Secondly, since the pandemic, even moreso, as you know, when you and I have talked about it, you've had an out migration from that vertical urban living and working reality, into- going to suburbs, and New Jersey has been a big winner in that respect.

So I think those trends, or that trend, in particular, has masked- they've hurt, the middle-class homeowners, particularly our seniors.

You know, somebody- even someone said at one point, not that long ago, that the SALT cap, lifting the SALT cap would- it would help wealthy homeowners only.

My answer was, "That person who said that hasn't been in New Jersey."

This is overwhelmingly a middle-class homeowner, especially, senior middle-class homeowner tax increase.

And again, it was brought by President Trump, supported by my opponent.

It's crystal clear, we gotta undo that.

I'm gonna fight to get that cap lifted if it kills me, which it might.

- And yeah, I've heard you say that before, Governor, and you know, what's interesting, state and local deductions, state, and local taxes, SALT, that's what it stands for, I just want to be clear.

And by the way, we had- Governor, we asked people, "What would be the one question you would wanna ask the Governor and his opponent?"

And hundreds and hundreds of people- I wanna thank all of our media partners for gathering these.

But Governor, one question that came in, and there was so many people who asked, in different forms, and we're gonna ask you about this.

When it comes to education, and the mandates- public school education, the mandate for teachers, as we speak on the 23rd of September, to be either vaccinated, or to be tested on, define that "regular basis," Governor.

- Probably somewhere between one to three times a week, depending on which district you're in, and what the public health reality looks like in that district.

- So for the parents who are frustrated, me included, and again, there's no one to blame, the pandemic is what it is.

What is the message you want to share with parents who are so uncertain, because the schools are uncertain, because the virus is uncertain, as to whether our kids are in, out, they have to be masked.

They're not exactly sure who's vaccinated because people- teachers not putting their hands up, if you will, or getting tested on a regular basis.

What is your message to all of those anxious, nervous, and very concerned parents?

- First of all, I don't blame them.

Count me in that same category.

This thing has been brutal on our mental health, on our kids, on things like learning loss, the lack of being able to socialize.

Who could blame anybody for being frustrated, after what is now going on 19 plus months of this?

So we've been guided, Steve, by two principles on the back-to-school reality.

One is it's gotta be safe.

And we believe that that mandate to get educators and all school staff vaccinated by the middle of October, or face multiple tests, up to multiple tests a week.

We think that is an incredibly important component.

And by the way, important to note that educators start at a very high level of vaccination to begin with.

So I can't give you an exact number.

I don't know that anyone has an exact number, but it is meaningfully above the state's number.

And our state's number is among the highest percentage of folks vaccinated in the country.

And then on top of that, and again, it brings me no joy, no joy at all.

We gotta ask folks to wear masks, at least for now, all- everybody inside that school building, including the students.

We think the combination keeps everybody safe.

The other principle, just- I've already said it once, but I want to make sure everyone knows.

We've got to push back against the learning loss.

The learning loss was overwhelming.

And we know in the best way to push back on that is to be in the classroom together.

And those are the two guiding principles for us, back to school.

- Governor, we're up against a quick break.

I promise we'll be right back in just a few seconds, but I want to ask you this: a lot of people on social media also asked us this question, and parents; why not the virtual option?

If I can get a quick response to that, why not having the virtual option as well?

- Because learning loss is so significant, and we've got the data to back it up.

Virtual learning- by the way, everyone was a hero associated with it, but it doesn't come close to the richness of the learning that you get in a classroom.

- That is Governor Phil Murphy.

Steve Adubato here.

We'll have former State Assemblyman, Jack Ciattarelli, in a separate half hour on the issues.

We can't cover all the issues, but the issues that matter, that we perceive, that are most important to you.

The election is on November the 2nd, we'll be right back, right after this.

- [Voiceover] To watch more "State of Affairs" with Steve Adubato, find us online, and follow us on social media.

- Welcome back, I'm Steve Adubato.

That is Governor Phil Murphy, the 56th Governor of the great state of New Jersey.

Governor, quick follow-up, we've been involved in an initiative you're well aware of.

We've also spoken to the First Lady about this, called Reimagine Childcare, looking at childcare, not just because it's childcare, but childcare directly connected to the economy.

People being able to work, et cetera, et cetera.

As we do this program, late in September, a mandate about all those in childcare centers, having to be vaccinated, or testing on a regular basis.

And 2, 3, 4 year olds with masks.

You're confident that that's the right way to go?

- Yeah, listen, it doesn't bring me any joy, but it's what the CDC recommends.

It's what all of our neighboring states are doing.

And it mimics the K through 12 protocols that we have.

People ask me, over the past couple of weeks, you know, "What about a two year old?

Keeping a mask on a two-year-old?"

And I have complete sympathy with this.

So we just got to ask everybody to do the very best job they can.

We're basing this, again, even if it's unpopular, politically or otherwise, we're basing these decisions, not on politics, but on science, the data, the facts.

And the facts and science and data tell us this is the right thing to do.

By the way, Steve, I hope not forever and always, I hope this is a temporary phenomenon, and we can get back to completely normal reality, sooner than later.

- Governor, the other thing that brings you no joy to talk about, is the fact that at least 1/3 of the businesses in the state are closed, particularly smaller businesses.

The restrictions, the shutdowns, some industries impacted more than others, some deemed to be essential and some non-essential.

In looking back, it's easy to be a Monday, or whatever day quarterback, you choose.

Do you regret any of those decisions, particularly early on, that had to do with those businesses, and the restrictions, and the shutdowns?

- I think, Steve, if you base your decisions based on the facts and the data and the science, as painful as this has been for small businesses, and believe me, there are examples up and down, littered throughout this state, you gotta put public health before economic health; you have to.

And you'll look at states around the country that did it the other way around.

And as we sit here, Southeast, Southwest, you've got raging pandemics, hospital ICU units filled up.

We just had- we had no choice.

Now I will tell you what we've also done, we have put, other than California and New York, we've put more money on the street than any American state.

And they're a lot bigger than we are.

And we'll continue to do that.

We have- whether it's loans, grants, equity, you name it.

We will continue to pump support into our small business community.

The good news is, we think about 30% of them- bad news is, 30% of them closed.

Good news, is you see a lot now, either reopening, or others stepping into their shoes.

We want to get as many people in businesses on their feet as fast as we can, and we'll continue to be there for them.

- By the way, if you're just joining us, Governor Phil Murphy, Steve Adubato here, Jack Ciattarelli in a separate half-hour.

Governor, so many questions came in.

And by the way, this is encouraging that so many questions came in asking about infrastructure.

And as we do this program, follow what's going on in Washington, follow "NJ Spotlight News", "Metro Focus", and other places you can get accurate information on day-to-day basis.

Governor, infrastructure, energy, so many questions about that.

Give me a minute or less on the combination of infrastructure, energy-related issues, and our economy.

- Yeah, it's a game changer for us.

We're the most densely populated American state.

We have a disproportionate share of legacy assets.

Any bill that gets through Congress, whether it's just the hard assets, or my preference, it includes hard assets, and a lot of the so-called softer infrastructure, New Jersey is a disproportionate winner.

We have a master plan for a 100% clean energy economy by the year 2050.

We've finally flushed these crazy myths; either you could have a clean environment, or you could create jobs, we're doing both.

Look at offshore wind, and the potential for union jobs there.

This is all game changing stuff.

And sadly, look at the storms of a few weeks ago, Ida in particular, which took 30 lives, look at the climate resiliency infrastructure that we so desperately need.

Again, anything out of Congress, game changer for New Jersey.

- Real quick on Ida.

- Jack Ciattarelli, some others, "Governor Murphy didn't act quickly enough, wasn't enough done to let people know what was going on so they could protect themselves."

You say?

- Yeah, the record is clear.

I mean, we formed a conference call at 10:00 in the morning with all 21 County OEMs, and the National Weather Service.

We activated our emergency management.

- OEM, Office of Emergency Management?

You had me on that acronym, Governor, that's emergency management people?

- Yeah, from all 21 counties at 10:00, we activated the state's emergency- the so-called OEM at noon.

We did a press conference at 1:00, we sent out social media warnings, phones, got warned.

It's an awful tragedy.

I've seen- I've been at many of the communities that were impacted by this.

In the South, where tornadoes touched down, devastation, but no loss of life.

Overwhelmingly, Central and Northern Jersey, the loss of life was from water, either in people's homes, or in their cars, absolute tragedy.

I am thankful to President Biden and FEMA that we have 12 counties with major disaster declaration.

So hopefully, God willing, get folks back on their feet, as soon as we can.

- Governor, shifting gears dramatically, recovering as much as we can, but in the most substantive way possible.

Governor, much talked about, the Edna Mahan Correctional Facility shut down, correct?

- It is not at the moment, but I've ordered that it will be shut down.

- It will be- shut down?

- We need to figure out what the next step is, and I've got a team working on that morning, noon, and night.

- But being shut down?

- It will be shut down, period.

- That's- I want to be clear.

There was an attack that took place- and you can check NJ.Com, other places for this, on January 11th, there was an attack.

I'm not gonna go into the details, but corrections officers, all of whom that were identified, are being dealt with by the law.

There were women who were in that correctional facility- it's a female correctional facility, who said they were handcuffed to radiators, who were raped, who were beaten.

It was a pre-planned assault.

Governor, it's- this is the question: When did you find out about that assault, A, and B very simply, why wasn't the Head of the Department of Corrections fired immediately?

- Yeah, to answer your first question, I can't remember when, but it was very soon thereafter.

I can give you a date if I looked at my diary.

I was disgusted by this, absolutely disgusted, and we took action immediately, Steve.

You've gotta make sure you've got- that we understood exactly what happened.

So the Attorney General acted immediately.

And I think that we've now arrested 10 individuals as a result of that awful, disgusting incident.

I put it in-place, almost immediately, an independent investigation, whose report came out a few months ago.

And immediately I made the decision, based on that report, that we have to close this facility.

The Commissioner stepped down.

We have an Acting Commissioner, we have a national search for a permanent solution.

We need to turn the page here.

And by the way, that awful incident in January was not the first one at that place.

- No, it was not.

- This has been- - There was a history, Governor.

- It's been building for decades, enough already.

We gotta turn the page, and put this thing in our rear view mirror, and do right by these people.

- Governor, you've been an advocate for women.

You've spoken out on the Me Too movement on behalf of that movement.

But I just want to ask you this: the Katie Brennan incident- and again, Google it, and read whatever you choose to read about it.

But Katie Brennan, recently, actually, on public broadcasting, talking about her experience, she was part of the 2017 campaign.

She charged that she was sexually assaulted by one of the campaign aides of yours.

This is the question: do you, in any way, feel that if you could do it again, you would have handled that situation differently?

- First of all, what happened to her was awful, like it is for so many other survivors.

I've apologized to her privately and publicly, and we have made real changes inside of our government.

And especially as it relates to workplace conditions, training in our campaign, by the way.

Run, I might add, by two women, a majority-female team with the sort of stuff, training workplace environment that you would want.

The broader society, Steve, in New Jersey, as awful as these realities are for survivors, there's no state in America that has more of an outreach now, as a result of a lot of steps we've taken, including by the Attorney General.

And those are the lasting lessons that I've taken from that awful experience.

There's no question, it has contributed to changing the nature of our administration, our campaign, and indeed, our state.

- Governor, got about a minute-and-a-half left.

Make the case, A, why four more years, and what would happen?

And B, if we have time, why not Jack Ciattarelli?

Please.

- Listen, it's great to be on with you.

There's no state in America like New Jersey, let's stipulate that.

But for far too long, our state has punched under its weight; we underachieved, we let our people down, and I can say, definitively, those days are over.

Even in the midst of an awful pandemic and tragedy, it is sunrise in New Jersey.

And think about the impact, tax equity, in fairness, for hundreds of thousands of families.

Increased minimum wage for billions.

Thankfully, at long last, affordable health care.

Women's health care that's funded and protected.

College is more accessible for more.

We celebrate our incredible diversity.

So we've begun an awful lot together, but our work is not done.

And the last thing we could do right now, Steve, is to go backward, back to the bad old days.

We've gotta keep moving forward.

The last thing we need right now is extreme leadership in our state.

It's the honorable lifetime to be the Governor of this great state.

And I'm asking folks to give us four more years to finish the job.

- Governor, first and most importantly, on behalf of everyone on our production team, and our partners and colleagues and public broadcasting, thank you for taking the time to be with us, to talk about the issues, to respond to every question.

So I'm gonna thank you, Governor.

- Thanks for having me, Steve.

It's always a treat to be on.

- And same here, as having you, Governor.

But I want to say this to everyone.

It's not my place to do commentary or analysis, but here's the thing.

The election's on November the 2nd.

Your job, as an American who cares about our democracy, our country, our state, is to not just watch this program, but watch the debates, learn about the issues, learn about the candidates.

January 6th spoke for itself.

This program, what we do, is about civil, respectful, sometimes disagreeing, but always respectful discourse.

That's what we've engaged in with the Governor, that's what we will do with Jack Ciattarelli.

But just remember that it is your job, not only to learn about the issues and the candidates, but to vote on November 2nd.

'Cause last time I checked, Governor, democracy is not a spectator sport.

Thank you, Governor Murphy.

- You got it, thank you, Steve.

I'm Steve Adubato, we thank you so much for watching.

- [Narrator] State of Affairs with Steve Adubato Is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Hackensack Meridian Health.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

Operating Engineers, local 825.

Summit Health New Jersey Institute of Technology.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

NJM Insurance Group.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Eastern Atlantic States Regional Council of Carpenters.

And by these public spirited organizations, individuals and associations committed to informing New Jersey citizens about the important issues facing the Garden State.

And by Employers Association of New Jersey.

Promotional support provided by CIANJ, and Commerce Magazine.

ROI-NJ, And by Insider NJ.