REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE HAVE A REALLY INTERESTING SHOW TODAY AND OUR GUESTS ARE FORMER SENATOR DEDE FELDMAN AND CLIFFORD REES WHO HAS BEEN, WHAT IS YOUR ONE SENTENCE FOR ALL OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE DONE?

>>CLIFFORD: I AM A PUBLIC SERVANT AT THE INTERSECTION OF LAW, HISTORY AND POLITICS, THAT IS HOW I DESCRIBE MYSELF.

>>LORENE: THAT'S THE BEST, THAT'S THE BEST.

WE ARE GOING TO LOOK AT THE ISSUE OF MODERNIZATION OF THE LEGISLATURE, WHICH IS A FESTERING ISSUE THAT NEEDS LOOKING AT AND THIS IS THE PERFECT TIME.

DEDE, BEFORE WE START ANOTHER ONE, I WANT TO HAVE YOU TALK A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR BOOKS BECAUSE THEY ARE SUCH A GIFT TO ANYONE IN NEW MEXICO WHO IS INTERESTED IN POLITICS.

>>DEDE: WELL THANK YOU, THANK YOU, LORENE, AND YES, I HAVE BEEN BUSY SINCE I LEFT THE LEGISLATURE IN 2012 AND HAVE WRITTEN THREE DIFFERENT BOOKS.

TWO OF THEM DIRECTLY BEAR ON THE NEW MEXICO LEGISLATURE AND MY EXPERIENCES THERE.

THE FIRST ONE IS INSIDE THE NEW MEXICO SENATE: BOOTS, SUITS, AND CITIZENS.

AND MUCH OF THIS EXPLAINS HOW THE LEGISLATURE WORKS AND HOW IT DOES NOT WORK WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT TODAY, I THINK.

WE HAVE A LOT OF MATERIAL IN THERE ABOUT THAT.

AND THEN THE OTHER ONE, THAT I'D MENTIONED IS MY RECENT MEMOIR TEN MORE DOORS , WHICH IS ABOUT MY CAMPAIGNS, COMING TO NEW MEXICO, AND ALSO KIND OF MY PERSONAL STORY OF STRUGGLING WITH SOME OF THESE ISSUES BOTH INSIDE AND OUTSIDE OF THE SENATE.

YOU KNOW THE OTHER BOOKS THAT I HAVE WRITTEN AND I DID ANOTHER ONE ON NONPROFITS CALLED ANOTHER WAY FORWARD .

BUT THOSE TWO WERE WRITTEN IN A JOURNALISTIC THIRD PERSON STYLE, BUT TEN MORE DOORS , I USED THE DREADED "I" WORD, "I" FELT THIS.

AND I NEVER FELT REALLY FREE TO EXPRESS THAT EITHER IN THE OTHER TWO OR SOMETIMES ON THE FLOOR OF THE NEW MEXICO SENATE.

>>LORENE: WELL YOU DO HAVE AN INTERESTING BACKGROUND BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN A JOURNALIST FOR MANY YEARS AND ALSO YOU ARE VERY SKILLED IN PR.

SO I CAN SEE HOW YOU WOULD HAVE THE TENSION BETWEEN THE JOURNALISTIC AND THEN THE PR, LET'S MAKE IT IN THE PASSIVE VOICE AND WE WILL JUST PUT IT OUT THERE AND NOT SAY, I DID IT, BUT IT HAPPENED, IT SO HAPPENED.

>>DEDE: YES.

>>LORENE: SO I REALLY THINK PARTICULARLY INSIDE THE NEW MEXICO SENATE , IS ONE OF THE BEST BOOKS FOR ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO READ ABOUT HOW THINGS REALLY WORK.

>>DEDE: AND HOW THEY DON'T WORK.

>>LORENE: AND HOW THEY DON'T WORK.

>>DEDE: AND HOW THEY DON'T WORK SOMETIMES.

>>LORENE: NOW, CLIFFORD REES, YOU BRING SUCH A SENSE OF HISTORY AND KEEN OBSERVATION FOR YEARS.

I AM NOT GOING TO TRY TO DESCRIBE YOUR BACKGROUND, BUT IF YOU COULD GIVE OUR AUDIENCE A LITTLE SENSE OF HOW INTIMATELY YOU HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH SO MANY PROCESSES AND FOR SO LONG.

>>CLIFFORD: SURE, I WOULD BE GLAD TO.

SO I JOINED STATE GOVERNMENT IN 1980 AND I HAVE BEEN AN ATTORNEY FOR FOUR DIFFERENT AGENCIES FOR OVER 25 YEARS, RETIRING IN 2005.

MOST OF THAT TIME, 23 OF THOSE 25 YEARS, I WAS AN ATTORNEY WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND ITS PREDECESSOR, THE HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT.

JUST AFTER I RETIRED, I GOT A CALL FROM SENATOR FELDMAN, I HAD SERVED AS AN EXPERT WITNESS FOR HER ON SEVERAL OF HER BILLS.

SHE ASKED ME TO JOIN HER STAFF WHEN THE PUBLIC AFFAIRS COMMITTEE NOW CALLED THE SENATE HEALTH AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS COMMITTEE, WE DID A LOT OF WORK TOGETHER DURING, BASICALLY UNTIL SHE RETIRED IN 2012 AND WE HAVE, OF COURSE, CONTINUED TO STAY ACQUAINTED WITH VARIOUS ISSUES.

I HAVE WORKED SEASONALLY FOR THE LEGISLATURE BOTH AS AN EMPLOYEE, MEANING JUST DURING THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION, SEASONALLY.

THEY ARE FULL TIME YEAR AROUND EMPLOYEES, I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE BUT THEY ARE VERY IMPORTANT AND VERY GOOD PEOPLE.

BUT I HAVE WORKED SEASONALLY BOTH AS AN EMPLOYEE FOR THE SENATE AND ALSO AS A CONTRACTOR FOR THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR AND MOST RECENTLY FOR THE LEGISLATIVE FINANCE COMMITTEE.

SO I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE MY EXECUTIVE EXPERIENCE INTO THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH AND, OF COURSE, AS AN ATTORNEY I'M PART OF THE JUDICIARY SO I HAVE WORKED IN ALL THREE BRANCHES IN STATE GOVERNMENT.

>>LORENE: INDEED.

IN 2003 WHEN YOU WERE ONE OF THE ATTORNEYS AT THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, YOU PASSED A VERY PRESCIENT ACT, WILL YOU TALK ABOUT HOW PHERA, THE NEW MEXICO PUBLIC HEALTH AND EMERGENCY RESPONSE ACT, SET UP, IN A VISIONARY WAY SO LONG AGO AND HOW WE FINALLY REALLY NEEDED TO IMPLEMENT IT.

>>CLIFFORD: WELL, I DIDN'T PASS IT BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE A VOTE, BUT SENATOR FELDMAN AND REPRESENTATIVE JOHN HEATON BOTH AGREED TO SPONSOR THE PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY RESPONSE ACT IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE TRAGEDY OF 9/11.

WE WENT THROUGH A VERY EXTENSIVE PUBLIC PROCESS IN 2002 BEFORE AND I HAD SOME GREAT CO-AUTHORS IN SUPPORT, I CERTAINLY DID NOT DO IT ALL BY MYSELF.

THAT LAW, THE PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY RESPONSE ACT HAD SAT ON THE SHELF UNTIL MARCH 11, 2020, WHEN GOVERNOR LUJAN-GRISHAM DECLARED THE PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY BECAUSE OF THE COVID 19 PANDEMIC AND IT HAS BEEN USED FOR THE FIRST TIME FOR THE LAST TWO PLUS YEARS.

>>LORENE: IT WAS VERY NECESSARY, SO THANK YOU TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THIS HAPPEN AND JUST LIKE A TICK WAITING ON A BRANCH FOR A COW TO GO BY, BOOM HERE COMES COVID AND WE REALLY HAD TO STEP UP ON A REALLY BROAD, PUBLIC HEALTH ARENA.

>>CLIFFORD: WE KNEW WE WOULD NEED IT EVENTUALLY, WE DIDN'T KNOW WHEN.

I NEVER REALLY DREAMED THAT I WOULD BE SUBJECT TO A LAW THAT I HAD HELPED PASS, BUT IT HAS BEEN UPHELD BY THE NEW MEXICO SUPREME COURT TWICE.

>>DEDE: JUST RECENTLY, JUST RECENTLY NOW THE FOLKS THAT WERE CHALLENGING IT DECIDED TO DROP THEIR LAWSUIT BECAUSE IT WAS SO AIRTIGHT.

>>CLIFFORD: WE DID OUR JOBS WELL, IT IS NOT PERFECT BUT IT HAS SERVED ITS PURPOSE AND I AM VERY GRATEFUL THAT WE WERE ABLE TO DO THAT.

I THINK WE SAVED AND THE GOVERNOR'S COURAGEOUS USE OF IT SAVED A LOT OF LIVES.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

SO, YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING TOGETHER ON THE IDEAS FOR MODERNIZING THE LEGISLATURE AND, OF COURSE, WE DON'T NEED TO SPEND MUCH TIME ON WHAT WORKS BECAUSE THE REAL IMPROVEMENTS NEED TO BE MADE IN WHAT DOESN'T WORK.

SO TELL WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT NOW, RIGHT NOW, TO DO THIS.

>>DEDE: WELL, WE ARE ESSENTIALLY WORKING UNDER A STRUCTURE THAT WAS SET UP IN 1912, IN A VERY DIFFERENT ERA THAN WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW.

IT WAS SET UP BASICALLY FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF FARMERS AND RANCHERS WHO APPRECIATED THE SHORT, WINTER SESSIONS, SO THEY COULD MAINTAIN THEIR OCCUPATION WHICH WAS RANCHING AND FARMING BACK IN RURAL NEW MEXICO.

SO THAT WAS PART OF IT, IT WAS ALSO A CITIZENS, WE HAVE ONE OF THE ONLY CITIZENS LEGISLATURES IN THE COUNTRY, WHERE LEGISLATORS MAINTAIN THEIR DAY JOBS AS WELL AS BEING A LEGISLATOR PASSING LAWS THAT AFFECT SO MANY PEOPLE, SO MANY MILLIONS AND THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF EVERYONE.

SO THE STRUCTURE HAS NEEDED AN OVERHAUL FOR A LONG TIME, IT HAS NOW BECOME GLARINGLY OBVIOUS THAT 30 DAYS IS TOO SHORT A TIME PERIOD TO HANDLE 2,000 BILLS FOR EXAMPLE, AND THAT THE ONLY FOLKS THAT ARE SERVING OR MOSTLY THE FOLKS THAT ARE SERVING ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE ABLE TO SUBSIDIZE THEIR OWN SERVICE AND THAT COUNTS OUT A LOT OF NEW MEXICANS AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN RECENTLY IS PEOPLE ARE DROPPING OUT, ESPECIALLY YOUNG WOMEN WITH FAMILIES.

THEY ARE DROPPING OUT OF THE NEW MEXICO LEGISLATURE ONCE HAVING BEEN APPOINTED OR ELECTED AND GONE THROUGH ALL OF THAT BECAUSE THEY SEE THEY CANNOT DO EVERYTHING AND DO A GOOD JOB.

>>LORENE: SO TWO OF THE MAIN AREAS THAT WE WILL TALK ABOUT TODAY ARE SALARIES AND THEN THE LENGTH OF THE SESSION, HOW TO STRUCTURE THE SESSION SO THAT ALL THAT WORK CAN GET DONE.

>>CLIFFORD: THERE HAVE BEEN OVER THE YEARS ATTEMPTS TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES.

THE NEW MEXICO CONSTITUTION AND I NEVER LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT, IT IS POCKET SIZE IN MY POCKET, ONLY SAYS THAT THE LEGISLATORS CANNOT SERVE WITH COMPENSATION, THEY SERVE WITHOUT COMPENSATION.

THAT HAS BEEN INTERPRETED TO MEAN SALARIES.

LEGISLATORS DO GET OTHER TYPES OF BENEFITS, THEY ARE ELIGIBLE TO GET A RETIREMENT IF THEY PAY INTO IT, INSURANCE AND PER DIEM IN MILEAGE WHEN THEY TRAVEL TO AND FROM SANTA FE OR INTERIM COMMITTEES, BUT IT IS NOT NEARLY ENOUGH, IT DOESN'T FILL THE GAP OF EVEN A PART TIME SALARY, EVEN A SMALL SALARY DOES NOT MEET THE EXPENSES.

I HAVE HAD ONE LEGISLATOR TELL ME THAT HE HAS SPENT $55,000 A YEAR OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET TO BE A LEGISLATOR.

THAT IS NOT RIGHT AND THERE ARE LEGISLATORS WHO USE THEIR CAMPAIGN FUNDS TO HELP DEFRAY THE COST OF BEING A LEGISLATOR, THAT'S NOT RIGHT EITHER.

THAT SHOULD BE USED FOR CAMPAIGNS THAT IS WHAT DONORS THINK THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING TO A CANDIDATE FOR, IT'S FOR THE CAMPAIGN, IT SHOULDN'T BE TO PAY FOR AN ASSISTANT OR AN OFFICE.

>>LORENE: CAN WE EMPHASIZE AGAIN, ARE WE THE ONLY STATE WITH A SO-CALLED AMATEUR OR VOLUNTEER, THAT SHIP HAS SAILED.

>>CLIFFORD: MY UNDERSTANDING IS NEW HAMPSHIRE PAYS $100 A YEAR.

I WENT TO LAW SCHOOL IN NEW HAMPSHIRE AND THEY HAVE THE LARGEST HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF ANY STATE LEGISLATURE BECAUSE EVERY TOWN WANTED A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONCORD, NEW HAMPSHIRE, THEIR CAPITOL.

THE $100 A YEAR, THAT IS BASICALLY NO COMPENSATION.

SO WE REALLY ARE THE TWO THAT DON'T PAY A REASONABLE SALARY TO EVEN OUR PART TIME LEGISLATORS.

>>LORENE: SO IT SEEMS TO ME NOW THAT THE STATE IS COMFORTABLY WELL OFF RIGHT NOW WITH A LITTLE EXTRA MONEY THIS WOULD BE A REALLY GOOD TIME.

IF ANYBODY COMES HERE AND EVEN PAGES OR WATCHES OR COMES TO A COMMITTEE HEARING, THEY REALIZE THAT THESE ARE GRUELING, SOME OF THE COMMITTEES GO ON INTO THE NIGHT, SOME OF THE FLOOR SESSIONS GO INTO THE NIGHT.

I REMEMBER ONE YEAR WHERE THEY BROUGHT COTS INTO THE BACK WHEN SENATOR STODDARD WAS HERE.

THEY BROUGHT COTS INTO THE CORRIDOR INTO THE SENATE BECAUSE PEOPLE JUST COULDN'T SIT UP DURING THE LENGTH OF THE SESSIONS.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE ALWAYS PASSIONATELY BELIEVED IN BECAUSE I KNOW HOW HARD LAWMAKERS WORK, I JUST THINK THAT THIS WOULD BE A GOOD TIME WHILE WE HAVE THE MONEY TO REALLY LOOK AT COMPENSATING THESE PUBLIC SERVANTS IN A MEANINGFUL WAY.

>>DEDE: YEAH.

THE PROBLEM OF COURSE IS THAT IT REQUIRES A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT AND SO DOES LENGTHENING THE SESSION.

NOW THERE HAVE BEEN COUNTLESS BILLS AND MEMORIALS THAT HAVE TRIED TO GET AT THIS PROBLEM AND NONE OF THEM HAVE SUCCEEDED, PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF A LACK OF FUNDS, BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF THE TIME THAT WE LIVE IN NOW WHERE PEOPLE ARE TURNED OFF BY PROFESSIONAL, SO CALLED PROFESSIONAL POLITICIANS.

AND WE SEE THIS IN THE CURRENT CAMPAIGN FOR GOVERNOR AND AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE RUNNING AGAINST PROFESSIONAL POLICYMAKERS, THERE IS GOING TO BE A FEAR ON THE PART OF LEGISLATORS THAT IF THEY VOTE FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS THEN IT WILL BE USED AGAINST THEM IN THEIR CAMPAIGN BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT A MAN OR A WOMAN OF THE PEOPLE.

>>LORENE: BUT ISN'T THERE USUALLY A CLAUSE THAT THE LAWMAKERS VOTING ON THE RAISE IT DOESN'T APPLY WHEN THEY ARE SERVING, IT TAKES PLACE IN THREE OR FOUR YEARS.

>>DEDE: THAT'S CORRECT.

BUT WHO KNOWS THAT, I MEAN THAT IS REALLY IN THE WEEDS, THE LEGISLATORS CANNOT VOTE TO GIVE THEMSELVES A SALARY HIKE, IT HAS TO BE AN INDEPENDENT AGENCY THAT DOES THAT AND THAT HAS BEEN PART OF THE PROPOSALS MANY TIMES.

BUT STILL THERE IS THIS FEELING THAT WE A, EITHER AS CLIFF SAID WE CAN'T PAY FOR IT, WE ARE A POOR STATE AND WE CAN'T PAY PEOPLE TO BE A LEGISLATOR AND MY RESPONSE TO THAT IS YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

>>CLIFFORD: AND THE REALITY IS, LORENE, THAT WE PAY COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, WE PAY CITY COUNSELORS, WE PAY MAYORS HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

IT'S NOT LIKE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT IS GOING TO FATALLY CORRUPT THE SYSTEM, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FAIR COMPENSATION FOR WHAT HAS BASICALLY BECOME A FULL TIME JOB.

>>LORENE: BUT UNFORTUNATELY, SOME WOULD SAY THAT BY NOT PAYING THEM, WE LEAVE THEM OPEN TO ANOTHER FORM OF CORRUPTION BEING WINED AND DINED AND LOBBYISTS CURRYING FAVORS.

I BELIEVE IN THE INTEGRITY OF OUR LAWMAKERS, BUT SOME SAY, YOU KNOW BY NOT PAYING THEM, WE ARE LEAVING THIS DOOR OPEN.

>>DEDE: WELL CONFLICT OF INTEREST IS BUILT INTO THE SYSTEM.

WHEN YOU HAVE A CITIZENS LEGISLATURE AND YOU HAVE LOOSE RULES ON WHETHER THEY REALLY NEED TO RECUSE THEMSELVES FROM MEASURES THAT AFFECT THEIR OWN LIVELIHOODS.

WE HAVE SO MANY INSURANCE BROKERS, REAL ESTATE AGENTS, LAWYERS, MANY OF THESE VOTE EVERY DAY ON STUFF THAT AFFECTS THEIR PROFESSION AND SOMETIMES THEIR OWN LIVELIHOOD AND IT IS VERY RARE THAT THEY RECUSE THEMSELVES.

FORTUNATELY, WE HAVE AN ETHICS COMMISSION NOW, BUT THAT IS JUST A RECENT PHENOMENON.

NOT HAVING A STAFF, I THINK IS WHAT YOU MAY BE REFERRING TO, BECAUSE THAT LEAVES THEM OPEN TO UNDO INFLUENCE FROM LOBBYISTS WHO AFTER ALL MAY BE THE ONLY EXPERTS IN A GIVEN FIELD, SO THEY RELY ON THAT.

I HAVE RELIED ON THEM WHEN I WAS A LEGISLATOR AND IT TAKES A WHILE TO FIGURE OUT WHO ARE THE ONES YOU CAN TRUST AND WHO ARE THE ONES YOU CAN'T TRUST.

>>LORENE: WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH FORMER SENATOR DEDE FELDMAN, ALSO AUTHOR OF SOME REALLY IMPORTANT BOOKS ABOUT OUR POLITICAL PROCESS AND WITH CLIFFORD REES, MAY I CALL YOU CLIFF, A FORMER NEW MEXICO STATE GOVERNMENT ATTORNEY WITH A VAST, VAST FIELD OF EXPERTISE.

>>CLIFFORD: LORENE, I DO WANT TO MENTION THAT TODAY I AM SPEAKING STRICTLY ON BEHALF OF MYSELF.

I HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH MANY DEPARTMENTS AND ELECTED AND APPOINTED OFFICIALS, BUT I AM NOT SPEAKING FOR ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF.

MY OPINIONS ARE MINE, I TAKE TOTAL RESPONSIBILITY.

>>LORENE: I BROUGHT YOU HERE FOR THOSE OPINIONS.

SO I THINK YOU HAVE MADE THAT VERY CLEAR AND I AM VERY GRATEFUL THAT YOU ARE HERE.

>>CLIFFORD: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: SO I THINK IT WILL TAKE AN EXTRAORDINARY KIND OF LEADERSHIP TO CAST AWAY THOSE DOUBTS AND RELUCTANCES.

YOU KNOW I WOULD LOVE TO SEE A VISIONARY LEADER STEP UP AND SAY, "IT'S TIME, WE GET WHAT WE PAY FOR."

>>DEDE: YOU KNOW, I THINK ALSO THE PUBLIC IS MUCH MORE RECEPTIVE NOW, DESPITE WHAT SOME POLITICIANS SAY, THE PUBLIC IS MORE RESPONSIVE TO HAVING A PROFESSIONAL LEGISLATURE BECAUSE IT IS IN THEIR INTEREST.

THEY WOULD GET BETTER CONSTITUENT SERVICES FOR EXAMPLE, MUCH MORE COMMUNICATION BETWEEN LEGISLATORS AND THEIR DISTRICT.

WE HAVE DONE SOME POLLING, I AM NOW WORKING AS A CONSULTANT FOR COMMON CAUSE NEW MEXICO AND THEY HAVE DONE SOME POLLING OVER THE PAST FIVE YEARS ABOUT THE LEVEL OF PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR SALARIES.

AND IT HAS INCREASED EACH YEAR AND SO I THINK NOW IT IS ABOUT 59 PERCENT OF THE PUBLIC.

>>LORENE: OH THAT'S GREAT.

YES.

>>DEDE: THAT SUPPORTS, TO SOME DEGREE, PAYING LEGISLATORS SALARIES.

NOW, OF COURSE, THE DEVILS IN THE DETAILS, WHAT IS THAT SALARY?

THERE HAVE BEEN PROPOSALS FROM REPUBLICANS THAT IT SHOULD BE AT THE POVERTY LEVEL, ALLEN HURT, A SENATOR FROM FARMINGTON, PROPOSED THAT BACK IN THE EARLY 2000S SHOULD BE AT THE POVERTY LEVEL AND IT SHOULD ALL GO FOR CONSTITUENT SERVICES.

BUT LEGISLATORS HAVE NO ALLOWANCE EVEN NOW FOR CONSTITUENT SERVICES, BUT I THINK THE PUBLIC SUPPORT IS INCREASING.

>>CLIFFORD: AND I THINK, LORENE, THAT BECAUSE OF COVID-19 WHICH HAS CHANGED SO MUCH OF HOW WE SEE OUR INSTITUTIONS, THAT THE VIRTUAL EXPANSION OF THE VIRTUAL LEGISLATURE, OUT OF NECESSITY, I THINK IT HAS EXPOSED THE LEGISLATURE IN A POSITIVE WAY TO THE PUBLIC IN WAYS THAT PERHAPS MANY PEOPLE HAVE NEVER SEEN.

IT HAS ALLOWED PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE IN COMMITTEE HEARINGS FOR INSTANCE IN THE PUBLIC COMMENTS SECTION VIRTUALLY FROM LAS CRUCES OR HOBBS.

BEFORE THEY HAD TO COME TO SANTA FE TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO A COMMITTEE SUCH AS THE ONE THAT SENATOR FELDMAN CHAIRED.

SO I THINK THERE IS A GREATER KNOWLEDGE, IT IS NOT EVERYBODY OF COURSE, NOT EVERYBODY IS INTERESTED NECESSARILY, BUT I THINK THERE IS A GREATER KNOWLEDGE OF HOW A LEGISLATURE WORKS AND HOW IT DOESN'T WORK FRANKLY.

THERE HAVE BEEN FRUSTRATIONS OF COURSE THAT HAVE ALSO BEEN EXPOSED.

>>LORENE: BUT ONE OF THE BENEFITS OF THAT IT WAS SO EMPOWERING TO A CITIZEN IN HOBBS OR IN FARMINGTON.

YOU KNOW WHEN IT WAS ALL ONLY IN PERSON THEY WOULD DRIVE DOWN HERE AND WAIT FOR THEIR BILL AND THEN IT WOULD BE PUT OFF TILL THE NEXT DAY AND YOU KNOW IT WAS REALLY HARD, NOW THEY CAN JUST ZOOM IN, AND I, OF COURSE, WATCH IT ALL VIRTUALLY THIS LAST TIME AND IT WAS WONDERFUL HEARING FROM PEOPLE AND SOME OF THEM HAD NEVER EXPRESSED THEIR FEELINGS ABOUT SOME OF THESE BILLS.

AND IT WAS REALLY POWERFUL TO HEAR THEM, IT WAS WONDERFUL.

SO THAT BRINGS US UP, YES THE MORE VIRTUAL PRESENTATIONS WE CAN DO THE BETTER.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE THORNY ISSUE OF HOW LONG SHOULD THE SESSIONS BE AND ONE OF YOUR IDEAS, ONE OF THE IDEAS THAT CAME UP WAS TO HAVE THEM MEET FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME, GO HOME FOR THAT SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AND STUDY THE BILLS AND RESEARCH THE BILLS AND THEN COME BACK BY THE TIME EVERYONE HAD READ THE BILLS.

BECAUSE WE KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE, IT IS A 300 PAGE TAX BILL AND YOU HAVE GOT TO VOTE ON IT THE NEXT MORNING WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO, SLEEP WITH IT UNDER YOUR PILLOW, YOU KNOW IT IS JUST TOO HARD.

GO AHEAD.

>>CLIFFORD: YOU CAN ASK YOUR STAFF TO READ IT, WHICH IS WHAT I USED TO DO.

BECAUSE THE LEGISLATORS ARE IN COMMITTEES, THEY ARE ON THE FLOOR, THEY ARE IN CAUCUSES AND UNLESS YOU GET UP VERY, VERY EARLY IN THE MORNING OR STAY UP VERY LATE AT NIGHT, YOU NEED SUPPORT.

AND THIS IS WHY THERE IS A NEED FOR INCREASE STAFF WHO ARE PAID TO DO THAT WORK AND THAT THEN FREES UP THE LEGISLATORS TO DO WHAT I THINK THEY REALLY WANT TO DO WHICH IS DEVELOP POLICY THROUGH LEGISLATION AND SERVE THEIR CONSTITUENTS, THAT'S WHAT THEY REALLY WANT TO DO.

IT IS INTERESTING, AS WE TALK WITH VARIOUS PEOPLE ABOUT THIS PROCESS, THERE ARE REFORMS, MODERNIZATIONS THAT THE LEGISLATORS WANT TO MAKE THEIR LIVES EASIER, UNDERSTANDABLY SO, LIKE STAFF AND DISTRICT OFFICES FOR INSTANCE.

AND THEN THERE ARE REFORMS THAT PEOPLE FROM THE OUTSIDE WANT TO SEE HAPPENING, LARGELY IN TERMS OF INCREASED TRANSPARENCY, WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT AS WELL.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>DEDE: YEAH.

YOU KNOW INTERESTINGLY, THE STAFF QUESTION DOES NOT REQUIRE A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, IT IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE DONE WITH A RECURRING APPROPRIATION, AND I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY POLLING DATA ON THAT.

BUT THAT IS SOMETHING THE LEGISLATURE COULD DO AND COULD DO NEXT SESSION AND THAT WOULD SOLVE, I THINK, A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS FOR LEGISLATORS WHO ARE REALLY OVERWORKED AND AS I SAID, SOME OF WHOM ARE RESIGNING BECAUSE THEY CAN'T KEEP A FULL TIME JOB AND BE A MOTHER OF A YOUNG CHILD OR A FATHER OF A YOUNG CHILD AND STILL PRODUCE QUALITY LEGISLATION.

PEOPLE WANT TO FOCUS, I MEAN THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY'VE STUDIED AND THAT IS THAT LEGISLATORS THAT ARE LONGER, THAT HAVE ADEQUATE STAFF, AND THAT ARE PAID, THEY ARE ABLE TO FOCUS, AND PRODUCE BETTER POLICY.

THE SESSIONS ARE ACTUALLY MORE DELIBERATIVE RATHER THAN JUST, YOU KNOW, SLOGANS AND THE OUTCOMES ARE BETTER, AND THE POWER OF THE LEGISLATURE IS INCREASED.

>>LORENE: AND THE RESPECT WITH WHICH IT'S HELD.

WELL LOOK, I DON'T WANT US TO RUN OUT OF TIME.

SO YOU MENTIONED STAFFING COULD BE DONE NOW, SO IN THE TERMS OF STEPS TOWARD MODERNIZATION, WHAT ELSE CAN BE DONE NOW, AND THEN WHAT ELSE IS IT GOING TO TAKE, LIKE YOU SAID A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT AND ALL THAT?

>>DEDE: WELL THERE IS A LOT GOING ON RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF LOOKING INTO THE COSTS AND WHAT LEGISLATORS THEMSELVES WANT TO DO TO BE BETTER LEGISLATORS.

THERE IS A STUDY THAT IS GOING ON THIS SUMMER AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO.

THE BUREAU OF BUSINESS AND ECONOMIC RESEARCH IS DOING A STUDY OF SALARY, STAFF AND THE LENGTH OF SESSIONS.

IT HAS COME AS A RESULT OF THE ACTIVITIES OF REPRESENTATIVE JOY GARRETT AND REPRESENTATIVE ANGELICA RUBIO FROM LAS CRUCES, WHO HAVE HAD MEMORIALS ABOUT THIS FOR SEVERAL YEARS.

AND THIS YEAR THEY FINALLY WERE ABLE TO ALLOCATE SOME MONEY TO DO THIS MAJOR STUDY THAT WILL, I THINK THE PRELIMINARY RECOMMENDATIONS WILL BE READY IN THE FALL AND A COMPLETE STUDY WILL BE DONE... >>LORENE: IN TIME FOR THE NEXT SESSION.

>>DEDE: YEAH, IN TIME FOR THE NEXT SESSION.

>>LORENE: WELL WE SHOULD DEFINITELY REVISIT IT THEN, TOO.

>>CLIFFORD: AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE NOW, IT COULD BE DONE TOMORROW, WE HAVE AN EXCELLENT WEBSITE, THE NEW MEXICO LEGISLATURE, IT'S AN EXCELLENT WEBSITE.

>>LORENE: OH, YES.

>>CLIFFORD: VERY INFORMATIVE, MAINTAINED BY THE LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL SERVICE, WHICH IS THE BILL DRAFTING AND RESEARCH ARM AND THEY RUN THIS BUILDING AND THEY REALLY ARE THE ADMINISTRATIVE ARM OF THE LEGISLATURE.

THEY HAVE AN EXCELLENT WEBSITE, BUT IT COULD BE BETTER, IT COULD BE IMPROVED.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT THERE THAT COULD BE ADDED SIMPLY, I THINK, TECHNOLOGICALLY, I AM NOT AN IT EXPERT BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE TOO COMPLICATED TO EXPAND THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC ABOUT THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS.

THINGS LIKE POSTING MOTIONS TO TABLE, OFTEN BILLS SEEM TO GET STUCK FOR REASONS THAT IT IS HARD FOR THE PUBLIC TO KNOW WHY AND IF THE PUBLIC KNEW THAT THERE WAS A MOTION TO TABLE THAT HAD BEEN VOTED ON AND PASSED, THEY WOULD KNOW WHY THAT BILL IS STILL IN COMMITTEE.

>>LORENE: THEY WOULD ALSO KNOW WHO MADE THAT MOTION.

>>CLIFFORD: EXACTLY, THEY WOULD KNOW WHO VOTED FOR IT AND THEY WOULD KNOW WHO COULD MOVE TO RECONSIDER.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>CLIFFORD: THE TABLING AND BRING IT BACK AND PERHAPS GET IT THROUGH THE PROCESS AND TO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE.

>>DEDE: WELL IT IS ALL ABOUT EDUCATING THE PUBLIC AND CIVICALLY ENGAGING THE PUBLIC TO MAKE THEM FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE THE POWER TO HAVE INPUT AND A SAY IN THE LAWS THAT ARE MADE IN THEIR NAME IN NEW MEXICO.

AND WE HAVE BEEN TAKING SOME BABY STEPS WITH, YOU KNOW, WEBCASTING OF FLOOR SESSIONS, HAVING A WEBSITE FOR THE LEGISLATURE THAT YOU CAN TRACK BILLS AND SO ON.

BUT THESE ARE BABY STEPS, I THINK THAT THE REAL BIGGIES OUT THERE THAT WOULD INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE LEGISLATURE AND THAT WOULD MAKE THE LEGISLATURE MORE ACCESSIBLE AND REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT NEW MEXICO REALLY LOOKS LIKE ARE THOSE THREE.

THE SALARIES, THE STAFFING AND THE LENGTH OF THE SESSION, THE LENGTH OF THE SESSION SHOULD NOT BE UNDERESTIMATED, WE HAVE ONE OF THE SHORTEST SESSIONS IN THE COUNTRY AGAIN.

WE ARE IN THE LAST QUADRANT.

>>CLIFFORD: YOU MAY WONDER HOW LONG SHOULD IT BE EXTENDED TO.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>CLIFFORD: AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, THERE IS NO MAGIC NUMBER, BUT WE OFTEN HEAR A SPONSOR SAY, "I WANTED THAT BILL TO PASS BUT WE RAN OUT OF TIME."

>>LORENE: YES.

>>CLIFFORD: AND WE KNOW BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN AROUND THIS PROCESS THAT THE BILLS THAT THE LEADERSHIP WANTS TO GET PASSED DO SOMEHOW MANAGE TO MAKE IT TO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE.

>>LORENE: SOMETIMES IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT.

>>CLIFFORD: YOU NEVER KNOW, MAGIC HAPPENS.

>>LORENE: POOF.

YES.

>>CLIFFORD: BUT, I THINK SENATOR FELDMAN IS RIGHT WHEN SHE SAYS, WE'D HAVE A MORE DELIBERATIVE PROCESS, WE WOULDN'T HAVE EXHAUSTED LEGISLATORS AND EXHAUSTED STAFF.

WE ARE WORKING ALL NIGHT TO TRY TO GET, TO HAVE A GOOD DISCUSSION OF THE ISSUES, IT'S BUILT INTO THE PROCESS.

>>DEDE: WHEN YOU HAVE A SHORT SESSION, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE SUBJECT TO THINGS LIKE FILIBUSTERS AND UNEXPECTED GLITCHES.

SLOWING THINGS DOWN IS THE NAME OF THE GAME AND FOR EVERY ONE BIG BILL THAT IS KILLED, THERE ARE HUNDREDS THAT ARE ALSO GOOD BILLS THAT ARE KILLED AS WELL AND THERE ARE STACKS OF BILLS LEFT ON THE DESK OF LEGISLATORS DURING THE LAST DAY AND THOSE BILLS JUST GO AWAY.

SOME PROPOSALS HAVE SAID, SOME OF THE SESSIONS SHOULD PICK THOSE BILLS UP RIGHT WHERE THEY LEFT OFF RATHER THAN STARTING FROM SCRATCH EACH SESSION.

>>LORENE: WE ARE JUST ABOUT OUT OF TIME, BUT I'M WONDERING IF PEOPLE ARE COMPELLED THEY WANT TO HELP MODERNIZE THE PROCESS, HOW CAN THEY CONTACT YOU, DO YOU HAVE AN EMAIL, IS THERE A PLACE WHERE THEY CAN WRITE AND SAY, "I WOULD LIKE TO PARTICIPATE, HOW CAN I HELP?"

>>DEDE: YEAH, COMMON CAUSE IS FOLLOWING THIS ISSUE AS ARE NEW MEXICO ETHICS WATCH.

PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY JUST GO TO MY WEBSITE, WWW.DEDEFELDMAN.COM AND CONTACT ME THROUGH THAT.

AND I WILL HELP PLUG THEM INTO ANY OF THE GROWING COALITIONS THAT ARE NOW WORKING ON THIS ISSUE.

>>CLIFFORD: I WOULD ADD TO THAT LIST THE NEW MEXICO LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS.

>>LORENE: OH, OF COURSE.

>>CLIFFORD: THEY ARE VERY INVOLVED.

THE VARIOUS ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS, SOME OF THE THESE GROUPS ARE INTERESTED BECAUSE THEY ARE TIRED OF SEEING THEIR BILLS DIE IN COMMITTEES WITHOUT EVEN GETTING A HEARING AND THEY THINK ONE WAY TO PERHAPS GET A FAIR HEARING FOR THEIR CAUSE IS THROUGH MODERNIZATION OF THE LEGISLATURE.

I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF VALIDITY IN THAT.

>>LORENE: AND I HATE TO USE THAT EXPRESSION, WE HATE SO MUCH DURING THE LEGISLATURE, BUT WE ARE OUT OF TIME.

SO I THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH.

FORMER SENATOR DEDE FELDMAN, AUTHOR.

>>DEDE: THANKS, LORENE.

>>LORENE: THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME WITH US.

AND CLIFF REES, YOUR WONDERFUL SENSE OF HISTORY AND OBSERVATION OF ALL THINGS THAT HAPPEN AT THE STATE CAPITOL.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR COMING AND HELPING US UNDERSTAND THINGS WE CAN DO TO MODERNIZE OUR WONDERFUL BELOVED LEGISLATIVE SYSTEM.

THANK YOU.

>>CLIFFORD: THANK YOU.

>>DEDE: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: I AM LORENE MILLS AND I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY FOR THIS VERY IMPORTANT SHOW ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM