>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in February of 2025, just a few weeks after Donald Trump had returned to the White House.

Andrew and Tristan Tate thought they had an opening to regain their freedom.

The Tates were on house arrest in Romania facing allegations of sex trafficking.

Women in three countries.

Now the Tates have millions of online followers, mostly young men who listen to the Tates describe how to treat women.

Andrew, for example, says that women are the root of all societal problems and must be kept out of power.

He says women should be subservient to men, and if they object, men have the right to become violent.

So what happened next?

Here's how ProPublica reported the story last year.

Quote, online influencer Andrew Tate, a self-described misogynist who has millions of young male followers, was facing allegations of sex trafficking women when he and his brother left their home in Romania to visit the United States.

The Tates will be free.

Trump is the president.

The good old days are back.

Tate posted on X before the trip in February of 2025, one of many times he has sung the president's praises to his fans.

But when the Tate brothers arrived by private plane in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, they immediately found themselves in the crosshairs of law enforcement once more.

As Customs and Border Protection officials seized their electronic devices.

But this time, they had a powerful ally come to their aid.

Behind the scenes, the White House intervened on their behalf.

Interviews and records reviewed by ProPublica show.

A White House official told senior Department of Homeland Security officials to return the devices to the brothers several days after they were seized.

The official who delivered the message, Paul Ingrassia, was a lawyer who previously represented the Tate brothers before joining the Trump White House.

End quote.

Within days, the Tate brothers were attending UFC fights and posting new videos.

They partied with Nick Fuentes and a 20 year old male influencer known as Clavicular.

They announced that, make no mistake, they were back.

Not all young men follow.

And like the Tate brothers, of course, but they are clearly a symptom of a changing culture.

And this hour we welcome back to the program a man who has made it his mission to work on male culture, discussing the meaning of masculinity, the threat of violence, the ways to reach men through the noise.

Steve Peacock is a 1988 graduate of McQuaid Jesuit.

He's been on Connections to tell his story as a sexual abuse survivor, and this weekend he's returning to Rochester, leading an event focused on healthy relationships and respect.

And he has plenty to say about what masculinity means.

He's been working with schools and fortune 500 companies across the country.

Today, we welcome back to the program Steve Peacock, a child sexual abuse survivor, prevention advocate, board member and speaker for I have the right to and vice president of strategic growth for Edelman Financial Engines.

Steve, welcome.

Nice to have you back.

>> Great.

Thank you so much for having me, Evan.

I really look forward to this.

really important discussion.

>> No doubt about it.

And welcome in studio.

Adam Baber is Director of Service and Justice at McQuaid Jesuit High School.

Welcome to you, sir.

>> Thanks for having us.

>> And a couple of students with us here.

James Hay is a senior at McQuaid Jesuit High School.

James, welcome.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

And Eric Guset is a junior at McQuaid.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here.

>> My pleasure.

>> And briefly, Adam, why don't you tell folks what your role is as Director of Service and Justice at McQuaid?

>> Sure.

So at McQuaid Jesuit, we have expectations for all of our students to volunteer in the community.

So I oversee the offerings for students like James and Eric to to fulfill those expectations, but also learn about themselves and learn about the larger community in the process.

>> And certainly, I want to say to the students to, to the listeners, this is not meant to be a political hour.

I get sort of politics and kind of sort of infringes upon just about everything these days.

I get that.

But we do want to talk about where the culture is going.

It's not just about the Tate brothers or the Paul Brothers or anything else this hour.

It's not about just one thing.

But in general.

Let me start with Steve and ask why you're coming back to do this event at all this weekend.

Why do you think the need is there right now?

Steve.

>> Great.

Thank you Evan.

And you did foreshadow a little bit that I do have plenty to say, so I'd love to just start with framing it from from my perspective as a 55 year old white male living just north of Boston, Massachusetts, and it's really a conversation about the ongoing conversation about what is masculinity and how various groups try to either gain control of the narrative or try to push back.

But at the end of the day, it's an opportunity to redefine masculinity as the global changes and certainly the economic changes here in our country really do require a new framing of what it means to be a man.

And to me, that's changed dramatically over my lifetime.

In many ways, traditional masculinity failed me, failed my father, and failed our family of six boys and one girl, and in turn, I failed others.

And I failed myself.

And for that, I'm extremely sorry.

Only I didn't recognize the failure until really recently.

I thought I was fine, I wore a mask, I hid the fact that I was sexually abused.

As you mentioned, as an 11 year old.

and I steeled myself against intimate relationships, really focusing on what I could get.

Only giving to receive.

And I used humor and distraction to really shield myself from emotional availability.

And then when people got too close anger, the two emotions that, that show up quite a bit in men of all generations many levels.

This did work.

I more, more morphed from a weird, gangly, awkward kid into a high school athlete at McQuaid, a class clown, and ultimately a gifted student, all leading me to Georgetown, where I doubled down on drinking inappropriate joking, often degrading women, and harming myself and others.

I did, and I said bad things, which reinforced a deep seated belief in me that I was a bad person at my core, and for most of my early career, I continued degrading women, mostly out of earshot, really for the benefit of proving my standing with other men in my career.

And I was rewarded.

I was no longer that awkward kid.

I was successful in business, rising in the ranks of the financial services industry, one joke at a time.

That is, until a few things happened.

The first was a meeting a college professor of social justice.

He helped me tear down my long held prejudice and bigotry, though really didn't make a dent in my objectification and demeaning of women.

The second was participating in the D.C.

Women's March in January of 2017.

So where you talked a little bit about one experience from the tape brothers, this was to some extent in response, but to some extent in response to decades long degradation.

And it was where millions of women probably 90% of the people I saw down on the mall were women.

10% were men.

We need more of that.

I want to be clear.

And they said loudly, unequivocally, this behavior is not okay.

It's harmful.

And up until that point in my life, I never really thought about how my own actions would make someone feel.

I only thought of myself and what I thought they would feel, which conveniently, I told myself was the same thing as me.

The most recent was a meeting with Alex, Brown, co-founder of I Have the Right to be an online LinkedIn search completely accidentally.

For the first time, I was able to see and feel a direct link between the assault on women in this case is amazing, courageous and inspirational.

Daughter Jessie, and the abuse that I suffered at the hands of a much older male neighbor.

Mercifully, those experiences helped me in ways decades of therapy could not.

In a word, I discovered empathy, which allowed me to see the harmful impact of my misogyny.

I was a contributor.

I was a contributor to the world that motivated millions of women to march in DC in the first place, to the suppression of women's rights.

To this and this one kills me as a survivor, to the sexual violence which led to the Me movement and the Epstein sex trafficking.

And secondly, I gained empathy for myself.

I didn't choose to teach myself not to feel, not to cry, to inflate myself over others, to deny intimacy and avoid deep connection.

Nor, importantly, I didn't choose the abuse that was done to me.

That breakthrough permitted me to stop blaming and shaming myself for the actions of a groomer, and I haven't looked back since then.

And while it may seem like a distant past, when I grew up in Rochester 40 years ago, so many of those themes, as you noted at the beginning of the show, persist to this present day for men, stoicism, limited emotional depth, isolation, lack of connection, hate, and seeking belonging at the expense of inclusion, acceptance, and love.

This year, I was proud to participate in Movember movement to raise awareness for Men's Health, specifically men's mental health, and the stats are sobering.

For every age, 40% of all men showed depressive symptoms, 44 thought about suicide in the past two weeks, and 65% of 18 to 23 year olds said, no one really knows me well and have the least optimism for the future and the lowest levels of support.

Understandably and unavoidably, this shows up in the workplace.

For example, the Bechtel Foundation is committed $7 million to a partnership with the American suicide.

Society for Prevention of Suicide, and it is now more likely for construction worker to die by suicide than a work related accident.

Just think about that.

The dangerous work they do and it's alone where they it's just alone.

They die in tragedy.

And overwhelmingly that's impacting middle aged men.

And while I struggle with resistance versus care for the loudest offenders, if not for a series of unfortunate encounters, I could have been one of those men.

I was one of those men.

We need to find ways to spread awareness like your show.

So thank you for continuing to bring this topic forward.

That awareness leads to empathy, as it did for me and so many others that I've encountered in the survivor community.

It fuels courage and forges leaders.

And to be clear, we also need accountability and justice.

And to that end, I am so thrilled today to be joined by Adam of McQuaid Jesuit, as well as Eric and James, and return to my high school this weekend with.

I have the right to to continue our ongoing dialog to help address these issues for the benefit of all of us men, women, and those not gender conforming.

We are all better when masculinity lifts us up rather than tears us down.

>> So let me ask you, Steve, first about this, and then I'm curious to get the guys in studio, especially the students here, their take on some of what's in the culture now.

And they're not they're not asked to speak for all teenage boys.

They're speaking for themselves.

But I think it'll be a good window into some of what the conversations are.

Like I said at the outset, this isn't just about one person in the culture or one thing, but I have.

I've changed how I view certain parts of my responsibility on this program over the years.

Probably probably five years ago, I >> Of millions of people.

And if we're not aware of it that sort of that ecosystem sort of grows on its own.

So just as an example, I want to listen to one clip here.

So the Tate brothers get out last year.

They come to the United States and you know, they're boasting about how they're ascendant again, in the culture and they're on podcasts.

And Andrew gets asked about, you know, male violence and, and female subservience.

And he's talking about the right to be violent.

And I want to listen to this clip of Andrew Tate.

>> The problem with that is we're only one stage now from force, because typically you deceive.

Let's apply it to something everyone at home understands.

Let's apply it to our relationship, something everyone at home understands.

You're a man.

You're with a woman.

You're cheating on your woman.

You try and hide it.

At first you try and deceive.

Eventually you get caught and you just start telling her straight.

Yep, I'm cheating on you.

If she continues to be a problem and you're never going to break up, the only for.

The only step left from that is for you to continue doing it and use force.

That's when you start hitting her and being abusive.

>> I mean, I would never have played that clip before, but I want people to understand that is a very common kind of sentiment from him, and it's very popular.

What do you hear there, Steve?

>> Well I support your decision.

these are things and conversations and messages that have been promulgated for decades, for centuries.

So get it out so that people can hear it, hear it, and be as disgusted as I am.

What I hear at first is the construct of a relationship, like the construct of a loving relationship is to equal partners.

So the idea that, you know your default as a man is to a do whatever you want and then to try to hide it and lie as your first response.

And then you know, that doesn't work.

And in his words, you get caught, you know, instead of, I'm owning my responsibility, this is something I did.

And here's the reasons why to, if you can't get out of the relationship, which is just, it's just a strange concept.

So I'm not sure how that would not be possible.

And then for for the man, there are significant obstacles to women, particularly women who have been isolated and then preyed upon and then, you know, forced into the relationship or have a family or kids or a, an image.

So that's a certainly more difficult and then to resort to violence, like I I just want to leave you with this last thought and it's not you know, disconnected to me going back to McQuaid Jesuit High School tomorrow and I, I will also be clear about this.

I look at this from a, both a humanitarian perspective, which is my now default that we all have universal rights.

They are equal to everybody who is on this planet, not just in this country.

So that is my belief system, but if you are to purport to be a largely religious nation, whether that's Christian, Jewish, Islam or many of the other diverse languages that we have in this country I don't know of anyone that would suggest that the solution to an argument with an intimate partner is violence.

>> Yeah.

So let's turn in studio here.

So Adam Baber, director of service and Justice at McQuaid Jesuit High School.

First of all do you have a problem with me playing that clip?

I mean, like I wrestled with it.

What do you think?

>> Well, I think the sad reality is many have heard that clip.

And so it's probably not even the first time they're hearing it.

So I think I agree with Steve that we're at a point where you're not giving it more oxygen.

It already has plenty of oxygen.

>> Yeah it does.

It does.

What hits you when you hear something like that, realizing that the vast majority of followers for for that guy for Andrew Tate is young men, teens, 20s.

What hits you?

>> What hit me and what I wrote down is I was listening to it was the, the use of, of the possessive.

He says, your woman as if it's property, as if it's something that can be discarded or held captive.

I think, you know, as Steve was mentioning, this is about relationships.

It's about defining what a healthy relationship looks like.

And I go back to the, I go back to the, to the statistic that Steve shared initially I think it was 56, 57% of young men ages 18 to 23 don't feel like they're known well.

And so how, how do we model and guide young men whether they're in high school or older to, to understanding and valuing a truly equal loving relationship, as Steve mentioned.

>> Yeah.

Steve's point, I was thinking about that point listening to that clip because for the many people who follow the Tate brothers or pick any other online sort of their fellow travelers this has their rise has coincided with this rise in depression, suicidal ideation, which is worse than ever in younger men.

And this feeling that Steve talked about, this disconnection, this feeling that nobody knows me, nobody actually gets me.

So I, I it strikes me, Adam, that people are looking for community.

They're looking for someone to grab onto.

And maybe that is when you are feeling kind of lost.

Maybe you end up there.

But the vast majority of people following that kind of messaging are not very happy.

That's what the data says, right?

>> Absolutely.

And I think, and I think you're right, that the vast majority of, of, of people, and I think particularly in my experience as, as an educator over 20 years working with young men is they're looking for that community to and, you know, we have a, we're very proud of McQuaid Jesuit of our retreat program, which invites our, our, our students to go away, as you do on a retreat for a couple of days and nights and just spend time building relationships and being honest with one another.

And they don't have the reason it's so special is we don't provide those opportunities nearly often enough.

In, in, in regular life.

And I know we're going to get to this, but I think, you know, the rise of screens and the rise of, of so much of our life being mitigated by screens and lived online, which is not authentic relationship.

it carries a lot of the blame here.

>> Well, let me turn to this.

The students here, a senior James Hay from McQuaid is with us, a junior Eric Guset from McQuaid is with us.

James, I'll start with you.

Is are the Tate brothers popular among people your age?

>> I think sadly so.

I mean, obviously everything that's saying is disgusting, but.

>> Get real close to your mic.

Yep.

Go ahead.

That's right.

>> I'll repeat myself.

sadly I think yes, a lot of their rhetoric is kind of boasted and just kind of blatantly said among a lot of men our age and McQuaid, I think is certainly better.

But you still certainly hear it.

I mean, sadly, I think we're in a time where we've been brought into a new technology that just wasn't designed with people in mind.

I mean, algorithms on things like Instagram, TikTok are really any social media.

They aren't designed to try and bring about human community.

It's artificial.

Although bringing about is something that'll get clicks, something that will push, something that you might react to, to get them money, to get them some sort of gain.

And I think that's created something where the, the most outrageous people like Andrew Tate, like Clavicula, like all of the other people that are what's known as rage baiting people to try and get clicks.

It's where they are pushed forward instead of the reasonable voices in our communities.

And I think that's the real problem we're facing right now.

>> James, how do you how do you hear that clip from Andrew Tate that we played?

What goes through your mind?

Oh, I'm sorry.

Let's go to turn to Eric on that one.

Go ahead.

Eric.

>> I think it's just crazy that some people believe the things he's saying.

Like they're again, they're so obviously outrageous and misogynistic that you wouldn't even think that people believe it.

And I think the way I see it in the lens of McQuaid and schools in general, is that people deal with things like those with a lot of jokes.

So you hear it a lot around school.

I hear kids, like always making jokes about Andrew Tate.

People like that.

And sometimes some of those people are just making jokes.

They don't believe that.

But I think a lot of the time they're disguising like their belief as a joke.

So it seems more okay, because I guess if you say it as a joke, you can disguise it and it's not as inflammatory.

I want.

>> To probe that a little.

That's a really interesting point.

You know, it is not a new thing for people of any age, especially young people, to want to feel edgy, to feel like they're they're saying something that's not allowed to be said.

And so maybe Andrew Tate and his ilk are in that category that, well, you know, share in this clip, share in this meme quoting because it feels edgy.

It feels kind of like not allowed.

That's one thing, but it's another to actually agree to feel like, yeah, he's right when he says that men are the dominant species.

Women should be subservient.

Women shouldn't vote, women shouldn't hold power.

Women are the problem.

How do you differentiate between the edginess and the actual belief in that?

>> That's the thing.

You can't you can't really do that because you could be talking to someone that totally believes in that.

And such a polarizing opinion, but you could talk to someone else.

They say the same joke, but they're only joking.

They could have the totally opposite opinion.

So I think it's really difficult to like, really extrapolate what people are trying to say through their jokes.

And I think you like jokes themselves are dangerous in that way.

Like you got to speak more to the point rather than joking about it.

>> James, do you think that these kinds of influencers are as popular as they are, just because they are the forbidden fruit, the the edgy jokes, or because they're gaining purchase in their ideas about women and masculinity.

>> I mean, to a point, I think it's somewhat both.

I think certainly, especially at the start, it was more jokes.

I mean, obviously, like you said, kids want to be edgy.

That's not a new thing.

But I think as they gained that popularity from those jokes, certainly more people have started to kind of sign on to it.

I mean, you hear a lot more people fervently saying misogynistic things.

>> It's unironically not joking.

>> Oh, yes.

Completely unironically.

I've heard multiple people that I know not from McQuaid or anywhere, but that are genuinely trying to say now that women should not have the right to vote, which is incredibly worrying.

And I think the problem we're having is that we have these new edgy characters, but they're being brought into the mainstream.

I mean, when they're being involved with politics, when they're given pardons, that is a major problem because we have, you know, a major political base that probably half of the country votes for pushing forward this ideology and these people that are spreading this ideology that is so vile.

And I think that's one of the major issues, is they've been given so much funding, so much support to spread this hate and be able to convince people that they are right.

>> Do you feel any social pressure to sort of roll with those kind of jokes, or to kind of go in that direction?

>> I mean, certainly it's always there.

Everyone's always going to feel pressured.

I mean, if it's happening around you, you I personally never get involved with it.

I would never try and joke about something like that.

But I mean, if that's happening around me by people that I don't know, chances are I'm just going to stay quiet.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, you don't want to try and start a fight.

You don't want to try and start something.

so yeah, sadly, sometimes people, even me, feel the pressure to just stay quiet and say nothing and give no pushback, which, you know, I'm saddened to say that I have done that because I think we need to push back against this sort of rhetoric at every step, whether it's a joke, whether it's serious.

We need to ensure we are pushing back against this at every step.

>> Well, James, I assure you, you are not alone in that.

I mean, and that self-reflection is really interesting, but that idea of like, am I going to intervene right here and say that this isn't cool is really hard for everybody, let alone someone in, you know, in a school setting or in maybe a sport or in a locker room, that kind of thing.

Eric, do you feel any social pressure in that regard?

>> I think there is some sort of social pressure, but again, it's, it revolves around the people you hang around with.

And I think the really tough part with pushing back against this sort of point of view is if you go at someone, even for making a joke, they'll get mad at you.

They'll be like, oh, I'm just making a joke.

And I think that it's really hard to get someone to talk about their actual opinions, just because they also know it's very inflammatory.

So yeah.

>> Well, let me go back to Adam and Steve Adam Baber, director of service and justice at McQuaid Jesuit High School.

I know you're proud of these students.

I know you're I know you're proud of your student body.

What do you hear there in their descriptions of, of, of why this culture has kind of taken root?

>> I think it's a couple of reasons.

I think young people today and young men and young women are exposed to voices like the Tate brothers.

other figures much more frequently, much more.

explicitly than in the past.

And in the absence of, you know, any sort of intervention or, or positive influence counterbalancing that, I think it's very, it's very tempting, especially for young people as they're trying to figure out their identity and their relationships.

I think Eric really made an important point where one's peer group, the, the teammates, the classmates, the people who you sit at the lunch table with that has a really powerful impact for good or for bad.

And, you know, in my role as an educator, one of the, one of the things I try to do is to encourage new relationships.

you know, just actually, you know, Eric and James here, they're in different class classrooms at McQuaid.

I don't know if they, they knew each other very well at all before we started prepping to come on this program.

But before we started the just, just fist bumped each other.

I like it you know, an opportunity like this to have a conversation to learn about, a fellow student, a fellow young man in an authentic, genuine way.

We have to create those.

We have to create more of those opportunities.

>> All right.

So before I go back to Steve, here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to ask the two students about a few other sort of terms.

I'm very curious to get their take on some people also some terminology.

And then after our break, I'm going to have Steve kind of weigh in on what he's hearing from the students.

So first of all, James, what does the word masculinity mean to you?

>> Well, I think I have a bit of a different representation of it.

I know a lot of people these days, as it's always kind of been called is, you know, the ability to be strong, to lead, to take control.

Personally, I think masculinity still has some of those elements, but really it's more about using your strengths, using what you're good at to influence the world around you for good, to influence others, to improve their lives over yourself.

For example, whereas in, you know, in history, people have thought, oh, well, you need to be a big muscular guy to have strength to, you know, lead well, you can still have that.

Certainly.

I go to the gym every now and then.

I, like everyone, want to look good, but you don't need to try and have muscle to take control.

You can use it to use that strength for good to help others, to ensure that other people feel safe and not threatened, even if it's from yourself.

You need to ensure at all times that you are looking after those around you, because that's your response.

That's your responsibility as a man and as a woman to look after others.

>> So Eric, I regret that you have to follow that answer, but I'm going to ask you the same question because I thought that was really good.

What's masculinity to you?

>> yeah, I think James covered it pretty well, but I I think you can't take masculinity by itself.

You also have to talk about men and like everyone, you have to take everyone into account.

And again, there's this sense of equality in the past, masculinity has been a lot more dominant, but now, I mean, pretty much everyone agrees that equality is the way to go.

And while there is some sense, I think now in terms of like chivalry and a way men should like just go about doing things, I think, again the way James said it, I think that's how we should like go throughout our day and try to do things like that.

>> Yeah, I, I, what I don't hear is I don't hear these young men saying, well, now we're in an era where it doesn't have anything to do with strength.

It's the acknowledgment that strength can be used in different ways.

It can be used to destroy it.

It can be used to build, it can be used to harm, and it can be used to protect.

And that distinction is really, really interesting to hear from these guys.

So I really appreciate that.

Now just a few other quick ones here.

one of you mentioned Clavicular.

So who mentioned Clavicular.

Okay, who's Clavicular?

>> Well, I'm not an ardent follower of.

>> Okay.

I figured not, but.

>> Clavicular is an online persona who he does something known as looks maxing.

Yeah, I don't get all the use of terminology, but it's the world we live in.

>> It is the world.

>> We live.

he his ideas are essentially that men should try to look the best they possibly can.

But this is not just going to the gym.

This is the use of peptides or drugs, but also more outlandish methods such as face hammering or bone smashing, where you legitimately take a hammer and hit parts of your face to make it more defined.

>> I think the idea being your cheekbones would would heal higher, and there's some sort of ideal form of male beauty that he sees.

>> Yes.

>> And break your face to have it heal better.

>> Yes, that's the general idea.

But he also, from what I know, subscribes to the same sort of thing as the Tate Brothers, where you should try to be, in a twisted way, what they consider to be your best self.

They would consider it to be, you know, looking your best, being dominant, taking control.

Whereas I think most reasonable people would say looking fairly all right, but being yourself and being true to yourself and making sure you take care of others.

>> I think those are good definitions.

Eric looks maxing.

How often do you hear that term?

>> I don't hear that often.

>> Okay.

But you've heard, you've heard it.

>> I've definitely heard it.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

It's not just going to the gym, right?

>> No, it's doing whatever you can to look better.

>> It's doing meth to suppress your appetite so you don't gain weight.

I mean, like, that's an example, right?

Yeah.

It's wild.

and wild.

>> I think the way Clavicular is sponsoring it, I guess.

Is he saying that looks are the only thing they're the most important thing.

Nothing else matters.

And so that just makes you only care about your looks.

Nothing else about you, your personality, nothing about that matters.

And so I think that's the most dangerous part about it, other than the physical harm that you do to yourself.

>> He says that getting interested in politics or deep pursuits of knowledge is, in his words, gesturing, acting the fool.

okay.

and last last couple here Paul brothers, do you view the Paul brothers like you view the tape brothers generally.

>> Generally, yes.

I think, you know, I don't want to insult anyone, but I find them rather detestable.

Okay?

I mean, historically, you know, for those that know about them, they have not been in the best sort of thing even before this sort of generation of the tape brothers and everything, you know, they've been involved with scandals where, I mean, previously, it's insane that I have to say this, but I forgot which one.

But one of them was involved with going and filming in a Japanese forest that historically was used for suicides.

And I just don't think that these are the sorts of people that we should be listening to.

I mean, if someone has a history of that, clearly they're not a like, a well minded, a well-rounded person.

And I think it's the same thing with the Tape Brothers or Clavicular or Nick Fuentes or anyone in this sort of alt right figure figures that just seek to have self-gratification over everything else.

And try to push their own gain across that of everyone else's.

>> Okay.

And that was the last one.

I'll just do this real quick with Eric.

Does Fuentes have any purchase among people your age?

Nick Fuentes.

>> I think he he does a lot.

And it's I think the reason he does is some things he says some people like believe or they're less inflammatory.

But then in something else he says, it's just something completely disgusting.

And so you can look at this one side of him and see it as good or as something you agree with.

But then there's also this other side that you need to look at and know that's also part of him.

And that's what makes his entire like following pretty disgusting.

>> Okay.

really interesting stuff from James and Eric who are one's a senior one's a junior at McQuaid.

Guys, briefly, are there any, I mean, like we've been talking about this stuff that you kind of find detestable.

Are there figures out there that you're like, now that dude, like, that's the good stuff.

a podcaster, an influencer, somebody out there?

Or do you, are you not really sort of in those online spaces as well?

Let me start here.

Go ahead.

>> Personally you know, I, it's just the way I roll.

I look at a lot of things through politics.

So I think some of you know, people, the people I would describe as a good man that I've seen in politics would be well, starting with America would be, you know, Zohran Mamdani the recent elect in New York.

He's constantly campaigned for other people's rights.

He's looked after others.

He sought to bring equality over separation.

Another example would be Bernie Sanders looking out for, you know, healthcare pushes for healthcare, for all you know, looking out for people that aren't themselves, but as well, going back to my home country of Australia, I think currently we're seeing a push rightwards.

But, you know, with the incumbent leader, Anthony Albanese, you know, he's done pushes to try and, you know, go to women's rights matches and ensure that all people have the exact same equal rights that they need to live a good life and have, you know, as the old Australian saying goes, a fair go.

>> Eric, anything you add there?

>> I'm not really aware of that many like political figures, but I think just looking at our own social lives, you can find a bunch of people that I look up to, for example Mr.

Peacock and Mr.

Baber, they, you know, they're bringing awareness to this type of stuff.

And I think that's something we all should look at.

so yeah, I think just looking at your own personal life, there's a lot of people that really embody good masculinity.

I guess.

>> After our only break of the hour, I want to hear Steve Peacock's take on what he's just heard.

Steve is coming back to McQuaid.

He's a 1988 graduate, and he works across the country with schools with fortune 500 companies talking about issues related to masculinity, physical abuse, respect, healthy relationships, and more.

And he's in town this weekend for an event.

So he's going to kind of weigh in on some of these themes.

In studio.

You just heard James Hay and Eric Guset who attend McQuaid Jesuit High School and Adam Baber is McQuaid director of service and Justice.

We'll come right back on Connections.

Coming up in our second hour, it's the WXXI News Friday roundup, and we're going to sit down with our colleagues from WXXI News talk about some of the hot stories of the week.

Brian Sharp will join us.

Samuel King joining us from Albany, talking about the state budget and my colleagues from The Route and from classical 91 five, talking about Timothée Chalamet recent comments.

He said that nobody cares about opera and ballet and some arts are more important than others.

We'll talk about it next hour.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Excellus Blue Cross Blue Shield, providing members with options for in-person and virtual care, creating ways to connect to care when and where it's needed.

Learn more at excellus.

PBS.org dot and Mary Cariola, center supporting residents to become active members of the community.

From developing life skills to gaining independence, Mary Cariola, center Transforming lives of people with disabilities.

More online at.

Mary Cariola.

>> Org.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

So Steve Peacock.

You've been listening to the students and I. I want to give you some space to kind of talk about a number of things, but I want to start with this.

You heard James, for example, say that when he hears the kind of really kind of misogynistic talk that might bubble up or people kind of talking about some of the more course influencers, it's not easy to be the person who jumps in and is like, hey, like, let's not do that.

Or like, that's not cool or like, I've got an issue with that because there's a ton of pressure.

Often you're the only one in a group to do that.

And I don't blame James.

I've been that person.

I've been that person at family events.

I mean, like somebody probably everybody can relate to the idea that they wish they would have said something at some point and maybe just kind of bit their tongue because it's tough.

What do you think can be done?

I mean, obviously sometimes, as James is pointing out, sometimes you do need to intervene and try to cut this stuff off or confront it directly.

Sometimes that doesn't work.

So what can work?

What is effective at starting to change this kind of culture?

Steve.

>> Yeah.

First of all, that was a great conversation.

really appreciate James and Eric joining the show and, and, and being so vulnerable and honest.

when I think of the question I think I first did it probably 52, 53 years old.

So that gives you some sense.

Like I said before, like I was that person that was making the, the comments.

So I also want to go back to what we're hearing from the influencers.

Yes, I think it's extreme and it's much more accessible, but it's always, it's always been there.

It's the classic locker room talk.

It's the, you know, when when we're together as boys, you know, it's a way for us to feel that belonging and that community.

but when I think of, you know, what we're trying to do and we'll be at McQuaid Jesuit High School tomorrow, feel free to join us.

There's a lot of techniques and strategies that we do talk about, like the five D's delay distract and other things, other techniques that you can use that if you're not safe in the moment, because safety is a very important component.

It's not the only component.

We've seen extremely brave people across this country do some really dangerous things.

the fact that they're dangerous now is shocking, but they are dangerous.

And, you know, that's the extreme version.

We're not all going to do that and we don't all need to do that.

but you know, in these, these situations, I think for me, you know, I'd also just say it starts with me.

and I don't mean.

Steve for me it does, Steve.

But for you, it's whoever you are, which is, you know, think about it.

Be intentional, have a strategy, look at the situation.

I was in a college group text that evolved into just horrific things, like not to too far afield of, of, of some of the things we heard earlier.

And it took me a while but as I said before, you know, learning about people's experiences, like the strongest people that I've known, you know, when we're talking about strength.

You know, Jesse Brown, Hillary Simon here in Massachusetts, who was groomed by a teacher, and now she's trying to get the laws changed.

Our board member, Leslie Morgan Steiner Chanel Miller who was sexually assaulted while asleep.

And the consequences for the perpetrator were wholly insufficient.

Monica Lewinsky, like, the list goes on and on.

You know, Simone, Simone Biles, the athlete who she was sexually assaulted and what she did, she had the strength to say, I'm not going to compete right now.

It is not good for my mental health.

That is such a great model.

I know a lot of people will say, no, you're out there.

It's a sport.

Just go do it.

No, people look to athletes for a lot of role modeling.

so let's redefine strength.

and make sure that we understand that the world is changing and the strength that comes from our muscles and our bodies, just a reality is, going to be replaced by machines, has been replaced by machines.

So to the question of what do you do?

Find your center, pick your moments, do not I, I, it's, you know, engaging in you know, debates on a lot of these things isn't always necessary.

It's just I didn't think that's funny.

You walk away, you can indicate later that that was maybe to a group of people who may also look uncomfortable because that's the other thing quiet.

And I think I've come to appreciate this more.

May not be acceptance, but it well can be interpreted as acceptance.

So that one, one person saying something, two people laughing, seven people not saying a word and one person walking away.

You, as the person who said that have permission, it's normalized.

Go ahead, go for it.

No one's going to stand in your way.

And eventually these ideas are going to sink in because, you know, I'll go back to that word that you used.

And I used belonging and community.

>> Well, and Steve, to.

>> Your.

>> To your point about silence, though, just briefly, because I want to squeeze in a couple of emails, but I think this point is one that you were making before the program, that silence is an example of what got.

I think some of the.

The U.S.. men's hockey players and sort of trouble because, you know, they win the gold medal.

They're on the phone with the president.

Kash Patel is their shotgun and beers.

And the president makes a joke about like, hey, you guys are going to come to the state of the Union.

No, I'm sorry.

I got to tell you, I'm going to have to invite the women.

They all get in real trouble if I don't.

As if like, they're like a lesser thing.

And there was one of the guys on the team, like, like he cheered and he was like, you know, hey, two for two.

And, but most of the guys kind of uncomfortably laughed or stayed silent.

And that's the president of the United States.

So I understand why some people were very disappointed in that.

I also understand the pressure of the moment and what I hear you saying, Steve, is like, we're human.

James talked about it.

I've talked about it like we've all been human, but it's it's challenging yourself in that moment to see if you can maybe push beyond that discomfort.

It's not I know it's not easy.

So anything you briefly want to add there, Steve.

>> I go back to what I said about the Women's March and the continued advances of the Women's March in that year in year out.

You know, there's a big difference between intent and harm.

So like I said, my, my, I go back to what I said in my opening remarks, I would say things with the intent for people to think I was funny, for people to like me, men, women, anyone.

Because I justified that in my own mind as, as, as, as a joke.

What I never stopped to consider is the harm.

So, you know, that is a that's a key part of this, that conversation as well.

And we've had a lot of debate within the organization just to be 100% transparent.

You know, they're hockey players.

Yes.

But that's also their job.

you know, and one of our team mentioned the fact that look, look, you know, in the NFL and whether you're kneeling or not, kneeling could cost you $1 million.

So, you know, the price of speaking up or not saying anything or laughing can be significant.

I would just say that, again, go back to pick your moments, be intentional, aware of not only the environments you're in, but what that says.

Because not only was that the president of the United States, that's somebody who is at the very least connected to Jeffrey Epstein, but also has been convicted of horrible crimes.

So, you know, there is the awareness that that women are saying, what was me too all about?

Why did we why did we do it?

Aren't you listening again?

We're, we're, we're less than.

It's not right.

So it's it's it's tricky.

These are hard things to do, but you know, as Alex says all the time, it's about practice.

You don't go out on a ball field without, you know, taking some passes or shots.

You don't go in to take a test without preparing.

And that's what we try to do with these summits, which I have the right to, to be, perfectly candid, it's about putting people in a room, giving them information, making them aware so they have that, and then they can make their choices, but also giving them an opportunity to, you know, I've asked kids, you know, when's the first time you were told not to cry?

You know, one one student in one of these sessions stood up and, and said, my, my, my father told me that after I told him that I was assaulted I was heartbroken.

>> Yeah.

Wow.

>> Well, just briefly here a couple of emails from different perspectives here.

Sarah writes in to say, Evan, the young man on the show are giving me hope.

But make no mistake, women hear what these male influencers, like the Tate brothers are saying.

There's a reason that teens aren't dating as much, and boys and men are more isolated.

They are scaring us.

That's from Sarah.

Charles says this.

He says we do not need a new definition of masculinity.

What we need is for certain people political parties, media outlets, et cetera.

to stop framing toxic behavior as toxic masculinity.

What we need is an end to the narrative that, if you like, traditionally masculine pursuits, or you are someone who is capable of using aggression and strength to defend others as a duty in a disciplined manner, then you are a fundamentally bad person who's out of step with modernity.

What we need is to stop telling young men that they shouldn't want to be men.

Masculinity is not a problem.

It is a responsibility.

That's from Charles Adam Baber.

What do you make of Charles's email?

There?

>> I find, frankly, a lot to agree with with his perspective.

I think James was making this point as well.

You know, a traditional you know, McQuaid Jesuit were the Knights, right.

And the Knights are historic carriers of the tradition of chivalry in the, in the best sense.

Right.

And we talk about that at McQuaid and what it means to be a knight be someone who has the strength to do good, as James said, to defend the vulnerable.

and so I think that is laudable and that is absolutely a part of masculinity and needs to continue to be that.

I don't think it's the sole definition of masculinity.

>> Charles.

Thanks for the email.

Sarah.

Thanks for the email.

And Adam, I got a note from someone asking if the event this weekend is open to the public.

What's coming up tomorrow?

>> Yeah.

So McQuaid and I have the right to which Alex mentioned.

Excuse me, Steve mentioned we're really proud to be hosting an all day event tomorrow at our campus in Brighton.

information is at McQuaid dot LaVon Bracy Davis.

It is open to it is absolutely open to the public.

The programming is is really intended for high school students.

And we have a parent track, but educators and interested community members are more than welcome to register and attend.

and that's tomorrow, 9 to 330 at McQuaid.

>> We'll put a link in our show notes as well.

If you want to find that listeners.

Steve Peacock you're going to hear the music.

So tell people where they can learn more about the work that you are doing online.

>> Absolutely.

I have the right to.org and just to let you know, I formed great friendships at McQuaid.

I love man, I am a man.

but when masculinity leads to harm, that's when it's gone way, way too far.

There's too much good we can do.

And just on the point of chivalry, I think it's important, but we should be that for everybody.

Because if you're just holding the door open for women and then elevator door open for women, and then closing the boardroom door, it's not really advancing the goals.

And lastly, thank you, Adam, for joining Eric and James.

And couldn't also get away without you.

>> Got 10 seconds do it fast, Steve.

>> Gratitude to you, Kevin, and happy birthday.

>> To.

>> My best friend in Rochester, Jim Crow, and hope to see you guys all tomorrow at McQuaid.

>> Thanks, Steve.

Thanks, everybody.

More coming up here.

>> This program is a production of WXXI Public Radio.

The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of this station.

Its staff, management or underwriters.

The broadcast is meant for the private use of our audience.

Any rebroadcast or use in another medium without expressed written consent of WXXI is strictly prohibited.

Connections with Evan Dawson is available as a podcast.

Just click on the Connections link at wxxinews.org.