(lively music) (lively music continues) - The Trump administration has rescinded $1.1 billion in federal funding to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the organization that distributes money to PBS, and National Public Radio.

And tonight we're looking at how this affects our local TV and radio stations.

We'll talk radio in a minute, but first, Jenn Gordon, the president, and CEO of WTVP-PBS joins us now.

Good to see you.

- Well, it's good to see you too, Mark.

- I'll tell you, it's been an interesting few weeks since this became official.

Can you tell us kind of what's going on here at the station and are there any changes immediately people might see?

- Yeah, well, the first thing that we really wanna underscore with the community today is that WTVP is not going anywhere.

When we look at the national landscape of how the rescission package and the passage of that is affecting the PBS system, it is significant.

So we have 330 PBS stations across the country, and those stations can vary in size and how they're licensed.

We've got state stations, we have university license stations, and then we have community stations, like ours here.

For some stations, this has an immediate and drastic and very, very dire impact on those stations.

So, you know, I've been talking with some of my colleagues across the system, and they are having those very difficult conversations of, "Can we keep the lights on?

How long can we stay operational?"

We also have some systems or some stations that have been dually impacted if they've also lost state funding in addition to the federal funding.

So some stations are looking at not a 15% or a 20% impact, or like we have, in our instance, a 30% impact, but they're looking at a 50% impact, which is very, very, very difficult to overcome.

So the first thing that I think to underscore with our community is that WTVP is positioned uniquely, remarkably well to navigate this next road ahead of us.

And certainly it's a mountain to climb, and it's one that we're gonna need the community's support to do.

But I am 100% confident that we are well positioned for this moment to find a way forward to be here for the next 50 years.

- I think people might be wondering why we're in a better position than a lot of stations, especially, you know, you look at those stations in Chicago and St. Louis, they're having cuts that are maybe 10%-ish and they obviously have bigger budgets.

But why is the 30% cut not a death sentence for WTVP?

- Yeah, and that's a good way to word it 'cause it's not a death sentence, it's a hard cut, right?

But we've got a healthy endowment, which in moments like these, you have to have an endowment to give you that runway.

Most of the community is familiar with our story that over, you know, the last 18 months we were working so hard to rebuild trust with the CPB, which feels a little ironic now because we got that trust rebuilt, and now the CPB is in effect dissolving, at least temporarily.

But we were able to get two years worth of fiscal funding, fiscal year '24 and fiscal year '25 in our bank account mid-May.

So I mean, really like the best possible timing that could have happened for that.

That was two years' worth of federal funding.

So that really enabled us to replenish that endowment, that reserve fund that we have for moments like this and build up that ramp that we needed to have to get through, you know, this year.

That's essential.

It's crucial that we have that.

You know, the second piece is, over the last 18 months, we've worked really hard to streamline things and to make sure that we are running kind of a lean, mean machine.

And I think, you know, just strong fiscal practices, they really serve you well in moments like this.

So that's another contributing factor as well.

And then the third factor is, which we'll go into in a little bit, is the board of directors and, you know, leadership.

We've got, I think, a very compelling strategy moving forward that will keep us moving forward well with the community support.

- How important is it in terms of what we do here locally, this show, for instance?

- [Jenn] Yes.

- Because some people think about PBS, what pops into your head?

"Sesame Street."

- Yeah.

- And some other programs.

But all of the programming we do locally, in your opinion, how important is that to the success of our station?

- It's huge.

This is the unique identifier of WTVP when we look at our local programs.

So every local PBS station, it's dual purpose.

We're distributing the national high-quality content, the educational programs, the "Sesame Streets," the "Wild Kratts," the "NOVAs," the, you know, great performances, all of those.

And those are huge.

We are so grateful for that.

And I do wanna underscore, PBS has given us all confidence that those programs are not going away.

So nothing is going to immediately impact our regular national lineup.

But then when we zoom in closer on the local programs that we produce, like "At Issue," you know, I did a quick recall of just to date in the month of July, and we've had 13 highly produced stories told that are connecting our communities with Honor Flight.

You did this fantastic interview on the Honor Flight, which was great.

You know, Emiquon another "At Issue" show, but we've also featured the ballet.

We featured local entrepreneurs, and so many more as we look at that lineup, a local drum maker who makes drums in Lacon, Illinois.

So that is something that only a public broadcasting station that is community funded can do to shine a light on and to elevate the stories that really, really speak to the local culture that we have right here.

- One of the things, I'm on social media way too much, but one of the things I've seen from people who have commented on this issue, and I don't think they're PBS viewers anyway, but they say, "Well, why can't they just sell advertising like the other stations?"

- [Jenn] Yes.

- Explain that and why we don't.

- Yes, so when this mechanism was created back in the beginning of the 1960s, right?

And this had to do hand in hand with the FCC.

So we are set up to be an institution that is commercial free.

That is part of the DNA of every public broadcasting station.

And uniquely at this moment, we've lost the federal funding, but we are still bound by the FCC rules, which prohibits us from showing commercials.

Now, I would say that's one of the reasons why everyone should watch, you know, WTVP because even the spaces in between our programs, hyper educational, hyper local, and it's something that makes us special.

And I love that I can watch WTVP with my family and not be inundated with ads and with commercials and with ideas that are trying to influence me to buy something.

- Some of the commercials, especially on cable, I would say are PG 13.

- Right?

- I mean, it's crazy.

- Right.

(Jenn chuckling) - Well, tell us a little bit about what's going on now because I know that you and the board are being proactive in this situation in terms of explaining to people what's going on and what the consequences could potentially be of all this.

Where do we go from here?

What's happening at WTVP?

- Yes, well, if anyone wants a even deeper dive than this conversation that we're having today, they can go to the website and watch the "WTVP Now" episode that John Whelan and I recorded.

That is a little bit of a deeper dive as well.

We also hosted a community meetup last week where we invited the community in to answer questions because we know that there's gonna be a lot of questions, but we're really, really excited about the "We Believe in WTVP" campaign.

We've been a part of this community for over 50 years, which is just astounding.

And every single time there's been a challenge, the community has met us.

The "We Believe in WTVP" campaign is designed to encourage folks who watch our channel, but have not yet taken the step to become a member to become a member.

Now is the time we want everyone to become members.

And then secondly, for people who do give to consider doubling their membership to... You know, so if you give $5 a month, consider giving 10.

We have a wonderful matching grant opportunity for this.

So the board has secured a $300,000 matching grant challenge.

So for anyone who gives above and beyond what they gave last year, that will be matched up to $300,000, which is phenomenal.

And I am so, again, very proud of this board of directors and how they are leaning into this moment.

There's a second grant matching opportunity that they've also secured, which is just designed to get past board members and current board members also to raise funds in this moment.

So there's a $200,000 matching grant opportunity for past board members and current board members as well.

So if you do the quick math, that's gonna get us to where we need to be.

You know, we need to raise about a million dollars to fill the gap, and that will get us there.

But I think this is just gonna be an extraordinary moment for our community to come and meet us where we are.

- I know before the vote, you and the station were encouraging people to call their senators, their representatives, things like that.

Is there anything that you would like people to do now, even though this has already passed?

I mean, there is a chance the money could come back.

- There is a chance, and I think, you know, the American people spoke.

Three million messages were sent to Congress.

And I think you could make a case that... You know, I mean, Congress acted, it was a very slim vote, right?

This package passed by a very, very slim margin.

So I think it is always worthwhile for people to continue to reach out and say, "Hey, please, we wanna see federal funding come back."

Because of the situation we're in today, we can't necessarily count on that from a planning purpose.

So we're asking people first and foremost to consider increasing their donation to the station.

Help us make that match happen that we have on the table.

And, you know, talk it up with your friends, be influencers for WTVP and, you know, have watch parties at your house.

There's so many great programs that I think a lot of our community, they haven't plugged into, they haven't watched.

We're just asking everyone to lean in and rediscover WTVP in this moment.

- Well, one of the cool things about being a member too, might as well plug that, we'll take your money, but you get something in return.

Let's talk about what members get when they donate.

- Yes, it's really wonderful.

So we have our program guide, which comes out every month, and that's mailed to you if you are a member.

And then also Passport, which Passport is, it's like a treasure trove of all of your favorite episodes that have ever aired on WTVP.

So now, if you just download the PBS app, you can watch a lot of programs.

But, for instance, if you wanna binge watch something, which I know a lot of people like to do these days, say you like to watch "All Creatures Great and Small," you can binge watch the entire season if you're a Passport or I should say the entire series if you're a Passport member.

And likewise with many PBS programs.

So even the other day, I was looking up Julia Child because she was such a huge iconic PBS star, and sure enough, if you have Passport, you can watch, you know, all of these archived episodes of Julia's cooking show.

So it's a lot of fun.

And when I think about the programs that we show, it's almost like a museum or an encyclopedia of like, just brilliant content.

I tell everyone, it's the solution to scrolling.

You know, if you have Passport up on your phone or on your television, you're not gonna be scrolling.

You're just gonna be engaging with really good content.

- Before we let you go, how can people find out more about our campaign and what's going on at WTVP?

- Oh my goodness, it's so easy.

You can just go to wtvp.org.

There's a big banner right there, and click through to the "We Believe in WTVP" campaign.

- All right, will do.

Jenn Gordon, CEO and president of WTVP, thanks for spending some time with us.

- Thank you, Mark.

- All right.

We've heard about the TV side, now we wanna talk radio.

The executive director and general manager of radio stations WCBU in Peoria and WGLT in Normal, R.C.

McBride, joins us now.

Thanks for coming in.

- Thanks for handing me, Mark.

- Well, you're a journalist.

I mean, once a journalist, always a journalist, you know, being in this business.

Now you're in the management role.

What has this been like for the radio stations over the last few weeks with this news?

- Well, as you're aware, it's not as though this was a surprise or a shock.

We've seen this coming for a while.

We put up the good fight.

It was very, very close.

In a strange way, it's almost a relief to have some clarity, but obviously, this is a substantial change.

Public media has been supported for nearly 60 years, so that's disappointing.

- People talk nationally about MPR and that's kind of the target here.

But let's talk about more just local news.

Tell us about the kind of content that you guys are pumping out with both stations and how this could potentially affect that.

- Yeah, and again, you're aware of this too.

I mean, the state of Illinois has lost something like 90% of its journalism jobs over the last 20 years.

And I'm someone who has been a big believer that public media, and that includes public television, has both an opportunity and a responsibility to do whatever it can to fill that gap.

And I think we've been doing that.

Our newsroom has grown at both stations over the last several years.

That was an emphasis, and the focus really is on local news and not just government or school board coverage.

That's a big part of it.

But also, you know, covering the arts, sports feature stories, telling stories that shine a light on people who are, you know, they don't have a title, they don't have an elected role, but they're just trying to make a difference in their communities.

So that has been our focus.

- And even with the smaller staff, I know you guys have been branching out.

A few months ago, we talked about the documentary that WGLT did about homelessness in Bloomington-Normal, and it was video and it was well done by your employees.

So it seems like, you know, even with restrictions, you guys are trying to branch out and cover all the bases.

- Yeah, and by the way, I really wanna thank WTVP for airing the documentary.

And it's great to see that we have a good partnership.

Our missions are so aligned, and to a degree, we're kind of in it together, and we're trying to serve our communities in very similar ways.

So thank you for that.

Our greatest growth has been on our website.

I mean, it probably won't surprise you to hear that the website audience dwarfs our listenership.

And that's okay.

And a lot of that is us writing, for lack of a better term, newspaper style, longer-form pieces that people are reading.

But we've done quite a bit over the last year with our short-form videos, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube Reels.

You know, I'm not the target for most of that, but that audience is finding us there.

- When we talk about the cost cutting that's been happening, looks like roughly 15% of WCBU's budget comes from the government, and Bloomington-Normal about 10%.

So how do you make up that money?

I know I'm sure that's keeping you up at night, but what do you think?

- You know, our communities have always supported us and I believe in my heart they will continue to do so.

But that's also a very big ask, particularly in an era where there are a lot of locally focused not-for-profits that are doing excellent work and also need help.

And I do have some concerns that, you know, our contributors might get, you know, split up so many ways and there's so many ways that folks can slice that pie.

But we have had a little attrition, and I think some folks perhaps saw the writing on the wall with Corporation for Public Broadcasting being defunded.

So we are in a position where we are just not gonna fill the open positions we have.

But that is, if you combine the two stations, that's about 1/3 of our staff.

- Wow.

Well, we know as far as TV and radio, commercial stations aren't going gangbusters either.

They're facing some of the same financial issues, not with the government.

But when it comes, let's say if you do have to make types of cuts, do you look at maybe your national programming first before local?

- I don't know how much more there is to cut there.

And again, you know, I'm a big believer in NPR just as I am a big believer in PBS, but, you know, there are certain things that fans expect, right?

So I don't know that we could do a whole lot there.

That said, our local people are our number one priority.

- When we look at these budgets, we said 10 to 15% of the money's coming from the government.

Where does the other portion of that money come from?

- So it varies a little bit by station, but both stations are majority community supported.

So whether that's individual donors who step up as best they can, whether that's corporate or business underwriting, other grants, we've tried to be active in that space.

And in the case of WGLT, Illinois State also supports.

- What have you heard from your listeners about this situation?

Because we both know that with TV and radio, people pick their favorite and they're pretty loyal.

So I know you've got a lot of loyal listeners out there.

What have you heard from them?

- Well, it's been very supportive and I think that has certainly helped with morale.

I mean, we're hearing all the time from folks, "Thanks for what you're doing.

We value your service."

We have seen an uptick in contributions.

So for the most part, people have been very, very supportive.

- Long term, how do you plan for the future with this?

I mean, there's a chance that that money could come back in the future or maybe not.

- I mean, there is a chance and I don't think we're ever going to stop exploring all of our options.

And I'm also somebody who believes that the more diversified our revenue is, the stronger we're going to be.

And we're seeing that now, right?

I mean, to lose 10 or 15% is a lot better.

It's not great, but it's a lot better than losing 60 or 70%, right?

- Yep.

- And, you know, unfortunately, there are some stations in the system, radio and television, that are losing much higher percentages of their budget.

So we will never stop exploring other ways.

As I say, we know our communities have been very supportive and there is a little bit of clarity now, at least for the next couple of years.

But I'm not going to deny the fact that our service will be less as a result of this.

- Well, things can always be worse.

I'm looking at some of these numbers.

And in Charleston, Illinois, home of Eastern Illinois University, they have a dual license.

So they have public radio and public TV.

They're gonna lose 80%.

And not only is that bad for the community, but that's also a teaching school.

- [R.C.]

Right.

- And it's hard to attract young journalists these days, but really hard i if they're looking at numbers like this and going, "Okay, am I gonna learn about TV in a plain old classroom?"

- Well, Ken Burns gave an interview on NPR's morning edition the day after the final vote last week.

And he said something, paraphrasing, Ken Burns is a lot smarter than I am, but he said, "Look, I," meaning Ken Burns, he's gonna be fine, right, you know?

He's established, he's got a career, people know who he is, he's not gonna have any difficulty finding funding to do his next project.

But he said what he worries about are the up-and-coming storytellers and filmmakers who now this is an avenue.

You know, Corporation for Public Broadcasting funding was a big part of how he got his start.

And the 100% applies to journalism.

There are fewer opportunities now as a result of this.

And we need journalists.

- I was talking to someone the other day and they said, "Well, you know, we've still got newspapers, we've got the commercial TV and radio stations."

And one of the things that I told him was, you know, for instance, WCBU does a great job of covering the city council.

And while it may not be the sexiest thing in the world, it's the most important thing.

- It's important.

- You know, and if cuts were made and we didn't have, you know, those council meetings running on your station, I mean, that'd be a real disservice to the community.

- Well, and I don't wanna in any way besmirch, you know, our counterparts or our colleagues who work in commercial radio or commercial television or newspaper 'cause as you know, there are a lot of really talented, hardworking people who are giving it their best shot every day.

But the numbers are the numbers.

Again, Illinois has lost 90%-ish of journalism positions over 20 years.

All of those entities are much smaller when it comes to staff than they were.

Public radio, public television nationally has been growing staff in these areas because we've made a concerted effort to do so.

So that progress at best is suspended.

- Do you know about how many hours a week, how many hours of programming your stations are putting out for local things?

- Well, I tend to not think as much in those terms.

I could tell you about, I mean, you know, we do a local newscast on each station every hour.

So that's, you know, two and a half minutes.

WGLT does a half hour daily news magazine and a daily news podcast.

But the bulk of our content is on our website or various social media platforms.

And the last I checked it, and it depends, but, you know, we're originating 30, 40, 50 stories a week that are locally produced.

And that's a lot for 2025.

- And they're not behind a paywall.

- That's right, and that is a huge part of what we're trying to do in public media.

And again, I don't wanna put myself in a position where I'm, you know, talking down or, you know, talking badly about folks whose content is behind a paywall.

That's what they feel they need to do for their business model.

We have a bit of a luxury that, you know, as a nonprofit, we don't have owners or investors, and we only have to break even, hopefully with a little something left to invest in the future, right?

But yeah, I mean, for many, many places, we're the only outlet that's freely available.

- And the nice thing about stations like yours is you're not beholden to a certain length of time.

You can do longer-form things if you want.

Make 'em longer, shorter.

And again, I'm not putting down broadcast TV.

I've worked for every station in town, (R.C.

chuckling) but it's nice to have that opportunity to say, "Hey, this is an important story.

Let's devote a half an hour to it as opposed to a minute."

- Right, and you feel that you can give it a little bit more justice when you're doing that.

And like you, I came from the commercial sphere, so, you know, I worked for many years at radio stations with, you know, 20, 30 commercials an hour.

It is a huge advantage for us that we don't have that kind of clutter.

- What can people do to find out more about the work you guys are doing at your stations?

- Well, I would encourage folks always, you know, everything we offer is at wcbu.org or wglt.org.

So if you're not familiar with it, I know a lot of folks are, but we would encourage folks to check in on what we're doing.

- All right, R.C.

McBride, we appreciate the work you and your staff do and hope you continue working hard.

- You as well.

- All right, thanks for coming in.

Appreciate it.

And thank you for watching.

You can check out this interview, share it with your friends at wtvp.org, and you can catch us on Facebook and Instagram.

Have a good night.

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