- Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum" from legislation rolling back DEI programs to corporate cutbacks, DEI is under full attack.

What does this mean for workplaces, universities, and marginalized communities?

And are we witnessing the dismantling of decades worth of work in progress?

Coming up next, stay with us.

- [Narrator] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to "Black Issues Forum".

I'm Kenia Thompson.

For years, DEI has been a driving force in workplaces, schools, and policies, helping to create fair and inclusive spaces for historically marginalized groups.

But in 2025, under a new presidential administration, we're seeing mandates to eliminate these initiatives through presidential executive orders, corporate budget cuts, and state level legislation rolling back DEI programs.

To talk about these changes and what the implications have and will be, let's welcome our guests.

Joining us today we have Dee McDougal, a leader in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space.

And with her, we have political strategist Stephanie Pigues, a former political strategist under the governor, Roy Cooper administration and Josh Stein campaign.

Welcome to the show.

- Thanks for having me.

- Thank you.

- So great to have you both.

You know, there's a lot to talk about because a lot has developed within the last two months, and I think what we need to do first though is kind of level set for our viewers and define what DEI is.

There's a lot of misunderstanding around that term and a lot of fear too.

Dee, I'll start with you.

What is DEI?

- I think it's really important to make sure we're using the words, you know, DEI as an acronym has been weaponized, but I think it's important to understand that DEI means diversity, equity, and inclusion.

And if we think about diversity as all the different attributes of our identity that make us different, equity is the process or the platform that makes sure that the systems within which we operate are fair and gives us access to opportunity.

And then inclusion is what is the experience like?

Do we feel that based on who we are, we have a chance to thrive in that environment?

So I think it's important to not only understand DEI as an acronym, but what do those words really mean?

And who could have a problem with that?

- Right, well, Stephanie, how have people misconstrued DEI?

How have we seen it used as a weapon?

Kind of like we've seen it today.

- Yeah, I think we have seen it weaponized and vilified in media.

I think there has been a full pressure campaign to make the narrative around DEI, not just the policies, but the narrative be something that people should be scared of, that it is the taking away of something from somebody else.

That if you include others, if you make things more equitable, more inclusive, that means there's less for somebody else.

And I think that is the problem, that people are seeing it as a piece of a pie.

That if we make it more inclusive and more people get access to the pie, there's going to be less for me.

And that is the good old boy system.

That is the, I would say, hierarchy that has always kept those at the bottom from having access to every day essentials, such as fair wages, jobs, healthcare.

- Right, well, speaking of those things, what have been some of the biggest threats that we've seen come down the pipeline from executive orders and other decisions that have been made locally that are threatening our communities?

- I think the biggest issue we see now is fear, right?

With the executive orders, there is, you know, reference to illegal DEI or there's language around it, but it isn't really defined, right?

So people don't know what this means for them, but access to opportunity and access to resources spans every aspect of our life.

And so it's really important to understand that from grant funding, all the way to access the opportunity with jobs, scholarships, lots of things are impacted when we talk about defunding DEI or dismantling DEI, yeah.

- Right, right.

- A lot of people are saying that DEI, to your point, Stephanie, is unnecessary.

It's exclusionary, and when we look at the executive order that was just put out, "Radical and wasteful" were some of those words [chuckling].

I see you chuckle, what is your first reaction to that?

- When politicians use those words, "Radical and wasteful," what they're really saying is that this is unnecessary, and it doesn't affect that many people, when they are saying that this is not something that is important to America as a country, and I think that's fundamentally against the American dream.

What is happening, especially in states that are more conservative leaning, they are making it, they are banning DEI in schools, colleges, and universities.

They are restricting the type of inclusive conversations that you can have in public schools.

They are restricting conversations about equity and equitable practices in the workplace.

They are making it harder for people to not only have their voices heard, but have access, as Dee said, to resources.

And we have to also understand DEI has been a code word, especially by some in politics, as Black or Hispanic, or as other.

But who DEI actually helps, veterans, the disabled, white women in fields such as tech and STEM and finance have actually been the biggest beneficiaries of diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives.

So when everyone wants to say, "DEI is the boogeyman, and it is only there to enhance Black and brown initiatives," I would really love them to look at the data, and really dive into who these initiatives and who these policies are helping.

- Can I just add one thing that, Stephanie, to your point, I think people hear DEI or they hear diversity, and they think that that means race and ethnicity.

There's so many other ways that we identify, and it includes all of those aspects.

And I think that from a messaging perspective, particularly since these executive orders have been issued after January 20th, there's been a hyperfocus on race.

There's been a hyperfocus on the trans population.

There's been a hyperfocus on these things, these limited elements of our identity, and diversity means so much more than that.

And so I would en encourage everyone, as they're thinking about DEI and what it means, think about all of the ways that you show up.

You know, do some research on the different dimensions of identity, and realize that there are probably benefits that you've received, if you are a parent, if you are a caregiver, if you are a person living with a disability, if you have visible disabilities or invisible disabilities, if you are someone who is over 40 and subject to age discrimination, there are so many dimensions of diversity.

And so the weaponization of DEI as an acronym has us focus on this one thing, and gets everyone all riled up, and it forces us to ignore all these other really important aspects of who we are, and how we show up in community, that can really be detrimental to how we experience life.

If people take away these programs, what is it gonna mean for you?

- What does it mean for you?

When we think of meritocracy- - Absolutely.

- Right, explain how that plays a role here.

- I will just, I'll start by saying that very often when we talk about a diverse workforce, people wanna bring in the conversation around meritocracy.

Diverse does not mean unqualified.

Very often people from diverse backgrounds, and if we focus on gender, or race, or ethnicity, people from these backgrounds, who aren't in majority groups, are often overqualified, and have been over mentored, and over sponsored in the workplace.

And so when we talk about bringing in more diversity, to realize the benefits of diversity in the workplace, people wanna make sure we mention meritocracy.

And that is a given.

You know, these spots are not, you know, DEI programs do not give unqualified people jobs, - Right.

- DEI programs give people who are from marginalized backgrounds access to the opportunity, and then we earn our way to wherever we are.

- [Host And Stephanie] Mm-hm.

- On a more political aspect, so these executive orders come out, how concrete are these changes going to, are they actually going to take place?

Are these DEI programs truly really going to be dismantled?

Are we gonna be punished, potentially, if we don't adhere to DEI orders?

Stephanie, I'll hit that to you.

- Yeah, unfortunately, I mean, we already see it happening in the UNC school system.

They had a referendum come down that's saying that all DEI offices across the UNC school system, including the North Carolina School of Science and Math, which is high school students, had to stop, and that put almost 60 people out of a job.

We are seeing at, you know, the federal level, all of the DEI offices being closed.

The USDA just rescinded their 1890 scholarship which was for HBCU students and students who have been predominantly disenfranchised to be able to go study agriculture, and farming, and give back to such an important industry in our country, and now that is being rescinded.

And so these things are slowly chipping away at the progress that we've worked so hard in this country to build up.

It is, really, the basis of all of this is to say, again, it's the meritocracy, it's saying these people didn't deserve this in the first place.

These who needed diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives to get here, we're not worthy of being here, and I think that sends the wrong message.

- You know, it makes me think.

So [chuckling], we defined DEI, we know that it's not a race thing, but understanding that the misconception for most people, it boils down to color.

So then it makes me ask the question, is racism still very much alive?

- Absolutely.

- Because if you're telling me because I'm black, I don't get to have access to certain things, then what other explanation is it that I don't get to the things that I now used to receive and you think is unfair for me to get?

- Well, I think that, and Stephanie alluded to this before, that there is an element of racism in here, but there's also a scarcity mindset with the idea that opportunity and resources are a pie, and so if more people have access to this pie, then that means less for me.

So a lot of these things, I think the initiatives, and I think going back to the legality of the executive orders, while people are, in universities and companies are responding right now, I think we'll see more lawsuits like the ones that were filed this week to challenge whether or not these executive orders and the execution of them are actually legal.

We'll see that in the weeks and months to come.

But I do think that there's an element of all of the isms, right?

So there is, you know, you know, sexism, racism, there are people who are homophobic, or you know, they challenge whether or not the legality or the very existence of trans people.

So there is that aspect of it, but I do think it goes back to if we can make people feel like they don't belong and that they don't deserve, then there's more for me.

And I think that we need to make sure that we're standing up for ourselves and continuing to show up and do the good work that demonstrates that we deserve to be here and we're not going anywhere.

- And to that point about scarcity, I believe it was last year, the Missouri Attorney General sued Starbucks for their DEI initiatives, saying that their DEI initiatives was creating reverse racism.

And I think it is the pressure that so many politicians receive from different corporations that are causing them to act in this way.

Because, you know, we cannot ever extrapolate money from politics.

- [Stephanie] Absolutely.

- Unfortunately, that is the truth.

- Yeah, - and so if you are feeling that financial pressure as a political candidate, as somebody in office, you sometimes do bend to the whim of those who have been supporting you.

And as this rhetoric grows in certain spaces of the political spectrum, I think you're gonna see more businesses feel the need to cave to that pressure.

- And earlier you mentioned universities, HBCUs, were seeing a lot of threat to federally funded dollars that are gonna support these institutions.

Is that a real challenge to the livelihood of our HBCUs here?

I mean, we are home to 11-plus, and that's scary to think.

Thoughts on that?

- Yeah, it's unfortunate.

And my hope is that, y'know, again, through lawsuits and what's to come, that the legality of these executive orders and the work that has been done to dismantle DEI initiatives, I think that hopefully we'll have some successful outcomes there.

I think in the meantime though, the schools, universities, they're in a bind because they can't exist without the federal funding and so in order to receive that funding, they have to adhere to what's been put forward in these executive orders.

And, y'know, we want the kids to get an education, the students to get an education, so what do we do in the meantime?

- And what do federal dollars fund for HBCUs, for example?

Like, are these state-level programs or is it operational funds?

What does that look like?

Stephanie, do you...?

- I mean, for a lot of the land grant HBCUs, which are public HBCUs, for example, this 1890s fellowship from the USDA, I mean, this helps fund their agricultural program.

This helps fund a major, people who have declared that they wanted to study agriculture, farm science, things of that nature, and giving these students those opportunities.

I mean, federal dollars to any public university, PWI, predominantly white institution, or HBCU, is so crucial in the inner workings, and of the stability and livelihood of the university.

You can't extrapolate the two.

And so I think when you're talking about pulling back from schools that have already been historically underfunded by the federal government, you have to say, well, how much more are you going to take?

Y'know, these schools have to stay solvent.

Y'know, North Carolina A&T, right up the street in Greensboro, is the leading school of Black engineers.

They produce more Black engineers than any other school in the country, more than MIT, more than Harvard, more than anywhere.

And to pull back funding from those schools is not just going to affect us here in North Carolina, it's not just gonna affect Black and Brown students.

It's gonna affect IBM, it's gonna affect Amazon, it's gonna affect Microsoft.

It's going to affect the corporate bottom line.

So you cannot remove one from the other.

Underfunding our HBCUs is setting big corporations up to fail as well.

- Wow, well, speaking of big corporations, we have seen, well, I have received, I'll just speak for myself, I don't know what everybody else is getting in their text messages, but I got from a few people, y'know, blackout dates of not shopping at certain stores, right?

We've got Target high on that list.

I will admit, I love Target and a lot of people have been arguing on social platforms, on both sides, why you should boycott and why you should not.

Dee, we had a conversation earlier in the green room about, y'know, we all, I think, three of us here can say that we are kind of on the fence about that because the deeper implications of boycotting can impact us.

And so I wanted you to share what you shared earlier.

- I think I totally understand people's desire to boycott and pull their personal dollars from companies that are not staying behind DEI efforts.

I also think it's really important for us to support black owned businesses that are currently on the shelves in these stores.

I think it's also really important to be strategic about our boycott so that we're able to demonstrate the economic impact of when we stop putting our dollars forward, and so there are a number of different initiatives, whether it's a single day or a 40 day fast from Target or other retailers where we can actually see the results and impact, but in the meantime, I think it's really important to make sure we are supporting those black-owned businesses and brands that are on the shelves in the store now.

These brands have invested their own resources.

They've done a lot to get into these big box retailers, and so what we don't want is for them to not be successful.

We can wait until they're sold out to boycott, but I really think it's important to be strategic and be able to really count the economic impact of when we pull our dollars back.

- Yeah.

- Any thoughts on the boycott?

- No, I completely agree.

I think we, you know, it is incumbent on us to support our black and brown retailers, because again, at the end of the year, Target is gonna look at what sold and what did not sell, and they're gonna make cuts based on the metrics, and so if we then boycott some of our favorite black-owned brands, and they're just gonna say we no longer have a reason to carry them, because the budget shows we have no longer have a reason to carry it.

We don't wanna give them more excuses.

- Indeed, indeed.

- Right, exactly.

[girls laugh] - I guess my question too is why is a Target or a Walmart deciding to pull back DEI resources or initiatives?

Like why would they make that decision?

- So I think Stephanie alluded to it a little bit earlier.

It's the pressure, the pressure and spotlight that they are receiving.

There are several sort of activist shareholders that are challenging these large retailers and large businesses around the investment that they're making in what they would call woke DEI policies.

So a lot of what we're seeing right now, what I would say is that companies are rebranding their diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives, and instead of having standalone teams or standalone initiatives, they are embedding that in other parts of the business, and pardon the pun, they're taking the target off their back, right?

So by integrating those DEI efforts and initiatives into other parts of their businesses, it makes it less obvious what they're working on.

So I think it's the pressure from, you know, I won't name names, but pressure from radical shareholders that are challenging what they call woke DEI policies that is making these businesses say, you know what?

We need to take a step back, and we need to figure out how we can bring this in house and take some of the heat off of ourselves right now.

- Well, I think unfortunately, though, the average consumer doesn't know that.

They don't see that.

So all they're seeing is, oh, you don't support me, right?

And so I think that that's the disconnect and frankly, just a lack of understanding and education around it, but we are seeing institutions and retailers, whatever, doubling down, saying, we are not backing away from this.

Do you think they're capitalizing on that momentum of maybe getting those dollars of folks that are gonna boycott?

Or are they really saying, you know what?

This is important.

I mean, I guess it could go either way, but I'll pivot back to you, Stephanie.

- Yeah, I think it's a risk.

I think they are betting on the fact that the momentum from this anti-DEI movement is going to funnel people who think the same way into their stores.

I think that they don't think the backlash will be great enough, because again, we all love a target.

- Indeed.

- And are we really going to do this?

I mean, I think of the Montgomery Bus boycotts.

It wasn't a hundred percent of people in Montgomery that were, you know, boycotting.

They're just hoping that it'll be such a small amount, it won't affect their bottom line.

So I think that is the narrative or that is the calculus in which they are weighing.

I think what they are not thinking of, which is what Dee is saying, is that people are ready to fight back.

State's attorneys generals are fighting back against these executive orders.

There are social activists and philanthropists and those on boards who are saying, "I will not stand for this," whose corporate dollars are extremely influential in this space.

And so, I think that they have woken a sleeping giant and that the activism and the resilience is really about to come full force.

- Can I add just one thing?

- Sure.

I think it's important to remember that the reason diverse workforces matter is because it leads to better business results.

And so, one of the biggest challenges with the misinformation around DEI or the weaponization of DEI as a term is that we focus on the people aspect and what it means.

We throw around words like meritocracy as if that didn't exist.

But the reason businesses focus on bringing in diverse workforces is because that leads to diverse perspectives, and when you have more diversity at the table, you can make better business decisions.

So for those companies that are doubling down, I don't think it's just a PR stunt.

I think that they are reaffirming their commitment to those diverse perspectives that make them better at their business.

And those companies that have diverse workforces and prioritize inclusion and belonging and inclusive leaders, they outperform those companies that don't.

So I think we really need to remember in this conversation that diversity leads to better business results, and so those companies that are gonna continue investing in that will turn out better in the long run once this dust settles.

- Yeah, well, when the dust settles.

- Yeah.

- A lot of people are saying, "What's next?"

You alluded to companies still doing some of the same initiatives or having the same focuses but camouflaging that in other areas.

Is that gonna be the trend, do you think?

Or will DEI emerge as something new, better maybe?

- You wanna take that?

- Ooh, that's a good question.

[panelists laughing] I think, especially speaking for North Carolina, 'cause that's a lot of my focus, in order to build a better, safer, stronger, more equitable North Carolina, we have to make sure that people are better educated, have more money in their pockets, and are free to live lives of abundance with dignity.

And I think that, whatever you name it, that has to be the mission, that has to be at the core.

And will we continue to call it diversity, equity, and inclusion after it has been vilified so much?

I don't know.

I can't tell you.

I completely agree with Dee in people are finding other places, calling it the strategic initiatives department now, or changing what it's called just to avoid some of that heat.

But I think that the mission behind it is not going anywhere.

And I think once the dust settles, that will emerge as the pervasive thought of making sure that people are included to make sure that people feel like they belong at their workplace, they belong at school, and that they belong at the table.

Because as Dee said, when they are at the table and you have these diverse perspectives, business has never done worse, not for anyone, not for state government, not for the federal government, not for corporations.

And so I think that that will be what comes to bear after all of this.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Thoughts on what consumers can do?

What can you and I do in this fight?

- I think really being...

So the first thing I would do is ask people to read beyond the headline.

I would ask people to really get into it and understand what's going on and ask, particularly folks who are watching this show to practice self-care, that there's a lot going on in a short period of time, so be mindful of what you consume and take a break away when you need to.

But as consumers and as citizens, I think that we can be strategic and thoughtful about where we put our time and our energy and our dollars.

I think it's really important now to understand what programs and what nonprofits we support that might have had funding that might have been cut.

How will that impact the children in our community?

And the people who don't have access to resources.

So, I think that there is action for us to take and whatever it is that you can do, be strategic and thoughtful about how you contribute.

- Indeed.

- And be in it for the long haul.

'cause this is gonna be a journey.

- It is gonna be a journey.

And I think, if we are more conscious of how we see it impacts ourselves and we use that lens to see how it impacts others and, hopefully, our conversations can be a little more fruitful.

And our decision making can be, I guess, more impactful, too.

Any last thoughts around where we're going?

People who feel hopeful, hopeless, really, around these orders, around these decisions, especially, for our youth?

- Mm-hmm.

- You know, I think, for our students, for those that are in the LGBT+ community.

You know, we can pull immigration in there.

- Absolutely.

- Stephanie, I mean, what are you, what do you say to those that are just hoping for a glimmer of hope?

- [chuckles] Practice self care.

- Yeah.

- As Dee said.

Lean into your village.

And while the loudest voices in the room might be those saying, "You don't belong.

This is not for you."

The American Dream always favors the dreamer.

Keep dreaming, keep hoping.

You know, it is a really, it is going to be a long road.

I'm not going to lie.

I think it, it looks bleakest just before dawn.

- Yeah.

- And I feel we're in that dead-of-midnight, pitch black.

How could it get any worse?

What is there to do?

But it really is the time to double down into your village, to figure out what is important to you, and to go after that, wholeheartedly.

- Yeah.

- If diversity, equity, and inclusion is what you are passionate about, dive into that.

Get involved with organizations and people doing good work.

If it is immigration, get into that.

- Get into it.

- You know, there is work to be done.

And now more than ever, we need people on the front lines, banding together, to show that this won't break us.

- Well, thank you both for being on the front lines.

Dee McDougal.

- Thank you.

- Stephanie, ladies, thank you so much.

- Absolutely.

Thank you.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram, using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS Video App.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

[upbeat music] ♪ - [Narrator] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.