FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO InFOCUS PROVIDED BY THE MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION.

AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO InFOCUS, A FORMER U.S. AIR FORCE FIREFIGHTER TALKS ABOUT HIS EXPOSURE TO PFAS TOXICS.

Kevin: OUR INSTRUCTORS HAD TOLD US, "AFFF FIREFIGHTING FOAM IS JUST SOAP AND WATER, IT'S PERFECTLY SAFE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT."

>> Gene: AND THE DELTA VARIANT WREAKS HAVOC ON PLANS TO RETURN TO NORMALCY AS VACCINE REQUIREMENTS MULTIPLY.

NEW MEXICO InFOCUS STARTS NOW.

>> Gene: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

FEDERAL WORKERS, STATE WORKERS, UNIVERSITY WORKERS, PRIVATE WORKERS, MORE AND MORE EMPLOYEES ARE FACING THE CHOICE OF A VACCINE OR THE INCONVENIENCE OF FREQUENT TESTING.

THE LINE WILL EXPLORE THAT.

OUR GROUP ALSO TALKS ABOUT THE EMBATTLED LEADER OF THE LEGISLATIVE EDUCATIONAL STUDY COMMITTEE AS SHOUTS FOR HER RESIGNATION GROW LOUDER.

WE SIT DOWN WITH CONGRESSMAN TERESA LEGER-FERNANDEZ TO TALK ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE AND IMMIGRATION.

WE BEGIN WITH THE INVESTIGATION INTO SHERYL WILLIAMS STAPLETON AND HER QUICK RESIGNATION LAST WEEK.

>> Gene: THAT DIDN'T TAKE LONG.

WITHIN DAYS OF BEING ACCUSED, THOUGH NOT YET FORMALLY CHARGED OF FUNNELING NEARLY $1 MILLION FROM ALBUQUERQUE PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO ACCOUNTS AND BUSINESSES SHE CONTROLLED, REPRESENTATIVE SHERYL WILLIAMS STAPLETON RESIGNED HER SEAT IN THE LEGISLATURE.

APS REPORTED THE SUSPECTED SCHEME TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THIS SPRING AND BY LAST WEEK, MS. STAPLETON'S HIGH-PROFILE POLITICAL JOINING US NOW TO TALK ABOUT THE FALL-OUT, OUR LINE OPINION PANEL.

LINE REGULAR AND PR PRO TOM GARRITY RETURNS.

SO TOO DOES ATTORNEY AND ANOTHER REGULAR, LAURA SANCHEZ IS WITH US.

AND JOINING US AS OUR SPECIAL GUEST STAR THIS WEEK IS FORMER STATE SENATOR ERIC GRIEGO.

ALL RIGHT, GUYS, THE ALLEGATIONS ARE THAT MS. WILLIAMS STAPLETON, WHO WAS THE DIRECTOR OF CAREER AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION AT APS, USED HER POSITION TO GUIDE $5 MILLION OF SOLE-SOURCE CONTRACT MONEY TO A COMPANY WITH CLOSE TIES TO HER, EVENTUALLY SHARING ALMOST $1 MILLION FOR HERSELF.

THAT'S AN ALLEGATIONS, NOT A CRIMINAL CHARGE YET, AND MS. WILLIAMS STAPLETON DENIES IT, BUT IT SEEMS SHE SAW THE WRITING ON THE WALL.

AND ERIC, ARE YOU SURPRISED AT HOW QUICKLY SHE RESIGNED?

AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS, THE LANGUAGE THAT'S COME OUT OF HER AND HER ATTORNEY AFTER THE RESIGNATION SOUNDS LIKE SHE WANTS TO STAND UP AND FIGHT THIS THING.

SO WHY DID SHE RESIGN SO QUICKLY?

>> Eric: THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

IT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME.

I MEAN, I THINK IT WAS THE HONORABLE THING DO, AND OBVIOUSLY SHE'S INNOCENT UNTIL THESE ALLEGATIONS ARE BUT IT DOESN'T SEND A REALLY GOOD SIGNAL IF YOU'RE REALLY INNOCENT TO RESIGN.

I MEAN, CONTRAST TO WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH CUOMO, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DRAG HIM OUT OF THAT OFFICE, AND THOSE ARE MUCH MORE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS.

>> Gene: GOOD POINT.

>> Eric: SO I RESPECT THE DECISION.

I THINK IF YOU'RE HER ATTORNEY, AND I'M NOT AN ATTORNEY, I'LL DEFER TO LAURA ON THAT ONE, IT PROBABLY MAKES IT HARDER TO SAY, LIKE, WHY WOULD YOU RESIGN IF YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG.

I'VE READ THE COMPLAINTS AND IT LOOKS PRETTY SERIOUS.

LIKE PRETTY SERIOUS STUFF.

I THINK I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS DOESN'T JUST BECOME ABOUT HER.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS, YOU KNOW, SOME REAL LACK OF OVERSIGHT.

I MEAN, WE DON'T HAVE THE INSTITUTIONS, THE LAWS IN PLACE THAT REALLY HOLD NOT JUST LEGISLATORS, BUT EXECUTIVE BRANCH FOLKS ACCOUNTABLE TO THESE KINDS OF ETHICS AND CORRUPTION.

WE'RE HEARING MULTIPLE STORIES.

RIGHT NOW, IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS, THERE HAVE BEEN FIVE OR SIX ELECTED OFFICIALS IN BOTH PARTIES WHO HAVE QUESTIONABLE SORT OF BEHAVIOR AND TIES TO COMPANIES AND SO ON, AND SOME OF THEM WILL GET INVESTIGATED AND SOME OF THEM WON'T.

SO I DO THINK IT SPEAKS TO THIS NEED FOR MUCH MORE OVERSIGHT AND MAYBE MORE INDEPENDENT OVERSIGHT, MAYBE EVEN A STATE INSPECTOR GENERAL OR SOMETHING TO LOOK AT ALLEGATIONS LIKE THIS, AS OPPOSED TO HOPING THE LEGISLATURE OR THE NEW ETHICS COMMISSION CAN DEAL WITH IT, BECAUSE I JUST DON'T THINK THEY HAVE THE POWER TO REALLY DO ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL.

BUT IN THIS CASE, IT RAISES TO THE LEVEL OF OBVIOUSLY A FEDERAL -- THERE'S FEDERAL MONEY INVOLVED.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

IT COMPLICATES EVERYTHING, EXACTLY RIGHT THERE.

LAURA, THERE'S AN OBVIOUS QUESTION SORT OF HANGING OUT THERE, MIGHT AS WELL GET TO IT.

ARE THERE BROADER IMPLICATIONS FOR NEW MEXICO DEMOCRATS HERE?

>> Laura: WELL, IT'S DEFINITELY A BLACK EYE, I THINK, FOR ANY DEMOCRAT IN THE STATE.

IT'S A REAL LOSS, I THINK, FOR SOMEBODY WHO'S BEEN IN THE LEADERSHIP POSITION FOR SO LONG TO THEN HAVE THIS KIND OF THING COME OUT.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT WE'VE SEEN PEOPLE IN HIGH PLACES FALL LIKE THIS.

THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL HAD JUST A LIST OF WHO'S WHO OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN SCANDALS, BEEN REMOVED, BEEN THROUGH CRIMINAL CHARGES, SERVED TIME, BOTH PARTIES.

SO IT'S REALLY UNFORTUNATE.

BUT I THINK THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND AS WE SAW RIGHT AFTER SHE RESIGNED, THERE WAS A QUICK MOVE FOR THE CAUCUS.

THEY GOT TOGETHER, THEY GOT SOMEONE IN AS THE MAJORITY FLOOR LEADER AT LEAST INTERIM UNTIL THEY CAN HAVE AN ELECTION IN ABOUT TWO WEEKS.

SO AT LEAST THEY MOVED QUICKLY TO DO THAT.

BUT I THINK FROM A PERSONAL LEVEL -- >> Gene: LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION IF I COULD, LAURA, SORT OF RELATED TO WHAT I ASKED ERIC A SECOND AGO.

IS IT YOUR SENSE THAT THE MAJORITY LEADER REALLY LEANED ON MS. STAPLETON TO RESIGN, PERHAPS EARLIER THAN IF SHE HAD A CHANCE TO SIT BACK AND THINK ABOUT IT SHE MIGHT NOT HAVE?

>> Laura: DID YOU MEAN THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE?

>> Gene: SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, YES; SORRY.

>> Laura: YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW.

CERTAINLY THERE WAS PRESSURE.

I WILL SAY THAT I AGREE WITH ERIC, WHEN SOMEBODY RESIGNS, CERTAINLY THERE'S QUESTIONS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IS THERE SOME GUILT THERE OR WHATEVER, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WHEN YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A STORM LIKE THAT AND I'VE NOT BEEN IN THE MIDDLE OF A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.

I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THE STRESS INVOLVED WITH THAT.

BUT I HAVE BEEN IN THE MIDDLE OF A PUBLIC DEBACLE, SO TO SPEAK, WITHIN THE PARTY, AND WHEN YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT STORM, YOU'RE REALLY LOOKING TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO, YOU KNOW, FOCUS.

AND IF HER FOCUS, WHICH I THINK APPROPRIATELY SO NEEDS TO BE ON THE INVESTIGATION, THE CRIMINAL SIDE OF IT, DEALING WITH ALL OF THAT, CLEARING HER NAME, IT SOUNDS LIKE THAT'S A GOAL, THEN DEALING WITH ALL THE PUBLIC PRESSURE AND CALLS TO RESIGN CAN BE A REAL DISTRACTION AND CAN PULL A PERSON APART VERY QUICKLY.

SO I LIKE TO TAKE A MEASURED APPROACH HERE.

IT'S NOT ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE WAY I PERCEIVED OR COMMENTED WHEN GRIEGO WAS GOING THROUGH HIS PART OR HIS ISSUES.

WE'LL WAIT AND SEE IN TERMS OF THE INVESTIGATION.

BUT THERE CERTAINLY IS ENOUGH IN THERE FOR A FEDERAL GRAND JURY SUBPOENA EVEN, WHICH IS PRETTY SERIOUS.

OF COURSE, THERE'S BEEN OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD FEDERAL LIKE BILL RICHARDSON, AND NOTHING CAME OF THAT.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

LET ME GET TOM IN HERE REAL QUICK.

TOM, INTERESTINGLY, ERIC MENTIONED ABOUT THE RED FLAGS.

I'M CURIOUS, YOU'RE AN EX-APS GUY, YOU'RE ALSO AN EX-LEGISLATIVE GUY.

YOU'VE KIND OF SEEN THIS FROM BOTH ENDS OF THE WORLD HERE.

IS THERE A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HERE WITH APS WHEN IT COMES TO OVERSIGHT AND THESE KIND OF SOLE-SOURCE CONTRACTS?

WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT HERE?

>> Tom: WELL, YEAH.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT THERE'S AN ISSUE WITH SOLE-SOURCE CONTRACTS PERIOD, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT'S IN ALBUQUERQUE PUBLIC SCHOOLS OR STATE OF NEW MEXICO OR ANYWHERE, JUST BECAUSE I THINK THAT HAS SOME -- IT ALWAYS LEAVES THE DOOR OPEN FOR, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF DIFFERENT ISSUES.

SPECIFIC TO APS AND THIS PARTICULAR CASE, RENETTE APODACA, THE PERSON WITH APS WHO ACTUALLY DISCOVERED THIS, SHE DESERVES ACCOLADES FOR REALLY KIND OF FOLLOWING HER SENSE AND HAVING IT INVESTIGATED.

OF COURSE, AS BOTH ERIC AND LAURA HAVE SAID, SHERYL WILLIAMS STAPLETON IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, AND SO WE JUST NEED TO KEEP AN EYE ON THAT.

I THINK THAT TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IS THE BUREAUCRACY TOO BIG, THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT ENTITIES WHO ARE LOOKING AT THIS.

SUPPOSEDLY EVERYBODY FROM THE STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

SO A LOT OF DIFFERENT ENTITIES ARE TAKING A LOOK AT THIS.

>> Gene: ERIC, HOW DOES APS COME OUT IN THIS?

ON THE ONE HAND, THE ALLEGED CRIMES WENT ON FOR YEARS, AS WE KNOW NOW, AND ON THE OTHER, THE NEW SUPERINTENDENT, AS YOU MENTIONED, SCOTT ELDER, PUT HIS NAME TO A LETTER REQUESTING THE AG'S HELP.

TO ADD TO THAT, WE'VE GOT A BUNCH OF FOLKS AT APS NOW ON LEAVE, AS A MATTER OF FACT, BEEN PLACED ON LEAVE, SO WHO KNOWS WHAT'S GOING TO COME OUT OF THAT SITUATION.

SO HOW DOES APS CRAWL BACK FROM THIS AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT GUYS, WE FIXED THIS, WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?

>> Eric: WELL, I'M IN THE CAMP THAT SAYS -- YOU KNOW, LOTS OF PEOPLE LIKE TO PILE ONTO APS AND THEY'VE GOT, SURE, THEY'VE GOT THEIR PROBLEMS, BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE THE INSTITUTIONS IN PLACE TO REALLY HAVE SOME OVERSIGHT.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A STATE AUDITOR WHOSE JOB IT IS TO OVERSEE THIS KIND OF STUFF AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

THEY AUDIT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, THEY AUDIT SCHOOL DISTRICTS BY STATUTE.

SO THE QUESTION IS FOR EVERYBODY PILING ON APS NOW, WHERE WAS THE OVERSIGHT?

NOT JUST AT APS, WHICH OBVIOUSLY THEY BROUGHT IT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE AUTHORITIES, WHICH I THINK WAS GOOD AND APPROPRIATE, DO WE HAVE THE ENTITIES, THE INSTITUTIONS IN PLACE AND I DON'T THINK WE DO, BECAUSE IF WE DID, I THINK WE WOULD HAVE CAUGHT THIS SOONER.

WHEN I WAS ON COUNCIL IN ALBUQUERQUE, WE NEEDED AN INSPECTOR GENERAL, BECAUSE WE HAD SOME OF THIS SAME BEHAVIOR HAPPENING IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT, AND WE CREATED AN INSPECTOR GENERAL.

NOT EVERYBODY WAS CRAZY ABOUT THAT, BUT IT'S BEEN ONE MORE TOOL TO REALLY PROVIDE SOME INDEPENDENT OVERSIGHT, RIGHT.

INDEPENDENT, THAT'S THE KEY THING.

REMEMBER, THE FOLKS WHO DO THIS OVERSIGHT RIGHT NOW ARE PARTISAN OFFICIALS.

THEY'RE EITHER COLLEAGUES OF PEOPLE ACCUSED OR THEY'RE MEMBERS OF A PARTY, SO I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S THE BEST SYSTEM.

WHAT A LOT OF STATES HAVE AND A LOT OF CITIES, EVEN AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, AGENCIES HAVE IS AN INDEPENDENT INSPECTOR GENERAL TO LOOK AT THIS EXACT KIND OF BEHAVIOR IN SCHOOL SYSTEMS AND SO ON, AND NOT HOPE THAT YOU HAVE THE INTERNAL CAPACITY WHETHER YOU'RE A BIG SCHOOL SYSTEM LIKE APS OR A SMALLER SCHOOL SYSTEM, LIKE FLOYD, WHO WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT NEXT, TO REALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO REGULARLY, NOT ONCE EVERY TEN YEARS, BUT REGULARLY KEEP AN EYE ON THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOR AND SOLE SOURCE CONTRACTING CONFLICTS AND ALL THE THINGS THAT WE'RE FINDING OUT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED IN THIS CASE.

>> Gene: TOM, I'VE GOT A TOUGH ONE FOR YOU IN LESS THAN A MINUTE -- ACTUALLY, WE'RE GOING TO MOVE ON.

THIS GROUP RETURNS IN A FEW MINUTES.

>> Tom: OH, NO!

I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING ASK.

>> Gene: I'M SORRY.

WE'LL COME BACK IN A FEW MINUTES TO TALK ABOUT NEW RESTRICTIONS AND REQUIREMENTS FOR GOING BACK TO WORK AND SCHOOL THIS FALL.

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: IT HAS BEEN POLITICIZED AND THEY HAVE SOUGHT TO DEMONIZE ANOTHER IN ORDER TO GET POLITICAL GAIN.

AND THEY HAVE SOUGHT TO DEMONIZE MEXICANS AND LATINOS.

IT'S ABOUT BIGOTRY, IT'S ABOUT RACISM.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK, WE HAVE AN EXCERPT FROM A PIECE FOR OUR GROUNDWATER WAR INVESTIGATION SERIES.

IT'S PART OF A LONGER CONVERSATION ABOUT THE TOXIC CHEMICALS AND A CERTAIN KIND OF FIREFIGHTING FOAM THAT THE MILITARY USED FROM THE LATE 1970s UNTIL RECENTLY.

CORRESPONDENT LAURA PASKUS TALKS TO RETIRED AIR FORCE FIREFIGHTER KEVIN FERRARA WHO WAS STATIONED IN THE 1990s AT CANNON AIR FORCE BASE, JUST ONE OF HUNDREDS OF BASES NATIONWIDE WHERE TOXIC PFAS CHEMICALS HAVE CONTAMINATED GROUNDWATER.

AND IF YOU WANT TO WATCH THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION, YOU CAN WATCH ON OUR GROUNDWATER WAR WEBSITE.

>> Laura: KEVIN FERRARA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME FROM PENNSYLVANIA TODAY.

I'M GLAD TO HAVE YOU HERE TO TALK ABOUT PFAS AND THE AIR FORCE AND AFFF FIREFIGHTING FOAM THAT HAS THESE TOXIC CHEMICALS IN IT.

CAN WE START WITH, YOU WERE AN AIR FORCE FIREFIGHTER.

CAN YOU GIVE US A LITTLE LIKE OVERVIEW OF YOUR CAREER?

>> Kevin: SURE.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.

I WELCOME THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET MY STORY OUT THERE.

SO MY AIR FORCE CAREER STARTED IN 1991.

I LEFT CENTRAL PENNSYLVANIA AND JOINED THE AIR FORCE.

MY FIRST TRAINING WAS AT CHANUTE AIR FORCE BASE IN RANTOUL, ILLINOIS.

THAT'S WHERE IF YOU WERE GOING TO BE A FIREFIGHTER IN THE AIR FORCE, THAT'S WHERE YOU WENT FOR TRAINING AT THE TIME.

I COMPLETED MY TRAINING THERE, AND THEN MY FIRST ASSIGNMENT WAS AT CANNON AIR FORCE BASE IN CLOVIS, NEW MEXICO.

I WAS THERE FOR FOUR YEARS.

AFTER THAT IN '95, I LEFT.

I GOT OUT OF THE AIR FORCE AND RETURNED TO PENNSYLVANIA FOR A FEW YEARS.

BUT MY PASSION WAS FIREFIGHTING, AND I WANTED TO COME BACK IN AS A FIREFIGHTER.

SO IN 2001, I REJOINED THE AIR FORCE.

I WENT TO DAVIS-MONTHAN AIR FORCE BASE IN TUCSON, ARIZONA, FOUND MY WAY TO GERMANY FOR FOUR YEARS, AND THEN AS MY CAREER STARTED WRAPPING UP, I FINISHED AT LANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE IN HAMPTON, VIRGINIA.

>> Laura: SO IN THE LATE 1970s, THE U.S. MILITARY STARTED USING THIS AFFF THAT HAS PFAS, THESE TOXIC SUBSTANCES IN IT, AND AROUND 2006 THE MILITARY STARTED PHASING THAT OUT AT EUROPEAN MILITARY BASES, AND THEN IN 2016 STARTED PHASING IT OUT AT U.S.

BASES.

BUT BACK IN THE 1990s, WHAT DID YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS AFFF THAT YOU WERE USING ON A DAILY BASIS?

>> Kevin: WELL, TO BE HONEST, WE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT PFAS WAS AND WHAT AFFF REALLY WAS.

WHEN I FIRST STARTED IN 1991 AT CHANUTE, THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT I WAS IN CONTACT WITH FIREFIGHTING I HAD HEARD ABOUT IT.

NEVER ACTUALLY SEEN OR PUT HANDS ON IT.

AND AS WE WERE USING IT, THE CHARACTERISTICS OF IT LOOKED JUST LIKE YOUR DISH SOAP WHEN YOU WASH DISHES.

IT SUDS UP, IT'S THE SAME COLOR, ALL OF THAT.

AND WE WERE TOLD IT WAS SOAP AND WATER.

YOU KNOW, OUR INSTRUCTORS HAD TOLD US, AFFF FIREFIGHTING FOAM IS JUST SOAP AND WATER, IT'S PERFECTLY SAFE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT.

OF COURSE, NOW THROUGH RESEARCH AND EVERYTHING WE FOUND THOSE DOCUMENTS THAT SAY, DATING BACK TO THE SEVENTIES, NOT SO MUCH.

IT'S NOT SAFE.

>> Laura: BEING A FIREFIGHTER CARRIES A BEING IN THE MILITARY CARRIES A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF RISK.

BUT WHAT ARE YOUR CONCERNS AND THE CONCERNS YOU'RE HEARING FROM OTHER VETERANS ABOUT THEIR EXPOSURE TO PFAS?

>> Kevin: THE BIGGEST CONCERN RIGHT NOW IS, FROM ALL THE FIREFIGHTERS THAT I TALK TO, THEY ASK ME, BECAUSE OF THE EXPOSURE THAT THEY'VE HAD TO PFAS AND TO FIREFIGHTING FOAM, ARE THEY GOING TO GET CANCER.

THAT'S THEIR BIGGEST FEAR, BECAUSE THERE'S NO MAGIC PILL TO GET RID OF PFAS.

ONCE YOU'RE EXPOSED TO IT, ONCE IT'S IN YOUR BODY, IT STAYS IN YOUR BODY FOR YEARS.

SO THEIR BIGGEST CONCERN IS, ARE THEY GOING TO GET SICK BECAUSE OF THIS.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE DOD, THE MILITARY, IS NOT TELLING THEM ANYTHING, YOU KNOW, ABOUT THE HAZARDS OR RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH IT.

THEY'RE DOING THEIR OWN INDEPENDENT RESEARCH.

THEY'RE CONTACTING ME, OTHER FIREFIGHTERS.

AND WE'VE ALWAYS SAID, FIREFIGHTING IS LIKE A BROTHERHOOD, IT'S A HUGE NETWORK, AND WE BOUNCE THINGS OFF OF EACH OTHER, IDEAS, AND WE CONSTANTLY NETWORK AND COMMUNICATE.

AND THAT'S HOW WE'RE LEARNING MORE AND MORE ABOUT PFAS.

IT'S NOT FROM THE VA, THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, THE AIR FORCE, THESE MILITARY INSTALLATIONS, IT'S INDEPENDENT RESEARCH THAT WE'RE DOING ON OUR OWN AND SHARING THOSE FINDINGS.

>> Laura: I'M CURIOUS WHY YOU THINK THERE MIGHT BE SOME RELUCTANCE AMONG VETERANS OR ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY MEMBERS TO TALK ABOUT THEIR CONCERNS, TO TALK ABOUT THEIR EXPOSURE, TO TALK ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

>> Kevin: WELL, FIRST AND FOREMOST, WITH ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY AND DOD CIVILIANS, THEY HAVE A FEAR OF REPRISAL.

IF THEY SPEAK UP ABOUT THIS, THEY'RE IN FEAR THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE PUNISHED IN SOME FASHION FOR VOICING THEIR CONCERNS.

NOW, AS FOR FORMER FIREFIGHTERS, VETERANS LIKE MYSELF, YES, WE'RE STILL MILITARY IN A SENSE, WE'RE RETIREES, BUT WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE LEEWAY AS TO VOICING OUR CONCERNS AND EVERYTHING AND SHOWING OUR FRUSTRATIONS.

NOT SO MUCH WITH, LIKE I SAID, WITH THE ACTIVE DUTY FOLKS.

BECAUSE EVEN BEFORE I RETIRED, I WITNESSED IT TO WHERE FIREFIGHTERS WOULD EXPRESS SOME CONCERNS ABOUT CERTAIN THINGS, AND ALMOST INSTANTLY THEIR LEADERSHIP WOULD FROWN UPON THAT AND PUNISH THEM IN SOME FASHION FOR REALLY VOICING VALID CONCERNS.

AND PFAS IS DEFINITELY A VALID CONCERN.

IT EFFECTS ONE'S HEALTH.

THEY SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT IT AND THEY SHOULD HAVE -- THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE AFRAID TO DO SO.

THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO SO FREELY AND HAVE AN OPEN DIALOGUE WITH THEIR LEADERSHIP AND COME UP WITH SOME SOLUTIONS.

BUT THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

>> Laura: KEVIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMMUNICATING WITH US, FOR TALKING WITH ME TODAY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> Kevin: AGAIN, LAURA, I APPRECIATE BEING ON.

AND ANYTHING THAT YOU NEED, I'M HERE TO HELP OUT.

>> Laura: THANK YOU.

>> Gene: REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH WE'D LOVE TO BE RETURNING TO A NORMAL SCHOOL YEAR, OR A MORE NORMAL WORK ENVIRONMENT, COVID-19 HAS OTHER PLANS.

THE DELTA VARIANT OF THE NOVEL CORONAVIRUS HAS DRIVEN NEW CASE COUNTS TO THEIR HIGHEST LEVEL IN MONTHS, RIGHT HERE IN NEW MEXICO, AS WELL.

THE MORE CONTAGIOUS STRAIN IS RELATIVELY EASY FOR EVEN VACCINATED PEOPLE TO SPREAD AND IT'S FORCED EMPLOYERS AND SCHOOL DISTRICTS TO RETHINK THEIR PLANS.

TOM, SCHOOLS ACROSS THE STATE ARE NOW FOLLOWING CDC GUIDELINES REQUIRING MASKS FOR STUDENTS AND STAFF, AND AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE ON THIS SHOW, I'VE ASKED A QUESTION I'LL ASK YOU.

KIDS ARE GOING TO BE BACK IN SCHOOL, AND THAT WAS THE MAIN CRY OF FRUSTRATION FROM SO MANY LAST YEAR.

SHOULD MASKS REALLY BE THAT BIG OF AN ISSUE NOW?

I MEAN, A LOT OF KIDS HAVE GOT THIS DOWN.

THEY JUST KNOW WHAT TO DO.

>> Tom: WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT MASKS ARE AN ISSUE BECAUSE COVID IS STILL AN ISSUE.

CDC GUIDELINES ARE REALLY GOING TO BE WHAT DRIVES THE NARRATIVE, NOT JUST HERE IN NEW MEXICO BUT THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

BUT THE MASK ISSUE IS REALLY JUST THE SIDE STORY.

THE MAIN STORY, OR THE FEATURE EVENT, IS GOING TO BE ONCE THE COVID VACCINE IS APPROVED AND PART OF THE FDA REGIMENT, WILL IT BE THE 11th VACCINE THAT'S REQUIRED IN ORDER TO ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

AND IF SO, HOW ARE THE SCHOOL DISTRICTS GOING TO ENFORCE ALL 11 VACCINATIONS, AND IS PED, THE PUBLIC EDUCATION DEPARTMENT, GOING TO BE JUST AS DILIGENT TO REMOVE SCHOOL BOARDS IF THEY DON'T FOLLOW THE VACCINATION PROTOCOLS AS IDENTIFIED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH.

SO THIS, THE MASK ISSUE, IS SIMPLY -- IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE, AND ALBUQUERQUE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, SANTA FE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, LAS CRUCES PUBLIC SCHOOLS, THREE OF THE FOUR LARGEST SCHOOL DISTRICTS IN NEW MEXICO, HAVE GONE ABOVE AND BEYOND THE PUBLIC EDUCATION DEPARTMENT REQUIREMENTS.

SO I THINK THAT'S A GOOD THING, BECAUSE THEY'RE JUST KIND OF STAYING AWAY FROM THAT LINE OF CONTROVERSY AND THEY'RE JUST SAYING, WE'RE GOING TO EMBRACE THIS FULL FORCE.

BUT AGAIN, I THINK THAT'S JUST THE SIDE ISSUE.

THE MAIN EVENT IS STILL AHEAD.

>> Gene: GOOD POINT THERE.

LAURA, INTERESTINGLY YOU'VE SEEN ON THE NEWS, VACCINE REQUIREMENTS ARE ON THE RISE.

FEDERAL EMPLOYEES, STATE EMPLOYEES, STUDENTS AND STAFF AT UNM, AND EMPLOYEES AT NMSU, AS WELL, ALL HAVE TO BE VACCINATED OR SUBMIT TO MORE AGGRESSIVE TESTING.

AND LAURA, THOSE EMPLOYERS HAVE WONDERED IF THEY HAVE THE POWER TO DO THIS.

INTERESTING LEGAL QUESTION.

NOW THAT THE VIRUS IS BACK WITH A VENGEANCE, THOSE HAVE ALREADY SEEM TO HAVE BEEN SET ASIDE, HAVEN'T THEY?

OR HAVE THEY?

WHICH SIDE DO YOU SEE IT ON?

>> Laura: WELL, I THINK THERE'S PROBABLY SOME THAT BELIEVE THAT THERE'S STILL A LEGAL ARGUMENT TO BE MADE THERE, BUT IT'S A PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY.

A LOT OF -- JUST AS WHEN THERE'S A NATIONAL EMERGENCY OF ANOTHER KIND, WHEN WE HAD TERRORISM CONCERNS AND OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES WERE BEING ERODED, A PUBLIC EMERGENCY A WHOLE DIFFERENT, A PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY, IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT ANIMAL.

AND THERE'S VERY CLEAR STATUTORY AUTHORITY ABOUT ACTIONS THAT THE GOVERNOR AND THE GOVERNMENT IN GENERAL CAN TAKE IN ORDER TO PROTECT LIVES, IN ORDER TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE.

AND I THINK THAT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN PARTICULAR IS THE PED AND THEIR RULES AND REGULATIONS.

I WORKED AT A LAW FIRM THAT REPRESENTED A LOT OF DIFFERENT SCHOOL DISTRICTS AROUND THE STATE, AND WE HAD TO WARN THEM.

YOU HAD TO TELL THESE SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS, SOMETIMES, YOU NEED TO REMEMBER THAT, YES, YOU'RE IN AN ELECTED POSITION, BUT YOU'RE NOT IN A WHOLE SEPARATE COUNTRY.

LIKE YOU'RE NOT YOUR OWN LITTLE FIEFDOM.

YOU STILL HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RULES AND THE LAWS AND THE GUIDELINES, THE REGULATIONS THAT THE PUBLIC EDUCATION DEPARTMENT LAYS OUT, AND IF YOU DON'T, PED COULD TAKE YOU OVER.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING HAPPENING NOW WITH FLOYD.

IT'S A VERY SMALL SCHOOL DISTRICT.

BUT ALSO, THESE KIND OF CONCERNS ARE RAMPANT THROUGHOUT THE SOUTHEASTERN PART OF THE STATE, BUT THEY'RE NOT ISOLATED TO THAT AREA.

WE'VE SEEN PROTESTS IN SANTA FE, AS WELL, ALONG THESE LINES.

SO I THINK WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO SEE MORE PEOPLE >> Gene: INTERESTING POINT THERE.

THE SANTA FE PROTESTS MATERIALIZED OUT OF NOWHERE, JUST VERY QUICKLY.

ERIC, IT'S INTERESTING, IN AN EMPLOYER-EMPLOYEE REALM OF THINGS, I'M INTERESTED IN YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE ALTERNATIVE TO VACCINATION IS, AS I MENTIONED, THE FREQUENT TESTING.

IT'S ALMOST AS IF FOLKS ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE'RE GOING TO DRIVE YOU CRAZY ENOUGH TO GET VACCINATED.

OR WE'RE LITERALLY GOING TO FORCE YOU INTO IT BY BEING A PAIN LITERALLY IN YOUR ARM.

IS THIS THE WAY TO GO?

IS IT GOING TO BE EFFECTIVE?

I MEAN, HOW DO YOU SEE THIS WITH HOW THE EMPLOYER-EMPLOYEE THING IS TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, WORK TO MOTIVATE FOLKS?

>> Eric: WELL, I WISH FOLKS COULD JUST SORT OF BUY INTO THE SCIENCE.

THERE'S BEEN SO MUCH MISINFORMATION, SUCH LACK OF LEADERSHIP FROM LOTS OF FOLKS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE, THAT IT'S CREATED THIS MISTRUST IN THE SCIENCE, MISTRUST IN INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE CDC, SO NOW WE'RE TRYING TO PUSH BACK ON THIS SORT OF MINDSET AMONG A LOT OF FOLKS THAT THEY JUST DON'T TRUST THE BASIC -- WE'RE TALKING ABOUT INSTITUTIONS, THE BASIC INSTITUTIONS AND THE SCIENCE THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE GOVERNING.

AND AS LAURA SAID, THIS NOT ABOUT POLITICS, THIS IS ABOUT PUBLIC HEALTH, AND I THINK THAT'S A DIFFERENT ANIMAL.

SO IF THAT'S THE ONLY TOOL THAT EMPLOYERS HAVE, MAYBE THAT WILL BE ENOUGH.

I WISH THAT IT WOULDN'T COME TO THAT, THAT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO, LIKE, REALLY MAKE PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE AND HAVE TO SUBMIT TO SORT OF ALL SORTS OF ADDITIONAL TESTING.

I WISH IT WAS JUST OUT OF A SHARED SENSE OF COMMUNITY AND IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO, BUT WE'RE NOT THERE.

AND THERE'S A LOT WE CAN ALL DEBATE ABOUT WHY THAT IS.

IS IT SOCIAL MEDIA?

IS IT PARTISAN POLITICS?

POLARIZATION?

WHATEVER YOU THINK THE EXPLANATION IS.

DONALD TRUMP?

BUT THE FACT REMAINS THAT WE HAVE A REAL PROBLEM.

AND THE COUNTIES, IRONICALLY -- TOM MENTIONED THE PRESS RELEASE FROM REBECCA DOW AND THE GOVERNOR'S RACE ABOUT LOCAL CONTROL, LOCAL CONTROL, AND YOU HEARD THAT FROM A LOT OF REPUBLICAN LEGISLATORS.

WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT?

WE DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF HAVING LOCAL CONTROL OVER PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUES.

WE CAN'T DECIDE THAT EMPLOYEES DON'T HAVE TO WASH THEIR HANDS BECAUSE WE WANT LOCAL CONTROL.

WE CAN'T DECIDE TO SORT OF THROW CAUTION TO THE WIND BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE SOMETHING, WE WANT LOCAL CONTROL.

THAT'S NOT THE WAY OUR DEMOCRACY WORKS.

IT SIMPLY DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT'S BEST FOR YOUR COMMUNITY, FOR DEMOCRACY, AND WE HAVE TO DO WHAT'S RIGHT FOR THE COMMON GOOD, AND IN THIS CASE IT'S PROTECTING PUBLIC HEALTH, IT'S PROTECTING KIDS.

AND THE LAST THING I'LL SAY, GENE, IS YOU KNOW, THE NEW DATA IS SHOWING THAT MORE KIDS ARE GETTING SUBJECTED TO THIS, AND MOST OF THEM ARE DOING FINE, BUT THERE ARE A FEW WHO ARE HAVING SERIOUS LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES, AND I HOPE FOLKS WHO ARE JUST SO ADAMANT AGAINST WEARING MASKS OR ADAMANT AGAINST GETTING VACCINATIONS WILL THINK ABOUT THOSE UNDER 12 KIDS WHO ARE GOING TO BE REALLY DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTED AS WE GO FORWARD IN TERMS OF NEW CASES.

>> Laura: GENE, ON THE VERGE OF THE APPROVAL, THE OFFICIAL APPROVAL FROM FDA ON THE PFIZER VACCINE, I JUST HEARD THIS MORNING AS OF THE TIME OF THIS TAPING ON THURSDAY THAT THAT WAS REALLY EXPECTED ANY DAY NOW, SO I'M WONDERING IF THAT'S GOING TO CHANGE THINGS.

I'M HOPING IT WILL, THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE ARGUMENT ABOUT HOW THIS WAS NOT AN APPROVED VACCINE WILL NOW CHANGE THEIR TUNE.

THEY REALLY NEED TO GET ON BOARD, BECAUSE THERE'S NO POINT IN PLAYING WITH YOUR LIFE LIKE THIS.

>> Gene: GLAD YOU GOT THAT IN THERE.

I HAVE A LOT OF FRIENDS ON FACEBOOK WHO HUNG EVERYTHING ON THIS FDA THING.

LIKE EVERYTHING IS ON THIS.

TOM, ERIC BROUGHT UP REPUBLICANS A SECOND AGO, AND I'VE GOT TO ASK YOU, THEY WERE SWIFT TO CRITICIZE THE GOVERNOR, AND HOPEFUL CHALLENGER FOR THE GOP, JAY BLOCK, SAYS HE IS GOING TO SUE THE GOVERNOR ON BEHALF OF STATE EMPLOYEES.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE LEGAL STANDING FOR HIM THERE.

LAURA MIGHT HAVE A THOUGHT ON THAT.

BUT THE ELECTION IS MORE THAN A YEAR AWAY.

DOES THIS ISSUE HAVE LEGS?

>> Tom: YES.

I MEAN, EVERY ISSUE RIGHT NOW HAS LEGS.

IN ESSENCE, YOU HAVE AN OUTGOING PUBLIC EDUCATION SECRETARY WHO I THINK IS ON THE JOB FOR ANOTHER TWO WEEKS, WHO HAS NOW SUSPENDED MEMBERS OF TWO DIFFERENT SCHOOL BOARDS, SO THAT WILL DEFINITELY GET TRACTION AT LEAST IN THOSE TWO AREAS.

LOS LUNAS AND THEN AGAIN IN FLOYD.

SO I MEAN, YEAH, THIS IS THE TYPE OF STUFF THAT POLITICAL STRATEGISTS LOVE BECAUSE THEY FIGURE, WELL, WHAT'S THAT BASE GOING TO BE.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO TWO THINGS AS FAR AS THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE.

LIVES AND BUSINESS.

FROM LIVES, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE THING THAT THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE HAS BEEN REALLY SUCCESSFUL AT DOING, IS SHOWING HOW THEIR ACTIONS HAVE HELPED TO PREVENT ADDITIONAL LOSS OF LIFE AND HOW IT'S BEEN A BENEFIT FOR NEW MEXICO RESIDENTS.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, THE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT HOW IT'S IMPACTED SMALL BUSINESS AND ECONOMIC LIVELIHOOD.

SO THIS ISSUE WITH THE FLOYD PUBLIC SCHOOLS WILL DEFINITELY GET A LOT OF ATTENTION, BUT, YEAH, IT'LL BE THROWN INTO THE MIX AND USED BY BOTH SIDES RESPECTIVELY.

>> Gene: I'D HAVE TO AGREE WITH THAT.

LAURA, JUST A COUPLE MORE MINUTES HERE, OR A LITTLE LESS THAN THAT.

CAN WE CONSIDER VACCINATIONS IN THE SAME LIGHT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

WILL GETTING A COVID VACCINE OR BOOSTER SHOT REALLY BE A BIG DEAL NEXT YEAR?

IS THE OPPOSITION TO THEM LASTING?

AND I ASK THIS IN THIS CONTEXT.

THERE IS DATA OUT THERE THAT SHOWS THERE ARE FOLKS INCREASING THE TAKE RATE FOR VACCINATIONS IN THE SOUTHEASTERN PART OF THE COUNTRY, PLACES WHERE THEY'RE REALLY GETTING HAMMERED.

THE MESSAGE IS STARTING TO PUNCH THROUGH FOR SOME FOLKS AND THEY'RE GETTING VACCINATIONS.

CAN WE GET THERE IN NEW MEXICO, AS WELL, WITH THE WAY WE'RE DOING IT NOW?

>> Laura: WELL, I THINK NEW MEXICO IN SOME WAYS, LIKE WE'RE SO ISOLATED A LOT OF TIMES FROM THE REALITY.

WE DON'T HAVE THE URBAN AREAS WHERE IT'S SUCH -- IN THE SOUTHEAST, IN PARTICULAR, YES, THERE WERE CASES, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE FELT LIKE IT WASN'T REALLY HITTING THEM IN THE SAME WAY.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, IN ORDER FOR PEOPLE TO REALLY JUMP ON BOARD, THEY'RE GOING TO NEED TO KNOW PEOPLE WHO DIED, KNOW PEOPLE WHO WERE AFFECTED AND WERE IMPACTED.

AND I'M SURE MANY OF US KNOW.

I KNOW SEVERAL PEOPLE WHO DIED AS A RESULT OF COVID.

SO I DO THINK THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE WHILE, BUT I HAVE TO HOPE THAT BY NEXT YEAR THIS TIME, MORE PEOPLE WILL HAVE GOTTEN ON BOARD, THAT IT BECOMES ROUTINE.

BUT ALSO, THOUGH, IT'S FAIR TO POINT OUT, AS WELL, THERE'S PLENTY OF ANTI-VAXXERS OUT THERE ABOUT ALL THE OTHER VACCINES, AS WELL.

I MEAN, I THINK ROBERT KENNEDY, JR. IS ONE OF THE ANTI-VAXXERS.

SO AS LONG AS THERE'S PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO HAVE FEAR ABOUT VACCINATIONS IN GENERAL, WE'RE STILL GOING TO SEE SOME OF THIS.

I THINK WHAT'S TROUBLING WITH THIS, WITH WHERE WE ARE NOW WITH IT, IS IT'S SUCH A POLITICIZED THING.

IT'S NOT EVEN ABOUT THE SCIENCE OR THE HEALTH, IT'S LIKE IT'S A TRUMP THING, IT'S A CONSERVATIVE THING, WHICH IS IRONIC BECAUSE TRUMP AND HIS FAMILY WERE ONE OF THE FIRST ONES TO GET THE VACCINE.

>> Eric: AND HE DEVELOPED AND HE RUSHED THE VACCINE THROUGH.

LIKE, HE TOOK CREDIT FOR GETTING THE VACCINE OUT THE DOOR.

>> Laura: SO HOW CAN THIS BE A POLITICAL THING?

IT'S REALLY FRUSTRATING.

>> Gene: WE'LL HAVE TO STOP THE CONVERSATION HERE FOR TIME.

UP NEXT, WE HAVE AN INTERVIEW WITH CONGRESSWOMAN TERESA LEGER-FERNANDEZ.

THEN THIS GROUP IS BACK TO TALK ABOUT STAFFING TROUBLE AT A KEY LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE.

>> Laura: SO SOME THINGS DO NEED TO BE KEPT CONFIDENTIAL, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU WANT AS MUCH TRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE IN THIS, BECAUSE IF YOU'RE NOT BEING TRANSPARENT, IF THE PUBLIC OR EVEN MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE FEEL LIKE THEY'RE BEING LEFT OUT, THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE QUESTION, ARE YOU TRYING TO PROTECT SOMEBODY?

>> Gene: TERESA LEGER-FERNANDEZ IS IN HER FIRST TERM REPRESENTING NEW MEXICO'S 3rd CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.

IT'S A SAFE SEAT FOR DEMOCRATS, WHICH MEANS THE CONGRESSWOMAN CAN PAY A LOT OF ATTENTION TO HER POLICY PRIORITIES.

FOR ALL DEMOCRATS IN WASHINGTON RIGHT NOW, THOUGH, INFRASTRUCTURE IS JOB ONE.

SENIOR PRODUCER MATT GRUBS SPOKE TO REPRESENTATIVE LEGER-FERNANDEZ ABOUT HOW TO MAY FOR HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS, EVEN TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PROJECTS.

THEY ALSO SPOKE WITH IMMIGRATION REFORM AND, OF COURSE, THE RESURGENCE OF COVID-19.

>> Matt: REPRESENTATIVE LEGER-FERNANDEZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: I LOVE COMING HERE AND I LOVE SO THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

>> Matt: ABSOLUTELY.

I WANTED TO START WITH INFRASTRUCTURE.

IN YOUR CAMPAIGN AND SINCE YOU'VE TAKEN OFFICE, YOU'VE HAD THE JOY OF DRIVING AROUND YOUR GIGANTIC DISTRICT, BUT YOU KNOW THE IMPORTANCE OF DECLINING INFRASTRUCTURE.

CERTAINLY THE ROADS THAT YOU DRIVE ON, THE BRIDGES THAT YOU GO OVER AND UNDER, ALSO BROADBAND, AS YOU VISIT SOME OF THESE FAR-FLUNG COMMUNITIES.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT WHAT'S IN, TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU'VE SEEN IT, THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL THAT THE SENATE WILL BE CONSIDERING HERE IN SHORT ORDER?

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: WE HAVE TO ADDRESS INFRASTRUCTURE WITH A REALLY BOLD, BOLD PLAN, AND THAT'S WHAT WE ARE WORKING ON IN THE HOUSE AND THAT'S WHAT WE ARE GOING TO WORK ON WHEN WE LOOK AT THE TOTALITY OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE PACKAGE.

SO WHAT THE SENATE IS WORKING ON RIGHT NOW IS GOING TO BE ONE ASPECT OF HOW WE ADDRESS INFRASTRUCTURE.

LET ME TALK ABOUT WHAT WE DID IN THE HOUSE.

SO IN THE HOUSE, WE PASSED THE INVEST IN AMERICA ACT.

THE INVEST IN AMERICA ACT WAS SIGNIFICANT IN THAT IT INCLUDED A LOT OF VERY IMPORTANT CLIMATE CHANGE ISSUES, SO THAT WE COULD HAVE MORE ELECTRIC CHARGING STATIONS, SO WE COULD ADDRESS THE MOMENT THAT WE'RE IN WITH THE NECESSARY FUNDING THAT WE NEED.

AND INDEED, IN THAT, IN THE INVEST IN AMERICA PACKAGE, I SECURED $20 MILLION FOR THIS BROAD DISTRICT, WHICH INCLUDED FIXING THE BRIDGES SO THAT THE NAVAJO CHILDREN CAN RIDE A SCHOOL BUS TO SCHOOL.

BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, THEY CAN'T.

SO THE SUPERMAN BRIDGES ARE GOING TO BE FIXED.

THAT'S THE KIND OF THING WE NEED TO DO, IS ADDRESS ALL THOSE VERY SMALL THINGS, LIKE FIXING THE BRIDGES SO THE CHILDREN CAN GET TO SCHOOL, TO THE LARGER ISSUES OF, WE MUST START LOOKING AT OUR INFRASTRUCTURE AS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR BOTH MEETING THE NEEDS WE HAVE IN THIS MOMENT AS WELL AS THE BIGGER MOMENTS.

THAT'S WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT IN THE HOUSE.

THE SENATE BIPARTISAN PLAN HAS MANY ELEMENTS OF THOSE, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.

SO WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS TAKE THOSE, TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT IT, I'VE BEEN GIVING FEEDBACK TO OUR SENATORS, WE HAVE BEEN GIVING FEEDBACK TO THE SENATE WITH SOME OF THE BILLS THAT WE'VE INTRODUCED AND PASSED, LIKE BROADBAND.

BIG BROADBAND FAN, OF GETTING MORE OF IT INTO THE GROUND.

SO WE HAVE A BROADBAND BILL, AND MANY OF THOSE ASPECTS OF THAT BILL ARE BEING INCORPORATED INTO THAT SENATE BIPARTISAN PACKAGE.

BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT IT DOESN'T GO FAR ENOUGH, WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS LOOK AT THE RECONCILIATION PROCESS AND INCLUDE WHAT WE NEED IN THE RECONCILIATION PACKAGE.

WE NEED AMERICANS AND NEW MEXICANS TO REALIZE THAT THIS ISN'T IT, BECAUSE IT'S NOT BIG ENOUGH.

>> Matt: YOU MENTIONED THAT PACKAGE.

IT'S EXTREMELY SIZABLE, HUGE.

$3.5 TRILLION, AS IT'S BEING TALKED ABOUT NOW, AND IT WOULD INCLUDE THAT BROADER SORT OF DEFINITION OF INFRASTRUCTURE, THINGS LIKE CHILD CARE, HEALTH CARE, THAT SORT OF THING.

IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE THAT YOU CAN PAY FOR THAT WITHOUT RAISING TAXES.

I THINK THE QUESTION IS PROBABLY ON WHO.

AS YOU LOOK AT FUNDING SOMETHING THAT SIZE, HOW DO YOU FAVOR DOING THAT?

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: I AM IN FAVOR OF THE PLAN THAT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING, WHICH IS WHERE NO ONE WHO EARNS LESS THAN $400,000 -- THAT'S EARNS LESS THAN $400,000 A YEAR -- WOULD SEE ANY INCREASE.

SO WHAT YOU WOULD SEE IS NEW MEXICANS, THE VAST MAJORITY OF NEW MEXICANS WOULD NOT SEE ANY INCREASE.

IN FACT, THEY WOULD SEE A DECREASE IN THEIR TAXES, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE MAKE PERMANENT THE CHILD TAX CREDIT, THE EARNED INCOME TAX CREDIT.

THOSE BENEFIT THE WORKING FAMILIES, THE MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES OF NEW MEXICO.

BUT FOR THOSE WHO ARE BILLIONAIRES, FOR THOSE CORPORATIONS WHO EARN BILLIONS AND DON'T PAY A DIME IN TAXES, THEY WILL SEE FAIR TAXATION.

EVERYBODY MUST PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE, AND WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT CORPORATIONS CAN'T AVOID PAYING TAXES, BECAUSE LET'S FACE IT, BIG CORPORATIONS LIKE AMAZON, THEY ENJOY THE BENEFITS OF WHAT OUR AMERICAN GOVERNMENT PROVIDES.

BILLIONAIRES SAW THEIR INCOME SKYROCKET DURING THE PANDEMIC.

WE NEED TO HAVE THEM PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE.

SO THAT'S HOW WE'RE GOING TO PAY FOR THAT.

>> Matt: THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID THAT HE'S WILLING TO USE THAT RECONCILIATION PROCESS ALSO TO ADDRESS IMMIGRATION.

SPECIFICALLY, DACA AND DEALING WITH THE DREAMERS, AS WELL.

IMMIGRATION ISN'T TYPICALLY THOUGHT OF AS SOMETHING THAT'S A BUDGET-RELATED ISSUE NECESSARILY.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT APPROACH?

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: IT IS ABSOLUTELY THE RIGHT APPROACH.

LISTEN, I WORKED ON THE IMMIGRATION REFORM AND CONTROL ACT BACK IN MY EARLY DAYS, WHEN I WAS STILL ACTUALLY A LAW STUDENT.

WE DID SOME AMAZING WORK AROUND THAT.

AND THAT WAS A $1.4 TRILLION BENEFIT TO THE ECONOMY.

WE ARE SEEING THE SAME THING WHEN WE LOOK AT DOING IMMIGRATION REFORM.

IT'S ABOUT THE SAME, A $1.3 TRILLION BENEFIT TO OUR ECONOMY.

$700 A YEAR INCREASE IN EVERYBODY'S WAGES.

WE WOULD ADD SIX YEARS TO THE SOLVENCY OF SOCIAL SECURITY.

SO TO LOOK AT IMMIGRATION AS AN ECONOMIC BENEFIT AND THAT SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN A RECONCILIATION BILL, WHICH IS LOOKING AT BUDGET, IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

SO WE KNOW THAT IMMIGRATION MAKES SENSE FROM AN ECONOMIC STANDPOINT, THEN YOU HAVE TO ASK, WELL, THEN WHY DO PEOPLE OPPOSE IT?

AND IT SHOULDN'T BE OPPOSED ON AN ECONOMIC STANCE.

IT SHOULDN'T BE OPPOSED ON A HUMANITARIAN STANCE.

I HAVE BEEN TO THE BORDER.

I HAVE SEEN THE CHILDREN WHOSE PARENTS HAVE SENT TO SAFETY, AND I NEED TO TELL YOU WHAT IT REMINDED ME.

IT REMINDED ME OF A STORY THAT IS AS OLD AS THE BIBLE, ITSELF.

MOSES' MOTHER PLACED HER BABY IN A BASKET AND SENT HIM DOWN THE NILE TO GET HIM TO SAFETY.

WE ARE LOOKING AT PARENTS AND AT FAMILIES THAT ARE FLEEING VIOLENCE AND THAT ARE FEARFUL FOR THEIR LIVES, AND WE MUST PROVIDE THEM WITH THE ASYLUM AND THE REFUGE THAT OUR LAWS PROVIDE.

AND IF WE DON'T POLITICIZE THE ISSUE, THEN WE'D BE ABLE TO JUST DO THAT AS A MATTER OF COURSE.

IF WE DIDN'T POLITICIZE THE ISSUE, THEN WE WOULD SEE THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS OF IMMIGRATION AND BE ABLE TO PASS IT IN REGULAR ORDER.

BUT BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GETTING THAT SUPPORT, EVEN AMONG REPUBLICANS WHO WANT IT, WHO ARE AFRAID TO COME OUT IN FAVOR OF IT, WE'LL HAVE TO DO IT THROUGH RECONCILIATION.

BUT IT WORKS BECAUSE IT'S AN ECONOMIC BENEFIT TO THE NATION.

>> Matt: SHOULD THE PATH TO CITIZENSHIP INCLUDE PREFERRED STATUS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY HERE?

AND IF SO, WOULDN'T THE NEWS THAT THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN CREATE A FURTHER RUSH TO THE BORDER FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GET ACROSS BEFORE THAT LAW PASSES?

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: SO THE WAY THE AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP ACT IS SET UP, IT WOULD NOT CREATE THAT RUSH TO THE BORDER, BECAUSE IT DOES HAVE A DEADLINE AS TO WHEN YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO APPLY.

AND LOOKING AT THE DACA, OUR WONDERFUL DREAMERS WHO ARE OUR DOCTORS, OUR FUTURE DOCTORS AND CONGRESS PEOPLE, DR. RAUL RUIZ WAS BROUGHT HERE AS A CHILD, UNDOCUMENTED.

HE WAS A DREAMER OF THE PAST, AND HE IS NOW THE CHAIR OF THE CONGRESSIONAL SPANISH CAUCUS.

SO WHAT WE'RE DOING IS THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN HERE, WHO WERE BROUGHT HERE AS CHILDREN, WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING HERE AND BEEN PROVIDING THE ESSENTIAL SERVICES FOR US, THEY ARE THE ONES THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

IT'S ABOUT 11 MILLION PEOPLE RIGHT NOW.

>> Matt: OKAY.

RANCH OWNERS, COUNTY GOVERNMENTS DOWN SOUTH ALONG THE BORDER, THEY'RE EXTREMELY WORRIED ABOUT INCREASED ILLEGAL BORDER CROSSINGS.

HOW WOULD THE PLAN, AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT, ADDRESS SOME OF THOSE CONCERNS ABOUT SAFETY, BOTH FOR THE MIGRANTS AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE ON OR NEAR THE BORDER?

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: IF WE HAD AN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM THAT WAS WORKING, THEN THERE WOULD BE A MANNER AND A WAY FOR IMMIGRANTS TO PRESENT THEMSELVES AND TO GO THROUGH AN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

WE DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT NOW.

THINK OF ELLIS ISLAND, RIGHT.

THERE USED TO BE A WAY WHERE IF YOU WANTED TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES, THEN YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT.

NOW, THAT WAS WHEN YOU WERE COMING FROM EUROPE.

WHY DON'T WE HAVE THE SAME THING WHEN YOU'RE COMING FROM THE AMERICAS?

SO WE NEED TO SET THAT UP SO THAT THERE'S A SYSTEM AND A PROCESS FOR PRESENTING YOURSELF FOR IMMIGRATION, FOR ASYLUM CASES AT THE BORDER.

AND IF WE DID THAT, THAT WOULD RELIEVE SOME OF THE PRESSURE OF PEOPLE TRYING TO CROSS IN VERY DANGEROUS SITUATIONS.

YOU KNOW, IN THE DESERT, IN PLACES WHERE THERE IS NOT ENOUGH WATER, TRYING TO SCALE A WALL AND DROPPING DOWN.

SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS CREATE AN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM WHERE YOU CAN ACTUALLY PRESENT AND SEEK THE IMMIGRATION STATUS THAT YOU WANT AT THE BORDER.

>> Matt: I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT COVID, BUT I ALSO DON'T WANT TO LET THIS PASS.

YOU ASKED THE QUESTION, WHY DON'T WE HAVE A SYSTEM LIKE ELLIS ISLAND FOR IMMIGRATION FROM THE AMERICAS.

DO YOU HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THAT?

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: I THINK IT'S BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN POLITICIZED AND THEY HAVE SOUGHT TO DEMONIZE ANOTHER IN ORDER TO GET POLITICAL GAIN.

THEY HAVE SOUGHT TO DEMONIZE MEXICANS AND LATINOS.

IT'S ABOUT BIGOTRY, IT'S ABOUT RACISM.

>> Matt: THE FDA RIGHT NOW, AS WE SPEAK, THEY'RE TRYING TO BALANCE THIS IDEA OF SOLID SCIENCE AND GIVE AT LEAST THE PERCEPTION THAT, LOOK, THIS PROCESS WASN'T RUSHED.

BUT THEY'RE ALSO GETTING LOTS OF PRESSURE FROM EMPLOYERS, FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, STATE GOVERNMENTS, INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO, WHERE WE ARE NOW, TO GET THAT APPROVAL, THAT FULL APPROVAL OF VACCINES.

SPECIFICALLY, THE mRNA1s.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE TIMING OF THAT PROCESS AND THE EFFORT TO LET PEOPLE KNOW, HEY, WE'RE NOT DOING THIS JUST OFF THE CUFF, THIS IS BEING STUDIED?

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE HAD MILLIONS OF PEOPLE VACCINATED, BOTH IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THE WORLD.

LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN BRITAIN AND ISRAEL AND THE EU COUNTRIES.

SO WE HAVE ACTUALLY A LOT OF DATA THAT THIS WORKS.

IT IS RIGHT NOW NOT A FULL APPROVAL, BUT IT IS AN APPROVAL THAT IS DEMONSTRATING TO THE WORLD THAT VACCINATION WORKS, THAT IT'S SAFE, AND THAT THIS IS HOW WE PROTECT OUR COMMUNITY, THIS IS HOW WE PROTECT THOSE CHILDREN WHO CAN'T GET VACCINATED, THIS IS HOW WE PROTECT IMMUNOCOMPROMISED PEOPLE THAT MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO GET VACCINATED.

SO RATHER THAN TRYING TO LAY YOUR HAND ON DIFFERENT REASONS WHY YOU DON'T WANT TO GET VACCINATED, SET THAT ASIDE AND THINK ABOUT THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND THINK ABOUT YOUR COMMUNITY.

THE VACCINATION WORKS.

I GOT VACCINATED BACK IN JANUARY, BECAUSE I FLY BACK AND FORTH, AND FOR THE CONTINUATION OF GOVERNMENT, WE NEEDED EVERY VOTE TO BE ABLE TO PASS OUR BILLS AND DO OUR JOB.

I'M FINE.

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE FINE.

DON'T SEEK REASONS WHY NOT TO DO IT, THINK ABOUT WHY YOU MIGHT WANT TO DO IT.

I MEAN, WE NEED TO REMEMBER THAT VACCINES HAVE BEEN SAVING LIVES FOR MORE THAN A CENTURY, RIGHT.

WE'VE HAD A LONG TIME OF VACCINES SAVING OUR LIVES FROM SMALL POX TO CHICKEN POX.

THERE'S A RANGE OF THINGS THAT WE USE THE VACCINES FOR.

WE HAVE OUR CHILDREN GET VACCINES EVERY YEAR.

I USED TO GO GET MY KIDS VACCINATED, BECAUSE OTHERWISE I CAN'T ENROLL THEM IN SCHOOL.

THIS IS VERY SIMILAR.

WE'RE TRYING TO SAVE LIVES AND WE'RE TRYING TO KEEP THE COMMUNITY SAFE.

SO I ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY TO GET A VACCINE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

DO IT FOR YOURSELF, DO IT FOR THOSE CHILDREN, DO IT FOR YOUR NEIGHBORS.

>> Matt: WHEN YOU WALKED IN, WE ALL HAD MASKS ON.

WE'RE DISTANCED NOW.

WE'VE RETURNED TO MASKING WHILE AT WORK, EXCEPT IN SOME RARE CIRCUMSTANCES.

DO YOU FORESEE THE NEED FOR MORE MASK MANDATES, SO TO SPEAK, OR ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WEARING MASKS NOW THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO BE WEARING MASKS REGARDLESS?

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: I THINK MASK MANDATES MAKE SENSE IF SCIENCE CALLS FOR THEM AND THE FACT THAT WE HAVE SO MANY UNVACCINATED PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE GOING TO D.C., RIGHT.

D.C. HAS LOW TRANSMISSION RATES, BUT WE ALSO SEE PEOPLE FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

SO THEY'RE COMING FROM PLACES WHERE THEY HAVE VERY LOW VACCINATION RATES, SO WEARING THE MASK HELPS AND WE NEED TO REMEMBER, IF WE ALL WEAR THE MASK AND WE ALL GET VACCINATED, WE'LL GET THROUGH THIS FASTER.

SO RATHER THAN FIGHTING IT, HELP US GET THROUGH IT FASTER.

GET VACCINATED, WEAR THE MASK UNTIL WE GET OUT OF THIS.

THAT WAY WE GET THROUGH IT FASTER.

YOU KNOW, I HEARD AN INTERVIEW WITH SOMEBODY WHO HAD A BUSINESS TODAY, AND IT RESONATED, WHERE HE SAID, "I'M GOING TO DO THE MASK MANDATE, I'M GOING TO FOLLOW IT, BECAUSE THIS IS HOW I MAKE SURE MY BUSINESS DOESN'T GET CLOSED AGAIN."

IF WE WANT OUR BUSINESSES TO STAY OPEN, IF WE WANT OUR SCHOOLS TO STAY OPEN, IF WE WANT OUR COMMUNITY TO BE VIBRANT AND LIVELY, THEN WE DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO MOVE PAST THIS PANDEMIC, AND THAT INCLUDES MASKS AND THAT INCLUDES VACCINATIONS AND THAT INCLUDES TESTING.

I'M DOING REGULAR TESTS NOW BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ME TO KNOW, AM I GOING TO BE PUTTING ANYBODY AT RISK, DESPITE THE FACT THAT I'M DOUBLE VACCINATED.

I THINK WE ALL DO WHATEVER WE CAN TO HELP PROTECT EACH OTHER.

>> Matt: CONGRESSWOMAN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> Rep. Leger-Fernandez: Thank You!

>> Gene: RACHEL GUDGEL IS ONE OF THOSE NAMES YOU SHOULD NOT KNOW.

SHE'S THE DIRECTOR OF THE LEGISLATIVE EDUCATION STUDY COMMITTEE, A POWERFUL YEAR-ROUND BODY THAT HAS HUGE INFLUENCE OVER THE BIGGEST CHUNK OF NEW MEXICO'S BUDGET EVERY YEAR.

AFTER USING TERMS LIKE POWWOW AND SMOKE SIGNALS DESPITE APPARENT PUSHBACK FROM STAFF, MS. GUDGEL ALLEGEDLY SAID, "IT'S NOT LIKE MAKING BEADED SANDALS IS GOING TO IMPROVE STUDENT OUTCOMES," WHILE AT A MEETING ON THE JICARILLA APACHE NATION.

THAT PROMPTED LOUD COMPLAINTS, A PERSONNEL INVESTIGATION, AND AN ONGOING DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR MEANT SHE COULD KEEP HER JOB, WHICH SHE HAS.

MS. GUDGEL LAST WEEK APOLOGIZED FOR, IN HER WORDS, INSULTING AND HARMFUL COMMENTS SHE MADE.

HER HOPE IS TO MOVE FORWARD WITH HER JOB, AND BY A RECENT VOTE, THE COMMITTEE DEADLOCKED BUT EVEN AFTER THAT APOLOGY WENT OUT, NATIVE LEADERS HELD A NEWS CONFERENCE TO UNDERSCORE THE HURT ATTACHED TO THAT KIND OF THINKING, INCLUDING POWERFUL REMARKS FROM WILHELMINA YAZZIE, THE WOMAN WHO IS PART OF THE YAZZIE-MARTINEZ LAWSUIT.

>> Ms. Yazzie: CHILDREN ARE STARVED OF EQUAL OPPORTUNITY IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM.

I EXPERIENCED IT.

MORE SO MY SISTER EXPERIENCE IT.

ALL PARENTS EXPERIENCED IT.

AND WE'RE STILL EXPERIENCING THAT.

AND EVEN EVER MORE SO WITH THE PANDEMIC, EVERYTHING JUST CAME ABOUT.

SO IT'S THERE, WE SEE IT.

AND MOST OF ALL, CULTURALLY RELEVANT EDUCATION IS CRITICAL RIGHT NOW.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAT, WE'VE BEEN, YOU KNOW, ASKING TO IMPLEMENT THAT INTO OUR PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM, AND ESPECIALLY NOW WITH MS. GUDGEL MAKING THESE DISPARAGING REMARKS AGAINST OUR CHILDREN, THAT IS VERY HEARTBREAKING, ESPECIALLY FOR SOMEONE IN HIGH POWER TO REALLY REFLECT ON OUR CHILDREN IN THAT WAY.

TO MAKE FUN OF MY CHILDREN, OUR CHILDREN, THAT'S VERY HEARTBREAKING.

YOU KNOW, AS A PARENT, AS A MOTHER, YOU WANT THE BEST FOR YOUR CHILDREN.

I DON'T EVER WANT ANYONE TO MAKE FUN OF MY CHILDREN, OR EVEN MYSELF, BECAUSE OF WHERE I COME FROM, WHO I AM, WHAT I BELIEVE AND SUCH, AND NOBODY SHOULD EVER GO THROUGH THAT, ESPECIALLY OUR AS A MOTHER, WE'RE THERE TO HELP THEM AND PROVIDE FOR THEM, AND LEAD THEM AND SET THEM ON THE PATH OF LIFE, OF ENOUGH, IN MY NAVAJO WAY.

SO THAT'S WHY AS A MOTHER HERE, YOU KNOW, WITH THIS WHOLE -- MS. GUDGEL, YES, SHE MADE AN APOLOGY, BUT I WANT HER TO MAKE THAT APOLOGY INTO ACTION, FOR HER TO COME BACK AND MAKE THINGS RIGHT IN OUR WAY.

IN NAVAJO, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THAT BALANCE, THAT HARMONY.

WE WANT THAT BALANCE BACK FOR OUR CHILDREN.

RIGHT NOW THAT BALANCE IS OFF BECAUSE WE HAVE PEOPLE IN HIGH POWER THAT AREN'T TAKING MY CHILDREN, OUR CHILDREN, SERIOUSLY.

AND RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, WE WANT OUR CHILDREN TO BE EQUAL, TO BE LOOKED UPON EQUALLY, TO BE INCLUDED, TO BE VIEWED HOLISTICALLY AS ALL OF THESE OTHER LEADERS AND REPRESENTATIVES THAT HAVE SPOKE.

YOU KNOW, IT'S MORE THAN JUST BEING A HUMAN BEING, IT'S THE UNIVERSE.

EVERYTHING AROUND US.

WE ARE SPIRITUAL PEOPLE, AND THAT'S HOW WE VIEW OUR CHILDREN.

OUR CHILDREN ARE SPIRITUAL FROM THE TIME THEY'RE CONCEIVED UNTIL THE TIME THEY GO ON THEIR OWN INTO ADULTHOOD.

AND WITH THAT, YOU KNOW, JUST -- WE NEED ACTION.

>> Gene: ERIC, LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING.

HEARING THAT, IS IT TOO LATE FOR APOLOGIES?

DOES THE LESC JUST NEED TO SAY THERE'S BEEN TOO MUCH DAMAGE >> Eric: YOU KNOW, I RESPECT THE FACT THAT SHE APOLOGIZED, AND IT SOUNDED LIKE A PRETTY CLEAR APOLOGY, BUT LOOK, THIS IS A REALLY POWERFUL POSITION, AS YOU SAID IN THE INTRO.

IT'S HALF OF THE STATE BUDGET.

WE HAVE AN UNPAID PART-TIME LEGISLATURE, SO SENIOR STAFF LIKE THIS HAVE ENORMOUS INFLUENCE.

AND THIS IS EDUCATION.

THIS IS THE GROUP THAT TRIES TO MAKE THE BEST DECISIONS FOR OUR EDUCATION POLICIES FOR KIDS, INCLUDING NATIVE KIDS.

AND AS WE KNOW, THE YAZZIE LAWSUIT AND A LOT OF THE CHALLENGES WE'VE HAD IN THE NATIVE COMMUNITIES FOR NATIVE KIDS ARE AMONG THE TOUGHEST IN THE STATE, AND WE REALLY TRIED TO DOUBLE-DOWN TO SOLVE SOME OF THOSE PROBLEMS.

TO HAVE, I THINK, CARELESS -- WHETHER SHE THOUGHT THEY WERE HARMLESS OR NOT, OR NOT SORT OF MALICIOUS, I THINK THEY HAVE REAL CONSEQUENCES, AND I THINK IT'S A REMINDER FOR ALL OF US, WE HAVE TO BE REALLY CAREFUL ABOUT HOW WE CHARACTERIZE -- YOU KNOW, I'VE HEARD PEOPLE USE, LIKE, LET'S HAVE A POWWOW AND THINK IT'S HARMLESS, AND IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS I'VE HAD NATIVE COLLEAGUES SAY, WELL, THAT'S NOT APPROPRIATE, WHICH IS GOOD.

TELL ME TO BE CORRECT.

BUT THE COMMENT ABOUT THE SANDALS, I THINK, IN THE CONTEXT IN WHICH IT WAS MADE, I THINK REALLY JUST BEGS THE QUESTION, DOES SHE UNDERSTAND HER POSITION AND THE POWER AND THE LEADERSHIP REQUIRED, GIVEN THAT IT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF OUR STATE AND ALSO, JUST RESPECTING THE VOICES WHO ARE PRETTY WELL YOU KNOW, REGIS PECOS, WHO WAS A LONG-TIME CHIEF OF STAFF TO THE SPEAKER, A VERY WELL-RESPECTED NATIVE LEADER NATIONALLY, RESIGNED FROM THE COMMITTEE OVER IT, AND I RESPECT HIS DECISION.

SO I THINK IT'S PRETTY SERIOUS AND I HOPE THEY'LL TAKE SOME PRETTY DECISIVE ACTION AND NOT TRY TO KICK IT DOWN THE ROAD.

>> Gene: TOM, LAWMAKERS USED TAXPAYER FUNDING TO INVESTIGATE MS. GUDGEL, AND MILAN SIMONICH OVER AT THE NEW MEXICAN HAS BEEN REALLY AFTER THIS STORY.

HE WAS VERY CRITICAL OF SENATOR BILL SOULES' CHOICE TO BLOCK 21 NONVOTING ADVISORY MEMBERS -- LEGISLATORS, MIND YOU -- FROM HEARING THE RESULTS OF THAT INVESTIGATION.

MY QUESTION: WAS THAT A MISTAKE ON HIS PART?

SHOULD THE INVESTIGATION BE PUBLIC?

>> Tom: WELL, REMEMBER, FIRST AND FOREMOST, THIS IS A PERSONNEL ISSUE.

RACHEL GUDGEL -- AND SHE AND I HAVE ACTUALLY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK TOGETHER WHEN WE WERE BOTH WORKING AT THE LEGISLATURE THROUGH LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL SERVICES.

HER PLIGHT RIGHT NOW IS TRULY PERSONNEL, FROM HER PERSPECTIVE.

I THINK MS. YAZZIE, DEFINITELY HER REMARKS ARE VERY HEARTFELT, VERY PERSONAL AS FAR AS REFLECTING THE HURT THAT HAS BEEN INFLICTED BY RACHEL GUDGEL'S COMMENTS, AND RACHEL HAS APOLOGIZED AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS TWO YEARS AGO.

AND DURING THAT TIME, RACHEL HAS REALLY, I THINK, TAKEN THAT TIME TO REALLY EXPLORE A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE BACKGROUND OF NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES, VISITING PUEBLOS AND ALSO ONE OF THE RESERVATIONS JUST TO KIND OF, ON HER OWN TIME, LEARN MORE ABOUT THE CULTURE.

AND FOR THAT, I THINK SHE NEEDS TO BE APPLAUDED, BUT IT DOESN'T EXCUSE, AT ALL, THE VERY HURTFUL COMMENTS THAT SHE HAS HELD HERSELF ACCOUNTABLE FOR.

>> Gene: LAURA, MS. GUDGEL, AS TOM MENTIONED, HAS APOLOGIZED, AND SHE CALLED THE EXPERIENCE HUMBLING.

SHE'S SPOKEN TO SOME NATIVE LEADERS IN PERSON.

THAT HAS TO MEAN SOMETHING.

CAN SOMETHING GOOD COME OUT OF THIS, OR SHOULD SHE BE GIVEN A SHORT LEASH TO GO FORWARD AND TRY TO USE THE EXPERIENCE TO FOCUS ON BETTER SERVING NATIVE COMMUNITIES?

CAN SOMETHING BE SPUN OUT OF THIS THAT'S BETTER FOR >> Laura: WELL, I MEAN, CERTAINLY THERE'S ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY OF THAT.

I THINK THAT SHE COULD DEFINITELY GROW INTO A MUCH BETTER PERSON PERSONALLY THROUGH THE KIND OF EFFORT THAT IT SOUNDS LIKE TOM MENTIONED SHE'S GOING THROUGH.

BUT I AGREE WITH TOM, IT DOESN'T EXCUSE THE BEHAVIOR.

AND I DO THINK THAT SENATOR SOULES HAS SOME RESPONSIBILITY HERE, AS WELL.

THERE IS -- IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THERE IS A PERSONNEL ASPECT TO THIS, RIGHT.

THERE'S EMPLOYMENT MATTERS AND EMPLOYMENT ISSUES.

SO SOME THINGS DO NEED TO BE KEPT CONFIDENTIAL.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU WANT AS MUCH TRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE IN THIS, BECAUSE IF YOU'RE NOT BEING TRANSPARENT, IF THE PUBLIC OR EVEN MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE FEEL LIKE THEY'RE BEING LEFT OUT, THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE QUESTION, ARE YOU TRYING TO PROTECT SOMEBODY UNREASONABLY SO?

AND SO I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE LISTEN TO THE NATIVE VOICES, AND I THINK A LOT OF NATIVE VOICES RIGHT NOW, ESPECIALLY WITH THAT PRESS CONFERENCE THAT WAS HELD A FEW DAYS AGO, IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT THEY'RE ASKING FOR HER REMOVAL.

I MEAN IF SHE RESIGNED, I THINK IT WOULD CERTAINLY ALSO BE WELL RECEIVED.

BUT THERE HAS TO BE ACTION, THERE HAS TO BE CONSEQUENCES TO HER ACTIONS.

AND THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY, I THINK, FOR THE LEGISLATURE TO SEND A SIGNAL ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABOVEBOARD HERE, AND THAT WORDS DO MATTER, AND YOU CAN'T JUST SORT OF EXCUSE THIS SORT OF THING.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

ERIC, QUICK QUESTION.

WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE TIGHT ON TIME HERE.

BUT WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE 5-5 VOTE, OF THE TIE VOTE?

THERE'S A CYNICAL PART OF ME THAT SAYS, WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S HOW YOU GET SOMEONE BACK INTO A POSITION AND EVERYONE'S HANDS ARE CLEAN, JUST MAKE TIE VOTE.

WAS THERE A LACK OF LEADERSHIP HERE ENDING UP WITH THAT TIE WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF IT?

>> Eric: WELL, MY UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE VOTES CAME DOWN, IT WAS DEFINITELY A BIPARTISAN VOTE, SO THIS MIGHT BE A SITUATION WHERE BIPARTISANSHIP DID NOT LEAD TO THE BEST DECISION, RIGHT.

I THINK TO BOTH TOM AND LAURA'S POINT, I THINK ULTIMATELY THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO MAKE A PERSONNEL I DO THINK THERE SHOULD BE A MUCH MORE SORT OF DIRECT MECHANISM TO DISCIPLINE IN THIS CASE, AND TO LEAVE IT TO SOME POLITICS, BECAUSE THERE WERE A LOT OF POLITICS INVOLVED IN THIS DECISION, I THINK IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO RESOLVE THIS.

SO I DON'T THINK IT WAS THE BEST WAY TO DECIDE WHETHER SHE COULD STAY OR GO.

I THINK THERE SHOULD BE A MUCH MORE STREAMLINED PROCESS FOR >> Gene: TOM, REAL QUICK, IN ABOUT TEN SECONDS, IT ALMOST FEELS LIKE THIS IS THE PRC THAT WE'VE DEALT WITH FOR SO MANY YEARS.

AREN'T PEOPLE JUST SORT OF TIRED OF THIS AT THIS POINT?

>> Tom: I THINK THE PRC IS IT'S OWN -- YOU KNOW, THE PRC IS GETTING FIXED.

THE LESC, I THINK THIS IS A VERY BIG, SIGNIFICANT BLIP IN THE RADAR.

BUT THE LESC HAS ALWAYS BEEN A VERY INTEGRITY BASED ORGANIZATION, AND I THINK THAT THE ELECTED OFFICIALS WILL KEEP IT THAT WAY.

>> Gene: THERE YOU GO.

WE'RE UP AGAINST THE CLOCK THIS WEEK WITH A JAMPACKED SHOW, BUT WE APPRECIATE ALL OF YOU, OUR PANELISTS, FOR YOUR THOUGHTS THIS WEEK, AND WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN SOON.

FINAL THOUGHTS FROM ME IN A MOMENT.

>> Gene: I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO INTERVIEW ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL PRESIDENT CYNTHIA BORREGO DURING A FACEBOOK LIVE SEGMENT THIS PAST WEDNESDAY REGARDING HER PROPOSAL TO MAKE THE DITCH AND WATER SAFETY TASK FORCE TAKE A HARD LOOK AT SAFETY MEASURES FOR OUR DITCHES AND ARROYOS.

IT COMES IN RESPONSE TO THE FOUR DEATHS IN RECENT WEEKS FROM FLASH FLOODING.

AMONG THE IDEAS IS SOME SORT OF WARNING SYSTEM WHEN THERE IS DANGER IN THE DITCHES.

THE BIG QUESTION, OF COURSE, IS HOW.

THERE'S LOTS TO CONSIDER, INCLUDING SORTING OUT THE HALF DOZEN JURISDICTIONS INVOLVED WITH DITCH AND ARROYO MANAGEMENT IN SOME FORM.

NOW, THE VOTERS HAVE ALREADY SPOKEN PASSING FUNDING REQUESTS FOR SUCH A SYSTEM TWICE IN RECENT YEARS.

IT'S COMPLICATED, BUT NOTHING SMART MINDS, A REASONABLE BUDGET, AND SOME WILL CAN'T SOLVE.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US AND FOR STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK IN FOCUS.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO InFOCUS PROVIDED BY THE MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION.

AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.