[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC STING] - We are honored to be joined by David Sciarra who is former Executive Director of the Education Law Center.

Good to see you, my friend.

- Good to see you, Steve, again.

- So, by the way, background, David and I were talking before and this must be a dozen interviews we've done over the years, talking about education, talking about education financing, equity, and public education.

Tell folks, David, tell everyone, what the Education Law Center is while we put the website up.

- So actually the Education Law Center is celebrating its 50th year this year, started in 1973 in Newark by former Rutgers Law Professor Paul Trachtenberg.

- That's right.

- And known mostly for our work in New Jersey on school finance, the Abbott litigation, preschool, school buildings, all of those sorts of things.

ELC's mission is to represent public school children, only pre-K to 12, that's its sole mission.

So we are a, ELC is an advocacy organization that works on multiple levels, Steve, we, as you know, we litigate.

So we've got a legal arm, but we also do research.

We do policy, we do work with the legislature.

And most importantly, we try to engage parents and public school communities in the effort to make sure that the public schools are doing a good job for their kids.

- Let me try this.

New Jersey has been described as having among the best if not the best public school system in the country.

But here's the thing, we don't have a particularly integrated public school system.

It's incredibly bifurcated and polarized and segregated.

50 years in the Education Law Center, fighting for educational equity, more funds to urban communities, the Abbott versus Burke original Supreme Court decision that started this conversation.

What progress do you feel has been made in terms of genuinely integrating our schools, diversifying our schools?

- Oh, not much at all.

So I think you have to think about the right to education under our state constitution as really having two components.

One is and this is really what the Abbott rulings were all about.

And then we fought for the last 40 years on this, which is to make sure kids, even if they are consigned to go to school in districts that are segregated by poverty and race, that those kids get everything that they need to succeed in school today.

- Thorough and efficient education as described in the Constitution, go ahead.

- Right, so even if you're in Newark or you're in Paterson or Jersey City, Union City, these are districts which are segregated, if you will, by both poverty and race.

And our court has said despite that the state has a responsibility to give those kids what they need to succeed in school today because they're in school today and they only have one opportunity for an education.

That's the one part, the second and we've done a tremendous, let me stop there for a moment, Steve.

We've done a tremendous job in New Jersey of building equity in our system so that those kids are getting the funding they need, the resources they need.

Preschool, the Abbott Preschool Program is a national model.

We've, doing a lot of work on fixing up the dilapidated school buildings in those districts, so forth.

- Where are we falling short, David?

Where are we falling short?

- On the integration side, the diversity side, we still are one of the most, have one of the most segregated school systems in the country.

Why, it's because the way New Jersey lawmakers in Trenton through policy define where kids go to school.

So we have municipally circumscribed school districts.

You go to school in the town where you live.

We have almost 600 school districts as a result of that.

And the other consequence of that is this intense segregation by poverty and race.

And I should say, Steve, our court, Supreme Court has ruled going back to 1965, that the state has an obligation to address segregation in the public schools and create more opportunities for children to attend schools that are more diverse.

We just simply haven't done a lot on that.

Last thing I'll say on this is- - Let me also say, David, as you're saying this, very few communities and I'm proud to say in Montclair, my hometown, they voluntarily integrated their schools through a so-called magnet school system, that our daughter in fact is a part of.

And the reason I say that is, it costs a ton of money, busing kids all over town and they, kids go back and forth.

So it's not just one community to the next.

It's within.

- Oh yes.

- This town is segregated in many ways by race in communities but kids go to school together.

- Right, it's- - That's rare in New Jersey, David.

- I can't agree with you more.

And one of the things that Education Law Center has, is turning to is the question of what policies can the state start to implement that begin to give children the opportunity both within their districts and across districts to attend schools that are more socioeconomically and racially diverse.

Why is that that is so important now, a quarter way into the 21st century because these kids, these students that are in school today, the society and the democracy that they are gonna enter when they graduate is extraordinarily multicultural and racially diverse today.

And that's just growing.

So the more we give them the opportunity, like your daughter to be in a diverse environment, to learn with kids of other cultures, other races, other socioeconomic backgrounds, the better prepared they're going to be when they graduate, have to go to college and enter the workforce.

- And by the way, check out the interview we did with Mr. Dan Gill.

Mr. Gill, a teacher in the public schools in Montclair is teaching for 50 plus years.

That interview is important because it talks about the importance of having kids learn together.

Before I let you go, David, before we end this program, I'm curious about this, New Jersey is, doesn't simply just have segregated schools.

It has segregated, we're segregated, we are.

To what degree do you believe most parents, most citizens want to live in integrated communities, want their children to be in integrated schools, and separate apart from the politics and policy of this, for many it's choice, it's their choice.

They'd rather be separate, you say?

- You know, it's a, that's a hard question to answer and it's a difficult one.

I think that, you know, when parents have the opportunity for their children to actually be in a diverse learning environment like your daughter, I think they begin to appreciate how important it is.

Was true with my kids.

My public school district is much more diverse.

When my one son went to school and then when my later son went to school is much more diverse.

And the education, and the experience that they got really did prepare them.

So when parents get the opportunity to experience that.

- Right - Then their attitudes change.

But I will say to you, Steve- - Few seconds left, I'm sorry for asking such a loaded question, Dave.

A few seconds, go ahead.

- We need state leadership on this.

When was the last time we had a state politician of any stature, governor, legislative leaders stand up and say, we have to begin to address this.

We have to modernize our public education system to provide more diverse learning environments for our students.

And that's got to be part of the education that we provide to our children across the state.

- David Sciarra, former executive director of the Education Law Center, I just wanna say this to you, David, thank you for your service to this state and to the children of this state.

Thank you, David.

- Steve, I'm not going anywhere, so I'm around.

I'm gonna stay in the struggle.

So let's talk again.

- Job well done.

I'm Steve Adubato.

Way more importantly, let's David Sciarra.

We'll see you next time.

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