>> Hi.

I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds and leaders in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

And in this episode, pastor and best-selling author Sarah Jakes Roberts shares how you can heal from past trauma, build stronger relationships, and deepen your faith.

I'm so glad you're here today.

So, let's dive in, and let the class begin.

♪ ♪ ♪ >> I think the biggest insecurity is also the thing that has become my greatest strength, but it's ultimately that I didn't fit where I thought I was supposed to fit.

Growing up with T.D.

Jakes as my dad, you know, I didn't always feel like I fit in church.

Like, you know, now you fast-forward, and I feel that way, actually, is why I kind of created a space for different women who were like me.

>> You just feel like you didn't belong in the space that there was?

>> Yeah.

>> And so then you said, "I'm going to create a space," and then people came into it.

>> Yeah.

>> What is that space called?

>> Woman Evolve is what I branded it.

But, you know, I feel like it's a safe space where women can bring all of themselves and see what they need to eliminate and what they need to multiply so that they can become the best version of themselves.

>> What is the biggest challenge that women are faced with today that you see?

>> Self-worth.

I think even women who you would think have succeeded so much that they should find value in where they are in life still struggle to receive the life that they live.

And certainly women who have had challenges like I have wonder if there is any way that they can have worth with the broken pieces they have left.

>> When did you feel the most broken?

>> I was 19 when I got married and 23 when I got divorced.

There was some infidelity and -- okay, so here we go.

This is the "School of Greatness."

>> On which side?

>> On his side.

>> Okay.

>> Okay?

On his side, there was infidelity.

>> Oh, she's getting relaxed.

She's getting into it now.

>> I'm about to talk.

I'm about to tell you the whole story now.

So, there was infidelity on his side.

And there was this moment where something happened.

I won't go into the full details... >> Sure.

>> ...but they called the police on me because your girl lost it.

Okay?

My husband brought his girlfriend to our house... >> Eeh!

>> ...and I didn't know how to process that.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's funny in retrospect, but I was in the DMV.

I didn't have any family.

I felt so vulnerable.

I didn't have where I could just pick up and take my kids somewhere.

And I felt this violation.

I had to go see CPS after this.

The officer didn't arrest me.

>> CPS is?

>> Child Protective Services.

>> Uh-huh.

>> And so, I was leaving Child Protective Services, where they're basically asking about my routines with the kids and, you know, what I enjoy about them.

They're interviewing me to determine whether or not I'm a good mother.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Okay?

>> Like, that night or, like, weeks later?

>> Weeks later.

>> Okay.

>> I had to schedule it, or I would have had to go to court.

Now, you're talking about someone who got pregnant at 13 being interviewed almost ten years later about whether or not she's a good mother.

This is my biggest fear... >> Oh, my goodness.

>> ...right in front of my face.

Am I going to be a good mother?

When I walked out of that office, that's when I felt the most broken I had ever felt.

That is the moment where I was like, "I can't keep on living as a woman who doesn't know who she is, who doesn't have any limits, who doesn't have any boundaries, whose only emotion is anger."

I felt nothing else but anger... >> Wow.

>> ...and that's when I wanted to start doing some work on myself.

>> I can relate to the fact of feeling anger a lot... >> Yeah.

>> ...and not knowing, like, "What's the purpose?

Why am I here?"

Like, "I can't live like this anymore" and being in a state of reaction a lot.

>> Yeah.

>> It's not fun.

>> It's not.

I mean, you're 23.

You've got two kids, and you see that your husband is cheating on you, and the girl is there.

>> Yeah.

>> If I'm 23, and that happened to me, I don't know how to react, either.

>> Yeah.

>> You probably react.

I'm going to be angry.

I'm going to fight.

I'm going to scream.

Like, that's a normal response that you might see.

So, how does someone learn to develop tools, emotional skills, to go beyond that?

>> So, what I learned is that I wasn't just upset about the incident.

I was upset that every time I was trying to create this image of my life, it kept being ripped to shreds.

>> What image?

>> This image of not a girl who got pregnant at 13.

Like, whoever you think that girl is, that's not who I am.

Like, "Look -- I went to school.

Look -- I finally got married."

I was trying to fix this image of myself.

And so, emotional tools for me came down to realizing that the marriage and even the pregnancy was the fruit, but it was not the root.

It was the fruit of my insecurities.

It was the fruit of my fear.

It was the fruit of feeling like I didn't belong.

But it wasn't the root.

Emotional -- >> What's the root?

>> The root was that feeling like I didn't belong and needing someone to tell me, "You belong here," whether that was as a teenager or even as an adult woman.

"I want you.

This is where you belong.

This is where you're supposed to be."

And I kept hoping someone would answer that question for me, "Where do I belong?"

>> What if no one ever answers that for you?

>> So, for me, I found the answer in my faith, because the whole premise of our faith for me as a Christian is that you belong here because God created you and placed you in this Earth.

And yet it's difficult to understand, like, "Okay, well, there are millions and billions of people around me" -- like, so why did that make me special; why does anyone care?

-- and still surrendering to it as truth and asking myself, "Well, if I decided, if I just chose to try and..." >> Yes.

>> "...believe this one day is truth, what would my life look like?

What decisions would I make?

How would I show up in the world?"

And it was really like me just trying it on, right?

Like I'm just going to try on this truth.

>> See how it feels.

>> Like, I don't know if I fully believe it myself, but I'm going to step into a faith that I don't fully understand and see how it can fit in my life.

So, I'm going to pretend that I'm fearfully and wonderfully made, and I'm going to make decisions from this heart posture.

I'm going to pretend that I am not random and my life has purpose, and I'm going to see how I show up in the world as a result of that.

And I started loving the person who I was becoming when I believed that I was more than what just happened to me.

>> How do we love the image of a past that we're not proud of?

How do we make that our fruit and not a pain?

>> When I looked back at my teenage pregnancy, I cringed, you know, and yet I'm cringing about a part of my identity.

Like, this is truth, you know?

This is who I am.

I spent so long trying to not be the girl who got pregnant at 13, but I am the girl who got pregnant at 13.

That's my -- >> You tried to hide it.

You tried to -- >> In my mind, emotionally, I felt like I want to separate from this idea that that's who I am.

>> But it's a part of you.

>> It is a part of me.

And so, I was living divided, and forgiveness for me came from not judging that girl who got pregnant at 13.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> It came from embracing her.

>> Was it harder for you to forgive yourself or your husband?

>> Myself for the 13-year-old pregnancy.

>> It was harder?

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Why is it harder to forgive ourselves in general than someone else?

>> Because, once again, like, not for nothing, like, this was not a good marriage on either side.

>> Yeah.

>> You know what I mean?

>> It wasn't right.

>> It wasn't a good marriage.

The most beautiful thing that came out of it is a little girl, but it wasn't a good marriage.

I wasn't good to him.

He wasn't good to me.

Like, I would talk so crazy to him, things I would never say on "The School of Greatness," things I would never say now, understanding how delicate a person is.

And so, it was toxic in general, but I carried my own poison into it, and I take ownership for that.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And when I've written about it, talked about in the past, I take ownership for that.

And so, it was easier to forgive that because I just realized that that was a byproduct of me having not forgiven myself from that original situation.

>> How did you grow up in a community where your father is preaching certain things that maybe you felt like you weren't living up to?

>> Yeah.

>> And then how do you, now that you're speaking a similar language that he is, how do you raise kids to live into that and not kind of make mistakes on their own?

>> Well, I think it's like expecting a dentist's child to never have a cavity.

[ Both laugh ] >> They're gonna want to eat some ice cream.

>> They are!

You know what I mean?

So, I think -- >> Hmm, that's interesting.

>> The idea that Christianity in general is about doing everything perfect I think is why a lot of people struggle, because everyone knows -- >> The pressure.

>> It's too much pressure.

And the whole premise of this is that we cannot live up to this expectation.

So, we need someone to come and help save us from this idea that we can live perfectly.

Like, we are never going to do it perfectly.

So, then it's like, "How do I live with this thorn in my side?

How do I strive to become better?

How do I make peace with the fact that I am a work in progress?"

And I think somewhere lost in the translation of religion is this idea that you're never going to mess up.

And that's where we end up losing a lot of people.

So, I don't have pressure for them to not mess up.

I have pressure on them to learn how to get back on track when they've strayed away.

>> Interesting.

Yeah, I think the judgment of, like, needing to be perfect from people is the thing that pushes people away.

>> Yes, because, like, who has time for that, right?

And life is too hard, and I have too many complications, and, in some cases, too much trauma... >> Mm-hmm.

>> ...to think that I'm going to come into this space and do everything the right way.

Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek."

You know, that's not really -- >> That's not you all the time.

>> That's not really my jam.

>> What's the... [ Both laugh ] What is the greatest trauma that you are still dealing with the most?

>> I think the residue of not being able to defend myself, because when I got pregnant, I felt like I did something wrong, okay?

And this is not just something wrong in church, right?

Because if you do something wrong in church, there's another community that will embrace you.

>> Right.

>> When you're a teen mom, there's not another community that's like, "Oh, we love teen moms."

You know what I mean?

Like, "Oh, please have another baby.

We love this," you know?

>> Right.

>> And so, I didn't have anywhere to go in the world that wouldn't judge me or in the church that wouldn't judge me.

And because this was something I willfully did -- no one took advantage of me -- I felt like, "Well, I can't be hurt over this.

I can't be broken over this.

I have to let everyone else grieve, and I just have to sit here with my feelings."

But I was hurt.

I was sad.

I was disappointed.

And so, now, even as a woman, I have to learn to advocate for my right to have feelings, even if I've done something wrong.

>> Do you feel like you're a lot more open now?

>> I am.

[ Both laugh ] >> Like, "My heart is open.

I love everyone."

>> I don't know how I feel about it, though.

I have a feelings wheel, and it's got... >> Happy, sad.

>> ...like, "Happy, sad."

[ Both laugh ] >> "Which one am I at?"

>> And then, once you pick one, it shows you all of these different -- because my emotional vocabulary is pretty limited.

And so, like, the other day, I felt happy, but I didn't know, like, why or what.

And then I had to follow my wheel.

And then the wheel to "happy" led me to, like, "valued" and "respected," which were very foreign for me.

Like, to have words that I feel valued, especially after struggling with my worth, was, like, really interesting.

My initial reaction was like, "I don't want to feel that."

And then I would like -- >> You don't want to feel valued?

>> That was my fear-based initial response, which I think is the residue of trauma, throwing the wall up.

But then I had to work to say, "No, this is your life.

This is your truth" a lot.

Like, I'm still coaching myself emotionally.

>> When do you feel the most valued?

>> When my husband talks to me.

>> And how have you learned to develop your own self-worth, regardless of what he does or your kids do or your parent -- you know, how have you done that yourself?

>> So, in between -- so, I got divorced.

>> Uh-huh.

>> And I moved back home with my parents, and I started rebuilding from there, really from the inside out.

I fell in love with myself, like, because I think I was so just uninterested in who I had become that when I finally got out of that marriage, I started confronting my own poison.

And I was so in love with myself and with my life and with my children.

And I was able to get a house by myself.

And so, I ended up getting to that place I wanted to be, where I was like a good mom and taking care of my children.

And I was happy with myself, and I was taking care of my health and my body.

And so, I felt so valued by myself then that when my husband came in, he really just echoed what I was already saying about myself.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And so, I think that me coming to that place on my own had a lot to do with self-forgiveness and then beginning to work towards a life that felt true to my potential and my dreams.

>> How did you get the poison out?

>> I did a lot of journaling.

I started blogging.

>> Oh.

>> I let the poison speak.

>> You kept saying to yourself, "I'm worthless.

No one's ever gonna value me.

No one's gonna love me."

>> Yeah, I never had thoughts that were positive towards myself.

>> Really?

>> Mnh-mnh.

My dad would say, "You're smart," and I would instantly reject it because I'm like, "Smart girls don't get pregnant."

>> Mm.

>> You know?

>> "If I'm smart, why'd I do this?"

>> Exactly.

I came to this place where I had to ask myself, like, "How long are we going to receive this as truth?"

And then I would blog it.

I would put those words out.

Like, no one knew that I was pregnant, but I would like -- or that I had gotten pregnant at the time.

Of course, people know now, but I would just, like, write all of these things.

And then at the end of this blog, I would kind of like talk to myself as if a friend was talking to me.

>> Mm.

>> And it was through that process that I had something to say back to the poison.

And then it went from whispering it back to the poison to raising my voice and raising my voice until the poison had to shut up because faith was speaking.

[ Both laugh ] I do think no matter how great you've had parenting in your life that there's an ache inside of all of us.

Now, it could be something minor, like a headache, or it could be a missing leg, depending on what you've gone through in life.

>> Emotionally.

>> Yeah, in some way.

And so, I think to come to terms with the fact that there's going to be a part of my children that I just don't see.

Life is still going to have to suck them in.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And in the process of doing that, they may come out wounded.

So, my job is not to protect them from harm.

I'm going to do the best that I can.

My role is to show them how to recover from harm, how to heal.

>> That's so true.

I want to go back to self-worth.

How do we learn to believe when all we've ever done is doubt?

>> Maybe it's less about belief and more about acceptance, you know, because I think at the end of the day, I had to surrender to the fact that whether I think I deserve it or not, it's in my life -- the acceptance of this is my body, this is my life, this is my past.

Like, this is my husband.

And if I only have a short amount of time here, do I want to spend it rejecting the very life that I've been given, or do I want to dare to accept it with no fear that it could be gone tomorrow?

>> How do we accept if we're not happy with what we have?

>> So, I think we have to accept that, "Okay, so this is my life.

I'm in a bad marriage, okay?

My career isn't where I want it to be.

Like, this is my truth.

I'm going to accept this as my truth.

And then I have to determine, can my truth stay?

Can I build with this truth?

And, if not, what do I need to do?

Do I need to go to therapy?

Do I need to go back to school?

Should I start a side business?

What would it take for me to come to a place where I can embrace and love the truth that I have had to accept?"

>> What are three things that people should look for when knowing they've found the right partner for their life?

Maybe not the perfect person, but the right person, great fit?

>> First thing that you should look for is the best version of yourself.

I don't want to even talk about what the other person should possess until you understand the fullness of what you possess.

>> That's smart.

>> Too much onus is on what a person is going to bring into the room.

What do you bring into the room?

Who are you at your best?

Who are you at your worst?

How do you handle your finances?

How do you handle your emotions?

What does anger look like for you?

Where's your childhood baggage?

You know, how is that playing out in your adulthood?

Who are you?

>> Okay, best version of yourself.

>> Number two is someone who has done that type of work for themselves, someone who knows themselves well enough that they can say, "Oh, I'm sorry.

The little boy in me was speaking.

The little girl in me was speaking."

>> Right -- take responsibility for those actions.

>> Absolutely, which you can't do unless you've gone on a journey yourself.

>> Right.

>> And then the third thing I will say is someone who makes you laugh.

Laughter is medicine.

>> It is.

>> And if you're going to do life with someone in a world that is often sick, you want to have that medicine right beside you every night.

My husband and I laugh at the most inappropriate things.

Like, "This is not funny."

Like, you know, there's this big shift or transition or the kids are going through something crazy, and we're like, "Hey, at least they're not ugly."

And I'm like, "Well, you can't..." [ Both laugh ] You know what I mean?

Like, "We got to find something."

And that makes it possible for us to make it through the thickness of life.

>> Yeah.

What would you say is your biggest fear right now?

>> That I'll miss my life, that I'll be so busy building it that I miss it.

>> Mm.

What are you doing to make sure you don't miss it?

>> I am avoiding the pressure to perform and being intentional about scheduling time to do nothing -- blank space.

>> I'm so glad you're saying this because I'm hearing this.

You're the second person that said this in my life in the last month.

So, I'm hearing like, okay, this is something that I need to be thinking of more of, just scheduling no time... >> Yeah.

>> ...whether it's a day of no time, a week, a month, and just no time.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> How do we, when every opportunity is coming our way -- this is a very first-world problem.

>> Yeah.

>> The abundances in my life, opportunity galore -- how do we learn to say no and know that those will still be there after we get back?

>> You don't know.

That's a fear-based decision to say, "I have to take on everything, because if I don't, I could lose it."

>> That's scarcity.

>> Yeah, that's scarcity for sure.

I'm really the only person who understands the fullness of what I can and cannot offer.

And so, if I allow everyone to capitalize off of my gift, I could do so at the risk of depletion if I'm not in tune enough with myself to know when I need to back off.

>> Yeah.

>> But it's like your fears pretend to keep you safe, and your faith makes a demand on courage you aren't sure you possess.

>> Mm.

>> And so, we end up indecisive because those extremes... >> Yes.

>> ...are so difficult.

>> Procrastinating... >> Oh, yeah.

>> ...self-analyzing, assessing what could go wrong.

What about this?

Embarrassment, all these things, right?

>> Absolutely.

>> When we are living in that space of fear of what could go wrong, what are we really saying?

>> "I don't trust that I can handle if this doesn't work out well.

I'm afraid that this will break me.

I'm afraid that this will prove that I don't have worth.

I'm afraid that this will prove that I'm not smart enough."

>> Ooh, gosh.

>> "I'm afraid that this will become the evidence that my insecurities need to keep me from being who I'm supposed to be."

>> What happens if you find that that is evidence for you?

How can you flip it and make it empowering as opposed to disempowering?

>> We have to come to a place where we realize that, like, not everything you do is going to win.

>> It's going to be great, like this... >> Right!

>> ...world-class.

>> Like, you're going to suck sometimes.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, you just are.

When your goal is mastery, you recognize that failure is going to be a part of the process.

But because you want to be a master, you dissect that failure, extract the wisdom from it, and apply it to the next try.

>> Why do some people stop once they fail?

>> Because I think they wanted the success to define them, as opposed to allowing who they are to just be who they are.

Like, I'm looking for something that is going to add to my value and add to my identity.

So, if I do something, and it fails, I'm not going to try again because I can't take another debit off of this account, right?

This is taking a debit off of my worth, and I'm going to go into the overdraft, so I'm not going to do it again.

>> The effort itself is the worth.

>> Exactly!

>> The act of doing... >> Yes!

>> ...the act of being and who you become in the expression of your truth, your gift, your art, your talent.

And in your marriage, what are the non-negotiables for you in order to keeping a great connection in your marriage that you apply to your life and you also recommend to other people?

>> I love the way my husband sees the world.

I respect it.

I respect it.

Like, I could never think the way that he does.

And I feel like that level of respect in a relationship sounds basic and fundamental, and yet I'm not so sure that it exists in every relationship.

>> Right.

>> Because so many people, like, roll their eyes when their spouse says something, or they're like, "Oh, here they go again."

And I never feel like that with my husband.

Number-two non-negotiable -- we're first.

In the sea of all of the things we have going on, we are the nucleus of our world... >> Yes.

>> ...which means if we're not good, we cannot expand beyond that.

If that means we have to cancel meetings -- my husband has put up a guest speaker on Sunday because we weren't flowing well -- like, we don't fake it and then come back, and we'll figure it out.

If we need to go upstairs real quick to talk, like, we don't allow our nucleus to be torn apart.

>> That's beautiful.

>> And then the third non-negotiable is recapping our day.

He usually puts his head on my lap.

>> Oh!

>> And... >> That's nice.

>> ...it's basically saying, "What did the world look like from your perspective?"

Even if we spent the whole day together, it's like, "What did the world look like from your perspective today?"

That's really important because, like, you take maybe a more traditional home environment before the pandemic, and the husband comes home, and, you know, and these are just I'm using, you know, stereotypical gender roles.

>> Yes.

>> So, please bear with me.

Maybe the husband doesn't take out the trash, and the wife hasn't cooked dinner.

And he's frustrated because dinner's not done, ad she's frustrated because the trash isn't taken out.

But she doesn't know that his boss was riding him all day.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And he doesn't realize that, you know, one of her best friends is depressed.

And so, having that moment at the end of the day where it's like, "How did you experience this world?

How was your humanity shaped in this day?

What did you experience emotionally as an opportunity to love one another better?"

>> Mm-hmm.

That's beautiful.

And what would you say are three skills that every 22-year-old should start to learn?

>> A vision for now, a healthy vision for now.

At 22, you know, you're kind of still taking things as they come.

>> Yes.

>> And yet to say, "No, I need to really take ownership of the vision of my life" I think allows you to begin making decisions in that direction.

To be fully present.

>> Yeah, that's a skill.

>> Yeah.

>> Most people are distracted.

>> Oh, my goodness.

To be fully present and to avoid comparison.

>> The thief of joy.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I'd like you to imagine a hypothetical scenario.

>> Okay.

>> It's your last day on Earth, many years away from now.

You get to live as long as you want to live, but then you've got to turn the lights off at some point.

>> Okay.

>> And you accomplish all your dreams.

You have the life you want to have.

Your family does amazing.

All the things happen.

You write the books.

You build the businesses.

You change lives.

Whatever you want to do, it happens.

>> Okay.

>> But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your messages with you, all of your books, writing, podcasts, videos.

Everything you've ever said has to go with you to the next place.

>> Okay.

>> So, no one has access to your information anymore, but you get to leave behind three things you know to be true, three lessons that you've learned from your life.

You get to write them down on a piece of paper and share this with the world.

And this is all they would have to remember your message by.

What would you say are your three lessons or your three truths?

>> God is real.

God is good.

God is in you.

>> We need more people like you, Sarah.

So, I'm very grateful for you.

I acknowledge you for the gift you are.

And I acknowledge you for making the changes when you didn't believe in yourself and you didn't feel like you were worthy of certain things because a decade of feeling that way can cripple some of us.

And for you to say, "Okay, I'm in a dark place, but this isn't going to define the rest of my life.

I can still make something more meaningful," it's really inspiring.

So, I acknowledge you for all the changes and all the beauty you're going to create in the world.

My final question for you is what's your definition of greatness?

>> Daring to live vulnerably, for the world to be inspired by and taught by.

I think that's greatness.

Living vulnerably, like, actually showing up and doing life vulnerably -- loving vulnerably, working, creating from that place of vulnerability, where validation would be nice but not necessary, because my only option is to produce from this place.

I think that's greatness.

>> Mm.

We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from "The School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes.

And if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website lewishowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of "The School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course Find Your Greatness is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in "The School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to lewishowes.com/tv.

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