>> THIS WEEK ON TO THE CONTRARY: FIRST EDUCATION SECRETARY BETSY DeVOS BOOED DURING HER COMMENCEMENT ADDRESS AT HBCU.

THEN WHERE ARE THE WOMEN CRAFTING THE SENATE HEALTHCARE BILL?

AND THE STATS ABOUT SEXUAL ASSAULT ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES HAVE MANY PEOPLE SCRATCHING THEIR HEADS.

♪ ♪ >> HELLO, I'M BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO TO THE CONTRARY, A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, CONTROVERSIAL COMMENCEMENT.

STUDENTS' BOOS DROWNED OUT EDUCATION SECRETARY BETSY DEVOS AS SHE SPOKE AT BETHUNE-COOKMAN UNIVERSITY'S COMMENCEMENT.

MANY GRADUATING STUDENTS OF THE HISTORICALLY BLACK SCHOOL ALSO TURNED THEIR BACKS IN PROTEST.

THE BOOING WAS SO INTENSE THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE SCHOOL AT ONE POINT INTERRUPTED THE SPEECH TO URGE STUDENTS TO BE QUIET.

A LOCAL CHAPTER OF THE NAACP HAD EARLIER CALLED ON THE UNIVERSITY'S PRESIDENT TO RESIGN OVER THE DECISION TO INVITE DEVOS.

THE EDUCATION SECRETARY IS RAMPING UP AN ATTEMPT TO REACH OUT TO HBCUS, BUT MANY STUDENTS SEE IT AS AN EMPTY GESTURE, DUE TO POLICIES THEY SAY WILL HARM MINORITY AND LOW INCOME SCHOOLS.

STUDENTS WERE ALSO RESPONDING TO DEVOS'S COMMENTS IN FEBRUARY IN WHICH SHE CALLED HBCUS "REAL PIONEERS WHEN IT COMES TO SCHOOL CHOICE."

CONGRESSMAN WOMAN ELEANOR HOLMES NOR TOP, WAS THE RIGHT WAY TO EXPRESS THEIR DISPLEASURE OR WAS IT RUDE?

>> AT THE VERY LEAST IT WAS INEVITABLE FOR THE WOMAN WHO INSULTED HBCUs ESTABLISHED BECAUSE OF RACIAL SEGREGATION, NOT BY CHOICE.

>> IT WAS RUDE AN INAPPROPRIATE.

WHAT ARE THE KIDS LEARNING IF THEY THINK THE BEST WAY TO ENGAGE IN DIALOGUE IS NOT TO LISTEN.

>> THE HISTORY OF THE STRUGGLE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS MARKED BY DIRECT ACTION.

IT'S RARELY POLITE AND NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE.

>> BETSY DeVOS MAY HAVE HAD A BETTER WEEK IT SOUNDS LIKE THAN THE FBI DIRECTOR OR EX-FBI DIRECTOR JAMES COMEY BECAUSE THIS MOSTLY GOT SWEPT UNDER THE RUG AS THAT TOOK OVER WASHINGTON.

>> WHY DOES SHE GET INTO SO MUCH TROUBLE?

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST PLACE WHERE SHE HAS BEEN BOOED.

HER VERY FIRST ACT AS EDUCATION SECRETARY OUTSIDE OF THE BUILDING SHE TRIED TO VISIT A D.C. SCHOOL AND PEOPLE, THE STUDENTS AND TEACHERS STOOD OUT IN FRONT AND SAID WE DON'T WANT YOU.

IS IT BECAUSE SHE'S A WOMAN OR IS IT BECAUSE SHE IS EXTREMELY TO THE RIGHT AS SHE IS.

>> THERE IS A BACKSTORY.

SHE HAD OBVIOUSLY SAID THESE SCHOOLS WERE PIONEERS OF SCHOOL CHOICE.

FORGETTING AGAIN OR AT LEAST NOT RECOGNIZING THAT THEY WERE FOUNDED BECAUSE THEY HAD NOWHERE ELSE TO GO.

AND WHAT WAS VERY DIFFICULT FOR HER THIS WEEK AS WELL IS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD PUT THIS SIGNING STATEMENT ON A SPENDING BILL THAT REALLY BLIND SIDED HER AND I WAS TOLD SHE WAS LIVID ABOUT IT, TARGETING HBCU'S FUNDING AND SUGGESTING THAT THESE GUARANTEES THAT THEY GET MIGHT NOT BE CONSTITUTIONAL.

AND SO GOING INTO THIS, SHE ALREADY HAD THAT RIDING ON HER AND IT WAS JUST A SETUP FOR A DISASTER FOR HER.

>> SHE HAD HER INITIAL APPEARANCE WHEN SHE WAS TRYING TO GET CONFIRMED.

SHE GOT THE WORST VOTE OF ALL OF THE, OF ALL OF THE NOMINEES OF THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE SHE PERFORMED SO IGNORANTLY AND POORLY.

SO FROM THE GET GO RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX SHE SEEMED NOT TO KNOW WHAT SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT.

>> HER NOMINATION AND CONFIRMATION WAS HISTORIC.

THERE WAS A TIE BREAKING VOTE THAT HAD NEVER BEFOREHAND ON CABINET LEVEL APPOINTEE WHERE PENCE CAST THE MAJORITY VOTE.

>> ARE YOU SAYING THAT'S A GOOD THING?

>> I'M ACKNOWLEDGING THAT DID HAPPEN.

SHE IS A LIGHTNING ROD BUT SHE IS NOW THE SECRETARY OF EDUCATION AND FOR PEOPLE TO THINK THAT HAVING SORT OF GORILLA LIKE ACTION I FIND TROUBLING FOR OUR NATION'S INSTITUTIONS.

>> COULD YOU NOT LOOK AT IT THOUGH SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO SPEAK, AT LEAST SHE GOT TO SPEAK WHEREAS ANN COULTER DIDN'T EVEN GET TO SPEAK AT BERKELEY BUT TO GO WHERE YOU KNOW YOU ARE NOT WELCOME AND YOU ARE GOING TO BE CONTROVERSIAL, WHY DON'T THE STUDENTS HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOICE THEIR VIEWS AS MUCH AS SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO SPEAK.

>> IS IT APPROPRIATE TO DROWN OUT A SPEAKER, TO KEEP THEM FROM SPEAKING AND THEN OR PRIOR TO THAT AS YOU MENTIONED, WITH ANN COULTER TO GET SOMEBODY CANCELED?

I DON'T THINK THAT'S A GREAT WAY TO EXPRESS.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT OUR FOUNDERS WOULD HAVE AGREED WITH.

>> WHAT BETSY DeVOS HAVE SAID PARTICULARLY THE COMMENTS ABOUT HBCU AND SCHOOL CHOICE WAS SO GROSSLY OFFENSIVE.

>> WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT OUR KNOWLEDGE OF AMERICAN HISTORY?

>> EXACTLY.

IT'S AN INSULT, AN INSULT TO STUDENTS GRADUATING FROM AN HBCU TO HAVE SOMEONE WHO WOULD MAKE SUCH A FLAGRANT STATEMENT LIKE THAT COME ON WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THEIR SPECIAL DAY.

THIS IS ABOUT FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

PUBLIC PROTEST IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE DO WITH ALL OF YOUR OTHER OPTIONS HAVE BEEN EXHAUSTED AND RESISTING BETSY DeVOS IS PART OF THE RESISTANCE.

WE ARE SEEING THAT HAPPENING AGAIN WITH MEMBERS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION.

>> THERE IS A DIRNS BETWEEN VIOLENCE AND PROTEST.

>> THE PRESIDENT OF THE YOU UNIVERSITY SAID THAT MARY McCLOUD BETHUNE WHO FOUNDED THE UNIVERSITY WITH A DOLLAR 50 IN THE 1800s AND THAT SHE TOOK SOURCES OF MONEY FROM THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT, PEOPLE WHOSE VOICES OR OPINIONS SHE DIDN'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH.

HE MADE IT SOUND LIKE HE INVITED HER BECAUSE HE WANTED TO GET MORE MONEY OUT OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

DID IT WORK?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.

I CAN'T SPEAK TO HIS MOTIVATIONS.

WHAT I CAN SAY IS THERE IS A DIFFICULTY I THINK FOR ANY UNIVERSITY IN CHOOSING COMMENCEMENT SPEAKERS BECAUSE YOU WANT SOMEONE WHO IS VERY HIGH PROFILE BUT YOU DON'T WANT SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO COURT CONTROVERSY AND RUIN STUDENTS SPECIAL DAY.

I THINK IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION THERE IS A QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE UNIVERSITY WAS PERHAPS WISE TO NOT JUST INVITE HER BUT TO INVITE ANYONE WHO MAY HAVE BEEN A LIGHTNING ROD FOR CONTROVERSY BUT ALSO AS FAR AS THE ADMINISTRATION IS CONCERNED, I'M SURE THEY SAW THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO A SCHOOL AND SPEAK TO SOME STUDENTS AND SPEAK TO PEOPLE THAT PROBABLY DID NOT VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP AND GET THEIR MESSAGE OUT, PARTICULARLY AFTER HER PREVIOUS COMMENTS ABOUT HBCUs AND THE WAY THAT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID HAVE BEEN INTERPRETED.

>> DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT JACKSON WILL BE ABLE TO AVOID THE CUTS?

I MEAN WAS THIS A MOVE, IN YOUR EYES, TO MAKE NICE, NICE WITH THE ADMINISTRATION THAT CLEARLY IS GOING TO CUT BACK ON FUNDING FOR HBCUs AND WILL IT HELP HIM AT ALL?

>> THE BLOW BACK SEEMS TO BE ON HIM.

PEOPLE HAVE CALLED FOR HIS RESIGNATION.

I DON'T SUPPORT SILENCING ANYONE.

I HAVE TO ASK ALL OF YOU, WHAT SHOULD THEY HAVE DONE?

ONE THING, THE MAIN THING THEY WAS GET UP AND TURN THEIR BACKS.

THIS IS UNTOLD LONG HELD WAY OF PROTESTING.

WHOSE DAY IS THIS ANYWAY?

IS IT FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT MONEY COMES TO HIM, WHICH IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE EVEN IF IT ISN'T.

OR IS IT FOR THE STUDENTS WHO ARE HAVING A UNIQUE DAY?

SEEMS TO ME HE WASN'T THINKING ABOUT HIS OWN STUDENTS.

>> HE WAS...

THE STUDENTS WERE DROWNING OUT HER SPEECH.

AS SHE WAS TRYING TO SPEAK AND AT ONE POINT THE PRESIDENT HAD TO INTERVENE AND ASK THE STUDENTS TO ALLOW HER TO SPEAK, WHICH IS DEFINITIONALLY SILENCING.

I PERSONALLY DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE AN ISSUE IF STUDENTS WANTED TO EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS BY TURNING THEIR BACKS, THAT SEEMS RESPECTFUL BUT TO KEEP SOMEONE FROM SPEAKING SEEMS TO GO AGAINST THE ENTIRE POINT OF HIGHER EDUCATION.

>> TO SPEAK ABOUT THE FUNDING, I WAS GOING TO SAY AFTER THE SIGNING STATEMENT I MENTIONED I WANT TO NOTE THAT THE PRESIDENT CAME BACK AND SAID I DID NOT MEAN THAT SPECIFICALLY TO TARGET HBCUs.

I HAVE BROAD SUPPORT FOR THEM.

AND ALSO PREVIOUSLY IN HIS ADMINISTRATION HE SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER PRIORITIZING THE HBCU INITIATIVE AND BRINGING IT OUT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION TO THE WHITE HOUSE... >> NO MONEY BEHIND IT.

(ALL TALKING AT ONCE) >> THAT PART DID NOT HAVE MONEY BEHIND IT.

BUT IT WAS... >> I HAVE TO CORRECT SOMETHING HERE.

YOU SAID IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

YOU SAID HBCUs WERE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

THAT WAS AN INSULT.

THEY HAVE BEEN OPEN TO WHITE PEOPLE FROM THE BEGINNING.

IT'S ONLY WHITE INSTITUTIONS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN OPEN TO THE HBCUs WHICH IS HOW THEY GOT STARTED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER.

FROM STUDENTS TO REPUBLICAN WOMEN SENATORS AND HEALTHCARE.

>> SENATE REPUBLICANS ARE DEFENDING THEIR ALL MALE HEALTHCARE WORKING GROUP THIS WEEK WITH 13 MEMBERS ON THE PANEL THERE IS NOT A SINGLE WOMAN.

MAINE SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS WAS LEFT OFF THE TEAM DESPITE HER HEALTHCARE EXPERTISE.

MAJORITY LEADER MITCH McCONNELL SAID NOBODY IS BEING EXCLUDED BY GENDER AND "THE GROUP THAT COUNTS IS ALL 52 OF US, REFERRING TO THE REPUBLICAN SENATORS.

THE COMMITTEE BRINGS ATTENTION TO THE LIMITED ROLE THAT WOMEN PLAY IN THE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS, MAKING UP JUST 10% OF REPUBLICAN SENATORS COMPARATIVELY WOMEN COMPRISE ONE THIRD OF THE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS AMONG THE 21 FEMALE SENATORS, FIVE ARE REPUBLICANS.

SO SUSAN COLLINS AND LISA MARKOWSKI FIRST OF MAINE AND SECOND OF ALASKA HAVE BEEN DISSENTING VOICES IN THE CONGRESS AGAINST THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND AGAINST WHAT THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP IS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH IN SOME SITUATIONS.

ARE THEY BEING PUNISHED PARTICULARLY COLLINS WHO HAS A BACKGROUND IN HEALTHCARE?

>> I DON'T THINK THEY'RE BEING PUNISHED.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IS THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP DIDN'T THINK ABOUT WHAT IT MIGHT LOOK LIKE.

WE SAW QUOTES FROM G.O.P.

LEADERSHIP AIDES SAYING WELL THAT'S A BAD OPTIC AND THEN AFTER THIS WAS RAISED BY FEMALE REPORTERS, THEY CAME BACK AND SAID THESE MEETINGS ARE OPEN TO ANY OF THE FIVE FEMALE REPUBLICAN SENATORS WHEN THEY WANT TO COME ACCORDING TO THEIR SCHEDULE.

>> I THINK THEY'RE BEING PUNISHED AND IT'S NOT BECAUSE SHE IS A WOMAN.

SHE IS A REIGNING EXPERT AMONG THE REPUBLICANS ON HEALTHCARE.

SHE IS BEING PUNISHED BECAUSE SHE IS A MODERATE REPUBLICAN AND SHE DOESN'T, FOR THE MOST PART, AGREE WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH HEALTHCARE NOW.

IT'S POLITICAL, NOT RELATED TO HER GENDER.

>> WHAT SPECIFICALLY IS COLLINS POSITION?

DOES SHE WANT TO KEEP THE A.C.A.?

SL SHE DOESN'T WANT TO KEEP IT BUT SHE WOULD ALLOW STATES TO MAKE A CHOICE.

THIS NOTION OF MODERATION GOES THROUGHOUT HER SERVICE IN THE SENATE.

>> WHAT DOES THE WHITE HOUSE EXPECT THE SENATE WILL COME BACK WITH BY WAY OF THE A.C.A.

AND HOW IS IT GOING TO BE DIFFERENT THAN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IF COLLINS AND MARKOWSKI OR SOME OF THE OTHER FEMALE SENATORS WERE INVOLVED IN PULLING IT TOGETHER?

>> THEY HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN ACKNOWLEDGING THAT IT COULD COME BACK VASTLY DIFFERENT THAN THE BILL THAT WAS PASSED IN THE HOUSE BECAUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WOULD BE TO SAY THAT WHAT THEY HAD IN THE HOUSE WAS NOT AS BIG OF A VICTORY AS THE PRESIDENT SAID IT WAS WHEN THEY TOOK THE BIG VICTORY LAP IN THE ROSE GARDEN BUT WHAT COULD HAPPEN IN THE SENATE IS THERE COULD BE MAJOR CHANGES SPECIFICALLY TO THE MEDICAID ASPECT OF IT, OF THE BILL.

THERE WAS A BIG EXPANSION OF MEDICAID UNDER OBAMACARE AND A LOT OF THE SENATORS THAT WERE TALKING ABOUT WANT TO KEEP IT BECAUSE THEIR STATES PARTICIPATE... >> MKD EXPANSION.

>> THEY WANT TO KEEP THE EXPANSION BECAUSE THEIR STATES BENEFITED FROM IT.

SO WEST VIRGINIA'S FEMALE SENATOR WHO IS ALSO A REPUBLICAN AS WELL FALLS IN THAT CATEGORY, SO IF YOU HAVE THEM IN THE WORKING GROUP, THEY MIGHT PUSH FOR CHANGES THAT WOULD MAKE IT HARDER FOR THE BILL THAT PASSES IN THE SENATE TO BE RECONCILED WITH THE BILL THAT PASSES IN THE HOUSE.

IT IS COMPLICATED BUT THERE ARE MALE REPUBLICAN SENATORS WHO AGREE WITH THEM ON THAT POSITION.

ROB PORTMAN IS ONE OF THEM AND SO THERE ARE MEN IN THE SENATE WHO ALSO TAKE THAT POSITION.

>> DO YOU EXPECT MATERNITY CARE TO BE PUT BACK INTO THE BILL BY THE SENATE?

>> 13 DUDES GOING DO IT?

I DON'T KNOW.

TRUMP CARE SEEMS TO BE JUST A MEAN SPIRIT ADD TACK ON WOMEN FROM EVERY LEVEL FROM THE ATTEMPT TO TAKE MATERNITY LEAVE OUT, MEDICAID EXPANSION DISPROPORTIONATELY SUPPORTS WOMEN, ESPECIALLY SINGLE MOTHERS... >> AND I WANT TO JUMP IN.

IT MUST BE VIEWED BY SOME AS KIND OF STRANGE THEY WANT TO TAKE AWAY ABORTION RIGHTS, TAKE AWAY BIRTH CONTROL COVERAGE AND WHEN YOU DO GET PREGNANT YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD WANT TO PAY FOR MATERNITY COVERAGE SO THE BABIES ARE HEALTHY, BUT NO THEY'RE TAKING AWAY MATERNITY COVERAGE SO YOU WANT TO HAVE A BA I BY, YOU BETTER HAVE $17,000 BUCKS HAND AGREE THAT WHOLE CONSERVATIVE PRO-LIFE THING IS THE BIGGEST PILE OF HYPOCRISY IN THE UNITED STATES IN SOME WAYS BECAUSE IT'S TOTALLY GOING AFTER WOMEN AND NOT SUPPORTING THEM IN TERMS OF PREVENTING PREGNANCY, SUPPORTING THEM THROUGH THE PREGNANCY.

THE ONLY FOCUS IS MAKING SURE PEOPLE ARE BORN.

THE ONE THING THE SENATE PANEL GROUPING THAT I FIND PARTICULARLY CONCERNING SO OUT OF THE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS, SPECIFICALLY ONE IN 10 SENATORS IS A WOMAN.

SO IF THERE ARE 13 PEOPLE IN THE GROUPING, THEORETICALLY THERE SHOULD BE ONE OR TWO WOMEN INCLUDED.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE FOR THIS AND I THINK MITCH McCONNELL HAS SOME ANSWERING TO DO.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT?

DOES IT MAKE SENSE FROM A CONSERVATIVE PERSPECTIVE THAT YOU WOULD DENY ABORTION, OF COURSE, YES.

BIRTH CONTROL AND THEN MATERNITY COVERAGE ALL AT THE SAME TIME?

>> THE GOVERNING PHILOSOPHY HERE IS THAT THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S ROLE AND THAT OBAMACARE EXPANDED A LOT OF THINGS INTO THE GOVERNMENT'S ROLE THAT HADN'T PREVIOUSLY BEEN THERE SO THEY WANT TO HAVE THE DISCUSSION BE YOU ARE TAKING THESE THINGS AWAY FROM PEOPLE.

WELL NOT REALLY.

THE RESULT OF DOING THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE IS THAT PEOPLE HAVE LOST OPTIONS.

THEIR PREMIUMS HAVE BEEN HIGHER AND I FIND IT MORE HYPOCRITICAL AS A WOMAN TO BE TOLD I NEED THE GOVERNMENT TO LOOK OUT FOR ME.

DOESN'T SEEM THAT MUCH DIFFERENT AS BEING TOLD YOU NEED A MAN TO LOOK OUT FOR YOU.

>> IF YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE AND YOU GET PREGNANT, WOULDN'T YOU BE SHOCKED THAT YOUR MATERNITY CARE ISN'T COVERED?

>> I THINK IT SHOULD BE UNDER MOST INSURANCE PLANS BUT IF IT'S NOT, THAT BELONGS ON THE PRIVATE SIDE OF THINGS.

IN THE MARKET.

THE LESS YOU ALLOW THE MARKET TO COMPETE, THE FEWER OPTIONS YOU HAVE AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE SEEN.

>> ELEANOR.

>> THE THEORY OF HEALTH INSURANCE IS THAT MOST OF THE BENEFITS MOST OF US NEED WILL BE THERE FOR US.

IT ISN'T EVEN INSURANCE ANY LONGER IF YOU CAN PICK AND CHOOSE.

YOU NEED TO PUT THE WHOLE CLASS TOGETHER.

THEN IT'S CHEAPER FOR EVERYBODY.

>> WELL AND DO YOU THINK WHAT WILL EVENTUALLY COME OUT OF CONGRESS WON'T INCLUDE MATERNITY CARE?

>> I PREDICT NOTHING WILL COME OUT OF CONGRESS.

I HATE TO PUT IT THAT WAY.

I THINK WE WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER WITHOUT THE HOUSE BILL TO GET THE SENATE WHICH IS EVEN MORE DIVIDED THAN THE HOUSE.

DON'T THINK ANYTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> THAT'S BEEN SAID BUT THEN AGAIN THE LEADERSHIP HAS COME OUT AND SAID NO WE ARE GOING HAVE A RESPONSE... >> WHAT ELSE COULD THEY SAY?

>> BUT THEM HOW ARE THEY GOING TO EXPLAIN IT AND WILL IT BE IN PART DUE TO THE FACT THAT THERE WERE NO WOMEN ON THE COMMITTEE PULLING TOGETHER THE SENATE BILL.

>> BECAUSE I SAID THERE WERE NO MODERATES.

WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO WHEN A BILL COMES FORWARD THAT THEY HAVE DISAGREED WITH FROM THE BEGINNING?

I THINK WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS YOU WON'T HAVE A BILL THAT COMES OUT AND THEN YOU WILL GO TO CONFERENCE.

THEY'LL JUST STRETCH IT OUT, PARTICULARLY AFTER THE 2018 SO AFTER THE 2018 ELECTIONS.

>> WHAT IF, AS PROGRESSIVES HAVE BEEN SAYING, YOU KNOW, THEY WANT A WOMAN ON THE PANEL OR MORE THAN ONE WOMAN ON THE PANEL BUT WHAT IF, FOR EXAMPLE, JODI FROM OHIO WHO IS FAR RIGHT HAD BEEN ON THE PANEL, WOULD THAT HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE ON WHAT THE SENATE DOES OR DOESN'T CRAFT AS HEALTHCARE?

>> I DON'T THINK IT WOULD HAVE NECESSARILY MADE A DIFFERENCE IF SHE SPECIFICALLY HAD BEEN ON THE PANEL.

BUT I WANTED TO SAY THAT I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE SENATE HAS TO TAKE UP.

THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO PASS INFRASTRUCTURE.

THEY'RE ALSO SUPPOSED TO PASS A TAX BILL.

NOW THEY HAVE TO CONFIRM A NEW FBI DIRECTOR.

THERE IS A LOT ON THEIR PLATE AND THEY CAN'T AGREE ON THE HEALTHCARE BILL?

THE CHANCES OF SOMETHING THAT COMES OUT THAT WILL BECOME LAW ARE NOT LOOKING TOO GOOD RIGHT NOW.

>> ALL RIGHT.

FROM HEALTHCARE TO SEXUAL ASSAULT.

>> FEELS LIKE SOMETHING IS ROTTEN IN DENMARK.

>> THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF UNIVERSITY WOMEN SAYS NEW DATA ABOUT SEXUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUS DOESN'T TELL THE WHOLE STORY.

IN THE SURVEY 89% OF COLLEGE CAMPUSES REPORTED ZERO INCIDENCES OF RAPE IN 2015.

IF THAT WERE TRUE THEY SAID IT WOULD BE CAUSE FOR CELEBRATION BUT WITH STATS SHOWING ONE IN FIVE COLLEGE WOMEN IS GOING TO BE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED, SOMETHING IS WRONG.

>> TO BE FAIR IT IS A CRIME THAT IS UNDER REPORTED FOR ALL REASONS THAT YOU ALL KNOW.

BUT BECAUSE OF THE CLEARY ACT, COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES ARE SUPPOSED TO REPORT BASIC CRIME STATISTICS AND WE ARE CONCERNED WHEN YOU HAVE THIS MANY ZEROS WHEN YOU KNOW IT'S HAPPENING BUT THERE IS IN FACT SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE SYSTEM.

INDIVIDUAL COLLEGES DON'T HAVE BASICALLY THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE NOR POTENTIALLY THE WELCOMING ATTITUDE THAT ENCOURAGES STUDENTS TO REPORT.

>> LISA SAYS THE INFORMATION IS IMPORTANT.

IT'S USED TO PLAN FOR VIOLENCE PREVENTION RESPONSE AND ASSISTANCE FOR SEXUAL ASSAULT SURVIVORS.

THAT'S WHY DATA COLLECTION EXPANDED UNDER THE VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN ACT.

>> THIS IS THE SECOND YEAR THAT WE ARE COLLECTING NEW INFORMATION ON THE INCIDENTS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, DATING VIOLENCE AND STALKING AND WE KNOW THAT IS HAPPENING AT EPIDEMIC LEVELS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES AS WELL BUT WE ARE SEEING ZERO REPORTS.

SO THE REALITY IS WE ARE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT CAMPUS SEXUAL ASSAULT BUT THE WHOLE RANGE OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN THAT NEEDS BETTER ATTENTION ON CAMPUS.

>> SO 89% OF CAMPUSES REPORTING NO SEXUAL ASSAULT AND THEN YOU LOOK AT THE NEWS AND IT'S ALL CAMPUS RAPE, CAMPUS RAPE, YOU KNOW.

IT SEEMS LIKE THERE IS LOTS OF IT GOING ON AT EVERY SCHOOL.

HOW DO YOU PUT THOSE TWO TOGETHER.

>> IT'S CLEARLY WRONG.

RIGHT.

THERE IS NO WAY THAT WE CAN BELIEVE THAT NEARLY 90% OF OUR NATION'S UNIVERSITIES HAD ZERO SEXUAL ASSAULTS OCCURRING ON CAMPUS.

THIS IS NOT HYSTERIA.

THE FOCUS ON SEXUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUS TYPICALLY AROUND ONE IF FIVE WOMEN IN COLLEGE WILL EXPERIENCE SOME FORM OF SEXUAL ASSAULT.

SO I THINK WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO DO IS SCHOOLS NEED TO STEP UP.

THEY NEED TO CREATE A MORE WELCOMING ENVIRONMENT FOR REPORTING.

THERE NEED TO BE CONSEQUENCES FOR REPORTING.

THEY NEED TO LOOK AT THE WAY THEY'RE COLLECTING THE DATA A LOT OF TIMES THE WAY WE ASK THE QUESTIONS CAN LEAD TO THE WRONG SCENES ANSWERS COMING ABOUT.

THEY NEED TO LOOK AT HOW THEY'RE REPORTING OUT THEIR STATISTICS.

WE NEED TO SEE A BIG CHANGE.

ADMITTING A PROBLEM IS THE FIRST STEP TO CORRECTING A PROBLEM.

>> I'M VERY INTERESTED IN MAKING SURE WE HAVE THE RIGHT DATA AND THAT IT IS RELIABLE.

ONE OF THE THINGS I HAVE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT WHEN I READ THAT SOME OF THE DATA ON CAMPUS RAPES ISN'T RIGHT.

THE ONE IN FIVE STATISTICS THAT CAME ABOUT FROM A JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SURVEY THAT EXTRAPOLATED ON 1.7% OF RESPOND ANTS FILLING OUT THE FULL SURVEY TO WHAT IF THEY HAD COMPLETED THE SURVEY.

WHAT WOULD THEY HAVE SAID?

NOW WE HAVE ONE IN FIVE WOMEN ON CAMPUS WHO WILL BE RAPED.

THAT CREATES A CLIMATE OF FEAR AND CAN OBSCURE WHEN THERE REALLY IS A PROBLEM AND A WOMAN REALLY HAS EXPERIENCED A SEXUAL ASSAULT.

>> WHY THE DIFFERENCE THEN?

>> THE DIFFERENCE IN STATISTICS?

>> YEAH.

>> I THINK IT'S TRICKY.

FIRST OF ALL IT'S EXTREMELY PERSONAL AND I THINK WHEN SOMEONE EXPERIENCES THAT, A LOT OF THE STUDIES SAY THE WOMAN FEELS A LOT OF SHAME AND BLAMES HERSELF AND A LOT OF VICTIMS DON'T WANT TO REPORT.

THEN I THINK THIS ISN'T NECESSARILY THE CASE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

I THINK IT VARIES CAMPUS BY CAMPUS BUT IN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM THE PROSPECT OF HOW A VICTIM IS GOING TO BE HANDLED, INTERVIEWED, DEBRIEFED.

IS HER RAPE KIT PROCESSED.

WILL SHE HAVE TO FACE THIS PERSON IN COURT KEEPS PEOPLE FROM GOING THROUGH WITH THE PROCESS EVEN IF THEY REPORT IT IN THE FIRST LA IS.

>> THIS IS NOT GOING AWAY THE WAY WE ARE GOING AT IT.

I DON'T THINK THE UNIVERSITIES ARE LYING.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THE WOMEN ARE COMING FORWARD.

THERE IS NO DETERRENT.

THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT.

WHEN IT IS REPORTED COUNTLESS INCIDENTS OF NOTHING HAPPENING TO THE MAN.

I THINK WOMEN, INSTEAD OF RELYING ON FORCES OUTSIDE OF THEMSELVES, ARE GOING HAVE TO TAKE THIS UNTO THEMSELVES.

JUST THIS WEEK FIVE HOWARD UNIVERSITY STUDENTS SUED THE UNIVERSITY BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN RAPED OR ASSAULTED BY FELLOW STUDENTS OR EVEN BY A STAFF.

UNLESS WOMEN COME FORWARD AND TAKE OWNERSHIP OF THIS PROBLEM, THE PROBLEM IS GOING TO REMAIN WITH US, BONNIE.

>> BUT HOW ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE IN THE DATA?

WHERE DID DO YOU THINK THAT'S COMING FROM?

FROM SHAME ABOUT REPORTING OR UNIVERSITIES NOT DOING THEIR JOB AND COLLECTING IT?

>> I THINK IT'S COMING FROM THE FACT THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANONYMOUS SURVEYS.

IF YOU WERE TO DO A SURVEY YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO PUT YOUR NAME TO IT.

THAT'S WHEN I THINK YOU WOULD GET THE BEST DATA.

WE NEED EVERY UNIVERSITY TO DO THESE ANONYMOUS SURVEYS AND SEE WHAT WE COME UP WITH.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY CHANCE BECAUSE OF THE HUGE PUBLICITY THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN GETTING IN THE LAST...

I MEAN 2015 WAS THE YEAR THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, THAT THE SURVEY WAS BASED ON.

BUT IS THERE ANY CHANCE STATS ARE GOING DOWN NOW BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH MORE PUBLICITY ON THE TOPIC?

>> I SEE THE STATS GOING UP AND THEN OF COURSE THIS IS ONLY JUDGED BY THE DAY TO DAY REPORTS.

BUT IT LOOKS LIKE PREDATORS ARE GETTING BOLDER.

SHOW ME THE ENFORCEMENT.

I DON'T SEE MUCH OF THAT.

WHEN YOU HAVE AS WIDESPREAD A CRIME, AND THAT'S WHAT IT IS, AS RAPE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT IS.

YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE THE ONLY DETERRENT THAT THE LAW KNOWS.

AND THAT IS YOU DO IT AT LEAST SOME OF YOU, WILL, IN FACT, BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR IT.

>> I THINK AS SPEAKING AS A REPORTER HERE, THE DIFFICULTY IS IF SOMEONE ISN'T REPORTING A CRIME AND YOU ARE A REPORTER WHO COVERS CRIME LIKE I WAS IN COLLEGE.

I DID THAT FOR A SEMESTER AND I HAD TO COVER THIS VERY ISSUE, THAT'S ALL THAT YOU CAN GO OFF OF.

YOU CAN ONLY GO OFF THE POLICE REPORTS OR AS YOU WERE SAYING SURVEYS AT THE UNIVERSITIES WOULD BE DOING OR DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE STATISTIC WHETHER OR NOT YOU THINK THAT IS RIGHT.

>> CAN YOU DO ANY DIGGING TO FIND OUT PARTICULARLY ON THIS TOPIC WHETHER WOMEN WERE RELUCTANT TO COME FORWARD SOME.

>> AND ABSOLUTELY YOU CAN BUT THEN YOU ALSO GET INTO THE FACT OF WHETHER OR NOT AS A REPORTER ABLE DO SOMETHING I WOULD CONSIDER SCIENTIFIC.

IF YOU GO UP AND ASK 100 PEOPLE ON CAMPUS BUT ALSO I THEY THAT ANONYMOUS SURVEY WOULD BE A LOT MORE, SOME OF THE PEOPLE WOULD BE WILLING TO ANSWER RATHER THAN TELLING A REPORTER.

I DIDN'T WANT TO TALK TO THE POLICE ABOUT THIS BUT I'LL TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS?

THAT'S WHY I THINK EVERYBODY IS SAYING WOULD BE HELPFUL.

>> THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK, TO THE CONTRARY, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE VERSION OF THE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY" PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT WWW.PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY