>>> COMING UP, IT'S THE EPIC TALE OF THE RISE AND FALL OF ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST POWERFUL INDIAN TRIBES.

BUT IT'S ALSO THE INTIMATE STORY OF A MOTHER AND HER CHILDREN.

I TALK WITH AUTHOR SAM GWYNNE ABOUT HIS BOOK "EMPIRE OF THE SUMMER MOON."

A FINALIST FOR THE PULITZER PRIZE.

THAT'S "DIALOGUE."

STAY TUNED.

>>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO DOIRKS I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN.

>>> SAM GWYNNE WAS A SELF-DESCRIBED CONNECTICUT YANKEE IN KING ARTHUR'S COURT WHEN HE MOVED TO TEXAS AS A REPORTER.

BUT HE QUICKLY FELL IN LOVE WITH THE STATE, PARTICULARLY THE VAST PLAINS OF NORTH TEXAS, NEARLY 50,000 SQUARE MILES OF SHORT GRASS PRAIRIE AND CANYON.

AS HE TRAVELED THE AREA, GWYNNE LEARNED ABOUT THE STORY OF CYNTHIA ANNE PARKER, A 9-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO WAS KIDNAPPED BY THE COMANCHE TRIBE AROUND 1836.

PARKER SPENT 24 YEARS WITH THE TRIBE AND GAVE BIRTH TO THREE CHILDREN WITH HER HUSBAND, A COMANCHE.

ONE OF THOSE CHILDREN, QUANAH, WOULD GO ON TO BECOME THE COMANCHES' MOST POWERFUL WARRIOR OF THAT ERA.

GWYNNE, WHOSE PREVIOUS BOOKS HAD BEEN ABOUT BANKING ISSUES, WAS SO STRUCK ABOUT THE STORY HE DECIDED TO WRITE ABOUT IT.

THE RESULTING BOOK, "EMPIRE OF THE SUMMER MOON," WAS NOMINATED FOR A PULITZER PRIZE IN 2011.

I SPOKE WITH GWYNNE ABOUT HIS BOOK AT THE SUN VALLEY WRITERS' CONFERENCE.

SINCE 1995 THE CONFERENCE HAS BEEN BRINGING TOGETHER AUTHORS AND ARTISTS TO DISCUSS THEIR WORK AND ISSUES OF THE DAY.

I STARTED BY ASKING GWYNNE WHY THE STORIES THE COMANCHES, CRIPTH YA, AND QUANAH AREN'T MORE WIDELY KNOWN.

I HAVE TO SAY, I WAS EMBARRASSED, WHEN I READ YOUR BOOK I THOUGHT, WHY DID I NOT KNOW THIS STORY?

DO YOU HEAR THAT OFTEN?

>> ALL THE TIME.

AND IT DESCRIBES ME.

THAT IS ME, THAT'S WHY I WROTE THE BOOK.

BECAUSE I'M YOUR CLASSIC KIND OF CONNECTICUT YANKEE, WHO COMES TO TEXAS IN THIS CASE AND IS SORT OF TOO DUMB TO KNOW ANY BETTER.

I STARTED HEARING THIS STUFF ABOUT THESE PEOPLE THAT ARE IN THE BOOK, COMANCHES AND OTHERS, AND I HAD THE SAME REACTION.

WHY DON'T I KNOW THESE PEOPLE?

WHY HAVE I NEVER HEARD OF THIS?

WHY ISN'T THIS FRONT AND CENTER IN AMERICAN MYTH?

WHY AREN'T SOME OF THESE PEOPLE LIKE DAVY CROCKETT A HOUSEHOLD NAME?

AND ALSO FRANKLY FROM A PURELY PRACTICAL POINT OF VIEW, A WRITER SITTING THERE KNOWING THAT HE HAS AN IDEA THAT NO ONE IN NEW YORK HAS EVER HEARD OF, IS A PRETTY GOOD DEAL.

YOU TAKE A PROJECT AND SAY, I'VE GOT THESE GUYS YOU ALL HAVE NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE.

IT ISN'T THE FIRST BOOK EVER DONE ABOUT IT, BUT A LOT OF THE BOOKS WERE DONE BY SMEARL ACADEMIC PRESSES THAT DON'T GET WIDE CIRCULATION -- >> AND A MOVIE PERHAPS LOOSELY BASED ON THIS STORY.

>> SOME MOVIES, YES.

SOME JOHN WAYNE MOVIES HAD COMANCHES WITH THEM, BUT THEY WERE A VERY TO ME AS A KID IT WAS -- I KNEW THE APACHES, I THOUGHT I DID, MUCH BETTER FROM THE MOVIES.

PEACH WAS THE BUZZ -- APACHE WAS THE BUZZ WORD FOR DANGER.

BUT IT WAS A CODE WORD AND THEY NEVER GOT MUCH DEEPER THAN THAT.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK WE DON'T KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS STORY IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> THAT IS ANOTHER QUESTION.

THAT'S HARDER TO SAY.

CUSTER IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF WHY WE HAVE HEARD OF SOMEBODY.

THE REASON WE HAVE HEARD OF CUSTER, HE TRAVELED WITH PRESS CORPS.

KESTER WAS A MEDIA HOUND.

CUSTER UNDERSTOOD ALL THOSE THINGS.

SO YOU GET A GUY LIKE RANDALL MACKENZIE, ONE OF THE HEROES IF YOU WILL OF MY BOOK, WHO WAS ACTUALLY THE GREATEST INDIAN FIGHTER, CUSTER IS ONE OF THE WORST, NOBODY'S HEARD OF RANDALL McKENZIE.

HE WAS A MAJOR INDIAN FIGHTER.

HE OPERATED IN PART OF THE WORLD WHERE THERE WERE NO NEWSPAPERS.

HE DIDN'T HAVE A PRESS CORPS, ONE OF THE WAYS ACTUALLY -- GOING BACK TO THE MILITARY SIDE OF THIS, THE WAY YOU ENHANCE YOURSELF IS BY WRITING LONG, FLOWERY MILITARY REPORTS ABOUT THIS INCREDIBLE BATTLE.

NOBODY -- THESE PEOPLE IN THE TEXAS FRONTIER DIDN'T DO THAT.

SO THERE WAS A BIT OF THAT TOO.

AS FOR WHY SOMEONE LIKE QUANAH IS NOT KNOWN, BUT GERONIMO IS, I THINK THE ANSWER THERE IS PROBABLY GERONIMO DID THIS ONE THING THAT WAS VERY FOCUSED, IT HAPPENED OVER A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE HE TOOK A VERY SMALL BAND AND ALLUDED VERY LARGE ARMY.

AND IT WAS SOMETHING YOU COULD PUT YOUR HANDS ON.

QUANAH DIDN'T HAVE QUITE AS FOCUSED A PIECE.

QUANAH TO ME IS THE GREATER MAN IN ALL WAYS.

BUT IT WAS SPREAD OUT A LITTLE BIT.

THE RED RIVER WAR -- >> BUT FOR TEXANS, THIS IS A STORY THEY KNOW.

YES?

AND IN FACT SOME OF THEM CAN STILL INTIMATELY RELATE TO IT.

>> YEAH.

AND IF YOU GO BACK -- THE FUNNY THING ABOUT THIS BOOK, MAYBE IN NEW YORK THEY HAVEN'T HEARD OF IT, BUT IN THE 1930s, EVER TEXAS SCHOOL CHILD KNEW WHO CYNTHIA ANNE PARKER WAS.

SHE WAS THE LITTLE GIRL TAKEN FROM THE FRONTIER IN 1936, AND SHE WAS TAKEN TO THE COMANCHE AND SHE WAS ADOPTED BY THEM, AND SHE REFUSED TO COME BACK.

SHE WAS THE WHITE SQUAW WHO REFUSED TO COME BACK.

SHE ASSIMILATED, SHE MARRIED A CHIEF, SHE HAD CHILDREN, HER SON BECAME THE GREATEST CHIEF OF THE COMANCHES.

SO WHEN YOU HAD THIS STORY BUILT INTO TEXAS FOLKLORE AND TEXAS HISTORY THAT EVERYBODY KNEW.

AND I THINK SOMETIMES THESE STORIES JUST GO OUT OF CURRENCY BECAUSE NO ONE HAS COME BACK AND TOLD THEM RECENTLY.

>> THAT WAS ANOTHER THEME, I DIDN'T REALIZE THERE HAD BEEN SO MANY PEOPLE KIDNAPPED, SO MANY YOUNG WHITE GIRLS AND WOMEN -- >> AND BOYS.

>> AND YOUNG MEN, TAKEN, SOMETIMES RANSOMED, SOMETIMES NOT.

THERE'S ANOTHER PIECE OF THIS STORY THAT SOMEHOW ELUDED MY AMERICAN HISTORY BOOKS, OR MY COGNIZANCE WHEN I READ THEM, BUT YOU THINK I WOULD HAVE REMEMBERED THAT.

>> CAPTIVES WERE VERY COMMON, AND THERE'S A LOT IN THE BOOK, AS YOU SAID, THAT ISN'T IN COMMON CURRENCY.

TEXANS, YOUNGER CXIANS DON'T KNOW IT ANYMORE.

A LOT OF CAPTIVES.

THE CAPTIVES WHO ENDED UP -- IF YOU WERE AN ADULT YOU WERE KILLED OR MADE A SLAVE, BASICALLY, AND THAT'S WHAT THEY DID, OTHER INDIAN TRIBES.

INFANTRY USUALLY WERE KILLED BECAUSE NO ONE WANTED TO DEAL WITH THEM.

YOU HAD THIS MIDDLE GROUND OF CHILDREN WHO WERE TAKEN IN.

THERE WERE MEXICANS, AND BOYS AND GIRLS OF OTHER INDIAN TRIBES.

IT WAS NOT JUST WHITE PEOPLE THAT IT HAPPENED TO.

AS LONG AS WE'RE STILL ON THE SUBJECT THINGS PEOPLE DON'T KNOW, THERE ARE SO CORNERS OF THIS STORY THAT WERE REVELATION TO ME RESEARCHING THEM AS WELL AS READERS NOW READ CAN THEM.

FOR EXAMPLE, JOHN COFFEE HAYES, HE WAS THE GREATEST TEXAS RANGER.

HE WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST MILITARY COMMANDERS WE EVER PRODUCED.

HE WAS THE ORIGIN -- IN FACT, OF A LOT OF THOSE DIME STORE NOVEL MYTHS WE CAME TO KNOW.

HE WAS THE GREATEST INDIAN FIGHTER ON THE FRONTIER AND HE WAS THE MAN WHO ADAPTED, INVENTED -- ADAPTED THE SIX SHOOTER.

AND -- IN ORDER TO FIGHT COMANCHES.

SO YOU HAVE THIS AMAZING TALE OF THE RISE OF THE RANGERS WHO IMITATE THE COMANCHE FIGHTING METHODS, AND ADAPTED THIS FIVE-SHOT THING THAT SAMUEL COLTON MADE, AND COLT OF ALL PEOPLE -- YOU THINK OF MACKENZIE AS HE'S THE GREATEST INDIAN FIGHTER BUT NOBODY'S EVER HEARD OF HIM, QUANAH, YOU KEEP GOING THROUGH THE BOOK.

OF ALL THE PEOPLE NOBODY'S EVER HEARD OF.

>> ONE OF THE CENTERPIECES I THINK OF YOUR BOOK IS THAT YOU'RE TELLING THESE SMALLER STORIES ABOUT INDIVIDUALS THAT YOU'VE JUST MENTIONED, AND WE'LL COME BACK AND TALK ABOUT SOME OF THEM, BUT THEN THERE'S THE BIG STORY.

WHICH IS THAT OF THE COMANCHE AND HOW THEY PLAY INTO THE DEVELOPMENT EVENTUALLY OF THE AMERICAN WEST.

YOU HAVE CALLED THIS TRIBE THE MOST POWERFUL IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHY?

>> IT'S INTERESTING, IT'S AN INTERESTING POINT THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE ASKED ME, DOES THAT MEAN IF YOU PUT A COMANCHE WARRIOR AGAINST A SIOUX WARRIOR, OR IF THEY FOUGHT A BATTLE ON A FIELD THE COMANCHE WAS WIN?

WHO KNOWS.

THE SIOUX WERE AWESOME WARRIORS, AND THERE WERE PLENTY OF OTHER PLAINS TRIBES THAT WERE.

WHAT I MEAN BY POWERFUL IS THE ABILITY TO CHANGE OR INFLUENCE HISTORY.

THAT'S I DON'T THINK ANYBODY COMES CLOSE.

THE REASON IS THE BIG PICTURE OF THE COMANCHES ARE THEY'RE THE TRIBE THAT WILL REALLY TELL YOU EVERYTHING ABOUT HOW THE SOUTH PLAINS OPENED TO AMERICAN AND ANGELO EUROPEAN SETTLEMENT COMING IN.

THEY WERE THIS ENORMOUS BARRIER EVERYBODY HAD TO DEAL WITH.

THEY BLOCKED THE SPANISH FROM COMING NORTH, THEY BLOCKED THE MEXICANS, THEY BLOCKED THE FRENCH MOVING WEST OUT OF LOUISIANA.

THEY ACCOUNTED FOR THE RISE OF THE TEXAS RANGERS.

THEY STOPPED THE ENTIRE FRONTIER, AMERICAN FRONTIER FOR 40 YEARS ALONG A SINGLE LINE.

NOBODY EVER DID ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

SO YOU HAD THIS PRINCIPLE SITTING THERE, 250,000 SQUARE MILES OF LAND THAT NOBODY COULD FIGURE OUT.

AND IT WENT LONG -- YOU WOULD THINK THAT THE -- FOR EXAMPLE, LET'S SAY DURING THE CIVIL WAR, WHERE BOTH SIDES UNLEASHED THE GREATEST CARNAGE WITH THE BIGGEST GUNS AND MOST -- EVERY FIRE POWER THAT HAD EVER BEEN DONE BEFORE.

EVEN AFTER THE CIVIL WAR IT TOOK 10 YEARS TO FINALLY FORCE COMANCHES ON TO A RESERVATION.

SO IT'S THIS ENORMOUS POWER PRINCIPLE, IF YOU START TO READ ABOUT IT, WILL TELL YOU, TEACH YOU HOW TEXAS GOT FOUND AND WHY THE RANGERS CAME UP, AND IT'S EVEN -- THERE'S EVEN GO FARTHER THAN THAT AND SAY TEXAS ITSELF IS A RESULT OF A MISGUIDED ATTEMPT TO STOP COMANCHES, BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENED WAS THE MEXICANS SAID IN ORDER TO STABILIZE THEIR NORTHERN FRONTIER, THEY LET THE RED NECKS IN FROM ALABAMA AND TENNESSEE, OK, AND -- >> YOU COULD LIVE THERE.

WE DON'T WANT TO.

>> AND IT'S AN OLD TECHNIQUE.

STABILIZE YOUR FRONTIER BY SETTLING.

AND IT BACKFIRED ON THEM, WHEN TEXAS GOT ITS INDEPENDENCE.

BUT YOU CAN KEEP GOING WITH IT.

THE BACK STORY THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS THE REASON THAT REALLY I THINK THE COMANCHES ARE A GREAT STORY.

THEY TELL YOU ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

>> AND THE WEST REALLY WAS AREN'T TRULY WON UNTIL -- >> THEY LOST IT.

EXACTLY.

WE WON, YOU KNOW, ONLY AFTER THEY LOST.

BECAUSE THERE WAS -- NOTHING WAS MOVING, AND THERE WERE LOTS -- YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED WAS WHAT HAPPENED WITH ALMOST EVERY SINGLE OTHER AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBE.

THEY WERE STEAM ROLLED PRETTY QUICKLY.

THE FIRE POWER OFFSET WAS TOO GREAT.

NOT THESE GUYS.

>> YOU'VE BEEN ASKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE, I THINK IT BEARS ASKING AGAIN -- YOU TALK ABOUT VIOLENCE, AND YOU DEPICT IT RIGHT FROM THE VERY START.

AND THAT IS WHAT I MEAN TO SAY IS THE VIOLENCE PERPETRATED BY NAVETIVE AMERICANS ON EACH OTHER AND ON NONNATIVES.

AND IT IS EXPLICIT.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING I KNOW THAT YOU FELT WAS IMPORTANT, THAT, WHILE WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT TRIBES BEING VICTIMS, THEY WERE ALSO EXTREMELY POWERFUL IN THEIR OWN RIGHT, AND INVOLVED IN WAR.

>> THEY WERE WARLIKE.

I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST SURPRISES TO ME IN TERMS OF REACTION TO MY BOOK IS, I WAS BEING INTERVIEWED ON RADIO AT ONE POINT AND SOMEBODY SAID TO ME, SAM, DID YOU HAVE TO REALLY SIT DOWN AND TAKE A DEEP BREATH BEFORE YOU WROTE A COMPLETE REVISIONIST HISTORY OF NATIVE AMERICANS?

I JUST LOOKED AT THEM AND THOUGHT, WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.

I NOW DO.

WHAT HE MEANT WAS, IN THE -- I SAY IN THE '60s WHEN IT HAPPENED, THERE WAS A SHIFT IN THE SENTIMENT ABOUT THE WAY WE FELT ABOUT NATIVE AMERICANS.

IT WAS THE SENSE THEY WERE KIND OF NICE, DOES ILL, PEACEFUL, THEY JUST WANTED TO LIVE THEIR LIVES, AND WE WERE -- THE GREAT AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, CULTURAL MILITARY MACHINE JUST ROLLED OVER THEM AND DESTROYED THEM IN A SERIES OF HUNDREDS OF BROKEN TREATIES.

IT'S A FAMILIAR STORY.

A LOT OF THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

WHAT IS NOT TRUE IS THAT THE INDIANS WERE NOT POWERFUL, OR NOT GOOD AT WAR, OR NOT WARLIKE.

THEY WERE.

AND EVEN IF YOU GO BACK -- IF YOU GO BACK TO THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES, THE TRAGIC ONES, BECAUSE THEY ADOPTED WHITE MAN'S WAYS AND THEY WERE BEING DRIVEN FROM THE SOUTHEAST ACROSS INTO I.S.U., IN SPITE OF THE FACT THEY WERE TRYING TO GET ALONG.

IF YOU GO BACK TO THE EARLY PEOPLE LIKE THAT, THEY WERE VIOLENT.

THEY WERE GOOD WARRIORS.

SO WHAT I TRIED TO DO IS -- I WASN'T -- I WAS NOT TRYING TO PUSH AGAINST THAT MYTH, I WASN'T EVEN AWARE OF IT, THAT I WAS DOING IT.

BUT BY JUST SAYING, LOOK, THESE ARE WARLIKE FOLKS, THEY FIGHT EACH OTHER, THEY WERE FIGHTING BEFORE WE GOT HERE, IT WAS A WAY OF LIFE.

THEY DID TO EACH OTHER WHAT THEY DID TO WHITE PEOPLE LATER.

THE DIFFERENCE IS WHEN THEY DID IT TO WHITE PEOPLE, THIS WAS -- THESE WERE PEOPLE OF THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, THIS WAS THE GROUP THAT WAS NOW HORRIFIED HORRIFIED.

A CROW OR A UTE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN HORRIFIED IF ONE OF THEIR WARRIORS HAD BEEN TAKEN AND TORTURED BY COMANCHES.

JUST AS THE COMANCHES WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN HORRIFIED AS THE UTES WOULD TAKE THE COMANCHE MAN AND TORTURED HIM.

WHICH THEY WOULD HAVE DONE.

THEY WERE HUNTING THE BUFFALO, IT WAS A SUSTAINABLE ECOSYSTEM, THEY FOUGHT EACH OTHER, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS YOU ENTER THE ANGELO EUROPEAN.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

SO IT'S A QUESTION OF POINT OF VIEW I GUESS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE ANGELO EUROPEANS.

A RIVETTING STORY OF CYNTHIA ANNE PARKER, YOU'VE ALREADY MENTIONED, A 9-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO WAS TAKEN BY THE COMANCHES ULTIMATELY MARRIED A COMANCHE, AND HAD QUANAH AND TWO OTHER CHILDREN.

SHE SPENT 24 YEARS WITH THE TRIBE, WAS DISCOVERED A FEW TIMES BY PEOPLE, AND SAID, NO.

I DO NOT WANT TO LEAVE.

>> WHICH WAS SHOCKING.

SHOCKING TO WHITE SETTLERS AT THE TIME.

>> WAS IT -- >> BECAUSE CAPTIVES WERE TAKEN AND EXCHANGED, AND IN FACT CAPTIVES IN HER POSITION WERE OFTEN EXCHANGED -- NOT IN HER POSITION, BUT OFTEN TO SAY ADULT WOMEN WERE TAKEN AND BROUGHT BACK, AND IT WAS A BADGE OF SHAME BECAUSE PEOPLE HAD IMAGINED WHAT HAD BEEN DONE TO THEM.

>> SOME OF THESE YOUNG LADIES WROTE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

>> RACHEL DID, YEAH.

>> WHICH WAS AMAZING.

>> BUT YEAH, IT'S -- IT WAS A SHOCKING THING.

SHE WANTED TO STAY.

>> DO YOU THINK IT WAS SOME SORT MUCH WHAT WE NOW CALL STOCKHOLM SYNDROME, WHERE YOU IDENTIFY WITH YOUR CAPTORS, OR DO YOU BELIEVE SHE REALLY -- >> I THINK IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE YOU -- IF YOU LOOK AT CYNTHIA ANNE AND HER SON QUANAH, THEY'RE TWO OF THE MOST BRILLIANT CULTURAL ADAPTERS OF THE AMERICAN WEST.

ALL THE EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THAT SHE WAS HAPPY, SHE WAS HAPPY IN HER LIFE.

THAT SHE HAD LET THE OLD ONE GO.

HER SON, WHEN HE -- AFTER THE SURRENDER OF THE COMANCHES, BECAME THE -- I THINK THE GREATEST INDIAN OF THE POST-SURRENDER YEARS, OF THE RESERVATION YEARS, AND DWHROOND HE WAS WEALTHY, HE WAS INFLUENTIAL, HE LED HIS TRIBE, HE TESTIFIED -- HE OUTWITTED SENATORS IN TESTIMONY IN WASHINGTON, HE OUTWITTED TEXAS CATTLEMEN IN LEASING GAMES.

HE WAS A REMARKABLE MAN.

BUT QUANAH TOOK THAT MOMENT OF THE SURRENDER AND ADAPTED COMPLETELY TO THE WHITE CULTURE.

THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT CYNTHIA ANNE, SHE ADOPTED BRILLIANTLY TO COMANCHE CULTURE BUT SHE WAS ASKED TO DO IT TO US.

WHEN SHE WAS TAKEN WHEN SHE WAS 9, RECAPTURED WHEN SHE WAS -- IN 1860, IN HER 40s, SHE DID IT ONCE AFTER SHE WAS 9 AND THEN SHE WAS DRAGGED BACK INTO THE CONSERVATIVE LIE SAYINGS IN TEXAS.

AND ASKED TO DO IT AGAIN.

SHE WASN'T QUITE THAT BRILLIANT.

>> YOU GOT A LITTLE BIT AHEAD OF ME.

I WAS GOING TO SAY, SHE WAS ASKED A COUPLE TIMES WHEN SHE WAS DISCOVERED TO LEAVE AND SHE SAID NO, AND ULTIMATELY SHE WAS TOLD, YOU'RE LEAVING BECAUSE THEY RECAPTURED HER.

THE WORLD HAD CHANGED COMPLETELY FROM THE 24 YEARS SINCE SHE HAD ORIGINALLY BEEN TAKEN.

HER STORY SEEMS TO ME TO BE ONE OF THE SADDEST I HAVE EVER READ.

THAT SHE TRIED OVER AND OVER AGAIN TO GET BACK TO THE TRIBE, TO THE POINT WHERE HER FAMILY JUST KEPT MOVING HER.

>> EVER EASTWARD.

>> PARTICULARLY POIGNANT SCENE, SHE WAS INTRODUCED TO A FORMER CAPTIVE WHO SPOKE THE LANGUAGE, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN OPENED UP AND THOUGHT, MAYBE THIS IS MY CHANCE, IF I CAN CONVINCE HIM IN THE NATIVE DIALECT TO TAKE ME BACK TO THE TRIBE.

AND THAT NEVER OCCURRED.

>> I DO THINK IT IS ONE OF THE SADDEST STORIES OF THE WEST.

SHE REALLY -- SHE -- WHEN SHE WAS TAKEN SHE WENT AND SHE MOURNED, AND SHE CUT HERSELF, AND SHE TRIED TO ESCAPE EVERY CHANCE SHE GOT.

AND THEN THE PARKER FAMILY, WHICH WAS A VERY PROMINENT FAMILY IN TEXAS, DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT TO DO, SO THEY KEPT SHUFFLING HER FROM ONE RELATIVE TO ANOTHER, GENERALLY AWAY FROM THE PLAINS, FARTHER EAST INTO THE PINEY WOODS OF EAST TEXAS.

AND SHE NEVER SAW HER SON AGAIN, AND SHE LOST HER DAUGHTER, AND IT'S JUST SOMEONE WHO COULD NEVER GO BACK, AND THERE WAS NEVER ANY WAY SHE COULD.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT HER SON, QUANAH, WHO WAS NOT CAPTURED WHEN SHE WAS, AND WENT ON TO AS YOU SAY, BECOME ONE OF THE GREAT WARRIORS.

DESCRIBE HIS SKILL, WHAT MADE HIM SO UNIQUE.

IS THERE ANY OTHER PARALLEL LIKE HIM?

>> HE WAS A GREAT WARRIOR FROM WHAT WE KNOW.

HE WAS -- THE SON OF A CHIEF, AND FROM THE DESCRIPTIONS OF HIS FATHER, HIS FATHER WAS A BIG MAN.

CRANCHS WERE NOT BIG IN STATURE.

THEY WERE BRILLIANT HORSEMEN, BUT THEY WEREN'T TALL.

AS SOME OF THE NORTHERN PLAINS TRIBES WERE.

>> BUT HIS MOM WAS KIND OF TALL.

>> YEAH.

EXACTLY.

SO YOU GET HIS FATHER, HE WAS VERY BIG.

ALL THE DESCRIPTIONS OF HIM, VERY BIG, MUSCULAR MAN.

SINCE YA ANNE AS FAR AS WE KNOW, 5'8" OR 5'9", 140.

WE'RE TALKING A STRAPPING PIONEER WOMAN.

SHE MARRIES, AND THEY HAVE QUANAH AND PICTURES YOU CAN SEE THERE'S A COUPLE IN MY BOOK WHERE YOU CAN SEE THE MASSIVE BICEPS AND FOREARMS.

>> IN ADDITION TO HIS PHYSICAL PROWESS, HE WAS EXTREMELY SMART.

ALWAYS ONE STEP AHEAD IN THE BAND OF COMANCHES THAT WERE THE MOST -- THAT STAYED OUT THE LONGEST.

>> RIGHT.

HE WAS PART OF -- THEY LIVED WAY UP IN THE TEXAS PANHANDLE, BY AMARILLO, HE WAS A BRILLIANT MAN.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S INTERESTING, PEOPLE ASK ME WHY -- HOW A MAN LIKE THIS COULD HAVE ADAPTED SO WELL.

HE WASN'T A SELLOUT AT ALL.

HE WORE HIS HAIR LONG IN BRAIDS, HE KEPT HIS SEVEN WIVES, HE WAS -- HE WAS NOT A SELLOUT.

BUT HE WAS A VERY CLEVER EXPHAN HE WAS GOOD AT BUILDING CONSENSUS.

PEOPLE SAY HOW CAN HE MAKE THIS STEP OUT OF THE WILD WHEN HE'S ON HORSEBACK, MAKING RAIDS AND KILLING PEOPLE, AND HE'S SUDDENLY IN A TIPI IN I.S.U.

ON A RESERVATION.

I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT QUANAH, ONE OF THE THINGS IF YOU ARE COMANCHE -- THE COMANCHES HAD A KIND OF FLAT ORGANIZATION.

YOU COULD -- IF YOU WERE AN INTIENING MAN YOU COULD BECOME A WAR CHIEF.

ALL YOU HAD TO DO IS RECRUIT A PARTY.

100, 200 PEOPLE, TAKE REVENGE ON THE UTES OR WHATEVER YOU WANTED TO DO.

QUANAH WAS BRILLIANT AT THAT, GETTING PEOPLE TO TRUST AND FOLLOW HIM, A LEADER.

I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT A PERSON WHO IS A CIVIC LEADER, THOUGH IT'S NOT AS ROMANTIC, IT'S A LOT MORE BORING, THAN LEAD AGUIAR PARTY ON THE PLAINS, SOME OF THOSE ARE THE SAME.

YOU WANT TO TRUST THE PERSON, YOU WANT TO HAVE CONFIDENCE, CONFIDENCE IN THE PERSON'S JUDGMENT.

IN THE PERSON'S SKILL.

ALL THOSE THINGS I THINK PERSONAL SKILLS.

>> BUT IT IS CONFUSING, AT LEAST IT WAS FOR ME, THAT THIS WARRIOR WHO HELD OUT AND HELD OUT AND HELD OUT, IN THE BOOK IT SEEMS HE -- WHEN IT WAS FROM A VISION QUEST OR WHATEVER, HE EXCEEDED PRETTY -- HE GAVE IN A PRETTY DOES ILL WAY.

>> WHEN HE DID.

HE WAS THE LAST ONE.

THERE WAS A COUPLE OF STRAY -- HE WAS THE LAST ONE TO COME IN.

WHEN HE TOOK HIS PEOPLE WHEN THEY WERE STARVING TO DEATH, AND THE REASON WAS THE WHITE MAN HAD KILLED ALL THE BUFFALO.

SO HE COMES IN, THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE FOUND HIM.

THEY TRIED, THEY COULDN'T.

HE WAS OUT THERE, HE CAME IN, WHEN HE MADE THAT DECISION, IT'S A VERY INTERESTING PART OF HIS LIFE, IT WAS A VISION.

HE HAD A VISION.

AND THE VISION WAS HE WAS GOING TO TAKE THE WHITE MAN TO LEAD HIS TRIBE THAT WAY.

>> THEY HATED WHITE MAN.

>> KILLED HIS FATHER.

>> EVERYTHING HE LOVED.

>> TOOK HIS MOTHER.

AND MOREOVER THERE ARE -- SO MUCH OF NATIVE AMERICAN LIFE YOU CANNOT SEE INTO BECAUSE THERE AREN'T RECORDS OF IT THERE.

WERE RAIDS MADE IN THE TEXAS HILL COUNTRY AROUND THE TIME QUANAH WAS DOING IT.

HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ON SOME OF THOSE RAIDS.

THERE WERE SOME OF THE MOST BRUTAL EVER DONE BY COMANCHES.

I GUARANTEE YOU HE WAS ON SOME OF THOSE RAIDS.

I CAN'T PROVE IT, BUT THAT WAS THE ERA, HE WAS A WAR PARTY LEADER, AND THIS WAS THAT GUY.

SO, YEAH, WHEN HE SAID I'M GOING TO TAKE THIS ROAD, IT WAS A VISION THAT TOOK IT TO DO IT.

>> HE BECAME A RANCHER, HE LOBBIED IN CONGRESS, HE START ADD SCHOOL DISTRICT, HE EVEN HAD TEDDY ROOSEVELT TO DINNER.

HE ALMOST SEEMS LIKE A GUY WHO TODAY WOULD BE ON TALK SHOWS, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

HE EMBRACED TECHNOLOGY.

I'M WONDERING IF YOU CONSIDER HIM A HERO.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> WHATEVER THAT WORD MEANS TO YOU.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

A GREAT AMERICAN HERO.

>> AMERICAN?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ONE OF THE GREATEST.

AND HE WAS -- IN EVERY WAY -- YOU KNOW, HIS GREATNESS I THINK, WE COULDN'T SEE HIM ALL THE TIME, WE SAW HIM VERY RARELY WHEN HE WAS A COMANCHE, WHEN HE WAS WITH THE TRIBE BEFORE THEIR SURRENDER IN 1875.

BUT WE REALLY COULD SEE HIM AFTER THAT.

WE COULD SEE WHAT HE DID.

HE INDEED MADE A FORTUNE.

HE GAVE ALL OF IT AWAY TO HIS PEOPLE.

HE WAS KNOWN AS A HEALER.

AT ANY MOMENT HE -- HE BUILT THIS BIG HOUSE, AND AT ANY MOMENT ATHRIEWND HOUSE THERE WERE DOZENS IF NOT MORE TIPIS OF PEOPLE WHO HAD COME TO QUANAH FOR HELP.

HE WAS A BRILLIANT, GENEROUS LEADER, A GOOD MAN WITH A DECENT GENEROUS SPIRIT, AND HE -- IT WASN'T GIVEN TO HIM.

LIKE LINCOLN, I ADMIRE LINCOLN VERY MUCH TOO, BUT LINCOLN HAD TO FIGHT EVERY MINUTE OF HIS POLITICAL CAREER.

SO DID QUANAH.

HE WAS CHALLENGED BY OTHER POLITICIANS IN THE TRIBE, BUT YES, I ABSOLUTELY THINK HE WAS A GREAT MAN.

THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO OBJECT TO WHAT HE MAY HAVE DONE AS A RAIDER, I'M SURE HE DID THAT, THAT WAS PART OF HIS LIFE.

HE WAS A COMANCHE.

THAT'S WHAT COMANCHES DID.

>> HE HAS LOTS OF DEFENDERS BECAUSE HE HAD MANY WIVES, AND I'VE SEEN A GREAT PICTURE OF YOU WITH ONE OF THEM, A GREAT-GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER.

WHAT'S BEEN THEIR REACTION TO THE BOOK?

>> THE DESCENDANTS?

>> YES.

>> SOME OF THEM -- A NUMBER OF THEM HAVE COME TO THE BOOK SIGNINGS, SOME OF THEM LIKED IT, THERE ARE SOME THAT DON'T AGREE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE DEATH OF QUANAH'S FATHER, I EXPLAIN IN MY BOOK THE COMANCHES HAVE -- QUANAH HAD A DIFFERENT VERSION IS IN MY BOOK.

THE COMANCHES BELIEVE HIM AND NOT ME.

I BELIEVE I'M RIGHT AND I DOCUMENT WHY I THINK I'M RIGHT.

SO THE COMANCHES DON'T AGREE WITH THAT OR LIKE THAT.

I'VE GOTTEN THEY FEEL IT'S CERTAINLY RESPECTFUL TO THE TRIBE, AND THEY THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING, SOME OF THEM DIDN'T KNOW SOME OF THE DETAILS.

SOME OF THEM DON'T -- AREN'T CRAZY ABOUT IT.

I THINK THERE ARE ABOUT 14,000 COMANCHES NOW AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, AND IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO POLL THEM.

VARIOUS DEGREES OF BLOOD, AND RELATIONSHIPS TO THE TRIBE.

I THINK FOR MY OWN POINT OF VIEW IT WAS A BOOK ESSENTIALLY ABOUT WHAT AN EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE THEY WERE.

>> HOW DID WRITING THIS BOOK TRANSFORM YOU?

>> YOU LIVE IN YOUR LANDSCAPE AS A PERSON WHEREVER YOU ARE.

YOU LIVE IN BOISE, OR AS I DO IN AUSTIN, TEXAS, AND YOU TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD IN WHICH YOU LIVE IN YOUR OWN SORT OF WAY.

THE -- I MOVED TO TEXAS, THE CONNECTICUT YANKEE COMES DOWN, DOESN'T KNOW MUCH, BUT I LOVE THE PLAINS, I LOVE TEXAS, AND I GUESS TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND -- TO BE ABLE TO GO THAT DEEP INTO YOUR OWN PLACE, WHERE YOU LIVE, WAS SOMETHING THAT JUST CHANGED THE WAY I LOOKED AT EVERYTHING.

I NEVER HAD DONE THAT WITH ANYTHING.

I'VE BEEN A JOURNALIST, I'VE DONE STORIES ABOUT LOTS OF THINGS, BUT I HAD NEVER GONE THAT DEEP INTO A PLACE IF YOU WILL.

AND TO SOME EXTENT THIS BOOK IS ABOUT MY LOVE AFFAIR WITH THE GREAT PLAINS.

WITH WEST TEXAS.

SO I THINK THAT -- MORE THAN ANYTHING, I FEEL THAT PART, I FEEL THE LANDSCAPE, THE LAND AND THE SENSE OF WHAT HAPPENED.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR TAKING TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> -- TO TALK ABOUT YOUR WORK.

I LOOK FORWARD TO READING YOUR NEXT BOOK.

>> I DO TOO.

WE'LL SEE.

>> YOU'VE BEEN LISTENING TO SAM GWYNNE, THE AOTHER OF "EMPIRE OF THE SUMMER MOON."

HIS NEXT BOOK IS TITLED "REBEL YELL," AND IS ABOUT GENERAL STONEWALL JACKSON, WHO LED CONFEDERATE TROOPS DURING THE CIVIL WAR.

TO LEDGER MORE, CHECK OUT MY WEB EXTRA WITH MR.

GR.

YOU'LL FIND IT BY GOING TO IDAHOPTV.ORG AND CLICKING ON "DIALOGUE."

THAT'S ALSO WHERE YOU CAN WATCH THIS INTERVIEW AGAIN OR FIND PAST CONVERSATIONS FROM THE SUN VALLEY WRITERS' CONFERENCE.

I'D LIKE TO THANK THE ORGANIZERS OF THAT CONFERENCE FOR FINDING TIME IN THE AUTHOR'S SCHEDULE FOR THEIR INTERVIEWS, AND THANK YOU FOR TUNING IN.

FOR DOIRKS I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN.

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