>> COMING UP, A JUDGE HAS RULED THAT WOLVES HAVE NOT SUFFICIENTLY RECOVERED FOR THEM TO BE TAKEN OFF THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST IN IDAHO.

THE STATE HAS VOWED TO CHALLENGE THAT DECISION.

IS THAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO?

WE'LL TALK WITH TWO OFFICIALS FROM THE IDAHO DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME NEXT AND TAKE YOUR QUESTIONS.

STAY TUNED.

>> HELLO, WELCOME TO "DIALOGUE."

I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN-A WELCOME AS WELL TO THOSE OF YOU LISTENING ON PUBLIC RADIO AND THE WORLDWIDE WEB.

>>> IT'S BEEN CALLED A NEVER ENDING STORY.

THE FIGHT OVER THE REINTRODUCTION OF GRAY WOLVES TO IDAHO.

THE U.S.

FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE TRANSPLANTED WOLVES TO IDAHO IN 1995.

IN APRIL 2009, NEARLY 15 YEARS LATER, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DECLARED THE ANIMAL RECOVERED IN THE STATE AND TOOK IT OFF THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST.

ADVOCATES FOR THE WOLVES SUED, SAYING THE REGION AS A WHOLE DIDN'T HAVE A PROPER RECOVERY PLAN.

MEANWHILE, IDAHO HAD ITS FIRST WOLF HUNTING SEASON WITH HUNTERS KILLING 188 OF THE ANIMALS.

JUST AS THE STATE WAS GEARING UP FOR ITS SECOND HUNTING SEASON, A FEDERAL JUDGE RULED BECAUSE WYOMING DOES HAVEN'T AN ADEQUATE WOLF MANAGEMENT PLAN, THE ANIMAL COULD NOT BE DELISTED IN IDAHO OR MONTANA.

IDAHO'S OFFICIALS REACTED STRONGLY, WITH THE GOVERNOR AND MEMBERS OF THE CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION SAYING THEY WOULD CHALLENGE THE DECISION.

SO WHAT'S NEXT FOR WOLF MANAGEMENT?

AND WHAT DO YOU THINK?

HERE TO TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE AND TAKE YOUR QUESTION ASSIST THE DIRECTOR OF THE IDAHO DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME, CAL GROEN, AND FISH AND GAME WILDLIFE MANAGER, JON RACHAEL.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF.

>> YOU THANK YOU.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE DECISION TO RELIST WOLVES AS ENDANGERED IN IDAHO?

AND WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD BE DONE FROM HERE ON OUT?

GIVE US A CALL, TOLL-FREE, AT 1-800-973-9800.

FIRST OF ALL, LET'S GO TO THE NEW NEWS.

I WANT TO THANK AN EMPLOYEE OF OUR STATION WHO JUST BROUGHT THIS IN TO ME, KEN.

IDAHO COUNTY, WHICH IS AROUND GRANGEVILLE, HAS APPARENTLY JUST DECLARED A DISASTER OVER WOLVES.

WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE DETAILS ON THAT, BUT I KNOW THAT YOU HAD GOTTEN HEADS UP THIS MIGHT HAPPEN.

WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THIS?

NORMALLY WE HEAR THE DISASTERS ARE CALLED BECAUSE OF A WEATHER SITUATION.

A FLOOD OR TORNADO.

WHY WOULD WOLVES CREATE A DISASTER IN A COUNTY?

>> I'M LOOKING FOR MORE DETAIL FROM IDAHO COUNTY, BUT ELK RIVER IS -- ELK ARE IMPORTANT TO THAT AREA, AND ELK ARE DEFINITELY DOWN.

PEOPLE DEPEND ON THEM.

WE USED TO HAVE VERY LIBERAL COW SEASONS.

WE HAVE REALLY CURTAILED THOSE IN THE BACK COUNTRY.

AND ALSO ECONOMICS.

HUNTERS BRING A LOT OF MONEY TO COMMUNITIES, AND HUCHTERS ARE PROBABLY DOWN 90% IN THOSE AREAS.

MAYBE THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE AIMING AT.

BUT HUNTERS ARE A BIG ECONOMIC FORCE, AND AGAIN, A LOT OF PEOPLE DEPEND ON WILDLIFE FOR NOURISHMENT.

>> NOW, JON RACHAEL, CAN YOU EXPLAIN, THERE IS A PROPOSAL, YOU'VE JUST FINISHED TAKING COMMENTS ON IT, TO HAVE A SPECIAL HUNT IN THAT AREA AROUND THE LOW LOW AREA.

FOR WOLVES.

WHAT'S THE NEXT STEP IN THAT?

>> WELL, WE HAVE JUST COMPLETED A COMMENT PERIOD, A PROPOSAL TO REDUCE WOLF MEMBERS UP IN OUR ELK MANAGEMENT ZONE.

THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY THAT WE'RE LIMITED TO BECAUSE WOLVES WERE RELISTED AND WE CANNOT ADDRESS THIS ISSUE THROUGH THE SPORT HUNTING SEASON.

THE PROPOSAL WILL BE TO REDUCE THEM 20 TO 30 ANIMALS -- >> OUT OF AN ESTIMATED -- >> PRESENTLY CLOSE TO 100 WOLVES.

>> QUITE A SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

>> YES.

AND WE HAVE JUST COMPLETED THE COMMENT PERIOD, WE'RE GOING THROUGH APPROXIMATELY 2,000 COMMENTS, EVALUATING THOSE, AND THEN WE'LL MAKE ANY NECESSARY MODIFICATIONS TO OUR PROPOSAL.

>> IF THE BULK OF THE 2,000 COMMENTS ARE AGAINST THIS PROPOSAL, WOULD THAT CHANGE YOUR DIRECTION?

>> NO.

WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IN THE COMMENTS IS TO SEE IF THERE'S SOME INFORMATION THAT WE NEED TO RECONSIDER OR ANYTHING THAT WE HAVE LEFT OUT AND FAILED TO ADDRESS.

SO WE'RE LOOK AT WAYS TO IMPROVE THE PROPOSAL.

>> AND THEN IT'S 60 DAYS AND THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE WILL GET BACK TO YOU ON WHETHER YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO THIS?

>> THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE HAS COMMITTED TO GET US AN ANSWER BACK WITHIN 60 DAYS OF THE PROPOSAL WHETHER WE CAN PROCEED.

>> WE'LL GO BACK TO OUR -- OUR ORIGINAL TOPICI, BUT THAT'S A STEEP DECLINE, TAKING AN ESTIMATED 100 WOLVES DOWN TO 20 OR 30.

DO YOU ANTICIPATE A CHALLENGE AS WE'VE SEEN ON MANY OF THESE ISSUES?

>> LET ME RESPOND TO THELOLO AREA.

I WAS THE SUPERVISOR FOR 10 YEARS.

WE USED TO HAVE 16,000 ELK, AND THERE'S 2200-MILE AREA.

EIGHT ELK PER SQUARE MILE.

WE HAD A DIFFICULT WINTER.

WE STARTED DEALING WITH THE HABITAT, THE OTHER PREDATORS, BEARS, LIONS, AND WE GREATLY REDUCED HUNTERS AND THAT HERD STARTED RECOVERING.

WE THOUGHT WE COULD SUPPORT FIVE.

RIGHT NOW WE'RE ONLY ONE ELK PER SQUARE MYELIN STEAD OF EIGHT.

16,000 TO 2,000, THAT'S THE STEEP DECLINE.

AND IT'S STILL GOING DOWN, 14 TO 16% A YEAR, AND WOLVES ARE THE PRIMARY FACTOR.

90% OF THE COWS ARE TAKEN BY PER EDUCATION, SO YOU LOOK AT THAT RIGHT NOW, THE ALARMING THING IS SPIKE ELK, ALL HUNTERS CAN GET BULL AND SPIKE ELK.

OUR LAST COUNT, WE HAD A COUNT IN 2006, WE HAD 385 SPIKE ELK, LAST YEAR, 24.

THAT'S ONE SPIKE ELK PER HUNDRED MILES.

THAT IS NOT RIGHT, IT'S WAY OUT OF WACK.

THERE'S SOME MAJOR ISSUES.

SO THE STEEP DECLINE HAS BEEN IN THE ELK.

>> BUT NEVERTHELESS, DO YOU EXPECT A CHALLENGE FROM TAKING -- >> THAT'S TYPICAL.

I THINK WE'VE SEEN A WHOLE PARADE OF CHALLENGES.

ANYTHING WE TRY TO PROACTIVE MANAGEMENT GET CHALLENGES.

WE'LL JUST TRY TO DO WHAT'S RIGHT FOR WILDLIFE AND MANAGE THEM IN A COMMON SENSE AND PRACTICAL WAY.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE RECENT COURT RULING WE ONED UP THE SHOW WITH.

THIS WAS A COURT RULING FROM JUDGE DONALD MALLOY, REGARDING THE WOLVES ON THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST.

HE RULED THAT BECAUSE WYOMING DID NOT HAVE AN ADEQUATE PLAN, WOLVES IN IDAHO AND MONTANA COULD NOT BE ON THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST.

AND THIS IS FROM HIS RIEWG.

HE SAYS IT ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT DOES NOT ALLOW THE SERVICE TO LIST ONLY PART OF A SPECIES AS ENDANGERED.

THE RULE DELISTING THE GRAY WOLF MUST BE SET ASIDE BECAUSE THOUGH IT MAY ABPRAGMATIC SOLUTION TO A DIFFICULT ISSUE, IT IS NOT A LEGAL ONE.

YOUR RESPONSE?

BASICALLY YOU CAN'T BREAK UP -- >> FIRST OF ALL, EVERYBODY AGREES THAT WOLVES ARE BIOLOGICALLY RECOVERED.

WE'RE FIVE TIMES -- EVERYBODY.

>> EVERYBODY WOULDN'T AGREE OR THEY WOULDN'T BE SUING.

>> WELL, JUST ABOUT EVERYBODY.

>> QUITE LARGE GROUPS AND MANY PEOPLE WHO EMAIL DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

>> WELL, ANYWAY, THEY'RE BIOLOGICALLY RECOVERED.

WE HAD A VERY ORDINARILY SEASON, I THINK IT WENT WELL.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A LEGAL TECHNICALITY HERE.

WYOMING HAS TO BE A PART OF THIS.

IF WE WOULD HAVE 5,000 WOLVES IN THE STATE, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN THEN?

SO WE HAVE AN ISSUE WITH WYOMING -- >> THE JUDGE IS NOT SAYING A LEGAL TECH AT THAT TIME -- TECHNICALITY.

HEG SAKE YOU CANNOT BREAK UP THIS AREA AND SAY WAWS THEY'RE RECOFD IN IZZAT IBRAHIM AL-DOURI AND MONTANA, BUT NOT IN WYOMING -- HE'S NOT SAYING IT'S A LEGAL TECHNICALITY.

>> I THINK IT S BIOLOGICALLY THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE SAID THAT WE DID A VERY QOOD JOB BIOLOGICALLY, THE RULE FAILED, THE SYSTEM FAILED.

THAT'S FROM THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE.

IT FAILED.

YOU LOOK AT A DISTINCT POPULATION, WE HAVE 60, 70,000 WOLVES FROM THE ARCTIC TO UTAH.

TREMENDOUS POPULATIONS.

WE HAVE A STATE THERE THAT DOES NOT WANT TO GET INVOLVED, SO WHAT'S OUR FUTURE THEN?

WHAT'S OUR FUTURE?

WHERE'S THE COMMON SENSE HERE?

>> WELL, WHAT CAN YOU DO WITH WYOMING?

>> WE'VE ENCOURAGED THEM, SOME SAY THE PATH IS THROUGH WYOMING, BUT WYOMING IS A SOVEREIGN STATE, AND THEY'VE MADE IT VERY CLEAR, THEY'RE VERY SATISFIED WHERE THEY'RE AT.

>> WE'RE TAKING A LOOK AT A MAP NOW OF DIFFERENT POPULATIONS OF WOLVES.

THERE'S THAT CLUSTER IN WYOMING THERE, AND WYOMING, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT KILLS MANY, MANY WOLVES IN WYOMING.

YOU'RE CAN SEE THERE IN -- THEY'RE IN ONE SPOT, BUT THEY'RE NOT DISPERSED THE WAY THEY ARE IN IDAHO.

ADVOCATES POINT OUT THAT CLEARLY SHOWS THAT THEY ARE NOT RECOVERED.

BECAUSE SO OF THEM ARE BEING KILLED IN THAT STATE.

AND THEREFORE, UNTIL WYOMING EITHER HAS A MANAGEMENT PLAN OR SOME OTHER ACCOMMODATION HAPPENS, WOLVES WILL STAY ON THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST IN THIS STATE.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> THAT'S THE INTERPRETATION THIS JUDGE HAS.

IT WILL BE APPEALED, BECAUSE THAT GIVES USA PRETTY BLEAK OUTLOOK AND ALSO I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE -- THERE'S ALSO A LEGISLATIVE APPROACH THAT A LOT OF CONGRESSMEN DID NOT EXPECT THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT TO BEHAVE THIS WAY WITH THE -- WITH A VERY HEALTHY SPECIES.

THERE WILL BE A LOT OF -- WHAT'S THE ISSUE?

DO WE LITIGATE?

LEGISLATE?

NEGOTIATE?

THERE WILL BE A LOT OF DISCUSSION IN ALL THREE OF THOSE AREAS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

LITIGATION, THE FISH AND GAME COMMISSION HAS SAID GO AHEAD, WE WANT TO APPEAL THIS DECISION.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> AND YOU'RE WAITING TO HEAR WHETHER EVEN THE U.S.

DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR MIGHT APPEAL.

>> RIGHT.

>> THE OTHER LEGISLATION YOU MENTIONED IS PERHAPS HAVING LEGISLATION IN CONGRESS TO AUTHORIZE A HUNT EVEN THOUGH THE ANIMALS ARE STILL LISTED.

>> OR EVEN DECLARED THEY'RE RECOVERED.

THAT THEY WOULD ACCEPT THE 2009 FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE RULE.

THE RULE IS GOOD.

THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, WE MET ALL THE CRITERIA.

WE PLAYED FAIR, WE HAVE A GOOD PLAN.

>> AND THEN THE THIRD WOULD BE AS YOU SAY, NEGOTIATE.

SIT DOWN AT THE TABLE.

>> THAT'S ONE WE'RE RELUCTANT TO DO, BECAUSE WE'VE HAD SO MANY BROKEN PROMISES.

WHEN WOLVES WERE BROUGHT IN THE STATE, WE DISCUSSED IT, AND IT WAS SAID, OBJECTION, THEY'RE BROUGHT IN -- THIS IS BEFORE MY TIME -- IF THERE'S AN ADVERSE IMPACT, YOU CAN MANAGEMENT, THAT HASN'T HAPPENED.

THEN WE SEE THE CHANGE IN THE GOAL LINE.

A HUNDRED, 150, PEOPLE ARE TALKING 2,000.

AND OUR ELK HERDS CAN'T TAKE THAT.

SO THERE'S BEEN A CHANGE IN THE PROCESS, AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE A LOT OF FRUSTRATION IS.

>> YOU SAY YOU WOULDN'T BE WILLING TO SIT DOWN AND MAYBE MIKE CLARK SAYS, HEY, WHY DON'T WE SIT DOWN AND SCALP THE NUMBERS WHERE THEY ARE NOW, HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH THE ADVOCATES, COME UP WITH A SOLUTION THAT'S IDAHO-BASED, IDAHO AND MONTANA BASED, AND MOVE FORWARD OUT OF THE COURTROOM.

>> WE HAVE BEEN SITTING DOWN, EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF SITTING DOWN AND DISCUSSION.

WE THINK WE HAVE A GOOD PLAN, THE COMMISSION SAYS WE HAVE A MANAGEMENT GOAL OF 518.

AND IT JUST KEEPS CHANGING.

THE WHOLE SCOPE OF THE THING, AND THAT'S THE FRUSTRATION.

THE GOALPOSTS ARE ALWAYS CHANGING.

>> BEFORE WE -- I HAVE A GRAPHIC TO PUT UP IN A MOMENT, BUT I'VE GOTTEN A NUMBER OF EMAILS ON THIS ISSUE, YOU MIGHT IMAGINE, AND THERE'S A TENOR FROM A LOT OF THEM THAT JUST SAYS, YOU KNOW, WHY DO YOU KEEP APPEALING THIS?

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOLVES BEING PUT BACK ON THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST?

WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO LET THEM ALONE, BASICALLY?

LET THEM BE.

>> WELL WE'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THE FRUSTRATION WITH INCREASING WOLF NUMBERS AND THE INCREASING IMPACTS ON OUR CORE ELK POPULATION.

BUT JUST AS THE WOLF POPULATION HAS CONTINUED TO INCREASE, WE SEE INCREASES IN LIVESTOCK.

AND UNTIL THIS LAST YEAR, THOSE POPULATIONS HAVE -- THOSE DEPOSIT RAH EDUCATIONS HAVE CONTINUED TO INCREASE ARE.

>> WE HAVE A GRAPHIC I BELIEVE THAT SHOWS THEM DROPPING SIGNIFICANTLY THIS YEAR.

>> THIS YEAR THROUGH THE END OF AUGUST, ALMOST 50% LOWER THAN THEY WERE IN THE PRIOR YEAR.

AND WE WOULD ATTRIBUTE THAT TO OUR MANAGEMENT AND EFFECTIVE HUNTING SEASON THAT HELPED REDUCE WOLF NUMBERS IN THOSE CONFLICT AREAS, AND THE WAY WE'VE WORKED WITH WILDLIFE SERVICE TO AGGRESSIVELY CONTROL CHRONICALLY DEPOSIT DADEING WOLF PACKS.

>> MEANING THE OLD ANIMAL DAMAGE CONTROL, THE ARM OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT DOES KILL WOLVES WHEN THEY'RE CONSIDERED TO BE A NUISANCE OR HARASSING.

SO MAYBE THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN AMELIORATE AND YOU DON'T NEED ANOTHER HUNTING SEASON IF THEY'RE DOWN THAT MUCH.

>> I DON'T THINK SO AT ALL.

WE'VE SEEN A VERY STEADY TREND OF WOLF POPULATION INCREASE THROUGH REPRODUCTION.

AND WOLF POPULATIONS HAVE INCREASED 12 TO 20% PER YEAR.

LAST YEAR WITH OUR HUNTING SEASON, WITH THE REAPPROVAL OF AN EXTRA 188 WOLVES, WE ESSENTIALLY STABILIZED THE POPULATION, SO THE END OF 2009, WE HAD ABOUT THE SAME NUMBER OF WOLVES AS WE HAD AT THE END OF 2008.

>> WHAT ABOUT -- >> IN THE ABSENCE OF A HUNTING SEASON, WE WILL SEE WOSTLES INCREASE -- WOLVES INCREASE STEADILY.

>> WHAT ABOUT THIS IDEA FROM MIKE CLARK, OK, KEEP IT AT THIS NUMBER RIGHT NOW, KEEP HUNTING SEASON, KEEP IT STABILIZED, KEEP IT OUT OF THE COURTROOM.

>> WE'VE ALREADY SUFFERED TREMENDOUS LOSSES AND IMPACTS FROM WOLVES THROUGHOUT LIVESTOCK COMMUNITY, WE SPEND AN AWFUL LOT OF MONEY AND RESOURCES CONTROLLING WOLVES THAT ARE CAUSING GREAT IMPACTS TO INDIVIDUAL PRODUCERS.

AND OUR CORE ELK POPULATIONS HAVE SUFFERED BECAUSE OF THE PRESENT NUMBER OF WOLVES.

WE WOULD LIKE TO GET IN AND MANAGE EFFECTIVELY JUST THE WAY WE'VE KEPT STRAIGHTED WE COULD MANAGE ALL OF THE OTHER WILDLIFE SPECIES.

>> LET ME PUT UP A GRAPHIC BEFORE WE GO TO THE PHONE CASSMENTS LET'S LOOK AT WHAT THE RESULTS OF THIS WOLF RULING WILL BE, SOME OF THEM, SO WE GO AND WE GO BACK TO THE PREVIOUS SITUATION, WOLVES NORTH OF I-90 HIGHWAY ARE RECLASSIFIED ENDANGERED, WOLVES SOUTH OF I-90 ARE RECLASSIFIED AS EXPERIMENTAL AND NONESSENTIAL, WHICH MEANS OTHER MEASURES CAN BE TAKEN TO CONTROL THEM, FISH AND GAME CONTINUES AS LEAD AGENCY FOR MANAGEMENT THAT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A QUESTION ON THAT ONE, BUT WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT.

THERE'S NO FORMAL HUNTING SEASON, AND WOLVES CAN BE KILLED IN SELF-DEFENSE OR THE DEFENSE OF OTHERS.

DO YOU THINK FISH AND GAME WILL CONTINUE AS THE LEAD AGENCY?

GOVERNOR OTTER HAS SENT A LETTER SETTING -- HE SAYS IT'S NOT A LINE IN THE SAND, BUT AN OCTOBER 7th INDICATE TO HEAR BACK FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR AS TO WHETHER WE CAN DEVELOP A NEW MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING, AND IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, HE SAID THAT FISH AND GAME WILL -- AT THE VERY LEAST NOT MONITOR WOLVES ANYMORE.

>> THERE'S A HIGH FRUSTRATION.

THE GOVERNOR HAS IT, I HAVE, AND THERE'S AN URGENCY.

WE HAVE 10 UNITS IN TROUBLE.

WHEN WE SURVEY, WE'RE FOUR OR FIVE YEARS BEHIND.

HUNTERS ARE ALARMED.

WE'RE IN TROUBLE.

SO WE ARE GOING TO THE FISH AND GAME SERVICE AND SAYING, WE WANT TO GET TO WORK RIGHT NOW, GET THIS DONE.

WE WANT MORE FLEXIBILITY AND TAKING THESE AREAS WHERE ELK ARE REALLY GOING DOWNHILL, AND RECOGNIZE WE'RE A USER FEE OUTFIT.

WE'RE SUPPORTED BY SPORTSMEN DOLLARS.

WE DON'T GET STATE TAX MONEY.

AND THE COMMISSION HAS SAID, HEY, WE DON'T WANT TO USE EXPERTSMEN'S DOLLARS.

IF IT'S A FEDERAL SPECIES WE NEED FEDERAL DOLLARS AND WE NEED SOME CERTAINTY WHEN WE GET INTO ENFORCEMENT, WE HAVEN'T HAD THAT, AND THE FIRST PART ON PLEX FLEXIBILITY, WE'D LIKE TO SEE A HUNTING SEASON.

WE HAD AN ORDERLY HUNTING SEASON.

WE WANT THOSE DISCUSSION, BUT THE GOVERNOR OF THE OTHER STATES, I COULD GIVE YOU THOSE LETTERS, THEY DID THE SAME THING, THEY GOT NO RESPONSE BACK FROM THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE AND THE SECRETARY.

SO WE'RE SAYING, THIS IS IMPORTANT, IT'S URGENT, WE NEED A REPLAY, LET'S GET TO WORK ON THAT ARE.

>> YOU THINK FISH AND GAME MAY JUST DROP MANAGEMENT ALL TOGETHER?

>> THE COMMISSION HOPES NOT.

BUT IF WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET ANY COOPERATION, AND WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SPORTSMEN'S DOLLARS -- >> YOU HAD HALF A MILLION DOLLARS FROM LAST YEAR'S WOLF HUNT.

>> WE DON'T HAVE THAT NOW.

WE HAD $450,000.

THAT'S GONE NOW.

WE GET IT FROM SELLING TAGS, PROVIDING RECREATIONAL -- WITHL WE DON'T HAVE A SEASON.

>> BUT YOU STILL HAVE IT FROM THE LAST SEASON.

>> WE'VE USED IT UP, PROBABLY.

WE HAD $600,000 WE GET FROM FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WE'RE TRYING TO GET THESE ELABORATE INTERACTIONS, THE SURVEYS, THE ELK COUNTS, THE COLLARING, AND WOLVES AREN'T PAYING, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT -- IT'S AN UNFUNDED MANDATE.

>> QUICK QUESTION, YOU MENTIONED 10 ZONES IN TROUBLE.

YOUR LATEST REPORT, AT LEAST ON FEMALE ELK SHOWS THAT 10 OF YOUR 29 ZONES ARE ACTUALLY ABOVE YOUR MANAGEMENT OBJECTIVE FOR FEMALE ELK, 13 ZONES ARE WITHIN YOUR MANAGEMENT OBJECTIVE, AND ONLY SIX ARE BELOW.

>> 10 UNITS OUT OF THOSE FOUR ZONES -- >> BUT STILL, THAT'S PRETTY GOOD.

23 OF YOUR 29 ZONES -- >> RECOGNIZE, WE SAMPLED FIVE.

IT TAKES A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF WORK TO PUT COLLARS AND SAMPLE.

SOME OF THOSE 10 ZONES THAT HAVE HIGHER WOLF POPULATIONS, WE DON'T KNOW, BUT WE'LL LISTEN TO HUNTERS AND GET HUNTER SURVEYS.

BUT WE DO HAVE 19 THAT HAVE MONITORED TO LOW WOLF -- MODERATE TO LOW POPULATIONS, AND THOSE ELK ARE -- WE DON'T WANT TO KEEP ON SPREADING BECAUSE IT'S SPREADING TO A LOT OF DIFFERENT AREAS.

>> THERE'S MORE TO THAT STORY.

ALTHOUGH WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO MAINTAIN ELK POPULATIONS WITHIN OBJECTIVES, IT'S COME AT GREAT COST.

WE'VE HAD TO REDUCE HUNTING OPPORTUNITY, REDUCE ANTLERLESS ELK PERMITS IN ORDER TO KEEP THOSE POPULATIONS WITHIN THE RANGE OF OBJECTIVES.

SO THERE HAS BEEN A GREAT LOSS OF HUNTING OPPORTUNITY TO KEEP THEM THERE.

>> LOSS TO THE HUNTERS, THE ECONOMY.

>> OUR PHONE CALLS ARE SCREENED, LET'S TAKE THEM.

LEVON, GO AHEAD.

>> Caller: I JUST WONDERED "IF I DID IT" THE ELK AND WOLF POPULATION WERE TO GET OUT OF CONTROL, HOW LONG WOULD IT BE UNTIL OUR DEER AND ELK POPULATION DISAPPEARED?

>> IF THE WOLF POPULATION GOT OUT OF CONTROL YOU MEAN?

>> Caller: YES.

>> HOW LONG WOULD IT THAN, AND IN YOUR AREA BEFORE DEER AND ELK MIGHT DISAPPEAR?

>> Caller: JUST IN IDAHO IN GENERAL.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> WE DON'T WANT TO SEE THAT HAPPEN, OBVIOUSLY.

WOLVES ARE DEPENDENT ON DEER AND ELK.

THEY WILL TAKE OTHER SPECIES AS WELL.

RIGHT NOW OUR RESEARCH DEMONSTRATES THAT ELK ARE TAKING IT THE HARDEST.

AT SOME POINT WHEN THEY GET DRIVEN TO LOWER DENSITIES, WE'LL START TO PRAY ON OTHER SPECIES MORE HEAVILY, INCLUDING MOOSE AND DEER.

>> WON'T -- CAN'T THE WOLVES MOVE SOME PLACE ELSE?

MOVE ON, AND THEN THE ELK CAN REBOUND, AND WE HAVE THIS IDEA OF BALANCE THAT COMES BACK INTO THE SYSTEM?

>> WE'VE CONTINUED TO SEE THE EXPANDING OF WOLVES THROUGHOUT THE STATE OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS TO THE POINT NOW WHERE MOST OF THE SUITABLE HABITAT MEANING AVAILABILITY OF PREY AND SUITABLE HABITAT HAS BEEN OCCUPIED BY WOLVES.

SO AT SOME POINT, YES, IF THE AVAILABLE FOOD SUPPLY DECLINES, THE WOLF POPULATION WILL DISPERSE FURTHER AND IT WILL DECLINE AS WELL.

BUT AT THE POINT THAT WILL HAPPEN, WE WILL BE VERY, VERY LOW AND TOTAL ELK AND DEER NUMBERS.

AND THAT'S NOT SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE.

>> AND YOU'RE ALSO GOING TO SEE MORE WOLVES GET IN TROUBLE.

WHEN I WAS ON LAST TIME, WE HAD ONLY MAYBE 10 CHRONIC PACKS, NOW OVER A THIRD OF THEM ARE GETTING IN TROUBLE.

>> EXCEPT FOR THE DEPOSIT EDUCATIONS ARE DOWN.

>> I'M SAYING MORE GET IN TROUBLE AS THEY DISPERSE.

GOING BACK, OUR DEPARTMENT'S LOST $3 MILLION IN REVENUE THE LAST TWO YEARS FROM NONRESIDENT HUNTERS NOT COMING TO IDAHO.

AND WE DID A SURVEY AND WE ASKED WHY.

WOLVES WERE THE NUMBER ONE.

IT'S AFFECTING OUR DEPARTMENT.

WE HAD A 6% INCREASE IN FISHING LICENSE, I WISH COULD I TALK ABOUT THE RECORD STEELHEAD RUNS, THE 20,000 SALMON, OUR FREE FISHING WATERS, OUR 22,000 PROJECTS -- >> YOU ARE.

>> WE MANAGE 70 HUNTED SPECIES, 500 OTHER GAME SPECIES, WITH 229 SPECIES OF CONCERN.

WE'RE MANAGING THEM, AND WE DO A GOOD JOB.

WOLVES AND GRIZZLY BEAR, WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO MANAGE.

>> LET'S TALK TO FRANK, GO AHEAD AHEAD.

>> Caller: I WAS WONDERING, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE FIRST MEETINGS I WENT TO, I PROPOSED A MAYBE SPAY AND NEUTERING THESE -- [FEEDBACK] 45 MORE, SPAY AND NEUTER THOSE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

THE IDEA OF SPAYING AND NEUTERING WOLVES.

>> THIS IS A PROPOSAL THAT COMES UP ON OCCASION.

UNFORTUNATELY IT'S LOGISTICALLY VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE SPAYING AND NEUTERING THE RIGHT WOLVES.

SO YOU'VE GOT TO GO IN, YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO CAP DHUR THEM, YOU FIND THE ALPHA MALE, THE BREEDING MALE, THE BREEDING FEMALE, SPAY AND KNEWER -- NEUTER THOUGH, LET THEM GOVERNMENT IT'S DIFFICULT TO TELL THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT ONES IN THE FIRST PLACE.

SO FOR MANAGING A WILD SPECIES IN A WILD POPULATION SETTING, IT'S JUST SIMPLY VERY, VERY IMPRACTICAL IN MOST CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> I WOULD BE REMISS IF I DIDN'T ASK YOU A QUESTION AND SEVERAL PEOPLE HAVE WRITTEN IN, ONE PERSON WRITE, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WILDLIFE SERVICES S. FORMULATING A PLAN TO KILL WOLVES, INCLUNG PUPPIES, USING POISON, TRAPS, SNARES, ETC.

IT WAS OUT FOR PUBLIC COMMENT RECENTLY.

WOULDN'T THAT DO THE TRICK IN CONTROLLING WOLF POPULATIONS THE WAY IDAHO -- THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME BELIEVES HUNTING WOULD?

>> WE HAVE BEEN IN CONSULTATION WITH USDA WILDLIFE SERVICES.

PRESENTLY THEY ARE LIMITED TO CONTROLLING WOLVES FOR DEPOSIT RAH EDUCATION ON LIVESTOCK.

IN THE FUTURE WE WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO USE WILDLIFE SERVICES TO HELP CONTROL WOLVES THAT ARE IMPACTING POPULATIONS WHERE WE -- >> YOU STILL NEED IT -- IT WOULD BE IN ADDITION TO A HUNT.

>> CORRECT.

>> THIS IS WILDLY CONTROVERSIAL, BECAUSE IT INVOLVES POTENTIAL GAFFING INSIDE THE DENS AND EVERYTHING.

AND I IMAGINE WOULD BE AUTOMATICALLY CHALLENGED.

>> IT'S WILDLIFE SERVICES, AND WE DO AUTHORIZE WHEN WE HAVE AN ISSUE AT THIS POINT, WE AUTHORIZE AND WORK WITH THE LANDOWNER -- >> FOR LIVESTOCK.

>> IT'S A NEPA, AND THEY'RE TALKING POPULATION CONTROL AND BROAD STUFF, THERE'S CONCERN, BUT WE DO HAVE POPULATION CONTROL RIGHT IN BOISE WITH DOGS AND EVERYTHING.

AND WE'LL SEE WHAT THEIR COMMENTS COME.

IT'S A FEDERAL ACTION, BUT WE DO NEED THEIR SERVICING TAK CARE OF.

>> LET'S TALK TO ED.

>> Caller: DIRECTOR, DUE TO PAST DEALS, WOULD YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE RECOMMENDING BETWEEN FIVE AND 700 WOLVES IF IDAHO ONCE AGREED, TO VERSUS THE HUNDRED TO 150 THAT THE LEGISLATURE DIRECTED IN 2002?

AND BY THE WAY, WHERE DID THAT 500-700 FIGURE COME FROM WITH SOME DETAIL, SIR?

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, ED.

THERE IS THIS DISCREPANCY BETWEEN WHAT THE FISH AND GAME COMMISSION HAS SAID IT WOULD LIKE TO SEE AND THE LEGISLATURE AUTHORIZED A MUCH LOWER NUMBER.

WE GO BACK TO THIS IDEA THAT MAYBE WE COULD CAP IT AT A CERTAIN NUMBER.

>> IT HAS LEGITIMATE CONCERN.

HOW GRIDLOCKED WE R MY ARE SAYING, LET'S GO TO THE 15 PACKS.

LET'S GO TO THE DEAL.

THAT THE DEFENDERS AND EVERYBODY AGREED TO.

BUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT 2002 STATE WOLF LEGISLATIVE PLAN, IT SAID IN THERE THAT WHEN THEY'RE CREATING UNACCEPTABLE CONFLICT, THEN THEY SHOULD BE CONTROLLED.

AND RECOGNIZE SEVERAL YEARS AGO WE DID NOT HAVE GOOD INFORMATION, BUT IN 2005, WILDLIFE SERVICES COULD NOT CONTROL THEM, SO I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE 500 CAME FROM, THAT LEVEL, BUT IT'S AN INTERIM MANAGEMENT GOAL, SOME COMMISSIONERS SAY ONE YEAR, BUT WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DEAL WITH IT, BUT I HAVE COMMISSIONERS SAYING LET'S GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL DEAL.

>> I DON'T THINK ED WANTS TO GO TO 150.

MY SENSE WAS HE WONDERED ABOUT THE 500 NUMBER.

>> 500, BUT YOU GET TO THE LOW LEVEL, IT'S EVEN -- IT'S CAPTAINED, IT'S EVEN WORSE.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE MORE AGGRESSIVE ON SOME OF THOSE ELK AREAS.

>> LET'S TALK TO BILL IN GRANGEVILLE.

GO AHEAD, PLEASE.

>> Caller: HOW HAVE YOU BEEN COUNTING THE WOLVES?

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> WE HAD SOMEBODY ELSE WHO WROTE IN AND SAID THAT THERE ARE VERY FEW COLLARS OUT THERE, SO HOW CAN YOU COUNT WOLVES WITHOUT THE RADIO COLLARS.

SO HOW ARE YOU DOING THAT?

>> WE PUT A GREAT DEAL OF EFFORT IN CAPTURING THE WOLVES ON THE GROUND THROUGH TRAPS.

WE'VE BEEN AUGMENTING OUR EFFORTS WITH CAPTURE FROM HELICOPTERS IN THE WINTER TIME, AND WHAT OUR OBJECTIVE IS IS TO DO OUT AND GET ONE OR TWO RADIO COLLARS ON MOST OF THE PACKS SO THAT WE CAN USE RADIO TELEMETRY TO LOCATE THE WOLVES, AND IN THE WINTER, WHEN THEY'RE VISIBLE ON THE SNOW, WE COUNT THE NUMBER OF WOLVES IN THE PACK ARE.

>> HAVE YOU LOST A LOT OF ONES WITH COLLARS?

>> YES.

COLLARS ARE COMING IN AND OUT OF THE SYSTEM ALL THE TIME.

IT'S ONE OF OUR KEYS FOR IDENTIFYING ILLEGAL KILLING AS WELL AS TRACKING THE ANIMALS TO THEIR DENS SO WE CAN DOCUMENT REPRODUCTION AND ASSESS NUMBERS STATEWIDE.

>> WE'RE UNFORTUNATELY RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

FOR THOSE OF YOU ON THE LINE, STAY ON THE LINE, WE'LL TAKE YOUR CALLS AFTER.

THIS I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS DIRECTOR THAT ARE KIND OF RELATED TO EACH OTHER.

I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO RESPOND TO THEM AS WE CLOSE.

ONE PERSON SAYS, CAN YOU TELL THE VIEWERS IF THERE'S A POSITIVE SIDE TO WOLF RECOVERY?

ALL WE HEAR IS ABOUT KILLING THEM DOWN TO 150, AND AGAIN, ANOTHER PERSON WRITE, I'M STILL WAITING FOR CAL GROEN TO SAY ANYTHING POSITIVE ABOUT WOLVES, EXCEPT THAT THEY MUST BE MANAGED, AND THE PERSON PUTS IN.

[SEE, "KILLED."

IS THERE A POSITIVE SIDE IN YOUR MIND TO WOLF RECOVERY AND WOLVES?

>> THERE IS A POSITIVE SIDE.

IT'S BEEN A SUCCESS STORY.

WE ACHIEVED THE RECOVERY GOALS.

WE DID IT.

WE COULD HAVE DECLARED VICTORY.

BUT THE GOALPOSTS KEEP GOING ON AND ON -- >> WHAT'S THE POSITIVE SIDE IN YOUR MIND?

WHAT DOES IT DO FOR THE ECOSYSTEM?

IT.

>> PUTS ANOTHER PREDATOR OUT THERE, ANOTHER -- LIKE WE MANAGE BEARS AND LIONS, WE HAVE GRIZZLY BEARS IN THE STATE, IT WAS ANOTHER SPECIES.

BUT WE MANAGE THOSE SPECIES.

WE HAVE NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO MANAGE WOLF SPECIES.

WHY?

THAT'S THE QUESTION.

>> ARE YOU GLAD WE HAVE WOLVES IN IDAHO?

>> I WAS, BUT I'M NOT SURE ANYMORE.

IF WE CAN'T MANAGE THEM.

IT'S AFFECTING OUR ELK, AND OUR HUNTERS, AND OUR ECONOMIES.

THE DEAL HASN'T BEEN FOLLOWED THROUGH.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH ESA.

IF PEOPLE DON'T FOLLOW WITH THEIR COMMITMENTS, WHY WOULD -- YOU NEED WILLING PARTNERS FOR ESA TO WORK.

AND WHEN PEOPLE KEEP SCREAMING IT OUT IN COURT, MAKING TONS OF MONEY OFF IT THROUGH CAMPAIGNS, THAT'S AN ISSUE, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING.

WE HAVE NOT LIVED UP TO THE ORIGINAL DEAL.

>> WELL, WE WILL CONTINUE COVERING THIS STORY AS WE HAVE FOR OVER 15 YEARS WITH OTHER POINTS OF VIEW AS WELL.

IN THE FUTURE AT THE TABLE, AND I APPRECIATE TONIGHT YOU TALKING ABOUT THE STATE'S RESPONSE TO THIS LAWSUIT AND FOR THOSE OF YOU ON THE PHONE, STAY ON THE PHONE, THE TWO INDIVIDUALS HERE HAVE KINDLY AGREED TO TAKE YOUR PHONE CALLS AFTER THE SHOW AND WE'LL PUT THAT ON OUR WEBSITE.

I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN, THANKS FOR TUNING IN TO THIS EDITION OF "DIALOGUE."

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