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They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WGTE public media.

In Minneapolis, a single shocking video has become the focus of a nationwide debate.

Federal immigration officers shot and killed 37 year old Rene Nicole Goode during an enforcement operation, an encounter captured on multiple cellphones and law enforcement cameras.

But what has ignited such intense controversy is not merely what happened, but how differently Americans are seeing the very same footage.

We're not here to reexamine the incident itself.

Investigations will take their course.

What we are here to explore is the moment we find ourselves in as a country.

One event, one video.

Many conflicting interpretations.

How do we make sense of a public square when the same images evoke outrage, justification, disbelief, or fear, depending on who's watching?

And what does it mean when our shared reality no longer feels quite so shared?

Joining us today for this discussion is clinical counselor Katelyn Smith.

I'm Doni Miller, and welcome to the point.

Connect with us on our social media pages.

Or you may email me at Doni underscore Miller at WGTE Dot Org for this episode and other additional extras.

Go to wgte.org.

To the point, it is my pleasure today to have, Clinical Counselor Katelyn Smith with us as we discuss probably one of the most distressing, pieces of video that we've seen in this country in a really long time.

I'm telling you about the incident that occurred in Minneapolis, Minnesota, not so long ago where a 37 year old woman was killed, as a result of her encounter with an Ice agent.

But you know what?

The concern or what seemed to be a mystery to me after seeing that video time and time again, were the different perceptions that people who not only saw the video, but people who were in the crowd had when looking at the exact same video.

Time after time after time.

And I'm so glad to have you with us today, because what I'd like to talk about is how that happens.

That, that difference of perception underlies so many challenges that we face not only as a country but in our judicial system, in our personal lives.

And quick overview.

Why do we have those differences and perceptions?

Well, thank you, Doni.

I'm excited and glad to be here.

And I think what causes us to have a lot of our different perceptions is our experiences in life are whether it be our gender, our socioeconomic status.

You know, how we were raised, the communities were from that all plays a role in to our different perceptions of things and our different ways that we view things and how we experience them to be true.

And so I think that a lot of times, you know, has to do with how we need to educate ourselves and how we need to have a more broad, open mind that there are people with different perspectives.

And even sitting here, you and I live different lives with different perspectives.

And I think that that has fueled a lot of, you know, some of the, the disagreements and whatnot that we've had and the concerns we've had with these videos is that there are so many different, different experiences out there.

So do you think, Caitlin, that people are ever really, truly watching and seeing what's in front of them, or are they seeing things through the lens of their own lives?

I think that we see everything through the lens of our own lives.

I think it's hard to just see it through what is truly happening, because we always have some of that, some of that unwilling bias that is just going to be there.

That is just part of who we are and our experiences.

And it's just, something that once you are more aware of it, you can address it.

But I think we're always looking at something through our experiences and through the lens of how we see the world.

That's really interesting to me.

It's it's really interesting.

And it's a lot scary, quite frankly, because we have so many systems that are based upon the value of eyewitness, eyewitness identification, our legal system, for example, is it possible then, from your point of view, for two people with differing worldviews to ever agree on anything?

I definitely think it's possible.

I think the more that we are open to different perspectives and open to different worldviews and experiences, we can agree on things.

I think that we still could receive them and experience them in a little different manner for each person, but I definitely think we can agree on them and we can find that common ground.

When you have something that that's fairly broadly based, like the way politics, interjects itself into our lives, how do you think political, perceptive perceptions help shape what people see?

Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, believing that one is you know, it can be one that is right and one that is wrong and kind of seeing it through that black and white perspective, if you will, instead of seeing it more in that gray area and that each person is going to have their own thing that they bring to the table.

And I think that it can it can be very polarizing with people for sure, when especially with the country being so divided into you're either this or you're that, it can it can be hard for people to admit to and see that gray area of people.

Yeah, I, I mean, that's a really interesting point that you make, because once we recognize that perhaps our bias is getting in the way, is it possible to grab that bias and shake it up a little bit and change the way we change that bias to remove that bias?

Absolutely.

Yes.

I think that's a huge thing when people finally are realize like are able to realize that they have that bias.

Were then able to educate and we're able to move past it, and we are able to then see a broader worldview than just what is within our little square that we're used to.

And I imagine that issues like trauma are extraordinarily influential.

Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I mean with, with trauma, it can very it can make that box even more narrow than without trauma.

And you know, it's it's funny that you bring up trauma because in the mental health world and addiction world, where I come from, like a lot of our perspectives are individualized.

And a lot of times, when people someone struggling with a mental health crisis or maybe an addiction crisis, depending on what their perspective is on that person one, one of us may see somebody who is struggling and in need of help.

Another may see somebody who, you know, why don't they just quit?

Why doesn't it just why don't they just act differently?

And so I think once we can look at those biases as well, you know, it kind of all flows into the same thing where we all just need to be here to help each other.

How do we begin to challenge ourselves around those biases there, when not when I, when you take a situation like the one that that we talked about in Minneapolis, there were, perceptions that the car was moving toward the officer looking at the same video.

People were saying, no, she was going in the other direction.

Completely polar opposite points of view.

About the same 32nd video, how do we begin to challenge ourselves?

I think it's being open to having those conversations with other people with differing views than ourselves.

I think it is pushing yourself out of that comfort zone and being open and willing to hear what other people have to say.

It's pretty scary process in and of itself.

Absolutely, absolutely it is.

It's hard to get out of our comfort zone.

Yeah.

And and what if you don't know that you're biased?

I mean, what if you is is it possible for you to begin to change your point of view because someone else brings it to you?

Or are your biases so entrenched that you can't move away from them?

I think that there's always a possibility for you to start to make those changes, even if somebody brings them to you.

I think as long as you are open to what they have to say, and it is presented in a way that is going to make sense for you, I think anybody can start to make any change.

I don't think that there is much in this world that is so concrete that we can never move by it.

I the reason what you're saying is so important seem to me, and I'm sure many other people is, as we look at where we are, in this country today, many of us are saying, how do we how do we heal the divide?

How do we hear each other?

How do we fix the situation that many perceive us to be in right now?

And your suggestion is that first we have to begin with ourselves.

We have to take a look at our own biases.

Yes we do, we do.

What's step one in that?

I think step one is just being willing to admit that we all have them, you know?

Yeah, you did say that.

It's that we all have them, whether or not, you know, we believe that they are bias.

You know, we we all have them.

And it's not something that is good or bad.

It's just something that is something that has developed from, you know, our upbringing, the people we surround ourselves with, how we experience our lives.

So we all just have them and it's okay.

When you were raised in with a set of perceptions, it's pretty hard to challenge yourself when everyone around you has the same set of perceptions that you have.

Stepping outside of that can be hard to do.

What's the value in doing that?

Why isn't it easy for me to say for?

It's easiest for me to say when I'm watching a video like that.

This is what I saw.

I am supporting this good in this situation and she was moving away from the officer or I'm supporting the officer.

He was doing his work because I have been raised with with a belief that officers are always doing the best work they can.

So how how do you begin to step away from that environment that helps you develop those biases?

Yeah, I think there has to be a willingness in yourself to be willing to start to step away and educate.

It's going to be uncomfortable, and it's going to be a little scary at times.

But I think that having that desire and that willingness to teach and grow and to better yourself is one of the first steps you have to take.

You have to be willing to step out of that comfort zone, out of that box that I mentioned, to be able to start to see what is on the other side of those bias.

And that doesn't always mean you're going to agree with it.

But I think at least, you know, being willing and open to educate yourself is the first place to start.

Yeah.

Hold that thought.

I'd like to come back to that.

When we come back, we're going to take a break right now.

All right.

We are going to go away for just a moment, but we'll be right back.

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To the point we are talking to Katelyn Smith today, a clinical counselor, about perceptions and how those perceptions perceptions are built.

The conversation actually springs from the enormous differences in what people who were at the Minnesota shooting, saw when they looked at the tape or when they were there, and they saw the young woman shot by, the Ice agent there.

And and we started thinking a group of us and started talking about where those perceptions actually come from and can they be changed and what's going to happen to this country if we don't learn to get by those perceptions?

And you've you've told us, today that it has an awful lot to do with bias.

And it and it has trauma affects those things as well.

Do other things influence those perceptions?

Like like adrenaline, the adrenaline that you're feeling at the moment or the emotion that you're feeling at the moment?

Absolutely.

Adrenaline and emotion are going to play a big role in what you are experiencing in that moment.

Past experiences are going to come into play.

Things that you have been conditioned to know as good or bad, are going to come into play.

So it's going to be a whole kind of, you know, perfect storm of things that are going to play into your perception and how you're experiencing that.

Yes.

Okay.

What are we as a country, becoming more skeptical?

Do you think maybe, maybe, maybe.

And I feel like a lot of times we are more divided in more than just politically.

You know, we are very separate in a lot of in a lot of ways we're more connected than ever.

But we're also more separate than ever.

And so it's easy, you know, whims of perceptions and beliefs.

Yes, yes.

And it can be, you know, hard to to find yourself around people to really challenge you.

When we are able to cultivate these specific niches of who we're going to be around and people of special interests and whatnot, whether that be in person, online.

And so in order to challenge those perceptions and your beliefs and your biases.

It is a challenge.

It is something that you have to work towards and you have to be.

It has to be something you want.

So from your perspective, what role, does media have in this, in social media having this and you've we've got all these influxes of, of energy that are helping, you know, that we're all absorbing all day long.

And the challenge to change things is to step away from that.

Right?

How do we how do we step away from the influence of TV and, and social media?

And again, I think has to go back to that intentionality.

You have to make that intentional step away from it.

You have to finally put down the phone and say, okay, enough.

Like I'm going to actually go and talk to a real person instead of just looking at these videos that nowadays could be I, you know, whatever they may be, videos of and people's responses and reactions to things, you know, they're there's we're missing that human connection of actual face to face conversation.

And I think that's where we need to start is that intentionality of putting the phone down and going to have a conversation.

Yeah, I would even propose that, television and social media have become so politicized and segregated in their own points of view that exposure to those things make it far more difficult than not.

Absolutely.

To change a bias and and actually influence perception.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

Especially when you're getting that constant stream of information.

It's hard.

Yes, absolutely.

Do you think there's, I know that that you are proposing ownership of our own, roles in this process.

Like, we have to own that.

We're biased and we have to be intentional about doing something about it.

But do you think in a world that's as divided as we are right now, assuming that you think that we are it right now, do you think, in this current situation that we find ourselves in that, that things will change?

I always stay hopeful.

And I think that at the end of the day, people want there to be good.

People want there to be connection.

People want to have a common ground.

And I think that a lot of times, even if we don't get to a place where we 100% agree with the next person, I think that we can come together in understanding and respect for that other person.

We don't have to always agree.

We don't always have to like what they have to say.

But we can learn to respect each other.

Absolutely.

And I think entering into conversations with people, understanding that their point of view may be different than yours and that you actually are able to to learn from somebody else's point of view, or you may choose not to be right.

Just being civilized and understanding that there's a different point of view.

You know, one of the things that I have always been curious about is why, when someone doesn't exactly see something on a video again, take the video in, of the Minneapolis incident that they fill in what they think should have been there.

And almost always it comes from their perception, right.

And their fear.

And again, is, is that just because of the way we've been saturated, the environment that we've been saturated within?

Yeah.

And we are we as people like to be able to categorize things and make sense of things.

And so we look to fill in all of the missing pieces so that we can make sense of what is happening in front of us, in the way that we know best.

And so, you know, filling in those little pieces here and there, the video is just going to help us better understand and better conceptualize and make make it more comfortable and more digestible, if you will.

Yeah.

You know, if it then that causes you to ask the question, like, do we really want the truth when we look at these sorts of things, or do we really want what feels comfortable to.

Right, right.

Yeah.

And I think that that goes back to that personal challenge of do you want to to just experience what's comfortable or do you want to experience the truth, as you said?

And I think the only person that can answer that is each individual, because some people are going to be more comfortable with just what is within them, within that comfort zone for them.

And other people are going to want to be able to push themselves for that truth, even if it is uncomfortable and a little, a little unsettling at times.

Yeah, and exposure to circumstances or different environments, as you've mentioned before, is extremely important.

And one of the, one of the issues that always arises when we're talking about police encounters with the public are whether those how those police are viewed, how that law and law enforcement, folks are viewed.

It's some actions are it's sometimes they're viewed as aggressive before they get to, the environment that they're going to or the location that they're going to, and sometimes they're not.

Sometimes it all depends on what the experience that those folks have had with.

Yeah, I think so.

Like there are going to be some individuals, unfortunately, who have had more negative experiences with law enforcement.

And so they are going to right off the jump, you know, think that this is a negative interaction.

This is something that's going to be bad.

This is something to fear.

And other people have not had that experience.

And I think that that, you know, can also play a role in how that video was perceived in Minneapolis.

Because each person is going to view that Ice officer in a different way.

And I'm not here to argue whether or not it was good or bad.

It's just the perception of it that each person's going to have.

So if you had the task, and I'm not giving you any time to think about this, but if you had the task of beginning to heal, the situation in Minneapolis, for example, around, the.

Rene.

Good.

The Rene good shooting or any place where we have social unrest that's fueled by misunderstanding at this point.

What would you say to the to the mayor of Minneapolis to help him begin to break that shift?

Yeah.

Oh, gosh.

I think that the mayor should start with a conversation and making it a safe place for all views to be heard and all views to be seen, and building that momentum that is that respect that, you know, fostering that environment where we don't always have to agree, but we can at least listen and we can respect each other.

And I think having that open forum for people can make it a little less scary to view those things.

And also it gives people that exposure to other views.

It allows people to learn from each other, and it allows for that conversation to start, so that there may be perspectives that people have not ever thought of before, that they may find make more sense.

Absolutely.

And I agree with that, frankly.

In addition, I understand the anger and I understand the despair.

That that these sorts of circumstances are bathed in, that there's no good way to see what happened to to this young woman.

There's nothing good that you can take away from that.

But I also think and and tell me if you disagree or you agree that approaching it with anger only fuels the misperceptions sometimes that people have.

Yes.

This situation.

No I agree.

Do I agree?

Yes.

I think that anger and resentment and whatever that feeling may be, that we're going in with a negative mindset is just going to fuel even more of those misconceptions, even more of the argument, even more of the disconnect and pull us further away from each other rather than coming to a common ground.

So calmer heads.

Always.

Yes, yes.

Always.

Always.

Yeah, yeah.

Is there a way for people who may have thought, and again, we're not here to adjudicate what happened in Minneapolis, but is there a way, to honor her life and still think that what she did was inappropriate?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I think it's something where we don't have to always agree with people's actions, but we can still honor and respect the fact that life was lost and that this was somebody who was standing up for what they believed in and what was, you know, in their mind, the right thing to do.

And whether you know or not we agree with it is not the point.

It's the point that it was a life that was lost, that was lost.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

It's a huge conversation and I appreciate your taking a part in just this little bit of it.

Hope to see you again soon and I hope to see you again soon.

Thank you for joining us today.

Have a wonderful day.

Announcer 1: The views and opinions expressed in to the point are those of the host of the program and its guests.

They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WGTE public media.

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