CHARLES AFRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

>> THIS WEEK ON TO TO THE CONTRARY, FIRST PROTECTING YOUR DIGITAL PRIVACY.

AND JOE BIDEN'S WOMAN PROBLEM.

WHAT THE LATEST POLLS SHOW.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES, WHAT IS MARRIAGE FUNDAMENTALISM AND HOW IT IMPACTS NON-TRADITIONAL FAMILIES AND AMERICAN SOCIETY.

>> HELLO, I'M BONNIE ERBAY.

WELCOME TO DO THE CONTRARY, A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES UP FIRST, IS THE INTERNET SAFE FOR WOMEN?

THE INTERNET IS ALTERNATIVELY REFERRED TO AS THE WILD WEST, RI FE WITH STALKERS, INSANE PEOPLE ACTING OUT, AND OTHERS HARVESTING PRIVATE INFORMATION TO MAKE IT PUBLIC.

ACCORDING TO THE NEW YORK TIMES, SEVERAL STUDIES HAVE FOUND THAT WOMEN ARE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT PRIVACY RISKS ONLINE THAN MEN.

WOMEN ALSO EXPERIENCE THE INTERNET DIFFERENTLY ACCORDING TO A PEW STUDY FINDING THAT WOMEN ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO BE SEXUALLY HARASSED ONLINE AND DESCRIBE THESE INTERACTIONS AS EXTREMELY UPSETTING.

THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REPORTS SOME 75% OF THE VICTIMS OF STALKING AND CYBER STALKING ARE WOMEN.

SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES HAVE BECOME INCREASINGLY AGGRESSIVE AT HARVESTING PERSONAL INFORMATION, THEN GETTING HACKED SO IT ENDS UP IN THE HANDS OF PEOPLE USING IT TO COMMIT CYBER CRIMES.

THAT INCLUDES HACKING WOMEN'S IDENTITY.

WITH CONGRESS CONSIDERING NEW PRIVACY REGULATIONS, WOMEN'S CONCERNS SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.

CALIFORNIA HAS A NEW CYBER PRIVACY LAW BUT SOME SAY IT DOESN'T GO FAR ENOUGH FOR WOMEN.

IN THE EVENT OF A DATA BREECH, IT GIVES CONSUMERS THE RIGHT TO SUE IF CERTAIN KINDS OF INFORMATION, SUCH AS SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS OR DRIVER'S LICENSE NUMBERS, ARE COMPROMISED SOME BELIEVE ELECTORRING MORE WOMEN TO CONGRESS WILL MAKE FEDERAL PRIVACY LAWS MORE PROTECTIVE.

SO DEBRA CARNAHAN, IS THE ANSWER TO CYBER SECURITY ELECTING MORE WOMEN TO CONGRESS IF HAD >> IT'S ONE OF THE ANSWERS, BONNIE.

THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO GET STARTED HERE.

>> NOW, NOT UNLESS THEY'RE GOING TO BE PUSHING FOR LAWS LIKE THE EU'S PRIVACY LAWS, WHICH ARE REALLY FLAWED AND DON'T NECESSARILY HELP WOMEN ANY MORE THAN THAT.

>> WELL, I THINK THEY NEED TO ELECT LEGISLATORS WHO ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND TECHNOLOGY AND THE IMPACT OF TECHNOLOGY ON PRIVACY.

>> AND DOES THAT INCLUDE A LOT OF WOMEN?

>> IT INCLUDES WOMEN, BUT IT'S NOT EXCLUSIVE TO WOMEN.

>> I WANT MORE WOMEN IN OFFICE AND I'M NOT SURE THAT THIS PROBLEM IS GOING TO BE SOLVED NECESSARILY JUST BECAUSE OF SOMEONE'S GENDER.

>> ALL RIGHT.

LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR COMMENT, THE EU.

YOU'RE OPPOSED TO THE EU'S LAW, WHICH GOES MUCH FARTHER THAN WHAT THE U.S. CONGRESS WOULD DO.

WHY ARE YOU OPPOSED?

THE ONLY >> IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE BEST IN THE WORLD.

>> THE STRING END, NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST, WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW IT'S REALLY STRENGTHS ENDED, BIG TECH COMPANIES LIKE GOOGLE, APPLE, WHO REALLY LOCKED OUT COMPETITION AND ARE ABLE, TO YOU KNOW, AFFORD THE COMPLIANCE COST WITH THE REGULATIONS.

>> SO THEY PAY THE FINES?

>> THEY'RE ABLE TO PAY THE FINES THEY'RE ABLE TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE IN COMPLIANCE WITH WHAT THE LAW BECAME.

IT DIDN'T NECESSARILY INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF TRUST THAT PEOPLE HAVE, SO IN ONLINE COMPANIES ANYMORE OR WITH WHAT THEY DO WITH THEIR DATA, AND IT ALSO LOCKED OUT A LOT OF COMPETITION IN SMALLER WEBSITES FROM NEWS AGENCIES TO SHOPPING SITES OF PEOPLE, WHO YOU KNOW, WHO LIVE OVERSEAS WERE USED TO HE GO ZOO.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES THAT I DON'T THINK REALLY MAKE USING THE EU MODEL, YOU KNOW, WORTHWHILE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> LOOK, I COME OUT OF THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT COMMUNITY WHICH -- AND PROGRAMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY HAVE LONG COUNSELED WOMEN ON SCRUBBING THEIR SOCIAL MEDIA REGISTRATION AND OTHER ASPECTS OF THEIR PRIVACY.

SOME PLACES THAT'S WRITTEN INTO LAW AND A LOT OF PLACES IT'S VERY FLAWED AND LEAVES WOMEN VERY VULNERABLE, AND SO I THINK WE ACTUALLY DO NEED TO SET SOME STANDARDS BY WHICH PEOPLE WHO NEED PROTECTION CAN GET THE PROTECTION THAT THEY NEED AND THE PRIVACY THEY NEED.

>> AND PROSECUTION OF ABUSE OFFICERS >> ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

AND IN FACT, SO MANY WOMEN ARE SUBJECT TO CYBER STALKING THAT THEN BECOMES REAL STALKING THAT THEN BECOMES VIOLENCE.

AND SO I THINK IT'S INCREDIBLY NECESSARY AND I KNOW THE ADVOCACY COMMUNITY HAS LONG SUPPORTED INCREASED PROTECTIONS FOR WOMEN WHO'VE ALREADY DEMONSTRATED THAT THEY'RE VULNERABLE.

>> I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS GOING TO SAY.

IT'S A GOOD START WITH WOMEN IN CONGRESS, BUT WE NEED MORE WOMEN JUDGES.

WE NEED TO HAVE MORE MILL PROSECUTORS AND ALSO TRAINING FOR OUR POLICE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT WOMEN IN HIGH TECH WHO CAN SORT THROUGH THESE PROBLEMS?

>> RIGHT.

EXACTLY.

BECAUSE THEY'RE RIGHT THERE AT THE TABLE.

>> AND I THINK THERE'S SOME INSTANCES, FOR INSTANCE, I READ ONE STORY ABOUT A WOMAN WHO WAS USING A RIDE-SHARING APP, GOT INTO THE CAR AND SAW HER NAME WAS DISPLAYED, AND THEN ANOTHER PASSENGER WAS ABLE TO FIND OUT WHO SHE WAS.

SO THOSE ARE SOME INSTANCES -- >> AND THE WOMAN WHO GOT INTO A NON, YOU KNOW, THE NON-LYFT CAR AND WAS MURDERED.

I BELIEVE IT WAS LYFT.

RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

>> AND I THINK -- SO THERE ARE INSTANCES CERTAINLY WHERE WE NEED GOVERNMENT AND WE NEED INDUSTRY TO BE BETTER STEWARTS AND TO CLAMP DOWN.

I THINK IT'S ALSO, THOUGH, A REMINDER OF WHAT PRIVACY IS, AND WE'VE SORT OF GOTTEN TO THIS "BRAVE NEW WORLD" WHERE WE SHARE EVERYTHING AND WE'VE FORGOTTEN THAT SOMETIMES THERE'S THINGS THAT IT'S GOOD TO KEEP TO OURSELVES.

THERE IS A TIME, YOU'LL REMEMBER , WHERE SORT OF EXPOSING YOUR WHOLE WORLD TO THE PUBLIC WAS ACTUALLY A PUNISHMENT.

I THINK SORT OF THE SCARLET LETTER.

WE DON'T WANT TO NECESSARILY SHARE OUR MOST INTIMATE MOMENTS WITH THE WHOLE WORLD, AND WE HAVE GOTTEN TO A WORLD WHERE WE'RE SORT OF COMFORTABLE DOING THAT AND WE FORGET HOW VULNERABLE THAT CAN MAKE US.

THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS WE CAN BE DOING.

>> IN A SENSE, THOUGH, IS IT TOO LATE?

IS THE GENIE OUT OF THE BOUGHT?

>> WELL, YEAH.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CERTAINLY RESPONSIBILITY IN SOME WAYS AND WHAT WE'RE WILLING TO TRADE FOR 10% OFF OUR FIRST PURCHASE OR GIVING AWAY OUR TELEPHONE NUMBER JUST SO THAT WE CAN GET AN EXCLUSIVE ON A NEW CELINE PURSE THAT'S COMING OUT 50% OFF.

SO I MEAN, WE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBLE AS CONSUMERS AND SAY , OKAY, WHAT I'M TWILLING TO GIVE UP?

WHO HAS WHAT I HAVE?

HOW CAN I GET IT BACK IS THIS AND THEN MOVING FORWARD, THERE'S PROBABLY A LITTLE BIT OF AN EDUCATIONAL COMPONENT HERE WHEN WE THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE WE SHOULD BE DOING FINANCIAL LITERACY IN K THROUGH 12, WE SHOULD ALSO BE TEACHING OUR CHILDREN, UNDER, THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE GIVING UP.

YOU'RE GOING TO DOWNLOAD THIS APP SO YOU CAN TALK TO YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT THIS AND THAT.

THAT'S A MISSING ELEMENT.

>> THE KIDS, BEFORE THE BRAIN IS FULLY DEVELOPED, AS TEENAGERS, PROTEINS, THEY DO ALL KINDS OF STUFF THAT IF IT'S STILL ONLINE WHEN THEY'RE LOOKING FOR WORK OR TRYING TO GET INTO COLLEGE, IT'S NOT GOING TO SERVE THEM WELL.

WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH.

I REALLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THE EDUCATIONAL EXPONENT.

I HATE TO ALWAYS PUT MORE THINGS AND MORE THINGS ON SCHOOLS AND ON TEACHERS, BUT I THINK THIS IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.

THIS COULD JUST RUIN PEOPLE'S LIVES FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER.

AND THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND.

I MEAN, EVEN AS AN ADULT, I DON'T UNDERSTAND ALL OF IT AND WHAT'S OUT THERE, WHAT PEOPLE CAN CAN DO WITH MY INFORMATION.

I DON'T THINK ANY OF US REALLY HAVE -- >> SOMEONE SUGGESTED TO ME AND I'VE BEEN DOING IT, QUITE HONESTLY, WHEN THESE STUPID COMPANIES ASK YOU FOR YOUR BIRTHDAY AND I GIVE THEM THE WRONG BIRTHDAY.

I GIVE THEM THE WRONG CELL PHONE NUMBER.

AND I GIVE THEM THE WRONG SOCIAL SECURITY.

LET THEM HAVE IT.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, A LOT OF PEOPLE DO THAT, AND IT'S ABOUT TRYING TO BALANCE THE CONVENIENCE OF THE TECHNOLOGY WITH THE PROTECTION OF YOUR PRIVACY AND I THINK THAT'S A TOUGH BALANCE TO LIKE?

A WORLD THAT IS INCREASING LAYING RELIANT ON THE TECHNOLOGY >> YEAH.

AND INCREASINGLY COMPANIES ARE GRUB I ABOUT STEALING IT FROM YOU.

>> AND USING IT.

>> LET US KNOW WHAT YOU -- OR WORSE, GETTING HACKED.

LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @BONNIEERBAY, FROM ONLINE PRIVACY AND HAIR ASMENTS TO JOE BIDEN'S WOMAN PROBLEM.

>> SEVERAL WOMEN'S ALLEGATIONS THAT FORMER VICE PRESIDENT AND UNITED STATES SENATOR JOE BIDEN TOUCHED THEM, EVEN KISSING THEIR FOREHEADS, MAKING THEM FEEL UN COMFORTABLE AND NERVOUS, DON'T APPEAR TO BE HURTING HIS STANDING AMONG DEMOCRATIC VOTERS PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE CHOOSING BIDE EVERYONE AS FIRST FOR THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS YET TO ANNOUNCE, HAS BASICALLY STAYED THE SAME IN MORNING CONSULTED'S WEEKLY TRACKING POLL.

AFTER WEEK-LONG CONSTANT COVERAGE OF THE ACCUMULATIONS * SAID, BIDEN STILL LEADS THE DEMOCRATIC FIELD.

ACCORDING TO THE SURVEY, SOME 32% OF DEMOCRATS FAVOR BIDEN AMONG THE 2020 DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES.

THAT IS ESSENTIALLY UNCHANGED FROM 33% A WEEK EARLIER.

THE MORNING CONSULT POLL SHOWS BIDEN STILL ENJOYS THE SUPPORT OF 33% OF WOMEN VOTERS AND 39% OF BLACK VOTERS, BUT HIS SUPPORTERS SKEW OLDER AND MORE MODERATE.

>> SO DONNA EDWARDS, DOES THAT MEAN JOE BIDEN GOT OFF, TO USE A CLICHE, SCOT FREE AND SHOULD HE HAVE?

>> I MEAN GOT OFF FROM WHAT?

I DO THE HAIR SALON TEST.

IN MY HAIR SALON THE WOMEN WERE SAYING IT DOESN'T BOTHER ME.

AND THESE ARE WOMEN WHO ARE VOTERS.

AND LOOK, AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN PECKED ON THE FOREHEAD BY JOE BIDEN, I THINK THAT WOMEN ARE ABLE TO MAKE -- WOMEN AND MEN ARE ABLE TO MAKE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THAT AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES GRABBING WOMEN WHERE HE SHOULDN'T.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU SEE HERE.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, MY QUESTION IS , IS JOE BIDEN GOING TO BE ABLE TO MOUNT A CAMPAIGN AND CAMPAIGN IN THE WAY THAT ENDS RESPECT THE BOUNDARIES THAT ARE THE NEW LINES THAT HE BELIEVES HAVE BEEN DRAWN FOR HIM?

AND I BELIEVE ARE APPROPRIATE.

>> IS IT JUST A MATTER OF AGE?

CAN YOU BLAME THAT?

OR IS THIS SOMETHING HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN?

OBVIOUSLY IT DOESN'T AMOUNT TO SEXUAL ASSAULT.

IT DOESN'T AMOUNT TO ANY OF THAT STUFF.

IT JUST AMOUNTS TO REALLY BAD TASTE AND, QUITE FRANKLY, STUPIDITY ON SOME LEVEL, BECAUSE YOU DON'T DO THAT TO PEOPLE.

>> RIGHT.

I THINK THIS IS SORT OF JUST COMMON COURTESY.

RIGHT?

BUT IT'S PERHAPS -- I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT THIS IS A MOMENT WHERE WE'RE ALL SAYING, OKAY, MAYBE WE'VE TAKEN SOME OF THIS TOO FAR.

LET'S NOT GO TO EXTREMES.

BUT I ALSO SUSPECT THAT, YOU KNOW, JOE BIDEN IS A REALLY AFFABLE GUY.

S LOTS OF DEMOCRATS LIKE HIM.

REPUBLICANS LIKE HIM.

OTHER THAN SOME IDEAS ABOUT AMTRAK, I THINK HE'S NOT THE WORST POLITICIAN WE HAVE OUT THERE, AND I THINK PEOPLE WANT TO LIKE HIM.

RIGHT?

AND SO HE DOESN'T SEEM AS BAD.

AND I THINK THAT IF THAT WERE A REPUBLICAN, HE MIGHT NOT COME OUT TOTALLY UNSCATHED IN THE SAME WAY, BECAUSE LOOKING AT WENT QUINNIPIAC, CHANGE RESEARCH , THE CONSUL POLL, HE'S AHEAD OF BERNIE SANDERS, KAMALA HARRIS.

THERE'S A LOT TO BE SAID FOR BEING A NICE GUY THAT PEOPLE LIKE.

>> FULL DISCLOSURE, I'VE BEEN HUGGED AND KISSED A LOT BY HIM, AND YOU KNOW, I WAS NEVER OFFENDED.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN SOMEBODY ELSE MIGHT NOT BE THAT DOESN'T HAVE THAT RELATIONSHIP.

>> SO THESE WOMEN YOU THINK WERE PICKING NITS?

>> I THINK IT IS A LITTLE BIT NITPICKY GOING ON.

AND ALSO, FULL DISCLOSURE, MY MOTHER-IN-LAW, WHO IS A SENATOR WITH JOE BIDEN, ACTUALLY TWEETED OUT A TWEET LAST WEEK PICKED UP BY THE "WASHINGTON POST" AND NEW YORK TIMES AND I WAS REALLY WORRIED SHE WAS GOING TO GET SOME BAD BLOW BACK ON THAT, AND IT WAS NOT.

THE SUPPORT THAT CAME IN, WHAT SHE SAID WAS, YOU KNOW, I APPRECIATED IT WHEN I WENT TO THE SENATE IN A HARD TIME LOSING MY HUSBAND AND MY SON.

HE HAD DONE THE SAME.

AND HE GAVE ME THE HUMAN TOUCH AND I APPRECIATED THAT HUMAN TOUCH.

AND SHE DESCRIBES IT AS HUMAN.

AND I THINK IT IS THE HUMAN TOUCH.

HOWEVER, HAVING SAID THAT, NOW THAT HE HAS SEEN THIS AND HEARD FROM THESE WOMEN AND KIND OF HAD A CHANCE TO REFLECT, I THINK HE NEEDS TO DRAW SOME PERSONAL BOUNDARIES FOR THOSE WOMEN THAT HE IS AROUND AND RESPECT THOSE, BECAUSE IT IS A DIFFERENT TIME.

>> I'VE HEARD THAT ANDREW CUOMO, NEW YORK GOVERNOR, WHO IS THINKING ABOUT RUNNING AND WHO MAY JUMP IN AT SOME POINT, HE WILL NOT HAVE A MEETING IN HIS OFFICE KIND OF LIKE PENCE, UNFORTUNATELY, WITH A WOMAN WITHOUT SOMEBODY ELSE THERE.

HE WANTS NO, YOU KNOW -- HE'S NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING AND HE WANTS PROOF OF THAT.

>> THAT IS RIDICULOUS.

AND WHAT IT DOES IS IT REALLY UNDERMINES WOMEN IN OUR CAPACITY >> I AGREE.

>> AND OUR EQUALITY.

AND I DON'T THINK IT'S GREAT FOR MIKE PENCE AND I DON'T THINK IT'S GREAT FOR ANDREW CUOMO.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, THIS IS AN UN INTENDED CONSEQUENCE OF THE ME TOO MOVEMENT.

I THINK IT'S BEEN POWERFUL THAT VICTIMS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COME FORWARD, BUT THIS IS ALSO WHAT HAS HAPPENED WHEN MEN DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE HAVING YOUNGER WOMEN AROUND THEM X IT SHOULDN'T BE THE CASE, BUT THAT'S WHERE WE'RE AT.

I WILL SAY WITH JOE BIDEN, THOUGH, I THINK IT'S VERY INTERESTING THAT HE WAS SUCH A CAMPUS ASSAULT, SEXUAL ASSAULT CHAMPION IN TERMS OF PRESIDENT OBAMA'S REGULATIONS AND NOW HE'S WANT OKAY TO TAKE AWAY DUE PROCESS AND THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE ON THE PART OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF SOMETHING, BUT IN THIS SITUATION , HE WANTS EVERYBODY TO BE UNDERSTANDING TOWARDS HIM.

SO I KIND OF SAW A LITTLE BIT.

[TALKING AT THE SAME TIME] >> MOST OF IT WAS ON THE PODIUM IN FRONT OF THOUSANDS.

>> MY FIRST EXPOSURE TO JOE BIDEN WAS WORKING WITH HIM IN 1994 TO PASS THE VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN ACT, WHICH THEN LED TO THE CAMPUS SEXUAL ASSAULT ACT.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT HE HAS, YOU KNOW, SERIOUS GRAVITAS AS A LEGISLATOR AND VOTERS WANTS TO GET TO THAT DISCUSSION CAN THEY'RE NOT TAKING THIS SERIOUSLY.

>> I WANT YOU TO -- WE HAVE A TINY BIT OF TIME LEFT.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MORNING CONSULT POLL FOR WHITE GUYS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST OF DEMOCRATIC CONTENDERS, AND YET WE HAVE ALL OF THESE WOMEN, WOMEN OF COLOR, KAMALA HARRIS WAS MENTIONED AND THE SENATOR FROM NEW YORK AND ELIZABETH WARREN, WHY ARE THE DEMOCRATIC VOTERS -- I MEAN, IS THIS A YEAR WHEN THEY'RE GOING TO NEED TO NOMINATE A WHITE MAN BECAUSE TO GET INDEPENDENCE?

BECAUSE MAYBE, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE PUBLIC AFTER OBAMA ARE WARY OF PEOPLE OF COLOR?

WARY OF WOMEN AS PRESIDENT?

>> PERHAPS IT'S JUST -- >> I DON'T KNOW.

I LOOK AT THIS FIELD AND I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED, FRANK BELY, WITH THE MEDIA, BECAUSE THEY HAVE ELEVATED SOME OF THESE CANDIDATES BECAUSE THEY THINK IT'S A PERSONALITY CONTEST, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLICY PROPOSALS THAT ELIZABETH WARREN HAS PUT OUT, THAT KIRSTEN GILL AN BRAND, KAMALA HARRIS, AMY GLOBE AN SHARE, THESE ARE SERIOUS PROPOSALS AND THEY HAVEN'T BEEN COVERED.

>> AND THEY'RE NOT GETTING AS MUCH PUBLICITY AS THE FORMER MAYOR OF SOUTH BEND, INDIANA.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES, MARRIAGE FUNDAMENTALISM.

ACCORDING TO THE THINK TANK FAMILY STORY, THE PHRASE MEANS PLACING VALUE ON THE TRADITIONAL MARRIED 2-PARENT FAMILY WITH KIDS AS THE BEST MODEL OF FAMILY FOR AMERICAN SOCIETY.

BUT THE ORGANIZATION'S NEW REPORT CHALLENGES THIS NOTION AND CALLS FOR FAMILY JUSTICE AND EQUITY FOR ALL FAMILIES AND NOT JUST THE TRADITIONAL MODEL.

>> IT'S BOTH CAUSED A LOT OF HARM IN WAYS THAT WE'RE NOT ALWAYS IMMEDIATELY AWARE OF, AND I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY BASED ON WHEN YOU KIND OF GET DOWN INTO IT, SOME RELATIVELY RACIST, SEXIST, CLASSIST NEGOTIATIONS ABOUT FAMILY.

>> NICOLE RODGERS FUNDED FAMILY STORY, A THINK THANK JUST RELEASED A NEW REPORT CALLED THE GASOGENES MARRIAGE FUNDAMENTISM, SAYING THE SUPERIORITY OF THE TWO PARENT FAMILY IS A MYTH PROMOTEDLY CONSERVATIVE INSTITUTIONS.

NAOMI SAVER, WHO WORKS FOR THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, SAYS IT'S NOT A MYTH.

>> WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF STUDSIES THAT LOOK AT THE EFFECTS FOR CHILDREN LIVING EITHER WITH A SINGLE PARENT OR LIVING WITH A COHABITING COUPLE.

AND OFTEN THE EFFECTS ARE DETRIMENTAL TO CHILDREN'S DEVELOPMENT.

>> RODGERS SAYS THE RESEARCH IS NOT NEARLY THAT CONCLUSIVE.

>> THIS SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS ABOUT WHETHER CHILDREN DO BEST WITH TWO MARRIED PARENTS IS NOT NEARLY AS STRONG AS PEOPLE THINK WE ALL KNOW INTUITIVELY THAT HAVING, YOU KNOW, THE MORE ADULT S THAT CARE ABOUT AND CAN SUPPORT EMOTIONALLY FINANCIALLY EVERY WAY A CHILD, THE BETTER.

THAT'S ALL GOOD FOR CHILDREN.

>> RODGERS SAYS FAMILIES COME IN ALL SHAPES AND SIZES NOW.

USING THE TRADITIONAL MODEL NO LONGER MAKES SENSE FROM A PUBLIC POLICY PERSPECTIVE.

ONE EXAMPLE, SHE SAYS, IS FEDERAL MARRIAGE PROMOTION PROGRAMS LIKE THE HEALTHY MARRIAGE INITIATIVE STARTED UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, AS WELL AS SIMILAR PROGRAMS THAT FOLLOWED IT, DESPITE MORE THAN A BILLION DOLLARS SPENT, THOSE PROGRAMS HAVE NOT INCREASED MARRIAGE RATES.

>> IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT'S NOT BECAUSE LOW INCOME PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO RELATIONSHIPS, AS WELL AS THE REST OF US, WHICH IS THIS VERY INSULTING NOTION BEHIND A LOT OF MARRIAGE PROMOTION AND ALL OF THAT.

WHEN YOU'RE STRUGGLING FINANCIALLY, WHEN SYSTEMS ARE BASICALLY BUILD TO, LIKE, NOT LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD FOR YOU, MARRIAGE IS ACCESSES FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

>> PERCENTAGE OF MARRIED AMERICANS HAD HELD STEADY AT 80% UNTIL 1950.

DURING THE LAST 70 YEARS, IT HAS STEADILY DECLINED TO 48%, CREATING AN UNMARRIED MAJORITY.

>> IT HAS COMPLETELY BECOME A MARK OF PRIVILEGE IN THE PAST DECADE OR SO.

IT IS JUST THE CASE THAT IF YOU ARE LESS EDUCATED AND LOWER INCOME, YOU'RE LESS LIKELY TO BE MARRIED.

YOU HAVE THE UPPER CLASSES OF SOCIETY HAVE CONTINUED TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE CONTINUED TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE ALL OF THE BENEFITS OF MARRIAGE TO THEIR CHILDREN.

THAT'S STABILITY, THAT ECONOMIC LEVEL OF SECURITY, AND MEANWHILE , YOU HAVE THE LOWER HALF OF SOCIETY HAS BEEN TAUGHT FOR SOME REASON THAT MARRIAGE IS NOT IMPORTANT AND AS A RESULT, THEY'RE NOT GETTING TO REAP THE SAME BENEFITS THAT UPPER CLASS AMERICA IS REAPING.

>> SCHAEFFER AND RODGERS AGREE, MARRIAGE AND PRIVILEGE ARE LINKED, BUT RODGERS SAYS THE PROBLEM IS OUR PUBLIC POLICIES REMAIN STUCK IN THE 1950S.

THEY SUPPORT FAMILIES WITH A MALE BREADWINNER AND A DEPENDENT WIFE AND CHILDREN.

>> HOW DO WE SUPPORT PEOPLE GIVEN THAT THEY'RE NOT GETTING MARRIED TO THE SAME DEGREE THEY USED TO?

GIVEN THEY'RE HAVING CHILDREN WITHOUT BEING MARRIED?

GIVEN THEY'RE GETTING MARRIED LATER IN LIFE, IF THEY GET MARRIED AT ALL?

>> RODGERS STRESSES THE REPORT IS NOT ANTI-MARRIAGE, BUT SAYS WE NEED TO ACCEPT THAT MARRIAGE IS NOT THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEMS OF POVERTY AND INEQUALITY.

SHE SAYS IT'S JUST IMPORTANT TO REDEFINE FAMILY AND CREATE SYSTEMS THAT KEEP UP WITH THE CHANGES IN SOCIETY.

FAMILY STORY SAYS IT'S SEEKING FAMILY JUSTICE AND EQUALITY FOR ALL FAMILIES.

>> FOR INSTANCE, WHEN IT COMES TO SOMETHING LIKE PAID FAMILY LEAVE, WHY IS IT THAT IF I'M MARRIED AND, YOU KNOW, RAISING A CHIMED AND MY HUSBAND GETS SICK THAT I CAN TAKE PAID LEAVE TO CARE FOR HIM, BUT IF I'M RAISING A CHILD AND I LIVE WITH MY AUNT AND SHE'S RAISING A CHILD WITH ME AND WE ARE A FAMILY, WE LIVE IN THIS HIGHWAYS, WE SUPPORT EACH OTHER, SHE GETS SICK, I CAN'T TAKE PAID LEAVE FOR HER.

WHO DOES THAT BENEFIT?

IT LEAVES A TON OF PEOPLE OUT.

IT DOESN'T REFLECT WHAT FAMILIES LOOK LIKE.

AND I THINK IT JUST HARMS ALL OF US.

>> SO SHOULD NON-TRADITIONAL FAMILY MEMBERS BE ALLOWED TO GET ANY KIND OF FEDERAL BENEFITS?

SHOULD THEY BE ABLE, BEYOND JUST BEING ABLE TO SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, OKAY, IF I'M DYING, YOU DECIDE WHETHER I GET MORE TREATMENT OR NOT.

THAT SEEMS AN OBVIOUS ONE.

BUT LET'S TALK FOR THE MOMENT ABOUT WHERE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT KICKS IN MONEY.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE YOU'RE NOT MARRIED TO OR WHO AREN'T PART OF WHAT'S CONSIDERED THE TRADITIONAL CORE MARRIAGE SHOULD BE GETTING THOSE BENEFITS >> I MEAN, I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A GRAY AREA.

ACTUALLY, I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THIS ISSUE, BECAUSE CERTAINLY I KNOW LOTS OF FAMILIES WHO DON'T LOOK JUST LIKE MINE, AND I THINK THAT THEY'RE GOOD, LOVING FAMILIES.

I THINK THAT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT MARRIAGE, I'M MORE IN LINE WITH NAOMI SCHAEFFER RILEY.

I THINK WE LOOK AT IT FROM A MACRO PERSPECTIVE.

OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME WE'VE SEEN THIS IS A SUCCESSFUL INSTITUTION THAT PROVIDES STABILITY AND HOPEFULLY HAPPINESS FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S THE ONLY OPTION OUT THERE OR THAT ONLY STRUCTURE.

I THINK WHERE I TAKE SOME ISSUE WITH NICOLE IS THAT I ACTUALLY DON'T THINK THAT ALL OF OUR PUBLIC POLICIES ARE MARRIAGE- FOCUSED.

IN FACT, I THINK THAT A LOT OF OUR POLICIES ARE AT ODDS WITH MARRIAGE.

TAKE THE MASS INCARCERATION WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING COMMUNITIES AND DESTROYING THAT ABILITY TO HAVE SUCCESSFUL FAMILIES.

SO I DO THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT THAT WE CAN DO, BUT I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TO THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER, SO TO SPEAK.

>> GO AHEAD.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, I THINK THAT MOST OF OUR POLICIES ARE GEARED TOWARDS MARRIED COUPLES, AND I THINK A LOT OF OUR LAWS HAVE BEEN GEARED TOWARDS MARRIED COUPLES.

AND IF YOU LOOK BACK WHEN BIRTH CONTROL WAS FIRST CHANGED BARK IN 1963, GRISWOLD VERSUS CONNECTICUT T USED TO BE THAT THE WOMAN HAD DOING TO HER HUSBAND TO GET PERMISSION AND THE DOCTOR WOULD GO THERE.

CAN I DID I HAVE YOUR WIFE BIRTH CONTROL?

BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT HAS AN INTEREST IN COUPLES STAYING MARRIED.

SO THAT PERMEATES OUR ENTIRE SYSTEM, NOT JUST THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, BUT JUDICIARY BRAN: >> I DON'T FEEL GOVERNMENT PROPAGANDA, ANYTHING TEENAGERS HEAR FROM A FEDERAL PROGRAM THEY'RE NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO.

ALL THAT MONEY THEY GAVE TO CHURCHES, THEY SHOULD HAVE GIVEN IT TO CARDI-B AND ASKED HER TO GO OUT.

GIVE HER A BILLION DOLLARS AND ASK HER TO TELL KIDS TO PLEASE GET MARRIED BEFORE THEY EVER CHILDREN.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A LOT MORE EFFECTIVE.

>> RIGHT.

YEAH.

BUT I DO THINK THAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE THE STICK, THEN, THAT SAYS GET MARRIED, GET MARRIED, AND FOLLOW THIS WAY?

>> WELL, NO >> OR SHOULD WE ADDRESS THE NEEDS OF THE TRENDS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN OUR SOCIETIES IN >> I THINK TRYING TO ADDRESS THOSE NEEDS FOR QUITE A LONG TIME.

LET'S ACTUALLY GET TO THE ROOT.

PROBLEM.

ILL MEAN, I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE COMMUNITIES OF COLOR WHERE WHEN YOU LOOK AT ASIAN FAMILIES, THEY TEND TO FOLLOW THIS SUCCESS SERIES OF GETTING MARRIED, GETTING EDUCATED, GETTING MARRIED AND HAVING CHILDREN.

AND THEY CONTINUE TO BUILD MASS WEALTH AND PROPERTY.

>> THAT'S ALSO, IN SOME WAYS, NOT ACTUALLY TRUE.

THERE'S A LOT OF ASIAN POVERTY AS WELL IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> THERE IS, BUT WHEN YOU COMPARE THEIR EXPERIENCE TO THE BLACK EXPERIENCE, I THINK YOU SEE DIFFERENCES.

AND EVEN WITHIN THE BLACK COMMUNITY, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BLACK IMMIGRANT FAMILIES VERSUS BLACK, THOSE WHOSE ANCESTORS ARE IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO I'M WITH SABRINA HERE.

I SAY WE DON'T THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER.

AND THERE ARE SOME GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, POLICIES THAT ACTUALLY DON'T SUPPORT MARRIAGE.

LIKE WHEN WE LOOK AT OUR WELFARE PROGRAMS.

AND I THINK THERE'S A REALLY INTERESTING CORRELATION BETWEEN WHEN WE SEE THE DECLINE IN MARRIAGE VERSUS AN INCREASE IN WELFARE PROGRAMS.

AND I THINK THAT WASN'T ADDRESSED BY MISS NICOLE.

>> I THINK I'M THE ONLY UN MARRIED PERSON AT THE TABLE.

AND PROUD TO BE PART OF THAT MAJORITY.

AND I THINK THAT OUR PUBLIC POLICY HE NEEDS TO BEGIN TO REFLECT THAT WHEN IT COMES TO CHILD REARING, TO CARE TAKING AND CAREGIVING, THAT OUR POLICIES ARE STUCK IN THE 1950S AND 2019 AND THE 2000S REQUIRE SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO REFLECT THE WAY OUR FAMILIES REALLY EXPERIENCE THEIR EVERYDAY LIVES AND THEIR WORK LIVES.

MORE WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE, MORE UNMARRIED WOMEN WHO ARE PARTICIPATING IN THE ECONOMY, AND OUR PUBLIC POLICY DOESN'T EMBRACE THEM AT ALL.

>> WELL, I WOULD CERTAINLY AGREE WITH YOU THERE.

AND MANY TIMES ON THE SHOW I THINK I'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I THINK WE WANT TO HAVE LESS GOVERNMENT AND MORE INDIVIDUAL CONTROL OVER SOME OF THESE RESOURCES SO THAT IF YOU ARE A SINGLE MOM, FOR INSTANCE, YOU CAN HAVE CONTROL OVER YOUR PAID LEAVE RESOURCES OR IF YOU ARE A GAY COUPLE WITH A CHILD AND DON'T FIT THIS GOVERNMENT RUN MOLD THAT YOU CAN STILL HAVE FLEXIBILITY AND OPPORTUNITIES.

>> ALL RIGHT.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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