there are lots of interwoven issues with today's Topic in a long long history we can't get into everything today so we're talking specifically about the federal government's plans for new transmission line to Los Alamos that would cross an area that's important to people of many cultures many communities as well as to Wildlife and ecosystems today we've got Santa Fe county commissioner Anna Hansen and historian Hilario Romero thank you and welcome thank you so Ario I'd like to start with you very briefly we're talking specifically about this transmission line what harm will this transmission line cause to this area well first of all they have to cut a road so anytime you move you know you move Earth and you move Earth in a big way because you're going to have to get heavy equipment out there it's going to change the environment and uh and that is a wildlife corridor and so what's that going to do that's going to disturb the wildlife that are used to entering into the cahas delos real um another thing that that happens um is that you have all this noise all this um uh all these workers going in and uh and uh it's a construction project that's what it is what and then we don't know about high tension lines we know we know that there is some problem with high tension lines and the environment it's been studied for the last 30 years so that's another issue um just the fact that you start building roads that means people can get in and I don't care how much you restrict them it still happens um not only that it's like oh maybe we can build something in the future like maybe another lab teritory you know or another special building you know for weapons you know development um there's so many things but those are a few yeah thank you commissioner your District covers this proposed product area why are you and your constituents against it well for some of the many reasons that Hilario mentioned but the fact that it is a wildlife Corridor um it's also uh an area because of the roads that have been carved into the cahas is that uh we have wild cat shooting out there and this is something that my constituents are very concerned about because we have built Trails um along the El Camino Real um so people are afraid to ride on the trails now or walk because people are shooting at them right and it's really dangerous and uh my constituents care about the environment Wildlife I am a longtime environmentalist and I believe that's how I got elected and so they expect me to stand up for them and that's part of the reason why I've worked so hard to build relationships with um the federal Partners um the forest service in order to do this the forest service is going to need to have to change their Amendment to the fourth plan so there's a lot of um issues that my constituents care about they care deeply about the forest but the environment is so pristine and beautiful out there it really needs to be preserved and um I think that an electrical power line um can be used on existing lines that we already have and there needs to be like renewable energy there's many ways that um I believe lanel can get the power that they need right without going across the cah yeah so over the past couple of years thousands of New Mexicans have been involved in the public comment process there have been public meetings as part of the NEPA process and as I understand it the overwhelming majority have voiced opposition to this project yet it's going ahead Hilario have the people's voice voices been heard or is this typical of how the federal government handles this is typical of how the federal government does things um I've been to so many meetings in the last 40 years and I've uh said my peace and uh it just has no effect it's it's just a way for them to say well we did get the community in we did listen to their their you know to to their protest you know against against this line you see the thing is is that to me um we have a gang of agencies federal agencies they don't live here they don't live here most of them don't live here very few of them live here or if they lived here they lived here a very short time they don't understand the history the culture hardly anything about about what's happened here uh they don't understand our relationship to the B either no matter how much you tell them and um and so I I call it a gang because they all kind of uh endorse each other you know they're in cooperation or they're in coordination with each other and you see it's a list of agencies all very powerful agencies the only one that's not shown in here in this letter is the atomic energy commission but I believe me they're behind it right under you know and the behind the scenes pushing and pushing because somehow they think that that's going to make us safe for the future right and I don't believe that I don't think that's making us safe for the future especially the way the political scene uh nationally and internationally is going uh we're in danger we're we're creating more danger for ourselves the other thing is that those uh lines they uh if if the lab is truly what they call themselves in their propaganda a worldclass institution how come they haven't figured out how to bring electricity without even having power lines if they were if they're smart enough to to build you know weapons of mass destruction I I I think they're capable of being able to get Alternative Energy in there to take care of that and not have to build any lines and they've never done that because they don't focus on and back in the 90s we pushed them uh we pushed them towards that it was called the role of the National Labs in the 20th century we had a conference they didn't listen that either it was just uh it's just an exercise yeah you you bring up a good point so um in New Mexico among the state agencies and certainly among the the Biden Administration there's a lot of talk about renewable energy and climate change is this transmission line going to be bringing renewable energy to the lab or is this more fossil fuels so this power line is for the so-call supercomputer there are two super supercomputers in the United States Los Alamos is one of them and part of the problem is is they want to also do Pit production which is the core of nuclear weapons and they need to they need energy for this supercomputer they really can't do both with the energy they have and so they need additional energy um you know I have met with under secretary uh Jill Ruby in Washington DC I invited her to the first town hall um that she did with me and and they they talk like they understand and are listening but then when it comes to this finding of no significant impact when it's clear that there is a impact you know that uh and that we really all of us want an e an environmental impact statement because that is what NEPA the national uh pollution action i' National Environmental Policy we all talk in uh in alphabet soup so um is is so important but if we can have um uh Eis you know environmental impact statement done then it will show the damage that this is really causing and finding of no significant impact when 23,000 people wrote letters in opposition to this um plus I know you'll be interviewing uh former Governor Mitchell and tsuki peblo and the many of the other pblos are really opposed to this uh transmission line and I have had the honor been able to work with them for years on many different issues and they are also concerned about this shooting that's happening out on the kaha because it's their sacred land yeah so Hilario as a historian I know that you have studied um Los Alamos the energy depart like you are a scholar of all of these issues and I know it's too much to pack into the time we have but what is sort of the the long-term relationship between the lab and between traditional communities who lived in those Landscapes before they were taken over by the lab um are you listened to do you have input well you you start with the indigenous people who who were living on lasos Rios they didn't call it that they had their own names for it and I'm talking about the surrounding PLS of Tua s Leons Santa clada um and Coach they were all initially impacted in a great in a great way um not a great way a bad way um by first of all um uh the federal government uh taking pieces of their land and uh and uh and you and plotting down the lab in the first place uh on their sacred lands that that's the first and foremost thing and and from there uh the Spanish who arrived you know uh it wasn't a great relationship at first it was war and and uh and it was not good but uh little by little um there was a coales coalesence where there was a mixing of peoples I'm one of them I'm Native American as well as as as uh Spanish and Mexican um and that mixture you know um really shows today that those people who who live in lasas Del Los Rios within the area you know they're they're indiv the Muslim are farmers and ranchers uh they they utilize some of the resources of Las cahas delos Rios and U and they've been there for centuries at least you know 500 years and U and and then the impact of of those that went to the open lands I don't know how the federal government opened some lands part of it was on Forest land and so the forest um Forest uh uh National Forest came in and and basically took the land grants the kah Del R land grant that's what they call that on on one side which is the L mahada Mesa and then the other uh land grant um which is the lamaha l Grant and then of course all these smaller L grants within lasena and laia and all of that is part you know what we're talking about and and all they want to do is live in a clean area with clean air and and everything and and uh here we have a lab that really has the opposite idea of of of what to do there you know which is build nuclear weapons great so we talked a little bit about the public process um which is you know the federal agencies have to do this under the National Environmental Policy Act um people participate but then their voices their comments their analysis aren't Incorporated should people still participate in public processes like these um absolutely I mean our voices Contin must continue to be heard and you know that is why as an elected official I continue to meet and work with you know doe Environmental Management on cleanup because cleanup of Los Alamos is one of the foundational issues that me must be uh dealt with and so they want to continue to expand but they don't want to clean up their mess and they must clean up their mess and we have made progress It's slow but we have a new consent order um that the governor just released a few weeks ago uh on cleanup and so that's happened because of people's participation because they continue to stand up and say no this is not acceptable and because they elect leaders like myself who care about this issue and understand it I have worked on this issue for the past 40 50 years since I first came here uh so I'm well aware and educated so I can speak the language and I can communicate with them and um I think it's been of benefit to my constituents to have that kind of relationship I am very truthful with them I have told them continually that nobody wants this power line and you know there are projects like reconductoring that um Senator uh Heinrich is supporting that can happen but I know but they're not quite there that they haven't developed it far enough for this reconductoring to be happening but then at the same time they need to find other sources of power which I believe they can and I think we as the constituents need to continue to push and continue to voice our concerns because if we don't they'll really roll over us right yeah so I know you're a historian but um and we're talking about sort of the all the the problems but I would love to hear your vision for the that region if we weren't so focused as a society on weapons of mass destruction um increased electrical needs like what could that be what could that world be well right now it's it's not any of those things um you know we still have contaminated workers uh you know uh in 10 different Cent cers you know I call them centers they call them Labs where where they have uh poison and contaminated that they'll admit to 137,000 workers but really that's that's just a the tip of the iceberg uh the future is more contaminated workers so my vision is less contaminated workers and how do you do that you don't do that by giving them a badge and they walk into a contaminated area and it goes off so that you can say you've been contaminated that's not that's not preventative uh that OSHA requirements get followed you know so that the workers the future workers um because they're going to do the project anyway the plutonium pits project is going to happen so so how about doing it in a different manner um because for 82 years you've been contaminating workers and not only with uh radio nucleid but with every other kind of chemical you can think of that harms human beings um so more protections for the workers and I mean a lot of protections um and she's um our commissioner already mentioned you know um cleanup that's another thing um in terms of of future I I you know they need to be doing more work that solves human problems you know that's that's to me The Human Condition is more important than anything I mean that's why we're all alive here on this planet you know and the only thing that can really destroy us as b m minst Fuller said I don't know over 50 years ago you know that you know we're in trouble not Mother Earth you know and she can shake us off like a bunch of fleas that's how powerful she is and she's been here for billions of years okay so every single site in the United States and probably around the world is contaminated wherever there has been any nuclear weapons work and it is I think really imperative upon lanel doe Environmental Management in Ana to be responsible also to clean up their mess and I also sit on Buckman direct diversion board which is our water system which is situated unfortunately Below lanel on the Rio Grand and you know making sure that my constituents have clean water is one of the most important things to me and there is contamination and plutonium in the Rio Grand and we've known that for the last 40 years you know it's not new it's just there's more of it and we really need along along with safer protections for all the workers we need our land cleaned up you know it's um it's just respectful yeah to clean up your mess when you make a mess absolutely we could talk about this issue for another hour but thank you so much for walking us through the process for sharing your perspective and your studies I really appreciate it thank you thank thank you thank you okay