DOES AMERICA HAVE A MINISTRY OF TRUTH?

WHAT'S BEHIND THE SPIKE IN GUN VIOLENCE?

AND PRESIDENT BIDEN UNDER PRESSURE TO CANCEL STUDENT DEBT.

STAY TUNED, IVORY TOWER IS NEXT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M DAVID CHANTRY, FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

I'M JOINED THIS WEEK BY KRISTI ANDERSEN FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, ANIRBAN ACHARYA FROM LEMOYNE COLLEGE, CHAD SPARBER FROM COLGATE UNIVERSITY AND BEN BAUGHMAN FROM CAZENOVIA COLLEGE.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN TAKING SOME HEAT FOR ESTABLISHING WHAT IT'S CALLING A DISINFORMATION GOVERNANCE BOARD IN THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS THE D-G-B IS SIMPLY AN ADVISORY BOARD.

ITS FOCUS IS TO COORDINATE RESPONSES TO POTENTIAL DISINFORMATION THREATS, INCLUDING FOREIGN INTERFERENCE IN ELECTIONS AND HUMAN TRAFFICKING.

CRITICS HAVE A DIFFERENT TAKE, DUBBING THE BOARD THE MINISTRY OF TRUTH.

DISINFORMATION, ESPECIALLY ON SOCIAL MEDIA, IS CLEARLY A PROBLEM, BUT IS THIS A ROLE FOR GOVERNMENT?

DO WE NEED A DISINFORMATION GOVERNANCE BOARD?

>> I'M NOT SURE WE NEED ONE NAMED THAT.

>> THE D.G.B.

SOUNDS A LITTLE LIKE THE K.G.B.

>> HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY WENT TOO FAR WITH THE NAME AND I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT THE INITIAL PUSHBACK WAS FROM MEMBERS OF CONGRESS LIKE LAUREN AND MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN WHO MIGHT REASONABLY FEAR A MISINFORMATION BOARD BECAUSE THEY'RE SPREADING MISINFORMATION AND LIES BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS BOARD IS WANTING TO DO.

WHAT APPARENTLY THEIR GOAL IS, IS TO DEAL WITH THE MISINFORMATION, DISINFORMATION, LIES THAT ARE DISSEMINATED BY, HOMELAND SECURITY SAYS, FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS, OTHER ADVERSARIES, TERRORIST GROUPS, WHOEVER IT MIGHT BE, HAVING SOME IMPACT ON FOREIGN POLICY.

SO I THINK THE NAME WAS A BIG ISSUE.

I THINK THAT WAS NOT A GOOD IDEA.

AND I THINK IF THEY HAD NAMED IT SOMETHING LIKE DISINFORMATION CLEARING HOUSE OR SOMETHING MUCH MORE NEUTRAL, THAT GAVE THE SENSE THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE MONITORING THESE THINGS, AND TALKING ABOUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM.

>> BUT DOES GOVERNMENT HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY IN SORT OF POLICING SOME OF THIS INFORMATION, CHAD?

>> IN SOME RESPECTS, I THINK SO.

I MEAN LET'S START WITH THE PREMISE, RIGHT?

DO WE HAVE A DISINFORMATION PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES?

I THINK THAT WE DO.

IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE RESEARCH BY EDWARD LUCAS WHO TALKS ABOUT HOW CHINA AND RUSSIA ARE USING DISINFORMATION AND SHARP POWER TO UNDERMINE U.S. DEMOCRACY, THAT'S SCARY STUFF.

BUT IT HAS TO BE KIND OF MUCH MORE BIPARTISAN OR NON-PARTISAN KIND OF A MODEL.

AND WE HAVE MODELS LIKE THAT.

THINGS LIKE THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE.

THEY'RE EXPERTS AND PEOPLE RESPECT THEM AND SO FORTH.

AND SO WE GOT TO GO DOWN THAT ROUTE.

AND TO THAT EFFECT, YOU KNOW, I THINK YOU COULD DO THINGS LIKE WHY NOT HAVE AN EIGHT-MEMBER EXECUTIVE BOARD WHERE FOUR PEOPLE FROM EACH PARTY ARE APPOINTED ONE TERM IN THEIR CAREER SO INCENTIVES ARE FOR REPUTATION, YOU KNOW, PRESERVATION OPPOSED TO POLITICAL FAVORS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT DOWN THE ROAD.

WE COULD ALSO DO THINGS LIKE SUPPORT THE FOURTH ESTATE MORE.

MAYBE GRANTS FOR INDEPENDENT MEDIA TYPES AND JOURNALISTS, INCREASE SECURITY AND PROTECTION FOR JOURNALISTS AT HOME OR AT WORK OR ABROAD.

THAT SORT OF THING.

BUT IT HAS TO BE BIPARTISAN, NON-PARTISAN.

OTHERWISE IT'S JUST THE THOUGHT POLICE.

>> THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE IS A GOOD MODEL AND THAT HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL FOR 30, 40 YEARS.

>> THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION.

>> I AGREE WITH THE BRANDING ISSUE HERE, WHICH IS A PROBLEM.

THEY COULD JUST SIMPLY MAKE IT THE DISINFORMATION ADVISORY BOARD.

ONE THING WE ARE MISSING HERE IS AN ADVISORY BOARD.

WHAT IT IS TRYING TO DO IS THAT WHEN OTHER AGENCIES WITHIN THE HOMELAND SECURITY FACE MISINFORMATION, LET'S SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, FEMA DURING SANDY HOOK AND DRINKING WATER ISSUES, OR BORDER SECURITY WHERE CARTEL MEMBERS MISLEAD HUMAN TRAFFICKERS MISLEAD MIGRANTS ABOUT THE U.S. BORDER, ALL THIS GOVERNANCE BOARD IS TRYING TO DO IS CREATE AN ADVISORY ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEY TELL THESE AGENCIES HOW TO KIND OF INTERACT OR HOW TO COUNTERACT THESE KINDS OF MISINFORMATION.

I WILL SAY THIS AS A SCHOLAR OF U.S. FOREIGN POLICY THAT SINCE THERE HAS BEEN A TIME TESTED HISTORY OF U.S. MEDDLING IN ALL KINDS OF ELECTIONS AND FOREIGN POLICY AROUND THE WORLD, I GUESS THE CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST, RIGHT IN I DON'T KNOW.

SO IT'S KIND OF FUNNY TO SEE THE U.S. NOW GETTING WORRIED ABOUT WHAT IT HAS DONE AROUND THE WORLD FOREVER, RIGHT?

>> SO BEN, YOU ARE SAYING THE CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST, YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT TAKE?

>> I THINK A FEW POINTS.

THEY HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR OVER 10 YEARS NOW, AS FAR AS OR DEALING WITH MISINFORMATION.

SO THE FACT THAT THEY'VE GOT A NEW NAME FOR A BOARD THAT'S ON THERE IS REALLY GETTING BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION.

TO CHAD'S POINT, THEY HAVE PUT FORWARD DOING A BIPARTISAN HOMELAND SECURITY ADMINISTRATION COUNCIL THAT IS GOING TO BE OVERLOOKING THIS.

IN ADDITION TO QUARTERLY REPORTS TO CONGRESS OF WHAT THEY EVERYBODY UP.

THIS ISN'T ANYTHING NEW FOR HOMELAND SECURITY.

THEY HAVE BEEN PROTECTING OUR BORDERS THROUGH MISINFORMATION, PARTICULARLY FROM RUSSIA.

>> SO WE DO HAVE THE CYBER SECURITY AGENCY IN HOMELAND SECURITY.

I THINK CHRISTOPHER KREBBS RAN THAT DURING THE LAST ELECTION AND SAID IT WAS ACTUALLY, IN TERMS OF ELECTION SECURITY, IT WAS THE BEST WE HAD HAD, THE STRONGEST WE'VE HAD.

SO WHAT ABOUT THE WOMAN WHO IS RUNNING THE ORGANIZATION BEEN APPOINTED TO RUN THIS, NINA JANKOWICZ.

THERE HAS BEEN CRITICISM THAT SHE IS NOT BIPARTISAN.

SHE IS VERY MUCH A PARTISAN.

KRISTI, DO YOU WANT TO TAKE A CRACK AT THAT?

>> YEAH, I THINK WHAT EVERYBODY HAS SAID ABOUT CREATING, IN THIS PARTICULAR POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT , YOU KNOW, VERY, VERY EXTREMELY, IF YOU CAN PUT IT THAT WAY, NON-PARTISAN OR AT LEAST BIPARTISAN OVERSIGHT BOARD HERE IS THE WAY TO DO IT.

AND MAYBE SHEEP-- I DON'T KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT HER BUT CERTAINLY SHE IS GETTING A LOT OF HEAT FOR THIS.

I THINK THE REPUBLICANS ARE KIND OF TRIGGER HAPPY IN THIS REGARD.

BUT I THINK, YEAH, I THINK THAT THEY COULD HAVE MADE MANY MORE EFFORTS TO NAME THE GROUP BETTER, MAKE IT VERY CLEARLY NON-PARTISAN AND ADVISORY AS EVERYBODY HAS SUGGESTED.

>> I THINK HER APPOINTMENT WAS A GAFF.

PART OF THE THINGS THAT THEY'RE GOING FOR IS HOW, WITH 100 BIDEN LAPTOP STORIES, THERE WAS NO THERE THERE.

THERE WAS.

>> HER EXPERTISE IS IN RUSSIA.

IT SHOULD BE NOTED.

>> THERE SHOULD BE EXPERTS ON RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION ON THE BOARD OBVIOUSLY.

>> NOW IF IT SEEMS LIKE YOU ARE HEARING A LOT MORE ABOUT SHOOTINGS IN RECENT YEARS, IT'S BECAUSE YOU ARE.

GUN VIOLENCE SPIKED IN 2020.

45,000 AMERICANS WERE FATALLY SHOT THAT YEAR.

THAT INCLUDES SUICIDES AND ACCIDENTAL SHOOTINGS AS WELL AS MURDERS.

THE MURDER RATE BY FIREARM ROSE TO THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN 25 YEARS, WITH GUN-RELATED HOMICIDES RISING IN ALL RACIAL AND DEMOGRAPHIC CATEGORIES.

THE REASONS BEHIND THE SURGE ARE NOT WELL UNDERSTOOD, WITH SEVERAL FACTORS LIKELY PLAYING A ROLE.

HOW DO WE GET A HANDLE ON THIS?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I MEAN THERE ARE TWO THINGS THAT NEED TO BE WORKED ON AND ONE OF THEM IS TARGETING PLACES, WHICH IS A TERRIBLE PARALLEL WITH WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

BUT HOT SPOT POLICING IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT WITH WE SATURATE AN AREA WITH THAT WE HAVE A LARGE AMOUNT OF VIOLENCE, SUCH AS GUN VIOLENCE, IT BRINGS IT DOWN, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU USE A PROBLEM ORIENTED POLICING APPROACH.

SO THOSE TWO COMPONENTS.

PROBLEM ORIENTED POLICING IS IDENTIFYING THE UNDERLYING ISSUES CAUSING IT.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN NEW ZEALAND, THEY HAD A SERIES OF BURGLARIES RISING AND THEY USED THE PROBLEM ORIENTED POLICING MODEL AND IDENTIFIED THAT BURGLARY WAS A SYMPTOM OF WHAT WAS ACTUALLY OCCURRING.

AND THE UNDERLYING ISSUE WAS DRUG USERS.

SO THEY IDENTIFIED WAYS TO DEAL WITH THE DRUG USERS.

>> SO THERE IS A BROOKING INSTITUTION REPORT THAT SAYS MOST OF THE RISE IS HAPPENING IN PLACES WHERE SHOOTINGS ARE ALREADY COMMON.

SO I ASSUME THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF A LOCATION.

I MEAN WE CAN KIND OF TARGET CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOODS BUT THAT RAISES OTHER ISSUES, DOES IT NOT?

>> I LIKE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING BECAUSE THE REASONS TO GO AND LOOK AT THE UN LYING STRUCTURAL ISSUES THAT ARE THERE AND ONE OF THEM, POVERTY COULD BE ONE, DRUG USE COULD BE ONE.

AND WHAT THEY FOUND FROM THE BROOKING STUDY IS 54% OF GUN RELATED DEATHS WERE ACTUALLY SUICIDE.

43% BEING MURDER AND U.S. POLICE HAVE ALSO KILLED IN 2020, A RECORD NUMBER OF 1055 PEOPLE.

WHAT I WANT TO GET AT IS MAYBE WE HAVE MORE TARGET THE POLICING IN HOT SPOTS, VERY GOOD, BUT WE NEED TO GO BEYOND THAT, BROADER LEGISLATION.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, REDUCE IMPUNITY OF GUN MANUFACTURERS.

LET THEM BE SUED IN COURT.

OR, FOR EXAMPLE, I TOOK AN AMERICAN POLITICS CLASSER WITH WE DID A SIMULATION AND WHAT THE STUDENTS CAME UP WITH IS COMING UP AS ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS IS TREAT GUN SALES LIKE AUTOMOBILE REGISTRATION, RIGHT?

YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW TO SHOOT THE GUN.

YOU NEED TO REGISTER IT.

YOU NEED TO RENEW IT.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A LICENSE.

ON THE WHOLE WE HAVE TO MOVE TOWARD A DEES CA LAKER TO SOCIETY AND THAT INCLUDES ABILITY TO SUE GUN MANUFACTURERS, CONTROL THE NUMBER OF GUNS BUT DEMILITARIZE POLICE.

WE DON'T NEED POLICE DRESSED UP AS ROBO COPS AS WE SAW DURING THE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTEDS.

SOCIETY WIDE LEGISLATED DEESCALATION OF ARMS AND FIREARMS.

>> BUT THAT'S FAIRLY PIE IN THE SKY.

THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

I THINK YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT AND THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE PURCHASE MORE GUNS IN THE PANDEMIC AND THE FACT THAT WE ALREADY HAVE, 120 GUNS FOR EVERY RESIDENT IN THIS COUNTRY WHICH IS INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND IT, MEANS THAT YOUR SOLUTION IS A GOOD IDEA BUT UNDOABLE.

ED.

>> GO AHEAD, CHAD.

>> I WANT TO CLARIFY ONE POINT WITH A GRAPH.

WE ARE AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF HOMICIDE RATE IN THE LAST 25 YEARS BUT NOT AT THE LEVELS OF 1970s.

I'M CONCERNED BUT NOT OVERWHELMINGLY PANICKED AT THIS POINT.

I WANT TO POINT OUR VIEWERS TO INTERESTING RESEARCH THAT IS COMING FROM MAX KAPUCHSON.

A YOUNG ECONOMIST AT CORNELL WORKING ON A LOT OF THESE ISSUES AND ONE OF THE THINGS HE TALKED ABOUT IS THIS, THAT A LOT OF VIOLENT HOMICIDES THAT ARE HAPPENING ARE NOT BASED ON PREMEDITATED DECISION MAKING BUT RATHER COMING FROM IMPULSES AND IN THAT KIND OF ENVIRONMENT, THINGS LIKE POLICING AND INCARCERATION WILL BE LESS EFFECTIVE AS DETERRENTS.

AND SO HE IS RUNNING SOME EXPERIMENTS IN CHICAGO THAT DO COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPY.

BASICALLY COUNSELING KINDS OF EFFORTS TO TRY TO TRAIN PEOPLE HOW TO CHANNEL THEIR ANGER AND THEIR FRUSTRATION INTO SOMETHING LESS VIOLENT THAN HOMICIDE.

AND I THINK THAT'S SOME INTERESTING WORK.

SO I DISAGREE WITH A LOT OF WHAT YOU SAID.

BUT COMING UP WITH SOME OTHER KIND OF POLICING STRATEGIES IS AN INTERESTING ONE AND I THINK IT'S CONSISTENT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

C.B.T.

IS WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, HAS A LOT OF EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE RESEARCH BEHIND IT.

AND IT HAS SHOWN TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN CHANGING PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR AND THE WAY THAT THEY THINK ABOUT THINGS.

SO THAT'S A GREAT PREVENTATIVE COMPONENT BUT I HAVE TO ADDRESS THE DEMILITARIZING THE POLICE IS A RIDICULOUS IDEA.

WHEN YOU HAVE A MASS SHOOTING LIKE IN LAS VEGAS WHERE SOMEBODY IS POPPING UP OFF ROUNDS INTO A CROWD.

YOU CAN'T HAVE POLICE OFFICERS SHOW UP WITH CONSTRUCTION WORKING VESTS AND TRY TO SLOW THINGS DOWN.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO STOP THE SHOOTER FROM ACTIVELY KILLING OTHER PEOPLE.

>> CAN I SAY SOMETHING TO SUPPORT THAT, TOO?

THIS IS RESEARCH FROM MAX ALONG WITH DOUG MILL MILLER WHO IS ALSO AT CORNELL AND SOME OTHER FOLKS.

JUST MORE POLICE IS A VALUABLE THING.

AND IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, YOU ADD POLICE AND THEY'RE GOING ARREST MORE BAD GUYS AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE INCARCERATED AND IT'S EXPENSIVE.

IT'S NOT JUST THAT.

IT'S HIRING MORE POLICE REDUCES THE PROBABILITY OF OR INCREASES THE PROBABILITY OF BEING CAUGHT AND THAT DETERS PEOPLE FROM COMMITTING CRIMES IN THE FIRST PLACE AND IT'S MUCH CHEAPER TO DO THAT THAN IT IS TO INCARCERATE PEOPLE SO THEY HAVE THIS EVIDENCE THAT SUGGESTS A 2% INCREASE IN THE POLICE FORCE DECREASES CRIMES BY 5%.

THAT'S PRETTY SUBSTANTIAL AND SO YOU GET COATH COST SAVINGS, DECREASED... >> AND HOMICIDES.

>> BUT THAT'S NOT JUST HOMICIDES.

THAT'S CRIME.

CRIME IS UP ALL KINDS OF AREAS.

>> SEVERAL REPORTS ARE COUNTER TO THAT.

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH MANY OF THIS STUFF.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY A NEED FOR DEMILITARIZATION OF POLICE AND ADDING POLICE TO POLICE FORCE DOESN'T REDUCE VIOLENCE.

IT'S HOW YOU PARSE THE DATA.

THIS IS ALL LIKE VERY PARTISAN IN THE WAY PEOPLE DO THIS RESEARCH AN KIND OF SELL IT, PROP BEGAN DIES PROPAGANDIZE IT.

THERE ARE OTHER RESEARCH THAT SHOWS THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

>> CANNOT DO BOTH, CAN YOU NOT ADD POLICE AND THEN... >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> BUT YOUR POINT ABOUT, I THINK YOU SAID IT'S A RIDICULOUS NOTION TO DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE.

>> IT.

>> Susan: BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO, IN EVERY SITUATION, GO IN LIKE YOU POINTED THE WORST POSSIBLE ONE, LAS VEGAS.

BUT IN OTHER SITUATIONS, PERHAPS THAT IS ESCALATING WHEN YOU ARE SHOWING UP IN AN ARMORED CARRIER.

>> I'M NOT SUGGESTING WE SHOW UP TO SCHOOLS DRESSED IN SWAT GEAR BUT WE HAVE MASS SHOOTINGS EVERY YEAR AND IT'S GOING UP EVERY YEAR.

HAVE YOU TO BE ABLE TO STOP ACTIVE HOMICIDE.

THERE IS NO DEESCALATING SOMEONE KILLING OTHER PEOPLE.

>> WE ARE FUNDING POLICE MORE AND MORE AND MASS SHOOTING IS GOING UP MORE AND MORE.

>> WE ARE NOT FUNDING POLICE... >> WE HAVE BEEN DEFUNDING POLICE.

>> THAT IS NOT TRUE.

>> LOOK AT THE GRAPH THAT WE HAD UP THERE.

>> BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT DOESN'T PAN OUT.

WE KEEP SAYING FUND THE POLICE MORE AND MORE, HERE GIVE THEM ALL THIS RIOT GEAR, THINGS ARE GOING TO GO AWAY.

THEY DON'T GO AWAY.

>> IT'S NOT GOING TO GO AWAY BUT THEY HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH IT.

WHO ARE YOU GOING TO CALL WHEN YOU TAKE ALL THE POLICE AWAY, YOU TAKE ALL THEIR ABILITY TO GO IN AND STOP ACTIVE HOMICIDES?

>> IT'S NOT ONE OR THE OTHER, RIGHT?

IT'S BOTH AND.

WE NEED A DEMILITARIZED WELL TRAINED POLICE THAT IS NOT TRIGGER HAPPY POLICING INCARCERATING THE LARGEST NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

HOW IS THAT A NEW NORMAL.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS IS WORKING AT ALL.

>> INCARCERATION IS HIGH BUT POLICE PER CAPITA HAS NOT GONE UP IN THE WAY YOU ARE CLAIMING.

>> WE ARE GOING TO LEAVE THAT RIGHT NOW.

STUDENT DEBT IS AT A RECORD HIGH-THE SECOND LARGEST CATEGORY OF DEBT AFTER MORTGAGES.

PRESIDENT BIDEN IS UNDER PRESSURE TO CANCEL AT LEAST SOME FEDERAL STUDENT LOANS.

ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL HE SAID HE'D FORGIVE 10 THOUSAND DOLLARS, BUT ACTIVISTS WANT MUCH MORE.

IS PROVIDING ANY RELIEF FAIR TO THOSE WHO ALREADY PAID, OR NEVER WENT TO COLLEGE?

BIDEN SAID HE'LL ANNOUNCE A DECISION SOON.

CHAD, WHAT SHOULD HE DO?

>> I THINK IF THE GOVERNMENT HAS AN EXTRA DOLLAR OF AID TO GIVE, IT SHOULD GIVE TO IT POOR PEOPLE WHO NEED IT, NOT COLLEGE GRADUATES WHO DO NOT.

WE TALKED ABOUT A MONTH AUTOING AGO ON THIS PROGRAM PEOPLE WITH A FOUR-YEAR DEGREE EARN 85% MORE THAN PEOPLE WITHOUT A DEGREE.

LET'S LOOK AT THE GRAPH.

ON ONE AXIS YOU HAVE THE POPULATION WITH A BACHELOR'S DEGREE AND THE OTHER AXIS, THE PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY IN THE U.S. HOPEFULLY WHAT YOU SEE THERE IS A NEGATIVE RELATIONSHIP.

STATES WITH LOTS OF COLLEGE EDUCATED PEOPLE TEND TO HAVE LOW POVERTY RATES.

BUT WHAT I ALSO WANT YOU TO NOTICE IS THAT ALL OF THOSE HIGHLY EDUCATED LOW POVERTY STATES, THOSE ARE BLUE STATES.

THAT'S THE DEMOCRATIC BASE.

THEY'RE LOBBYING FOR THEIR OWN SELF INTEREST, NOT FOR ACTUAL POVERTY REDUCTION AND IT'S HYPOCRISY AT ITS UGLIEST.

SO TO THE QUESTION, WHAT SHOULD BIDEN DO?

PUSH FOR PELL GRANTS, PUSH FOR SUBSIDIZED LOANS, THE CHILD TAX CREDIT OR EXTANGS OF E.I.T.C., THE KIND OF POVERTY REDUCTION PROGRAMS THAT ARE MORE WIDESPREAD AND REALLY EFFECTIVE.

NOT THIS DEBT RELIEF.

>> AND SO LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION.

I AGREE WITH THAT COMPLETELY.

I THINK ON POLICY GROUNDS AND POLITICAL GROUNDS THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.

THEY SHOULD TARGET THE HELP WITH LOANS OR LOAN FORGIVENESS BUT IS IT THE CASE, AS I'VE READ, THAT THAT DOESN'T MATTER SO MUCH IN TERMS OF HOW IT AFFECTS THE ECONOMY; THAT EVEN THE UNCONTROLLED OR UNTARGETTED DEBT FORGIVENESS DOESN'T REALLY INCREASE THE NATIONAL DEBT VERY MUCH.

SO WE SHOULD GO AHEAD WITH IT.

IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF HOW WE DO IT AND WHERE WE-- IN WHAT WAY THE HELP IS TARGETED.

>> I THINK, IF I'M UNDERSTANDING YOUR QUESTION RIGHT, YOU KNOW, AND JUST IN THE REALM OF ECONOMICS, YOU HAVE AN EXTRA DOLLAR THAT YOU CAN SPEND ON ONE PROGRAM, THAT'S AN EXTRA LESS YOU USE ON ANOTHER PROGRAM AND SO THE WAY THAT I'M APPROACHING THIS PROBLEM IS A MATTER OF PRIORITIES AND WHO SHOULD WE TARGET FIRST.

IF WE HAVE EXTRA AID TO GIVE.

>> BEN, WHAT IS YOUR TAKE?

SHOULD WE GET RID-- CANCEL SOME OF THE DEBT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN POLICY AND IT HAS BEEN FOR YEARS.

SINCE 1985, IT HAS HAS RISEN 500% IN TUITION COSTED.

YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE BURDENED WITH, THIS CAN'T BUY HOUSES, CAN'T RETIRE.

YOU HAVE HEALTHCARE COSTS THAT CONTINUE TO RISE.

UNIVERSITIES ARE BEING LESS SUBSIDIZED.

THIS IS BROKEN.

IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FIX IT, THEN YOU NEED TO FIX THE ABILITY OF SOMEBODY THAT GETS IN SO MUCH DEBT FROM SCHOOL TO BE ABLE TO DISCHARGE THAT IN BANKRUPTCY COURT AT THE VERY LEAST.

IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FIX IT, YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

>> OKAY, WHAT ABOUT THE FAIRNESS QUESTION THOUGH?

>> I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH HIM.

ENTIRE DEBT SHOULD BE IT CANCEL BUT I ALSO WANT TO ADD TO THAT THAT ALONG WITH THE CANCELLATION OF DEBT, THERE SHOULD BE A SUSTAINED EFFORT.

NOW THIS MAY BE PIE IN THE SKY BUT STRUCTURALLY TRUE THAT PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ENDING UP IN MASSIVE DEBT WHILE DOING THEIR EDUCATION.

FREE TRADE SCHOOL, FREE COMMUNITY COLLEGES ARE A GREAT WAY TO ADVANCE A POPULATION.

AND I JUST WANT TO PUT, WE TALK A BIG GAME ABOUT VETERANS.

VETERANS ACTUALLY GRADUATE WITH ABOUT $27,000 WORTH OF LOANS THEY CAN'T PAY.

THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

WE TALK ABOUT BLACK LIVES MATTER, WHICH IS AGAIN, DEMOCRATS LIKE TO TALK ABOUT BUT BLACK STUDENTS FOUR YEARS AFTER COLLEGE, HAVE 25,000 MORE LOANS THAN WHITE GRADUATES.

AND THESE ARE VERY IMPORTANT STATISTICS THAT WE FEED TO TAKE CARE OF-- WE NEED TO TAKE CARE.

>> JUST REALLY QUICKLY WHAT ABOUT THAT FAIRNESS QUESTION?

WE CANCEL ALL THE DEBT.

HOW IS THAT PAIR TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY PAID?

>> I HEAR FROM THE PUNDITS AND ALL AND THAT'S A BOGUS QUESTION ALL TOGETHER.

WHY?

BECAUSE IF TODAY WE HAVE MEDICARE FOR ALL, AM I GOING TO COMPLAIN THAT I HAVE PAID SO MUCH INSURANCE AND MONEY FOR MY HEALTH BEFORE SO IT'S UNFAIR THAT NOW I DON'T HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING?

THAT MAKES NO SENSE.

IF I WAS SMOKING POT, RIGHT, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW POT IS LEGAL, OH I SPENT MOST OF MONEY ON POT BEFORE, WHY IS IT LEGAL NOW?

THAT MAKES NO SENSE.

I THINK IT'S A COMPLETELY MOOT QUESTION.

>> WE HAVE TO GO TO OUR As AND Fs, KRISTI YOUR F. >> I HAVE AN F JUST WHEN YOU THINK THINGS CAN'T GET MORE CRAZY AN F TO MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN RYAN KELLEY OPENLY ATTACKING DEMOCRACY.

SOCIALISM.

HE SAID IT STARTS WITH DEMOCRACY.

THAT'S THE TICKET TO THE LEFT.

THEY WANT TO PUSH THE IDEA OF DEMOCRACY THAT TURNS INTO SOCIALISM WHICH TURNS INTO COMMUNISM IN EVERY INSTANCE.

>> ANIRBAN, YOUR F?

>> SPEAKING OF DEMOCRACY, MY F GOES TO INDIA'S GOVERNMENT INCREASING RELIANCE ON A CLONNIAL TRADITIONAL LAW TO SUPPRESS AND DEFINE JOURNALISTIC FREEDOM.

THESE POLICIES TARGETING ANYONE WHO CRITICIZES ESPOUSED BY THE GOVERNMENT IS, THE SUPREME COURT CAME OUT AGAINST IT AND SAYING HE IS GOING TO RECONSIDER IT BUT THAT IS TO BE SEEN.

>> BREXIT EARNS MY PERPETUAL F FOR THREATENING THIS WEEK IRISH PEACE.

SINN FEIN BECAME THE LARGEST PARTY IN NORTHERN IRELAND BUT YOU MIGHT HAVE MISSED THE UNIONISTS ARE VERY ANGRY ABOUT THE SOFT BORDER ON THE ISLAND AND HOW IT GREATLY COMPLICATES TRADE BETWEEN NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE REST OF THE U.K. PAY ATTENTION TO TO WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.

THERE IS A REAL CONCERN ABOUT STABILITY.

>> THOSE TROUBLES COULD COME BACK.

>> YEAH.

>> MY F GOES TO A GROUP SO RESPONSIBLE FOR STORING 1100 POUNDS OF COCAINE AT A COFFEE WAREHOUSE IN SWITZERLAND THIS WEEK.

ESTIMATED TO BE WORTH ABOUT $50 MILLION ON THE STREET.

IT ARRIVED FROM BRAZIL ON A SHIP IN FIVE DIFFERENT CONTAINERS.

NOW THE SWISS GIANT HAS REACHED OUT AND SAYS, YOU KNOW, THEY OWN THE WAREHOUSE AND IT DIDN'T COME IN CONTACT WITH ANY OF THEIR PRODUCTS.

>> OKAY.

NOW As KRISTI.

>> AN A TO MY HOME STATE OF NEBRASKA, THE TRUMP ENDORSED CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR WHO HAD BEEN ACCUSED OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT BY SEVERAL WOMEN LOST IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY TO A MODERATE REPUBLICAN AND THE SITTING SECRETARY OF STATE DEFEATED TWO TRUMP SUPPORTING OPPONENTS SO THANKFULLY IT LOOKS LIKE THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN NEB IN NEBRASKA WILL BE CERTIFIED BY TWO PEOPLE WHO RESPECT THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

>> WE KNOW HOW IT WILL TURN OUT THOUGH IN NEBRASKA.

LET'S GO TO CHAD.

>> I BEG YOUR PARDON.

>> SO, I ATTENDED AN ECONOMICS CONFERENCE IN JAMAICA LAST WEEK BECAUSE MY LIFE IS REALLY DIFFICULT.

AND THE KEYNOTE SPEAKER THERE, HE ACTUALLY GAVE A SHOUT OUT TO SYRACUSE CENTERSTATE CENTERSTATE CORPORATION FOR ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AS A REGIONAL ECONOMIC PROGRAM DONE WELL, HE CONTRASTED THAT WITH THE BILLS STADIUM AS ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DOING BAD.

BACK TO THE POINT, CENTERSTATE, YOU ARE GETTING INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

>> ANIRBAN.

>> MY A GOES TO THE INDIANA GRADUATE STUDENTS TO FORM A UNION AGAINST RELENTLESS STRONG ARM TACTICS BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

THE WORKERS STRUGGLE FOR DIGNITY WILL CONTINUE IN THE FALL.

>> BEN.

>> HEY, MY A GOES TO A CANINE NAMED ZORO.

WHAT HAPPENED EARLIER THIS WEEK, A STOLEN MERCEDES SUV WAS TRAVELING 107 MILES FOR 150 MILES BEFORE THEY USED STOP STICKS.

THE DRIVER JUMPED AND RAN AND ZORO WAS ABLE TO CATCH THE THAN.

>> WAY TO GO ZORO.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING.

FOR COMMENTS YOU CAN WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO VIEW THE SHOW AGAIN YOU CAN VIEW IT WILL AT WCNY.ORG.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FOR ALL OF US AT "IVORY TOWER."

HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.