Funding for To the Contrary provided by the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation the Park Foundation and the Charles A Frueauff Foundation.

Coming up on To the Contrary, the co-founder of Rolling Stone magazine has rolled off his throne on the board of directors of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

That, due to implausible remarks about women and women of color artists from rock and roll music powerhouse Jann Wenner.

While he was promoting his new book.

Then Period Poverty.

Why 20 to 25% of American girls who menstruate are missing school when they get their periods.

and how that's being addressed.

(MUSIC) Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe'.

Welcome to To the Contrary, a weekly discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

Up first, did he really say that?

Jann Wenner, co-founder of Rolling Stone magazine, has been unceremoniously removed from the board of directors of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

That, for saying that black and female musicians weren't included in his new book about rock and roll entitled "The Masters", and that because they, quote, lacked the articulation to be featured.

Wenner may not be a household name, But he's been a powerhouse in the rock world where for decades he has both made and rejected the Kings and Queens of rock and roll.

Wenner's book includes his interviews with white male rock icons such as Bob Dylan, John Lennon and Bruce Springsteen.

After his improbable remarks, Wenner issued an apology, acknowledging his insensitivity and expressing regret for any harm caused.

Joining us today are Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, Democrat from Washington, D.C. Hadley Heath Manning, vice president for policy at the Independent Women's Forum.

Erin Matson, co-founder of Reproaction.

And Republican strategist Rina Shah.

Eleanor, how can somebody, especially a member of the LGBTQ community, be so insensitive?

Well, I must tell you that as a black person, I'm used to being a token, but I'm not used to seeing none.

And that's what he's given us.

So he was booted off of the board and he needed to be booted off of the board for insensitivity and frankly, for lack of knowledge.

Is apologizing enough.

Let's just say that he sit and make note of the fact he's 77 years old.

I read online.

He's worth $700 million.

Started out as a, you know, middle class journalist, I suppose, when he launched, co-founded Rolling Stone magazine, which became a huge hit.

Shouldn't he do more like give a bunch of money to do some organization that promotes women and people of color in rock and roll?

No amount of donation or philanthropy is going to erase what he said.

I don't find his comments to be just insensitive.

I find them to be shameful.

They're a black mark on an iconic name.

And what he's essentially done is erase the wreck and be the sort of contributions, not just contributions, but the voices of these incredibly talented performers, simply because he dubbed them not as articulate.

And that's just a moment in which you have to say, this is hate.

This is what he looks like when it is sort of shrouded in, oh, well, it was just an insensitive comment.

It's way more than that.

This is this is a moment at which we have to say women of color, black women in particular, are used to being erased, but it shouldn't be normalized regardless of somebody's age or their economic status.

Right.

But I'm just saying, I totally agree with everything you just said, however, and I don't think his image is ever going to be resurrected.

He's going to die an old hated man seen as insensitive and just not a credit to the rock music world or the sixties.

The meaning of the sixties when he first became hugely successful until he dies.

However, that doesn't mean he shouldn't give away $100 million to a foundation to promote the, you know, the accomplishments, I think, of Big Mama Thornton.

I think of, you know, so many women, white and of color, who starting from the fifties.

But Bonnie, I don't know if a donation or some kind of acts that you're talking about would be seen as sincere at this point You know, is it something that people would just see as a PR stunt?

It's certainly something he could he could do.

Right.

-But, my, (crosstalk) -Who cares what Really if he does it from if if he does something dramatic like that, people won't forgive him.

However.

It's something it's something to help other people as opposed to stepping on the heads of of the people who founded Rock and Roll Black blues musicians were the founders of Rock and roll, really back in the fifties.

Well, for me, this whole incident is another example of someone from an industry like Hollywood, the entertainment industry, in this case music journalism.

These are industries that have a reputation for being progressive and being on the left, you know, politically.

And yet even people who are on the left politically can't navigate this issue as as well as they should in many cases.

And so I you know, I think many Americans look at the messages and the content coming out of these industries.

They're very progressive messages and content.

But the question is, is it sincere?

that introspection is good But I think that introspection is a lot more important than any PR stunt that anybody could do at this point.

Okay.

Your thoughts, Erin Yeah, I mean, Bonnie, it's an interesting idea that he could give away some money.

I mean, I agree.

He's a 77 year old man.

He's got $700 million.

I'm not worried about him.

But let's think about Rolling Stone, which he founded and that but he left.

Let's make he.

-He retired from Rolling Stone.

-Absolutely.

I believe it was a couple of years ago.

Absolutely he did, Bonnie.

But you know what?

Jann Wenner is just the tip of the iceberg and he's one representative of the problem.

And I would like to see Rolling Stone's editorial board really react to what happened and think meaningfully about what they're going to do to make sure that their platform is including the women of rock and roll and people of color, and really putting it forward and taking a hard look at their statistics and who's on the cover right now and in what positions and, you know, everything.

So I think it's something it's something that should be considered across the industry and we shouldn't just pin it on him.

Rena, I kept thinking about you after I heard this remark because I thought, here's a guy who was a journalist.

He knows public relations.

He dealt with PR people for rock stars his whole career.

And if he had just had a good strategist who said to him, just if people ask you about this, just say these were the people I interviewed in the very beginning, I will.

Later down the road, I will have another book coming out that features women and people of color.

Why did he have to say they weren't articulate?

That was so insulting.

And by the way, he was grammatically incorrect himself when he said it.

It just shows how little he cares about people and the world outside of him.

Right.

And that's what these industries have done.

They've they've looked inside.

They haven't looked outside for a long time.

The entire entertainment industry is guilty of this.

The political industry is also guilty of this industry's need to change.

And the people within them who who've been at the at the top and been sort of kingmakers, who've been seen as those who've been tastemakers, influencers, the original influencer, if you will.

They they don't hold themselves responsible or accountable for just saying what comes to mind.

So I fully believe that this is what he thought and didn't want to hold back simply because it was what he thought.

He didn't have to say this.

That's the problem here, is that he could have held back and he could have said nothing at all instead of being not just insulting, but showing that he has hatred for a certain type of person.

There are people out there who are going to hear this and think this is a reflection of Rolling Stone, though he's been departed from the brand for some time.

I was going to say he was kicked off the board of the Rolling Stone Foundation.

Rock and roll.

No Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation.

- I'm sorry.

- Which, by the way, was another rock institution that he helped found that helped raise the money.

For the board of that money.

You know, he apologized.

But that that doesn't make up for what happened.

It shows who he really is.

Well, I just I wanted to add from a PR standpoint, obviously, there were many, many better ways he could have phrased himself in this situation.

He could have explained himself.

He could have, as you said, Bonnie pointed to future work that he might do.

He could have explained how many of the white males that he featured in his book were influenced by artists of color and by female musicians.

He could have he could have done a lot of different directions.

It was a very bad choice that he made in the interview to talk about this issue the way that he did.

He could have also pointed to the issue of tokenism and said, I really wanted to reject tokenism and I didn't want to feature someone in my book simply because of the pressure to conform to the DEI norms and various industries today.

So there's many different directions he could have gone that would have kept him out of this out of the storm.

I'm not sure that response would have saved it from criticism.

But not.

Having had.

Better tokenism, then nothing.

Right.

Bonnie, there's just one thing I'd like to add.

I mean, there's also a publisher and editors that let this book travel to completion with just featuring white men.

And so I think, again, we need to look more broadly at the full culture.

I mean, it's inexcusable on everyone's part and he just said the quiet part out loud at the end.

I have to admit something on my own part, and I want your thoughts on it.

Of course, three people on the panel are not old enough to remember the sixties, but I came of you know, I was a teenager in the mid to late sixties.

And I remember my idols were all men, not on purpose, but that's just how it happened.

Did Jann Wenner prejudice me that way?

Was I not smart enough to realize what I was doing?

Because nowadays, you know, you see Madonna, you see Barbie, the movie.

You see all kinds of Beyonce.

And they are idolized by women, by girls.

Was it?

Tell me why my response was wrong and what I should have done to have fixed it back then.

Well, Bonnie, if I may, as a as a former dancer and choreographer, we're leaving out a name here that I just can't help but inject here.

Tina Turner, the queen of rock n roll.

That's who I grew up idolizing.

And I knew the history.

And I know what she came up through and the adversity she faced.

And when she passed, I shed a tear because she was so hugely influential on young girls like me in the eighties and nineties and especially the nineties, I went to the two-thousands really into my dance career.

Some I professionally.

Tina is just an image I watched over and over.

So for him to exclude her just feels absolutely un-American almost on one level.

But I will say even coming up, growing up in the eighties and nineties, in that nineties being really pivotal for me, I feel like a lot of my perspectives were influenced by white older males because the advertising industry was so big and robust and and the influence that young women's magazines had on my life.

I can say that you were prejudiced, and if you ask me, it wasn't your fault because all the messages around you told you something else.

Well, you know, we two things.

I want to point out.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, what about ten years ago had an exhibit that it sent around the country to various museums about the women of rock and roll.

And I learned so much in that exhibit.

I mean, I was not really a fan of Joan Jett, but she had huge influence.

Debbie Harry had huge influence.

And we actually profiled Darlene Love after she kind of starred in 20 Feet from Stardom, which was all about all the people, mainly women, who were singing backup in these bands, who created the sound for these bands and got no credit for it.

I can't think of her name, but the singer, who was a backup band and about whom Mick Jagger wrote Brown Sugar.

She was a black woman who was sleeping with and got paid no money for, you know, very little money.

Didn't get a share of the revenue as she I would hope, would today, because the recording industry is much more advanced with contracts.

But what do we do about that?

What do we do?

How do we moving forward, make sure that everybody who contributes gets something financially back.

Who maybe they've learned from the loud criticism that, you know, that this exclusion propelled.

It wasn't a criticism that was kept to people's selves.

Rolling Stone could not help but hear that the criticism and apologize.

So so it seems to me that when something like this happens, you got to talk out loud.

And we're doing that right here and we're about out of time from erasing women from rock and roll to the current health of American girls.

A recent study by a global health company found females students in the U.S. are facing what they call period poverty.

This term means some students lack access to essential menstrual protection.

The study surveyed more than 2000 parents of female students between the ages of eight and 18.

It found that one in five grapple with period poverty.

Up to 34% of parents report their children go to school without necessary supplies.

14% miss school to avoid embarrassment when they don't have proper menstrual products.

Students resort to makeshift solutions, including toilet paper, kitchen rolls, or doubling up on underwear.

One county in Florida, Duval County, just announced plans to give away tampons and pads in Title 1 schools, which have high percentages of low income students.

My gosh.

HADLEY, when you listen to this, when I listen to it, it makes me feel like what kind of a developing nation have we become?

And whose responsibility is this to change that?

Well, my first thought about this was, you know, I'd be curious about historical data on this in the United States, because the onset of puberty is not a new issue.

It's not something that girls, adolescent girls today are facing, that generations of women throughout history in the United States and elsewhere have not faced.

So it's not as if this is a new topic.

And I'd be curious about period poverty among generations past.

I doubt that that's a new issue either.

From a policy perspective, I think every school nurse in this country should have supplies, not just in Title one schools, but in every schools for that day when, regardless of socioeconomic background, a girl may be at school without what she needs and the school nurse should be able to help her with that.

And also, I think many states, including the state where I live, Colorado, are starting to move feminine hygiene products from the categorization with cosmetics and toiletries under products that face a normal sales tax to necessity items like food.

No one is buying feminine hygiene products without it being a necessity.

It's not a good a luxury good that we buy or consume simply because we want to.

It's because we need those products.

I think if we're doing that, then we might also want to consider doing that with incontinence products, with diapers, baby wipes, things that, again, we're not buying these products because we want to we're buying them because we need to to supply for our own health needs and those of our families.

So I think that's one reasonable step we can take to reduce at least part of the cost of these items.

Is that going to be an I mean, if you can't afford tampons, it $5 a box plus 6% is the 6% going to make them affordable?

Doesn't make that big of a difference, but it is.

Every penny that families can save is helpful.

And I think it sends an important message to that.

Lawmakers understand that this is a good that is a necessity item.

The notion that that you noted that there was an attempt by some to give away this the the supply The products, right.

I am and the girls stay home from school.

About a third of them don't go to school.

And you can imagine why I don't want to put this right in the category of food, but it's right under it.

It's a necessity of life for a young woman.

Yeah.

I mean, I'll just take this conversation, raise it.

I think it's the height of misogyny that we have in our public restrooms.

There is toilet paper available, soap is available that we don't just have as an assumption everywhere that there is an available pads and tampons free and included in those bathrooms.

It's, you know, this is half of the population.

This is a basic need that we have.

You know, I also think about how there's COVID tests that you can get for free at the library.

Why can you not get period products for free at the library?

This is an area where public policy has utterly failed us.

I agree with Hadley in the sense that we shouldn't be taxing period products, and I appreciate that.

She also brought up diapers and wipes.

I mean, this again, because that's coded to caregiving.

It's tied back to misogyny.

So this is a critical social justice issue, not just for girls, but for non-binary and transgender young people.

We need to make sure that people have access to education and we need to make sure that people of all ages are not subject to this injustice of having to literally absent themselves from society because they can't afford these basic needs.

And you left out men.

You know, I think men's children, daughters need these products just as much as women's children do.

But women's daughters, I should say, I don't think there's a gender difference in terms of daughters needs.

Rina, your thoughts?

Yeah, As a mother of three very young daughters, I'm concerned about gender inequities like this one.

This is the biggest one of our time, I believe, in in this exact, like basic necessities realm, aside from what mothers go through.

So when we talk about, you know, young American women who are between the ages of 15 and 49, not all of them use menstrual care products, but this is a situation in which you find these younger girls, though, they have the education of what's happening to their bodies.

They don't have that access.

Recently, I was traveling through the United Arab Emirates and it was not a private airport that I was at.

I was actually at a public airport, one that had some government funds, and I found period products in a public restroom.

And that took my breath away because for as long as I can remember in America, I've had to have a corridor to access tampons or pads.

And as somebody who's menstruating right now, I must say, it really, really affects the lives of young people.

I've had to miss work due to menstruation.

I've been asked to get on medication and I have not because I know the ill effects.

Of the medication myself.

I'm very on.

Birth control on different types of birth control because I've always explained painful experience, painful periods.

I've again had to miss work, I've had to miss school, I've had to buy extra products such as the type of heating pad that's inserted into underwear to take a test.

So if I'm going through this as a woman with resources, I am so concerned that young American girls are not getting the type of life they deserve in a country as rich as ours and as progressive as ours, because we need to be taking care of these young women for them to succeed and for them to move on the way their peers who are are men do.

And educating men is a part of it.

But again, that basic access and when I can see it in another nation and not hear it really was a jarring feeling.

Hadley, first I want to get back to your very poignant point about historical reference.

Well, here's one for you.

I don't think it's used much anymore, but I remember very vividly and I'm sorry if anybody is offended by this term.

It's certainly not a curse word, but women being on the rag is how you used to describe it, which says to me that, you know, 50 or 100 years ago, a lot more women were still using rags to absorb menstrual blood.

But that now we know that is not that's not hygienic.

And it could actually lead to all kinds of disease and infection.

So what do you think about the fact that, you know, in history women used rags to observe their period and no school wasn't expected to pay for that.

Right.

And now we've we've we've actually seen, I think, some great innovations on this front, some people use menstrual cups today and that's a good, sustainable alternative to using pads and tampons, which create more waste.

So we've seen some innovations in terms of the products that are available to women today.

And I also think, you know, to Rina's point about missing work, I hope that we're seeing progress in this arena in terms of workplace flexibility.

Certainly it's over.

Pandemic was a horrific tragedy and an ongoing one.

But the move to more remote work opportunities for women that many employers are offering, I've seen a huge increase in the number of employers who are offering paid family leave, paid maternity leave.

Maybe there's more flexibility around this topic as well in terms of health and mental health, flexibility in terms of missing work or being able to work from home on days when women might help, might face specific health challenges related to menstruation or menopause or child care childbearing.

I mean, these are women's health issues, and I think there's a greater sensitivity to these issues now certainly than there was when people were described as being on the rag or when women were expected to stay in a certain part of the village when they were experiencing menstruation.

Women are very much more integrated today into our society and workplaces and have more opportunities than ever due to the increased sensitivity around these topics.

And that's a good thing.

Lastly, if public schools are expected to pay for this, what gets cut, I ask, because so, you know, the budgets of so many public schools have been stripped down that a lot of schools don't offer art classes anymore.

They don't offer music education.

They've had some of that cut out gym.

So where's the what gets cut to provide the menstrual products?

I'll be the first person to say as a parent, if my school nurse let me know that this was a need at our school, I'd be happy to donate.

I'd be happy to go to the store and buy some of these products and help stock the nurse's closet.

So I think it can start at the local level with parents and with concerned citizens helping provide for our kids in our schools.

I would agree with that.

I think public private partnerships are pivotal here.

Before we talk about cuts, because there are these emerging initiatives like dignity growth, which is also, again, a nonprofit that's working to to help with basic necessities and in combating gender inequities.

And I think there are lots more, but there aren't enough.

And if we can all start local, then we won't have to make those other cuts.

You can put a coin in and get out a Tampax.

That would be one answer that could be used and should be tried.

And I think that there would be money in it for the makers of these products.

Yeah, I mean, Bonnie, this is we're not talking about a huge expense line item here.

I mean, when you really think about it, the fact is, you know, half the population shouldn't be disenfranchized one week a month.

And just to flip back to our last topic, if Jann Wenrner is watching and he's looking for something he wants to do with this $700 million, here's a great place where he could donate some money.

Right.

And really make a difference.

So so that's my thought.

And thank you so much, Erin and everybody else for tying it all together and making it fun to to learn about these topics.

That's it for this edition.

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And whether you agree or think to the contrary, we look forward to seeing you next time.

(MUSIC) Funding for To the Contrary provided by the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation.

The Park Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation.