>> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", WEEKLY DISCUSSION AS NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, WOMEN AND MINORITIES IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

THEN, SHOULD DEMOCRATS GIVE UP ON WHITE WOMEN VOTERS?

WITH US TODAY, CONGRESSWOMAN ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, DEMOCRAT FROM THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA; LINDA CHAVEZ, CHAIR OF THE CENTER FOR EQUAL OPPORTUNITY; ERIN MATSEN, CO FOUNDER OF REPROACTION; AND PATRICE ONWUKA, SENIOR POLICY ANALYST AT THE INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S VOICE.

UP FIRST, IS THE CABINET DIVERSE ENOUGH?

THIS WEEK, MORE THAN 1000 INFLUENTIAL BLACK WOMEN PUT PRESSURE ON PRESIDENT ELECT JOE BIDEN AS HE PUTS TOGETHER HIS CABINET.

THEY SIGNED AN OPEN LETTER TO BIDEN AND VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT KAMALA HARRIS, URGING THE TRANSITION TEAM TO APPOINT MORE BLACK WOMEN.

THE LETTER REFERRED TO THE FACT THAT BLACK WOMEN WERE KEY TO THEIR VICTORY WITH 91% VOTING FOR THE BIDEN HARRIS TICKET.

SO, CONGRESSWOMAN ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, HOW IS BIDEN DOING SO FAR?

DEL.

>> Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton: WELL, HE'S DOING VERY WELL AND GETTING A FAIRLY DIVERSE GROUP AROUND HIM.

MANY OF US WHO ARE AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMEN BELIEVES HE SHOULD BE DOING BETTER ON THAT SCORE, HOWEVER, >> Bonnie: BETTER, HOW?

>> Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton: MUCH BETTER.

BECAUSE BLACK WOMEN OVERWHELMINGLY VOTED FOR THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET AND HE BENEFITED FROM THE OVERWHELMINGLY AS WELL.

>> Bonnie: RIGHT.

BUT WHAT OTHER APPOINTMENTS SHOULD BE GOING TO BLACK WOMEN, DO YOU THINK?

>> Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton: WELL, BLACK WOMEN MAY HAVE GOTTEN THE HOT APPOINTMENT IF, AS WE HEAR, MARCIA FUDGE, ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES, WILL BE APPOINTED, IT'S THERE WHERE WE ARE LOOKING.

WE ARE LOOKING FOR CABINET APPOINTMENTS.

IS MADE A LOT OF APPOINTMENTS OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND WOMEN, BUT THE PLACE TO GO NOW IS TO THE VERY TOP.

>> Bonnie: WELL, WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE MADE AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN -- HE MADE HISTORY WITH AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALE AS, APPARENTLY AS THE SECRETARY -- HIS NOMINEE FOR SECRETARY OF DEFENSE?

DOESN'T THAT TAKE -- I MEAN, HE DEVOTED THIS WAY, BUT HAVING PUT AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN MAN AND MADE HISTORY THAT WAY, DOES THAT LESSEN ITS OBLIGATION TO BLACK WOMEN?

>> Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton: WELL, I APPLAUD HIM FOR THAT.

IT'S VERY UNLIKELY THAT A BLACK WOMAN WOULD'VE BEEN APPOINTED SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

TO HAVE A BLACK MAN APPOINTED TO THAT ISSUE IS A BIG BOOM FOR BLACK AMERICANS.

AND THAT DOES NOT ERASE HIS DEBT TO AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN, THE HIGHEST BUILDING BLOCK FOR HIM AND FOR DEMOCRATS.

>> Bonnie: LINDA CHAVEZ, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> Linda Chavez: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, HE DID ALSO APPOINT A CABINET AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMAN TO BE AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS.

THAT'S A VERY HYPER -- PROFILE COURSE, BUT AS YOU EXPECT, BONNIE, I'M NOT MUCH INTO COUNTING BY RACE.

IT'S NOT SOMETHING I THINK IS USEFUL.

IN FACT, THINGS ACTUALLY BACKFIRED.

JAVIER BECERRA WHO I THINK IS IN FACT A VERY WELL-QUALIFIED APPOINTEE TO HEAD UP HHS, A LOT OF THE CRITICISM THAT IS COMING AMONG CONSERVATIVES AND EVEN FROM THE WALL STREET JOURNAL IS TREATING HIM LIKE HE IS A TOKEN LATINO IN THE ADMINISTRATION.

OF COURSE, THE DHS SECRETARY IS ALSO LATINO.

BUT I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE START THINKING OF THESE POSTS JUST IN TERMS OF THE COLOR OF THE SKIN OF WHO WAS APPOINTED, WE DO SOME DISSERVICE.

I THINK I'M GENERALLY HAPPY THAT JOE BIDEN HAS PICKED A VERY CENTRIST SLATE OF NOMINEES.

>> Bonnie: AND, PATRICE, LET ME ALLOWED TO ASK YOU BEFORE I GO TO ERIN, WHY IS HE SO PUBLIC ABOUT SAYING THAT HE'S GOING TO MAKE A VERY DIVERSE CABINET, WHICH IS OF COURSE WHAT HIS BASE HAS VOTED FOR HIM FOR IN MANY WAYS, BUT DOES HE TURN OFF THE 74 MILLION AMERICANS WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP AND YOU MUST HAVE LIKED SOMETHING ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE HAD AND HISTORICALLY, FOR THIS ERROR, A VAST MAJORITY OF WHITE MALES IN THE HIS CABINET?

>> Patrice Onwuka: WELL, I DON'T THINK MANY TRUMP SUPPORTERS WERE JUST LOOKING AT THE RACIAL AND GENDER MAKEUP OF THE CABINET, BOTH OF THE TRUMP CABINET AS WELL AS NOW THE POTENTIAL BIDEN CABINET.

I THINK THEY ARE THINKING MORE ABOUT THE POLICIES AND HOW FAR LEFT OR CENTRIST SOME OF THESE NOMINEES ARE.

YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S INTERESTING, JOE BIDEN IS IN A MINEFIELD WHEN IT COMES TO RACE AND GENDER IN HIS DIVERSITY QUOTAS THAT HAVE BEEN IN AN ESSENCE CREATED FOR HIM.

90 OF THE CASE WHERE IF YOU HAVE A QUALIFIED WHITE MALE, EVEN ONE WHO IS PART OF THE LGBTQ DE COMMUNITY, LIKE PETE BUTTIGIEG, HE WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED FOR CERTAIN CABINET APPOINTMENTS BECAUSE IT'S ASSUMED THAT THOSE SHOULD GO TO CAMINO, BLACK WOMAN OR HISPANIC MAN.

AND I AGREE WITH LINDA, THAT'S THE CHALLENGE OF WHEN YOU WERE PUTTING RACE AND GENDER OR DIVERSITY AHEAD OF MERITOCRACY AND WHETHER SOMEONE IS REALLY RIGHT FOR THE ROLE.

BUT TRUMP SUPPORTERS, I THINK THEY ARE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THESE CABINET NOMINEES WOULD WANT TO DO WHEN IT COMES TO DOMESTIC POLICY AND FOREIGN POLICY, AND THERE IS TO BE PLENTY WORRIED ABOUT SOON DOES ANYONE THINK MORE ABOUT WOMEN ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR AS LACKING THE CREDENTIALS?

MEAN, THIS IS NOT 1960.

WERE TALKING ABOUT 2020 WHEN SO MANY PEOPLE OF COLOR HAVE BEEN IN HIGH POSITIONS ALL OVER CORPORATE AMERICA AND CERTAINLY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

BECERRA, FOR EXAMPLE, FORMER MEMBER OF CONGRESS FOR 12 YEARS AND, YOU KNOW, ATTORNEY GENERAL TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, LARGEST STATE IN THE COUNTRY, YOU CAN'T -- I MEAN, CAN ANYBODY MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT THERE AREN'T -- THESE PEOPLE WERE PICKED ONLY BECAUSE OF SKIN COLOR OR RACE?

>> Patrice Onwuka: NO.

I DON'T THINK THEY ARE MAKING THAT ARGUMENT, BONNIE.

I THINK PEOPLE WILL CRITICIZE AND SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, YEAH, YOU HAVE QUALIFIED CANDIDATES, BUT WHY IS IT THAT THIS PERSON IS BETTER FOR HER ROLE THEN MAYBE THEY DON'T HAVE THE EXPERIENCE IN THE DAY -- YOU ARE PUTTING SOMEONE ELSE IN?

AND I THINK MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG IS A REALLY GREAT EXAMPLE OF HOW THIS IS BACKFIRING, AS LINDA MENTIONED.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK ANYONE IS SAYING THAT HE IS NECESSARILY LOOKING FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT QUALIFIED, BUT I DO THINK THE IDEA OF TOKENISM IS THERE AND I DO THINK THE IDEA OF PUTTING PEOPLE FORWARD BASED ON GENDER AND RACE IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK WE MOVED FORWARD AS A COUNTRY FROM.

>> Bonnie: ERIN, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> Erin Matsen: BONNIE, I'VE BEEN READING IN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, WHICH IS A CONSERVATIVE PUBLICATION, ALL WEEK ABOUT NASDAQ, CREATING QUOTAS AND STARTING TO PUT PRESSURE ON COMPANIES TO UP WOMEN ON THE BOARDS OF DIRECTORS.

I THINK THE DEMOCRATIC BIG BASE AND I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE CAN HANDLE A CABINET THAT LOOKS MORE LIKE AMERICA.

I ECHO THE DELEGATE IN SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, BIDEN HAS A DEBT TO REPAY, PARTICULARLY TO BLACK WOMEN WHO TURNED OUT FOR HIM IN RECORD NUMBERS.

I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE HIM LEAN FURTHER INTO HIS CABINET, AS HE DID ON THE NIGHT OF HIS ACCEPTANCE SPEECH IN VICTORY SPEECH WHERE HE HAD VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT HARRIS GO OUT FIRST IN WHITE WITH A MUCH MORE ROBUST SPEECH.

THAT WAS AN ELECTRIFYING MODEL OF WHITE MALE ALLIES SHIP AND IT'S TIME FOR HIM TO STEP UP AND DO SOME MORE ON THE CABINET.

>> Bonnie: RIGHT.

BUT THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION.

MY QUESTION IS, DOES IT -- HE IS ALSO TRYING TO UNITE THE COUNTRY.

DOES IT, DO YOU BELIEVE, ALIENATE FURTHER THE LARGELY WHITE 74 MILLION VOTERS WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP?

>> Erin Matsen: YOU KNOW, BONNIE, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT'S THE CASE.

I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO PUT PEOPLE IN PLACE WHO REFLECT AMERICA, AND I DON'T THINK THAT THE ANSWER TO CONCERN ABOUT BIGOTRY WITHIN THE WHITE COMMUNITY IS THE RESPONSE TO THAT, IS TO JUST PUT MORE WHITE PEOPLE IN THE CABINET.

I THINK WE GOT ABOUT FORWARD AS A COUNTRY.

AS2020.

WE'VE BEEN THROUGH BRUISING FOR YEARS OF WHITE SUPREMACY, WHITE SUPREMACISTS MARCHING THROUGH AMERICA.

IT'S TIME FOR SOMETHING NEW.

>> Patrice: CAN I SAY, BONNIE, I WORRY ABOUT CATEGORIZING OR CHARACTERIZING, SORRY, OPPOSITION TO WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO DO FOR WHITE PEOPLE IS BIGOTRY.

AND I THINK THAT'S A DISSERVICE THAT'S DONE TO TRUMP SUPPORTERS ALL THE TIMELL OUT IN THE WORDS OF HILLARY CLINTON, THEY ARE A BASKETFUL OF DEPLORABLE'S AND A BIT OF SORT OF PHOBIC, RACIST, MISOGYNISTIC, ETC.

AND I THINK THAT IS KIND OF WHAT A LOT OF FROM SUPPORTERS AND CONSERVATIVES HAVE FELT THAT THEY'VE BEEN LOOKED DOWN UPON FOR THINKING, OH, IT'S NOT SO MUCH THE RAISE OF THE GENDER, IT'S THE POLICIES THAT THEY WERE ABOUT.

CULTURAL POLICIES AS WELL AS ECONOMIC AND -- AND EVERY OTHER TYPE OF POLICY.

SO LET'S BE CAREFUL ABOUT CALLING ALL WHITE TRUMP SUPPORTERS BIGOTS.

>> Bonnie: I'M NOT SURE I CALLED THEM BIGOTS.

I SAID WHAT I DO BELIEVE IS THAT SOME OF THEM ARE -- EVEN PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE RIOT INSURANCE VILLE.

, MAKING UP -- I'M NOT THE FIRST WANT TO SAY THAT SOME OF THESE PEOPLE AT LEAST MAYBE, MAYBE BIGOTED.

I MEAN, COME ON.

SO WE SAW INSTANCES OF THAT.

BUT -- BUT MY QUESTION IS, WILL THEY BE TURNED OFF TO BIDEN, WHO HAS PROMISED TO UNITE THE COUNTRY, IF HE DOES THIS?

AND IT'S NOT JUST THAT HE'S MAKING HIS APPOINTMENTS, HE IS STATING.

I MEAN, HE STATED BEFORE HE SELECTED HER THAT HE WOULD PICK A FEMALE VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE.

HE STATED THAT HE WILL APPOINT THE MOST DIVERSE CABINET IN AMERICAN HISTORY, EVEN THOUGH HE WORKED FOR THE PRESIDENT WHO DID A.

THE MOST DIVERSE CABINET SO FAR IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

THESE ARE NOT ISSUES HE IS AVOIDING.

>> Linda Chavez: IF I COULD JUST SAY, BONNIE, I THINK YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT WHAT PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN NEEDS TO DO ONCE HE TAKES OFFICE AND BECOMES PRESIDENT IS TO UNITE THE COUNTRY, AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE, GIVEN THE TRUMP FOLLOWERS WHO ARE BEING LED TO BELIEVE NOT JUST BY THE PRESIDENT, BUT BY PEOPLE WITH -- WITHIN THE PARTY THAT SOMEHOW THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN, SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS A DISGRACEFUL, ANTIDEMOCRATIC RHETORIC.

BUT I DO THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR HIM TO REACH ACROSS THE AISLE.

I FRANKLY THINK HE WOULD BE WELL ADVISED TO APPOINT A REPUBLICAN TO HIS CABINET.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT OTHER PRESIDENTS HAVE DONE WHEN IT SOMEONE FROM MONDAY OF OPPOSITE PARTY.

AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE AN IMPORTANT SIGNAL TO TRY TO BRING THE COUNTRY TOGETHER.

>> Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton: I THINK THAT DEMOCRATS OFTEN DO THAT.

AND I EXPECT THAT TO HAPPEN.

BUT I DO WANT TO SAY THIS: I GIVE TRUMP SUPPORTERS MORE CREDIT THAN BELIEVING THAT THEY ARE TURNED OFF BY THE DIVERSITY OF BIDEN'S CABINET.

I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT IS WHERE THEY WOULD HAVE AN ISSUE WITH BIDEN.

THERE ISSUE WILL BE WITH THESE PEOPLE CARRYING OUT BIDEN'S POLICIES.

SO I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD -- SHOULD HOP ON TRUMP SUPPORTERS, BECAUSE I HAVE NOT HEARD THEM SPEAK OUT AGAINST THIS DIVERSITY.

I THINK WE HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THEY SPEAK OUT AGAINST SPECIFIC CABINET MEMBERS.

AND THEY ARE, I THINK THEY WILL FOCUS IN ON WHERE THEY ARE ON POLICIES, AS WITH THE NEW SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

>> Bonnie: WHAT OTHER POSTS ARE YOU LOOKING TO SEE PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN APPOINT -- >> Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton: WELL, THEY'RE NOT A LOT OF -- >> Bonnie: -- BLACK WOMEN TO?

>> Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton: YEAH.

THERE ARE A LOT OF CABINET POSTS TO BE FILLED.

I HAD A LIST OF CABINET POSTS, AND IT REALLY IS A LONG LIST HERE.

LOOK.

WE'VE GOT HUD.

THERE IS IN CONGRESS HE WANTS TO BE HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

THERE'S THE COMMERCE DEPARTMENT.

THAT'S AN AREA WHERE I HAVE NOT SEEN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN.

THERE IS THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY.

WE GOT HUD, BUT YOU SEE THERE ARE A LOT OF CABINET -- CABINET POSTS -- I WAS TRYING TO THINK OF SOME OTHERS -- DON'T HAVE AN ATTORNEY GENERAL YET.

WHEN THAT BE TERRIFIC TO GO TO AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMAN?

AND THERE ARE LOTS OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN WHO HAVE GONE TO LAW SCHOOL AND OBTAINED IMPORTANT POSTS.

>> Bonnie: YOURSELF INCLUDED, WE MIGHT ADD.

>> Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton: YOU SAID WHAT?

>> Bonnie: YOURSELF INCLUDED, WE MIGHT ADD.

[LAUGHTER] >> Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton: AND OF COURSE THIS, I DON'T THINK IS NAMED ANYONE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, WHICH IS ANOTHER CABINET POST.

SO I THINK HE'S GOT PLENTY OF PICS LEFT, IF WE ARE TALKING CABINET PICS.

>> Linda Chavez: I'M NOT SO FOCUSED ON THE GENDER OR THE RACE.

I DO THINK THAT THERE ARE SOME IMPORTANT JOBS TO FILL.

THE INTERIOR IS ANOTHER ONE.

AS A WESTERNER, SOMEBODY WHO HAILS FROM THE WESTERN PART OF THE UNITED STATES, THAT'S AN IMPORTANT JOB.

AND MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, GOVERNOR OF NEW MEXICO, WAS MENTIONED.

SHE APPARENTLY WAS NOT INTERESTED IN THAT.

BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF JOBS LEFT TO BE FILLED.

I HOPE THEY ARE FILLED WITH THE BEST PEOPLE POSSIBLE AND THAT INCLUDES WOMEN AND THAT INCLUDES BLACKS AND HISPANICS, BUT IT ALSO INCLUDES SOME WHITE MEN.

AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE AT LEAST ONE REPUBLICAN APPOINTED TO THIS CABINET.

>> Erin Matsen: I DON'T THINK PARTICULARLY WHEN HE'S PUT SO MUCH EMPHASIS ON TRYING TO UNIFY THE COUNTRY, I DON'T THINK IT'S OUT OF THE PICTURE TO CONSIDER THAT HE MIGHT CHOOSE A REPUBLICAN.

I WILL SAY, HOWEVER, THAT HE WILL RUN INTO A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH HIS BASE IF HE CHOOSES SOMEONE, PARTICULARLY SOMEONE WHO IS EXTREMELY CONSERVATIVE AND HARSH ON WHAT ARE CALLED SOCIAL ISSUES.

BUT IT'S ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT JUSTICE, PARTICULARLY SOMEONE WHO'S ANTIABORTION.

I THINK HE WOULD'VE HELL TO PAY IF HE WENT THAT ROUTE.

>> Bonnie: YOUR THOUGHTS, PATRICE?

DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY REPUBLICANS, SITTING SENATOR WHO MIGHT ACCEPT THE JOB OF, FOR EXAMPLE, COMMERCE SECRETARY WHERE THERE ARE NOT SO MANY SOCIAL ISSUES THAT COME UP?

>> Patrice: NO.

FROM A POLICY STANDPOINT, IF CONSERVATIVES REALLY DO SUPPORT AT LEAST KEEPING THE 2017-2018 TAX CUTS INTACT, IF THEY REALLY HAVE ABIDED BY -- WOULD WANT TO ABIDE BY OUR STOCK -- BIDEN'S PLANS, ECONOMIC PLANS, AND THERE'S NO WAY THEY WOULD TAKE IN OPPOSED TO, FRANKLY, PROMOTE THAT.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

WE ARE GOING TO TURN NOW TO A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TOPIC, WHICH IS I INTERVIEWED JOURNALIST LYZ LENTZ WHO WROTE AN OP-ED FOR THE WASHINGTON POST THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS FOR SAYING THAT DEMOCRATS SHOULD BASICALLY GIVE UP ON WHITE WOMEN.

HERE'S WHAT SHE SAID.

>> Bonnie: YOU SAID THAT DEMOCRATS SHOULD PRETTY MUCH DROPPED THE IDEA OF GOING AFTER WHITE WOMEN VOTERS BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT WON THAT CATEGORY OF VOTERS IN DECADES, AND YOU DON'T SEEM TO THINK THEY EVER WILL.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> Lyz Lentz: I THINK WE NEED TO BE MORE CRITICAL IN OUR UNDERSTANDING OF POLITICS AND OUR UNDERSTANDING OF PEOPLE AND THAT, YOU KNOW, WE UNDERSTAND THAT WHITE WOMEN, ESPECIALLY WHITE WOMEN OF POWER AND UPPER MIDDLE-CLASS WHITE WOMEN, ARE NOT IDENTIFYING WITH THEIR GENDER WHEN THEY GO IN TO THE VOTING BOOTH.

THEY ARE IDENTIFYING WITH POWER, WITH MONEY, AND RACE.

AND I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR PARTY'S -- DEMOCRATS' WHITEY'S EFFORTS ARE BETTER SUITED TO LOOKING AT WHO FORMS THE BASIS OF THIS PARTY WHO IS REALLY THE MOST RELIABLE DEMOCRATIC VOTER.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

SO HOW DO YOU -- IF THE DEMOCRATS WERE TO SAY DROPPED WHITE WOMEN AS A TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC, HOW WOULD THAT WORK?

AND LET ME ALSO SAY THAT IT IS CORRECT THAT WHITE WOMEN, IF YOU DON'T DIVIDE THEM UP, WHITE MARRIED WOMEN HAVE VOTED REPUBLICAN, FOR THE LASTS, GOD KNOWS, BACK TO RAEGAN, ALMOST, PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS 40 YEARS AGO.

BUT WHITE SINGLE WOMEN, WHO ARE BY DEFINITION LESS WEALTHY AS A GROUP, BUT WITH MINORITY -- WITH WOMEN OF COLOR.

AND IT REALLY SEEMS TO HAVE MORE TO DO TO ME AS SOMEONE WHO FOLLOWED THE ISSUE FOR 40 YEARS OR MORE, TO DO WITH ECONOMICS THAN IT DOES -- BANDITS MORE FREQUENTLY POINTED OUT IN THE MEDIA.

>> Lyz Lentz: ONCE AGAIN, THE ISSUE IS NOT WHY WE SHOULD PANDER TO WHITE WOMEN.

THE ISSUE SHOULD BE, WHO IS THE ACTUAL BASE OF THIS PARTY?

AND WHAT -- YOU SHOULD WE BE SERVING?

YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD STOP TRYING TO APPEAL TO THIS DEMOGRAPHIC BEFORE NEVER GOING TO WIN THEM OVER, AND WE SHOULD LOOK AT WHO WE SHOULD BE APPEALING TO.

WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT HEALTHCARE, RIGHT?

WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT CHILDCARE.

WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE MINIMUM WAGE.

AND INSTEAD OF THIS KIND OF LIKE MIDDLE-OF-THE-ROAD CENTRISM ON THE FACES FAMOUS TEXAS COLONISTS, YOU KNOW, SAID THE ONLY THING THAT BELONGS IN THE MIDDLE-OF-THE-ROAD ARE LINES AND ROADKILL, AND THAT THE BASIS OF OUR PARTY, STOP TRYING TO WIN OVER LOST CAUSES, AND REALLY START GETTING FIRED UP ABOUT HOW WE CAN ENACT CHANGE IN, FRANKLY, A BROKEN COUNTRY.

>> Bonnie: DO YOU AGREE THAT THIS IS A DEMOGRAPHIC WHITE WOMEN OR AT A MORE SPECIFICALLY, AND WE WILL GET INTO IN A MINUTE, WHITE MARRIED WOMEN, GROUP THAT THE DEMOCRATS SHOULD GIVE UP ON?

>> Lyz Lentz: I DON'T THINK DEMOCRATS SHOULD GIVE UP ON ANYBODY, SO WANT TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT, FIRST AND FOREMOST.

BUT WE SAW -- I WANT TO ADD SOME NUANCE TO THIS PICTURE.

WHAT WE SAW WITH BIDEN, WE ACTUALLY HAD WHITE COLLEGE-EDUCATED WOMEN IN THE SUBURBS, WENT FOR HIM IN A GREATER PERCENTAGE.

THERE WERE GAINING POINTS VERSUS HILLARY CLINTON.

AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO DO AND CONTINUE THAT MOMENTUM.

AND ALSO, FOR THAT MATTER, I'M REALLY SICK AND TIRED OF THIS IDEA OF GIVING UP ON THE WHITE WORKING CLASS AND UNDEREDUCATED VOTERS, AS TRUONG CALLED THEM, AND HE WOULD SAY I LOVE UNDEREDUCATED VOTERS AND KIND OF -- >> Bonnie: I THINK HE SAID LESS EDUCATED VOTERS, BUT SAME IDEA.

>> Lyz Lentz: POORLY EDUCATED.

WHATEVER HE SAID, A HORRIBLE STATEMENT TO MAKE.

AND I THINK THE FACT THAT WE NEED TO EMBRACE EVERYONE IN OUR TENT AND TO SEND THEM A COMPREHENSIVE MESSAGE OF EQUALITY AND JUSTICE AND LIBERATION FOR ALL PEOPLE, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS GIVING UP ON WHITE WOMEN IS A BAD IDEA.

DEMOCRATS HAVE SOME MOMENTUM, PARTICULARLY WITH COLLEGE-EDUCATED WOMEN.

THEY GOT TO BUILD ON IT.>> Bonnie: YOUR THOUGHTS, LINDA?

>> Linda Chavez: WELL, I ABSOLUTELY -- AGAIN, IT ONLY APPEALS THAT ARE JUST BASED ON RACE.

I DON'T THINK THAT THAT IS WHAT MATTERS AND I DO THINK THAT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS ABOUT VOTERS THAT ARE MORE IMPORTANT AND I THINK FOCUSING ON WHITE VOTERS, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE A LOT OF LOWER MIDDLE-CLASS WHITES WHO VOTED FOR BARACK OBAMA.

IN THE IDEA THAT YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO SEE WORKING-CLASS WHITES VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT WHEN THEY VOTED FOR ONE OF THE MORE LIBERAL DEMOCRATS THAT WE'VE ELECTED IN RECENT MEMORY.

SO I REALLY THINK THAT WOULD BE A MISTAKE.

AND WITH RESPECT TO WOMEN, YES, THERE ARE DIVISIONS.

WHAT'S BEEN INTERESTING TO ME IS LOOKING AT THE MINORITY VOTE AND LOOKING AT THE FACT THAT PROMPTED BETTER WITH BLACK MEN THAN HE DID LAST TIME AROUND, IN FACT THAN MOST REPUBLICANS DO.

AND HE DID MUCH BETTER WITH HISPANIC MEN.

NOT AS WELL AS PRESIDENT REAGAN OR GEORGE W. BUSH, BUT HE STILL GOT CLOSE TO 30 PERCENT OF THE HISPANIC VOTE.

AND IN SOME AREAS, HE WON A MAJORITY OF THE VOTE IN CERTAIN COUNTIES, IN CERTAIN PRESENTS IN FLORIDA AND SOUTH TEXAS.

SO THAT TO ME IS IN SOME WAY MORE INTERESTING.

>> Bonnie: CONGRESSWOMAN, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton: YEAH.

I'M SHOCKED BY THAT, REALLY, WHEN YOU CONSIDER HOW, HOW HIS POLICIES HAVE BEEN ON THEIR FACE OFFENSIVE AGAINST THESE GROUPS.

BUT I THINK WOMEN ARE PROBABLY THE COUNTRY'S MOST THOUGHTFUL VOTERS, WHITE WOMEN AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN.

AND THIS NOTION THAT WHITE WOMEN VOTED OVERWHELMINGLY FOR TRUMP HAS BEEN SHOWN TO BE FALSE.

IT TURNS OUT THAT 47 PERCENT, NOT 53 PERCENT, VOTED FOR TRUMP.

SO I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD STEREOTYPE WHITE WOMEN ANY MORE THAN WE STEREOTYPE AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN.

>> Bonnie: I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO MAKE A FURTHER SUBDIVISION OF THIS DEMOGRAPHIC GROUP, AND THEN I WILL ASK YOU TO WEIGH IN, PLEASE, PATRICE, BUT ACTUALLY WHITE MARRIED WOMEN, SINCE RAEGAN -- AND OF COURSE, WHEN YOU'RE MARRIED, YOU HAVE A BIGGER HOUSEHOLD INCOME ON AVERAGE MAN WHEN YOU'RE SINGLE MOTHER -- BUT WHITE MARRIED WOMEN HAVE GONE FOR THE REPUBLICAN FOR PRESIDENT SINCE RAEGAN IN 1980.

BUT WHITE SINGLE WOMEN AND SINGLE MOTHERS WHO ARE, OF COURSE, MORE -- TO ME, IT'S MORE OF AN ECONOMIC DIFFERENCE THAN IT IS A RACIAL DIFFERENCE, BECAUSE IT'S LOWER INCOME WOMEN GENERALLY WILL VOTE DEMOCRATIC PART FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS LOGICAL.

THEY ARE MORE RELIANT ON THE BENEFITS THAT DEMOCRATS SUPPORT FOR THEM.

>> Patrice: I AGREE WITH YOU THERE, BONNIE.

I MEAN, I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT MARRIED WOMEN IN THEIR THINKING ABOUT FAMILY, AND THEY ARE THINKING WHETHER THEY WANT GREATER GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION, GREATER GOVERNMENT CONTROL OR LESS, IN WHICH CASE, YOU KNOW, POLICIES LIKE TAX CUTS THAT BENEFIT MIDDLE-CLASS FAMILIES ARE GOING TO BE IMPORTANT TO THEM.

DEREGULATION, YOU KNOW, SMALL BUSINESS -- POLICIES THAT SPUR SMALL BUSINESS GROUPS TO THE POINT WHERE, YOU KNOW, WOMEN WERE STARTING 1800 JOBS EVERY DAY FROM 2017 AND 28, SPEAKS TO THAT.

SO I THINK -- WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT WHITE WOMEN, WHITE MARRIED WOMEN, IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT THEY STILL TEND TO LEAN MORE CONSERVATIVE.

AND I HOPE WE DO GET AWAY FROM THIS RHETORIC.

I SEE A LOT FROM A BLACK FEMALE FRIENDS WERE LIKE, WHY WOMEN NEED TO SIT DOWN AND BE SILENCE AND TAKE A BACKSEAT, I THINK WE SHOULD BE TREATING -- WE SHOULD BE LISTENING TO EACH OTHER IN UNDERSTANDING EACH OTHER'S TICKET SITUATIONS AND THE POLITICAL CALCULATIONS PEOPLE MAKE WHEN THEY GO TO VOTE, NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, THINKING, WELL, BECAUSE YOU VOTED -- HE SUPPORTED TRUMP, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU, CALLING YOU ANYMORE, OR EVEN LOOKING DOWN ON YOU IN A WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT SHOULD BE THE CASE.

I THINK THIS ELITISM, UNFORTUNATELY WE SEE QUITE OFTEN ON THE LEFT, IS PROBABLY WHAT DROVE A LOT OF REPUBLICAN CONSERVATIVE WOMEN OR EVEN INDEPENDENT WOMEN TO VOTE FOR TRUMP BUT TO SAY IN THE POLLS OR TO SAY THEIR FRIENDS, NO, I'M ABOUT AND SUPPORTER.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

GREAT DISCUSSION.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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