Ok, real quick, what race or ethnicity am I giving you?

Right?

Take a deep hard look.

Un poco, that's a little too deep.

But I've got bushy cejas, I've got a kind of full stash.

I've got a buzz cut.

Dark brown eyes and a cross necklace.

So what's your guess?

Indian, maybe Middle Eastern.

I've gotten both.

But if your immediate take is, dude, that guy straight up Latino, why?

Is it my face, my skin tone?

Who else would you use as an example alongside me?

Because intentionally or not, we all make snap judgments about people's race or ethnicity upon seeing them.

And I'm pairing race and ethnicity together a lot like these government forms that now ask, Hey, Hispanic or Latino?

But that's a huge category that the United States has created that now wants to put me, who's Mexican American, alongside somebody who has a background, say that's Argentinian or Cuban.

People who've been studying race, specifically race, have said forever that this is all made up guys.

It is all a social construct.

There is no singular Latino identity or image.

And then there's people who will say, well, if they speak Spanish and have ties to the Americas, then of course they're Latino.

And then you have people who will say, they're brown, so they're Mexican, but it's not the time or the place.

But when there's 65 million Latinos living in the US, we can't all be Mexican or brown or Spanish speakers.

So who are we?

I'm Xorje Olivares.

And on today's very first episode of Hyphenación, I want to ask the question, who gets to be Latino?

And who decides who's Latino?

This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meets.

Now if you clocked me and you said, now that dude is also Mexican American.

Good because I'm f*ing proud of that.

I'm proud of being Mexican.

I'm proud of where I'm from, which is South Texas.

And if I have to admit, the thing that's most, most South Texas about me is I am a flour tortilla guy.

I am team flour tortilla all the way, which I know is gonna piss off a lot of people, but whatevs.

And on today's show, I'm excited because each of our guests also comes from a Latino hotspot.

Like my first guest who is actor performer, Ian Paget, who is the co-host of Tres Leches podcast.

He spent a lot of his time in Miami.

So I wanna ask Ian one, Ian, thank you so much for joining us today.

And two, what is the most Miami thing about you?

- Ooh, well, last night it was my accent because if - When did, when did she come out?

- Well, you know, it's funny, like technically it's specifically, I'll give it to you.

Hello?

How, oh my God, how are you?

That was happening a lot yesterday.

Like just because I was, I was with my best friend Juan, and then Johnny and like we're all from Miami and then my friend Rafa was there too.

And like, there's just this like way that all of a sudden the Ls kind of turn a little bit like that, which is crazy.

But I don't, you know, so that's like a specific thing that happened when I am around other people who make me feel like home, you know, it, it brings out a, a home in me.

But my most Miami thing is, oh my God, I'm not really most of anything.

'cause I'm such a hodgepodge.

I'm such a mixture of like, so many things.

Like I was, you know, from the UK and this and that, blah, blah, blah.

But I guess like the most Miami thing about me would be like my love of Cafecito.

Like I love cafe.

It's like when I go back to Miami, I'm like, hi mom.

Hi dad.

I'm going to the coffee shop.

You know what I mean?

And like, - Nice to see you.

- Yeah.

- Priorities, - You guys are here, but you're here to get me there, you know what I mean?

So I'd say it would be like, my love of of cafe would be the most Miami thing about me.

- Okay.

We'll hold space for that.

- Thank you.

- Also wanna welcome poet and writer Maria Burgos, who was born and raised in the Washington Heights neighborhood of New York City, which we all have in common.

We have since learned.

Maria, what would you say is the most New York thing about you?

- Wow.

I would say just me talking very fast in both Spanish and English.

It's like, you ask me something and I'm like, what do you need?

What do you want?

No, I got you.

And sometimes you'll get Spanglish and if you get it, you get it.

If you don't, then you know, context clues, Duolingo.

Right?

- Period.

It'll all work out with the facial expressions, with the, with movements.

All of hands.

Yes.

It's language all in and of itself.

Yes.

Well, I wanna thank you both for joining me today.

And I wanna start by asking this question of how we each identify culturally.

Because for me, if you go to my Instagram bio and pretty much every bio I'll say puro Tejano because yes, I'm Mexican American, but it's so specific to Texas and like nineties Texas.

So I would be wearing the Selena purple jumpsuit right now if I could.

Yeah.

Because that's how deep I am in it.

- Yeah.

- So Maria, if you could say how you identify culturally, what would it be - Culturally?

I would say Afro-Latina.

And if you wanna get specific, if people need a visual, I would say, un Mangú con los tres golpes.

Just like that.

- Work - With the fried cheese, the eggs, the whole thing, the onions on top.

That is me.

That's what you're gonna get.

- Wait, what was it called?

Un mangú?

Is that what you said?

- Yes, con tres golpes.

Tres golpes is the meal when you go to a Dominican-style you'll order Tres golpe and you'll get the fried eggs, cheese, and salami.

And then you make sure you have the onions on top.

So it's filling.

You get a little bit of everything, you'll feel productive after and strong.

- I Love that we both said a beverage and food, by the way.

Like our, like our, our first opening things were like the - The love language of the Latino people is food and drink.

You said Cafecito - And I'm like, yes, cafecito.

Immediately, no matter what - Really is, - Wherever I am, you need a nice cup of coffee for sure.

- Yeah.

That's so funny.

- Okay.

And Ian, what would you say for you for, if your identification culturally, what would it be?

- Ooh, I was gonna, I was gonna guess.

Sorry.

No, so funny enough with like your intro and what we're, what we're discussing today, it's like, I actually think a lot of people don't even think I'm Latino.

Right.

But I'm half Honduran, so my mom is from Honduras, and then my dad's, he's, you know, his parents were German, so yeah.

And, and then being raised in Miami from like 11 and on, you know, it's like that, that is a big part of my, you know, upbringing and culture or whatever.

But yeah, I'm half Honduran.

- Nice.

- Wow.

Yeah, - I I love that.

I mean, yes, Maria, you did use Afro-Latina.

- Yeah.

- But for the most part, we didn't immediately say just the, the alone word of Latino, - Right?

- Because that word really does become this umbrella term that wants to encompass everybody and anybody that might have some similarities.

And there's also this phrasing of the Latino community, which the community part sometimes upsets people.

But I wanna ask you, Ian, about even the language of Latino community.

Does it make you feel any certain way, like happiness, joy, upset?

- It's funny, I've never, I've never had to maybe more like, like in these last couple, excuse me, in these last couple years, had to like, own my Latinidad more than in the last like, couple years, really?

Because everything is like, well, what are you, who are, you know, there, there's, and then if you're in media, it's just helpful.

People want to know and like, it, you know, it's it, anyway.

But I bring this up because I think like growing up I was just like me and I had like my mom.

And when you're in Miami, you don't really, you don't really have to say you are part of the Latino community or like, I, I don't have to wear the badge of that.

It just like was so all around me, Jewish Cubans, like, like everyone was around.

But that's also specific to my upbringing.

And Maria would say the same for you, I'm guessing.

Absolutely.

If you're behind, like it's just, - Yeah, - I don't know.

You're just like, yeah, this is who we are.

And I think when you step into other spaces, again, the, you know, if, if someone's saying that, like, then it makes it feel like, oh, you're, you're kind of putting us in a pen in a way is maybe what I could, and that's me, that's me really.

Like, you know, I'm gilding that Lily a little bit, but I, I guess like that would be my response to that, you know?

- I mean, that's such a good point because like I mentioned, we're each from these Latino hotspots.

Like I'm from the border, so 99% of the people around me were also Mexican and also look like me.

And we've alluded to it a little bit, but in the Washington Heights, it's very much, it's hugely Dominican.

- Yes.

- Most of the people there are speaking Spanish or a variation of Spanish.

So when it's not until you are placed in a different environment where you realize, oh shit, like not only am I different, but I'm so different that there's another word for me.

Mm.

Yeah.

- So - I'm wondering for you, Maria, about this other word, this Latino word.

Do you feel Latino without being Afro-Latino?

If that - 100% I do.

Okay.

I grew up in a very Dominican household.

Again, I grew up in Washington Heights, so like, salsa is my favorite genre.

I grew up listening to that bachata, there's always liveliness, waking up at 7:00 AM and hearing your neighbors like still bla blasting bachata to get their day started.

Like, it was very Dominican.

I went to school nearby, like elementary and junior high was close by.

And then when I went to high school I was like, oh, like, I'm like loud and being myself, but like other people are like, well what, why is she speaking Spanish?

Why I'm confused.

Like, I wanna know more about her.

Is is she Latina?

And it's just interesting, like to come out of your space and realize like, oh, I may have to explain.

Sometimes I choose not to just because we should, you know, accept people for who they are, accept that we come from different walks of lives.

Like Ian, he, he grew up in Miami, but you're, you're half Honduran and your father has German descent.

So like, you know, this is what a lot of us are in the US we're just mixed up with a whole bunch of different things.

Right.

So I sometimes find myself being like you know what, receive me how you wanna receive me.

But I do understand like, oh, even for myself, just identity in general, like, okay, I am different.

I've been in my own community for so long seeing similar faces just with me seeing people that look like Ian who are Dominican too, and just being like, oh, it is what it is.

Latino, yes, no problem at all.

But then, - You know, yeah.

- Like no questions asked.

It's like, Whatever.

- Yeah, it's fine.

Yeah.

But then coming out of that space, it's like, oh, okay, I do need, maybe I do need to guide people a little bit.

I don't know, it's, I don't wanna say need because it, I feel like we shouldn't have to hold people's hands through this.

- Yeah, - Yeah.

- But - That whole knowledge of like, the oppressed shouldn't help the oppressor.

Exactly.

And that's very harsh language, but like what, what role do we have to try to educate somebody when it's our own identity and experience?

That's a stake here.

- And I think also kind of to what Maria was saying is like, how much of this plays into like, who I've decided to be?

Do you know what I mean?

And how I, how I present is just no, absolutely.

I don't know.

It's like a, it's a fascinating conversation.

- Ian, what would you say were, are some of the main things you get confused for?

Because I mentioned at the top, for me, it's Indian, middle Eastern, which nothing wrong with that.

I, I that those are some of the comparison points I get, but it just doesn't resonate with me.

- Yeah.

Right.

- So what are some of these that you've had to field over the years?

- I definitely get, I get a lot of European, so like, it's European specific.

Sometimes people are like, you know, are you Italian?

Are you, you know, Jewish is even, you know, in its own race, obviously, but like, I always get like a little bit of Spanish, like, oh, are you French?

Like, those are kind of where it sticks.

And then when I tell people I'm Honduran, if I get super specific, it always feels like they're like, oh, where?

Like that place.

You know what I mean?

It is a very random country.

Like, it's not Yeah.

It's not like Costa Rica, it's not Guatemala, it's not Venezuela.

Like, it, it is, it's kind of, it's kind of like a silent little country there in its way, you know?

- Right.

Yeah.

- Anyway, so yeah, I've, I've gotten like everything over the pond.

Mostly across the pond.

Excuse - Me.

And you Maria.

- Wow.

I've been called Ethiopian a lot.

That's a main thing.

They're like, oh, you have to be Ethiopian.

And I've had several Ethiopian people speak to me and they're dialect and I'm like, oh no, but thank you.

Yeah.

I'm like, I'm so flattered.

Sometimes just, you know, black American, some people are like, are you Puerto Rican?

Are you like, so many different little things.

And when some, usually it's question, when I start to speak Spanish, it's when like, everyone freezes and they're like, wow, your Spanish is so great.

Like, you have an accent and I'm sure Ian, you get the same thing and you're - Like, funny that you say that is mine is mine because I don't look Hispanic or Spanish.

Right.

People don't speak to me in Spanish.

Right.

So that is not usually the first thing that people notice.

Yeah.

This one's a gag.

People ask me like, where are you from with like, a little bit of like a squint in their eye when they see me dance.

- Ooh.

- Oh, that one you're like, - Like the caderas are moving!

- Correct.

I wish I was, I wish I could say like, I made that up.

And like, that's, it's literally what happens.

Like, I'll be out in spaces and the way I move and the way I dance, people are like, like, where are you from?

That's literally the question that sometimes happens.

- Right?

They're like, those hits do not lie.

Thanks.

That happened to me too, where they're like, wow, you, you dance.

And I'm like, I sure do, honey.

- You're like, put on some aventura, some Elivs Crespo, Celia Cruz, I’m here.

- Yeah.

Oh - My god, I'm here.

- Yes.

- I I'm curious about the distinction between somebody questioning you about who you are and somebody somehow telling you like, no, no, no, but where are you really from?

Because that's not a question that's somebody telling you to correct yourself to give them the answer they want.

Yes.

So Maria, has there been a moment where you're just like, somebody's telling me something that I do not want to hear anymore - Every day.

Unfortunately, still living in New York, I get it very often.

I remember for example, years ago working, I was working as a, I was doing a side job with like banquet serving, and I was talking to one of my colleagues in Spanish.

He was, I believe Mexican.

And we were just chatting back and forth.

And this man behind me who we were serving, he like waited for me to finish what I was doing.

And then was like, I'm so sorry, where are you from?

Because you speak Spanish so well.

And my wife is Argentinian.

And like, I mean, you know, sounds a little bit different and I'm not sure, but it was like accusatory, very much like, "did you go to school to learn Spanish so well," kind of.

And I said, I'm Dominican and I, granted the proper term is Dominican American, that my parents are Dominican.

But I like to be very proud and say I'm Dominican, and have people sit with that.

Sit, sit with that and like, hold onto that and figure it out.

And he was very like, taken aback that I was very firm and like, I'm Dominican.

And he's like, yeah, but what?

I'm like, I'm Dominican.

Is there anything else I could do for you?

And he was sort of just like, - I'm curious, like what he didn't believe.

Like what, what was the next question supposed to?

Like what about my answer wasn't pleasing?

Like, I'm genuinely curious, like what he was hoping to get like, right?

You know what I mean?

The idea in his head.

And anyway, that's, that's - Interesting.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

- Ian, what is the, the most recent moment where you had to force somebody to sit with your answer of like, not only am I Latino, I'm Honduran, Honduran American, just bye.

Like end of conversation, punto final, move on.

- Yeah, - Let's move on.

- It never feels like someone is trying to like to out me.

- have a gotcha moment.

- Yeah.

It, it, it, it doesn't.

And I, I think that's a little bit of my own, like, the way that I walk in the world, like a little bit of my d lulu ness of just like, like I, I, I'm really in, in charge of like my, my, my energy.

So like even if someone maybe was like, wait, so like, where are you from?

I take that as like he's really interested.

Oh.

Like, I don't know, I, I, to me it's just a conversation starter.

And, and so the, and then, then as I get to answer and tell them, then they're like super surprised, which I love.

'cause I'm a show off and I love to surprise people.

Like, like to me it just feeds my ego, you know what I mean?

Like it's, I take it and I, I take it and I absorb it in, in a way that feels very like, empowering, you know?

Especially because I think it just like surprises them and then they feel like they go, but I wonder, I wonder, this is an interesting conversation.

If, if I was in their head, I wonder if they're like, oh my God, that's so cool.

I'm literally making something up right now.

But this is fun to do.

Hypothetical.

But I wonder if they're like, oh my God, that's great because I'm, I, I'm white passing.

And to them they're like, oh, you're white passing, so look at my God, that's amazing.

You're, but you're Hispanic.

And I'm like, yeah, they never say that.

But you know, they, they're like, oh, that's so it's cool about you.

I wonder, I wonder if that's like a thing or whatever.

Yeah.

I, I'm, again building, - It's a, if it's a fun form of the flavor where you get to experience other Latin that with all of the like, weird baggage that comes with color.

Yeah, - Yeah, yeah.

- Like something that, that I have dealt with my entire life, especially leaving my hometown of Eagle Pass, Texas is oh, this dude's brown can't really hide.

In Mexican saying, it’s like el nopal en la frente, where you have the cactus so big on your forehead, you can't hide that you're Mexican.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- I know that my nopal is quite big and I've, I've found navigating that my entire life very interesting.

And just like knowing the clues that you give off and at some point being appreciative of those clues because they can be kind of fun.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, I, it just hit me, one of the other things that I think is the most obvious thing about me is my queerness is like that I'm gay.

It's just always been, I think maybe that's another reason why my latinidad has never been a thing that like, obviously white passing, blah, blah, blah, but the most obvious thing about me is like, that's a gay person.

I've just never really been able to hide it.

Or like, I, I, I, I wasn't able to be, I wasn't that person in high school who like got to say I was straight and people bought it.

And like, you know, I, I had, I, it just wasn't like that for me.

I was always kind of like authentically me in a great way.

I went to performing arts high school that like allowed that to be, and I had friends around me who I, who I felt supported by.

So I think that's always, that has been the first thing that is sort of like the, the, that's like my color.

My color is my gayness.

You know what I mean?

- So I wanna get a little bit deeper into this notion of Latin that and others' perception of our identity.

And I'm gonna do so by sharing this story real quick.

So when I was a freshman in high school, my band took a trip to Disney World from f*cking south Texas.

We took a charter bus all the way to Orlando, which I don't suggest.

- How long was that ride?

- Girl.

It was a day and a half f*cking baby wipes the entire time.

What we had to, we had to do what we needed to survive.

We were poor border kids.

We couldn't fly.

Oh.

We had to pay for a charter bus.

And so if that wasn't bad enough, after having been on a charter bus for a day and a half, we arrive at the happiest place on Earth and we are in line for the Dumbo ride.

And I was the designated leader for some reason.

And so we're in line and the attendant asks like, Hey, how many people are in your team so we can like, set all up together?

And me trying to be a good leader, I turn around starting to count people, but I think he mistook what I was doing.

So he said, oh, Quantas personas grupo.

- Oh my God.

-And the fact that this... - Ayayay.

- And, and the fact that this happened 20 plus years ago, and it's still not haunts me, but like it still is front of mind for me to remember.

- Yeah.

- Says that how people receive us is really critical.

- Yeah.

- So I'm curious for you, Maria, if you have a moment, like a standout moment for you where someone was like, this is who I think, or this is my assumption of you right off the bat.

- Yes.

This one's very interesting.

So we talked, we touched a little bit about colorism in Latinidad and even presenting.

So for the longest, you know, my, I wore my hair straight and I had a certain aesthetic to me just because of course, in a lot of Hispanic households, you feel like you have to present a certain way to be known as Latina or Latino.

But then I went through a transition where I went natural and this is my hair now.

And I moved back into my childhood apartment because rent control in New York, I mean.

- Smart about it.

- A lot of my neighbors that saw me grow up, they would always speak to me in Spanish.

They knew, they know me, they know my mom, you know, they know my family.

So they always spoke to me in Spanish.

And my neighbor who hadn't seen me in a while and saw a change was spoke speaking to me in, in English as if like he was meeting me for the first time.

So he was like, oh, eh, how are you?

Eh, how are you my friend Maria, you, you look good.

And I was like, ¿Cómo está vecino?

And he was still like English.

And I was like, this is a very weird exchange.

Like you - Oh, so he continued in English even after you addressed him in Spanish?

- Yes.

So it was kind of like, okay, clearly you don't know how to receive me right now because I don't know, I guess the change - Interesting - Somehow, like made you feel like, okay, she's not Latina anymore.

- But that's so interesting that like you are straightening your.. Like that the straightening of the hair to me would be like whatever, it's, it's hiding more of your culture Right.

And who you are.

Right.

And then to go more to your naturalness and then for him to speak English, that feels a little backwards.

- Yeah.

- I'm, so, I'm, that's curious.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting, right?

You're like, you would think with the stray hair you would not, you'll be like, oh, she's not.

'cause I feel like I look way more Latina now , than ever but unfortunately in certain communities where the beauty standard is a certain, or they want it to be a certain thing, you know, that's why I mentioned colorism.

That's, it might even, I did grow up with a lot of girls that were lighter than me and had like the very long and the light eyes.

- Right.

- So I felt different, but not really because I also saw me in, in the community.

Right.

- But - When I made this change, I, when he, yeah, it was a very interesting moment.

I was standing there like, this is very uncomfortable.

Right.

But okay.

- And I think it's so interesting how many, like who exactly is okay with putting you in a, in an uncomfortable position, right?

And being okay to stand in this discomfort with you.

- Yes.

Yeah.

- And like no, no, there's there's a weird ownership that needs to be taken in that.

Yeah.

But Ian, do you have a similar situation where, especially in the line of work that you do where somebody clocked you or, or made you feel differently about how you actually are in the world?

- I mean that ha that it hasn't happened in that instance, like the way Maria just described.

But like, I would say it's happened in a, in a, in a way that like the work I get, so like I I, I bring this example up because it's like, it was, it was the first time I noticed it, but like I got to do West Side Story when I was right outta college and I was, and if you don't know the show, it's like sharks and jets, Puerto Ricans against the Americans.

And I was cast as one of the jets, the in, on the American side.

And one of the weirdest things about being in a show like that where it's about two gangs who are against each other and what, you know, like completely different culture this and that is like, when we would do dance at the gym, I, the whole time was like, I should be on that side with the Sharks.

And I bring this up because like, I think sometimes I, again, I, I love how I've experienced the world and, and all of that.

But like I have had a little bit of like a resentment towards like, you know, I don't know the ether around just like, oh, like, because my last name isn't Ramirez, which is would if I went with like my mom's maiden name, Ian Ramirez, I think would automatically change how people, like you said, receive me.

And, and so like, yeah.

It, it's, I think it's the opposite.

It's the, I wish I was seen more Latino than I am because yeah.

I, I don't know if that answers your question because, - And no, it does.

I will say that for a lot of us, this idea of what Latinidad that is and who is Latino is about media representation and the narratives that are there.

And unfortunately kind of going back to to, to the face and the name that I have, I remember when I was in college and I was studying broadcast journalism that all of my professors immediately when I was getting ready to go to to into the workforce, they said, so you're doing Telemundo, right?

You're doing Univision.

And I was like, my Spanish is not that great, but just the implication that if I was gonna be successful in this field, I was immediately gonna have to go to the Latino side of things.

So I'm curious, starting with you, Ian, about just when somebody does recognize that you are Latino, the more type casting aspect of it.

- I think that's why I'm really excited this bring this, to have these conversations is because I don't think there's enough story and storytelling being told of like the white passing Latino.

Like, or like that that it comes just the spectrum.

Yeah.

It's in general of it's just variation.

Yeah.

- There's so much like we don't look like one thing.

Yeah.

And accept that.

Accept it.

- Yeah.

And like, and that, because I don't have that last name, does that mean I don't get to tell my version of like, like Latin story, which is very much embedded in my, my life story.

You know what I mean?

It's, I just think like, I think those stories just need to start being made.

I need to make, I need to make them for myself.

You know what I mean?

Like, having these conversations is really huge.

Like the more I talk about it, I'm like, it, it really isn't apparent.

Like you need, if you don't have the last name, if it's not so obvious because people like to be spoonfed.

And I get it.

We just live in a world where it's like we label and it's easy.

Like who are you?

Tell me, I, you know what I'm talking about?

Like, you, we have to like see it.

You have to prove it to me, prove me the thing you are.

And it's like, - Right, - Okay, there.

But it's, it's deeper than that.

It's, it's not as, it's not as obvious as that on some of us, you know?

Anyway.

I don't, I don't know if I answered your question, but - No, you did.

And I, and I love that you, you talk about, it's about the stories that we make and the stories that we write.

And Maria, as a writer who incorporates a lot of your identity and what you do and in a lot of, into your performance, was that an easy decision from day one?

- Absolutely.

In a way, because I, again, growing up and getting older, I think Ian mentioned this, you get older and then that's when you notice that you are a little bit different 'cause you're a little outside of your community.

I was so tired of like, fighting people on my own identity.

And I wanna talk about that all the time.

And Ian is bringing up so many good points where like, what is a Latino to you?

Why are we, we're living, why do we have to live within the identity as someone made up for us?

Like in movies in novellas that my mom watches for the longest, I'm like, oh, are these white people like, you know, acting like Mexicans and, and it was actually Mexican, you know what I mean?

But I'm like, but I meet Mexicans and they look like a variation of different things.

I I meet South Americans, I meet Dominicans, I meet Puerto Ricans and I see a spectrum of different people.

So when I do get met with the question, or when I met, met with like, the scrutiny of like, are you sure?

I'm like, well what am I supposed to look like to you?

Because apparently have the definition in your dictionary of what, what I'm supposed to look like.

- Mm.

- And like, touching on a little bit of acting that I've done before, I always get met with like not looking Latina enough.

And to them it means the straight hair.

I have to be maybe a little light skinned.

I have to have certain features.

And to me that's confusing.

'cause I'm like, what?

I've, I'm again, I have met people, there are people in my family that look like Ian.

And to me, I immediately meet them and I'm not seeing - I need to meet them.

- Right.

I don't, Ian, Ian is my cousin.

- Oh my God.

- And he, he could really be my cousin.

- Oh my God.

What if this was like a, a find your roots type of situation.

- Right.

No kidding.

That's funny.

Yeah.

So in my work, I always want to be proud and I always just want to speak to the person that is trying to figure out what, like, you know, they don't feel Latino enough or they don't feel American enough or whatever it is.

It's like you are a hyphen and that is okay.

Yeah.

- Thank you for the callback to, to, it is, it's all about hyphenated identity.

- Yeah.

- We've been talking about present.

I do wanna talk about future and about what we think the evolution of Latino identity will look like and how it will feel.

And I'll say that I, I do like that right now there's a lot of plays on the word Latino, Latine, Latinx, and I just, for me, I'll say it's all about preference.

Whichever you prefer, whichever you like, no one is forcing a word on you.

It's just a matter of like, hi, see me and include me.

But how do you feel, Ian, about the, like, just the direction we're going when it comes to terminology and do you think there'll be another word that will eventually be used to bring us all together?

- That's a good question.

- It is a good question - because I won't lie a little bit of like an eye roll there for me is like, there are so many like all the terms, all the, the Latine, the Latinx and that, I'm just like, I had a hard time with that of just kind of understanding.

Maybe I didn't understand why it was started or formed in the first place, and that's my bad.

But like, at the end of the day, I don't like it.

It's, it's no skin off my back.

But I think if it's helping more sects, SECT Ss like version like, you know, groups in within our community to feel included, then like, fine, I get it.

You know what I mean?

But I get to comment on it, you know what I mean?

And be like, why are we, you know what I mean?

It's just, it's right.

It's like we're just trying to please so many people.

There's a little bit of that.

And like the comedian in me is also just like, there's so much jokes there, but all in all, it's inclusive and like, I think I just wish we had like one word.

It was just like, let's just have the one word to, to make it simple for everybody.

You know what I mean?

I don't know.

I, I get a little, like, can I say that?

Can I not about like, something that seemed so simple to me before.

But, you know, I'm, I don't know.

I'm, that's my experience.

- So.

So of all the, of all the words that have ever been used, Hispanic, Latino, Latine, Latinx, what insert whichever one that we've now heard, which is, which is the one that you think is the most appropriate for you?

- Ooh.

I think for me, well I used to say I'm Hispanic and then I, then I was taught like that, that necessarily that means a little bit more that you have like a Spanish heritage or that it had something to do with like, like Spain and slavery and all these things.

And I was like, okay.

I guess.

Yeah.

So I guess not that.

So I would just say like, I'm Latino, you know what I mean?

I'm like, that's it, it seems the easiest.

- Okay.

- Half Latino, you know?

- And for you, Maria, - Latina, Latina always, but I understand Latine, so I try to be inclusive and I, when I say it, I'm making sure like, this is not excluding anyone.

Like, I'm just proud - Purpose of this moment.

And honestly like a little brush up for me.

Why, what does Latine, why is Latine Latine and then why is Latinx Latinx?

Like, I would love a refresher.

- Yeah.

So the, the idea is that Spanish is just such a gendered language where everything is either masculine, feminine with the Latino, Latina, so very JLo, like mi gente latino, which is wrong, JLo, but just gotta get in there.

But because of the gendered language for the folks who don't identify with either of the binaries of masculine or feminine, they wanted something else.

- Right?

- And so traditionally in Spanish language, the e is used for gender neutrality, but also in certain circles, the X, so it's pretty much interchangeable, the E and the X.

- Got it.

- They serve the same purpose, which is trying to show people that it's neither masculine or feminine.

- Got it.

- Which is why sometimes to use the word Latinx because I feel more queer than gay, even though I'm very much a gay person.

But there's, it's, it's about the sexual gender identity journey mostly.

- Got it.

I - We're another conversation in itself, being Latino and queer.

- Yeah.

there is - Maybe my answer kind of changes and I, and to own that it almost feels like with more of the knowledge that you just kind of shared, I go, oh, like, yeah, I'm Latino, but like there is this other side of me and the queer and you know, the gay, like, oh, like, it, it, I understand why people want to take ownership of all of that.

All, all of what they are, and not just that they're man, woman or just Latino.

It's like, I, I, okay, so for that, thank you for explaining that.

That makes good, yeah.

Okay.

- Well I, I wanna end by asking each of you, what's your favorite part about being Latino?

And I'll say that for me, there's something beautiful about just hearing Spanish and understanding either all of it, a little bit of it, just having that like, oh shit, like this is our little secret language.

I mean, it's not a secret language.

Billions of people talk Spanish, but that we have this energy like this - That happens, this like little, yes, there's - Something beautiful about that communication.

So I'm wondering for you, Maria, what is your favorite thing about it?

- Woo.

I was gonna say La Comida, but I would like to say always La Comida from any, any Latino communities countries is the food is always gonna hit.

It's always gonna hit, there's always gonna be a special dish.

But I will also say it is just our spiciness that spiciness to show up in the world.

Like we show up, we always show up, we always like, you know, whether we don't present however we're supposed to present, there's something about us that another Latina person would be like, that is my people right over there and I'm gonna go chat with them.

- Yeah.

So - Yeah, I would say our spicy, - I like we're spicy.

I like her spicy.

Ian, what is yours?

I would say there's an immense amount of heart that I feel like, and I, when you ask like, what's my favorite part?

I think about like my mom a lot, right?

And like, because she, to me is my, she's like my access to that every day.

She's, she's the, and so she and the, and the way she and my aunts and mi tias, and like my, my Latin side of the family, it, there's just such a, there's such a, a, a heart for like, you are always family.

And that's how I feel whenever I'm, that's how I felt speaking to both of you, that like, immediately there's just this shorthand, this like way that we get each other.

So I guess it would be like the heart, the heart of the community, you know.

- But I, I wanna thank both of you again for joining me for this really fantastic in-depth conversation about identity.

And for any of you who are watching who want to know how to follow each of my guests, just be sure to go to the show notes.

And I'll also put a link for Tres Leches, which is the podcast that Ian co-hosts.

And if you wanna get ahold of us also information will be there.

If there's a topic you want featured on Hyphenación, we are all ears.

But until next time, peace.

- Bye.

Ciao.