>> Jennifer Granholm: EUROPE IS FEELING THIS MOST ACUTELY.

THEY HAVE A HUGE RELIANCE ON RUSSIAN, RUSSIAN GAS.

>> Bonnie: BECOMING A CARBON NEUTRAL COUNTRY.

>> Jennifer Granholm: THE PRESIDENT HAS A GOAL OF GETTING TO 100 SET CLEAN ELECTRICITY, MEANING ZERO CARBON EMITTING ELECTRICITY BY 2035, AND TO CUT OUR CO2 EMISSIONS IN HALF BY 2030 AND TO BE NET ZERO BY 2050.

I KNOW I CAN GO ON AND ON.

SORRY, IT'S A LOT -- I'M TELLING YOU, WE ARE ON IT AND ROCKING AND ROLLING FOR BEING ABLE TO BUILD A CLEANER ENERGY SYSTEM IN THE A CLEANER ENERGY SYSTEM IN THE U.S. [MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY," A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, WE SPEAK WITH THE U.S. SECRETARY OF ENERGY JENNIFER GRANHOLM.

SHE WAS APPOINTED TO THAT POSITION BY PRESIDENT BIDEN LAST YEAR.

AT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, WE HAVE THE SOLUTIONS TO TACKLE OUR CLIMATE EMERGENCY AND TO CREATE HEALTHY, SAFE, AND THRIVING COMMUNITIES.

I AM JENNIFER GRANHOLM, AND I'M SO PROUD TO BE THE NEXT SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY.

LET'S GET TO WORK.

>> Bonnie: THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY MAINTAINS THE COUNTRY'S NUCLEAR INFRASTRUCTURE, IT'S JUST AN ENERGY POLICY IN CONJUNCTION WITH CONGRESS, AND FUNDS SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.

PREVIOUSLY, GRANHOLM WAS THE GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN.

SO WELCOME, FORMER GOVERNOR, CURRENT ENERGY SECRETARY GRANHOLMOW ARE YOU?

>> Jennifer Granholm: I AM GREAT.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> Bonnie: WELL, AND IT'S PROPITIOUS TIME TOO TO HAVE YOU ON WITH THE WAR IN THE UKRAINE GOING ON.

A COUPLE QUESTIONS ABOUT OUR USE OF RUSSIAN GAS: WE WERE ENERGY -- WE WERE A NET EXPORTER OF ENERGY WHICH I BEGAN I BELIEVE UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA AND IT WAS BECAUSE OF FRACKING, WHICH OF COURSE ENVIRONMENT IS DON'T LIKE, BUT THAT'S WHAT GOT US THERE.

LAST YEAR, WE IMPORTED SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND BARRELS OF OIL FROM RUSSIA.

WHY IS THAT?

>> Jennifer Granholm: WE ARE ACTUALLY STILL A NET EXPORTER OF BOTH OIL AND GAS.

WE ARE BLESSED WITH ABUNDANT RESOURCES INCLUDING FOSSIL FUEL.

>> Bonnie: YOUR PART -- DEPARTMENT IS PARTICULARLY CRITICAL AT THIS TIME BECAUSE THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY IS SO FOSSIL FUEL DEPENDENT.

BUT WILL IT PUSH US FASTER AND MORE FURIOUSLY TOWARD GETTING OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS?

>> Jennifer Granholm: OH, IT CERTAINLY SHOULD.

I MEAN, THERE'S AN IMMEDIATE URGENCY WORD SOLUTION TO INCREASE SUPPLY SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE PEOPLE AT THE PUMP, RIGHT, BECAUSE IT'S A LESSON OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND AND THE MORE SUPPLY YOU HAVE, THE LOWER YOU PAY.

BUT THE MEDIUM AND LONG TERM, IT IS SO CLEAR THAT FOR OUR NATIONAL SECURITY, FOR OUR ENERGY SECURITY, FOR OUR ECONOMY, WE HAVE GOT TO MOVE AWAY FROM OUR RELIANCE ON FOSSIL FUELS PRODUCED IN COUNTRIES THAT DO NOT HAVE OUR INTEREST AT HEART.

EUROPE IS FEELING THIS MOST ACUTELY.

THEY HAVE A HUGE HANDLE ON RUSSIAN GAS IN PARTICULAR, THE NATIONAL GAS.

IT'S DEVASTATING FOR THEM, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE DONE?

THEY SAID, THIS JUST -- IT REALLY CAUSES US TO ACCELERATE TOWARD CLEAN ENERGY.

THEY HAVE BEEN HELD HOSTAGE ESSENTIALLY BY RUSSIA BECAUSE OF THE RELIANCE ON NATURAL GAS.

THEY FEEL THAT -- AND HE HAS, VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS USED GAS AS A WEAPON AGAINST THEM, HAVE TRIED TO HELP THEM HOSTAGE OVER THE RELIANCE ON NATURAL GAS, HAS TRIED TO USE NATIONAL GAS AS A WAY TO DIVIDE THE ALLIES, DIVIDE US FROM EUROPE, BUT HIS ACTIONS HAVE ONLY SERVED TO UNITE US BUT IT CERTAINLY MEANS THAT THEY -- THEY AND WE HAVE AN AGENDA TO ACCELERATE DRAMATICALLY OUR MOVEMENT TOWARD CLEAN AND OUR MOVEMENT AWAY FROM ANY SUPPLY FROM CERTAINLY RUSSIA.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE ACCOMPLISHED SO FAR, YOU AND THE PRESIDENT, OF COURSE, HAVE ACCOMPLISHED SO FAR IN TERMS OF PUSHING US TOWARD A CARBON NEUTRAL -- BECOMING A CARBON NEUTRAL COUNTRY.

>> Jennifer Granholm: THE GREAT NEWS IS THAT, FIRST OF ALL, YOU HAVE TO START WITH A GOAL, RIGHT?

IN THE PRESIDENT HAS A GOAL OF GETTING TO 100 PERCENT CLEAN ELECTRICITY, MEANING ZERO CARBON EMITTING ELECTRICITY BY 2035 AND TO CUT OUR CO2 EMISSIONS IN HALF BY 2030 AND TO BE NET ZERO BY 2050.

THAT MEANS WE HAVE GOT TO MOVE EXTREMELY QUICKLY.

FORTUNATELY, THE PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS AGREED ON THIS BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE LAW.

EOPLE THINK IT'S JUST ABOUT ROADS AND BRIDGES, BUT ACTUALLY IT IS ABOUT A WHOLE SUITE OF CLEAN ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES IN ADVANCING THOSE TECHNOLOGIES.

FOR EXAMPLE, ONE TECHNOLOGY THAT IS -- EMITS 002 AND IT IS A DESPICABLE BASELOAD POWER IS THE NUCLEAR.

SO IN FEBRUARY, WE ANNOUNCED THIS REQUEST -- WE STARTED THE PROCESS OF PUTTING $6 BILLION WORTH OF CIVIL NUCLEAR CREDIT OUT ONTO THE STREET TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR NUCLEAR PROGRAM STILL STAYS IN PLACE, 50 PERCENT RIGHT NOW, A LITTLE OVER 50 PERCENT, OUR CLEAN, ZERO CARBON EMISSION ELECTRICITY IN THE UNITED STATES COMES FROM NUCLEAR.

>> Bonnie: MAKE SURE THAT DOES NOT GO AWAY.

WE ALSO ANNOUNCED A NOTICE OF INTENT TO PROVIDE ABOUT $3 BILLION TO BOOST THE PRODUCTION OF ADVANCED BATTERIESF COURSE THOSE ARE CRITICAL FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

THOSE BATTERIES ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT AS WE GET TO OUR GOAL OF ELECTRIFYING THE TRANSPORTATION SECTOR.

IN ADDITION TO ALSO PUTTING OUT ON THE STREET $5 BILLION OR AT LEAST A NOTICE TO GIVE GUIDANCE TO STATES ABOUT THE $5 BILLION THAT WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE THROUGH THAT BUILDOUT OF ELECTRIC CHARGING STATIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

SO DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY AND THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION HAVE A JOINT OFFICE TO BE ABLE TO PUT THAT $5 BILLION OUT ON THE STREET FOR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF NEW CHARGING STATIONS.

IN FEBRUARY, WE ANNOUNCED NINE AND HALF BILLION FOR CLEAN HYDROGEN INITIATIVES, THAT MEANS HYDROGEN IS A FORM OF ENERGY CARRIER, ENERGY STORAGE THAT CAN HELP RENEWABLE ENERGY, IF IT IS CLEAN HYDROGEN, GREEN HYDROGEN, TO BE ESSENTIALLY DESPICABLE BASELOAD POWER SINCE THE SUN DOES NOT AWAY SHINE AND THE WIND IS AND ALWAYS FLOW.

TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE ABLE TO STORE ENERGY AND HYDROGEN, CLEAN HYDROGEN, GREEN HYDROGEN IS A WAY TO DO THAT AS WELL AS TO TRANSPORT THAT HYDROGEN.

IT IS SUPER EXCITING.

NEW TECHNOLOGY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT BUT EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS LOOKING TO THAT ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY, TO BE ABLE TO GET TO A ZERO CARBON EMISSION GOALS.

WE JUST ANNOUNCED ANOTHER NINE NASHVILLIAN DOLLARS -- EXCUSE ME, IN FEBRUARY, ANOTHER CALL FOR PEOPLE TO COME WORK FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, A CLEAN ENERGY CORPS, THOUSAND PEOPLE.

LOOKING TO HIRE TO HELP US BUILD OUT THESE CLEAN HYDROGEN HELPS, THE CARBON CAPTURE HELPS, THE BATTERY TECHNOLOGY, WE NEED ENGINEERS, WE NEED PROJECT MANAGERS, WE NEED PEOPLE STARTING, WE NEED PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THEIR CAREER.

pSO IT'S VERY EXCITING, THAT CLEAN ENERGY CORPSE ANNOUNCED A WHOLE OFFICE REALIGNMENT IN FEBRUARY AROUND APPLYING, DEPLOYING, DEPLOYING OF ITS CLEAN ENERGY.

WE GOT A WHOLE BUILDING OF BETTER GRID INITIATIVE.

I CAN GO ON AND ON.

I'M SORRY.

I'M TELLING YOU, WE ARE ON IT AND WE ARE ROCKING AND ROLLING TO BE ALE TO BUILD A CLEANER ENERGY SYSTEM IN THE U.S.> Bonnie: BUT ONE OF THE MAJOR AMERICAN AUTO PRODUCERS, NOT TESLA, BUT ONE OF THEM RECENTLY ANNOUNCED THAT THEY PLAN TO BE -- BE MAKING 1/3 OF THEIR FLEET ELECTRIC VEHICLES BY A BELIEVE IT WAS 2030.

IS THAT QUICKLY ENOUGH?

>> Jennifer Granholm: I THINK -- IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT SELLING THIS, PERHAPS, THIS IS BY 2025 AND THEY WANT TO GET 50 PERCENT OF THERE'S TO BE ELECTRIC BY 2030, AS YOU ALL OF THE OTHER AUTO COMPANIES.

THEY ARE AT 50 PERCENT BY 2030, OF THE NEW SALES, WILL BE ELECTRIC.

SUPER EXCITING.

NOW WE ALSO HAVE TO GET THIS SEMICONDUCTOR CHIP SHORTAGE RESULTS SO THAT THEY CAN ACTUALLY BUILD ALL OF THESE ON THE SCALE AND SPEED THAT IS NECESSARY TO DO CARBON IS OUR TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM.

THE TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM RIGHT NOW IS ABOUT ONE THIRD OF OUR CARBON POLLUTION THAT GOES UP INTO THE AIR.

SO WE NEED TO DIG CARBONIZED.

AND MY FAVORITE THING ABOUT THIS IS THAT IF YOU DRIVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU CONSIDER THESE OUTRAGEOUS GAS PRICES TODAY, IF YOU HAVE A 15 GALLON TANK WHICH IS THE AVERAGE SIZE OF A TANK TODAY AND YOU WENT TO FILL IT UP, ON AVERAGE, IF YOU HAD TO PAY THE AVERAGE GAS PRICE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WHICH IS ABOUT $3.80, YOU WOULD BE PAYING $54 TO FILL UP YOUR TANK.

THAT IS $54.

IF YOU HAVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE, THAT WOULD TAKE IT THE SAME DISTANCE, ABOUT $300, AND YOU PLUG IT IN AT HOME AND IT WOULD COST YOU ABOUT $12.

54 VERSUS 12, THAT IS A HUGE SAVINGS EVERY TIME YOU FILL UP YOUR CAR!

SO I AM JUST SAYING, THE MOVEMENT TO ELECTRIFYING OUR TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM, TO RESOLVING GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS AND CLIMATE CHANGE, AND IT WILL ALSO PUT MONEY IN PEOPLE'S POCKETS, AND THAT'S VERY EXCITING TOO.

>> Bonnie: NOW, I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT NUCLEAR, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY IT AT LEAST USED TO BE CONTROVERSIAL.

THERE HAVEN'T BEEN ANY MAJOR ACCIDENTS AT NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS RECENTLY.

BUT EUROPE DOES HAVE A LOT MORE NUCLEAR POWER THAN WE DO, CORRECT?

>> Jennifer Granholm: FRANCE IN PARTICULAR HAS A LOT OF NUCLEAR POWER, AS WELL AS THE EASTERN BLOCK EUROPEAN COUNTRIES DO.

GERMANY, NOT SO MUCH.

BUT THERE IS A GREAT OPEN -- MADE FRANCE RECOGNIZES THAT NUCLEAR POWER IS DESPICABLE BASELOAD, CLEAN POWER.

IT'S VERY RELIABLE.

SO THEY HAVE DOUBLED DOWN ON IT.

WE ARE -- OUR DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE A NATIONAL SECURITY OMISSION WHICH IS THAT WE MAINTAIN A NUCLEAR STOCKPILE THAT'S ON THE WEAPONS SIDE.

BUT ON THE NUCLEAR POWER SIDE, THE POWER PLANTS, ALLOWING YOU TO TURN ON THE LIGHTS, WE ALSO HAVE AN OFFICE THAT'S FOCUSED ON THAT.

AND THE TECHNOLOGIES ASSOCIATED WITH NEXT-GENERATION NUCLEAR ARE REALLY EXCITING.

THESE SMALLER MODULAR REACTORS, THEY CAN -- THERE IS EVEN MICRO REACTORS.

THESE ADVANCED TECHNOLOGIES THAT CREATE LESS WASTE, NUCLEAR FUEL AS WELL AS CREATE THAT KIND OF POWER, THEY ARE MUCH LESS EXPENSIVE, THAT IS REALLY PROMISING TECHNOLOGY THAT I THINK A LOT OF -- I KNOW A LOT OF COUNTRIES ARE ALSO LOOKING AT.

THEY ARE LOOKING TO BUY FROM THE UNITED STATES AS WELL AS THE U.S., DEPLOYING THOSE TECHNOLOGIES> Bonnie: NOW, THE CHIPS THAT ARE NECESSARY IN ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

AND OF COURSE THE COUNTRY, THE BIGGEST SUPPLIER BY FAR IN THE WORLD IS DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO -- CONGO WHICH IS INVOLVED IN A CIVIL WAR.

AND THEN THE SECOND LARGEST SUPPLIER OF COBALT IS RUSSIA.

SO, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO TO GET THE AMOUNT OF COBALT WE NEED TO KEEP THIS TRANSITION TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES GOING?

>> Jennifer Granholm: GREAT QUESTION.

COBALT IS ACTUALLY USED IN THE BATTERIES.

WE NEED CHIPS AS WELL AND OBVIOUSLY WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE DO THAT, BUT COBALT, LITHIUM, THEY ARE USED FOR THE BATTERIES FOR THE ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

THOSE ARE CRITICAL MATERIALS, THE CRITICAL MINERALS THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH MAKING A BATTERY RUN.

THIS IS WHY WITH THE PRESIDENT HAS DONE IN HIS STATE OF THE UNION, YOU HEARD IT, IS REALLY EMPHASIZED BUILDING OUT AMERICAN SUPPLY CHAINS FOR THESE TECHNOLOGIES.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, COBALT, NOT ONLY IS IN THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO AND THEY ALSO USE CHILD LABOR FOR THE EXTRACTION OF THEIR MINERAL, SO IT'S NOT ONLY IN A DISTANT PLACE, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS ASSOCIATED WITH IT AND WE KNOW CHINA HAS SIMILAR ISSUES CERTAINLY WITH RESPECT TO THEIR SOLAR SUPPLY CHAIN AS WELL.

WE WANT TO BUILD THIS ALL OUT IN THE THIS ALL OUT IN THE U.S. WE HAVE STOOD BY FOR THE PAST TWO DECADES AND WATCHED OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE A STRATEGIC PLAN TO BE ABLE TO COACH OUR MANUFACTURING SECTOR, PROVIDING HUGE INCENTIVES FOR THEM TO GO LOCATE, YOU KNOW, USING SLAVE LABOR, ESSENTIALLY, TO BE ABLE TO PAY FOR IT AND TO MAKE IT SUPERCHEAP.

THIS PRESIDENT HAS SAID, NO, WE WILL NOT DO THAT.

WE WILL PARTNER WITH BUSINESS.

WE ARE GOING TO HELP MAKE IT PROFITABLE FOR THEM TO LOCATE HERE, AND WE WILL DO THE WHOLE SUPPLY CHAIN HERE.

>> Bonnie: BUT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT REFINERIES, THE EQUIVALENT FOR BATTERIES OF REFINERIES, MAKING THEM HERE.

YOU ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT HARVESTING COBALT FROM AMERICAN SOIL WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOUP TO NUTS AND SO, I MEAN, COBALT, THEIR PLACES IN THE U.S. AND NORTH AMERICA THAT HAVE COBALT THIS POSITS AS WELL AS LITHIUM DEPOSITS.

ALSO, BECAUSE THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY IS SO INVOLVED IN TECHNOLOGY, WE HAVE 17 NATIONAL LABS, WE ARE DEEPLY LOOKING AT SUBSTITUTE MATERIALS FOR COBALT SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO RELY SO MUCH ON THE TYPE OF MATERIAL WHICH IS MORE EXPENSIVE AND RARE.

BUT LET ME JUST SAY THAT WE BELIEVE THAT MINING HAS BEEN CONTROVERSIAL BECAUSE IT HAS NOT BEEN DONE IN AN ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE WAY IN THE PAST AS MUCH.

THERE ARE SOME COMPANIES THAT DO.

THERE ARE SOME THAT HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING BEST PRACTICES.

BUT FOR THE MOST PART, IS A LOT OF ENVIRONMENTAL DEGRADATION ASSOCIATED WITH MINING.

CAN YOU DO IT IN A SUSTAINABLE WAY?

YES, YOU CANOR EXAMPLE, IN CALIFORNIA, IN THE SALTON SEA, THEY ARE EXTRACTING LITHIUM FROM GEOTHERMAL BRIAN'S AND THEY ARE DOING IT IN AN ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE WAY WITH A WHOLE COMMUNITY IS ON BOARD AND THERE IS NO DEGRADATION THAT YOU WOULD SEE FROM EXTRACTING LITHIUM PERHAPS IN ANOTHER WAY.

SO WE ARE VERY FOCUSED ON DOING THE WHOLE THING, SOUP TO NUTS.

THAT ALSO MEANS RESPONSIBLE PROCESSING.

WE DON'T DO ANY PROCESSING OF ANY OF THESE MINERALS TO YOUR POINT.

IT IS ALL DONE.

CHINA DOES THE VAST MAJORITY OF IT.

SO CAN WE DO PROCESSING IN AN ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE WAY?

YOU BET WEEKEND.

AND SO, LET'S DO THAT HERE.

BY THE WAY, CREATE AN ENTIRE MARKET FOR ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE MINERALS THAT ARE PROCESSED, BATTERIES, THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD CAN BUY.

THEY ARE ALL IN THE SAME PICKLE TOO.

THEY DON'T WANT TO NECESSARILY BUY COUNTRIES THAT HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, ENVIRONMENTAL VIOLATIONS.

THEY LOOKING FOR WAYS TO BE ABLE TO ACQUIRE THESE PRODUCTS, THE FULL PRODUCT LIKE A BATTERY, FROM COUNTRIES THAT ARE DOING IT WELL AND WE CAN DO THAT.

WE CAN USE IT HERE AND STAMP IT MADE IN AMERICA AND WE CAN EXPORTED AS WELL.

>> Bonnie: WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT TRYING TO FIND BETTER MATERIALS, CLEANER MATERIALS TO USE, TELL ME ABOUT THE TRAJECTORY FOR THAT.

WHERE IS THIS GOING ON IN THE U.S. AND WHEN DO YOU EXPECT TO GET RESULTS?

>> Jennifer Granholm: IT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON IN OUR LABORATORY.

SO THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, AS I SAY, 17 NATIONAL LABORATORIES WHO ALL HAVE SPECIALIZATIONS.

AND SO, THE MOVEMENT TOWARD FINDING SUBSTITUTES FOR MATERIALS THAT ARE MORE DIFFICULT IS HAPPENING IN ABOUT HALF OF THE LABS THAT WE HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND THERE ARE SOME REALLY PROMISING TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE COMING OUT OF THESE.

WE HAVE A WHOLE CRITICAL MINERALS INITIATIVE THAT IS DONE, FOR EXAMPLE, AND IDAHO WHERE THEY ARE LOOKING AT ALL THE SUBSTITUTES THAT ARE MUCH CHEAPER.

THIS IS TRUE, BY THE WAY, FOR BATTERIES, THE LARGE-SCALE BATTERIES AS WELL.

FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S WANTING TO PUT LITHIUM IN A BATTERY FOR CAR BECAUSE YOU HAVE A SMALLER BATTERY.

BUT WHAT IF YOU WANT TO STORE ENERGY FROM UTILITIES WHO ARE PUTTING UP SOLAR PANELS AND WIND TURBINES AND YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU CAPTURE THAT AND STORE IT?

THAT IS CALLED UTILITY SCALE STORAGE, AND THOSE ARE MUCH BIGGER BATTERIES AND THAT MEANS THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO USE A LOT MORE LITHIUM OR COBALT AND YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE TOO EXPENSIVE.

SO WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SUBSTITUTES?

FOR EXAMPLE, THIS INTERESTING RESEARCH GOING ON ON IRON BATTERIES WERE ON BATTERIES FROM SALT FROM THE OCEAN.

THERE'S JUST REALLY INTERESTING AND VERY PROMISING RESEARCH THAT'S BEING DONE.

ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE CALL THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY THE SOLUTIONS DEPARTMENT.

WE HAVE A BIG, HAIRY, AUDACIOUS GOAL TO REDUCE THE COST OF STORAGE FROM UTILITY SKILLS -- UTILITY SCALE STORAGE BY 90 PERCENT, AND THAT IS A LOT OF THAT WORK BEING DONE IN THE LABS.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHTHANK YOU FOR THAT.

I WANT TO SWITCH WHAT TIME WE HAVE LEFT OVER TO A VERY DIFFERENT TOPIC, WHICH IS DIVERSITY IN STEM CAREERS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SUCH AN ADVOCATE FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER.

TELL ME, WHAT IS THE DEPARTMENT DOING ABOUT GETTING MORE WOMEN INTO STEM CAREERS AND PEOPLE OF COLOR?

>> Jennifer Granholm: YES.

FESTIVAL, THE PRESIDENT, IN HIS BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE LAW, THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR $62 BILLION, RIGHT, AND THAT $62 BILLION HAS TO BE FILTERED THROUGH A PROCESS CALLED JUSTICE 40, WHICH MEANS THAT 40 PERCENT OF THE BENEFITS FROM THESE INVESTMENTS HAVE TO GO TO COMMUNITIES THAT SHOULD BE A FRONT OF THE LINE.

SO TO YOUR POINT ABOUT DIVERSITY AND MAKING SURE THAT COMMUNITIES ARE BROUGHT ALONG, THERE IS A BIG PUSH TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT AFFECTED WOMEN AND MINORITIES IN STEM, HUGELY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A WORKFORCE THAT LOOKS LIKE AMERICA.

SO IN THE U.S., FOR EXAMPLE, WOMEN MAKE UP ABOUT 27 PERCENT OF THE STEM WORKFORCE IN LESS THAN ONE THIRD OF THE CLEAN ENERGY WORKFORCE AND WE WANT TO INCREASE THOSE NUMBERS.

WE KNOW THAT IN ORDER TO TACKLE THE CLIMATE CRISIS AND CREATE HOUR, YOU KNOW, ON CLEAN ENERGY FUTURE, WE NEED INNOVATIVE, LOCALIZED SOLUTIONS BUT WE'VE GOT TO HAVE DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES AND EXPERIENCES AT THE TABLE AND WE MAY NEED TO BE EQUALLY REPRESENTED.

AND THIS IS -- WE SAY WE SEE THIS IN THE LABS ALL THE TIME, SCIENTISTS KNOW THIS, THERE IS THIS KELLOGG SCHOOL OF BUSINESS STUDY AND IT FOCUSED ON WORKING TEAMS, RIGHT, TEAMS MAKE BETTER DECISIONS THAN INDIVIDUALS.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, ALL-MALE TEAMS MAKE BETTER DECISIONS ABOUT 58 PERCENT OF THE TIME THEN INDIVIDUALS.

GENDER FIRST TEAMS MAKE BETTER DECISIONS 73 PERCENT OF THE TIME.

AND TEAMS WITH ALL KINDS OF DIVERSITY MAKE BETTER DECISIONS 87 PERCENT OF THE TIME.

THE MORE PERSPECTIVES YOU HAVE AROUND THE TABLE, LO AND BEHOLD, THE MORE INPUT YOU HAVE, THE BETTER OFF AS YOU HAVE BEEN DETERMINED THE SCIENTIFIC ARENA AND IT'S TRUE IN ALL ASPECTS OF WORK AND PLAY.

SO THE TAKE AWAY IS THAT WE HAVE GOT TO INCREASE OUR STEM WORKFORCE AND WE ARE DOING THAT BY WORKING WITH HBCUS, WITH MSI'S, WE HAVE IN THE WHOLE EFFORT INSIDE OF OUR LABS TO BE ABLE TO GO TO LOCAL SCHOOLS TO PULL OUT YOUNG WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR TO BE ABLE TO EXPOSE THEM TO WHAT WE ARE DOING IN THE SCIENCE TECHNOLOGY ENGINEERING AND MATH FIELD.

SO WE ARE REALLY FOCUSED ON IT BECAUSE THE CLIMATE DEPENDS ON IT, BETTER SOLUTIONS DEPEND ON IT.

>> Bonnie: NOW, WOULD YOU SAY THAT BECOMING AN ENGINEER IS THE CAREER OF THE FUTURE?

AND ALSO A VERY REMUNERATIVE COME -- CAREER, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE WAY TO MAKE MONEY, CLICK IT, IF YOU CAN PATENT SOMETHING OR BE ON A TEAM THAT PATENTS NEW TECHNOLOGY FOR MAKING -- REPLACING LITHIUM OR WHATEVER THE CHEMICAL -- COBALT.

>> Jennifer Granholm: 1000 PERCENT, YEAH.HONESTLY, IF I WERE TO START OVER AGAIN, I WOULD DEFINITELY GO INTO ENGINEERING.

I MEAN, I LOVE ALL THIS ENGINEERING RELATED TO CLEAN ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES.

IT'S JUST SO FASCINATING.

AND IS ALL KINDS OF ENGINEERS, ALL KINDS OF SCIENCE TECHNOLOGY THAT IS HAPPENING ACROSS THE BOARD, BUT THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS REQUIRE THE RESEARCHERS, THE ENGINEERS, THE SCIENTISTS TO BE ABLE TO SOLVE THEM AND DID SO IN AN EXCITING.

FROM THE MOST MINUTE THING, THE SUBATOMIC PARTICLES, TO THE BIGGEST ISSUES RELATED TO CLIMATE AND MODELING, IT'S JUST SUPER EXCITING AND MEANINGFUL CAREER PATH, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IN ADDITION TO THE MONEY, YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT AND THAT'S WHAT THIS WHOLE CLEAN ENERGY SPACE IS SO EXCITING, BECAUSE IT CREATES ALL KINDS OF JOBS FOR ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE.

BUT IF YOU ARE AN ENGINEER, IF YOU ARE IN RESEARCH, IF YOU ARE DOING THE SCIENCE FIELDS, YOU CAN DO REALLY WELL BY DOING GOOD.

>> Bonnie: BECAUSE I THINK, FOR EXAMPLE, MY GENERATION, THE CAREERS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WANTED TO GO INTO WORK BECOMING A DOCTOR OR BECOMING A LAWYER.

AND THEN THE NEXT GENERATION WAS TECHNOLOGY FOR SURE.

BUT THAT FIELD HAS BECOME QUITE CROWDED.

NOT AS DIVERSE IT NEEDS TO BE A QUITE CROWDED.

SO I'M JUST WONDERING IF YOU BELIEVE THERE ARE MORE OPPORTUNITIES IN PARTICULARLY ENGINEERING WHEN IT COMES TO CLEAN ENERGY?

>> Jennifer Granholm: ABSOLUTELY, THEY ARE.

WE ARE RECRUITING THE ALL TIME.

THERE A THOUSAND PEOPLE HIRING RIGHT NOW, THE BULK OF THEM ARE FOR ENGINEERS.

WE JUST NEED PEOPLE WHO ARE SYSTEMS THINKERS AND KNOW HOW TO SOLVE PROBLEMS, WHO ARE EXCITED ABOUT CRACKING THE CODE WERE DESIGNING.

SO, YES, IT IS A HUGE OPPORTUNITY.

I HOPE, YOU KNOW, I WOULD LOVE FOR MY -- I JUST BECAME A GRANDMOTHER FOR THE FIRST TIME.

I'M HOPING THAT MY GRANDKIDS, IF THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE DOCTORS, HAVE THEM BE ENGINEERS BECAUSE THAT'S ALSO SUPER EXCITING!

>> Bonnie: IF THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE DOCTORS, AGAIN, IT'S NOT THE FIELD IT WAS 30, 40 YEARS AGO WITH, YOU KNOW, MEDICINE NOW CONTROLLED BY THE INSURANCE COMPANIES AND WHAT DOCTORS CAN DO IN GETTING PREAPPROVAL, ETC.

IT SEEMS TO BE -- IT SEEMS TO ME THERE'S POSSIBLY MORE CREATIVE FREEDOM AND ENGINEERING?

>> Jennifer Granholm: YEAH.

FIRST OF ALL, YOU NEED ENGINEERS FOR ALL KINDS OF THINGS, RIGHT?

FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE UNDERSECRETARIES IN OUR OFFICE, HER NAME IS JULE RUBY, AND SHE IS IN CHARGE OF OUR NATIONAL NUCLEAR SECURITY ADMINISTRATION.

SHE IS SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN DESIGNING SOLUTIONS IN THE NUCLEAR SPACE FOR HER ENTIRE CAREER.

IN FACT, SINCE WOMEN'S HISTORY MONTH, JUST JOINED HER AND OUR OTHER UNDERSECRETARY FOR SCIENCE, DR. JEREMY RICHMAN, AND, YOU KNOW, SHE'S A PHD DOCTOR.

BUT HER WHOLE CAREER HAS BEEN IN THE SCIENCE SOLUTIONS SPACE AND WE WERE, ACROSS THE STREET FROM MY OFFICE HERE IN D.C. IS THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION.

THEY ARE ALL OF THESE -- FOR WOMEN'S HISTORY MONTH, THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED IF THEN SHE CAN, THIS EXHIBIT AT THE SMITHSONIAN, WHICH IS 120 3B PRINTED STATUES FEATURING CONTEMPORARY WOMEN INNOVATORS IN STEM AND 2020 FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF VITAL ENERGY!

WE HAVE A LOT OF WOMEN LEADING IN THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY AND THEY WOULD HAVE A NEW WEATHER WAY.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.HANK YOU SO MUCH, SECRETARY GRANHOLMT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.

BEST OF LUCK TO YOU AND ALL THOSE INNOVATIONS THAT WE DESPERATELY NEED IN TERMS OF CLEAN ENERGY.

>> Jennifer Granholm: YES.

WE WILL DO IT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON.

FUN TALKING TO YOU.

>> Bonnie: SAME HERE.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

LET'S KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING ON FACEBOOK, TWITTER AND INSTAGRAM.

VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT PBS.org/TO THE CONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

[MUSIC] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.org/TO THE CONTRARY.