- Well, good afternoon and welcome again to the Architecture for Health lecture series.

It's great to have you in the studio with me today, and those of you online or watching the recorded versions, welcome, it's great to have you.

Our speaker today is a long-time friend.

Many of you will know him: John Pangrazio, well known for his health architecture work at the firm NBBJ.

John studied architecture at Cal Poly and went from there into military service before doing his graduate work in architecture at the University of Washington.

But I wanna share something with you from the bio that he provided to me about the turning point for him.

While he was in the military, he experienced, as an architect in the Air Force, he experienced what it meant to design healthcare facilities, what the impact was on our men and women in uniform, and, by extension, the impact on the families and the greater circle of family friends.

And it changed his life.

It made a tremendous impact on John and the value of architecture, and in particular healthcare architecture.

And it was at that point that a career in the specialty of healthcare design was born.

Recently, Cal Poly honored John, as one of its own, as 2021's Alumni of the Year from the College of Architecture and Environmental Design.

John is now retired from NBBJ but the accolades and recognition of his work continue to pour in.

To introduce John today, before he comes and delivers his presentation, I want to play a video that was put together by Cal Poly to commemorate his recognition as the distinguished Alum of the Year in 2021.

So let me just play that now and I think you'll enjoy this.

(upbeat music) - We've chosen John to be this year's honoree because he is an extraordinary role model for future practitioners in not just architecture but in any discipline that wants to apply their knowledge to an important issue in society.

- I graduated from Cal Poly and was faced with the classic decision of either being drafted or enlisting.

There was a notice pinned up on the wall in George Hasslein's office and it said, "We need architects in San Francisco in the Medical Service Corps."

Went into the Air Force working as a architect-in-training.

It allowed me to see firsthand the dedication that particular industry had.

I joined NBBJ in 1975 because I was interested in focusing on a specialty of healthcare architecture.

- His career spans many decades and he has had a hand in the design of hospital and healthcare environments all up and down the West Coast and throughout the American West.

He was a true pioneer who transformed the practice of healthcare architecture by recognizing that you couldn't do it just with a team of designers.

You needed healthcare providers on the design team.

- Nothing was more powerful than to walk into a room and see the connection that the nurses and other healthcare specialists made with the client.

They elevated our work tremendously, and one of the projects that I'm very proud of, where this multidisciplinary team did such a great job, was Banner Estrella Medical Center in Phoenix, Arizona.

This project was featured in "Newsweek" magazine, which is fame and fortune for an architect, but more importantly was actually the place where my son received care.

That meant more to me than than anything else, of course, as a professional and a personal experience.

- George Hasslein was the founding dean of our college, and when you listen to John, that he didn't just learn skills at Cal Poly, he learned confidence, that is what he got from George Hasslein.

- Learn-by-doing was perfect for me.

Day one, we were doing drawings, we were learning about engineering and structures and keeping the water out of buildings.

I met my wife here at Cal Poly.

She was a home economics major.

We've come back periodically, but I've been most active in the last 10 years, and being on the Dean's Council has been a very rewarding experience.

- Healthcare, wellness, and recovery are extremely important, and, I think, now, more than ever, we are all seeing that.

What a great time to thank someone like John who is making it possible for us to care for patients.

- The general public is now more aware of the dedication of those people in the healthcare industry because of the pandemic.

That's no surprise to me.

I've known these people for my entire career.

Why wouldn't you want to saddle up beside them and go change the world?

(bright upbeat music) - I asked John to speak to this class because I know John has experience bringing the talents, the skills, the work of NBBJ to international clients and audiences, and he agreed to do that for us today.

So would you please join me in welcoming my dear friend John Pangrazio to the studio.

(audience applauding) - Well, thank you, Ray.

I'm delighted to speak to you and your colleagues today.

Ladies and gentlemen, Ray specifically reached out to me and suggested that I might offer some perspective on international healthcare design and applying those talents in other nations and cultures.

So I've organized my presentation around my own experiences working internationally and have shared, and I will share with you some of the comments from my colleagues that I've talked to, to give you a perspective of what's going on now.

Let's see here.

I wish I could get this moved over a little bit.

Okay, that's better for me.

Thank you.

Alright, this story is really about then and now.

So it's also a story about the art and science of doing work internationally, and we will, in our today's agenda, also include obviously some time for question and answers, and show you a couple of current projects and some past projects.

If we're running low on time, we can go right to the question and answers.

Let me start with this slide that is a timeline of my professional history, starting when I was in college, and yes, John F. Kennedy was president then, and I'm now a partner emeritus at NBBJ, and it illustrates, I think, some of the topics that are worth talking about today.

I've had the good fortune, as you saw in the entering video, to speak to architecture and young professionals, and they seem to be very curious about my experience and my architectural career, so I plotted it out.

The important components here were, as was mentioned in the video, was the Air Force, joining NBBJ, building a practice, managing an office, and then becoming a global practice leader and pursuing international work.

I was building a practice while obviously working on projects 'cause you can't get away from the work if you expect to be able to talk to others about the work in other communities.

I had, in my experience of being a road warrior and a healthcare architect, I had cracked the California market.

After all, at that time, it was the 10th largest economy in the world and it was a good place to look for work.

And in managing that office, it was exactly the time when I pursued the international work.

NBBJ was already doing work internationally, primarily in China, and given my familiarity with having lived in Southeast Asia, having lived in Bangkok when I was in the Air Force, it was a natural place for me to go.

The other notations on this graphic are important to my career, and that's why they're noted.

Obviously, that building of practice was something that the introductory video talked about.

That was an important chapter in my life, and this chapter will focus on, obviously, the international work.

What you see me plotting, and it's kind of strange to lay your life out for the last 60 or so years, (chuckles) but the other notations are things that were important to me, like getting licensed and joining the AIA and later becoming a founding member of the American College of Healthcare Architects and becoming a Fellow.

And my observant was, all of those credentials really meant something in the international community and I needed to do those for me personally, and it also paid off in the opportunities that I had.

I spoke a little bit in the video about being overseas.

My entire career, as Ray said, was influenced greatly by the time I spent in Southeast Asia and in the military.

We were married, Christie and I, were just married a few months before we went overseas, so it was quite an adventure for a couple of newlyweds.

The map in the photo shows the bases that I served when I was in Thailand.

So while I was based in Bangkok, I had the opportunity to go all up country, down country, and serve the interest of the healthcare and medical community.

The group photo there clearly represents the role of being in any country where you have an ambassadorial relationship, and I and other American soldiers had that with the Royal Thai Air Force, and both Christie and I navigated that environment really well.

We learned a lot and we were good partners in that adventure.

This early adventure not only set the stage for future travel, but it greatly influenced obviously my decision to stay in healthcare, as was mentioned.

All right, I'm going to walk us through the doing of that work, or at least the pursuit of that work, and there are really five topics here.

They involve getting organized, they involve making it happen, and then sharing some lessons learned.

In the case of the circumstance that existed, opportunity really knocked.

You know, you never know, in the spirit of why working internationally, you never know why that would come about, and in some cases it walks in your front door.

It's not frequent, but it happens.

Also, working internationally is something that may happen because your clients take you there.

There's a lot of opportunity in terms of geography with diverse building types, and that diversity in building types and geography might just be that economic leveler for the economic rollercoaster in the domestic market.

Maybe you're ready for the adventure.

Sometimes the circumstance is you're following the money, and that was clearly the case in some of the countries that we, that I marketed in Southeast Asia.

You might be already out there and it's really the next place to go.

So my campaign as a global, as an architect was to look specifically at Southeast Asia.

It was the next place and it made a lot of sense.

China and Japan had already been explored by other members of the firm and we were actually seeing some payoff in China.

And at that time, if you recall me mentioning in the earlier graphic, the role of global healthcare practice leader, as that came into play, my knowledge of Southeast Asia really helped in playing out that role.

"Hey, I had conquered the California market, so why not Southeast Asia?"

(chuckles) was kind of my attitude at the time.

But then the next question was, what specific countries would you explore?

And in my case it was Thailand, of course, because I had some history there, and yet it was also Jakarta in Indonesia, Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia, and by the way, you don't visit those markets in Southeast Asia without visiting Singapore and Hong Kong.

Today in Asia, NBBJ has an office in Singapore and Hong Kong, so those aren't doing the work in other countries.

We're in those countries, doing that work.

Here was the little bit more on the campaign of doing work, in this case in Jakarta.

We knew Jakarta was hot business-wise at the time and we knew that other architects were there.

I have a funny story about spending, remembering spending 20 hours on the plane, getting to Jakarta, getting off the plane, opening up the newspaper, and there is an architect, Peter Pran, with the prime minister of the country, talking about a railway project.

The point is, Ellerbe Becket was already there.

And you find that when you go to other countries, of course, that other architects and architectural firms and designers are there, and that's an important thing to build off of, of course, and I have a little bit about that later.

So our research suggested it was a place to go and more learning was, and it was really worth learning about in making that visit.

The other fortunate thing is we had an Indonesian employee who was very helpful, became a member of our team, and then very helpful in helping us navigate the scene, and he's one of the people in the picture that you see.

Obviously, in the spirit of meeting people, is breaking bread in any country, and it was a wonderful experience.

Kuala Lumpur was kind of the same story.

It was really hopping and it was also a place, well, not unlike Jakarta, but it was also a place that was driven by the desire for iconic architecture, and so it really seemed worth exploring.

In the distance of one of these pictures is of course the Petronas Twin Towers that at that time were under construction and were the world's largest buildings between 1998 and 2004 at 88 stories.

A wonderful country, quite a family-centric, value-driven country, and it was really worth the visits.

We had somehow learned, I can't remember exactly how, but there was an opportunity in Vietnam.

Vietnam, the government there, was rapidly moving beyond the war years that were the reason I was in Southeast Asia in the late '60s.

They had been moving beyond that circumstance and were looking for foreign development.

Additionally, as it turned out, we had a Vietnamese employee who was most helpful in that navigation.

Here you see us meeting with some of the Vietnamese delegates in Hanoi, and we were in Ho Chi Minh City and Hanoi.

And of course, Bangkok.

For me, I was there earlier and most willing to go back, and it seemed natural for me to want to take on.

They're the most wonderful and generous people.

They were very aware of and appreciated the American healthcare system.

Even then there were many US-educated healthcare architects in the community.

Again, some very early shots of when I lived there and when I was back there, and these years were like '96, '97, and again, a delegation of us.

So what resources do you need to take a campaign on of working internationally?

Well, first you need someone to assist the opportunity and align the opportunities with, I'm sorry, to assess the opportunities and align those opportunities with the culture and skills of the firm, someone to make the arrangements.

You need someone who's gonna do the who, what, where, when, how, and we had someone to do that.

That was not me.

I had a different role and you'll hear about that in a minute.

We needed to have a person in-country that was aware, that was an architectural professional that could speak the technical language of architect and also the native language, and we had that opportunity.

You need a person or persons willing to pursue the opportunity.

In other words, you need someone who wants to do it.

You don't send people on those campaigns that do it reluctantly.

There's no question about that.

You need to have the financial resources to sustain that campaign.

You need to take the time to get the job done.

And the role that I played was the role of industry expert, hopefully, skilled in the art of persuasion and assessing the situation, you know, having been around enough to know, being light on your feet about what was presented in terms of opportunities.

So how did all of that go?

What really happened in visiting those countries?

Well, each of those visits were thrilling.

The environments were rich, teeming with activity.

Most everyone we asked to meet with us was willing to do so, and they were very generous with their time and they were very interested in what you had to say.

But I was sharing with Ray that I left, and also, my colleagues, when I'd come home, they'd say, "So, well, how did it go?"

And I'd say, "I left most of the meetings, quite frankly, not knowing whether I was buying or selling."

I grew up knowing very much where I was in that equation in the domestic markets, and I had a much more difficult time when I took that on internationally.

What you don't see in any of these photos is me signing any new contracts.

(chuckles) Just didn't happen.

And it wouldn't happen.

It would be unlikely to happen in your first visit.

The question was, what are the next steps and how should we take those next steps on?

Now, the good news of those early visits, of course, was we did get some work in the Philippines, and that's an illustration in the graphic or the picture on the right side, and a little later in Jakarta.

And we had, I mentioned, some of those earlier architects that were working in those countries.

We did recruit three seasoned architects and they joined NBBJ to work internationally.

And frankly, and actually, two of those people that I met in Asia so long ago are now leading our partners in leading our international work.

So the lessons learned.

What were the lessons learned of that experience?

Ray asked, and here's what it really came down to.

It was, frankly, it was so important to have people of those countries with you who knew what we were all about culturally and of course knew the culture of those countries, and that was most helpful.

In that case, we had someone, an architect, who was Vietnamese and another that was Indonesian.

So we were very lucky to have that.

I think I underappreciated the importance of the moment of those visits, and that was a lesson learned for me, and there's no question about it.

Now, I would also say, if one measures success by winning the prize, which of course was the ultimate goal, at least that had been my experience when I was conquering California or the West Coast, you tend to not be patient with the process, and you can't do that.

At least my lesson learned was it's not about winning the prize if you're gonna lose having the patience for the process 'cause it takes time.

Some of the leads we took on were frankly wild goose chases.

There's no question about that, but that's what a scout does.

That's part of what it means to be that explorer, and I happened to be the person at that time, one of the people at that time, whose responsibility was to go do that exploring.

Given other responsibilities, the other lessons learned was you tend to focus on the most pressing matter and that may not be doing that international work.

And in some ways what happened was, that opportunity faded away.

There was just more pressing concerns.

It's common in American domestic marketing that it takes at least five interactions before the sell.

That's statistics I've heard time and again.

It's even longer in Asia, and we eventually got there because we realized that we made that investment.

But from my visit, obviously, that was yet to be done.

In conclusion, Jakarta, for us, needed more time and attention as did Kuala Lumpur, and that time and attention now has paid off.

At that time, Vietnam didn't seem to understand the economics of development, and, frankly, then, we didn't have any reason to go any further.

Today we're doing work in Vietnam, but it's with clients who have taken us there.

Remember, I mentioned the opportunity of people taking you there.

Here's what was most revealing about Thailand, and because I knew the most about Thailand going into that company, or country.

Thailand, while having been occasionally occupied by foreigners, clearly they were in World War II, for example, it's never been conquered, and in a sense I felt that same sensation.

It seemed to be true in our presence as well.

We were occupiers in a sense, but they didn't really seem to to need us because they were so close to the American experience already and had so many wonderful, trained architects there.

I listed in the spirit of responding to a few of the seeded questions that Ray asked me, and I added a few on my own, I thought we could go through this.

What's the benefit of working internationally?

What do the other countries want from a design firm?

How do design firms approach partnering?

What's the impact of COVID and what's the impact of world politics?

First of all, we looked at this earlier, and it was under the remarks of why work internationally, but this is more about the rewards of working internationally.

To the person that I spoke to, of my colleagues' and my own experience, it gives you a much broader and much more, a broader view of the world.

It brings wonderful and interesting opportunities.

There's no question about that.

And the other surprising thing is now, today, we're finding that the international market makes our domestic work better, because, frankly, some of our international clients are more demanding than some of our domestic clients in terms of the quality of the product.

And so it's making us better architects, and it's making, and it's because of the demands of those countries, which is the international work.

What do other countries want from design firms?

They want success by association.

They're very interested in who we work for and that is valued in other countries.

It's that success by association.

Other countries want fresh ideas and innovation.

They want the benefit from a shared work experience.

They want our ideas, but they also wanna learn by doing, in that old phrase, they want to be with you side by side, doing that work.

Global diversity brings iconic thinking because, as the case of some of these huge, large, iconic buildings that are in Asia, it just makes all the work better for all of us.

USA science sells in other countries, and you can see on my notes there, the comment about free service.

Well, contract terms matter (chuckles) in those countries.

You wanna make sure you understand the rules of engagement.

Well, what about partnering?

Now, partnering is interesting and can be interpreted in two ways.

First, it has to do with assembling teams necessary to do the work.

But I think the question here in the international market is partnering in Asia is about sharing that work and sharing that work is a way of life.

Currently, NBBJ is doing work in China, Korea, Jakarta, and they're all in partnering relationships, and that work, NBBJ typically takes the projects through DD and the local design institutes are responsible for CD and CA, while, obviously, the design architect, in our case, we would have some role of observation of how those things were being done in those phases.

What's the impact of world politics?

I'm sorry, what's the impact of COVID?

Well, I just heard an unfortunate story of one of our principals at NBBJ who was on vacation in Los Angeles with his family when COVID broke out, and he was unable to return to his home, because he was in our Shanghai office, for almost two years.

In fact, when I talked to him the other day, he was in Shanghai, but he is now living and working out of LA.

And what's the impact of world politics?

Well, frankly, politics matter and we're not doing any work in Russia, and there are some strained relationships in China these days around some of the political dynamics.

The international practice today.

I'd like to think that the work that we did, that is being done today, was somehow possible by the work that I and others did 30 years ago.

And as I said, I talked to a few of the other principals and partners, and it's clear to me that the international practice is alive and well, and they affirm that, obviously, while we weren't sure we were getting as far as we'd like to with some of those visits, that work long ago really did matter.

So here are some of our NBBJ's global design firms, and more and more of these firms are taking us and we're willing to go wherever they want to go.

As I mentioned, we're doing work in China, Korea, Jakarta, Ho Chi Minh City, and Singapore.

And by the way, what I learned from talking to my colleagues is that Singapore is now the new Hong Kong, and that is, of course, interesting because of the politics.

Here are a few projects that I just wanted to show you, some work that we're doing in Korea, some work, another project in Korea.

The Koreans have a very high regard for technology and, again, this is a client, these are clients and this is a country that pushes you when it comes to iconic design and high technology.

This project is in Singapore.

It's built.

It's been built for some time.

The Sail in Singapore.

Some work in China.

And while this, my presentation, is focusing on Southeast Asia and Asia, we are working and have worked other places.

Did a telecommunications company in Norway, Telenor.

Doing some work in Europe as well, in this case in the United Kingdom, out of the office overseas.

This is a healthcare project in New York.

A longtime client, Seattle Children's, first project I worked on when I was at NBBJ, doing window and door details some long time ago.

And work in New Orleans.

Again, just giving you a little taste of the healthcare work.

We're doing work at UCSF.

And one of my long-term clients, Loma Linda University Medical Center in Loma Linda, California.

I'm ready to open it up for questions.

That's the extent of my remarks.

I hope I didn't, it looks, I guess we still have time.

So what's my next step here, Ray?

- It was terrific.

I appreciate the ground that you were able to cover quickly and concisely.

That was fantastic to hear the stories.

John, we've got an audience here of people who may very well be in their careers among the most mobile of generations of architects that we've ever seen.

As they contemplate a career that has a high likelihood of international activity, what would you say to them about preparing to work internationally?

What are the skillsets?

What are the subject matters where expertise would be of greatest value?

- Well, you know, it's interesting, Ray, today, when I think of the technology that exists, that if you look at when I was over there, maybe the technology, well, the internet was brand new, if at all.

We were still all standing around the fax machine and looking at that and saying, well, what a marvel that was.

I think there's technical skillsets that are important, but, really, it's the human side of the equation that I think is most important, is that, what I like most about our young people today is they're actually much more worldly than my generation was to start out, and I think that's gonna make it easier for them.

I had a great respect for the countries that I was visiting and an appreciation, and quite an eye-opening that there was much about those countries that were just as important to those people as they were to me and what I saw in our country.

The idea of breaking bread together, the idea of making friends, I think, is still so important.

The idea of being fair.

So there's a lot of value systems that I think are important and it's something that I think you have to want to do, and I would encourage any young person that whatever they find as their pathway to our profession, there's a place for everybody and there's an opportunity for their skills and personalities to excel, whether you're an extrovert or an introvert.

So I hope that helps.

I think they're probably halfway on.

As I get to see the young people today, they're so talented, kind of coming out of the blocks of the race, that I'm guessing that most of them would be well-prepared to work internationally.

If they can speak the language or other languages, that's even more important, I think.

And so I hope that helps.

What else?

- Well, I appreciate that perspective, John, and I wanna be careful here not to use the word mistake, but as you look back at your prospecting and business development ventures, what could you tell us you, in retrospect, could have handled differently, or what were the big learning points that you maybe took away from experiences that you had hoped could have gone differently?

- Well, I think that we didn't plan as thoroughly as we should have.

I think there was a rush to get on with it without having fully thought through where the real opportunities were and weren't.

On the other hand, you could argue that just getting over there allowed you, you don't know what you don't know.

So you had the opportunity to see some things unfold in front of you.

One of the things I mentioned is that we had organized, we had organized ourself to first think about who we wanted to visit and what those opportunities were.

So I had a marketing associate who took on the responsibility to find those leads, what you and I today would call leads.

And their measurement of that process was the more the merrier.

My measurement of that process was there was only so many leads you could take on.

Which one were gonna be most fruitful?

So I think in general we could have done a better job of having thought through that before we actually jumped in the lake, so to speak.

On the other hand, as I said, things came up that you weren't, you just wouldn't have thought about ahead of time anyway.

The other thing is sticking with it, and in my particular case, if I didn't mention it in the earlier graphic, but that graphic where I actually plotted out my life for the last 50 or 60 years, you saw a lot of overlapping lines, or you saw a lot of lines that suggested you were doing a lot of things at the same time.

Be cautious of that.

As a global practice leader at the time, you're also doing other things.

You still have a domestic practice that you're trying to work in.

And I think it was, it may have been trying to take on a little too much.

I think that that would be one of my aha's, to say, you know, or not necessarily not taking on, but realizing that it wasn't sustainable.

There's a difference between going some place and doing something and getting something out of it.

But as I said, where do you go from there?

What's the next steps?

And those next steps, fortunately, were, because of some of the things that we were able to do, is get some other people involved and pass that baton.

So if you can't do it yourself, you better know what those next steps are and you better have somebody to take advantage of that investment, because if you go and try and tell somebody about your skills and your talents, and then you're not back again, what does that really say?

And I think that was one of the lessons learned.

- Interesting point.

Thank you.

John, are there questions here in the audience, online?

'Cause I have plenty for John (chuckles) if there aren't.

I just didn't want to take everyone's time.

John, a question that some would perhaps like to know, you're in Seattle and somebody tells you to go to find work in Southeast Asia.

What did you do before you got on the plane?

How do you find someone to meet with, a facility that may be looking for work, a health system, if there are such things in that part of the world when you were looking, how did you decide, how did you build an itinerary for after the plane landed?

- Good question.

Well, first of all, because we had some experience in China and because, when you're in that part of the world, China and Japan actually, and we were doing work in China before I even started to do my exploration, and we weren't doing any work in Japan.

Japan had a different way of looking at talents coming from the US.

We had people who had some experience of making those trips.

And like I said, you don't make those trips typically without making more than one or two stops.

If you go that far, at that time which seemed so far away, if you go that far, you look at where is it that you want to go.

So we knew strategically ahead of time that if we're gonna go to Thailand, and I knew what that meant to take on, although (chuckles) when I first went, it was three stops across the globe, now you can go nonstop, but you know what that entailed, and while you're there, you better be, it makes sense to say, "What's the opportunity in other countries?"

Now, remember I said that we thought we had an opportunity in Vietnam and that was really one of the reasons we were going, and we thought we had an opportunity there, which didn't turn out to be what we thought it was.

The best information at the time suggested it was worth going.

When you get there, you get your feet on the ground, you see the situation, you understand the dynamics, it can be different.

So the preparation work was, yes, deciding where it was you were gonna go.

So we knew we were gonna hit Jakarta or, you know, Malaysia and Indonesia, and then those cities were essentially, that's Jakarta and Kuala Lumpur, Thailand, Vietnam.

We discounted some other countries because we didn't see any opportunity there, either because of the political situation or the domestic situation of the talent that was already there.

So I think we did planning, well, we did do planning.

I don't think we took it as far as we could have.

Today, I think, I'm guessing, that is easier to do because the world is so much smaller.

Technology allows us to do things.

In today's world, the other thing, it would be unacceptable in my generation to think that you were gonna go, that you were going to pick up a phone and talk to somebody and get work that way.

You needed to be face to face.

Today what I'm hearing is that we have clients that find it perfectly acceptable that all our interactions are Zoom, rather than having any face-to-face meetings.

I can imagine that not every culture or country feels that way, but there are those who do.

And I now know that architects are being interviewed for projects not only domestically but internationally over Zoom, and making the decision on encounters just like this, of how you come across as a talking head in a studio.

You know, I mean, it's just interesting.

So the students are probably more aware of how to do that as they start in their career than clearly, you know, I would've known what to do.

But the opportunities now to communicate in different ways, not necessarily always being face to face, are tremendous and likely to be a real opportunity.

So you probably can search a lot more now over the internet than having to just get on a plane and experience.

Nothing beats getting on the plane and having that face-to-face experience, but there's other ways of getting information.

- Well, John, our time is gone, but it sure was fun having you.

I appreciate you joining us.

A very, very distinguished career, lots of wonderful lessons, and we appreciate you sharing some of those with us.

Thanks so much.

(audience applauding) - Thank you.

Bye-Bye.